Mary "Queen of all things?"

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholicism insists that the Lord elevated Mary to the rank of "Queen of all things." Yet, the Bible proclaims that worshipping a "Queen of heaven" provokes God to anger (Jeremiah 7:18).

Has Roman Catholicism handed down the same pagan ritual that infuriates God, like we read about in Jeremiah?

[goldenchild]

Of course not! Duh. We would be however, if we were worshipping Mary the Queen of Heaven. She is the queen of heaven as scripture eludes to, but she is not to be worshipped. However, some do. They are not representing the Catholic Faith accurately.

[rocketman]

You know Jude, contrary to popular belief, the Sign of the Cross does not go "In the name of the Father and the Son and the Virgin Mother"...

[Twilly Spree]

Hahaha, excellent point Rocketman.....

[Ric]

Roman Catholicism insists that the Lord elevated Mary to the rank of "Queen of all things." Yet, the Bible proclaims that worshipping a "Queen of heaven" provokes God to anger (Jeremiah 7:18).

Has Roman Catholicism handed down the same pagan ritual that infuriates God, like we read about in Jeremiah?
So true, and I can't find anywhere in Scripture where Mary is given the title of "Queen" for anything! :twitch:

[Jude3b]

Rocektman, about your statement -contrary to popular belief - Mary and the sign of the cross.
Romanism is largely a relgion of ceremonials and rituals, and as such it is a far departure from the purity and simplicity of the Gospel.
What is the basis for "making the sign of the cross?" What is the basis even for the Roman liturgy, elaborate ritual and ceremony? Where even is the basis for the "Hail, Mary" prayer?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[spl_cadet]

What is the basis for "making the sign of the cross?"

What's wrong with a prayer that invokes the name of the Holy Trinity? :huh:


What is the basis even for the Roman liturgy, elaborate ritual and ceremony?

The Apocalypse, as Dr. Hahn points out in The Lamb's Supper


Where even is the basis for the "Hail, Mary" prayer?

Luke 1:42; Luke 1:28.



So true, and I can't find anywhere in Scripture where Mary is given the title of "Queen" for anything!

Revelation 12. Crowns do signify royalty.

[Jude3b]

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:" (I Tim. 2:5). Notice Mary is not the one mediator. There is no Biblical basis for prayers to Mary.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[spl_cadet]

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:" (I Tim. 2:5). Notice Mary is not the one mediator. There is no Biblical basis for prayers to Mary.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

Mediator in the sense that she prays for us. Or are we not supposed to pray for each other?

James 5:16
pray for one another so that you may be healed.

[Jude3b]

"THEREFORE THE BLESSED VIRGIN IS INVOKED IN THE CHURCH UNDER THE TITLES OF ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, AND MEDIATRIX." Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church Page 252, #969

Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator. I Tim. 2:5

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[spl_cadet]

With this understanding of the difference between Christ as the exclusive God-man Redeemer/Mediator on the one hand and of the ability of other Christians to interceed for us on the other, the imagined difficulty is solved. Christ is the only Mediator in the sense that he is the only God-man, the only Person capable of redeeming us from our sins, however other people can mediate in the sense of offering intercessions. In fact, Scripture applies the very same Greek term for "mediator" that is used in 1 Timothy 2:5 to Moses in Galatians 3:19-20, where it speaks of the Mosaic covenant having been "ordained by angels [the angels God set over Israel during the Exodus] through a mediator [Moses]."

It is in the sense of being an intercessor that Mary is called a Mediatrix. In this she is the same as all other Christians who pray for others (in heaven or on earth), but due to her special role in God's plan, having been chosen to be the mother of the infinite Son of God, her prayers have special efficacy. As James tells us, "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much" (Jas. 5:16), and Mary is as righteous as they come (of course, she is not a man, but James is using the term "man" in its gender-inclusive sense; the prayers of a righteous woman availeth much, too).

Having other Christians praying for you does not in any way diminish or impugn Christ's mediation (or else Paul would never have ordered Christians to engage in intercessory prayer), and Mary, as the chief Christian, is no exception to this. In fact, it is because of Christ's mediation that her prayers and our prayers have any effect at all. Christ and his death are the source of all graces, and if God graciously answers Mary's prayers or ours, it is because of Christ. Mary prays, just like we do, "in the name of Christ."

http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q055.htm

[Jude3b]

"... IT IS CHRIST THAT DIED, YEAR RATHER, THAT IS RISEN AGAIN, WHO IS EVEN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, WHO ALSO MAKETH INTERCESSION FOR US." (Romans 8:34)

Scripture could not be any plainer about the identity of the true intercessor. It is Jesus Christ, not Mary.

[Jude3b]

No, Mary is not the "Queen of all things" -
"... thine is the kingdome, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all." (I Chronicles 29:11)

[Ric]

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." 48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." (NIV)

[Jude3b]

Hey Ric: What think ye of Jeremiah 7:18 and 44:9 and 17? Why did these people worship this false goddess called the Queen of heaven?

[Jude3b]

Why is Jesus Christ, the One who sacrificed His life and suffered the cruel torture of the cross, set aside by Roman Catholicism while they exalt Mary?

[Ric]

Hey Ric: What think ye of Jeremiah 7:18 and 44:9 and 17? Why did these people worship this false goddess called the Queen of heaven?

Jeremiah 7:16 "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame? (NIV)

Jeremiah 44:7 "Now this is what the LORD God Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Why bring such great disaster on yourselves by cutting off from Judah the men and women, the children and infants, and so leave yourselves without a remnant? 8 Why provoke me to anger with what your hands have made, burning incense to other gods in Egypt, where you have come to live? You will destroy yourselves and make yourselves an object of cursing and reproach among all the nations on earth. 9 Have you forgotten the wickedness committed by your fathers and by the kings and queens of Judah and the wickedness committed by you and your wives in the land of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem? 10 To this day they have not humbled themselves or shown reverence, nor have they followed my law and the decrees I set before you and your fathers. (NIV)

Jeremiah 44:15 Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present--a large assembly--and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, 16 "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." (NIV)

I think that this was a "cult" worship if a pagan goddess referenced in the OT. The Queen of Heaven (goddess) was probably the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, the goddess of love and fertility.

[Jude3b]

Don't you think it is remarkable that Catholicism gave Mary a name so often used by false goddesses in ancient cults?

[Ric]

Don't you think it is remarkable that Catholicism gave Mary a name so often used by false goddesses in ancient cults?

Remarkable? No.
Sad? Yes.

The Roman Catholic faithful are misguided in many areas due to the false teachings of the Roman Catholic church. All we can do is pray for these people and try to lead them to God's truths.

[spl_cadet]

Don't you think it is remarkable that Catholicism gave Mary a name so often used by false goddesses in ancient cults?

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

[Jezz]

The Roman Catholic faithful are misguided in many areas due to the false teachings of the Roman Catholic church. All we can do is pray for these people and try to lead them to God's truths.
What??? You pray to God on behalf of (in other words, you mediate for) other people??? But I thought there was only one mediator between God and man... :wink:

I think it's time for a quick true/false test, Ric. Jude3b, you can try this too if you want.

One pearl will be awarded for each correct answer. A correct answer consists of either a "yes" or a "no" - no elaboration should be necessary. Trying to elaborate on an answer will result in no pearls being awarded for that question. You will also receive one pearl for participation.

1. It is acceptable (even required) that we pray for other people.
2. It is acceptable to ask other people to pray for us.
3. Those who have died in Christ are still alive and with us today. (bonus pearl for this one).

This is an open book test with no particular time limit, so you should be able to do pretty well. Good luck.

[Ric]

What??? You pray to God on behalf of (in other words, you mediate for) other people??? But I thought there was only one mediator between God and man... :wink:

Have you ever thought of going into politics? You are a great "spin doctor"!

I think it's time for a quick true/false test, Ric. Jude3b, you can try this too if you want.

One pearl will be awarded for each correct answer. A correct answer consists of either a "yes" or a "no" - no elaboration should be necessary. Trying to elaborate on an answer will result in no pearls being awarded for that question. You will also receive one pearl for participation.

1. It is acceptable (even required) that we pray for other people.
2. It is acceptable to ask other people to pray for us.
3. Those who have died in Christ are still alive and with us today. (bonus pearl for this one).

This is an open book test with no particular time limit, so you should be able to do pretty well. Good luck.

Why would I want to take a "fixed" test?
But for your enjoyment I'll play alone:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes/No
The question for number three is the "fixed" part for there is no right or wrong answer in the way it's asked. It should be asked as two different questions like this:
3a. Are those who have died in Christ still alive?
4a. Are Those who have died in Christ still with us today?


3a. would have been answered "Yes"
&
4a. would have been answered "No"

3a. states a Biblical truth and 4a. does the same because those who have died in Christ are with Him in Heaven right now and not here on the Earth with us.

Thanks for reading.

P.S. Don't welsh on the pearls. :tongue:

[Jude3b]

Remarkable? No.
Sad? Yes.

The Roman Catholic faithful are misguided in many areas due to the false teachings of the Roman Catholic church. All we can do is pray for these people and try to lead them to God's truths.

Your so right Ric, Pray for me that I remember to pray for them more than I already do. I love dear Roman Catholic people. They have a zeal for God, but Satan sure has them trapped in this false religion.

[Jezz]

Have you ever thought of going into politics? You are a great "spin doctor"!
Politics? Wouldn't dream of it. Theology is too satisfying. :smile:

As for being a spin doctor: My statement was deliberately framed in a way that would seem like ridiculous spin to you. Because that is precisely how "spun out" your attacks on Mary seem to Catholics (and btw, I'm not Catholic - I'm Lutheran).

Try and see it from their perspective: When Catholics call Mary the "mediatrix", they mean that she prays to Jesus on our behalf (or at least, that's the official Catholic doctrine - granted that some individual Catholics might be confused on this score). In much the same manner as you were praying to Jesus on behalf of Catholics. If you see no problem with the latter, then there should be no problem with the former.

Why would I want to take a "fixed" test?
You wouldn't want to, because it would show you the error of your ways (which is never a pleasant experience for anyone). Which is why I offered pearls as an incentive. :teeth:

But for your enjoyment I'll play alone:
What... you're not going to play with anybody else? Oh, I see - that was a typo. :wink:

1. Yes
2. Yes
Correct. Two pearls.

3. Yes/No

The question for number three is the "fixed" part for there is no right or wrong answer in the way it's asked. It should be asked as two different questions like this:
Yes, you're right - it should have been two different questions. Which is why I offered two pearls for this question.

3a. would have been answered "Yes"
&
4a. would have been answered "No"
3a is correct. 4a is incorrect. You get 1 out of a possible 2 pearls. + 2 from above, + 1 for participating = total of 4 out of a possible 5. Not bad! :wink:

3a. states a Biblical truth and 4a. does the same because those who have died in Christ are with Him in Heaven right now and not here on the Earth with us.
No, 4a goes against the Bible and it goes against the tradition of the early Church (ie, the ones for whom the Bible was written in the first instance). Heaven is not a place where people go.

I'm going to steal some of Tercel's work on this, because he's explained already quite well in this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13367):
It might surprise you to learn that the Bible never uses the word “heaven” to refer to “a place in the afterlife”. (as far as I am aware) “Heaven” is used in four ways in the Bible:
1. The first heaven (or “the heavens”) = the sky, the atmosphere.
2. The second heaven (or “the heavens”) = outer space, the stars.
3. The third heaven = the throne room of God amongst the angels, the place where God dwells beyond space.
4. The kingdom of heaven = the presence of God in man, wherever God’s will is done among man.
Here is a typical example of the 4th usage:

Matthew 3:2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Greek used here is a tense that indicates a present reality resulting from a past action - in other words, the kingdom of heaven had already come, and was already there when John the Baptist (and Jesus after him) spoke those words. As Tercel pointed out, the "kingdom of heaven" is not a "place" that the "saved" go to (I challenge you to find some Biblical passages that support this idea - as I understand it, it's more of a neo-Platonic idea that has been imported into Christianity). It is a state of being. Yes, those who have died in Christ are "in" the kingdom of heaven now, because they are alive and in Christ. Just as you and I are alive and in Christ, and likewise also are part of the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is not of this world (as Jesus explained to Pilate), because it transcends time and space - thus those who are in the kingdom of heaven are "with us", even when not present physically.

Thanks for reading.
You're welcome!

P.S. Don't welsh on the pearls. :tongue:
Wouldn't dream of it!

[Ric]

Politics? Wouldn't dream of it. Theology is too satisfying. :smile:

As for being a spin doctor: My statement was deliberately framed in a way that would seem like ridiculous spin to you. Because that is precisely how "spun out" your attacks on Mary seem to Catholics (and btw, I'm not Catholic - I'm Lutheran).

Try and see it from their perspective: When Catholics call Mary the "mediatrix", they mean that she prays to Jesus on our behalf (or at least, that's the official Catholic doctrine - granted that some individual Catholics might be confused on this score). In much the same manner as you were praying to Jesus on behalf of Catholics. If you see no problem with the latter, then there should be no problem with the former.


You wouldn't want to, because it would show you the error of your ways (which is never a pleasant experience for anyone). Which is why I offered pearls as an incentive. :teeth:


What... you're not going to play with anybody else? Oh, I see - that was a typo. :wink:


Correct. Two pearls.


Yes, you're right - it should have been two different questions. Which is why I offered two pearls for this question.


3a is correct. 4a is incorrect. You get 1 out of a possible 2 pearls. + 2 from above, + 1 for participating = total of 4 out of a possible 5. Not bad! :wink:


No, 4a goes against the Bible and it goes against the tradition of the early Church (ie, the ones for whom the Bible was written in the first instance). Heaven is not a place where people go.

I'm going to steal some of Tercel's work on this, because he's explained already quite well in this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13367):
It might surprise you to learn that the Bible never uses the word “heaven” to refer to “a place in the afterlife”. (as far as I am aware) “Heaven” is used in four ways in the Bible:
1. The first heaven (or “the heavens”) = the sky, the atmosphere.
2. The second heaven (or “the heavens”) = outer space, the stars.
3. The third heaven = the throne room of God amongst the angels, the place where God dwells beyond space.
4. The kingdom of heaven = the presence of God in man, wherever God’s will is done among man.
Here is a typical example of the 4th usage:

Matthew 3:2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Greek used here is a tense that indicates a present reality resulting from a past action - in other words, the kingdom of heaven had already come, and was already there when John the Baptist (and Jesus after him) spoke those words. As Tercel pointed out, the "kingdom of heaven" is not a "place" that the "saved" go to (I challenge you to find some Biblical passages that support this idea - as I understand it, it's more of a neo-Platonic idea that has been imported into Christianity). It is a state of being. Yes, those who have died in Christ are "in" the kingdom of heaven now, because they are alive and in Christ. Just as you and I are alive and in Christ, and likewise also are part of the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is not of this world (as Jesus explained to Pilate), because it transcends time and space - thus those who are in the kingdom of heaven are "with us", even when not present physically.


You're welcome!


Wouldn't dream of it!


Thank you!

And it's great to see that you are a Lutheran for I was once a member of the LCMS.

One quick question for you...
You said due to one of my answers that "Heaven is not a place where people go."

Please read 2 Corinthians 5:8 and tell me what you think about that passage?

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. (NIV)

Thanks. and God Bless!

[ratioann]

arg.. This will be the third time I have tried to post here, something's glitchin'.

I think Mary will be used to perhaps create unity. This probably won't be for awhile, but it has to start sometime. I know that there are many apparations of her around the world and certain sites. She performs miracles and signs and speaks to the people there. She often calls herself the 'queen of heaven' & 'the queen of the nations'. She makes requests to be made co-redemtrix and have temples made in her honor. Of course, it's not actually her, but many think it is and thats good enough. I guess she is also in the koran and muslims like her quite a bit. Which may explain a link to babylon... It's interesting that in the koran Jesus is reffered to as 'Jesus, son of Mary'.

I could not find this in my bible, but It must came from somewhere. Nimrod's wife, Semiramis had an illegitimate baby after he died. She said the baby was Nimrod reincarnated and called her the queen of heaven (da-dum). She demanded worship of her son ( & most likely alittle for herself). Her sons name was Tammuz and he is in the bible. I guess this is the starting point for several religious beliefs and myths.

I got my info from here, if ya wanna lookie:
http://www.goodnewsmedia.com/bible.studies.htm/babylon.htm
http://www.harpazo.net/Queen.html

[Jezz]

Thank you!
You're welcome! I'm glad you've taken this in the good-natured spirit in which it was intended - I knew that it was a bit provocative, and there is a tendency for people to react negatively as a sort of defensive tactic.

And it's great to see that you are a Lutheran for I was once a member of the LCMS.
Cool, we've probably got a lot in common then! Like you I used to be quite wary of the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of Mary and the saints, but after more investigation found that they were less objectional than I thought.

One quick question for you...
You said due to one of my answers that "Heaven is not a place where people go."

Please read 2 Corinthians 5:8 and tell me what you think about that passage?

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. (NIV)
Sure.

First of all, a bit of background. Think back to Jesus' incarnation. Prior to his death, Jesus had a mortal, corruptible body like ours. He was subject to the effects of pain, aging, etc. Now consider his resurrection - the prototype for our own future resurrection. The resurrected Jesus was not simply a phantasm or illusion - the Gospel writers took pains to emphasise the fact (in keeping with the Jewish "totality" concept - ie, a human by nature consists of mind and body) that Jesus' resurrection was into a physical body. However, they also showed that, although this body was physical, it was not like our mortal, corruptible bodies - it had new properties (seeming ability to conceal his appearance, ability to appear in locked rooms, disappear at will, etc).

Summary: in the afterlife we will have physical bodies, but they will be "new and improved" versions of the frail and corruptible bodies that we currently have.

With that as background, let us examine the entire passage surrounding the verse that you have quoted:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Ok, now given the background I spoke about, you might have guessed where I'm going with this, but I will proceed anyway. :smile:

Consider first the introductory verse. Paul speaks of our "eternal house in heaven". I think it is clear that because Paul is speaking of an eternal house, this refers to the afterlife.

When do we go to the afterlife? When we die, of course. Therefore, the metaphor of the "earthly tent being destroyed" must refer to our death. To what then, does the metaphor of the "tent" refer? It refers to our earthly body!

Note how "earthly tent" is used in contrast to "heavenly house". Thus, we see the metaphor extended: a "tent" is a frail, temporary dwelling. It is not permanent, and easily destroyed. Contrast this with a house - solid and permanent. If (as I explained above) the tent is the metaphor for our earthly body, then it follows that the house must be a metaphor for our resurrection body. So we see that when Paul speaks of going to our "house in heaven", he speaks not of a place, but of our resurrection body.

Paul expounds on this metaphor through vs 1-5, and then uses that as background for his comments in vs 6-10 (including vs 8 that you asked me to comment on). I think, given this background, that when Paul speaks of being "at home in the body", he refers to our earthly body, whereas when he speaks of being "away from the body/at home with the Lord", he speaks of our resurrection body.

Does that make sense?

Thanks. and God Bless!
Again, you're welcome. And God bless you too!

[Ric]

You're welcome! I'm glad you've taken this in the good-natured spirit in which it was intended - I knew that it was a bit provocative, and there is a tendency for people to react negatively as a sort of defensive tactic.


Cool, we've probably got a lot in common then! Like you I used to be quite wary of the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of Mary and the saints, but after more investigation found that they were less objectional than I thought.


Sure.

First of all, a bit of background. Think back to Jesus' incarnation. Prior to his death, Jesus had a mortal, corruptible body like ours. He was subject to the effects of pain, aging, etc. Now consider his resurrection - the prototype for our own future resurrection. The resurrected Jesus was not simply a phantasm or illusion - the Gospel writers took pains to emphasise the fact (in keeping with the Jewish "totality" concept - ie, a human by nature consists of mind and body) that Jesus' resurrection was into a physical body. However, they also showed that, although this body was physical, it was not like our mortal, corruptible bodies - it had new properties (seeming ability to conceal his appearance, ability to appear in locked rooms, disappear at will, etc).

Summary: in the afterlife we will have physical bodies, but they will be "new and improved" versions of the frail and corruptible bodies that we currently have.

With that as background, let us examine the entire passage surrounding the verse that you have quoted:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Ok, now given the background I spoke about, you might have guessed where I'm going with this, but I will proceed anyway. :smile:

Consider first the introductory verse. Paul speaks of our "eternal house in heaven". I think it is clear that because Paul is speaking of an eternal house, this refers to the afterlife.

When do we go to the afterlife? When we die, of course. Therefore, the metaphor of the "earthly tent being destroyed" must refer to our death. To what then, does the metaphor of the "tent" refer? It refers to our earthly body!

Note how "earthly tent" is used in contrast to "heavenly house". Thus, we see the metaphor extended: a "tent" is a frail, temporary dwelling. It is not permanent, and easily destroyed. Contrast this with a house - solid and permanent. If (as I explained above) the tent is the metaphor for our earthly body, then it follows that the house must be a metaphor for our resurrection body. So we see that when Paul speaks of going to our "house in heaven", he speaks not of a place, but of our resurrection body.

Paul expounds on this metaphor through vs 1-5, and then uses that as background for his comments in vs 6-10 (including vs 8 that you asked me to comment on). I think, given this background, that when Paul speaks of being "at home in the body", he refers to our earthly body, whereas when he speaks of being "away from the body/at home with the Lord", he speaks of our resurrection body.

Does that make sense?


Again, you're welcome. And God bless you too!


Hi again,
And yes, it makes perfect sense. You seem to be referring to the body as the person and not the person as the person. Yes we will receive new glorified bodies in our afterlife, and it will be in Heaven, I just think we have our terms crossed.

1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
:b_woot: :b_hop: :b_jump: :b_bow: :b_cowboy:

[Socrates]

I could not find this in my bible, but It must came from somewhere. Nimrod's wife, Semiramis had an illegitimate baby after he died. She said the baby was Nimrod reincarnated and called her the queen of heaven (da-dum). She demanded worship of her son ( & most likely alittle for herself). Her sons name was Tammuz and he is in the bible. I guess this is the starting point for several religious beliefs and myths.

I got my info from here, if ya wanna lookie:
http://www.goodnewsmedia.com/bible.studies.htm/babylon.htm
http://www.harpazo.net/Queen.html
These are unreliable sources, based on His-slop's The Two Babylons. Historical references to Semiramis make no connections to Nimrod. See also The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology (http://users.clarkston.com/rcorson/2babylons.htm)

BTW, I am no supporter of Mariolatry, but don't think it's justifiable to use fallacious arguments against it. Certainly the idea of a sinless Mary not only contradicts Scripture but also early church tradition, which the RCs ostensibly value so much. From the AiG article The Virginal Conception of Christ (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4262apol_v2-1994.asp):

Immaculate conception—this refers not to Jesus’ conception but Mary’s, i.e. Mary was conceived in the normal human manner but free of the taint of original sin. This dogma was not defined by Rome until 1854. It is contradicted by the fact that Mary admitted that she needed a saviour (Lk. 1:46–47) and brought a sin offering to the temple (Lk. 2:21–24, cf. Lev. 12:6–8. See also Rom. 3:23). Smith’s Bible Dictionary points out that there is no trace of this doctrine in the Church Fathers in the first five centuries, and in fact that Mary was criticised by Tertullian, Origen, Basil the Great (329–379) and John Chrysostom (c. 350–407). Some of these criticisms of one who was ‘blessed among women’ (Lk. 1:42) are very unfair, but the point is that these early Christians clearly did not believe that Mary was sinless. The Roman Catholic scholar Hilda Graef cites critical comments by these fathers, and also points out that Irenaeus taught that she was not free of human faults, and that the great Trinitarian Athanasius (c. 296–373), while not attributing actual sins to her, stated that ‘bad thoughts’ came into her mind. Graef admits that it ‘… shows that the image of the spotless, perfect, immaculate Virgin had not yet emerged in the minds of the 4th Century fathers’. [Hilda Graef, Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion (NY: Sheed and Warde, 1963)]

[ratioann]

These are unreliable sources, based on His-slop's The Two Babylons. Historical references to Semiramis make no connections to Nimrod. See also The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology (http://users.clarkston.com/rcorson/2babylons.htm)

:blush:
I didn't know that, :smile: thank you.

[Jude3b]

The Bible declares that God receives glory through the Lord Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about Jesus and what He would do for us. Mary, on the other hand is only mentioned a handful of times, and is never referred to as a queen of anything.

[Rushing Jaws]

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:" (I Tim. 2:5). Notice Mary is not the one mediator. There is no Biblical basis for prayers to Mary.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

## Jesus Christ is God and man.

Mary is human.

We are human.

Mary is not God.

We are not God.

That is the difference.

So Mary and we do not have the status Jesus Christ has.

Hope that helps :smile: ##

[Jude3b]

There is no biblical basis for praying to Mary. We are to pray to God the Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what the Bible states.

[George Blaisdell]

There is no biblical basis for praying to Mary. We are to pray to God the Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what the Bible states.

Just a quick little question here, my brother...

Is there any Biblical basis for praying to Christ? You statement above seems to limit us to only praying to the Father, in Christ's Holy Name. Am I understanding you right?

And is there any Biblical basis, in your interpretation, for praying to the Holy Spirit?

The Church, of course, prays to all Three...

Is the Wise Thief alive in Heaven?

Can Christ in Him hear our prayers to him for intercession?

Arsenios

[betzerg]

Of course not! Duh. We would be however, if we were worshipping Mary the Queen of Heaven. She is the queen of heaven as scripture eludes to, but she is not to be worshipped. However, some do. They are not representing the Catholic Faith accurately.

Sinless, Co-redemptrous..".hail mary full of grace" . This seems like diety worship to me. Am I wrong? Catholics pray to MARY...even YESHUA did not ask the talmidim to pray to HIM....

Shalom,

BETZER

[Jude3b]

Just a quick little question here, my brother...

Is there any Biblical basis for praying to Christ? You statement above seems to limit us to only praying to the Father, in Christ's Holy Name. Am I understanding you right?

And is there any Biblical basis, in your interpretation, for praying to the Holy Spirit?

The Church, of course, prays to all Three...

Is the Wise Thief alive in Heaven?

Can Christ in Him hear our prayers to him for intercession?

Arsenios


Dear Arsenios:

I know of no Biblical basis for directing our prayers to anyone other than the Father (God), in the name of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You say, "The Church, of course, prays to all Three..."

I personally do not know anyone in the church of God - the body of Christ who prays to anyone other than the Father (God), in the name of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There may be some, and no doubt in "sect babylon" there are many, many, people praying to many different names.


HOW WE SHOULD PRAY?

"Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication let your requests be made known unto God." (Phil 4:6)

JESUS GAVE US THE MODEL ON HOW TO PRAY:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever, Amen." (Matthew 6:9-13)

So, Jesus in this Model prayer demonstrates several things to us:
1) We are to pray to "Our Father (God) in heaven.
2) Our prayer should start with Praisising and Worship of the Father (God) - ex. "Hallowed be thy name."
3) We are to pray for the kingdom of God to come (that is for men, women, boys and girls to be saved, receiving Christ and the Kingdom of God into their heart - the reign of God over their lives - Luke 17:20 & 21).
4) We are to pray for the increase of the Kingdom of God on earth, and that His will, will be done here, just as in heaven. In other words we want to pray for others to be saved and laborers to go to work in the fields that are ripe for harvest.
5) We are to pray for our daily bread. I add thanking Him for meeting our needs, and telling God what our requests are.
6) We are to pray and ask for forgiveness (with sin, there is always a debt to pay). And we are to forgive others, if we expect to be forgiven.
7) We should pray that God will protect us from the temptations that surround us most of the time.
8) We close our prayer the same way we started it, with Praise and Worship of the Father (God). "For thine is the kingdom...."

On top of that Jesus has instructed us to ask in His name. "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." (See John 14:13 & 14).

The purpose of that includes the fact that in a very real sense, Jesus is not just our Lord and Savior - but He is very much our Advocate or Attorney. It glorifies God to answer all prayers and save, heal, and bless all men and women, but He cannot do so unless we ask in faith, nothing wavering (see Heb. 11:6; James 1:5-8; Mk. 11:22-24)

Jesus Himself always set the example in how to pray and who to direct our prayers to. Consider How and what He prayed for, just before being crucified for us:

"THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:...
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, KEEP THROUGH THINE OWN NAME those whom thou hast given me, that they may BE ONE, as we are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
SANCTIFY THEM through THY TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH.
As thou has sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (PS- thats us!)
THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(See John 17:1, 4-23)

[Krusader]

Just a quick little question here, my brother...

Is there any Biblical basis for praying to Christ? You statement above seems to limit us to only praying to the Father, in Christ's Holy Name. Am I understanding you right?

And is there any Biblical basis, in your interpretation, for praying to the Holy Spirit?

The Church, of course, prays to all Three...

Is the Wise Thief alive in Heaven?

Can Christ in Him hear our prayers to him for intercession?

Arsenios

There is Biblical proof for praying to Christ. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," said Stephen the protomartyr.

[George Blaisdell]

There is Biblical proof for praying to Christ. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," said Stephen the protomartyr.

Glory to God!

Thank-you...

Now our brother Jude can join with the Church and also pray to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Can you now see, dear Brother Jude, that we can pray to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit too? And indeed that we should. And indeed, as you quoted above, everything by prayer and supplication, and anything we should ask in Christ's name, that "...will I do..." I did not know the quote of Crusader, but I had just assumed that if you ask for Jesus to do something in His Name, then you are praying to Him... I was a little astonished at your idea that the Bible only allows us to pray to God the Father, and not to God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, as the Church has always discipled the faithful to pray...

You really should not need it to be spelled out for you as Crusader so graciously managed to do. You seem to have cut yourself off from prayer to God by your demand to only do what can be clearly proven by the Bible. Will you now await someone else to show you the verse that says we can pray to God the Holy Spirit too?

Can you see, my Brother, how the letter kills, and the Spirit makes alive?? And the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles at Pentecost that the Body of our Lord should be established upon the earth, and it was indeed, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and it is the ground and pillar of truth... That is the Church, dear Jude - Christ gave His life that the Holy Spirit should be sent, and told His apostles to rejoice at his death, for this would happen, they would receive power, and that power is the power of the Holy Spirit God in Christ's one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

By seeking your salvation outside the Body of Christ, which He died for, you are scorning the narrow gate, Christ, the Heard of His Body, the Church, that leads to salvation, and it does not matter how much you cry out "Lord, Lord!"

God be with you...

Arsenios

[Jude3b]

There is Biblical proof for praying to Christ. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," said Stephen the protomartyr.


Dear Crusader:

Thank you for your input. Yes, I agree that Stephen made and directed a request unto Jesus and that the thief on the cross did that also and there are examples of others who "made their requests known unto Jesus."

And it is true also, that the Bible says: "To be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Phil 4:6)

And it is also true that Jesus Christ is God. Stephen knew that. No doubt about it. So, can Jesus hear and answer prayer. Yes, He can.

Nevertheless please consider that those facts that I have just stated do not negate the fact that We are supposed to be directing our prayers to the Father (God) in the name of Jesus Christ.

Please if you or anyone else disagrees with my Biblical position - provide Biblical proof that we are supposed to pray in any other manner or to any other name.

[Jude3b]

Glory to God!

Thank-you...

Now our brother Jude can join with the Church and also pray to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Can you now see, dear Brother Jude, that we can pray to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit too? And indeed that we should. And indeed, as you quoted above, everything by prayer and supplication, and anything we should ask in Christ's name, that "...will I do..." I did not know the quote of Crusader, but I had just assumed that if you ask for Jesus to do something in His Name, then you are praying to Him... I was a little astonished at your idea that the Bible only allows us to pray to God the Father, and not to God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, as the Church has always discipled the faithful to pray...

You really should not need it to be spelled out for you as Crusader so graciously managed to do. You seem to have cut yourself off from prayer to God by your demand to only do what can be clearly proven by the Bible. Will you now await someone else to show you the verse that says we can pray to God the Holy Spirit too?

Can you see, my Brother, how the letter kills, and the Spirit makes alive?? And the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles at Pentecost that the Body of our Lord should be established upon the earth, and it was indeed, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and it is the ground and pillar of truth... That is the Church, dear Jude - Christ gave His life that the Holy Spirit should be sent, and told His apostles to rejoice at his death, for this would happen, they would receive power, and that power is the power of the Holy Spirit God in Christ's one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

By seeking your salvation outside the Body of Christ, which He died for, you are scorning the narrow gate, Christ, the Heard of His Body, the Church, that leads to salvation, and it does not matter how much you cry out "Lord, Lord!"

God be with you...

Arsenios


Dear Arsenios:

Here we go, round and round again.

I can join "the church" you say. What should I do, go into the Orthodox church building and ask an Orthodox priest - if I can get signed up - get my name on the church roll, get them to put me through their sacramental system. Will that make me a member of that church, your church?

No sir, the day I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior - is the very day that He placed me into his church, the church of God - the body of Christ (see Acts 2:47). That is the only church recognized in the pages of Holy Scripture. There is no Orthodox church in the Bible, there is no Roman Catholic church there either. Only the true church of God - the body of Christ - that all true Christians alive today or who have ever lived, belong to. Jesus is the only one that can take members into His church and He is the only one who can put someone out!

Did the thief on the cross join the Orthodox church? Yes or no? Is He in Heaven today with Jesus? Yes or No? Why?

Can you please provide Biblical proof that we are instructed to pray to anyone other than Father (God) in the matchless name of the Lord Jesus Christ? Can you please provide Biblical proof that we are instructed to address our prayers to any other name besides the Father (God)? Can you please provide Biblical proof that your denomination is correct in directing prayer to the Holy Spirit, instead of to the Father (God).

Yes, I agree that God established the church. However, He did not establish sects and denominations. He established the church of God - the Body of Christ. Thats not sect Babylon, nor is it the Orthodox religion or the
Roman Catholic religion - that is the church of God - the body of Christ.

Let me explain some of the Historic Roots of the Apostolic church of God, OK?

In the city of Jerusalem, on the Day of Pentecost, the Apostle Peter said, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day" (Acts 2:29). The miracle of Pentecost occurred in the city of Jerusalem, the ancient site of the throne of David. What is the history and happenings and culture of that city?

After the death of David, Solomon reigned over all the twelve tribes for forty years. At his death (983 B.C.) ten tribes revolted and set up a separate kingdom in Samaria under Jeroboam. This was the kingdom of Israel. Two of the tribes, Judah and Benjamin, remained faithful to the house of David and elevated Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, to the throne of what was now called the kingdom of Judah, with Jerusalem as its capital. Although the northern Israelitish kingdom was idolatrous to a degree, it stood for a little more that two hundred years, until it was captured and destroyed by the Assyrians (722 B.C.). At that time Sargon II, king of Assyria, carried away all the upper classes and rich people into Assyria.

At the same time the Assyrians brought a multitude of heathen colonists to the land of Samaria. These, mingling with the common people of the Israelitish descent, formed the mixed multitude who were the Samaritans in the days of the apostolic church of God.

In 606 B.C. Assyria was conquered by the Chaledans. King Nebuchadnezzar punished Judah and Jerusalem repeatedly, carrying away captives in 605 B.C., in 598 B.C., and in 597 B.C. Finally, he destroyed Jerusalem and ended the kingdom of Judah (586 B.C.), carrying away to Babylon multitudes of the people of Judah.

When Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians under Cyrus (539 B.C.), one of the first things that Cyrus did was to permit the return to Jerusalem the next year. The rebuilding of the Temple was begun by Zerubbabel in 520 B.C.

Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire in 330 B.C., and Palestine fell to him as a part of that state's sphere of influence. Three years later Alexander the Great died, and his vast empire was divided among his generals, who became kings of their several fragments of the Greek Empire. Palestine fell under the reign of the Greek speaking king whose capital was Alexandria, Egypt, but in 198 B.C. the control of Palestine passed from the Greek speaking kings of Alexandria to the Greek speeking kingdom of Syria.

Palestine remained a Syrian dependency until the Hellenistic Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes attempted to introduce Greek idolatry into Jerusalem, when the Jews revolted under the Maccabees (167 B.C.)

The Jews defeated Antiochus Epiphanes and set up a Jewish kingdom in Jerusalem, ruled by the Maccabees and their decendants, who were both high priests and kings. This was called the Asmonean Dynasty.

In 65 B.C. Antipater, an Idumean proselyte to Judaism, and the father of Herod the Great, became manager for the Asmonean priest-king Hyrcanus.

In 63 B.C. the Roman general Pompey conquered Jerusalem. After that Hyrcanus, the former ruler, was sometimes called king, but he was forbidden the insignia of royalty, and he lacked its authority.

In 48 B.C. Caesar made Antipater governor and confirmed Hyrcanus as high priest. The following year Antipater set Herod over Galilee, and four years later the Romans made Herod the governor of all Syria.

In 40 B.C. Herod was made king by the Roman senate, he captured Jerusalem in 37 B.C., and died in 4 B.C. (Of course, this was after the birth of Christ. The discrepancy in dates is due to an error in computing the year of our Lord, made in the sixth century, and never corrected.)

After the death of Herod, Judea, Samaria, and Idumea were allotted to his son Herod Archelaus; Galilee and Perea, to Herod Antipas. Herod Antipas ruled in Galilee until A.D. 39, but Archelaus was removed from his kingdom in Jerusalem (A.D 6), and Jerusalem and Judea were ruled by a succession of procurators, five in number, of whom the last was Pontius Pilate (A.D. 26-36). Consequently, Pontius Pilate, who did not even make his residence in Jerusalem, but in Caesarea, on the seacoast, was the ruler of Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. From A.D. 37 to 44 King Herod Agrippa, grandson of Herod the Great, was given rule over all Palestine. After his death Judea was again placed under procurators, who were made responsible to the governor of Syria. This condition prevailed until the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70.

Why did I tell you all that?

I'm trying to explain the Social and Economic Conditions that existed in the days of the apostolic church of God.

You will have to admit, the bare recital of the long list of conquerors and the swift succession with which one after the other ravaged the land, help to give us some picture of the disturbed and uneasy condition of Palestine in the days of the apostolic church of God.

The Religious conditions included the Pharisees - the conservative sect that held to the literal construction of the law of Moses. The Pharisees were the fundamentalists of first-century Judaism, and thus reflected strongly both the worst and the best elements in the religious life of the Jewish people of that time.

There were also the Sadducees, who were the modernists of ancient Judaism. Their religious ideas were largely influenced by Greek philosophy. They were the aristocrats of the Jewish people, wealthy, polished, educated, living in an atmosphere of culture and power and enjoying an abundance of special privileges. They held themselves above the "ignorant fanatics" who debated about the fine points of Jewish theology.

There were also the Essenes, the extreme ascetics and mystics of Judaism. They were the forerunners of the monks and nuns of the modern world, and they also were noted for such ascetic practices as celibacy and vegetarianism. Living in monasteries scattered throughout Palestine, they practiced the strictest communism. In the days of the apostolic church of God they numbered four thousand in Palestine and Syria. The Essenes did influence the later life of the apostolic church, being the root of asceticism and monasticism in the church.

There was also the Messianic Hope - the Hope of a Messiah. This hope was fanned into a hot flame by the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the first temple, and the exile in Babylon. This Messianic hope was to the disciples, the instrument by which they laid hold on Christ as Lord.

Many of the Pharisees, on the other hand, expected an earthly king and rejected the humble Nazarene JESUS because He did not fulfill their carnal expectations. Even many of these people who later accepted Christ still carried over into Christianity their carnal dreams of an earthly reign of Christ and thus became the founders of premillennialism in the ancient church.

Arsenios, can you see how this background led to two ancient heresies that came directly into the early church from Judaism - namely monasticism from the Essenes and premillennialism from the Pharisees?

CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAEL OF GOD TODAY. Christians are the new spiritual Israel, that are dead to the old law of Moses and raised from the dead in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The New Testament plainly states that there were those in the apostolic church of God - who were religious and trying to put the yoke of religion back on those who had been born-again and set free in Christ. James, the pastor of the Jerusalem church of God, told Paul (Acts 21:20-22) that there were in Jerusalem thousands of Jewish Chritians who were jealous of the Law, and the Apostle Paul said flatly that the JUDAIZERS from Jerusalem who gave him so much trouble "came from James," the bishop (pastor) at Jerusalem (Gal. 2:12). Paul denounced severely these teachers as false brethren (vs 4), as men who "walked not uprightly according to the truth" (vs 14).

JUDAISTIC CHRISTIANITY IS A RETREAT TOWARD OBLIVION and so is Sect Babylon.

Arsenios, would you agree that the Bible is the supreme criterion for all true Christians? Would you agree that the Bible teaches that Christians should be striving to live a Holy life? A life that brings glory to God?

What is the source of false doctrine in the church? It is fairly easy to demonstrate that false doctrines came into the church through the addition of ritual, liturgy and form, and these came through false doctrine. No doubt one aided the other.

It is easy to see how this could happen today. Most people are to busy to read their Bible and study doctrine, therefore they are more likely to imbibe doctrine from the forms of worship than from the words that are spoken.

No doubt Arsenios, your teachers would tell you that your Greek Orthodox denomination traces its present day ritualism to the customs of the apostolic church of God - an assertion Christians like myself deny. What are the facts?

The evidence indicates that the apostolic church of God congregations had a free, informal style of worship.

Let us get back to the account of the day of Pentecost for example:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance... But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them" (Acts 2:1-4,14). After the sermon, "they that gladly received the word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls" (vs. 41).

Notice please my dear Arsenios, that there were no mention of bells, vestments, incense, candles, written prayers, or any formal, mechanical exercises whatever. The inrushing power of the Spirit of God blasted ritualism and formality as with an atomic bomb.

Arsenios, most Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics that I know would contend that a formal liturgical service induces worship, but the apostolic church of God did not find such artificial means necessary to, or even consistent with, their spiritual worship.

High Church Ritualistic ceremony under the conditions of solemn grandeur only creates an artificial worship in which drunkards, gamblers, prostitutes, and men of continuing evil life can and do participate.

The spiritual worship of the apostolic church of God is worship inspired by the Spirit of God, in which only those cleansed by Christ, the pure in heart can participate. It is a worship which tends to convict sinners (I Cor. 14:25).

[George Blaisdell]

Please if you or anyone else disagrees with my Biblical position - provide Biblical proof that we are supposed to pray in any other manner or to any other name.

Well, Christ commissioned the Holy Apostles to disciple all the peoples, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and in the Name of the Son, and in the Name of the Holy Spirit. Baptism, of course, is an action done in prayer... And someone baptized in the Name of the Holy Spirit, one would think, should PRAY TO the Holy Spirit, yes?? I mean, what are you going to tell the Holy Spirit after you die??? "I didn't pray to you because I couldn't find any Bible verse that told me to do so."??? "I mean, I know you are God and all, but if You had wanted me to pray to You, You should have said so in the Bible..." "And the same goes for you too, Jesus - You should have written it in the Bible that I should pray to You."

That just seems to crackers to me, Jude...

Especially when Christ died to establish His Body upon the earth, the Church, which Christ instructed to disciple you in prayer, and you then deny that Holy Body of Christ in favor of your private revelation and your private interpretation thereof...

Please forgive me for sounding critical... Most of us here have had profound spiritual esperiences that changed our lives. Paul certainly did on the road to Damascus. Yet Christ had Ananias heal him from his blindness, and baptize him into the Body of Christ. He did not just tell Saul that from now on he was saved, give him his sight back, and tell him to preach to the nations... He sent him to the Church... It was the Church that restored his sight. It was the Church that baptized him... It was the Church that he suffered for and ministered unto...

And you deny this very historical Church...

And thereby make Christ a mockery...

Because He died for it...

And not for the Bible...

Arsenios

[Jude3b]

Well, Christ commissioned the Holy Apostles to disciple all the peoples, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and in the Name of the Son, and in the Name of the Holy Spirit. Baptism, of course, is an action done in prayer... And someone baptized in the Name of the Holy Spirit, one would think, should PRAY TO the Holy Spirit, yes?? I mean, what are you going to tell the Holy Spirit after you die??? "I didn't pray to you because I couldn't find any Bible verse that told me to do so."??? "I mean, I know you are God and all, but if You had wanted me to pray to You, You should have said so in the Bible..." "And the same goes for you too, Jesus - You should have written in in the Bible."

That just seems to crackers to me, Jude...

Arsenios


Dear Arsenios:

God did not give us the Bible so that we could make up our own "traditions" according to our own likes and dislikes. Your praying to the Holy Spirit, instead of to the Father (God) as instructed in the Word of God is nothing more than a traditon of your religion.

Do you not know that the Word of God states:

"Be ye holy!" (I Peter 1:16)

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in OBEYING THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT..." BEING BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH LIVETH AND ABIDETH FOR EVER." (I Peter 1:22a, 23).

Arsenios, Obeying the truth, will help ye be holy! Note that truth (that is, God's Word - not your opinions or my opinions), if obeyed, will generate a purified soul and genuine love.

Arsensios, when we come to Christ and are saved, it is by the incorruptible blood of Christ (I Peter 1:19) to an incorruptible inheritance (I Peter 1:4), and an incorruptible body (I Cor. 15:53), and an incorruptible crown (I Cor. 9:25), to serve an incorruptible King (I Tim. 1:17), all revealed and activated through the incorruptible, eternal, Word of God (I Peter 1:23).

You know your Orthodox religion and your Orthodox religious teachers, will wither away, but the Word of God will stand forever!

Listen to the Word of God in I Peter 1:24-25:

"For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." ARESENIOS!

[George Blaisdell]

Dear Arsenios:

God did not give us the Bible so that we could make up our own "traditions" according to our own likes and dislikes.

Indeed so, my dear Brother...

And indeed, God the Father did not give us the Bible, but instead gave us His Only Begotten Son, who died on the cross that the Holy Spirit should come and imbue the disciples with His sacred power, and thus was born the Body of Christ upon the earth in His Apostles in the Holy Spirit. This is the birth of the Church at Pentecost. And it was only AFTER this event that the New Testament Bible began to be written. And it was written by those within the Church, in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and TO the Church, and FOR the Church, in which salvation hath come unto the world, the Body of Christ Who is its Head.

Outside this holy body of Christ, you only find endless diatribes against what separate individuals perceive as those OTHERS who are wrong, which includes most here on T-Web when they get to debating the meaning of Scripture and Christianity. The Reformed pound on the JW's who pound on the Trinitarians, and on and on... As well, the "personal relationists" pound on the 'ceremonialists', which includes your never ending diatribes of outrage at the Roman Church for being such a diabolical religion, and now your approaching inclusion of the Eastern Orthodox communion of the Apostolic Faith in the same mental categories as the Romans.


Your praying to the Holy Spirit, instead of to the Father (God) as instructed in the Word of God is nothing more than a traditon of your religion.

It is the received tradition of the Body of Christ Who is its Head, the very same Holy Tradition that WROTE the scriptures that you so zealously clutch to your intellect. Salvation is wrought through faith, not through your own personal and private intellection upon the written words of Scripture. And that faith comes through being called, as indeed you have been called... For you know that God is real, and the author of your life...

Prayer to the Holy Spirit is prayer to God.

If you renounce prayer to the Holy Spirit, you renounce prayer to God.

Please do not do this, my Brother...


Do you not know that the Word of God states:

"Be ye holy!" (I Peter 1:16)

Yes. We are God's, and not our own...


"Seeing ye have purified your souls in OBEYING THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT..."

Yes. We are called to purify our souls. WE are called to obey the Truth. We are called in the Holy Spirit to purify ous souls and obey the Truth. We are enabled to do both only through the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that established the Body of Christ upon the earth in power through the Apostles at Pentecost, the very GROUND and PILLAR of Truth... This we are called to obey as we purify our souls in Her holy power...

[QUOTE]BEING BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH LIVETH AND ABIDETH FOR EVER." (I Peter 1:22a, 23).

Exactly so, in the laver of repentance and baptism and the seal of the Holy Spirit, just like Saul, into the Body of Christ...


Arsenios, Obeying the truth, will help ye be holy! Note that truth (that is, God's Word - not your opinions or my opinions), if obeyed, will generate a purified soul and genuine love.

Obedience to WHOM? The Apostles carried the power of the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ upon the earth, and the Bible tells us we are to be obedient to the elders of the Church under their oversight. And this is what generated the Church, this holy obedience, which WROTE the Bible... And you think that by taking the Bible, and ignoring its transmission, that you can bypass God's Church upon the earth which Christ paid so dearly to establish?

You make a mockery of the Bible when you ignore the Church Christ died for and substitute your own reading of Scripture that was GIVEN by that Church in the power of the Holy Spirit for the Biblical commandment to OBEY Christ through obeying the elders and priests [presbyters] of His Holy Body, the pillar and ground of Truth, the Church...

THAT is the path of salvation, and not your private interpretation of the Church's Bible.


Listen to the Word of God in I Peter 1:24-25:

"For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

The Word of God gave His life on the Cross that His Holy Body be established upon the Earth in the power of the Holy Spirit, and this has happened. The fact that you have been called to Christ outside this Holy Body, just as Saul was, in no way mitigates against your entry into it. And just as Saul became baptized into Saul BY that holy body, and just as he was healed of his blindness, where scales came forth, when Ananias, who is a member of that Body, washed his eyes, so also you are called to the Church, and are not to remain merely within your having been called, clinging to your personal and private interpretation of Scripture and thereby to your obedience according to your own private interpretation of the revelation that Scripture most surely IS...


ARESENIOS!

Pray for me, my Brother... Our prayers for one another make everything possible! [For they give our concerns to God.]

Rdr. Arsenios

[Jude3b]

[QUOTE=George Blaisdell]Indeed so, my dear Brother...

And indeed, God the Father did not give us the Bible, but instead gave us His Only Begotten Son, who died on the cross that the Holy Spirit should come and imbue the disciples with His sacred power, and thus was born the Body of Christ upon the earth in His Apostles in the Holy Spirit. This is the birth of the Church at Pentecost. And it was only AFTER this event that the New Testament Bible began to be written. And it was written by those within the Church, in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and TO the Church, and FOR the Church, in which salvation hath come unto the world, the Body of Christ Who is its Head.

Outside this holy body of Christ, you only find endless diatribes against what separate individuals perceive as those OTHERS who are wrong, which includes most here on T-Web when they get to debating the meaning of Scripture and Christianity. The Reformed pound on the JW's who pound on the Trinitarians, and on and on... As well, the "personal relationists" pound on the 'ceremonialists', which includes your never ending diatribes of outrage at the Roman Church for being such a diabolical religion, and now your approaching inclusion of the Eastern Orthodox communion of the Apostolic Faith in the same mental categories as the Romans.



It is the received tradition of the Body of Christ Who is its Head, the very same Holy Tradition that WROTE the scriptures that you so zealously clutch to your intellect. Salvation is wrought through faith, not through your own personal and private intellection upon the written words of Scripture. And that faith comes through being called, as indeed you have been called... For you know that God is real, and the author of your life...

Prayer to the Holy Spirit is prayer to God.

If you renounce prayer to the Holy Spirit, you renounce prayer to God.

Please do not do this, my Brother...



Yes. We are God's, and not our own...

[QUOTE]
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in OBEYING THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT..."

Yes. We are called to purify our souls. WE are called to obey the Truth. We are called in the Holy Spirit to purify ous souls and obey the Truth. We are enabled to do both only through the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that established the Body of Christ upon the earth in power through the Apostles at Pentecost, the very GROUND and PILLAR of Truth... This we are called to obey as we purify our souls in Her holy power...



Exactly so, in the laver of repentance and baptism and the seal of the Holy Spirit, just like Saul, into the Body of Christ...



Obedience to WHOM? The Apostles carried the power of the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ upon the earth, and the Bible tells us we are to be obedient to the elders of the Church under their oversight. And this is what generated the Church, this holy obedience, which WROTE the Bible... And you think that by taking the Bible, and ignoring its transmission, that you can bypass God's Church upon the earth which Christ paid so dearly to establish?

You make a mockery of the Bible when you ignore the Church Christ died for and substitute your own reading of Scripture that was GIVEN by that Church in the power of the Holy Spirit for the Biblical commandment to OBEY Christ through obeying the elders and priests [presbyters] of His Holy Body, the pillar and ground of Truth, the Church...

THAT is the path of salvation, and not your private interpretation of the Church's Bible.



The Word of God gave His life on the Cross that His Holy Body be established upon the Earth in the power of the Holy Spirit, and this has happened. The fact that you have been called to Christ outside this Holy Body, just as Saul was, in no way mitigates against your entry into it. And just as Saul became baptized into Saul BY that holy body, and just as he was healed of his blindness, where scales came forth, when Ananias, who is a member of that Body, washed his eyes, so also you are called to the Church, and are not to remain merely within your having been called, clinging to your personal and private interpretation of Scripture and thereby to your obedience according to your own private interpretation of the revelation that Scripture most surely IS...



Pray for me, my Brother... Our prayers for one another make everything possible! [For they give our concerns to God.]



Dear Arsenios:


First off, let me say that you seem again to think and indicate by your post that the Orthodox denomination (i.e. religion) is the church of God - the body of Christ. Is that your position - even though there is not one shread of scriptural evidence to back up your position?

Now I know your good at quoting scriptures about the church of God - the body of Christ and your good at claiming they are about your church denomination. But they are not - the Bible clearly shows that the verses in the Bible that pertain to the nature of the church, are about the church of God - the body of Christ. That is the only church we read about in the Bible. It is the only church with a Biblical basis on earth. All else are SECTS. You Greek Orthodox denomination is a SECT!

Let us contrast the New Testament church of God - the body of Christ, with SECTS.

1. The church of God - the body of Christ was fully organized and set in order on the day of Pentecost, about A.D. 33.

All sects, including Greek Orthodox, have originated since that time; therefore not one of them is the church of God; and, furthermore, all of them combined do not constitute the church of God.

2. Salvation makes men members of the church of God - the body of Christ. You often tell me that I am "outside the church" - I beg your pardon and also forgive you for such an error. I am in the church of God - the body of Christ and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself placed me into it, the day I was saved (Acts 2:47). And in case you don't know it - I worship and attend services with hundreds of other members of the church of God - the body of Christ - every Lord's day.

But a good question George, would be: "Are you a member of the church of God - the body of Christ? Are you saved? Are you sure you are saved? You know Arsenios that Salvation does not make any person the member of any sect, including Greek Orthodoxism. People, like yourself, become members of sects by some other means. Some people get salvation first and for lack of better light join a sect afterward; some others join a sect first, and afterward become awakened to their sinful condition and get saved; while the vast majority of people either grow up from childhood in a sect, or else join a sect later, without Bible salvation, and never get salvation, but die in their sins and are lost forever.

3. The church of God - the body of Christ contains in its membership all the saved of earth, as well as the ransomed in paradise - "the whole family in heaven and earth" (Eph. 3:15)

A sect at the very best contains but a small portion of the truly saved of earth, and that small remnant is not in its normal condition, for it is separated by sectarian walls from other truly saved people, while the church of God - the body of Christ was originally one.

4. The church of God - the body of Christ does not contain in its membership a single unsaved person; for Christ is the door, and if we enter through Him we "shall be saved" (John 10:9).

The door of entrance into every sect is human; therefore multitudes gain admittance without Bible salvation.

5. The church of God - the body of Christ contains all the truth, yea, is "the pillar and ground of the truth" itself (I Tim 3:15).

No sect contains all the truth, for the whole truth destroys sectarianism.

6. The church of God was free from error, and possessed the truth itself.

Every sect was conceived in error, born in wrong, nurtured in falsehood, and survives in heresy.

Arsenios, don't misunderstand me, I do not deny that there are elements of truth scattered about here and there in sects, and these portions of truth have in the past accomplished considerable good, in spite of the errors with which they were surrounded.

7. Salvation, the mode of membership in the church of God - the body of Christ, reconciled men together "in one body," and in the Word of God we find that the church of God - the body of Christ possessed every necessary provision for their complete and perfect unification in the one church.

Sectarianism scatters and divides the true sheep of the Lord, mixes and mingles them with the filthy goats and ravenous wolves of false professors, in hundreds of separate folds, and leaves them a prey to every foul spirit sent forth by the destroyer to blind, mislead, and deceive honest souls.

Of course George, Men like you, are blinded to the truth,can see nothing but a human man made church or sect such as Greek Orthodoxism!

I pray you'll read your Bible and let the Holy Spirit reveal the true nature of the New Testament church of God - the body of Christ, to you. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.

[George Blaisdell]

the Bible clearly shows that the verses in the Bible that pertain to the nature of the church, are about the church of God - the body of Christ. That is the only church we read about in the Bible. It is the only church with a Biblical basis on earth. All else are SECTS. You Greek Orthodox denomination is a SECT!

Well then, the Greeks at Thessaloniki, to whom Paul wrote, were all members of a sect, yes. For this is the the Greek Orthodox Church in its beginnings. Do you really believe this? And the Church at Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians - This is in your view also a sect, and not the Body of Christ? For this is where my Church's origins stream forth in the power of the Holy Spirit to this day. And the Church in Jerusalem, where Peter and Iakovos led the Jews in Christ - Just another sect in your view, right? Because THAT Church is still in existence to this day as well. You are making a liar out of Paul and the Bible when you deny the authenticity of the Churches they record as having established that were the beginning Churches that have NEVER gone out of existence, because they are the Body of Christ against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. They are, upon this shifting and soon to be forgotten world, the very ground of Truth, and its pillar... Irrespective of the sins of its members...

Yet you are saying that God failed...

These are all just sects.

The true body of Christ is anyone who has a private revelation and justifies himself by his own private interpretation of the Bible that was taken from those SECTS you so scornfully disdain??? Is this really what you believe???

Pray to the Holy Spirit, my brother...

And please pray for me as well...

Arsenios

[Kenite]

[QUOTE]Well then, the Greeks at Thessaloniki, to whom Paul wrote, were all members of a sect, yes. For this is the the Greek Orthodox Church in its beginnings. Do you really believe this? And the Church at Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians - This is in your view also a sect, and not the Body of Christ? For this is where my Church's origins stream forth in the power of the Holy Spirit to this day.Are Protestants Christians?

[Jude3b]

Well then, the Greeks at Thessaloniki, to whom Paul wrote, were all members of a sect, yes. For this is the the Greek Orthodox Church in its beginnings. Do you really believe this? And the Church at Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians - This is in your view also a sect, and not the Body of Christ? For this is where my Church's origins stream forth in the power of the Holy Spirit to this day. And the Church in Jerusalem, where Peter and Iakovos led the Jews in Christ - Just another sect in your view, right? Because THAT Church is still in existence to this day as well. You are making a liar out of Paul and the Bible when you deny the authenticity of the Churches they record as having established that were the beginning Churches that have NEVER gone out of existence, because they are the Body of Christ against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. They are, upon this shifting and soon to be forgotten world, the very ground of Truth, and its pillar... Irrespective of the sins of its members...

Yet you are saying that God failed...

These are all just sects.

The true body of Christ is anyone who has a private revelation and justifies himself by his own private interpretation of the Bible that was taken from those SECTS you so scornfully disdain??? Is this really what you believe???

Pray to the Holy Spirit, my brother...

And please pray for me as well...

Arsenios


Dear Arsenios:

Please do not misunderstand me. I never said that individual congregations are "Sects." Paul addresses his letters "unto the church of God at....." "to the church of God in....."

In the New Testament, the church of God is not a "Sect" - but rather it is the church of God, which Christ founded - the very body of Christ.

Now I am aware that your denomination claims to be the "original" church dating back to the Apostles. I am also aware that Roman Catholicism believes that they are the "original" also. I have even read that some Baptist groups claim that they are the "original" church dating back as far as John the Baptist. Many other Sects claim to be the original church - in the sense that their denomination is trying to restore the church back to its original state.

Thats all very nice. But are any of them the "original" church of God - the body of Christ that we read about in the Bible or are they "Sects?"

Another question about the church of God would be- what is the basis for the beliefs of this group? Do they have a Catechism, a creed, a rule book?
Or do they have the Bible?

One test, we could do George, would be to compare the organizations with the New Testament apostolic church of God - the body of Christ that we so clearly can read about and study in the Bible. Do Orthodox sects match the nature of the church of God as recorded in Scripture? Does Romanism match the nature of the church of God as recorded in Scripture? Do the fundamentalist Baptist groups that claim they are the original church, match the nature of the church of God as recorded in Scripture?

What do you think Arsenios? Can your denomination exactly match the New Testament apostolic church of God - the body of Christ, as recorded in Scripture? Afterall, that would mean it is the church of God!

To start with Arsenios, please share, if you are willing how you became a member of the Orthodox denomination, with us and let us see if that matches the method of membership into the church of God that we read about in the Holy Bible. Is that an OK place to start with you?

[Jude3b]

[QUOTE=George Blaisdell]Are Protestants Christians?

Dear Kenite and/or George:

Are Protestant Christians? Depends! Are they born-again? Yes or No?

Are they saved? Yes or No?

Have they trusted the finished work of Christ and believed ON Him alone for their eternal salvation? Yes or No?

If the answer is Yes, they are a Christian.

Keep in mind please that a sect, a denomination, or even a whole bunch of sects like Protestantism, do not make someone a Christian.

One is only a Christian if they believe ON and full trust in Christ and Him alone for salvation. All others are only "Religious" and consequently not part of the church of God - the body of Christ.

[Kenite]

[QUOTE=Kenite]

Dear Kenite and/or George:

Are Protestant Christians? Depends! Are they born-again? Yes or No?

Are they saved? Yes or No?

Have they trusted the finished work of Christ and believed ON Him alone for their eternal salvation? Yes or No?

If the answer is Yes, they are a Christian.

Keep in mind please that a sect, a denomination, or even a whole bunch of sects like Protestantism, do not make someone a Christian.

One is only a Christian if they believe ON and full trust in Christ and Him alone for salvation. All others are only "Religious" and consequently not part of the church of God - the body of Christ.Thanks for your reply, which I agree with entirely. However, it is an answer from an Orthodox viewpoint that I would particularly like.

[George Blaisdell]

[QUOTE=George Blaisdell]Are Protestants Christians?
They are Protochristians!

Arsenios

[George Blaisdell]

Dear Arsenios:

Please do not misunderstand me. I never said that individual congregations are "Sects." Paul addresses his letters "unto the church of God at....." "to the church of God in....."

You said: "All sects, including Greek Orthodox, have originated since [Pentecost]; therefore not one of them is the church of God; and, furthermore, all of them combined do not constitute the church of God."

So that the only Church that did not originate AFTER Pentecost is the Church in Jerusalem. ALL the Churches Paul founded were founded AFTER Pentecost. Each "individual congregation" other than the one in Jerusalem then, if you actually meant what you said, is a sect. Paul founded, on your view, sects.

Now the Antiochian SECT, to which you refer, is the Church at Antioch, where followers of Christ were first called Christians. This is a great Church, that still exists in communion with the other Apostolic Churches that were founded in those days. It did NOT go out of existence. It is but ONE of the BIBLICAL Churches. [NONE of the Protestant Churches is, btw, and most certainly no group of individuals reading their own Bibles and having spiritual experiences is Biblically a Church.]

In the New Testament, the church of God is not a "Sect" - but rather it is the church of God, which Christ founded - the very body of Christ.

Paul founded a whole series of Churches among the Gentiles. Christ gave His life upon the Cross that the Holy Spirit should come at Pentecost and establish His Body upon the Earth in power through the Apostles. Are you really saying that it is not ALL of the Churches of the New Testament that are are constituitive of the Church that is the Biblical Church of Christ???


Now I am aware that your denomination claims to be the "original" church dating back to the Apostles.

If you are "aware" of this lie, then you do not understand the Body of Christ. No Church in the Bible claims to be THE Church, not the Church in Antioch [mine], nor the Church in Rome, nor the Church in Thessalonikki, nor the Church in Jerusalem - Not ANY ONE of them claims to be THE Church. They ALL are members of the ONE Church that is the Body of Christ that cannot be divided... So that any Church that is in communion with the whole communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord is a part of the ORIGINAL Church, for there is only ONE Church, and it is in Communion, both in heaven and upon the earth, because Christ is ONE, and His Body is ONE, and is both in the heavens, and upon the earth.

So no, my Church is not the "original Church"... The only Church that might make such a claim could perhaps be the Church in Jerusalem, for that was the point of origination at Pentecost, but they did not, to my knowledge. They were too persecuted, and too humble, and too Godly to arrogate such a name unto themselves.

I am also aware that Roman Catholicism believes that they are the "original" also. I have even read that some Baptist groups claim that they are the "original" church dating back as far as John the Baptist. Many other Sects claim to be the original church - in the sense that their denomination is trying to restore the church back to its original state.

Well, I certainly cannot speak for those outside the Communion of the Eastern Orthodox Church. This I can say: WE are certainly NOT trying to restore the Church back to its original state. Our only claim is that we do not change the faith given once, for all, to the apostles.

Thats all very nice. But are any of them the "original" church of God - the body of Christ that we read about in the Bible or are they "Sects?"
The Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord IS the Church, and it ORIGINATED at Pentecost, and was spread to the nations. The organizations you see are but there to serve that body. They are NOT themselves the Body... The mystery of the faith is person to person to God. The 'organization' either helps or hinders this Mystery... And hopefully is more helpful than harmful...


Another question about the church of God would be- what is the basis for the beliefs of this group?

The basis is Christ, Whose Body each person is a member of. And the further basis of Christ is His Body, which is the ground and the pillar of Truth - We look to the ground and the pillar of Truth as the basis of our faith, because Christ told the Apostles to disciple all the nations, teaching them to DO all that He had commanded them to do, and it is the Apostles who then founded the Churches.

Do they have a Catechism, a creed, a rule book?
Or do they have the Bible?

Yes, the Church has written all of these, but more importantly, they disciple the faithful in deeds, and do not just write books for them to read...

One test, we could do George, would be to compare the organizations with the New Testament apostolic church of God - the body of Christ that we so clearly can read about and study in the Bible. Do Orthodox sects match the nature of the church of God as recorded in Scripture?

The Church is not its 'organization', Jude. It is the Body of our Lord. It is upon the earth. It HAS an organization to it, although in Orthodoxy, you will find that organization to be pretty pathetic. That is only ONE of the reasons I treasure this faith. It is not dependent upon the "organization" of the body, but upon the saints, the elders, the Holy Spirit, and the faithful, and discipleship, for the salvation of our souls...

Does your sect match up exactly with the Bible 'organization' that you call the Church, my Brother??

Does Romanism match the nature of the church of God as recorded in Scripture?

I cannot speak for Rome, for we have been out of communion with Her for a thousand years.

Do the fundamentalist Baptist groups that claim they are the original church, match the nature of the church of God as recorded in Scripture?

Better ask them!

What do you think Arsenios? Can your denomination exactly match the New Testament apostolic church of God - the body of Christ, as recorded in Scripture? Afterall, that would mean it is the church of God!

No, it would not mean that it is the 'church of God". You have set up a strange "proof", my Brother... Because ther is NO "organization" for the Body of Christ laid out in Scripture...

To start with Arsenios, please share, if you are willing how you became a member of the Orthodox denomination, with us and let us see if that matches the method of membership into the church of God that we read about in the Holy Bible. Is that an OK place to start with you?

Repentance and Baptism.

How about you?

Arsenios

[Kenite]

[QUOTE=Kenite]
[QUOTE]They are Protochristians! Are you quite sure, George?

'proto- ...denoting first; earliest in time...

ETYMOLOGY: Latin and Greek, from Greek protos first.'

Chambers Dictionary

I think that you have, quite unwittingly, hit on a very significant truth!

[Anoetos]

Although Hislop's methodology and specific conclusions are certainly questionable, the principle he wrote to show isn't.

It seems to me that much fascination for Mary, on the part of many of those who venerate her as the Roman and Greek churches do, is, in fact an importation of paganism.

In the late classical age, devotion to a female divinity with a special connection to her adherents was very popular. Whether in the context of a mystery cult (as with Isis) or a more homely devotion to the Bona Dea, it had become popular to worship these female goddesses.

There are a lot of reasons for this. The old gods, Jupiter, Mars, etc. were still reverenced but they were considered distant, they gave omens and signs and so forth but they didn't enter into covenant (as it were) with ordinary people. The gods and goddesses of the new cults did exactly that.

This also explains some of the success of Christianity itself. Seeing it in the context of the rise in mystery religions has become popular among religious historians of course, but there is some sense to it.

At any rate, it seems more than reasonable, it seems likely that the devotion evinced very early by Christians for the mother of our Lord is a continuance of the new pagan principle of 'closeness' in religion to the dieties and that the popularity of this devotion as expressed to motherly goddesses of protection and welfare was imported into the church and combined into the cult of the virgin mother.

[Joe Gofish]

Roman Catholicism insists that the Lord elevated Mary to the rank of "Queen of all things." Yet, the Bible proclaims that worshipping a "Queen of heaven" provokes God to anger (Jeremiah 7:18).

Has Roman Catholicism handed down the same pagan ritual that infuriates God, like we read about in Jeremiah?
jUDE3, You need to leave the Catholic alone and start think about why you believe the false doctrine of Calvin,Thats fakse teaching on once saved always saved,Now that is what will be sending you to hell.
BTW. Catholics treat Mary the same way her Son does,and you only use 1/2 of the Bible and you don't understand the other 1/2.
What you need to do is start studying the RCC and read your Bible and stop putting your interpreations on the Bible,You did not do a good job the first time maybe you will have a little lucky this time,Are you still trying to add to the Bible ????????

[Joe Gofish]

[QUOTE=Jude3b]Thanks for your reply, which I agree with entirely. However, it is an answer from an Orthodox viewpoint that I would particularly like.
Are Protestants Christians, yes some are others are not.

Are They saved _ Some are and others are not,God will let them know at that time.

No church or denomination can save you,God does not send people to hell,people send them self to hell.

[Joe Gofish]

You said: "All sects, including Greek Orthodox, have originated since [Pentecost]; therefore not one of them is the church of God; and, furthermore, all of them combined do not constitute the church of God."

So that the only Church that did not originate AFTER Pentecost is the Church in Jerusalem. ALL the Churches Paul founded were founded AFTER Pentecost. Each "individual congregation" other than the one in Jerusalem then, if you actually meant what you said, is a sect. Paul founded, on your view, sects.

Now the Antiochian SECT, to which you refer, is the Church at Antioch, where followers of Christ were first called Christians. This is a great Church, that still exists in communion with the other Apostolic Churches that were founded in those days. It did NOT go out of existence. It is but ONE of the BIBLICAL Churches. [NONE of the Protestant Churches is, btw, and most certainly no group of individuals reading their own Bibles and having spiritual experiences is Biblically a Church.]



Paul founded a whole series of Churches among the Gentiles. Christ gave His life upon the Cross that the Holy Spirit should come at Pentecost and establish His Body upon the Earth in power through the Apostles. Are you really saying that it is not ALL of the Churches of the New Testament that are are constituitive of the Church that is the Biblical Church of Christ???




If you are "aware" of this lie, then you do not understand the Body of Christ. No Church in the Bible claims to be THE Church, not the Church in Antioch [mine], nor the Church in Rome, nor the Church in Thessalonikki, nor the Church in Jerusalem - Not ANY ONE of them claims to be THE Church. They ALL are members of the ONE Church that is the Body of Christ that cannot be divided... So that any Church that is in communion with the whole communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord is a part of the ORIGINAL Church, for there is only ONE Church, and it is in Communion, both in heaven and upon the earth, because Christ is ONE, and His Body is ONE, and is both in the heavens, and upon the earth.

So no, my Church is not the "original Church"... The only Church that might make such a claim could perhaps be the Church in Jerusalem, for that was the point of origination at Pentecost, but they did not, to my knowledge. They were too persecuted, and too humble, and too Godly to arrogate such a name unto themselves.



Well, I certainly cannot speak for those outside the Communion of the Eastern Orthodox Church. This I can say: WE are certainly NOT trying to restore the Church back to its original state. Our only claim is that we do not change the faith given once, for all, to the apostles.


The Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord IS the Church, and it ORIGINATED at Pentecost, and was spread to the nations. The organizations you see are but there to serve that body. They are NOT themselves the Body... The mystery of the faith is person to person to God. The 'organization' either helps or hinders this Mystery... And hopefully is more helpful than harmful...



The basis is Christ, Whose Body each person is a member of. And the further basis of Christ is His Body, which is the ground and the pillar of Truth - We look to the ground and the pillar of Truth as the basis of our faith, because Christ told the Apostles to disciple all the nations, teaching them to DO all that He had commanded them to do, and it is the Apostles who then founded the Churches.



Yes, the Church has written all of these, but more importantly, they disciple the faithful in deeds, and do not just write books for them to read...



The Church is not its 'organization', Jude. It is the Body of our Lord. It is upon the earth. It HAS an organization to it, although in Orthodoxy, you will find that organization to be pretty pathetic. That is only ONE of the reasons I treasure this faith. It is not dependent upon the "organization" of the body, but upon the saints, the elders, the Holy Spirit, and the faithful, and discipleship, for the salvation of our souls...

Does your sect match up exactly with the Bible 'organization' that you call the Church, my Brother??



I cannot speak for Rome, for we have been out of communion with Her for a thousand years.



Better ask them!



No, it would not mean that it is the 'church of God". You have set up a strange "proof", my Brother... Because ther is NO "organization" for the Body of Christ laid out in Scripture...



Repentance and Baptism.

How about you?

Arsenios
JUDE Gets a little confused, The Church was here 200 to 300 years b4 the Bible,and maybe another 40 b4 the Bible was written(the NT).
The Bible itself tells us the pillar of Truth is the Church.And his church got here about 1200 years later and it was not started by John the Baptist,It was started by a guy named Smith. Jude may tell you diff but just pray for him.

[Kenite]

[QUOTE=Kenite]
[QUOTE]Are Protestants Christians, yes some are others are not.Is that given as the Orthodox view? I would much prefer to have the view of an Orthodox- however long it takes!

[Kenite]

[QUOTE]The Church was here 200 to 300 years b4 the BibleSo if Matthew's gospel was not determined as Scripture until then, how did anyone know that there was a pope before then? And why should anyone today, inc. Catholics, accept the circular argument of Petrine primacy from a single work that was defined as Scripture by the one person who benefits from it?

'I know that he is a truly great and good man, for he told me so himself.' (HMS Pinafore WS Gilbert)

[Joe Gofish]

Why is Jesus Christ, the One who sacrificed His life and suffered the cruel torture of the cross, set aside by Roman Catholicism while they exalt Mary?
Because Catholic do as Juses did,They do to Mary as Jesus does to Mary we honor .
her. Are you going to tell God how you love to bash His Mother,Hmmmmmm



Hail Mary


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.







Hail Mary


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.



(C)

(C)

[Kenite]

[QUOTE]Because Catholic do as Juses did,They do to Mary as Jesus does to Mary we honor .Jesus honoured his father too. What's wrong with him?

[George Blaisdell]

They are protochristians!

Are you quite sure, George?

Now you know why the comedy club does not hire me. Proto means Prot from Protestant, and the o means of, as in O'Malley... O'Well!...

'proto- ...denoting first; earliest in time...

ETYMOLOGY: Latin and Greek, from Greek protos first.'

Chambers Dictionary

I think that you have, quite unwittingly, hit on a very significant truth!
What it meant was that Protestants are early, [proto-], first stage Christians. By Orthodox standards, they are enquirers, and have no understanding of the faith, for they have not received their understanding from the Pillar and Ground of the Truth, the historic and Apostolic Church. And because they are not yet baptized, they are not yet members of the Body of Christ.

You see, there is an ontological change within a person that occurs when that person is baptized into the Orthodox Faith. Baptism is not just some "socially observable conformation of one's beliefs", as so many Protestants seem to believe, but is instead the actual, spiritual, entry into the Mystical Body of our Lord, and upon our emergence from the laver of regeneration, we are then sealed with the Holy Spirit in the annointing, which is the Christing, of the Holy Service of Chrismation.

When this happpens, the newly illumined is clean and filled with the Holy Spirit, and is a new creature in Christ, in His holy Body, the Church. And what this looks like varies according to the person, and particularly according to the degree of repentance that he or she has established as a catechumen in preparation for being baptized. The classic preparation period for the early Church was normally some three years, and by today's standards would be seen as severe. It was very dedicated... The Apostles themselves took three years in the presence of Christ Himself. The decision to baptize is that of the Church, and not of the one desiring baptism. And a new name is given upon baptism as well.

In the early Church, the newly illumined would remain in the Church building for the first week after being baptized, praying and fasting, not going outside at all, so as to assure that the newly created person in Christ would not be contaminated by exposure to the world, and would become absolutely firmly established right away. Some were SO prepared that they would immediately enter into union with Christ utterly [Theosis, or Glorification] upon baptism. Most, however, would simply enter their new lives to 'run the race', and acquire virtue in repentance, and to gradually purify their hearts of all the bad that their previous lives had acquired.

The way is arduous and hard, yet befitted to the human soul, and becomes more fitted as time develops the newly emergent from the womb of the Church. You see, it is the Church that births Christians... The Catechumens are our 'embryos' in the faith... They are in the womb of Christ's Holy Body, and they are struggling in repentance to be born anew into Christ. And when they are adjudged to be ready for birth, they are birthed in the waters of regeneration, spotless and without wrinkle. [Granted, their first thought upon emergence CAN put their first wrinkle right back on them, but normally, they are pretty clean and sheltered for some time after this birth. The wounds come later, in the struggle. Even Christ, after his temptations, was ministered to by the angels, and so are we, as we struggle...

And all of this is still on the fairly far horizon for most Protestants, yet this is what it means, to an Orthodox, to be a Christian. Indeed, even for those who are Orthodox, but are not "practicing" Orthodox, they do not regard themselves as Christians, but as having fallen away, and not yet having returned. The reality is that you can fall away. Your name, once written in the Book of Life, can be erased from that book, depending on what choices you make, for God is not a respected of persons. We are repeatedly called to persevere to the end, and this is even written many times in the Bible.

Please forgive me if this sounds harsh...

Rdr. Arsenios

[Joe Gofish]

Rocektman, about your statement -contrary to popular belief - Mary and the sign of the cross.
Romanism is largely a relgion of ceremonials and rituals, and as such it is a far departure from the purity and simplicity of the Gospel.
What is the basis for "making the sign of the cross?" What is the basis even for the Roman liturgy, elaborate ritual and ceremony? Where even is the basis for the "Hail, Mary" prayer?
Sincerely, Jude 3b
JUDE3 What bible do you read ? You have never heard of this B4,stop posting and look in a good bible its right in front of your face.


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

its called intercessory prayer

[Kenite]

[QUOTE]Now you know why the comedy club does not hire me. I think we're agreed on that much!

Please forgive me if this sounds harshIt sounds long, George! Thank you for writing it, though, as you make some interesting points. But all I wanted was a straight 'no', as it turns out. That's anyway what I generally get, with great brevity and indeed even firmness, from Orthodox (accompanied with the word 'heretic' and suchlike!).

Now my next question is this. What are mere Proto'christians like me to do in order to become more than enquirers? Because I've asked for proof of the genuineness of the Orthodox Church, not just here, btw, and have got no meaningful response so far from anyone. Now if God has made the Orthodox Church the means of His grace, why has He not provided clear proof that it is the means of His grace? All the truly wonderful things you wrote in your post mean nothing unless that proof can be provided. If I want to tell my friends, who have other explanations of the things you mentioned, that they must join the Orthodox to be saved, what will I tell them when they ask about the origins of your church? I'd hate them to think I was conning them, and I'm sure that's what they'll ask about. You see my difficulty?

[George Blaisdell]

I think we're agreed on that much! [Arsenios' lack of employable comedic skills]

Here's further proof: Did you hear of the bi-polar dislexic who spent all night reading Genesis 1?? He walked out into the morning sunlight, ducked and looked around, and said: [quotation at end of post.]

It sounds long, George! Thank you for writing it, though, as you make some interesting points. But all I wanted was a straight 'no', as it turns out. That's anyway what I generally get, with great brevity and indeed even firmness, from Orthodox (accompanied with the word 'heretic' and suchlike!).

Well, I did not convert from Protestantism in any form, but from simple athiesm. I was an Ayn Rand Objectivi