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rogue06
04-22-2014, 01:06 PM
Quite possibly. At least according to a report by the British expert that introduced the first automated fingerprint detection system to the Metropolitan Police and the Home Office’s first Forensic Science Regulator, Mike Silverman. He claims that despite what is widely believed it has not been shown that fingerprints are unique.

He points out that "not everyone’s fingerprints have been recorded so it’s impossible to prove that no two are the same" and added that while "it’s improbable, but so is winning the lottery, and people do that every week."

Silverman also notes that families can share elements of the same pattern and thinks that such factors as human error, partial prints and false positives mean that fingerprints evidence is not infallible.

Elaborating on some of the problems Silverman said that, "No two fingerprints are ever exactly alike in every detail; even two impressions recorded immediately after each other from the same finger. And the fingerprint often isn’t perfect, particularly at a crime scene. It might be dirty or smudged. There are all sorts of things that reduce the accuracy.”

He added that, "It requires an expert examiner to determine whether a print taken from crime scene and one taken from a subject are likely to have originated from the same finger."

He also pointed to other difficulties such as scanning fingerprints of the elderly as their skin loses elasticity making them warped and some conditions that leaves some people with smooth, featureless fingertips. I remember a police officer friend of mine telling me how his bricklayer son-in-law had virtually no fingerprints.

Silverman also pointed to several cases were innocent people have been wrongly accused based on inaccurate fingerprinting evidence. For example back in 2004, an attorney from Oregon, Brandon Mayfield, was wrongly linked to the Madrid train bombings by FBI fingerprint experts who claimed to identify his prints as being on a bag containing detonating devices were found by Spanish authorities. The FBI described the fingerprint match as "100% verified" and as a result he was arrested and detained for two weeks before being released.

Also noted was a recent study by Southampton University found that two thirds of experts who were unknowingly shown the same sets of fingerprints twice came to a different conclusion on the second occasion.



Further Reading:

Why your fingerprints may not be unique (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10775477/Why-your-fingerprints-may-not-be-unique.html)

Are Forensics Experts Relying On Inconsistent Fingerprint Technology? (http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1113126033/fingerprints-not-unique-forensic-experts-inconsistent-042214/)

robrecht
04-22-2014, 01:54 PM
This was part of an old episode of Law & Order.

Teallaura
04-22-2014, 02:16 PM
:uhoh:

Cow Poke
04-22-2014, 02:16 PM
Next, they're gonna be saying that about snowflakes. :sad:

Teallaura
04-22-2014, 02:19 PM
Next, they're gonna be saying that about snowflakes. :sad:
You're too late - they already did.

Cow Poke
04-22-2014, 02:22 PM
You're too late - they already did.

Why are you PICKING on me? :bawl: Following me to EVERY THREAD and picking on me just to be MEAN!!!! You STALKER!!!!!

And, no they did NOT! :no:

Teallaura
04-22-2014, 02:48 PM
Did, too!


http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/12/03/scientists-discover-snowflake-identical-to-one-which-fell-in-1963/

Raphael
04-22-2014, 02:57 PM
So Rogue, are you saying that a brick left underwater for a coupla months won't have a 100% accurate fingerprint? CSI has lied to me :brood:


On the serious side, pineapple juice also tends to remove fingerprints.

Cow Poke
04-22-2014, 02:58 PM
Did, too!


http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/12/03/scientists-discover-snowflake-identical-to-one-which-fell-in-1963/

:doh:

I'm colorblind, and even I can tell they have different backgrounds! :glare:

Jorge
04-22-2014, 03:05 PM
Quite possibly. At least according to a report by the British expert that introduced the first automated fingerprint detection system to the Metropolitan Police and the Home Office’s first Forensic Science Regulator, Mike Silverman. He claims that despite what is widely believed it has not been shown that fingerprints are unique.

He points out that "not everyone’s fingerprints have been recorded so it’s impossible to prove that no two are the same" and added that while "it’s improbable, but so is winning the lottery, and people do that every week."

Silverman also notes that families can share elements of the same pattern and thinks that such factors as human error, partial prints and false positives mean that fingerprints evidence is not infallible.

Elaborating on some of the problems Silverman said that, "No two fingerprints are ever exactly alike in every detail; even two impressions recorded immediately after each other from the same finger. And the fingerprint often isn’t perfect, particularly at a crime scene. It might be dirty or smudged. There are all sorts of things that reduce the accuracy.”

He added that, "It requires an expert examiner to determine whether a print taken from crime scene and one taken from a subject are likely to have originated from the same finger."

He also pointed to other difficulties such as scanning fingerprints of the elderly as their skin loses elasticity making them warped and some conditions that leaves some people with smooth, featureless fingertips. I remember a police officer friend of mine telling me how his bricklayer son-in-law had virtually no fingerprints.

Silverman also pointed to several cases were innocent people have been wrongly accused based on inaccurate fingerprinting evidence. For example back in 2004, an attorney from Oregon, Brandon Mayfield, was wrongly linked to the Madrid train bombings by FBI fingerprint experts who claimed to identify his prints as being on a bag containing detonating devices were found by Spanish authorities. The FBI described the fingerprint match as "100% verified" and as a result he was arrested and detained for two weeks before being released.

Also noted was a recent study by Southampton University found that two thirds of experts who were unknowingly shown the same sets of fingerprints twice came to a different conclusion on the second occasion.



Further Reading:

Why your fingerprints may not be unique (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10775477/Why-your-fingerprints-may-not-be-unique.html)

Are Forensics Experts Relying On Inconsistent Fingerprint Technology? (http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1113126033/fingerprints-not-unique-forensic-experts-inconsistent-042214/)

This thread is a DUD. I know of not a single case where someone has been convicted and sentenced based SOLELY on a fingerprint. It is always the case that a fingerprint is combined with other evidences that THEN leads to a conviction and sentencing. R06's thinking here is as shallow as it is towards Biblical Creationism and ID. No wonder he's lost.

Oh well ... my work here is done ... off to another mission. :apnick: :hehe:

jorge

rogue06
04-22-2014, 03:38 PM
This thread is a DUD. I know of not a single case where someone has been convicted and sentenced based SOLELY on a fingerprint. It is always the case that a fingerprint is combined with other evidences that THEN leads to a conviction and sentencing. R06's thinking here is as shallow as it is towards Biblical Creationism and ID. No wonder he's lost.

Oh well ... my work here is done ... off to another mission. :apnick: :hehe:

jorge
That depends on what you mean by "a single case where someone has been convicted and sentenced based SOLELY on a fingerprint." If you mean that this was the only physical evidence linking the suspect to a crime, then you would be wrong. But usually if not alway,s there is going to be something more if not necessarily physical evidence. For instance, if the person had a motive.

rogue06
04-22-2014, 03:40 PM
Next, they're gonna be saying that about snowflakes. :sad:
NOW will you believe me when I say just cause you found my fingerprints on that empty package of bacon doesn't necessarily mean I took it :innocent:

robrecht
04-22-2014, 04:17 PM
So Rogue, are you saying that a brick left underwater for a coupla months won't have a 100% accurate fingerprint? CSI has lied to me :brood: Law & Order and any of its spin-offs is way better than any of the versions of CSI.

Raphael
04-22-2014, 04:31 PM
Law & Order and any of its spin-offs is way better than any of the versions of CSI.

I prefer NCIS. I stopped watching the CSI's a while ago.

Cow Poke
04-22-2014, 06:59 PM
I prefer NCIS. I stopped watching the CSI's a while ago.

Yeah, and NCIS is a spinoff of JAG. :thumb:

robrecht
04-22-2014, 07:12 PM
We all know Law & Order is better, but let's just cut to the chase and declare Star Trek as the best TV show ever, though a couple of the spin-offs were no good, eg, Deep Space 9 and Enterprise. The best spin-off was undoubtedly Voyager.

Cow Poke
04-22-2014, 07:19 PM
We all know Law & Order is better, but let's just cut to the chase and declare Star Trek as the best TV show ever, though a couple of the spin-offs were no good, eg, Deep Space 9 and Enterprise. The best spin-off was undoubtedly Voyager.

Yeah, Star Trek would be NOWHERE without the pioneer LOST IN SPACE!

Cerealman
04-22-2014, 09:55 PM
Let's talk about Tv shows from my time :hehe:

Raphael
04-22-2014, 10:01 PM
We all know Law & Order is better, but let's just cut to the chase and declare Star Trek as the best TV show ever, though a couple of the spin-offs were no good, eg, Deep Space 9 and Enterprise. The best spin-off was undoubtedly Voyager.

Meh, I've been rewatching Star Trek TOS, TNG and DS9, and while all three are enjoyable, I do think that TNG is better than TOS, and DS9 improves once the war with the Dominion starts.
Voyager, I ended up missing the last two seasons of it (I was amused that Stargate: Universe was basically Voyager with stargates). I haven't seen any of Enterprise.

DesertBerean
04-22-2014, 10:18 PM
Yup....While TOS will always be special to me, TNG is better. I did watch much of Voyager and DS9, not so much at all of the others.

robrecht
04-22-2014, 10:26 PM
Yeah, Star Trek would be NOWHERE without the pioneer LOST IN SPACE!Maybe so, but note the micro evolutionary progress from the Jupiter 2 to the Enterprise, from Robot to Data, etc, all of which suggests the macro evolutionary leap from Lost in Space to Starfleet. And, while Voyager has a similar theme, it is so much better, it's not even funny. They were all the way over in the Delta Quadrant and could still travel around for decades exploring, while Judy, Penny, and Will were mostly stuck one single planet. Now let's talk about kids on space ships. They do not belong there. Surely, you will bring up Wesley Crusher, well, I agree, that was a mistake. About the best thing that happened on Lost in Space was that Maureen Robinson somehow found her way back to earth, where she went into hiding as Dr. Janet Craig at the Shady Rest Hotel, which allowed us to continue to watch Billie Jo, Bobbie Jo, and Betty Jo. Sorry, Cerealboy.

Raphael
04-22-2014, 10:48 PM
Let's talk about Tv shows from my time :hehe:

I talk enough of Mike the Knight (http://www.miketheknight.com/en-us/index.html) and Postman Pat (http://www.postmanpat.com/) and Kune's Kitchen (http://tvnz.co.nz/kunes-kitchen/kune-s-5870276) with my daughters thanks :rasberry:

Carrikature
04-23-2014, 06:44 AM
I talk enough of Mike the Knight (http://www.miketheknight.com/en-us/index.html) and Postman Pat (http://www.postmanpat.com/) and Kune's Kitchen (http://tvnz.co.nz/kunes-kitchen/kune-s-5870276) with my daughters thanks :rasberry:

Don't forget Sofia the First. :lol:

Teallaura
04-23-2014, 07:09 AM
Maybe so, but note the micro evolutionary progress from the Jupiter 2 to the Enterprise, from Robot to Data, etc, all of which suggests the macro evolutionary leap from Lost in Space to Starfleet. And, while Voyager has a similar theme, it is so much better, it's not even funny. They were all the way over in the Delta Quadrant and could still travel around for decades exploring, while Judy, Penny, and Will were mostly stuck one single planet. Now let's talk about kids on space ships. They do not belong there. Surely, you will bring up Wesley Crusher, well, I agree, that was a mistake. About the best thing that happened on Lost in Space was that Maureen Robinson somehow found her way back to earth, where she went into hiding as Dr. Janet Craig at the Shady Rest Hotel, which allowed us to continue to watch Billie Jo, Bobbie Jo, and Betty Jo. Sorry, Cerealboy.

^:lmbo:


We sooooo need amens back!!!

Sparko
04-23-2014, 07:13 AM
Klaatu barada nikto

Teallaura
04-23-2014, 07:19 AM
The Day the Earth Stood Still was a movie... :ahem:

Sparko
04-23-2014, 07:48 AM
Forbidden Planet was a movie... :ahem:

It was from "The day the Earth Stood Still," nimwit.

Teallaura
04-23-2014, 07:51 AM
It was from "The day the Earth Stood Still," nimwit.

:poke: I'd already changed it - I always get those two titles mixed up.

Sparko
04-23-2014, 07:56 AM
:poke: I'd already changed it - I always get those two titles mixed up.

Nicto Barada Klaatu! :glare:

Cow Poke
04-23-2014, 07:59 AM
Maybe so, but note the micro evolutionary progress from the Jupiter 2 to the Enterprise, from Robot to Data, etc, all of which suggests the macro evolutionary leap from Lost in Space to Starfleet. And, while Voyager has a similar theme, it is so much better, it's not even funny. They were all the way over in the Delta Quadrant and could still travel around for decades exploring, while Judy, Penny, and Will were mostly stuck one single planet. Now let's talk about kids on space ships. They do not belong there. Surely, you will bring up Wesley Crusher, well, I agree, that was a mistake. About the best thing that happened on Lost in Space was that Maureen Robinson somehow found her way back to earth, where she went into hiding as Dr. Janet Craig at the Shady Rest Hotel, which allowed us to continue to watch Billie Jo, Bobbie Jo, and Betty Jo. Sorry, Cerealboy.

I just hate it when you're SO right! :glare:

Teallaura
04-23-2014, 08:01 AM
Nicto Barada Klaatu! :glare:

:rasberry:

robrecht
04-24-2014, 04:49 AM
I just hate it when you're SO right! :glare:
But I love it when you admit this!

phank
04-24-2014, 06:51 PM
Meanwhile, studies show that eyewitness identifications are wrong about half the time. That is, the eyewitness either picks the wrong person out of the lineup when the actual suspect is there, or picks someone out when the suspect isn't in the lineup at all. Half the time.

JonF
04-25-2014, 05:18 AM
New Jersey Court Issues Guidance for Juries About Reliability of Eyewitnesses (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/nyregion/judges-must-warn-new-jersey-jurors-about-eyewitnesses-reliability.html?_r=0)

shunyadragon
05-11-2014, 04:44 AM
I reviewed the article and a few other sources and concluded that fingerprint technology is still valid. The language of the degree of reliability using terms like 'impossible' and 'improbable' to describe the problem lack some specifics as to the nature of the problem in all human affairs and that is the fallibility of human judgment and the application of technology. Yes, there is a problem of evaluating very similar finger prints, but there is a lacking of specifics in the article where it has not been determined how often wrongful identities have effected legal cases. Where one of the most problematic issues of identity, eyewitness testimony, is a major issue and well documented that it is common where the wrong person has been convicted based 'eye witness' testimony not only as a matter of identity, but also the accurate recollection of events. The technology is available to evaluate fingerprints on a micro scale, and remove human error from the judgment process, which will likely eliminate the problem of errors in fingerprint identification.

The article on snow flakes does not address one issue, difference on the molecular scale between the two snow flakes. Snow flakes form around a dust particle, and it is very very unlikely that any two dust particles are the same. On a larger scale many things may look alike, but no they are not alike.

The bottom line is that there are many things that may be considered possible, but, 'What is the probability that they may occur?'

klaus54
05-11-2014, 11:57 AM
There are some cases where fingerprint evidence is ambiguous or unusable, therefore all fingerprint evidence is worthless.

There are a few questions in historical geology that haven't been answered or are unanswerable, therefore all of historical geology is worthless "historical science".

Epistemological Nihilism.

LOL,

Santa

klaus54
05-11-2014, 06:55 PM
Oh, and NCIS stinks since Ziva left.

K54

Cow Poke
05-11-2014, 06:58 PM
Oh, and NCIS stinks since Ziva left.

K54

You're not liking the new Chick?

klaus54
05-12-2014, 08:14 AM
You're not liking the new Chick?

Not at all. Bad fit. Cute, wimpy, and whiny. Ziva had only one of those characteristics.

Sparko
05-12-2014, 08:17 AM
You're not liking the new Chick?
She is OK but the bad blonde hair dye job with thick black eyebrows is kinda distracting.

robrecht
05-12-2014, 09:07 AM
Not at all. Bad fit. Cute, wimpy, and whiny. Ziva had only one of those characteristics.I've only watched the show several times a couple of years ago (didn't even know she was gone), but you make some excellent points about Ziva.

Cow Poke
05-12-2014, 10:47 AM
I've only watched the show several times a couple of years ago (didn't even know she was gone), but you make some excellent points about Ziva.

I loved where MaGee told Ziva, "well, my parents raised me to be a gentleman, and YOUR parents raised YOU to be ... um.. a KILLER" :lmbo:

Raphael
05-12-2014, 01:58 PM
She is OK but the bad blonde hair dye job with thick black eyebrows is kinda distracting.

Ummm I went to school with a chap whose hair was naturally white blonde and his eyebrows were naturally thick and black.

Sparko
05-12-2014, 04:00 PM
Ummm I went to school with a chap whose hair was naturally white blonde and his eyebrows were naturally thick and black.

I have someone at work like that. He is prematurely gray. But this girl on NCIS is obviously brunette - dunno, maybe it is supposed to be the style, but I find it distracting. But she is cute.

here she is as a brunette:

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/09/f3/e6/09f3e672f365b0356073fb029c5ac971.jpg

and as a blonde on ncis:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTGC6NM-Vb1sH18CSc8xLX8MSzGv1o4FIXi-4DQmuJYnY6QQZx

I think she looks better with dark hair.

Teallaura
05-13-2014, 07:20 AM
Ummm I went to school with a chap whose hair was naturally white blonde and his eyebrows were naturally thick and black.
You went to school with Inuyasha? :huh:


























Sorry, couldn't resist...

robrecht
05-13-2014, 07:29 AM
... here she is as a brunette:

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/09/f3/e6/09f3e672f365b0356073fb029c5ac971.jpg

and as a blonde on ncis:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTGC6NM-Vb1sH18CSc8xLX8MSzGv1o4FIXi-4DQmuJYnY6QQZx

I think she looks better with dark hair.Very perceptive!

klaus54
05-13-2014, 09:30 AM
She's def hotter as a brunette.

K54

rogue06
05-13-2014, 10:13 AM
You went to school with Inuyasha? :huh:






Sorry, couldn't resist...
Waaaaaaaaay too much anime :no:

Teallaura
05-13-2014, 11:03 AM
Waaaaaaaaay too much anime :no:
Says the guy who got the joke... :whistle: