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seer
06-20-2018, 10:05 AM
I really don't want a debate, but rather a discussion. The older I get the more taken aback I am by dreams. I will give you an idea. The other night I'm in a big hall setting up chairs for an event. Me and two black guys that I ran with 35 years ago are setting up chairs, but one of the guys made an argument as to why we should not be involved with the event, I said to him, that was a good point, I never thought of that. So we stopped. The thing is, his argument caught me totally off guard, and my dream self did not even consider it. So somehow my subconscious formulated a rational argument and presented in my dream. An argument that I didn't see coming. But I must have seen it coming because it was my argument. Or was it?????

Sparko
06-20-2018, 11:00 AM
I really don't want a debate, but rather a discussion. The older I get the more taken aback I am by dreams. I will give you an idea. The other night I'm in a big hall setting up chairs for an event. Me and two black guys that I ran with 35 years ago are setting up chairs, but one of the guys made an argument as to why we should not be involved with the event, I said to him, that was a good point, I never thought of that. So we stopped. The thing is, his argument caught me totally off guard, and my dream self did not even consider it. So somehow my subconscious formulated a rational argument and presented in my dream. An argument that I didn't see coming. But I must have seen it coming because it was my argument. Or was it?????

Maybe dreams are actually glimpses into parallel universes.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/66c32467a02327da2aab938ca14b95f9/tenor.gif

seer
06-20-2018, 11:02 AM
Maybe dreams are actually glimpses into parallel universes.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/66c32467a02327da2aab938ca14b95f9/tenor.gif

Hehe, I do wonder at times...

Sparko
06-20-2018, 11:06 AM
Hehe, I do wonder at times...

Tonight, the you in the parallel universe is going to dream about you posting on theologyweb about dreams.

seer
06-20-2018, 11:25 AM
Tonight, the you in the parallel universe is going to dream about you posting on theologyweb about dreams.

How do you know I'm not doing that now?

Sparko
06-20-2018, 11:59 AM
How do you know I'm not doing that now?

You are.

If the many worlds theory is correct then every possible permutation of everything exists. So that means there is a universe where you are doing exactly anything you can imagine or dream. There is even one where you are the President of the USA and Starlight is your VP.

:eek:

seer
06-20-2018, 05:11 PM
There is even one where you are the President of the USA and Starlight is your VP.

:eek:

Actually I sent Star to a black site, re-education and stuff...

Faber
06-20-2018, 06:06 PM
Now for a more serious response.

When I am sleeping lightly, or just before I wake up, it appears to me like different parts of my brain are operating separately without communicating with one another. So my conscious part isn't aware that my thinking part is thinking. And my conscious part, because it isn't communicating with my thinking part, obviously doesn't think it odd when long deceased people suddenly show up, or you're back in places that no longer exist. The thinking part draws persons and places from its memory.

You don't really see or hear your dreams; you only think you see them, and usually can't tell the difference.

Tassman
06-20-2018, 10:26 PM
I really don't want a debate, but rather a discussion. The older I get the more taken aback I am by dreams. I will give you an idea. The other night I'm in a big hall setting up chairs for an event. Me and two black guys that I ran with 35 years ago are setting up chairs, but one of the guys made an argument as to why we should not be involved with the event, I said to him, that was a good point, I never thought of that. So we stopped. The thing is, his argument caught me totally off guard, and my dream self did not even consider it. So somehow my subconscious formulated a rational argument and presented in my dream. An argument that I didn't see coming. But I must have seen it coming because it was my argument. Or was it?????

I was taught in psychology that dreaming could be analogous to nature’s filing system. The function of dreaming is to store new material into the memory system according to its own subconscious logic in a way that both reduces emotional stress and makes us more adaptive in coping with further trauma or stressful events. But this is only conjecture, it is not really known why we dream.

Cerebrum123
06-21-2018, 04:07 AM
Actually I sent Star to a black site, re-education and stuff...

No, that's universe #1,000,000,012, and Sparko is talking about universe #6,089,000,098.


:outtie:

seer
06-21-2018, 04:44 AM
No, that's universe #1,000,000,012, and Sparko is talking about universe #6,089,000,098.


:outtie:

My mistake...

seer
06-21-2018, 04:51 AM
I was taught in psychology that dreaming could be analogous to nature’s filing system. The function of dreaming is to store new material into the memory system according to its own subconscious logic in a way that both reduces emotional stress and makes us more adaptive in coping with further trauma or stressful events. But this is only conjecture, it is not really known why we dream.

I don't know, there are some very strange things that happen. Things out of the blue, not in any way related to the past day or so. For instance in one recent dream I'm driving on a back road at night, in a sports car with the top down at night with a close friend, a deer jumps out and over the car with his back legs hitting my friend, but he clears me. Where did that dream come from? Why?

Sparko
06-21-2018, 05:54 AM
Now for a more serious response.

When I am sleeping lightly, or just before I wake up, it appears to me like different parts of my brain are operating separately without communicating with one another. So my conscious part isn't aware that my thinking part is thinking. And my conscious part, because it isn't communicating with my thinking part, obviously doesn't think it odd when long deceased people suddenly show up, or you're back in places that no longer exist. The thinking part draws persons and places from its memory.

You don't really see or hear your dreams; you only think you see them, and usually can't tell the difference.

I have lucid dreams where I suddenly realize I am in a dream. At that point I can wander around and do anything I want. It is like being on the Holodeck in Star Trek. I definitely see and hear and even smell in my dreams, full 3D technicolor. I remember being in a hallway and suddenly being conscious I was in a dream. I walked up to the wall, which was painted concrete block, blue, and could see every little dip and bump in the wall. I reached out and felt it. It was totally real. Then I materialized a machine gun and blew it away!. :hehe:

Cerebrum123
06-21-2018, 06:10 AM
I have lucid dreams where I suddenly realize I am in a dream. At that point I can wander around and do anything I want. It is like being on the Holodeck in Star Trek. I definitely see and hear and even smell in my dreams, full 3D technicolor. I remember being in a hallway and suddenly being conscious I was in a dream. I walked up to the wall, which was painted concrete block, blue, and could see every little dip and bump in the wall. I reached out and felt it. It was totally real. Then I materialized a machine gun and blew it away!. :hehe:

I've had realistic dreams like that too. Sometimes doing what you want, even if you realize it is a dream doesn't always work. One particularly bad one had a zombie munching on me, and I couldn't get away even though I knew it was a dream. :sigh:

Sparko
06-21-2018, 06:14 AM
I've had realistic dreams like that too. Sometimes doing what you want, even if you realize it is a dream doesn't always work. One particularly bad one had a zombie munching on me, and I couldn't get away even though I knew it was a dream. :sigh:

Usually if I try too hard to control the dream, I just wake up all the way. Sometimes I will drift back into not realizing I am dreaming too.

seer
06-21-2018, 07:11 AM
I have lucid dreams where I suddenly realize I am in a dream. At that point I can wander around and do anything I want. It is like being on the Holodeck in Star Trek. I definitely see and hear and even smell in my dreams, full 3D technicolor. I remember being in a hallway and suddenly being conscious I was in a dream. I walked up to the wall, which was painted concrete block, blue, and could see every little dip and bump in the wall. I reached out and felt it. It was totally real. Then I materialized a machine gun and blew it away!. :hehe:

So if I know I'm in a dream and doing something immoral - is that counted as a sin? Or do we get a pass?

Sparko
06-21-2018, 08:49 AM
So if I know I'm in a dream and doing something immoral - is that counted as a sin? Or do we get a pass?

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

seer
06-21-2018, 09:05 AM
Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

But is my dream self my real self?

Sparko
06-21-2018, 09:23 AM
But is my dream self my real self?

Yes. Unless you are dreaming you are someone else. I suggest you dream you are Starlight while sinning, that way he gets the ding on his record instead of you.

Zymologist
06-21-2018, 09:30 AM
Dreams are weird. I've had some of the most random, bizarre dreams (e.g., my church in Idaho being invaded by neon-colored aliens, and me fighting them with Warhammer 40k-style weapons), but I've also had some pretty lame dreams (I dreamt once that the retracting part of a broken seatbelt started working again...and that was it).

seer
06-21-2018, 09:44 AM
Yes. Unless you are dreaming you are someone else. I suggest you dream you are Starlight while sinning, that way he gets the ding on his record instead of you.

Good call! But, wait, then no women would want me! A conundrum...

seer
06-21-2018, 09:46 AM
Dreams are weird. I've had some of the most random, bizarre dreams (e.g., my church in Idaho being invaded by neon-colored aliens, and me fighting them with Warhammer 40k-style weapons), but I've also had some pretty lame dreams (I dreamt once that the retracting part of a broken seatbelt started working again...and that was it).

Yeah, so what is deciding to create these various scenarios, what decides what you will dream and when?

Zymologist
06-21-2018, 09:50 AM
Yeah, so what is deciding to create these various scenarios, what decides what you will dream and when?

Yeah, that's what's weird. The seatbelt dream was based on a real seatbelt, but it never did start working again. The alien invasion dream...:huh:

Sparko
06-21-2018, 10:10 AM
Yeah, so what is deciding to create these various scenarios, what decides what you will dream and when?

What decides what you daydream about? It is basically the same process. Your mind has all these things going on in it. What you ate, what you watched on TV, what you were worried about that day, what made you happy. And when you sleep, all that stuff comes to the surface and you start thinking and imagining stuff and it becomes a dream. You can work things out in dreams, and wake up with a complete solution ready to go. Or it could just be entertainment. different dreams at different times for different reasons.

Sparko
06-21-2018, 10:10 AM
Yeah, that's what's weird. The seatbelt dream was based on a real seatbelt, but it never did start working again. The alien invasion dream...:huh:

probably one of your video games.

Faber
06-21-2018, 11:48 AM
Ever sleep with the radio on? Weird things happen.

One night I was dreaming that we were organizing a volleyball game in my bedroom. The net was spread across the bed, and two team captains started selecting team members. Then the captains got into a conversation about home schooling. The rest of us got impatient and went to the kitchen for a snack. We came back up to the bedroom, and the team captains were still discussing home schooling. It was almost time to end the game anyway and go home. Then I woke up. James Dobson and Focus on the Family was on the radio, discussing home schooling.

Another night, I dreamed that I was at work, and one of the co-workers in the other cubicle was preaching the gospel. I didn't wake up, but I later suspect that the audio came from one of the Bible preachers on the radio.

My wife will kill me if she ever reads this one: I dreamed that we were going over the budget. I mentioned the utility bill, and she whispered "paaiiiid." The mortgage? She whispered "paaiiiid." Telephone bill? She whispered "paaiiiid." Then I woke up. She was softly snoring, and as she exhaled I heard her whisper "paaiiiid."

If you don't read any future posts from me, it's probably because I'm dead.

seer
06-21-2018, 12:24 PM
Ever sleep with the radio on? Weird things happen.

One night I was dreaming that we were organizing a volleyball game in my bedroom. The net was spread across the bed, and two team captains started selecting team members. Then the captains got into a conversation about home schooling. The rest of us got impatient and went to the kitchen for a snack. We came back up to the bedroom, and the team captains were still discussing home schooling. It was almost time to end the game anyway and go home. Then I woke up. James Dobson and Focus on the Family was on the radio, discussing home schooling.

Another night, I dreamed that I was at work, and one of the co-workers in the other cubicle was preaching the gospel. I didn't wake up, but I later suspect that the audio came from one of the Bible preachers on the radio.

My wife will kill me if she ever reads this one: I dreamed that we were going over the budget. I mentioned the utility bill, and she whispered "paaiiiid." The mortgage? She whispered "paaiiiid." Telephone bill? She whispered "paaiiiid." Then I woke up. She was softly snoring, and as she exhaled I heard her whisper "paaiiiid."

If you don't read any future posts from me, it's probably because I'm dead.

LOL! I sleep with the fan on when it's warm - I swear it is talking to me in my sleep!

Cerebrum123
06-21-2018, 03:38 PM
Ever sleep with the radio on? Weird things happen.

One night I was dreaming that we were organizing a volleyball game in my bedroom. The net was spread across the bed, and two team captains started selecting team members. Then the captains got into a conversation about home schooling. The rest of us got impatient and went to the kitchen for a snack. We came back up to the bedroom, and the team captains were still discussing home schooling. It was almost time to end the game anyway and go home. Then I woke up. James Dobson and Focus on the Family was on the radio, discussing home schooling.

Another night, I dreamed that I was at work, and one of the co-workers in the other cubicle was preaching the gospel. I didn't wake up, but I later suspect that the audio came from one of the Bible preachers on the radio.

My wife will kill me if she ever reads this one: I dreamed that we were going over the budget. I mentioned the utility bill, and she whispered "paaiiiid." The mortgage? She whispered "paaiiiid." Telephone bill? She whispered "paaiiiid." Then I woke up. She was softly snoring, and as she exhaled I heard her whisper "paaiiiid."

If you don't read any future posts from me, it's probably because I'm dead.

I used to listen to the radio all the time to try and help me sleep. Often the Adventures in Odyssey series. More recently when I feel I'm just about to fall asleep I hear what sounds like the radio, and actual songs and stations. They aren't ones I recognize though.

Tassman
06-21-2018, 11:43 PM
I don't know, there are some very strange things that happen. Things out of the blue, not in any way related to the past day or so. For instance in one recent dream I'm driving on a back road at night, in a sports car with the top down at night with a close friend, a deer jumps out and over the car with his back legs hitting my friend, but he clears me. Where did that dream come from? Why?

Well, as I say, it's theorised that dreaming is to store new material into the memory system according to its own subconscious logic. I suspect the underlined is the key.

seer
06-22-2018, 04:51 AM
Well, as I say, it's theorised that dreaming is to store new material into the memory system according to its own subconscious logic. I suspect the underlined is the key.

But what is the subconscious? Is it another personality? Another "me" making decisions that this "me" not consciously aware of? I mean who is running the show here?

seer
06-22-2018, 04:53 AM
I used to listen to the radio all the time to try and help me sleep. Often the Adventures in Odyssey series. More recently when I feel I'm just about to fall asleep I hear what sounds like the radio, and actual songs and stations. They aren't ones I recognize though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU

Sparko
06-22-2018, 05:44 AM
Anyone ever experience being awake while your body is asleep? When you sleep your brain turns off your body so you don't act out your dreams, basically paralyzing you. I have had incidents where I woke up but my body was still "asleep" and I could not move. It is freaking scary. You are not fully awake but you are conscious. I feel like some shadowy beings are hovering over me and sometimes I hear whispering (kinda like what Brum was saying) - I will try really hard and will wake up all the way and sit up.

I think things like that are what cause people to think they are being attacked by demons or abducted by aliens.

http://www.sleepeducation.org/sleep-disorders-by-category/parasomnias/sleep-paralysis/overview-facts

seer
06-22-2018, 07:57 AM
Anyone ever experience being awake while your body is asleep? When you sleep your brain turns off your body so you don't act out your dreams, basically paralyzing you. I have had incidents where I woke up but my body was still "asleep" and I could not move. It is freaking scary. You are not fully awake but you are conscious. I feel like some shadowy beings are hovering over me and sometimes I hear whispering (kinda like what Brum was saying) - I will try really hard and will wake up all the way and sit up.

I think things like that are what cause people to think they are being attacked by demons or abducted by aliens.

http://www.sleepeducation.org/sleep-disorders-by-category/parasomnias/sleep-paralysis/overview-facts

That has happened to me a number of times when I was younger, it is interesting that it hasn't happened since I have been a Christian. And it is scary - a dark presence in the room... And I don't dismiss the demonic...

Sparko
06-22-2018, 08:01 AM
That has happened to me a number of times when I was younger, it is interesting that it hasn't happened since I have been a Christian. And it is scary - a dark presence in the room... And I don't dismiss the demonic...

reading up on it, it seems to happen mostly to young people and not so often when you get older. The last time it happened to me was probably when I was in my 30s. But I still have lucid dreams. Those are awesome. The next time I have one, I will ask whoever is in it "what is the nature of dreams?" for you and see what they say.

Zymologist
06-22-2018, 08:12 AM
Anyone ever experience being awake while your body is asleep? When you sleep your brain turns off your body so you don't act out your dreams, basically paralyzing you. I have had incidents where I woke up but my body was still "asleep" and I could not move. It is freaking scary. You are not fully awake but you are conscious. I feel like some shadowy beings are hovering over me and sometimes I hear whispering (kinda like what Brum was saying) - I will try really hard and will wake up all the way and sit up.

I think things like that are what cause people to think they are being attacked by demons or abducted by aliens.

http://www.sleepeducation.org/sleep-disorders-by-category/parasomnias/sleep-paralysis/overview-facts

Yeah, I've had it happen. Freaked the crap out of me...like, I knew someone hostile was in the room behind me, but could not even turn around and look.

Cerebrum123
06-22-2018, 08:40 AM
That has happened to me a number of times when I was younger, it is interesting that it hasn't happened since I have been a Christian. And it is scary - a dark presence in the room... And I don't dismiss the demonic...

I still have those occasionally, not fun at all. Sleep paralysis is a horrible thing.

mossrose
06-22-2018, 11:43 AM
I just wake up in the morning and can't get my body moving because I hurt. Does that count?

seer
06-22-2018, 11:55 AM
I just wake up in the morning and can't get my body moving because I hurt. Does that count?

It counts for me!

Tassman
06-22-2018, 06:37 PM
But what is the subconscious? Is it another personality? Another "me" making decisions that this "me" not consciously aware of? I mean who is running the show here?

It's the 'inner you'. It's the part of your mind of which you're not aware but which nevertheless influences your actions and feelings...some would argue that it is the primary influence.

seer
06-23-2018, 03:46 AM
It's the 'inner you'. It's the part of your mind of which you're not aware but which nevertheless influences your actions and feelings...some would argue that it is the primary influence.

So the conscious me really has no idea what the inner me is thinking or planning! That is scary...

Tassman
06-23-2018, 09:55 PM
So the conscious me really has no idea what the inner me is thinking or planning! That is scary...

Most of our brain activity is beyond our conscious awareness; it is generated in a non-conscious manner. The good news is that if we were raised right during our formative years, our subconscious brain activity will probably result in positive choices on the whole.

seer
06-24-2018, 05:27 AM
Most of our brain activity is beyond our conscious awareness; it is generated in a non-conscious manner. The good news is that if we were raised right during our formative years, our subconscious brain activity will probably result in positive choices on the whole.

But! If that is the case then this unconscious process has been forming our conscious minds from the beginning. How did "it" know what was good or positive or not?

shunyadragon
06-24-2018, 08:54 AM
But! If that is the case then this unconscious process has been forming our conscious minds from the beginning. How did "it" know what was good or positive or not?

God or positive has survival value.

I consider dreams a normal process in most higher mammal, and even at least some reptiles. In sleep the neural network of the brain goes through a sorting and regeneration process, and goes through different stages,


we actually do not remember most dreams. Dreaming occurs in the REM stage with rapid eye movements and is part of a natural process.

Tassman
06-24-2018, 09:30 PM
But! If that is the case then this unconscious process has been forming our conscious minds from the beginning. How did "it" know what was good or positive or not?

The natural evolution of human behaviour ensures the survival of the family and community so that the human species survives. And what we are as adults is largely influenced by what we absorbed from our social environment as a child.

As per the quote originating with Aristotle: 'Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.' It is our formative years that make us who we are at the subconscious level and our decision-making is to a large extent a process handled by our subconscious mental activity.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm

seer
06-25-2018, 04:04 AM
The natural evolution of human behaviour ensures the survival of the family and community so that the human species survives. And what we are as adults is largely influenced by what we absorbed from our social environment as a child.

But like we discussed in the past, the evolutionary process does not care if we survive, it does not aim for our survival, there is no goal for our survival.

shunyadragon
06-25-2018, 06:08 AM
But like we discussed in the past, the evolutionary process does not care if we survive, it does not aim for our survival, there is no goal for our survival.

Odd anthropomorphic statement 'evolutionary process does not care,' and of course, the evolutionary processes are not based on an anthropomorphic caring concern. The science of evolution is in part based on the survival of those best suited for an environment, and a changing environment.

Your response did not address Tassman's post, because it did not address the science.

Sparko
06-25-2018, 06:33 AM
I think what we see and experience, or even think about during the day becomes the seeds of our dreams.

Last night I was watching "Legion" and their was a cool scene of a cloudscape flowing like a wave over a city. I thought it looked cool.

Then last night I had a dream in which part of it was me standing outside taking pictures and I saw an awesome sky that looked like Van Gogh's Starry Night and started taking photos of it.

Tassman
06-26-2018, 12:17 AM
But like we discussed in the past, the evolutionary process does not care if we survive, it does not aim for our survival, there is no goal for our survival.

Survival has nothing to do with caring. It's instinctive for all living creatures to try and survive.

You have not addressed the point that it is during our formative years we become who we are at the subconscious level. Our decision-making is to a large extent a process handled by our subconscious mental activity.


I think what we see and experience, or even think about during the day becomes the seeds of our dreams.

...yes, and enters our subconscious

JohnHermes
09-16-2018, 09:14 AM
http://i64.tinypic.com/noh7oj.jpg

Jedidiah
09-16-2018, 11:21 AM
Yeah, so what is deciding to create these various scenarios, what decides what you will dream and when?

I take care of that for you.

seer
09-16-2018, 12:20 PM
I take care of that for you.

Then do a better job!

rogue06
09-16-2018, 01:28 PM
Interestingly dreams which many would call a nightmare I see as an adventure.

seer
09-16-2018, 02:04 PM
Interestingly dreams which many would call a nightmare I see as an adventure.

Like a naked Michael Moore chasing you?

rogue06
09-16-2018, 03:04 PM
Like a naked Michael Moore chasing you?
An opportunity to test my skill with a Claymore

TheWall
09-16-2018, 04:19 PM
An opportunity to test my skill with a Claymore

Why is micheal moore chasing you?

seer
09-16-2018, 04:26 PM
Why is micheal moore chasing you?

Rogue has some really strange dreams, doesn't he! :teeth:

rogue06
09-17-2018, 12:20 AM
Why is micheal moore chasing you?
It appears that seer is projecting his dreams onto others.

seer
09-17-2018, 03:06 AM
It appears that seer is projecting his dreams onto others.

Don't try to clean it up!

rogue06
09-17-2018, 03:12 AM
Don't try to clean it up!
Why? You want it to remain "pure" and unsullied as you imagined it? :grin:

seer
09-17-2018, 05:24 AM
Why? You want it to remain "pure" and unsullied as you imagined it? :grin:

Touche!

Leonhard
09-19-2018, 03:35 AM
Whether its possible to sin in dream remains very theoretical with the consensus of theologians leaning strongly towards no.

Basically you're not of sound mind while you're dreaming, most dreams are entirely involuntary. For lucid dreaming I'll says its a maybe. That is if you became awake enough to have concious thought, but still remaining in a dream... and choose to dream about something sinful out of a desire. Then I think that could possible be a sinful dream. But, it would really depend on whether you were simply dreaming about 'choosing something evil' which could just be natural fear you have, or dreaming about something sinful because your rational nature is asleep (and its only the rational nature that can perform moral actions.)

But its very theoretical. We do enough bad stuff when we're awake to worry about what we do while we're asleep.

Sparko
09-19-2018, 05:39 AM
Whether its possible to sin in dream remains very theoretical with the consensus of theologians leaning strongly towards no.

Basically you're not of sound mind while you're dreaming, most dreams are entirely involuntary. For lucid dreaming I'll says its a maybe. That is if you became awake enough to have concious thought, but still remaining in a dream... and choose to dream about something sinful out of a desire. Then I think that could possible be a sinful dream. But, it would really depend on whether you were simply dreaming about 'choosing something evil' which could just be natural fear you have, or dreaming about something sinful because your rational nature is asleep (and its only the rational nature that can perform moral actions.)

But its very theoretical. We do enough bad stuff when we're awake to worry about what we do while we're asleep.

So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.

Chrawnus
09-19-2018, 02:04 PM
So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.

I don't think Leonhard's example of lucid dreaming and deliberately choosing to dream about something sinful is the same thing as "thinking about a sin".

In any case, I do happen to think it's possible to sin "in your head" so to speak, but the important thing is not what you think about, but how you think about it. For example, feeling sexual attraction towards someone other than your fiancé(e)/spouse is not necessarily a sin. But I'm pretty sure choosing to indulge in sexual fantasies in your mind about someone other than your spouse is a sin. And Leonhard's example about lucid dreaming does seem like it could qualify under the "choosing to indulge in something" umbrella. :shrug:

seer
09-20-2018, 04:48 AM
I don't think Leonhard's example of lucid dreaming and deliberately choosing to dream about something sinful is the same thing as "thinking about a sin".

In any case, I do happen to think it's possible to sin "in your head" so to speak, but the important thing is not what you think about, but how you think about it. For example, feeling sexual attraction towards someone other than your fiancé(e)/spouse is not necessarily a sin. But I'm pretty sure choosing to indulge in sexual fantasies in your mind about someone other than your spouse is a sin. And Leonhard's example about lucid dreaming does seem like it could qualify under the "choosing to indulge in something" umbrella. :shrug:

The thing is, I have had dreams where I knew what I was about to do was a sin, I was aware of that. And did it anyway... I suspect that was an actual sin.

Chrawnus
09-20-2018, 04:59 AM
The thing is, I have had dreams where I knew what I was about to do was a sin, I was aware of that. And did it anyway... I suspect that was an actual sin.

I don't know about that.

I think there's another way of looking at it. I don't think sinful thoughts and dreams (non-lucid ones, i.e where you're not aware you're dreaming at the moment) in and of themselves constitute actual sin. I do think they're indicative of our sinful nature however. And when it comes to "not being allowed into heaven/the new earth" I believe having a sinful nature is just as damning as committing individual sins. Which is why when Christ returns our old sinful nature will be exchanged for a new sin-free one in which we won't have these thoughts and dreams of sin.

Leonhard
09-25-2018, 01:58 PM
So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.

Not all thoughts are equal. The notion of accidentally sinning is an oxymoron. If a sin is to be a sin, it has to be an action of your free will. Involuntary thoughts cannot be sinful. Temptations can't be sinful either. But there's a difference between being tempted, and wilfully plotting revenge in your mind.

Sparko
09-26-2018, 06:55 AM
Not all thoughts are equal. The notion of accidentally sinning is an oxymoron. If a sin is to be a sin, it has to be an action of your free will. Involuntary thoughts cannot be sinful. Temptations can't be sinful either. But there's a difference between being tempted, and wilfully plotting revenge in your mind.

So if you plot revenge in your mind, but then decide not to do it, do you get credit for that and cancel out the sin of plotting?

T-Shirt Ninja
09-28-2018, 09:13 PM
From my cursory knowledge of neuroscience, systems of thoughts commonly referred to as modules are competing for the conscious mind's attention. Plotting revenge and then deciding not to do it would be two modules fighting each other and one of them winning. It seems to me far more likely that God would be more concerned with which modules won out rather than which ones exist.

mattbballman31
10-19-2018, 06:57 PM
In an Inception-sense, perhaps there’s levels of subconsciousness, according to which each level is recognized as ‘conscious’ in relation to the level under it. For any two subconscious levels L1 and L2, according to which L1 is subconscious relative to L2, L1 can present an argument to L2 in such a way that L2 didn’t see it coming (since the activity of ‘seeing’ is a function of the ‘conscious’ level of experience at that particular level). This seems consistent with saying that there is a subject S who is owner of any, and every, potential subconscious level L that happened to emerge in the course of a dream, depending on the subconscious complexity that the dream exhibits.

JimL
10-19-2018, 08:46 PM
So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.

Well, isn't that true? Didn't Jesus, according to the bible, say just that, that even if you lust in your heart you have already sinned. I mean, personally I think that's dumb, but isn't that what the bible says?