How do we know what/who created us?

[Allen]

Let's just say for instance that we were created by something/someone, which I have never been completely opposed to believing. In fact, I have always believed that something/someone must have created us. How do we know that a God created us? How do we know that we aren't just some spin-off of some experiment? How do we know that we aren't a spin-off, of a spin-off, of a spin-off etc....?

There is a possibility that we could be here by chance and by a creator at the same time.

The truth is that some of us can't live without knowing or thinking that we know why we are here. I believe that is a major reason that we have so many religious beliefs in this one small world. An Atheist can cope with not knowing, because he/she doesn't think there is anything after death anyway.

[Hitch]

One man looks out on a starry night and is is overcome by the spectacle God has presented.

Another looks at the same stars and sees proof God is but an invention of the mind.

The Bible says faith is the gift of God.


Take care

Hitch

[Socratism]

03-09-2003 @ 01:48 PM
Hitch:
The Bible says faith is the gift of God.


Not saying you are wrong, but I have been unable to find where in the Bible this is said.

Could you help me out here?

[Sozo]

Start with yourself and work backwords.

[Hitch]

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(KJV)

Is the gift 'grace' or salvation or faith?

The answer is yes.

Take care

H

[Socratism]

Hitch,

Not saying that you are wrong, but the Bible says over 20 times that grace is the gift of God, and nowhere else is faith mentioned as being a gift of God. Therefore I always thought that the "it" referred back to grace not faith.

Am I wrong?

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 01:33 PM
Socratism:

Hitch,

Not saying that you are wrong, but the Bible says over 20 times that grace is the gift of God, and nowhere else is faith mentioned as being a gift of God. Therefore I always thought that the "it" referred back to grace not faith.

Am I wrong?

How could all of it not be a gift? Who else besides God is the source of all things?

"For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith"

[Socratism]

Sozo,


How could all of it not be a gift? Who else besides God is the source of all things?

I don't happen to think that God is the source of all evil in the world.

It may well be true that God is the source of a person's faith, rather than the object of faith, but I would rather see it said clearly and unabiguously in a Bible verse (preferably more than one) than simply implied as you have done here.

My point was only that we humans sometimes attribute a doctrine to the Bible when a single verse that supports it is not necessarily as conclusive as usually assumed.

If you say that faith is a gift from God then this might be taken to mean that God plays favorites, for it is a fact that some people have faith and some do not.

[Hitch]

If you say that faith is a gift from God then this might be taken to mean that God plays favorites, for it is a fact that some people have faith and some do not.

Well God does play favorites if you care to put it that way. That is what 'elect' means, if an 'elect' exists then the contrary is true, a 'nonelect' exists.




James 1:16-17
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
(KJV)



take care

Hitch

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 04:28 PM
Socratism:
If you say that faith is a gift from God then this might be taken to mean that God plays favorites, for it is a fact that some people have faith and some do not.

Not according to the verse that absolutely says otherwise...

"...as God has allotted to each a measure of faith"

God may not be the source of all evil, but He is the source of those who do evil. He has also provided the means for those who turn from it... grace through faith. The faith is there for "whosoever will", and it is in accord with His grace.

[Socratism]

03-09-2003 @ 05:43 PM
Sozo:

Not according to the verse that absolutely says otherwise...

"...as God has allotted to each a measure of faith"

God may not be the source of all evil, but He is the source of those who do evil. He has also provided the means for those who turn from it... grace through faith. The faith is there for "whosoever will", and it is in accord with His grace.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Since Paul is referring to the body of believers here, may I suggest that you have taken this verse out of its context?


How could all of it not be a gift? Who else besides God is the source of all things?

AND

God may not be the source of all evil, but He is the source of those who do evil.

Please clarify for me whether you still believe that God is the source of all things, including all evil. This seemed to be your support for claiming that faith came from God because all things come from God.

Again, I am not saying I necessarily disagree. I just want to understand the reasoning behind it and whether the Bible is really clearly stating this as a fact.

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 08:24 PM
Socratism:



Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Since Paul is referring to the body of believers here, may I suggest that you have taken this verse out of its context?

That may very well be the case. But, let us say that faith comes by hearing the message concerning Christ. Even given that, our capacity to exercise that faith, must be a gift from God, the same as our ability to respond to the air through breathing.

Of course, I am coming from a free will perspective. But, if it is God's sovereignty that precedes faith, than nothing other than a gift would apply.


Please clarify for me whether you still believe that God is the source of all things, including all evil. This seemed to be your support for claiming that faith came from God because all things come from God.

When I say that God is the source of all things, I am proclaiming that all things begin and end with Him. God creates the gravity, even if he does not cause the plane to crash. Yet without that foundational source, the plane might stay aloft.

Entrope is God's plan of turning us towards dependancy. It is not evil, but evil certainly proceeds from it.

I would however have to speculate on the appearance of evil in the spiritual realm, because I have no way of knowing what precipitated the fall of angels. But, I do not think that at some point, God created them and is therefore the source of everything created, including the vehicle(s) which led to their demise.