Revelation Internal Evidence for Late Date.

[Just The Facts]

Hi All

Well I am sure I will get an earful on this one….. at this….. what seems a mainly Preterist site.

Revelation itself disproves the Early date of pre 70 AD.

The use of the Term soon to come or I come Quickly as proof of the early date falls short by the very standard you put to it.

Preterists believe that Judgement day is still to come yet John records this

Rv 21:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

There is judgement day I guess it must have happened by 70 AD after all…… he says I come quickly …………surely he didn't mean over 2,000 years away. I say that with all the scepticism I can get into a sentence.

Let us forget such phrases and let us look at what is being said in terms of events.

The best place for that is in Chapter 12. Because we have some events I think ALMOST everyone will agree has Happened and we all know when..

Rv 12:5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is very clearly Jesus. So at this point we are at about 27 AD

Verse 7 then goes back in Time again To War in heaven and Satan being Cast Down to Earth which we also know when This was.

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So here is Satan falling from Heaven after the 70 return To Jesus having the Power to drive out Demons who are Satan's workers.

So let us Continue

11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Well here are the Apostles or those same 70 being put to death. Notice it says love NOT their Lives it does not say and THEY WILL NOT……….It says DID NOT. Clearly this event has already happened as John is being showed the vision this is a recap of what has gone on up to the vision. Many of the 70 in fact most were killed by the Jews not the Romans.

13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So here Satan or The Dragon Persecutes the Woman Who is the twelve Tribes of Israel or some would say The True Church the true Olive Tree.

Well we know that the Romans went after the Jewish Nation starting in about 66 AD so this is about 66AD.

14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

This is the destruction of Jerusalem as the Saints or the Woman flee from the Dragon Jerusalem is destroyed in a flood.

Daniel 9: Confirms this

26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

It is no coincidence that Jesus uses the same words in both of these prophesises. When we Trust the words of the one who wrote the book we can see where we are and it is 70 AD. This whole section of Revelation is very clearly in the PAST TENSE. Lets Continue.

16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth

Well Satan's attempts to use Rome to destroy the Truth fail and the Earth swallows up the flood and she and her remnant escape into the people's of the Empire they are a wash and everywhere.

Well Satan is not impressed

Rv 12: 17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So now Satan goes after Christianity. This again starts in about 67 AD but is after most of the 70 have been killed. This is more then just Nero's one persecution this is still in the past tense and includes 30 years of persecution and still more TO COME all the way to the end of the Saints.

When we take the Chapter Title out of Rev and run 12 and 13 together we can see the First Beast of Rev 13 is very clearly Rome..

[17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. [1]And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.

Here we see Satan using Rome to chase down Christianity we are Told later that he will overcome the saints. This indeed does happen

This past Tense takes a Turn in Chapter 13 verse

[7] Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, [8] and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

It then goes on to talk about the False Kingdom of God that would rise up out of the Earth Appearing to be the kingdom of God but speaking like Satan.

Revelation was clearly written after all the Saints but John were killed this as we have seen takes us far past the date of 70 AD which is toted as the return of Jesus by Preterists.

[Solly]

Dons tin hat, and heads for the bunker.

INCOMING!!

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

:egad: look out below!!!

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Well what a surprise so everyone agrees with me who would have thought.

Now that we have that out of the way we can discuss other errors in the preterist doctrine. (smile)

[Solly]

yes, let's start on matthew 24

[Just The Facts]

Hi Solly

yes let do just that.

Let us look at the Two question nature of this chapter?

3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Question #1 = When shall the temple be destroyed.

Question #2 - What shall be the sign of your coming and the end of the world.

Now I am not the one who reveals and you are not the one who reveals there is only one who reveals and that is Jesus he alone opens the seals and explains the meaning there in.

So let us see what Jesus says.

4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Here Jesus tells them that The First thing to happen is false Christians saying oh you are right jesus is Lord. Then there will be wars and rumours of war and that all this must happen (destruction of temple) but the end is not yet.

This saying "the End is Not Yet" is a common tie in for anyone who trusts the word of the Lamb.

Now I have said that what" must happen" and the destruction of the Temple are the same thing………… so now I will provide the verses of Jesus words to back this up for my words mean nothing.

Let us look at Daniel 11:

[32] He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant; (those seduced are the Pharisees they excepted Roman images in the temple halls and aloud Rome to pick the High Priest) but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.[33] And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days. (here are the Apostles notice they are to be burned this was something reserved for Christians)[34] When they fall, they shall receive a little help. (this is the Holy Spirit the Helper) And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; (here is the people saying Jesus is Christ false Christians as Jesus said) [35] and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, until the time of the end, (here are the Saints given White robes RV 6 Fifth seal) for it is yet for the time appointed.

So once again Jesus confirms THE END IS NOT YET.

The combining of the destruction of the Temple and Jesus second coming is not based in scripture in Jesus words it is based in the Doctrines of men. Follow the Lamb ……..the Word.

Jesus then goes on to describe what would happen after all the saints are killed. Back to Matthew 24:

7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8: All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Here we have the Christian persecutions of 67 AD right through to the end in 31 AD.

Then perhaps Jesus most telling part of this prophecy he tells us when Christian Love will turn Cold.

10: And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Here is also the Time spoken of in Timm and accumulating teachers to suit iching ears and wandering to Myths.

So when Did Christian love go cold . I f one studies history you will see it was at the end of the Persecutions with in a few years Christians where at war with each other over Doctrine blood shed in the picking of New Bishops it is a sad ,sad chapter in Christian History it marks then end of Christians being know by the love they had for all.

Well I will stop there but I think you get the idea.

This prophecy is how God keeps his Word. The belief that God tells us nothing of events on Earth for 2,00 year goes against his word in Amos 3:

7: Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.


All has been revealed in advance as promised IF YOU FOLLOW THE LAMB…….THE WORD.

[kofh2u]

As I puzzle over Matt 24, I am aware that the oil in my lamp is actually from the olive trees mentioned By Zechariah. In this, that woman who flees the dragon and his flood, causes a flicker in the fire by which I note a symbolism. She wears a crown of twelve jewels, but I am confused t
at she is vlothed in the Sun and the Moon?

Does your insight afford the translations of these symbols?

[Just The Facts]

Hi kofh2u

Well I think the answer lies here

Since the Woman is THE TRUE OLIVE TREE not a Nation as one thinks of it but rather a body of believers.

This body of believers receives God's grace and Glory, we wear God as it were, we clothe ourselves in God or as the word says in the Sun.

Ps:84:11: For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory:

Eph: 6[13] Therefore take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, [15] and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace;
[16] besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one.

The Kingdom or the promise is seen as the moon.

Psalms 89: 34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35: Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

So the moon stands as a faithful Witness to Gods promise that he will fulfil the promise to Judah or David. and Jacob

[24] "Have you not observed what these people are saying, `The LORD has rejected the two families which he chose'? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight. [25] Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the ordinances of heaven and earth, [26] then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his descendants to rule over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes, and will have mercy upon them."


This is the Woman Clothed in God and standing on the Promise. This is the True Olive Tree.

[Just The Facts]

Hi all

So since no one put up any scripture to support a early date .............................we all agree that Rev was written in 96AD

And there for CAN NOT be about Jerusalem in 70 AD.

[spiritmech]

Verse 7 then goes back in Time again To War in heaven and Satan being Cast Down to Earth which we also know when This was.

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So here is Satan falling from Heaven after the 70 return To Jesus having the Power to drive out Demons who are Satan's workers.

I'm not sure where you get that Satan fell down from Heaven after AD70 while pointing to Luke. You're going to have to do a little more than that. If you're going to quote that verse you're going to have to explain why Satan didn't fall from heaven when Jesus was on the earth.

Steve

[Just The Facts]

Hi Spirit

What are you talking about???????????????????????????????????? Satan clearly fell from heaven while Jesus was on the Earth....................beforethe cross.

So what you are saying is I have to do better than jesus Plain words.

Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So Jesus saying it happened when the 70 went out is just a lie..............................You are right how could I ever have been sooooooooo stupid to believe jesus plain words.

Perhaps you have a doctrine of Men I can become lost in. (smile)

[Sheepdog]

:egad: look out below!!!

THE FLIPPER! :lmbo:

i haven't seen that in ages :lol:

[Sheepdog]

BTW, this isn't a "mainly Preterist site" nor is it a "mainly Open Theist site" (as Matt Slick seems to think... sorry, i digress). We have many mods who are Preterists, but not everyone. Bill the Cat is a dispie and ther are a few others who are outspoken futurists. but we try not to bias too bady on what we consider disputable doctrines within Christianity.

i am a Preterist (and not an Open Theist, in case you were wondering). But i have to admit i have not done sufficient study on Revelation to address most of the issues you raise. i'll leave it to see if others jump in and argue for an early date.

[Terral]

Just the Facts:
Just the Facts >> There is judgement day I guess it must have happened by 70 AD after all…… he says I come quickly …………surely he didn't mean over 2,000 years away. I say that with all the scepticism I can get into a sentence.
No sir. Your commentary is evidence that folks can twist a single verse of Scripture into saying anything. What does Peter say about the day of the Lord and the Judgment? Let’s not take one verse, but allow Scripture to give the true context:

“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!”
Peter and John (in Revelation) are the only two writers of the New Testament to use the phrase ‘a thousand years.’ That phrase appears only here and in Revelation 20, where John also describes this same Judgment Day. John gives an overview from the perspective of Satan being chained (Rev. 20:2) then loosed at the “when the thousand years are completed” (Rev. 20:7). He then goes right into describing the same Judgment.

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds . . .”
Jesus Christ describes His coming in glory (Matt. 24:30) at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3) for this very same Judgment in the chapter following Matthew 24.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.”
Christ’s ‘coming’ in His glory (Matt. 24:30) happens just prior to the final Judgment Peter and John are describing at the END of the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8) of the ‘day of the Lord.’ 2Pet. 3:10. We are still living in the days of the ‘revelation of the mystery’ (Rom. 16:25) where the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) and this ‘mystery’ church’ (Eph. 5:32) is being built to maturity. Eph. 4:11-13. Only after our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) does the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) even begin. The ‘time’ from Rev. 1:10 to 20:11-15 is the thousand year (Rev. 20:5) ‘day of the Lord.’ The Preterist interpretation that all of this was fulfilled in 70 Ad is not accurate, because this current ‘heaven and earth’ are still here, and have not been destroyed with intense heat. To believe the teachings of that Theology, one must ignore practically everything written in Scripture and give the terms new meanings while also changing the context. Practically all of OT and NT ‘Prophecy’ has yet to be fulfilled, and those are Just the Facts.


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Just the Facts >> What are you talking about?? Satan clearly fell from heaven while Jesus was on the Earth....................before the cross. So what you are saying is I have to do better than JesusPlain words. Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

No sir. Satan’s fall occurred long before Genesis 2, where the Serpent is in the garden with Adam. The prophecy of the Lord God against him was made in Genesis 3.

“And I will put enmity between you [ Serpent ] and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."


“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.”
Jesus Christ had glory with the Father before the world was. John 17:5. He saw the fall of Satan long before incarnating in the world as our Lord Jesus Christ.


"You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering . . . You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, and you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane from the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.”

In Christ,

Terral

[Just The Facts]

Hi Sheep

Well then this site is changing...............for the most part pretrism is the centre piece of this site.

The Founder is preterist...............and as you pointed out so are the majority of the Mods.

There is also a few "professors" of the doctrine here as well.

The reality is even the best trained preterist will hit a brick wall when confronted with the Truth. Such as shown in this thread. I find Preterist are well studied and when dealing with your average futurist bear that is all they need to confuse the issues.........me on the other hand I too am well studied I know all the History read all the writings...................so such tactics fall short with me. Ironically I was invited to this Board over this very subject where I was assured I would find preterist who could back their understanding with scripture……….but alas…….there is none with the conviction in their belief necessary to stand against these truths..

That is why they avoid this thread like the plague....................why show up and prove your whole doctrine and belief structure wrong in one foul swoop...............why not just avoid the whole thing and stay in the clouds of illusion.

[Just The Facts]

Hi Terral


Ezekiel does not say he was cast out of heaven and fell to Earth.............do not deny jesus plain words.


I think you need to read my post again I am not a preterist and the quote you did of me .was.................sarcasm directed at preterism.

"judgement day" as it is called is 1,000 years plus a season.................At the beginning of "Judgement day is the First Resurrection .............first the saved

1Pt:4:17: For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

or as psalms says .................................the morning light

Ps:37:6: And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgement as the noonday.

Then as Psalms say Judgement later in the day.

So first the righteous.....................followed by 1,000 years of peace and the binding of Satan....................then when the 1,000 years and the season are over .........................the devil and the rest of the dead.

[Sheepdog]

Hi Sheep

Well then this site is changing...............for the most part pretrism is the centre piece of this site.

how active have you been here anyways? Preterism is by no means "the center piece" of TWeb.

The Founder is preterist...............

The Founder! :lmbo:

which one? because three people actually founded TWeb, and to my knowledge Dee Dee is the only one of them which is an outspoken Preterist.

...and as you pointed out so are the majority of the Mods.

where do you get this "majority of the mods" figure? i only said many, and i wouldn't go as far as saying the "majority."

boy, you just aren't living up to your namesake.

The reality is even the best trained preterist will hit a brick wall when confronted with the Truth. Such as shown in this thread.

ahh! so you have a patent on The Truth i see? maybe the reason other Preterists haven't interacted in this thread is because they don't like presumptive, cocky little people like yourself. Why waste the time? To be honest, i don't care to interact with you anymore myself.


I find Preterist are well studied and when dealing with your average futurist bear that is all they need to confuse the issues.........me on the other hand I too am well studied I know all the History read all the writings...................so such tactics fall short with me.

ahh, so you are the epitome of the TruthTM? :lol: please.

Ironically I was invited to this Board over this very subject where I was assured I would find preterist who could back their understanding with scripture……….but alas…….there is none with the conviction in their belief necessary to stand against these truths..

or they see you as the annoying little troller that you are.

That is why they avoid this thread like the plague....................

they avoid this thread because contemptuous people like youself are a plague in the church.

why show up and prove your whole doctrine and belief structure wrong in one foul swoop...............why not just avoid the whole thing and stay in the clouds of illusion.

:ahem: yes! because we all know that little old Just the Facts on some discussion board somewhere on the internet has refuted all there is to Preterism. :sigh2:

i had a feeling posting in this thread was a waste of time. but i figured being diplomatic might have been a decent change in pace.

[Terral]

Hi Terral
Facts >> Ezekiel does not say he was cast out of heaven and fell to Earth.............do not deny jesus plain words.
Ezekiel did not say anything, but the ‘word of the Lord’ came to him. Eze. 28:11. The account of these ‘past’ events continues:

"By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever."'"
When God ‘cast’ him out, where do you think his sorry behind landed? You are proving my point that to be a Preterist one must turn a blind eye to most everything in Scripture and read one verse at a time in a different context. BTW, I am not trying to convince you of anything. Accepting false doctrine blinds folks to seeing the truth (2Thes. 2:10-12). My words are for the benefit of the third party reader, so he does not fall face first into the same ditch.
Facts >> I think you need to read my post again I am not a preterist and the quote you did of me . was.................sarcasm directed at preterism.
Perhaps you should be more serious about debating these topics. Your name appears at the top of my post, because we have points of disagreement. I am addressing the ‘point’ of the topic and not the ‘person’ named whose name appears at the top. The 70 Ad Judgment is a doctrine from the Preterists.
Facts >> "judgement day" as it is called is 1,000 years plus a season.................At the beginning of "Judgement day is the First Resurrection .............first the saved 1Pt:4:17: For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Plus a season? Heh. Your Scriptural reference in no way speaks to your assertion. And Psalms has application if Peter says so, and not by your authority. David is not giving a precise announcement about the timing of the Judgment like Peter and John. You cannot use Psalms to refute Peter’s NT prophesy.
Facts >> So first the righteous.....................followed by 1,000 years of peace and the binding of Satan....................then when the 1,000 years are over .........................the rest of the dead.
This is the first thing you have written that makes any ‘Biblical’ sense. The judgment of the members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) is described by Paul (2Cor. 5:10) as when the ‘day of Christ’ is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. This is why he writes about “who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1Cor. 1:8. Therefore, our judgment for works occurs at the very start of the “Lord’s day.” Rev. 1:10. The final judgment of Peter and John occurs a thousand years later, at the ‘end’ of the same “Lord’s day” (Rev. 20:10-15).

In Christ,

Terral

[Just The Facts]

Hi Terel

I am just typing up a response to you and I will talk about the verses in Isaiah.




Hi Sheep


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where do you get this "majority of the mods" figure? i only said many, and i wouldn't go as far as saying the "majority."

boy, you just aren't living up to your namesake.

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Why I got it from you …….you tsated that there was a couple of futurists and Many preterists………………..what do you think me stupid that you would now question that many compared to a couple IS A MAJORITY. PLEASE …TWIST TWIST TWIST


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Quote of JTF
The reality is even the best trained preterist will hit a brick wall when confronted with the Truth. Such as shown in this thread.
EndJTF

ahh! so you have a patent on The Truth i see? maybe the reason other Preterists haven't interacted in this thread is because they don't like presumptive, cocky little people like yourself. Why waste the time? To be honest, i don't care to interact with you anymore myself.

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Where did I say I have a patent on the Truth ……………………..wow talk about putting words in my mouth…………………………


As far as the site owner goes I can only go by what was told to me in the email that invited me here when the site started. And that was Theology Web was mainly a Preterist site where I could talk to well educated preterist teachers.

So as far as your baseless accusation I am presumptuous …………………..well perhaps if you knew what you were speaking about I might be offended but since you have no clue I do not care.

Am I bold with the Truth that I have been shown .Yes I am ………….put up scripture and show me I have been misled ………………………You hurling accusations at me only serves to show you have no scripture to show this in error

I only Follow Scripture so do not bother posting miles of quotes of your accumulated teachers because I can find just as many that say the exact opposite.


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ahh, so you are the epitome of the TruthTM? please.

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No What I was saying That preterist always try and change the subject when they can not show their doctrine to be true……just like you are doing here not talking about the Truth of Scripture instead denial and illusion………………I do not fall prey to such lame tactics stick to the subject at hand or do not post in the thread.


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or they see you as the annoying little troller that you are.
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Yes that is another common preterist Tactic to try insulting the person so that they will be offended and not post the Truth anymore.

Wow you are a real preterist aren’t you……..Stick to the Thread topic or so not post.


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they avoid this thread because contemptuous people like youself are a plague in the church.

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No they avoid this thread because they do not wish to confront the Truth…………………………..Keep the insults coming very Christian of you…………………………another common trait I have noticed.…………………….The only plague in the Church is all the tombs that are white on the outside but give them a poke and their true dark and hateful nature shines through

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Yes! because we all know that little old Just the Facts on some discussion board somewhere on the internet has refuted all there is to Preterism. :sigh2:

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No I have shown that revelation was written in 96AD which was the purpose of this thread to discuss the date of Revelation…………………if you had the ability to stay on subject instead of trying to derail the course with of the subject comments about what kind of site this is………….and countless personal attacks then I would be happy to discuss the subject with you and look at any verses you wish to bring forth.

So yes if you do not wish to discuss the subject at hand with out countless personal attack then please continue on your merry little way…………………

[Just The Facts]

Hi terral

Sorry I thought you were saying I was a preterist...i find the format of this site hard to get use to so much excess/ uneeded data everywhere

Everything I say makes sense (smile)

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Plus a season? Heh. Your Scriptural reference in no way speaks to your assertion.

End Quote

No....it is in scripture or I would not have said it.

3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Where he was cast out of was from the Holy jerusalem in Heaven....................because as we read in Job Satan can still go before the Divine Council............The Heavenly Council is where the Sons Of god met to discuss each of their Nations on Earth as Each Nation had an Angel as its prince at the heavenly council

Job:1:6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job:2:1: Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

So the Only thing Satan was cast out of in Isaiah was his seat at the council. In This case the Nation is Phoenicia and the city is Tyre that is who this Satan is prince of.

"By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever."'"

In rev 12 he is cast out from heaven and can no longer go before the throne of God. One is cast out of the Council the Other is cast out of Heaven

Isaiah makes it clear that after a Time tyre would move to Asia Minor and then spread around the World as the Whore and her Many Harlot Daughters.

First over to Kittam which was Asia Minor or ..the home of the seven churches………………

Isaiah 23:12: And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim;

Then to the Whole World

17: And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Notice it says SHALL COMMIT…………………..now look in Rev 17:

2: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

There is the Whore of Tyre after she moved to Asia minor and Then Spread over the Whole World. Just as Isaiah had Prophesied.

[spiritmech]

"i find the format of this site hard to get use to so much excess/ uneeded data everywhere"

This coming from a guy who doesn't even use a spell checker or follow any standard rules of grammar. LOL Your posts are almost impossible to read, bro.
Steve

[dizzle]

Well then this site is changing...............for the most part pretrism is the centre piece of this site.

Since when? When the site started I went out of my way to invite numerous futurists here so that would not be the case. Rusty Entrenkin of Things to Come will tell you that is the case.


The Founder is preterist.............

Who is this singular founder? Me? I am NOT THE founder. I have two partner who are owners, and "founded" this site with the assistance of numerous persons, some of whom are still here in leadership. I don't want to name a bunch of names at the risk of my bad memory - but without the work of others such as Jaltus, GrayPilgrim, EM7, Pilgrim in the beginning this site would not be what it is. None of those folks are preterists. It was always our passion to have a site that didn't favour strongly one particular view as we came from a site that did so, and didn't care for that approach. And the majority of mods are not preterist. The majority are futurist - and some were futurist when they started but as a result of our terrible arguments became convinced or are becoming convinced as they read them.

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I do use a spell checker......................perhaps you do not realise I am Canadian and spell many words different. I am also severely dyslexic so yes my grammar is hard to understand.....please forgive me I will try and makes things clearer.

I find the scripture boxes and quote boxes very hard to get use to.

Anything to post on topic?

[Just The Facts]

Hi Dee dee

If you will recall we met at Christianity.com....where we were talking about the date of Rev.

you invited me to a site you had started.............that is as you said to me at the time.......I do not think you were trying to claim all credit it was just what was said in a small talk conversation there was no great boast................................ oh this is my site or anything of the sort just why not come to this site I started ........I fail to see why this comment is making such a big stink ..did I ruffle someone's feathers.

You stated that there were many schooled preterists here who could shed light on the date of Rev. you named a few which I can not remember all of them now ……………………….one was a guy named Adam…………………who posted in my first thread insulted me in the first line and then never posted again.

Well none have posted their verses or shown me one single thing that points to the late date.

I have had people try and reference Matt like it was the key .....I addressed their points..........No one else has made any points ..except another futurist.

So it would seem to me that no one posts because they can not refute what has been stated…………

The Internal evidence is clear revelation was written after the Fall of Jerusalem ……..many years after and revelation is in no way shape or form about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD …………..Jerusalem is only in a historical recap in chapter 12:

[dizzle]

Hi Dee dee

Hey there.


If you will recall we met at Christianity.com....where we were talking about the date of Rev.

you invited me to a site you had started.............that is as you said to me at the time.......I do not think you were trying to claim all credit it was just what was said in a small talk conversation there was no great boast................................ oh this is my site or anything of the sort just why not come to this site I started ........I fail to see why this comment is making such a big stink ..did I ruffle someone's feathers.

I couldn't place where we met, but now I remember. I posted a link to here at Christianity.com in a conversation since they allow that. I wasn't suggesting that you thought I was trying to claim credit - I just like to make sure that the credit goes where it belongs. I am the most visible face out of ownership here, but out of us three, I am the least important - the true talent lies with my two partners. The reason the comment struck a nerve is because it is exactly what we don't want to be. Some of us have felt mistreated in the past at some sites where one view was the "in" view and all others were the "out" one within orthodox parameters - and we don't want that here. That is all. And while you might have known what youmeant, others reading may have gotten a false impression is all. Carry on.

[Just The Facts]

Hi Dee Dee

i think it is hard to avoid........christianity.com is a fundy site................................christianforums.com is mainly Catholic with a large Orthodox group. Theology web has always seemed more preterist populated. Perhaps that is just because so many forums ban preterists.

Preterist ...........fundy.....Catholic....................matters not to me.............put up scripture to show your point ......................scripture is all that matters. I will discuss all of these issues civilly with anyone who cares to put up scripture and treat me civilly .........I have a sharp tongue in debate..............but as you are aware I am also willing to see when I have gone too far and step back and act according to proper adequate.

Scripture please because I Follow the Lamb where ever he goes.

[dizzle]

Hey JTF - I think you are confusing orthodox preterists with hyperpreterists. Anyways you are correct that this forum has more orthodox preterists than most. I will grant you that. Just so that you know that the ownership is not all preterist, and the leadership is not mainly preterist. Just wanted to clear that up.

[studyhound]

Hi All

Well I am sure I will get an earful on this one….. at this….. what seems a mainly Preterist site.


Nice way to start off playing the martyr.




The use of the Term soon to come or I come Quickly as proof of the early date falls short by the very standard you put to it.

Preterists believe that Judgement day is still to come yet John records this


That is true all believers

Rv 21:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

There is judgement day I guess it must have happened by 70 AD after all…… he says I come quickly …………surely he didn't mean over 2,000 years away. I say that with all the scepticism I can get into a sentence.





Well that or maybe being a Jew he is using a Jewish poetic language style where there is parallelisms that connects the beginning to the end. Naa thats too easy right :wink:





Let us forget such phrases and let us look at what is being said in terms of events.




Oh copping out that quick?

The best place for that is in Chapter 12. Because we have some events I think ALMOST everyone will agree has Happened and we all know when..

Rv 12:5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is very clearly Jesus. So at this point we are at about 27 AD


Ahh dis-agree, this is Israel(true followers)-the woman and Jesus. Israel is the woman and the man-child is Jesus. This is tJesus at his birth and at his resurrection.

Verse 7 then goes back in Time again To War in heaven and Satan being Cast Down to Earth which we also know when This was.

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So here is Satan falling from Heaven after the 70 return To Jesus having the Power to drive out Demons who are Satan's workers.




Agree


11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Well here are the Apostles or those same 70 being put to death. Notice it says love NOT their Lives it does not say and THEY WILL NOT……….It says DID NOT. Clearly this event has already happened as John is being showed the vision this is a recap of what has gone on up to the vision. Many of the 70 in fact most were killed by the Jews not the Romans.


I see you have left out a very important verse:




And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.




those who overcame are the brothers, Satan is the accuser of all Christians not just the 12 or 70. The blood of the church ran from the day Stephen died till this day. And what is stated in verse 11 is played out every time a Martyr dies.


13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So here Satan or The Dragon Persecutes the Woman Who is the twelve Tribes of Israel or some would say The True Church the true Olive Tree.


Agree

Well we know that the Romans went after the Jewish Nation starting in about 66 AD so this is about 66AD.


Bzzzz wrong try again.




I thought you said you knew your history, the Romans didn't just “go after” the Jews. The Jews incited them to war. From just a cursory reading Josephus one can see this.

14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.




This is the destruction of Jerusalem as the Saints or the Woman flee from the Dragon Jerusalem is destroyed in a flood.

Daniel 9: Confirms this

26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

It is no coincidence that Jesus uses the same words in both of these prophesises. When we Trust the words of the one who wrote the book we can see where we are and it is 70 AD. This whole section of Revelation is very clearly in the PAST TENSE.




So your rolling the dice on the fact that it was written in English in the past tense??




You may want to have a Greek geek back you up on that one......

Lets Continue.

16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth

Well Satan's attempts to use Rome to destroy the Truth fail and the Earth swallows up the flood and she and her remnant escape into the people's of the Empire they are a wash and everywhere.




ehh close enough for me, though the Christians in Jerusalem did flee to the hills (earth) before dispersing.

Well Satan is not impressed

Rv 12: 17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So now Satan goes after Christianity. This again starts in about 67 AD but is after most of the 70 have been killed. This is more then just Nero's one persecution this is still in the past tense and includes 30 years of persecution and still more TO COME all the way to the end of the Saints.

Agree

When we take the Chapter Title out of Rev and run 12 and 13 together we can see the First Beast of Rev 13 is very clearly Rome..

[17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. [1]And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.

Here we see Satan using Rome to chase down Christianity we are Told later that he will overcome the saints. This indeed does happen




Agree


[/quote]Revelation was clearly written after all the Saints but John were killed this as we have seen takes us far past the date of 70 AD which is toted as the return of Jesus by Preterists.[/QUOTE]


Honestly I am unimpressed, you are hedging all your bets on the fact that chapter 12 is “past tense”.


:sh:

[Just The Facts]

Hi Study

Well making myself the Martyr was not the intent just stating the fact and trying to break the ice. As we see the first two responses suggest I was right to expect just that.


Quote
Ahh dis-agree, this is Israel(true followers)-the woman and Jesus. Israel is the woman and the man-child is Jesus. This is tJesus at his birth and at his resurrection.

End Quote


I was talking about Jesus alone……I agree the Woman is the True Body of believers that is the True Olive Tree.



Quote

Bzzzz wrong try again.

I thought you said you knew your history, the Romans didn't just “go after” the Jews. The Jews incited them to war. From just a cursory reading Josephus one can see this.

End Quote

Hahahahaha OK …………………………..obviously the Jews started the whole thing with the Temple revolt…………Then In 66 AD the Romans went after them and sent a few minor leaguers in……….so to speak………………. and they got defeated……………. then Nero sent Vespasian ……………………Then Vespasian was made Emperor and he Sent is Son Titus to Finnish the job. It was Titus…………. as we are all aware ……………….that sacked Jerusalem…..and as Daniel Spoke it so it happened.

[26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

Its end did indeed come with a flood. As confirmed in Rev 12.

As far as hedging all my bets …………………..I think not…………………… this I believe is the most clear “internal” evidence that this was written after 70 AD and that 96 AD is the correct date of the writing of Revelation.

That is just one chapter there is still a lot of other internal evidence…………..However as we can see there is nothing of significance that can be debated in the opening post.

Rev 12 clearly shows the Whole Book was written long After Jerusalem fell

[studyhound]

As far as hedging all my bets …………………..I think not…………………… this I believe is the most clear “internal” evidence that this was written after 70 AD and that 96 AD is the correct date of the writing of Revelation.

That is just one chapter there is still a lot of other internal evidence…………..However as we can see there is nothing of significance that can be debated in the opening post.

Rev 12 clearly shows the Whole Book was written long After Jerusalem fell
Chapter 12 is hardly the knife to the heart you think it is, like I said the greek would bare out the correct tense, and that being said this type of literature is hardly a type that lends its self well to literal interpetation, so even if the greek is past tense it would be hard to place it in a wooden literal interpertation.


Also I could throw several "proofs" for a pre-70 date, and not just the time text.

:sh:

[Just The Facts]

Hi Study


oh sure it is.......................it is Gods words and it can be trusted.............there is no counter to this because it is the Truth...........it can only be countered with denial and illusion

Yes I have had several debates where preterists have used the Tense of Various sections of Revelation to TRY and show and early date…………………..and then when you use it to show the truth of Chapter 12: they say the exact same thing ..............I would not be so confident in the tense thing......................

Post away..............I think any early dating proof will be easily shown to be in error.

But please do post some.

[studyhound]

Hi Study


oh sure it is.......................it is Gods words and it can be trusted.............there is no counter to this because it is the Truth...........it can only be countered with denial and illusion

Yes I have had several debates where preterists have used the Tense of Various sections of Revelation to TRY and show and early date…………………..and then when you use it to show the truth of Chapter 12: they say the exact same thing ..............I would not be so confident in the tense thing......................
Neither should you.................

Post away..............I think any early dating proof will be easily shown to be in error.

But please do post some.
Maybe after Christmas. my time between now and then is scetchy.

:sh:

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I am confident in the words of the Lord and the Truth that lies within. The evidence for the Late date of Rev is everywhere in the Bible .......soooo many things in prophecy yet fulfilled that are directly spoken of in rev.

Ok hope to see you then........hope you have a good holiday season...........don't get toooo stressed about time............everything has its time as I am sure you are aware.

[Terral]

Just the Facts:
Facts >> Sorry I thought you were saying I was a preterist...i find the format of this site hard to get use to so much excess/ uneeded data everywhere
Your sarcasm was misinterpreted above. Use your word processor, then select “quick reply” and paste your message into the box. Then select “Go Advanced,” and delete all of the mischievous Verdana 2 font lines added to your work to personalize your presentation and submit your post. At that point the Verdana 2 corruptions to your work should be brought to a minimum. More options are a good thing, IMHO.
Facts >> Everything I say makes sense (smile)
Heh . . . If you say so. While I disagree with some of your interpretations of particular verses, at least you are in the right ball park. This “Quote” and “End Quote” format is VERY confusing, and I give up on understanding what you are saying in many posts. Just give the “name >>” of the person you are addressing, and remove all doubt.
Terral Original >> Plus a season? Heh. Your Scriptural reference in no way speaks to your assertion.

Facts >> No....it is in scripture or I would not have said it.
Everyone reads Scripture from their own preconceived notions about how that verse is interpreted. You ‘saying it’ means nothing, unless your argument is supported by the verse you are quoting AND in the right context.
Facts Quote >> 3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
A ‘season’ and a ‘short season’ are two different things. The ‘day of the Lord’ is a ‘time’ (from Acts 1:7; chronos #5550) relative to the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8) of the ‘day of the Lord.’ 2Pet. 3:10. The ‘mikros chronos’ (short time; Rev. 20:3) is relative to the period given to Satan for his deception at the very end of the age. In other words, this little time of Satan is parenthetical to the ‘day of the Lord,’ as Christ comes to make that time short (Matt. 24:30) near the ‘end of the age.’ Therefore, to say “Plus a season (time),” as you did above is inaccurate. Satan coming to deceive the nations at the end of the age is not extra innings. He is coming in the bottom of the ninth, just before the ‘great and glorious’ Judgment (Matt. 25:31-33) associated with the ‘day of the Lord.’ 2Pet. 3:10-12.
Facts >> Where he was cast out of was from the Holy jerusalem in Heaven....................because as we read in Job Satan can still go before the Divine Council............The Heavenly Council is where the Sons Of god met to discuss each of their Nations on Earth as Each Nation had an Angel as its prince at the heavenly council (Quote Job 1:6, 2:1).
Satan is still the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Eph. 2:2) to this day, and the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:4). He is the ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes. 2:11) at work today, as he is fashioning the unholy spiritual body of the antichrist, according to the ‘mystery of lawlessness.’ 2Thes. 2:7. Quoting Job or Ezekiel does not change anything about what Paul, Peter and John have written about these things in the New Testament.
Facts >> So the Only thing Satan was cast out of in Isaiah was his seat at the council. In This case the Nation is Phoenicia and the city is Tyre that is who this Satan is prince of.
Holy Molies . . . Satan is the ‘GOD OF THIS WORLD’ (2Cor. 4:4) and the ‘PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR.’ (Eph. 2:2). Your statement about Christ seeing him cast down to the earth during the time of the Four Gospels is inaccurate. He has been ‘cast out’ since the time of Genesis 1:2 (darkness), and shall be here until Revelation 20:10, when his sorry behind goes into the lake of fire. He is bound ONLY during the thousand years (Rev. 20:2) and loosed at the very end of the coming ‘day of the Lord’ that starts in Revelation 1:10.
Facts >> In rev 12 he is cast out from heaven and can no longer go before the throne of God. One is cast out of the Council the Other is cast out of Heaven.
In Revelation 12? Nothing in the remainder of your posts makes any sense at all to these points. How does Paul describe the forces of this darkness?

“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness [ since Gen. 1:2 ], against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”



The thing that get's me about this editor, is it shows one font (Georgia) in the box, and puts out Verdana2 fonts anyway, like below. And nothing you do will change it. : o (
“Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age [ Evil Age; Gal. 1:4 of darkness ] nor of the rulers of this age [ Eph. 6:12 above ], who are passing away . . .”
Satan and his bad guys are going to continue running the show from the heavenly places, until they are chained at the very start of the ‘thousand years’ (Rev. 20:2, 2Pet. 3:8) of the coming “Day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10), or as John calls it, the “Lord’s Day.” Rev. 1:10.

In Christ.

Terral

[Just The Facts]

Hi Terrel

No Lucifer was not cast out of Heaven at the Garden.

Job is clear Lucifer could still go before God.

Job:1:6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job:2:1: Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

That was after the Garden...................the Devil WAS NOT cast out of Heaven at the Garden.........................THE FALLEN ANGELS were ...........not the Devil.................That is why they are in the Pit

2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2Pt:2:11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Rev 17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

The Devil on the other Hand could still go to Heaven and back to Earth and back to Heaven

Job 1: [7] The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."

Rev also makes it clear that the testimony of the 70 and their sealing was the defeat of the Devil in Heaven................it was the Fact that they loved not their lived till death that Allowed Michael to kick the Devil out of Heaven and cast him to Earth

HE CAN NO LONGER GO BEFORE GOD AND ACCUSE MANKIND

12:10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So when Jesus send out the Seventy .................Michael defeats the Devil in Heaven and Casts him down to Earth....................where he goes After Christianity

That is the 70............................and they all were killed..................they over came the Devil..................not the Beast...........the Devil

Rev 12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Which is what Jesus warns the Apostles about

Jn:12:31: Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Cast out when Jesus saw him fall like Lightening from Heaven.

Jn:14:30: Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Yes when the Devil was cast down to Earth he did what...back to Rev 12

13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

There he is going After the True Olive Tree which is At Jerusalem..........

Destroying Jerusalem in a Flood does not stop the Saints soooooo the Devil goes after Christianity proper

17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It seems to me tyou think the Beast and the Devil are the same being they are not.

[HerodionRomulus]

This is not a Preterist site, but I can see how it might appear that way since DDW is a Preterist AND Queen of Tweb.
:bow: :lol:

Anyway,

Matthew 24 is Three questions, not two.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ needs to be understood separately from the other book, the Letter to the 7 Churches, which at an early date was conflated with the Revelation. Once we eliminate this centuries old confusion we can better understand the Revelation.

John the Prophet was seeing visions which were presented in symbolic form and this book is NOT intended for merely literal reading or for precision of facts. It presents things in a broad general sweep.

It was written at an early date, probably while John was in Herod's prison, though that is just a guess, it could have been written at any time before John's death.
This is why the book has no mention of Jesus and why details are fuzzy at best. It was showing in broad outline things which had happened, things which were happening and things which would happen.

[InChristAlways]

John the Prophet was seeing visions which were presented in symbolic form and this book is NOT intended for merely literal reading or for precision of facts. It presents things in a broad general sweep.
It was written at an early date, probably while John was in Herod's prison, though that is just a guess, it could have been written at any time before John's death.
This is why the book has no mention of Jesus and why details are fuzzy at best. It was showing in broad outline things which had happened, things which were happening and things which would happen


How true and it is no wonder that revelation has been "collecting dust" for centuries LOL.
This would have to be the same temple standing when Christ is shown taken up here which would also be half of Daniel's 70th week fulfilled leaving the last half in revelation as the tribulations and wrath. We agree that revelation would have to be the conclusion of Daniel's 70th week and since neither Daniel or Paul speak of a 1000yr period, it seems it would have to be the between the reaping of the elect and destruction of Jerusalem in chapt 14 correct?
Reve appears to be showing 3 different endtimes, reve 14 "grapes of wrath", chapt 19 "Supper of the Great God" and chapt 20 "armegeddon". Ezekiel 39 shows one endtime event for the great Sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel, the Day God Glorifies Himself, which is the same event as the supper of God in revel 19 it seems.

reve 12: 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. [i]3 " And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected [it] to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? 5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it."

reve 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [i]20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

reve 19: 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all [people,] free and slave, both small and great."

ezekiel 39:13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD. 17 " And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: "Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel, That you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty, Drink the blood of the princes of the earth,

[Just The Facts]

HI Herodion

Quote of Herodion


It was written at an early date, probably while John was in Herod's prison, though that is just a guess, it could have been written at any time before John's death.
This is why the book has no mention of Jesus and why details are fuzzy at best. It was showing in broad outline things which had happened, things which were happening and things which would happen.


End Quote


Unbelievable ...................Oh Yes we should believe your Doctrine........................PLEASE ..........................JOHN TELLS US WHERE HE WAS....................

Rev 1:9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If your denial of the written word was not so blatant it might even be funny....................but alas follow your doctrines of Men putting to no avail the words of God……………………..

As stated rev 12 clearly shows this book was written in 96 AD many years after Jerusalem fell in 70 AD

[InChristAlways]

HI Herodion

Quote of Herodion


It was written at an early date, probably while John was in Herod's prison, though that is just a guess, it could have been written at any time before John's death.
This is why the book has no mention of Jesus and why details are fuzzy at best. It was showing in broad outline things which had happened, things which were happening and things which would happen.


End Quote


Unbelievable ...................Oh Yes we should believe your Doctrine........................PLEASE ..........................JOHN TELLS US WHERE HE WAS....................

Rev 1:9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If your denial of the written word was not so blatant it might even be funny....................but alas follow your doctrines of Men putting to no avail the words of God……………………..

As stated rev 12 clearly shows this book was written in 96 AD many years after Jerusalem fell in 70 ADHi JTF. Even if revelation was written years after John visioned it, how would that change what revelation is representing?
Can you tell me who is being represented by the worshippers in the temple being measured in chapt 11[remembering that reve 12 shows Christ being taken up to God's throne so we assume it is the same temple back then]. How soon after Christ was taken up was the temple measured?
So what is your concern about when John visioned it or when it was even written or even if he was the one that visioned it? What is the Lord's Day? What salvation is Paul talking about here, spiritual or from the enemies of Christ and him, the jews of the house of Judah?

This would be the first half of Daniel's 70th week fulfilled I believe, leaving only a 3 and half yr period left in revelation.

reve 12: 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces, The refuse of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

romans 13:11 And [do] this, knowing the time, that now high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation [is] nearer than when we [first] believed. [i]12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you. Amen.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and [b]those who worship there.

The Sadducees rejected the concept of resurrection, because it was considered of pagan foreign origin. They followed the ancient Jewish beliefs about Sheol as they were before Greek influence modified them. They also did not believe in fate, in demons or in angels. The Sadducees believed that God would reward the righteous and punish the wicked during their lifetime on earth. They were in charge of the Temple and its rituals. They felt that as long as animal sacrifices and other rituals were continued in Jerusalem, that Israel would continue without major disasters. After the Roman army attacked and destroyed the Temple and the rest of Jerusalem in 70 CE, they were bitterly disillusioned. They ceased to exist as a cohesive group shortly afterwards. By the end of the 1st century CE, they had essentially disappeared.

[HerodionRomulus]

Either I wrote it poorly or you read it badly or not at all.

John of Patmos wrote the portion beginning at what is called ch 1 v4---thru the end of ch3 plus a phrase or two interpolated at the end of the Revelation.
Notice it is a STANDARD letter format. This is a separate document written some time during the Flavian period.

John, son of Zechariah and Elizabeth, and/or his disciples are responsible for the other document and of course it was written early.

Further, Daniel is NOT connected to the Revelation. When the context of Daniel is accounted for, it is easy to see that it was referring to events during the Maccabean/Hasmonean era.

[Terral]

Facts:
Facts >> No Lucifer was not cast out of Heaven at the Garden. Job is clear Lucifer could still go before God.
Lucifer? That is the Latin for Satan and not part of Scripture. And your OT points about Satan being thrown down are all mute. We have an Intercessor at the right hand of God (Rom. 8:34), because Satan is our accuser at the throne of God even now. That is why Paul calls him the ‘god of this world.’ 2Cor. 4:4. He is only chained during the coming ‘Lord’s day,’ and for the ‘thousand years,’ to be loosed for a short time. John sees these things and describes them in Revelation 12:


"And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
John describes him being loosed at the ‘end’ of the thousand years (Rev. 20:7) that is definitely a part of the New Testament. Therefore, none of the OT references serve as anything relating to this topic of when Satan was cast down onto the earth.
Facts Quotes >> 2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2Pt:2:11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Peter is talking about when the ‘sons of God came in to the daughters of men’ (Gen. 6:4) and the Nephilim were invading the seed of the woman. This point does nothing to prove the points in your case.
Facts >> Rev also makes it clear that the testimony of the 70 and their sealing was the defeat of the Devil in Heaven................it was the Fact that they loved not their lived till death that Allowed Michael to kick the Devil out of Heaven and cast him to Earth
Revelation and your testimony does not make anything clear. Every verse of Scripture must be read in the true context in which God has presented it. You are showing Satan being kicked out of heaven here in the future, and trying to make a case for the same thing in the OT. The only thing that clear is that your presentation of these points is very unclear.
Facts shouting >> HE CAN NO LONGER GO BEFORE GOD AND ACCUSE MANKIND

Facts Quotes My Verse >> 12:10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
John is describing Satan being cast down after his chaining in Rev. 20:2-7. He has been overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the testimony of the saints. But you feel the need to run back to Job and other OT references to show what is part of John’s NT revelation of things STILL FUTURE. Satan is the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Eph. 2:2) even now. His evil forces of the darkness are in power (Eph. 6:12) as we speak. Satan is accusing the righteous in from of God right this instant, and shall continue to do so until he is chained for the coming “Lord’s day.” Rev. 1:10 – 20:7 (Loosed). He is only cast down to the earth upon being loosed for that short time.

In Christ,

Terral

[InChristAlways]

Either I wrote it poorly or you read it badly or not at all.

John of Patmos wrote the portion beginning at what is called ch 1 v4---thru the end of ch3 plus a phrase or two interpolated at the end of the Revelation.
Notice it is a STANDARD letter format. This is a separate document written some time during the Flavian period.

John, son of Zechariah and Elizabeth, and/or his disciples are responsible for the other document and of course it was written early.

Further, Daniel is NOT connected to the Revelation. When the context of Daniel is accounted for, it is easy to see that it was referring to events during the Maccabean/Hasmonean era.What do you mean Daniel is not connected to revelation?
By the time revelation was written/visioned, some things were already fulfilled I believe.
Can I ask how others see this passage in revelation. It shows the "TAIL" of the dragon casting down a third of the stars BEFORE the birth of Jesus [what is meant by his "tail"?].
I thought this might be symbolic of "4 kingdoms" being thrown down leaving 8 stars left. I have a view on what those 8 stars might represent, as Christ came to set up His NT church and to also destroy the OC "church".
I would just like to see others views on this. Thanks and God bless.

reve 12: 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

[Terral]

Herodion:
Herodion >> Either I wrote it poorly or you read it badly or not at all.
Perhaps you are attempting to utilize a strategy that borders on the slightly ridiculous.
Herodion >> John of Patmos wrote the portion beginning at what is called ch 1 v4---thru the end of ch3 plus a phrase or two interpolated at the end of the Revelation. Notice it is a STANDARD letter format. This is a separate document written some time during the Flavian period.
Interpolated my eye . . . Your hypothesis is that the interpretation of the Word of God should be sifted through somebody’s false notion on how God delivered the mail. The Book of Revelation is just as much God-breathed Scripture as any of the other sixty-five books if it had twenty human authors. Scripture says,

“So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
Herodion >> John, son of Zechariah and Elizabeth, and/or his disciples are responsible for the other document and of course it was written early.
No sir . . . John had been exiled to Patmos “because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Rev. 1:9. John the Baptist as thrown into prison in Mark 1, and long before there was any persecution over the name of Jesus. I am also not buying your two part mini-series division of this account.
Herodion >> Further, Daniel is NOT connected to the Revelation. When the context of Daniel is accounted for, it is easy to see that it was referring to events during the Maccabean/Hasmonean era.
Heh. Easy to see?

“I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.”


“Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.”
How many of the OT prophets would you guess use the term ‘mystery’ in their prophetic utterances? Only Daniel. Daniel 2:18+19, 27+30, 47, 4:9. He described the statue representing the four Gentile Empires (Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman), which the Stone will crush at His coming. Daniel 2:35. The coming ‘beast’ is going to be the head of that revived Roman Empire that shall come to power near the ‘end of the age.’ I can hardly believe that someone would come along and say Daniel’s Prophecies are not connected to Revelation. Christ tells you that the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15, Daniel 24:15) is coming at the ‘end of the age’ Matt. 24:3-31. John is describing the ‘end time’ events relating to the ‘end of the age’ in Revelation. The Preterists here are acting like the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 16:16; Har-Megedon) has already happened; not by a long shot. Christ describes the end time events so severe, that if He did not return to stop it, then “no life would have been saved.” Matt. 24:22. Nothing like that happened in 70 Ad.. Every bit of Revelation is still future.

In Christ,

Terral

[Just The Facts]

Hi Terral


My capping is not shouting I am just to lazy to do all the VB code .......it is way easier to just hit the caps lock.......So please do not think I am shouting.


quote
Peter is talking about when the ‘sons of God came in to the daughters of men’ (Gen. 6:4) and the Nephilim were invading the seed of the woman. This point does nothing to prove the points in your case.
End Quote


I agree that is what Peter is Talking about........................It does prove my point................... which was ..........................that the Beast IS NOT the Devil. They are Two different beings that go to the lake of Fire over 1,000 years apart.

Lucifer is not the term for Satan in Latin at all

Satan means Advisory........................Lucifer means Morning Star.

here is The RSV of the same verse that is translated as Lucifer

[12] "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground you who laid the nations low!

As for the Devil HE CAN NOT go before the Throne of God to accuse us anymore Jesus and the Saints put an end to his travels to Heaven the Devil is now stuck here on Earth roaming around looking for the ignorant to devour them.

The Devil HAS NOT been locked in the Pit he roams the Earth …..where as the Beast IS LOCKED in the Pit



Quote
Revelation and your testimony does not make anything clear. Every verse of Scripture must be read in the true context in which God has presented it. You are showing Satan being kicked out of heaven here in the future, and trying to make a case for the same thing in the OT. The only thing that clear is that your presentation of these points is very unclear.
End Quote



No I am saying the devil was kicked out of heaven in 26 AD or there abouts when Jesus said i saw Satan fall from heaven like Lightening. The Beast (Azazel)is in the Pit with the Fallen Angels for breeding with man.....................the Devil roams the Earth as stated by Peter.................Just before Jesus return at the Fifth trumpet the Pit is opened and the Beast is let out........................he is defeated by Jesus at his return and cast into the Lake of Fire. THEN The Devil is bound and cast into the pit and the 1,000 years starts.

1,000 years latter the devil is let out of the pit...................deceives the nations and is destroyed by God......................Then the second resurrection............the rest of the dead AND the Devil are cast into the lake of fire

WHERE THE BEAST HAS BEEN FOR OVER 1,000 years.

10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is NOTHING about Revelation 12 that is Future it is a Historical recap of what Happened up to 96AD when revelation was written.

The Futurist view of this chapter is just not in line with what is being stated in the tense of the verses or the Historical record.

[Terral]

Hi Facts:

Facts >> I agree that is what Peter is Talking about..... It does prove my point.... which was ... that the Beast IS NOT the Devil. They are Two different beings that go to the lake of Fire over 1,000 years apart.
Really? The above is your stated opinion based upon nothing.
Facts >> As for the Devil HE CAN NOT go before the Throne of God to accuse us anymore Jesus and the Saints put an end to his travels to Heaven the Devil is now stuck here on Earth roaming around looking for the ignorant to devour them.
John describes the accuser cast down in the future.

“Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.”
Facts >> The Devil HAS NOT been locked in the Pit he roams the Earth …..where as the Beast IS LOCKED in the Pit
Again, your opinion and a quarter is not buying very much. Typing in caps does not make it so. John describes the beast coming up out of the sea, and not the pit.

“And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.”
The dragon is Satan who has just been loosed (Rev. 20:7) for his ‘short time.’ The ‘beast’ is his ‘man of lawlessness’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) to whom the dragon gives power for the short time. He carries out the ‘abomination of desolation’ in Matthew 24:15 by taking his seat in the holy place making himself out to be God.
Facts >> No I am saying the devil was kicked out of heaven in 26 AD or there abouts when Jesus said i saw Satan fall from heaven like Lightening. The Beast (Azazel)is in the Pit with the Fallen Angels for breeding with man.....................the Devil roams the Earth as stated by Peter.................Just before Jesus return at the Fifth trumpet the Pit is opened and the Beast is let out........................he is defeated by Jesus at his return and cast into the Lake of Fire. THEN The Devil is bound and cast into the pit and the 1,000 years starts.
Heh. 26 Ad? The dragon (Satan; Rev. 13:1) with his beast (Rev. 13:1+2) and the second beast (false prophet; Rev. 13:11-14) all appear together in Revelation 13. The events of Revelation 20 occur on top of the events of Revelation 19. The beast and false prophet go into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20) just prior to the final judgment of Satan (Rev. 20:10). The “Judgment” is at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) everyone is judged very near the same time.
Facts >> 1,000 years latter the devil is let out of the pit..deceives the nations and is destroyed by God...Then the second resurrection...the rest of the dead AND the Devil are cast into the lake of fire WHERE THE BEAST HAS BEEN FOR OVER 1,000 years.

Facts Quotes >> 10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Again, they all appear together in Revelation 13, and gather their armies together for the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the age.

“Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.”

“. . . and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
This is a retelling of the same battle that occurred in Revelation 14 (wine press; vs 17-20) and Revelation 16 (Har-Megedon; Rev. 16:16) from different perspectives. John is describing the same ‘thousand years’ during this accounting of the “Lord’s Day” that started back in Revelation 1:10. All of the bad guys appear at the end of the age together.
Facts >> There is NOTHING about Revelation 12 that is Future it is a Historical recap of what Happened up to 96AD when revelation was written. The Futurist view of this chapter is just not in line with what is being stated in the tense of the verses or the Historical record.
Heh. Your name should be JustMyOpinion. Your flamboyant interpretation of the New Testament requires you to invent more than one ‘thousand years,’ when John speaks of ‘the’ thousand years (Rev. 20:5). Satan is chained to start the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) which ends with the ONE judgment in Rev. 20:10-15. The dragon (Satan) is merely judged after the beast and false prophet. These are not individual beings John is describing, but references to the heads of their perspective groups of unholy beings and hosts. That is why you see those deceived by the beast already in the fire in Rev. 14:11. That is the judgment of the ‘beast’ with all the members of his body. His body has many members just like the ‘body of Christ.’ (Romans 12:4+5, 1Cor. 12:12, 14, 20, etc..).

In Christ,

Terral

[Just The Facts]

Hi terral

Oh yes you are so correct please.........you are lost in a lie that the Beast is the Devil.......he is not ......................The beast is Azazel.

They clearly are two seperate beings that go the lake of fire 1,000 years apart.....................I provided scripture.............. ..you provided sarcasim.

Please your understanding is less then scriptural and you post no verses to back anything you say. My Handle "just the Facts" is not becauuse I think Only I have the Facts.............it is Joe friday Just the Facts sir.............i only want scriptural facts not rambelings of the ignorant without even scripture to back up their false doctrine.

here is the Beast

Rev 19:20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

There is the Beast being thrown in the lake of fire.................

Rev 20:1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

There is the Devil being bound and cast in the pit

4:And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


there is the First resurrection and the 1,000 years of peace with the Saints ruling from Holy jerusalem. At this point the Beast is inthe Lake of Fire and the Devil is bound in the Pit.

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


There is the Devil being thrown in the lake of fire WHERE THE BEAST HAS BEEN FOR OVER 1,000 years .

Scripture is sooooo clear .now if you wish to follow that false doctrine contrived by demons please feel Free ………………………………….I will stick to the plain words of God...............