Question for Roman Catholic priests encouraging Rosary prayers condemned by Christ

[Jude3b]

Dear Roman Catholics Priests: The rosary represents a form of prayer that was expressly condemned by Christ, for He said: "And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of before ye ask him" (Matt. 6:7-8)

Yet the Roman Catholic priests encourage their people to use the rosary frequently, and in giving penances after confession they often assign a certain number of Hail Marys to be said.

Roman Catholic priests, Why do you teach that?

[Jude3b]

Many define a cult as any religious group that has as authority something added to the Bible. Revelation 22:18,19 pronounces the curse of God on any one who adds to the Word of God and the same to those who take away from the Word of God. We often talk about JW's, Mormons, etc. being cults. But doesn't Roman Catholicism do the same as them in adding to or taking away from the Word of God??? Isn't it thereby a false cult?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Twilly Spree]

First by definition ALL religions are cults, just look it up in the dictionary chief.

Secondly, yes the Catholic Bible has extra books. But they were not just pulled out of a hat yesterday. They are just as old as the Bible. How the Mormons added their extra books and how Catholicism did are very different stories.

As a side note Wisdom is a beautiful book, my favorite in fact, maybe you should take the time to read it.

[spl_cadet]

And as a sidenote, that bit in Revelation refers only to the book Revelation. The Bible is a collection of books, not a book itself.

[Minnesota]

Many define a cult as any religious group that has as authority something added to the Bible.

What a very strange and self-serving definition. What kind of people are you reading, or running with these days?

[Jude3b]

Dear Spl: I've read the book of Wisdom and frankly I prefer books of the Bible instead - such as the real book of wisdom - the Proverbs! Don't forget I was steeped in the false teachings of Romanism for many, many years, just as you still are Spl!
Sincerely, Jude3b

[HRG_new]

Many define a cult as any religious group that has as authority something added to the Bible. Revelation 22:18,19 pronounces the curse of God on any one who adds to the Word of God and the same to those who take away from the Word of God. We often talk about JW's, Mormons, etc. being cults. But doesn't Roman Catholicism do the same as them in adding to or taking away from the Word of God??? Isn't it thereby a false cult?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

"Religion - heresy - cult" are just examples of irregular declension, like "go-went-gone", or "mouse - mice":

My religion
Your heresy
His cult

:P

Regards,
HRG

[rocketman]

I don't know, Jude, WIsdom 2:12-20 is really cool when you consider the Pharisees...what say you?

[Twilly Spree]

From Merriam Webster online a cult is:

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion


Just a little help.

[bar Jonah]

One should be careful about using a secular resource in defining terms that are involved in communicating the Christian view and Christian theology.

Nevertheless, on a practical level a "cult" generally refers to groups that brainwash its members and take over their lives, usually separating members from their families and friends. For example, the Local Church and the International or Boston Church of Christ aren't extremely off when it comes to doctrine. (Note: the latter's sister group, the Churches of Christ, is not a cult). They don't deny the deity of Christ or the Trinity, etc. But they control their members psychologically and take over their lives, even to the point that a member has to have permission from his "covering" or discipler (his spiritual supervisor) as to what job he may apply for, and the woman he asks out on a date. They emotionally punish anyone who shows much individuality, and encourage people to break ties with most or all other interests, such as political organizations and other clubs and associations and orgs. For example, in the Int'l/Boston Church of Christ, if you are late for church, you must have unrepentant sin in your life. Have a cold? Unrepentant sin. Car trouble? Guess what...? And you must confess that unrepentant sin. Some members get so desperate that they start just making up sins to confess, just so they can relieve the pressure to figure out what they must have done wrong.

In fact, just to show it's not particularly about doctrine... there are secular cults. Financial cults, for example, like some groups that operate under the Quixtar umbrella. I lost a close friend to Quixtar a couple years ago, as I watched her slowly get cut off from anyone in her life who wasn't just as motivated as she was to "make a million dollars." She was told she just shouldn't waste her time being with anyone who doesn't have that much material ambition. This was a wonderful Christian friend of mine. She became rapidly obsessed with the idea that she would become a "diamond" in only one year, and would have a future in "paradise" -- a tropical island vacation that diamonds can go to as a reward for their high level of success! Even though I repeatedly said I didn't want to become involved in Quixtar, she constantly pressured me to come to presentations and consider it. Looking back later after she cut herself off completely, I realized that as my friend, she hadn't wanted to have to cut me off, and that's why she wanted so badly for me to join. (Don't get me wrong, Quixtar isn't always cultic, but many people and many groups of people within it, are. I've seen it, myself.)

Even still, it's true that as an overall pattern, most pseudo-Christian cults deny two things: the deity of Christ, and the true gospel of grace, of salvation through faith and not of works. But this isn't really what defines them as a cult.

[spl_cadet]

Dear Spl: I've read the book of Wisdom and frankly I prefer books of the Bible instead - such as the real book of wisdom - the Proverbs!

I prefer Ecclesiasticus/Sirach myself.


Don't forget I was steeped in the false teachings of Romanism for many, many years, just as you still are Spl!
Sincerely, Jude3b

If you were in the false teachings, then how come you can't describe them correctly?

[bar Jonah]

No way is the Catholic Church a cult. It's no secret I have significant difference with many of their doctrines, but I think it is absurd to refer to them as a cult, in light of what I described above.

[Director of Homeland Security Ryan Dallion]

"For example, the Local Church and the International or Boston Church of Christ aren't extremely off when it comes to doctrine. (Note: the latter's sister group, the Churches of Christ, is not a cult). They don't deny the deity of Christ or the Trinity, etc."

:offtopic:really?I thought the Local Church movement's veiw of the Godhead was closer to modalism.

[bar Jonah]

"For example, the Local Church and the International or Boston Church of Christ aren't extremely off when it comes to doctrine. (Note: the latter's sister group, the Churches of Christ, is not a cult). They don't deny the deity of Christ or the Trinity, etc."

:offtopic:really?I thought the Local Church movement's veiw of the Godhead was closer to modalism.
You know what, you might be right. Can you check and confirm that for us? I would agree that non-Trinitarianism is heretical, although it doesn't quite mean that such a person isn't saved, as I don't believe a belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation. Deity of Christ, yes... but I don't believe modalism precludes being saved.

But please let us know about the Local Church, if you can look it up. I may have forgotten about that.

Thanks for the head's up, Ivo!

[Director of Homeland Security Ryan Dallion]

Okay,here's what I've benn able to find out so far,according to an entry on the Watchman Fellowship's index of cults and religions here http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#Local" "Some evangelicals have also charged that the church compromises the Trinity doctrine by confusing the Persons of the Holy Spirit and the Son in a way similar to modalism."(the Watchman Fellowship is an Evangelical discernment organization)But according to this article here http://www.rickross.com/reference/local/local2.html the Local Church claimes to affirm the Trinity.However even though they deny teaching classical modalism I'm not convinced that they don't hold to some other form of modalism.I'm somewhat unclear however from what little I've read it seems that they are charged with holding a veiw of the Godhead that while not pure modalism is closer to modalism than Classical Trinitarianism.

[Ric]

Many define a cult as any religious group that has as authority something added to the Bible. Revelation 22:18,19 pronounces the curse of God on any one who adds to the Word of God and the same to those who take away from the Word of God. We often talk about JW's, Mormons, etc. being cults. But doesn't Roman Catholicism do the same as them in adding to or taking away from the Word of God??? Isn't it thereby a false cult?
Sincerely, Jude 3b
This chart from http://www.carm.org/catholic/grid.htm shows a lot of truth to your statement.

[John Reece]

This chart from http://www.carm.org/catholic/grid.htm shows a lot of truth to your statement.

The chart presents "Catholicism" and "Christianity" as mutually exclusive. Would it not be more accurate to head the last column "Protestantism"?

[bar Jonah]

The chart presents "Catholicism" and "Christianity" as mutually exclusive. Would it not be more accurate to head the last column "Protestantism"?
No.

There are rare members of Mormonism and the Watchtower who confess and believe that Jesus is their Lord and that He rose from the dead, and they will be saved. They aren't good Mormons or JWs, but it can rarely happen. By the same token, a Catholic can be saved (and much more likely than a Mormon or JW, to boot), but will often be a poor Catholic.

This chart isn't about individuals, but about the belief systems themselves. I agree with Ric, wholeheartedly.

[Stephen]

Whether or not they're saved wouldn't change that they are a belief based upon the teachings and death of Christ, hence the term Christian. IMO

[bar Jonah]

Whether or not they're saved wouldn't change that they are a belief based upon the teachings and death of Christ, hence the term Christian. IMO
Except that they are built on the teachings of a corrupt, man-made political system, taking only parts of the Bible, and adding things to the Bible. That is not Christianity.

[spl_cadet]

There's also the problem that the chart is rather inaccurate in regards to Catholic belief. I've written refutations of several of Matt Slick's papers, and he refuses to address them.

[Twilly Spree]

RightIdea, I would say that to a certain extent ALL religions/cults are man-made.

[Jude3b]

Dear Ric: Thank you for the chart. It does seem to state the case that Romanism is a Cult and an apostate church. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Dear SpL: I've quoted the Catechism throughout our discussions for my main source on Roman Catholic doctrine. I cannot help it if you do not agree with the Catechism, no less the Word of God.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Twilly Spree]

That chart is completely biased material. I actually laughed while reading it. Examples, in the Catholic Bible there IS a source for Purgatory. And the church no longer uses the practice of indulgences. Denounced as part of a Vatican council I believe.

Jude, you seem only take out parts of the Catechism. You can twist things very easily by only including parts of statements. Where are you getting the quotes anyway?

[NoeticPenguin]

That grid is based upon a biased, prostestant mindset, and as such it derides and assails the RCC needlessly and without factual basis.

The chart specifically denies the teaching of the RCC, which is not meant to be taken in snippets from the Catechism, but rather as a whole teaching. To rip things out of context from the RCC Catechism is akin to ripping out the words of Christ and ignoring their context --Something us protestants are wont to do whenever it suits our desires-- To use that chart as "proof of apostasy" is to also ignore evidence that is very much right before our eyes. To say that the "Christian" church has "Treasures in heaven" is to ignore the Mega Church movement and the likes of Southeast Christian Church, Saddleback, and Willow Creek --all major sources of american constantian heresy--.

To even compare "Christianity" to the RCC is to willfully ignore the statements and beliefs of the RCC; statements that identify them as Christians.

Furthermore information regarding to "non-biblical teachings" is out of date, and flat out wrong. The method of Salvation information is equally flat out wrong, for the RCC teaches that Salvation is in the Church, AKA the Kingdom of God, something at is freely given as grace through faith; and is known to all by the works of faith.

As for the "Images of God used in worship / churches etc" I defy you to find me one protestant church in North America without a Thomas Kinkaide-esque portrait of the white Jesus.

I am sick, and tired of Protestants who feel they must live up to their name and protest the Roman Catholic Church. If you disagree with their theology thats fine, but don't shoot the percieved wounded! Show them the wisdom and truth of your theology with your love, and service. Apologetics that wail and whine against the RCC are a civil war inside the Kingdom of God that boils down to us forgetting that we owe our sole allegiance to Jesus and the Kingdom of God! Not to our individual protestant / RCC ideologies. Put aside the hate, and the desire to "save the Catholics" because qute frankly it only continues a war that you will not win, a battle which you cannot hope to end except through love and peace. I beg of you Jude 3b in light of the love of Christ to put aside these derisive and hateful questions and commentaries on the RCC. Instead find joy in the knowledge that despite the civil wars amoungst the citizens of the Kingdom of God; God works through us for the good of his People!

-Pkj.

[Jude3b]

Dear Twilly Spree: In almost everything that I have answered or addressed where I have quoted the Catechism, I have provided the page number and reference number of the quote. Example- "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." (The Catechism Pg. 222, #837). To be saved, one must also perform works like baptism (Page 320, #1257, plus various sacraments (Page 292, #1129) and many additional works. The Catechism Twilly actually opposes God's Word, which states that salvation cannot be earned, it is a free and undeserved gift of God: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2: 8 & 9). Twilly Spree, Which will you beleive Rome or God???

Indulgences: You say Rome has done away with them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, that a group that claims "infallible men" speak for God - says we need Indulgences in some centuries, but not anymore. Here is what the Roman Catholic church has said about indulgences in part: "Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory." (The Catechism Pg. 374, #1498)
The Bible states: "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;" (I Cor. 15:3). Twilly Spree, Which will you believe Rome or God???

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[NoeticPenguin]

Dear Twilly Spree: In almost everything that I have answered or addressed where I have quoted the Catechism, I have provided the page number and reference number of the quote. Example- "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." (The Catechism Pg. 222, #837). To be saved, one must also perform works like baptism (Page 320, #1257, plus various sacraments (Page 292, #1129) and many additional works.

Actually, your ripping quotes from the Catechism out of context, and without knowledge of what things like "charity" (which is previously defined in the Catechism) actually mean when used in that context.

One does not "perform" baptism upon oneself, but rather is given baptism by a priest. No works are required for salvation in the RCC church. How many times must people tell you this information for you to believe it?


The Catechism Twilly actually opposes God's Word, which states that salvation cannot be earned, it is a free and undeserved gift of God: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2: 8 & 9). Twilly Spree, Which will you beleive Rome or God???

One doesn't have to choose because Rome and God agree. (Even as one who grew up protestant; chosen for myself the mennonite faith; and one who struggles with finding his place in the Church, I see that Rome and God are not at odds with each other on this issue!)


Indulgences: You say Rome has done away with them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, that a group that claims "infallible men" speak for God - says we need Indulgences in some centuries, but not anymore. Here is what the Roman Catholic church has said about indulgences in part: "Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory." (The Catechism Pg. 374, #1498)

The pope is only infalable when he is speaking ex-cathedra. To my knowledge the only time papal infalabiilty has been put to use was in the ex-cathedra statement regarding the nature of Mary's Immaculate Conception (the doctrine stating that mary was born free from the burden of original sin)

Papal infalibility was long the tradition, but it wasn't until recently that it was codified and an official doctrine. As such statements made regarding indulgences before the doctrine of papal infalability do not carry the "infalable" mark.

-Pkj

[Twilly Spree]

Jude please listen to what Penguin has said. He has spoken with a great amount of conviction. Also please stop trying to "save me" I'm just fine where I am thanks.

[Ric]

The chart presents "Catholicism" and "Christianity" as mutually exclusive. Would it not be more accurate to head the last column "Protestantism"?
No. :nono:

[Ric]

There's also the problem that the chart is rather inaccurate in regards to Catholic belief. I've written refutations of several of Matt Slick's papers, and he refuses to address them.
Why would Matt need to? the Bible already proves Roman Catholicism wrongin many areas!

[Annie]

Ric - I find the chart at the end of that link offensive and misleading. Can you tell me instances of when the Catholic Church as a whole officially sanctions indulgences in this day? An educated catholic who follows the church and it's official teachings in this day and age also does not attribute any God-like qualities to Mary, mother of Jesus. Those that do are most likely following the traditions of what they were taught at home.

There needs to be some serious dialogue between the denominations. These kind of walls aren't conducive to dialogue.

As for the Apocrypha and the Book of Wisdom especially - I hear that Jesus read Wisdom.

[Ric]

Ric - I find the chart at the end of that link offensive and misleading. Can you tell me instances of when the Catholic Church as a whole officially sanctions indulgences in this day? An educated catholic who follows the church and it's official teachings in this day and age also does not attribute any God-like qualities to Mary, mother of Jesus. Those that do are most likely following the traditions of what they were taught at home.

There needs to be some serious dialogue between the denominations. These kind of walls aren't conducive to dialogue.

As for the Apocrypha and the Book of Wisdom especially - I hear that Jesus read Wisdom.
I'm not sorry if you find the truth offensive.

[Twilly Spree]

X. Indulgences

1471
The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

and

1478
An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.

There is the complete section on indulgences. Indulgences often too refers to the old practice during the reformation in which people could pay money to be absolved of sins. That was done away with a long time ago. You got yours from the summary section.

[Wesley's son]

Ric - I find the chart at the end of that link offensive and misleading. Can you tell me instances of when the Catholic Church as a whole officially sanctions indulgences in this day? An educated catholic who follows the church and it's official teachings in this day and age also does not attribute any God-like qualities to Mary, mother of Jesus. Those that do are most likely following the traditions of what they were taught at home.

There needs to be some serious dialogue between the denominations. These kind of walls aren't conducive to dialogue.

As for the Apocrypha and the Book of Wisdom especially - I hear that Jesus read Wisdom.


How does Mary hear and answer countless prayers simultaneously without having God-like qualities?

[Twilly Spree]

Jude I took the time to look up everything you quoted from the Catechism. You have completely presented those quotes out of context. Let's see shall we?

"Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." (The Catechism Pg. 222, #837).

The complete paragraph contained in the "Who Belongs to the Catholic Chruch?" section:

"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body' not ‘in heart.'"


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2: 8 & 9). Twilly Spree, Which will you beleive Rome or God???"


Looked up that verse too. It talks mostly about forgiveness. That even though we have sinned, God's mercy is great.


Well that was fun.

[Rahab]

Jude I took the time to look up everything you quoted from the Catechism. You have completely presented those quotes out of context. Let's see shall we?

"Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." (The Catechism Pg. 222, #837).

The complete paragraph contained in the "Who Belongs to the Catholic Chruch?" section:

"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body' not ‘in heart.'"


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2: 8 & 9). Twilly Spree, Which will you beleive Rome or God???"


Looked up that verse too. It talks mostly about forgiveness. That even though we have sinned, God's mercy is great.


Well that was fun.
Bonjour Twilly..... I think the ritual aspect of catholic faith may be what makes evangelicals "frown" at the claim that only salvation by Grace is indeed taught. We are ourselves divided over the necessity for baptism to be saved or the practise of tongues to exhibit the presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer (which does question salvation as the Holy Spirit being part of the Trinity could not be absent from a believer if indeed he has recieved Christ)....

And it is a fact that some practises in catholic faith seem to contradict Christ's exhortations....the use of the title of "father" for example which is to be strictly reserved for God. But IMO it does not mean that catholics do not understand the plan of salvation thru Christ.

There is a defensive response also from us as we often deal with the RCC notion that it is the only authentic church.... those outside the RCC find themselves almost pictured as heretics. There is something sectarian about the RCC.
Evangelicals have direct access to God thru Christ... our ministers and church structure is there to equip and disciple believers not so much to allow access to God. The church hierarchy does respect the concept of a direct relationship with the Father thru Christ without human mediators. Our ministers are like shepherds who guide the sheep and guard them from danger but it is " the sheep who hear His Voice".( my sheep will hear my voice).

It seems that the evangelical movement encourages more individuality in how each christian relates to Christ.

There was a time when catholics were forbidden from studying scriptures on their own. Only the church leadership was to communicate the message. Another aspect of RCC practise ( reformed now under Vatican II) which denied the ability for a catholic to understand the Word of God thru personal and individual meditation enligthened by the Holy Spirit.

The dogmatic aspect of the RCC has also been under criticism.....though among some evangelical denominations, legalism seems to prevail.

I think what is important Twilly is to refocus on the foundation of how human beings are saved and to believe heartedly that our salvation is sealed thru Christ soly.
If I have met in Italy catholics who did not have that foundation because too caught in the ritualistic aspect of conservative catholicism and mostly for not having any personal knowledge of the Biblical message, in the USA I would think that most catholics have that vital foundation. I also met charismatic catholic groups in the US who have explored New Testament teachings closely.
I also want to point to the effectiveness of catholic ministries overseas... I grew up partialy in Africa, and my memory is still moved by the scene of the Little Sisters of the Poor gathering the lepers off the streets of Dakar to take them for treatment at the local catholic medical dispensary.
They were not afraid to touch them and meant to relieve those miserable creatures from their sufferings. As Christ did.
I also remember an example of a poor blessing the poor.... in the humble fishing harbor of Pozzuoli near by Naples Italy, each evening about 6 pm, the old priest who inhabits the most destitute church I have ever seen, comes out to bless and pray for the fishermen preparing for a long night of harvesting at sea. He is Christ's presence in their difficult modest lives. They leave strengthened with the faith that God will bring fish in their nets.

[Solly]

This is quite an extensive definition of "cult", but may the Lord preserve us from one sentence definitions that enable us to cast out all and sundry.

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult

IDENTIFYING A CULT

There has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.

Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so
easy to identify one that is not even religious. For this
reason, over the years, different definitions of what actually
is a cult have developed to make it easier when you know
little about their beliefs.

The different definitions:

SECULAR DEFINITION

CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is
involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude.
This definition actually denotes what we call denominations
and sects and would make all religious movements a cult.

CHRISTIAN DEFINITION

CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox,
historical Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ;
His physical resurrection; His personal and physical return to
earth and salvation by FAITH alone.

This definition only covers those groups which are cults
within the Christian religion. It does not cover cults within
other world religions such as Islam and Hinduism. Nor does it
cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational cults which do
not recognize the Bible as a source of reality.

UNIVERSAL DEFINITION

CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian
leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming
from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be
the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full
Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform
or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their
members.

This definition covers cults within all majopr world
religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS
religious base such as commercial, educational and
psychological cults. Others may define these a little
differently, but this is the simplest to work from.

THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT'

A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not
their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of
Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the
Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not.
Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have
behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic.

This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches.
These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian
faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or
someone's particular writings. They centre around the
interpretations of the leadership and submissive and
unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member
of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider
non-essential doctrines e.i. not salvation issues (such as
the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they will be
using mind control or undue influence on their members.

An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by Dr Ronald Enroth.

Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based, Psychological, Educational and Commercial aberrations can easily be identified.

OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS

(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to
others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT -
everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL -
everyone else is in apostasy.

(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse
God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be
THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.


HOW THEY DO THIS

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or
position of authority given by God.

2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance
regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and
exalting their own group, leader/s and work.

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members
loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire
calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon;
being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital
part of the mind control process.

4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to
the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked);
signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive
methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed;
selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of
their "ministry".

At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take
up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell
literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This
gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money.

5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its
teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the
group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for
themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is
also a vital part of the mind control process.

6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private
lives of members. This control can be direct through communal
living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true
Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to
their leaders for guidance in everything they do.


7. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity
distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal.


8. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged.
Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an
emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.
This is vigilantly maintained.

9. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in
some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members
(including family) under the guise of looking out for their
"spiritual welfare".

They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception) or
give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.

10. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may
be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that
involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by
this.

Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by
other members with coercion to get them to return to the
group.


SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:-

1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY
They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to
think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what
they are told.

2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY
Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children,
parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.

3. ABUSE OF FINANCES
Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal
groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata,
not because of a lower income level, but because they are always
giving money to the group for some reason.

4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY
Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and
everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or
"unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends;
the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media
- the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any
way see such involvement as a "means to an end".

5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY
The group controls and uses almost all the members time and
energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant
state of mental and physical exhaustion.

6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL
They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and
directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will"
actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it.
This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets
and lack of sleep, or over a period of time through
intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt".

RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE

1. PERSONALITY CHANGES
Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person.
From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.

2. LOSS OF IDENTITY
They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group.
Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life.

3. PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED
Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "true Christian" or "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right".

4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION
They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for themselves when they leave.

Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders eyes. They become very naive about life in general.

5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES
They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself.

This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more guilt.


SUMMARY
Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree.


Copyright 1985 Jan Groenveld Freedom In Christ, PO Box 2444, Mansfield, 4122, Australia

Reproduction is permitted only if text is intact, not within the body of any other text, and is not sold for gain or profit. The above identifying information must be left intact.

[Twilly Spree]

Beautifully said Rahab, thank you. You have had so many more experiences than I. I mean just wow. I'm just a girl from the suburbs of Illinois. I also totally agree with you.

[bar Jonah]

As for the RCC allegedly preaching salvation by faith and not of works... Spl_Cadet is one of the most vocal Catholics here in making this claim. And yet even he has readily admitted that because I will not get water baptised, I will likely spend eternity in Hell.

A blood-washed pilgrim, a new creation in Christ, called by Him to preach His gospel on the streets and in churches, and to challenge and equip young Christians with the ability to more effectively witness and evangelize in their everyday lives. But... no water baptism? Better get some sunscreen, shipmate...

:nsm:

[Annie]

As I said earlier Wesley's Son


"There needs to be some serious dialogue between the denominations. These kind of walls aren't conducive to dialogue."

Dialogue is open-eared, open-hearted and open-minded.

As for the Apocrypha and the Book of Wisdom especially - I hear that Jesus read Wisdom."

Are there any comments on whether or not people believe that Jesus read Wisdom?

Also - why are some so sure that the apocrypha has no business being in the canon any more than some other suspect books?


"Can you tell me instances of when the Catholic Church as a whole officially sanctions indulgences in this day?

Does anyone have any instances they want us to know about?

I think the Catholic Church is struggling inwardly on many issues. Serious and open dialogue between individuals is certainly not possible as long as people hold mythical views of what the Roman Catholic viewpoint is upon certain "stick in the craw" issues.

Has no one any desire for any kind of ecumenism?

[Rev John Hansen]

Dear Annie:

BEWARE! ecuMENism AT WORK!!!

What is Ecumenism? The term "ecumenism" comes from a Greek work meaning the inhabited earth. In the Roman Catholic world it is used for a movement aiming at the eventual inclusion of all other churches and religions into the Church of Rome.

Have nothing to do with this "harlot" church. Her rejection of the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice has been brought about by the many additions she has made to the Holy Scripture.

The command and warning of God is crystal clear that the Bible must not be added to. See Deut 4:2, Proverbs 30:6, Jeremiah 23:28, Rev. 22:18. Rome adds to God's Word by adding more books to the Canonical Scriptures, known as the Apocryphal Books. These books were never received by the Jewish Church (Romans 3:2); they were never quoted by Christ; they were rejected by the Christian Fathers; and they are self-evidently not inspired. Rome also adds to the Bible ecclesiastical traditions. Rome also adds their false interpretations to Scripture. Christ warned against tradition (Matthew 15:3,6,9)

Rome stands out as a self-exposed liar and as the target of the judgments of Almighty God by her deliberate adding to the Holy Scriptures of Truth.

Love you all.........

[bar Jonah]

As I said earlier Wesley's Son


"There needs to be some serious dialogue between the denominations. These kind of walls aren't conducive to dialogue."

Dialogue is open-eared, open-hearted and open-minded.

As for the Apocrypha and the Book of Wisdom especially - I hear that Jesus read Wisdom."

Are there any comments on whether or not people believe that Jesus read Wisdom?

Also - why are some so sure that the apocrypha has no business being in the canon any more than some other suspect books?


"Can you tell me instances of when the Catholic Church as a whole officially sanctions indulgences in this day?

Does anyone have any instances they want us to know about?

I think the Catholic Church is struggling inwardly on many issues. Serious and open dialogue between individuals is certainly not possible as long as people hold mythical views of what the Roman Catholic viewpoint is upon certain "stick in the craw" issues.

Has no one any desire for any kind of ecumenism?
They dispensed many indulgences just a few years ago, for all kinds of things, including quitting smoking. :lol:

Perhaps Spl_Cadet can expound on the indulgences they offered in the late 90s and even at other times in the 20th century...

[spl_cadet]

Perhaps Spl_Cadet can expound on the indulgences they offered in the late 90s and even at other times in the 20th century...

Current indulgences according to the Handbook on Indulgences. (http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/indulge/)

[bar Jonah]

Making your point by hyperlink, Spl? C'mon, you know better than that... Can't you sum up the most prominent ones?

At quick glance, however... I see that this doesn't answer my question, anyway. This is old, from back in 1968. I was referring to more recent indulgences of the late '90s, such as quitting smoking, among other things. This was reported by AP and UPI, among many other world-wide, mainstream news sources at the time.

[rocketman]

Making your point by hyperlink, Spl? C'mon, you know better than that... Can't you sum up the most prominent ones?

At quick glance, however... I see that this doesn't answer my question, anyway. This is old, from back in 1968. I was referring to more recent indulgences of the late '90s, such as quitting smoking, among other things. This was reported by AP and UPI, among many other world-wide, mainstream news sources at the time.

Actually, I think Cadet's list is right on. I did a search for the time period you mentioned and found nothing...besides, I don't see a reason for receiving an indulgence for quitting smoking...unless while taking the action of not smoking you constantly proclaim (at least mentally) a pious invocation, which is an indulgence.

Can you proivde some evidence for something coming out in the late '90s? Like I said, I'm not finding anything on the 'Net...of course, that doesn't really mean anything either...

[elysian]

Well according to indulgence #25, I get brownie points for going on the retreat with the middle school kids (we went two weeks ago) but that might not count because it was for Lutheran kids at a Lutheran church camp. Camping with the heathens (ok, I think Vatican II says "errant brethren") probably doesn't count.

According to indulgence #12, I get brownie points for watching the Pope on TV! How many people have the Pope on DVD or TiVo, and keep rewinding him so he can bless them all day long?

According to indulgence #13, I get full brownie points for visiting a cemetery and praying for the dead from Nov. 1-8, but only partial brownie points the rest of the year.

Now I don't believe Catholicism is a cult but I do believe Luther was right about indulgences. They are man made inventions. No matter how much I watch the Pope on TV or pray for the dead or freeze my hiney off at camp with a bunch of kids, it will not gain me one more speck of favor with God. This doesn't mean spiritual disciplines are bad, but they are not done to gain favor with God but as a response to God's love for us.

[bar Jonah]

Actually, I think Cadet's list is right on. I did a search for the time period you mentioned and found nothing...besides, I don't see a reason for receiving an indulgence for quitting smoking...unless while taking the action of not smoking you constantly proclaim (at least mentally) a pious invocation, which is an indulgence.

Can you proivde some evidence for something coming out in the late '90s? Like I said, I'm not finding anything on the 'Net...of course, that doesn't really mean anything either...
Hmm, okay, so the AP and UPI and major networks -- completley independent of each other, mind you -- made up a fictional story about the RCC offering indulgences at the time, in the late '90s, for such things as quitting smoking? My Catholic boss (who loved to refer to non-Catholic heathens, ie. any Christian who isn't a Catholic, and how they are going to hell) quit smoking because of this. So I know I wasn't imagining things. So I find it very hard to believe that multiple major news media would simultaneously and independently make up such a story. :rihrm:

(And amen, Elysian!)

[Pilgrim]

Dear Annie:

BEWARE! ecuMENism AT WORK!!!

What is Ecumenism? The term "ecumenism" comes from a Greek work meaning the inhabited earth. In the Roman Catholic world it is used for a movement aiming at the eventual inclusion of all other churches and religions into the Church of Rome.

Have nothing to do with this "harlot" church. Her rejection of the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice has been brought about by the many additions she has made to the Holy Scripture.

The command and warning of God is crystal clear that the Bible must not be added to. See Deut 4:2, Proverbs 30:6, Jeremiah 23:28, Rev. 22:18. Rome adds to God's Word by adding more books to the Canonical Scriptures, known as the Apocryphal Books. These books were never received by the Jewish Church (Romans 3:2); they were never quoted by Christ; they were rejected by the Christian Fathers; and they are self-evidently not inspired. Rome also adds to the Bible ecclesiastical traditions. Rome also adds their false interpretations to Scripture. Christ warned against tradition (Matthew 15:3,6,9)

Rome stands out as a self-exposed liar and as the target of the judgments of Almighty God by her deliberate adding to the Holy Scriptures of Truth.

Love you all.........
The fact that you have placed the written word of God above the Living Word of God shows that you yourself are the one who is in danger of, or are already worshipping at the foot of an idol.

[rocketman]

1. I'm not saying you were imagining things...I simply said that I could not find a source on the internet to back it up. If you could find it, it would be helpful...but the only links I found were to the 1968 list.

2. Elysian...watching the Pope on TV is probably a lot better than most of the stuff they call "entertainment" these days...and working with kids at a church camp is certainly better than sitting around in front of a computer like I'm doing right now...and the reasom the first week of Novermber gets a plenary indulgence is because Nov. 1 is All Soul's Day...Dia de Los Muertos in Mexico. (I love the Mexicans...what better way to celebrate All Soul's Day than to mock death. :thumb:

[NoeticPenguin]

Dude, the root of "Ecumenism" is the greek word for "One Household". I don't mean to be arrogant or rude, but your understanding of Greek is, in my opinion ... shaky.

Furthermore to be of "One Household" in the Kingdom of God is not something to shy away from. We should *strive* to be together, as one family in the Kingdom of God. Even those we think are the black sheep are still family! Most of all we should work at all costs, to keep each other on the path of Love, and not of hate; To keep one another from denying the brotherhood due to stupid trivialities!

We are one in the spirit, we are one in the Lord! Let us accept that, be we RCC, Orthodox, Protestant, Anabaptist, or whatever creed we claim as our own, let us remember that we are One in Christ, and one in the Lord.

-Pkj.

[elysian]

I guess they didn't hear about the "quit smoking indulgence" at my Mom's church- they have Bingo in the basement on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday nights- and sometimes the ciggy smell from everyone smoking during Bingo even permeates the nave. My mother has asthma and she has had to point this out to the senior Pastor that the smoking is a problem because it is hard for a person with asthma to participate in Mass when they can't breathe due to the smoke smell.

I know there isn't a "no alcohol" indulgence either- or they wouldn't have a liquor license to sell beer, wine and spirits at Bingo. (There ARE Catholic tee-totalers- my mother is one- but they're rare. Too bad Mom doesn't get brownie points for that... And admittedly many Lutherans are partial to beer and wine as well... especially the Germans among us. Consumption of alcohol is not a sin, but abuse of alcohol and drunkenness is.)

My Mom used to believe the Protestant=heathen thing too, and that all Protestants were going to burn forever in Hell. She was really vociferous about this when we were little kids. (early to mid 1970's) She is an old-school Catholic, from back when Mass was said in Latin. This left me wondering as a child if my Dad and my Grandma were going to burn in Hell because they weren't Catholic like Mom. She still does the Rosaries and Novenas, etc. but she has lightened up on us "Protestant heathens." I think in Vatican II they lightened up on that a bit, and even if they didn't I think my Mom's opinion changed more when she finally realized she wasn't going to convert my Dad- he was raised Regular Baptist and is still baffled by Catholicism- and then my sister joined up with the Southern Baptists, I became a Lutheran and my other sister is Presbyterian. She's surrounded by Protestants- her best friend is a Lutheran, and most of her other friends are various Protestant denominations.

I have joked to my husband, who is an agnostic, that if he ever decided to become a Christian he should be a Catholic because he wouldn't be challenged about drinking, smoking or gambling. He could go to Bingo night to gamble, drink and smoke just like he does now at the Moose...

[elysian]

Elysian...watching the Pope on TV is probably a lot better than most of the stuff they call "entertainment" these days...and working with kids at a church camp is certainly better than sitting around in front of a computer like I'm doing right now...and the reasom the first week of Novermber gets a plenary indulgence is because Nov. 1 is All Soul's Day...Dia de Los Muertos in Mexico. (I love the Mexicans...what better way to celebrate All Soul's Day than to mock death.

I agree that watching the Pope is a lot better than watching much of the tripe on TV today- though I may disagree with some points of Catholic teaching I do believe John Paul II is a man of God- just as I believe the Pastors of my home church are men of God.

Yes, I had a great time praising God, worshipping God and studying Scripture with the middle school youth. The adults are edified by it just as much as the kids are. (and it is OK to serve the Lord and have fun at the same time!)

Lutherans also celebrate the church year including the seasons of Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter and Pentecost (we are liturgical as Roman Catholics are) and we also observe All Saints' Day on Nov. 1. Our observance is slightly different than the Catholic one though, as on All Saints' Day we thank God for His witness and work through the departed believers who have gone before us in death. Our interpretation of the term "saint" means each Christian believer, as we are all justified and sanctified in Christ. We do not pray to or for the dead.

I've always been fascinated by the Dia de los Muertos as well. Why not mock death? For Christians it isn't permanent!

:wink:

[rocketman]

Whoops...my mistake. Elysian, you are correct, All SAINTS' Day is November 1...All SOULS' Day is November 2. So we do have separate days for those we know specifically are in Heaven and for all departed souls in general.

[Twilly Spree]

I've always said I'm the perfect drinker an Irish, German, and Polish Roman Catholic. :teeth:

[Jude3b]

Any religion that denies the essential doctrine that Salvation is by Grace would qualify as a cult.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Ric]

Any religion that denies the essential doctrine that Salvation is by Grace would qualify as a cult.
Sincerely, Jude 3b
So true!

[bar Jonah]

So true!
Most Christians (and I mean those truly saved, not the posers, the Jesusians and the Churchians) don't truly understand the real Gospel of Grace. Granted, most of them will mouth the words "gospel of grace" but turn around and say you have to do X and Y and Z to get to Heaven. Are these Baptists and Presbyterians and such... cultists? Of course not.

Paul does not say a person has to know they are saved by grace, in order to be saved by grace. He says one has to confess and believe that Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead. No more, no less. If a person fits that description, they ARE saved. Even if they believe in works-based righteousness.

Bad doctrine doesn't make a cult, as I already pointed out. Brainwashing and controlling behavior makes a cult.

[Jude3b]

Many, Many verses point out that it is "by grace" and "by grace" alone that we can be saved. If they believe in a works based righteousness - than they are not believing the true Gospel of Grace or on the same Jesus that is the Lord which is spoken of in chapter 10 of Romans. Paul did say to belive "ON" the Lord Jesus Christ. On means to fully trust in His finished work alone - not on any religious works that we have done. If you don't have the Jesus of the Bible and the salvation by grace as spoken of in the Bible, than your religion qualifies as a Cult to me.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[rocketman]

FYI...Pelagianism (we can save ourselves) was condemned in the 5th century.

[bar Jonah]

Many, Many verses point out that it is "by grace" and "by grace" alone that we can be saved. If they believe in a works based righteousness - than they are not believing the true Gospel of Grace or on the same Jesus that is the Lord which is spoken of in chapter 10 of Romans. Paul did say to belive "ON" the Lord Jesus Christ. On means to fully trust in His finished work alone - not on any religious works that we have done. If you don't have the Jesus of the Bible and the salvation by grace as spoken of in the Bible, than your religion qualifies as a Cult to me.

Sincerely, Jude 3b
Who here disputes this? I don't know of anyone who does? :nsm:

[Jude3b]

Dear Right Idea:
There are people replying who believe and practice sacramentalism in addition to grace. In other words that have to have grace plus (sacraments, religious works). Just read the replys from some of the contributors and you will see that.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[spl_cadet]

Dear Right Idea:
There are people replying who believe and practice sacramentalism in addition to grace. In other words that have to have grace plus (sacraments, religious works). Just read the replys from some of the contributors and you will see that.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

A sacrament is merely a physical means through which grace is conferred.

[Ric]

Most Christians (and I mean those truly saved, not the posers, the Jesusians and the Churchians) don't truly understand the real Gospel of Grace. Granted, most of them will mouth the words "gospel of grace" but turn around and say you have to do X and Y and Z to get to Heaven. Are these Baptists and Presbyterians and such... cultists? Of course not.

Paul does not say a person has to know they are saved by grace, in order to be saved by grace. He says one has to confess and believe that Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead. No more, no less. If a person fits that description, they ARE saved. Even if they believe in works-based righteousness.

Bad doctrine doesn't make a cult, as I already pointed out. Brainwashing and controlling behavior makes a cult.
Thank you for your post, and I agree with almost all of it!

Where I disagree is where any religious group that has doctrine that leads people astray from true salvation in Christ alone is a group of false teachers.

I am not calling the Roman Catholic church an outright cult, but the Roman Catholic church does have cultlike teachings that does lead people astray.

I do believe that there are many saved people in the Roman Catholic system, but there are far more in the Roman Catholic church that are in need of the Saving Grace of Christ that don't know that they are not saved (same goes with any Christian denomionation too).

God Bless!

[Jude3b]

Dear Ric:
I agree there are probably some saved Roman Catholics. However they are saved because of their personal relationship with the all sufficient savior, the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. They are saved in spite of the the teachings of Romanism - which teaches another Gospel, a Gospel that adds faith plus works (infant baptism, etc.) and only the possibility of ever going to heaven, after the burnoff in purgatory. If they state otherwise the Roman Catholic church says they are guilty of "presumption" and that is a sin also - if you are a Roman Catholic. All we can do my brother is pray that our Roman Catholic friends will read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit speak to them. God's Word will not return unto Him void. Amen.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[bar Jonah]

Dear Ric:
I agree there are probably some saved Roman Catholics. However they are saved because of their personal relationship with the all sufficient savior, the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. They are saved in spite of the the teachings of Romanism - which teaches another Gospel, a Gospel that adds faith plus works (infant baptism, etc.) and only the possibility of ever going to heaven, after the burnoff in purgatory. If they state otherwise the Roman Catholic church says they are guilty of "presumption" and that is a sin also - if you are a Roman Catholic. All we can do my brother is pray that our Roman Catholic friends will read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit speak to them. God's Word will not return unto Him void. Amen.
Sincerely, Jude 3b
Well said, Jude. Thank you. :rithumb:

[Ric]

Dear Ric:
I agree there are probably some saved Roman Catholics. However they are saved because of their personal relationship with the all sufficient savior, the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. They are saved in spite of the the teachings of Romanism - which teaches another Gospel, a Gospel that adds faith plus works (infant baptism, etc.) and only the possibility of ever going to heaven, after the burnoff in purgatory. If they state otherwise the Roman Catholic church says they are guilty of "presumption" and that is a sin also - if you are a Roman Catholic. All we can do my brother is pray that our Roman Catholic friends will read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit speak to them. God's Word will not return unto Him void. Amen.
Sincerely, Jude 3b
And all of God's Children said, "AMEN!" :pray: (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1#)

[Jude3b]

Dear Ric: Thanks for your reply. Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Ric]

Dear Ric: Thanks for your reply. Sincerely, Jude 3b
Anytime! :smile:

:bump:

[Jude3b]

Jesus purchased the church of God, the ekklesia with His own blood. He did not purchase Religious groups such as Romanism, Protestantism, Mormonism:
"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28).

[Pilgrim]

Jesus purchased the church of God, the ekklesia with His own blood. He did not purchase Religious groups such as Romanism, Protestantism, Mormonism:
"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28).
Skip....skip...skip....skip....

Someone needs to smack the record player!

[bar Jonah]

Jude, I'm on your side in this issue, bro... but Pilgrim is right. You have to make a better case than that. The verse you just cited in no way prove the point of your post.

:shrug:

[Jude3b]

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith (real Bible faith - beleving ON Jesus Christ for salvation - not trusting in man made religion), giving heed to deceiving (religious) spirits and doctrines of demons (salvation by works). Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, Forbidding to marry (priests and nuns), and commanding to abstain from food (during lent, etc) which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth (of the Gospel of Salvation by Grace through faith)." (I Tim. 4:1-3).

[Jude3b]

God offers His children this invitation: "And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." (Psalm 50:15)

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Phil. 4:6-7)

[Jude3b]

The Bible condemns Roman Catholicism's form of prayer, and the Roman Catholic church condemns the Biblical form of prayer. Obviously, you must choose sides on this issue.

[Jude3b]

Jesus Christ sets people free. Roman Catholicism brings people into bondage, just like any false cult does.

[bar Jonah]

Again, I categorically reject the label of "cult" for the RCC. They are heretical and antichrist, but not a cult. There's a huge difference. Nevertheless, they certainly do put people under the bondage of the Law rather than under grace.

[Columba]

Again, I categorically reject the label of "cult" for the RCC. They are heretical and antichrist, but not a cult. There's a huge difference. Nevertheless, they certainly do put people under the bondage of the Law rather than under grace.I hope I don't get in trouble for this because I'm new here. But it really seems to me, after reading all these posts, that the same problem with the LDS applies here. (I have LDS relatives and they drive me crazy with their stuff.)

The OP here, states that the RCC is a cult. The LDS (clearly a cult) claim that the early church apostasized and that a "restoration" was necessary.

Well, since I'm E. Orthodox, my response has to be: Is Jesus a liar, or not????
He said,
Matthew 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter,[1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+16:18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_117158154_1)] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+16:18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_117158154_2)] will not overcome it.[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+16:18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_117158154_3)]

The Orthodox churches were founded, along with the church in Rome right after the Resurrection and Pentecost.
"So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." Acts 11:26

The Protestant Reformation didn't happen until M. Luther decided that he saw various abuses in the RCC. And he didn't even want to be a "protester". He wanted to remain a Catholic and reform the Church from within.

So if you guys think that there was some sort of apostacy, then Jesus should never have been trusted to select the Apostles. Why would he choose people who could not be trusted to hang on for dear life to the keys of heaven, and pass on the teaching from Him???? If God can't even protect the church that He himself founded, why should anyone believe in Christianity???

Personally, I think you should re-think all this Catholic bashing. I'm not wanting to argue or bash you guys, but I reallly think that you need to re-examine all of this through history and be a little more charitable to your Christian brothers and sisters.

If you are interested in church history, then may I suggest the following book:
The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware.

I truly don't want to offend anyone here and I hope to make friends here. But I think many of you need to study church history.

[Twilly Spree]

Personally, I think you should re-think all this Catholic bashing. I'm not wanting to argue or bash you guys, but I reallly think that you need to re-examine all of this through history and be a little more charitable to your Christian brothers and sisters.

Thanks Columba! I said that a long time ago in one of these Catholic threads.

[Ric]

Again, I categorically reject the label of "cult" for the RCC. They are heretical and antichrist, but not a cult. There's a huge difference. Nevertheless, they certainly do put people under the bondage of the Law rather than under grace.

Hi RightIdea,

My wife is an ex-roman catholic, and the stories of "guilt" and other such "control" methods she has told me about are quite scary. I do agree that the RCC is not a full fledged cult, but I do believe the RCC is "cult like" in some of her ways and teachings.

[Columba]

Hi RightIdea,

My wife is an ex-roman catholic, and the stories of "guilt" and other such "control" methods she has told me about are quite scary. I do agree that the RCC is not a full fledged cult, but I do believe the RCC is "cult like" in some of her ways and teachings.
Anecdotal evidence is rarely a good basis for any belief.

[Ric]

Anecdotal evidence is rarely a good basis for any belief.

There is no observation whatsoever on my wife's part about Roman Catholicism, she was a "cradle catholic" and went through all twelve grades of school in Roman Catholic schools.

:rcc:

Anecdotal evidence is rarely a good basis for any accusation.

[Columba]

And all of God's Children said, "AMEN!" :pray: (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1#)

Sorry, since when were you two appointed and annointed by God to establish whether or not anyone is "saved". According to you guys, following your logic, millions and millions of people who died for the faith up until the Protestant Reformation were "unsaved" because the doctrine of "salvation by grace/faith alone" hadn't been invented yet. Good luck with that logic.

And thanks very much for damning me to hell also, with that logic. I deeply appreciate knowing that you are wiser than those who have preserved Christianity and the Bible for you to bash me over the head with it.
Additionally, may I say that your brand of Christianity is exactly what atheists and non-believers love to combat? It really isn't "Christianity" that they object to. It's Protestantism, it's spurious claims and it's shaky historical foundation.

[Ric]

Sorry, since when were you two appointed and annointed by God to establish whether or not anyone is "saved". According to you guys, following your logic, millions and millions of people who died for the faith up until the Protestant Reformation were "unsaved" because the doctrine of "salvation by grace/faith alone" hadn't been invented yet. Good luck with that logic.

And thanks very much for damning me to hell also, with that logic. I deeply appreciate knowing that you are wiser than those who have preserved Christianity and the Bible for you to bash me over the head with it.
Additionally, may I say that your brand of Christianity is exactly what atheists and non-believers love to combat? It really isn't "Christianity" that they object to. It's Protestantism, it's spurious claims and it's shaky historical foundation.

:nono: Here we go again! :nono:

Please point out where I ever claimed anyone to be saved or not!
I am SICK and TIRED of FALSE ACCUSATIONS being tossed without thought!

BTW, don't worry about my "brand of Christianity" - because I don't have a "brand"! My relationship with God is between God and me! If you want to talk about "brands of Christianity", then stick with a man made religion which ignores God's gift which is "salvation by grace/faith/Christ alone"!

[Columba]

:nono: Here we go again! :nono:

Please point out where I ever claimed anyone to be saved or not!
I am SICK and TIRED of FALSE ACCUSATIONS being tossed without thought!

BTW, don't worry about my "brand of Christianity" - because I don't have a "brand"! My relationship with God is between God and me! If you want to talk about "brands of Christianity", then stick with a man made religion which ignores God's gift which is "salvation by grace/faith/Christ alone"!
Okay. You started it. I didn't. God's "gift" of salvation by grace/faith/Christ alone" did not start until the Reformation, circa 1530. (for a round about date). And let me object to this thread again: A great many of you Protestants, have, thorughout this thread said "...some Catholics are saved..." Who the hey made YOU the judge and jury on the Last Judgement??? Your logic is full of holes and you are just as guilty as all those that Christ preached against (the Pharisees)...Is that a speck I see in your eye????

Mark 3
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Who are you, to decide where the Holy Spirit is and where He isn't???? Who gave you that authority????
This isn't "liberalism"...this is Orthodox Christianity established in 33 AD.
(Yeah...a bold claim I know...check it out and do some legitimate research for a change instead of using bumpersticker philosophy)

Luke 6
36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

You guys, in this thread and others, who have condemned your brothers based on man made traditions, have a long row to hoe.


"

[kofh2u]

I hope I don't get in trouble for this because I'm new here. But it really seems to me, after reading all these posts, that the same problem with the LDS applies here. (I have LDS relatives and they drive me crazy with their stuff.)

The OP here, states that the RCC is a cult. The LDS (clearly a cult) claim that the early church apostasized and that a "restoration" was necessary.

Well, since I'm E. Orthodox, my response has to be: Is Jesus a liar, or not????
He said,
Matthew 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter,[1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+16:18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_117158154_1)] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+16:18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_117158154_2)] will not overcome it.[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+16:18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_117158154_3)]

The Orthodox churches were founded, along with the church in Rome right after the Resurrection and Pentecost.
"So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." Acts 11:26

The Protestant Reformation didn't happen until M. Luther decided that he saw various abuses in the RCC. And he didn't even want to be a "protester". He wanted to remain a Catholic and reform the Church from within.

So if you guys think that there was some sort of apostacy, then Jesus should never have been trusted to select the Apostles. Why would he choose people who could not be trusted to hang on for dear life to the keys of heaven, and pass on the teaching from Him???? If God can't even protect the church that He himself founded, why should anyone believe in Christianity???

Personally, I think you should re-think all this Catholic bashing. I'm not wanting to argue or bash you guys, but I reallly think that you need to re-examine all of this through history and be a little more charitable to your Christian brothers and sisters.

If you are interested in church history, then may I suggest the following book:
The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware.

I truly don't want to offend anyone here and I hope to make friends here. But I think many of you need to study church history.

The RCC is still in the ball game, its all clearly in scripture!


Rev. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in the time of The Reformed
Catholic Church which have not forgotten that the Scriptures concern the inner kingdom of our mind; and they shall support with scripture in a renewed insight written on white pages which is to come: for they are complementary to the predicted reconstructionism.

Rev. 3:5 He who sublimates beyond the common scriptural
misunderstandings, the same shall be liken to a new page of history; and I will not blot out his name in the next human evolutionary step forward, but I will recognize him as a Homoiousian before the Universe,
and before the seven transcendent archetypes of our human mind.

[Columba]

Your quotes are a little strange in my translation, but :


Ain't dat da troot! Although the
E.O and the RCC have major differences, I do not consider myself wiser than those who have gone before me, nor wiser, than those who kept the Church together for a very long time, before the schism. Our Protestant brothers and sisters, here however, seem to feel that they are so wise, they can even speculate as to who is "saved" and "unsaved".

[Ric]

Okay. You started it. I didn't. God's "gift" of salvation by grace/faith/Christ alone" did not start until the Reformation, circa 1530. (for a round about date). And let me object to this thread again: A great many of you Protestants, have, thorughout this thread said "...some Catholics are saved..." Who the hey made YOU the judge and jury on the Last Judgement??? Your logic is full of holes and you are just as guilty as all those that Christ preached against (the Pharisees)...Is that a speck I see in your eye????

Mark 3
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Who are you, to decide where the Holy Spirit is and where He isn't???? Who gave you that authority????
This isn't "liberalism"...this is Orthodox Christianity established in 33 AD.
(Yeah...a bold claim I know...check it out and do some legitimate research for a change instead of using bumpersticker philosophy)

Luke 6
36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

You guys, in this thread and others, who have condemned your brothers based on man made traditions, have a long row to hoe.


"


I started what??? :???:

What is wrong with saying that I believe that some Roman Catholics are truly saved??? There are like it or not! The same applies to Protestants! Get over it! Does the truth hurt that much???

If you ever read your Bible (in context) you would know that the whole Bible is tells us about salvation in Christ alone!

BTW, you do not want to be throwing passages around like that without reading them in their proper context! (Just some friendly advice)

[Columba]

Ric,

Salvation by grace/faith/Christ alone was never part of Patristic teaching. They are the ones who have preserved the Bible for you...are they "saved" or not???
You keep speculating on who is saved "...some Roman Catholics are saved"...where did you get that authority. Stick to the issuel.

[Columba]

P.S: You'll be amused to know that those passages are considered "in context" by Bible Gateway, the PROTESTANT Bible link on this site. Additionally, I used the NIV version for clarity with you Protestants, since I know that you really don't like the Orthodox version.

[Columba]

Also, Ric, thanks for the negative point on my "reputation". I count it as grace.

[Twilly Spree]

Ric...people always seem to be accusing you of doing the whole "who is saved thing" it happened on another thread too. I just find it odd.

I went through 9 levels of Catholic school I don't know what brainwashing seem to be talking about.

[Columba]

"You must spread some reputation around before you give it to Twily again."''

Where am I gonna find another like you??? O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on Twilly!
:)
Thanks...I've read thru a bunch of stuff and you're right...

[kofh2u]

Your quotes are a little strange in my translation, but :


Ain't dat da troot! Although the
E.O and the RCC have major differences, I do not consider myself wiser than those who have gone before me, nor wiser, than those who kept the Church together for a very long time, before the schism. Our Protestant brothers and sisters, here however, seem to feel that they are so wise, they can even speculate as to who is "saved" and "unsaved".

They mean well. At least, they have read the scriptures.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

As in the day of the Lord, there are those who sit in the seat of Moses. They forget the words against this, and they judge as they see it.

Yet, they are without reply concerning 100's of questions, all mysteries to be unlocked, that only the key given to Peter can answer.

Isa. 43:9 Let the twelve Major Christian Denominations be gathered together, and let the Christian membership be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be
justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.


They imagine wild ideas about the Urim and Thummim with any concrete scriptural support.
.
They have no clue why the New Jeruusalem is a very large geometric cube.

They have no ideas concerning the iron tod by which he will rule the nations.

They avoid a heaven and an earth without the sea.

There is only faith, no reasonale explanation for the end to death and pain.

The hidden manna is rarely mentioned, though promised to us.

None can tell nor offer rational hypothesis why he "holds seven stars in his right hand."

They skip over the baptism of fire using the "fan in his hand."

Matt. 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is
one that accuseth you, even Moses (because the key is a contrivance to be found in the Torah), in whom ye trust.

[Jude3b]

Jesus said, "I will build my church." We also ready in a number of places that the church is the body of Christ. It is the church of God. The church does not belong to Rome, therefore Roman Catholicism is a false cult, an anti-Christ.

[Columba]

Jude,

Your argument falls apart, when we consider this: Jesus was speaking to Peter, not to you . He said "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church...."

He gave the authority to Peter and to the Apostles by laying hands on them, they had the authority to lay hands on others (which they did) to evangelize and spread the good news. If Peter couldn't be trusted, indeed, if all of them just spread a bunch of bunk, why did Jesus trust them in the first place? Why not choose better people. The Roman Church, along with the Orthodox churches which were founded have existed since the beginning. St. James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem.

If you believe that doctrinal development had to take place, that the early churches including Rome, and the Orthodox were just all apostate from the beginning, and that it took 1500 years for God to perfect the doctrine, then the Apostles aren't "saved" either. If you believe that the early church had a "protestant view" of salvation by grace/faith/ alone, you are just not dealing with reality.

If you believe that God did not establish the true churches from the beginning, and couldn't even protect them with the Holy Spirit throughout 2000 years, your God is pretty weak and your entire theology needs questioning.

Give us a break here...your argument is so totally flawed and you cannot back it up with any reasonable historical sources or scripture that doesn't resemble a game of Twister.

What you guys have posted in this thread is offensive but more than that it's just plain sad that some Protestants do not read their history books and in their fiery zeal, proceed to condemn millions of people to "hell" with an authority they do not possess.

[Jude3b]

"... thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (the church of God, the body of Christ); and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18).

Romanism contends that the Lord was referring to Peter as the rock. All other pertinent Scriptures declare that Jesus was referring to Himself as the rock, not Peter:
".... for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (I Corinthians 10:4)
Jesus is not only the rock, He is the chief cornerstone of the church of God:
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;" (Ephesians 2:20)
"For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God" (Psalm 18:31)

Offensive, yes indeed - false religion claiming to be the church of God is very offensive! Sinful fallible men claiming authority in place of the Word of God is very offensive!

[Jezz]

Offensive, yes indeed - false religion claiming to be the church of God is very offensive! Sinful fallible men claiming authority in place of the Word of God is very offensive!
...said the sinful, fallible man claiming to have the one true, infallible interpretation of the Word of God... :lmbo:

[Ric]

Ric...people always seem to be accusing you of doing the whole "who is saved thing" it happened on another thread too. I just find it odd.

I went through 9 levels of Catholic school I don't know what brainwashing seem to be talking about.

Nope, only people who are following a false gospel make the accusions!
:rcc:

[kofh2u]

...said the sinful, fallible man claiming to have the one true, infallible interpretation of the Word of God... :lmbo:



The specific inclusion of the RCC as one of the denominational stages of growth within the whole of the Christian body of Christ is both supported in scripture and criticized:

Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because
thou tolerate a sexual deviant sect, which calleth herself a proclaimer
of the doctrine of celibacy, to teach and to seduce my congregators to accept an institutionalized enculturation, and to engage in pedophilia and sodomies.

Rev. 2:21 And I gave this sect within the Universal Catholic Church
400 years to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

[Jezz]

There are rare members of Mormonism and the Watchtower who confess and believe that Jesus is their Lord and that He rose from the dead, and they will be saved. They aren't good Mormons or JWs, but it can rarely happen.
I don't know enough about Mormonism to comment authoritatively on this issue, so I will refrain. However, I do know a great deal about the JWs, and the way you have represented the Watchtower association is completely incorrect (common misconceptions to be sure, but incorrect nonetheless).

What you wrote above implies that the official Watchtower teaching denies that Jesus is their Lord, that He rose from the dead, and that He is our saviour. All of these claims are false. The Watchtower acknowledges Jesus as Lord, they acknowledge the resurrection, and they acknowledge that Jesus died to save mankind from their sins - they always have taught this. And all good JWs believe all of these things.

The Watchtower have a few strange ideas which puts them very much on the fringe of orthodoxy, but primarily what makes them a heretical group is two things:

1. Arianism - that is, they deny that the Word of God is eternal. A necessary consequence of this is that they deny the deity of Christ.
2. They deny the personality of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is considered to be God's "impersonal force".

Can JWs be saved in spite of these heresies? Of course they can. God can save whomever He wills. Will they be saved? That's not for me to judge.

By the same token, a Catholic can be saved (and much more likely than a Mormon or JW, to boot), but will often be a poor Catholic.

This chart isn't about individuals, but about the belief systems themselves. I agree with Ric, wholeheartedly.
It's not even about the Catholic belief system. It's about a cariacature of the belief system (much as you cariacatured the Watchtower). To be fair, many Catholics are cariactures of their own position, and some things I think that even those that aren't cariactures are a bit confused about (no more confused than many of the anti-Catholic posters here, mind you). Does this mean that they can't be saved? Of course not. God can save whomever He wills. Will they be saved? That's not for me to judge. Nor is it for anyone here to judge. There is only one Judge, and I wouldn't dare try and usurp His authority.

[Jude3b]

...said the sinful, fallible man claiming to have the one true, infallible interpretation of the Word of God... :lmbo:

The Word of God does not need to be interpreted. We are supposed to believe it, not interpret it. Religionists need to "interpret" it so they can try to make it line up with their false doctrines of their false religions.

[bar Jonah]

If I believe that Jesus is an English lord, and that he rose from the dead... will I be saved?

Ridiculous, right?

So is their belief -- that Jesus is not THE LORD. That is, that He is not YHWH. That He is not Adonai. HaShem. That He is not God. Flying in the face of copious scripture.

Saying that He is some kind of "lord" doesn't confess who He really is. The Lord our God is One. Their "lord" is not God. They worship a created being, and this is idol worship.

[Jezz]

The Word of God does not need to be interpreted.
If by "Word of God", you mean the eternal Logos - the 2nd person of the Trinity, then yes I agree.

But if you mean the Bible (which I suspect that you do), then this is rubbish. Any written document needs to be interpreted. The process of understanding the Bible is a process of interpreting it. Without interpretation, the Bible is just random squiggles on a page.

Do you read ancient Greek? I suspect not. Which means you've likely only ever read an English translation of the Bible. Which means you've only ever read an interpretation of the Bible. Note that different translations are often slightly different. That's because the translators had different interpretations of certain passages.

We are supposed to believe it, not interpret it.
There can be no belief without comprehension. And as per above, there be no comprehension without interpretation.

Religionists need to "interpret" it so they can try to make it line up with their false doctrines of their false religions.
No, everyone needs to intepret it, and some (many) interpret it wrong. They interpret it wrong because they make the mistake of thinking that it doesn't need to be interpreted.

Here's a challenge for you, Jude: Find me a passage in the Bible which tells you that the Bible does not need to be interpreted. 5 pearls if you can find one.

[Jezz]

If I believe that Jesus is an English lord, and that he rose from the dead... will I be saved?
Such a person would indeed be in danger, but nevertheless perhaps God will save him. God can save whomever He wills. That is not for me to judge.

Ridiculous, right?
On the face of it, yes. But, lots of things that God does seem ridiculous to my comparatively feeble mind. If God decides to save such a person, who am I to judge Him?

So is their belief -- that Jesus is not THE LORD. That is, that He is not YHWH. That He is not Adonai. HaShem. That He is not God. Flying in the face of copious scripture.

Saying that He is some kind of "lord" doesn't confess who He really is. The Lord our God is One. Their "lord" is not God.
Indeed, the JWs have some strange ideas about Jesus and God, and I do believe that they have interpreted the scriptures incorrectly. This certainly puts a strain on their relationship with God. Does it do irreparable damage? Only God knows.

They worship a created being, and this is idol worship.
Again, you have your facts wrong. Please, get your facts straight before tearing into a rival group like this. In this day and age of the internet, there's not much excuse for attacking a person/group's beliefs in ignorance. Go to a JW site to find out - don't rely on CARM or some site like it.

They don't worship Jesus, precisely because they believe he was a created being, and that he was not God. Despite their heretical theology, and strange ideas, the JWs have an extreme reverence for God.

[VFarris01]

Dear Columba,

You appear to have arrived in this thread wanting to cause trouble. Never the less, here is my understanding of Matthew 16:18 and the Rock of Christ.

Concerning Matthew 16:16-19 from Vicars of Christ.

There is, however, another interpretation of this text with a better pedigree than most Catholics realize. It may jolt them to hear that the great Fathers of the church saw no connection between it and the pope. Not one of them applies ‘Thou art Peter’ to anyone but Peter. One after another they analyze it: Cyprian, Origen, Cyril, Hilary, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine. They are not exactly Protestants. Not one of them calls the Bishop of Rome a Rock or applies to him specifically the promise of the Keys. This is as staggering to Catholics as if they were to find no mention in the Fathers of the Holy Spirit or the resurrection of the dead. The great pun, the play on words, was applied exclusively to Peter.

The surprises do not stop there. For the Fathers, it is Peter’s faith – or the Lord in whom Peter has faith – which is called the Rock, not Peter. All the Councils of the church from Nicaea in the fourth century to Constance in the fifteenth agree that Christ himself is the only foundation of the church, that is, the Rock on which the church rests.

Perhaps this is why not one of the Fathers speaks of a transference of power from Peter to those who succeed him; not one speaks, as church documents do today, of an ‘inheritance.’ There is no hint of an abiding Petrine office. In so far as the Fathers speak of an office, the reference is to the episcopate in general. All bishops are successors to all the Apostles.

[bar Jonah]

VFarris, right on!

Except that I certainly do agree Christ gave the keys to Peter. It's just that... keys aren't a symbol of authority to declare doctrine or lead. Keys are symbolic of ... what?

Unlocking doors that have been locked. And locking doors that were open. Closing off the active dispensation that Christ preached in His earthly gospel because Israel failed her election .... and unlocking the door to Paul's authority to found the church as we know it, while Peter and James were relegated to going only to the believing Jews of their day who were saved before Paul.

A new direction, a new door of Paul's unique Mystery of the Body of Christ, which is mentioned by no one in the entire Bible except Paul.

The keys were necessary, because Christ knew if Israel failed her election, someone had to have the authority to "pass the torch" to the person who would lead a different direction. Paul, having been the Torquemada of Judea, couldn't have taken over going to the world unless someone had the authority to unlock that door. That was Peter's responsibility.

James headed the Church. Not Peter. Peter had a different role.

[spl_cadet]

Except that I certainly do agree Christ gave the keys to Peter. It's just that... keys aren't a symbol of authority to declare doctrine or lead. Keys are symbolic of ... what?

Nope. It was an allusion Isaiah 22. Back then the keys were a sign of power and authority.

And VFarris:

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’?" Tertullian Demurrer Against the Heretics 22

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" Letter of Clement to James 2

[bar Jonah]

Authority to do what? To open and close doors. Not general leadership. And there is nothing in Isaiah 22 about binding things in heaven as they are bound on earth, loosing things in heaven as they are loosed on earth, etc.

Gee, amazingly Jesus uses a metaphor of a key to bind and loose something. And rightfully so, having warned the apostles that Israel has but one more year left before she is cut off from God. Knowing the impending critical time, and knowing Israel may succeed or may fail.

Peter did indeed have authority. To lock one door, and unlock another. Jesus gave him a key, not a scepter or crown. The crown is the symbol of true head leadership, even among the Hebrew people. You know that.

[spl_cadet]

Authority to do what? To open and close doors. Not general leadership. And there is nothing in Isaiah 22 about binding things in heaven as they are bound on earth, loosing things in heaven as they are loosed on earth, etc.

Gee, amazingly Jesus uses a metaphor of a key to bind and loose something. And rightfully so, having warned the apostles that Israel has but one more year left before she is cut off from God. Knowing the impending critical time, and knowing Israel may succeed or may fail.

Peter did indeed have authority. To lock one door, and unlock another. Jesus gave him a key, not a scepter or crown. The crown is the symbol of true head leadership, even among the Hebrew people. You know that.

The keys however are the sign of the head servant.
"Whoever wants to be first must be slave of all." Mark 10:44

[bar Jonah]

Yep! Thank you. The head steward ("oikonomos") of the household, who is in charge of the stewardship (or dispensation, "oikonomia") of the affairs of that household.

Unfortunately, Peter's stewardship ended when Paul's began. Paul assumed the stewardship of the Body of Christ, when God set aside Israel and Peter's Great Commission. Paul says he is tasked with the stewardship of this dispensation of God's grace! How can this be the case, if Peter still has the keys at that point?

[VFarris01]

Folks, my intention is not to get off on another subject, for the real concern of this thread is, is Catholicism a cult. Very simply, I do not believe the RCC is a cult in the colloquial sense of the word. Do we all consider the Branch Davidians and the People’s Temple to be cults? If so, the RCC cannot be. However, I DO NOT believe the RCC to be the institution set up by Jesus.

I would like to explore the meaning of Matthew 16:13-20 and how I believe the RCC has misconstrued simple language to mean something it does not. Is a new thread called for? Does one already exist?

[spl_cadet]

Yep! Thank you. The head steward ("oikonomos") of the household, who is in charge of the stewardship (or dispensation, "oikonomia") of the affairs of that household.

Unfortunately, Peter's stewardship ended when Paul's began. Paul assumed the stewardship of the Body of Christ, when God set aside Israel and Peter's Great Commission. Paul says he is tasked with the stewardship of this dispensation of God's grace! How can this be the case, if Peter still has the keys at that point?

Verse please?


Is a new thread called for?

Yup. May be awhile before I respond to it though. Bit tired of arguing at the moment and I'll be busy Tuesday.

[bar Jonah]

Verse please?

Ephesians 3:1-2
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles -- if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the fellowship [stewardship, dispensation] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished