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yxboom
January 27th 2004, 11:38 AM
ANSWERING ISLAM (http://www.answering-islam.org)

DO MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE?

By J.M.

The first time I heard it I was a bit stunned. My friend, Blama (a West African form of the name Ibrahima) held out his hands, face down. He extended both index fingers straight out, held them firmly pressed together side-by-side and stated, "The Muslim and the Christian are like this. No difference." Here I had been trying to convince him that the two religions were very different and now he was telling me that we were the same. I was doing my best to point out the dissimilarities between our Scriptures, our God, our prophets and how we ought to live. Apparently, Blama saw things differently than I!

The purpose of this writing is to explore Islam and Christianity, but with the underlying premise that words used by both are not the same. It is the hope that by the final word, the reader will begin to grasp the tremendous complexity of the words of both religions and that the reader will not blithely use words which are not communicating the truth of the gospel of ‘Isa Al-Masih.

Words Have Meaning

The premise is quite simple. Words have meaning. The words being written for the reader to peruse are really nothing more than vehicles for meaning. Physical symbols of ‘g’, ‘o’, and ‘d’, when properly combined produce visual representations of meaning.

I am sure we can all agree that words have meaning. When we use a word, we do so because we have agreed between us that it has a specific meaning. For instance, if one wishes to communicate ‘plate’, the word ‘frivolous’ is not used. Likewise, if one desires to communicate a more transcendent idea, such as the hope one has for success, one does not employ this phrase: "I really like your dress, Francine!"

To complicate such a simple notion, however, we can add the subject of comparative religion to the mix. Do not all religions speak about God, sin, good and evil? Because a Muslim and Christian use the same words, we must mean the same thing, correct? After all, we both believe that ‘God’ is one, the creator, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and totally unlike anything other being. We both agree that humans sin, that sin is bad because it is an act of rebellion against God. So, what is the problem?

Let me illustrate with a somewhat crude analogy. Sitting out in your front yard is a Ford and a Fiat. Let us make a list of similarities between the two:


*both are automobiles used for transportation;
*both words begin with ‘F’ and have four letters;
*both use petroleum products;
*both might even be the same color.

If we simply employ the similarities of the objects, we could rightly say that it would appear the Ford and Fiat are the same. Perhaps we would focus on the one underlying characteristic of both: they are automobiles whose purpose is transportation. Surely, these similarities are overriding in our understanding of the Ford and Fiat? Not only are they similar in important ways, they are categorically the same! They are automobiles. Granted, a Ford salesman might tell you a Fiat is not an automobile, but who can trust a car salesman?!

But the question remains: Is a Ford the same as or similar to a Fiat? Are there differences?

*one is American made, the other Italian;
*one is automatic, the other has a stick shift;
*one is new, the other is old;
*one has four doors, the other two.

Sameness and Similarity

Based on these observations, is the Ford similar to or equivalent to the Fiat? If one uses only the first list, the list of comparison, the two cars can almost be made to be equivalent (the same). On the other hand, if the second list, the contrasting characteristics, is used in addition to the first, the only conclusion possible is that the two cars are simply similar. That is, they share commonalities and similarities, but they are not the same or equivalent.

For clarity, let us distinguish between the idea of ‘sameness’ and ‘similarity’. First, let me offer this stipulative definition for sameness: any two items, persons or ideas are equivalent in every characteristic and attribute. Philosophically we are speaking of strict identity. An underlying assumption which feeds into this notion of sameness is that change exists. Sameness allows for no change or alteration. For purposes of this discussion, Muslims and Christians agree that very little changes. In fact, we might agree that God is the only being not subject to change. But this refers to his character and attributes, not to our understanding of God. More on this later.

Similarity is not sameness. Similarity is a flexible, fluctuating, pliable concept. Sameness is firm, unbreakable, absolute. Two things, persons or ideas may share any number of similarities. That they are partners in similarity, by definition, makes them not the same. Sameness and similarity are mutually exclusive concepts.

The Ford and the Fiat are similar. The fact of their similarity proves they cannot be the same. If the Ford and Fiat were indeed the very same car (but perhaps called different names by various people), we could not say they are similar. I am reminded of my own children and their struggles with the English language. Many times one of them will say something such as "That place is like a store." What is being described is a store. If it is like (similar to) a store, it cannot be a store. It might be an office building, a house, a bank or a garage, but it cannot be a store. So, I gently correct the statement, "It cannot be like a store if it is a store." Six year olds do not yet understand the formal equivalence of ‘is’.

Second, the definition of similar: two or more items, persons or ideas which may have at least one characteristic held in common. Obviously, then, the greater the number of characteristics and attributes held in common, the greater the similarity. The characteristics of commonality may be endless, but if there is one characteristic which is not equivalent, the two cannot be called the same.

Similarity works on a sliding scale of contrasting and comparing. We can say ‘x’ is very much like ‘y’ or we may say ‘z’ is very little like ‘y’. Both statements deal with similarity. Sameness is identity. There is no sliding scale of comparison. Either the items, persons or ideas are equal, equivalent, and identical or they are not.

It would appear that many times, Muslims (and Christians) have committed this type of error. This error is known as the fallacy of equivocation (equating two or more concepts which are not the same though they may be similar). Words which have similar meanings (that is, they share commonalities) are made to be equivalent. Muslims say ‘car’ meaning Ford while Christians think Fiat! Muslims say ‘Allah’ and think this is the God of the Bible.

Do Muslims Words Have Christian Meanings?

It is assumed the reader is Christian (though I am sure there are Muslims who will also find this). For this reason, it is assumed the reader has a Christian understanding of God, his attributes, his character and his revelation. Therefore, we will not attempt to define or list the characteristics of Yahweh, but only the character and attributes of Allah will be investigated. Let the reader decide if the words mean the same or are only similar. If the words are similar, what is the degree of similarity?

Allah

1. The case for sameness

Muslims and Christians agree that the Almighty is One. There is agreement that he is the creator of all things. He is omniscient, ominpresent, and omnipotent. Without listing the 99 names of Allah, it is generally held by Christians that most of these names can find their counterparts in the Bible. While there is much we know about Allah, there is a greater storehouse of knowledge we do not know. The Almighty is totally other, yet is said to be nearer than a man's jugular vein (Qur'an 50:16).

Allah reveals his will to mankind in a book given through prophets. He calls for obedience to his will. He punishes evil and rewards good. He forgives, shows mercy and compassion, yet he displays his anger and wrath as well.

Allah is self-existent, to be worshiped, hears and answers prayers, sustains the universe, free of all wants and needs, irresistible, the light of the heavens, Lord of the dawn, et al.

What Christian could object to these qualities also existing in the Yahweh? In fact, both Allah and Yahweh are categorically identical: the One, true, Creator, Sustaining Almighty God who rules the universe. The question remains: Are they similar or identical?

2. The case for similarity

Ask a Muslim if the Almighty would deign to become a human being. 1
Ask if the Almighty can be known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 2
Ask if the Qur'an reveals the Almighty's character or only his will. 3
Ask if the Almighty can allow people to lie in certain circumstances. 4
Ask if the Almighty has compassion on those going to hell. 5
Ask if the Almighty has a knowable essence. 6

Conclusion

It is hoped the reader has begun to grapple with the complexity of the situation. The Muslim-Christian debate can only benefit as both sides think, speak and write clearly. Our words must accurately reflect the understanding derived from our own Scriptures. Words do have meaning and therefore, they must be used appropriately. In the Muslim-Christian debate there are certain words (viz., ‘God’, ‘Allah’ and ‘Yahweh’) which share commonalities. Too often, in a naive attempt to foster dialogue, we make these commonalities the pinnacle of our discussion. The words used by Muslim and Christian do not necessarily have the same meaning. When it is stated that Allah = Yahweh = Brahman = Allah, this is more than oversight. It shows a lack of understanding of the meaning or content of the words.

There are words and concepts which bear scrutiny with which this paper has not dealt. I have only presented a sketchy beginning for this process. It is hoped this introduction will prompt others to examine words, how they are used in Islam and Christianity, and the meanings behind those words.7 Never let it be said "We are arguing semantics." This is a ‘poor man's argument’ which is generally used as a smokescreen or red herring to draw attention away from the fact of the matter: semantics, meaning and words are important.

It behooves us to use words carefully and thoughtfully. We must not be guilty of assuming that when the Muslim says Allah he is speaking of Divinity with all the characteristics, attributes and essence of Yahweh. To do so is to be guilty of the fallacy of equivocation. We do not want equivocation to become our avocation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End Notes

1 Kenneth Cragg, The Call of the Minaret, p. 291: "To conceive of God in Christ is for the Muslim mind an unworthy thing. God does not become man. If He did, something unthinkable would have happened to His Divinity. Muslims have resisted the Christian interpretation of Christ on these grounds in the belief that they are safeguarding the Divine majesty."

The Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din, The Ideal Prophet, pp. 5, 6: "Where then arises the necessity of having a God-in-man placed before us as our ideal? The whole scheme, if any, would seem irrelevant.


2 Qur'an 4:171: (Far exalted is He) above having a son.

3 Cragg, p. 47: "The revelation is conceived of, not as a communication of the Divine Being, but only of the Divine will. It is a revelation, that is, of law, not personality. God the revealer remains Himself unrevealed.

Fazlur Rahman, Islam, p. 37: "The Qur'an is primarily a book of religious and moral principles and exhortations ..."

4 Mishkat ul-Masabih, translated by Karim, vol. i, p. 467: "Asma'a-bn-Yezid reported that the Messenger of Allah said: Falsehood is not lawful except in three (things): falsehood of a man to his wife to please her, falsehood in war, and falsehood in restoring peace among men. - Ahmad and Tirmidhi"

5 Mishkat, v. iii, p. 117: "Abu Darda reported that the Holy Prophet said: Allah created Adam when he created him (sic). Then He stroke (sic) his right shoulder and took out a white race as if they were seeds, and He stroke (sic) his left shoulder and took out a black race as if they were coals. Then He said to those who were in his right side: Towards paradise and I don't care. He said to those who were on his left shoulder: Towards Hell and I don't care. - Ahmad"

This hadith seems racist in its report of creation. All Muslims know that the right hand is the hand for eating and greeting. The left is for ‘other’ matters. The right shoulder of Adam saw the white folks emerge. The black folks came from his left. The white race is called ‘seeds’. Seeds grow and produce. The black race is compared to coals which are used to produce heat by burning. This is juxtaposed to those going to heaven and hell where they will either flourish or burn. It is difficult to resist the impression that Allah appears to be a racist.

6 Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Ideals and Realities of Islam, p. 18: "... the Divine essence (al-dhat) remains absolutely transcendent and no religion has emphasized the transcendent aspect of God more than Islam."
Norman L. Geisler & Abdul Saleeb, Answering Islam, p. 136: "... [in] traditional Islam, properly speaking, God does not have an essence, at least not a knowable one. Rather, he is Will. ... The orthodox Islamic view of God claims ... that God is an absolutely necessary being. He is self-existent, and he cannot not exist. But if God is by nature a necessary kind of being, then it is of his nature to exist. In short, he must have a nature or else he could not be by nature a necessary kind of being. In this same regard, orthodox Islam believes that there are other essential attributes of God, such as self-existence, uncreatedness, and eternality. But if these are all essential characteristics of God, then God must have an essence, otherwise they would not be essential attributes. For this is precisely how essence is defined, namely, as the essential attributes or characteristics of a being."

7 The following is an abbreviated list of suggested words: Jesus, Messiah, Lord, sin, forgiveness, righteousness, inspiration, and revelation.

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Answering Islam (http://www.answering-islam.org) has the purpose to proclaim the Gospel to the Muslim world in a meaningful way.

Islam is a [i]post-Christian and anti-Christian religion with many resistances, misunderstandings and intentional attacks against the Christian faith woven into its very fabric. To overcome these obstacles we provide



evangelistic material explaining the Gospel in terms that can be understood by Muslims
strong apologetics, i.e. defense of the Christian faith, answering to the attacks of Islam and Muslims on the Bible and Christian doctrine.
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We seek to strengthen believers from a Muslim background and help them to build a firm foundation in their new faith, and similarly support the often oppressed and persecuted Church in countries ruled by a Muslim government.

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yxboom
January 27th 2004, 11:45 AM
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Gavin
January 28th 2004, 01:57 AM
Interesting read. The acid test for any religion, even the cults, is what they do with Christ. Muslims not only deny the deity of Christ but also that he died. They say that either God rescued him or someone else took his place, and he went to heaven just as Elijah did in the Old Testament. Its hard to imagine a more important peg in the structure than Jesus death and subsequent resurrection, and Islam specifically denies this. I'd say that is grounds for saying the religions are not the same!

Robyn Banks
January 28th 2004, 05:14 AM
My friend, Blama (a West African form of the name Ibrahima) held out his hands, face down. He extended both index fingers straight out, held them firmly pressed together side-by-side and stated, "The Muslim and the Christian are like this. No difference." Here I had been trying to convince him that the two religions were very different and now he was telling me that we were the same.

Your friend Blama was closer to the Truth.

When a person points to the moon, it is wrong to merely look at his fingers.

"the Bible is a sacrament of the sacred... Virtually anything can
become sacramental: nature, music, prayer, birth, death, sexuality,
poetry, persons, pilgrimage, even participation in sports, and so
forth. Things are sacramental when they become occasions for the
experience of God, moments when the Spirit becomes present, times
when the sacred becomes an experiential reality."

"The point is not to believe in a metaphor, but to see in light of
it."
- Marcus Borg

When a person points to the moon, you must look at his fingers. The closer you study the way he points, as opposed to how another person points, the better you will see where he points.

Biblecrazy
January 28th 2004, 01:36 PM
The reason why Muslims *have to* say at all times that Christians and Muslims worship the same God is because the Koran says so. The Koran in fact says that Jews also worship the same God.

If a Muslim states that Christians and Jews do not worship the god of Islam, then he/she is a blasphemer, and immediately there will be a Fatwa on him in this life, and in the next, the fires of hell for eternity.

So, we should *never* expect a *practicing* Muslim to *understand* the fact that we do not worship their god.

suffer for joy
January 28th 2004, 06:44 PM
Your friend Blama was closer to the Truth.
How so? :huh:

ballplayr412
January 28th 2004, 10:32 PM
Your friend Blama was closer to the Truth.

When a person points to the moon, it is wrong to merely look at his fingers.

"the Bible is a sacrament of the sacred... Virtually anything can
become sacramental: nature, music, prayer, birth, death, sexuality,
poetry, persons, pilgrimage, even participation in sports, and so
forth. Things are sacramental when they become occasions for the
experience of God, moments when the Spirit becomes present, times
when the sacred becomes an experiential reality."

"The point is not to believe in a metaphor, but to see in light of
it."
- Marcus Borg

When a person points to the moon, you must look at his fingers. The closer you study the way he points, as opposed to how another person points, the better you will see where he points.

This seems a little vague to me but I'm assuming this means that since both Islam and Christianity point to one God then they are essentially saying the same thing. Obviously both religions say that there is only one God but I'd argue that it isn't the same God. One of the major issues which we must look at is not only that there is a God but what that God looks like. The God of the Bible is different in many aspects to that of the Koran. Simply because both religions are monotheistic doesn't make them equivocal.

ballplayr412
January 28th 2004, 10:35 PM
I'm also curious what zoroastrian means. I've never heard of that belief. What does it teach?

apologetics
January 31st 2004, 02:12 AM
Your friend Blama was closer to the Truth.

When a person points to the moon, it is wrong to merely look at his fingers.

"the Bible is a sacrament of the sacred... Virtually anything can
become sacramental: nature, music, prayer, birth, death, sexuality,
poetry, persons, pilgrimage, even participation in sports, and so
forth. Things are sacramental when they become occasions for the
experience of God, moments when the Spirit becomes present, times
when the sacred becomes an experiential reality."

"The point is not to believe in a metaphor, but to see in light of
it."
- Marcus Borg

When a person points to the moon, you must look at his fingers. The closer you study the way he points, as opposed to how another person points, the better you will see where he points.

Huh? Vague is not even the word that should be used here. You stated a premise and then failed to support it....

Here is the central question: How can Muslims and Christians worship the same God? This is a classic case of the application of the law of non-contradiction.....

Christians worship a triune God who manifests himself in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.....Muslims worship a God that is one. Muslims say that God is NOT triune and Christians say that he IS triune. Therefore, by the most basic law of logic we understand that two things cannot be different and the same at the same time. He is either triune or he is not. If he is.....Christianity is correct and Islam is wrong.

Now, Robyn....with this most basic understanding of the two religions, please support your statement that "Blama was closer to the Truth," and please no more arcane references to celestial objects and body parts.....

Also, Marcus Borg? Are you really trying to use someone who disbelieves all of what Christianity hold to be doctrinally true about the Bible to support something about the Bible? Please.....why not just use a Muslim cleric as support for your argument....

Robyn Banks
January 31st 2004, 02:51 AM
Simply because both religions are monotheistic doesn't make them equivocal.[sic]

I would certainly not state that Islam and Christianity are equivalent. To the contrary, they are quite different. Yet, they are each pointing, in different ways, to God.

Robyn Banks

Robyn Banks
January 31st 2004, 02:55 AM
Here is the central question: How can Muslims and Christians worship the same God? This is a classic case of the application of the law of non-contradiction.....

There is no contradiction at the level of reality. There is only contradiction in conception.




Now, Robyn....with this most basic understanding of the two religions, please support your statement that "Blama was closer to the Truth," and please no more arcane references to celestial objects and body parts.....

Blama was closer to the truth, because he looked past the facades of each religion, to the essence at the heart of each of them.





Also, Marcus Borg? Are you really trying to use someone who disbelieves all of what Christianity hold to be doctrinally true about the Bible to support something about the Bible?

No. I was using what Marcus Borg said to support something about God.




Please.....why not just use a Muslim cleric as support for your argument....

Rumi would be a good option.

Robyn Banks

apologetics
January 31st 2004, 04:20 AM
There is no contradiction at the level of reality. There is only contradiction in conception.

What? how ridiculous is that! "There is no contradiction at the level of reality? Please! Reality has to be based on something concrete....facts! It has to correspond to what the object states about itself or what attributes the object presents about itself.

The Bible clearly spells out that God is triune. Jesus clearly spelled out his claims of deity, clearly spelled out his equality with the Father, clearly spelled out how the Holy Spirit is God. The Koran clearly spells out that Allah is ONE God. However, the central issue is what each faith does with the person of Jesus Christ. Either Jesus Christ is God or he was not. It is the trilemma in action. He was a liar, a lunatic or Lord. I don't think I can make this more clear....Islam says that JESUS WAS NOT GOD. This is where the debate begins and ends. Good grief, you have a cross next to your name and this is something that you have trouble understanding? There is a obvious, blatant, distinct, clear, unambiguous contradiction between these two realities. Any denial of this is philosophical prattle.

Blama was closer to the truth, because he looked past the facades of each religion, to the essence at the heart of each of them.

The essence? To understand the essence of Christianity one needs to understand Jesus Christ. Jesus declared himself to be divine and then demonstrated this fact through the immutable fact of the resurrection. Islam states that Jesus was just a prophet (not even on the level with Mohammad), and that there was no resurrection. That is the essences of these two faiths concerning Christ.

These are fundamental issues and hardly open to dispute.....just ask ANY Muslim....

heisonly1
January 31st 2004, 10:19 AM
This seems a little vague to me but I'm assuming this means that since both Islam and Christianity point to one God then they are essentially saying the same thing. Obviously both religions say that there is only one God but I'd argue that it isn't the same God. One of the major issues which we must look at is not only that there is a God but what that God looks like. The God of the Bible is different in many aspects to that of the Koran. Simply because both religions are monotheistic doesn't make them equivocal.
"Simply because both religions are monotheistic doesn't make them equivocal"

Trinitarianism is monothestic??????????????

hmmmm God the father who is not the Son or the Spirit shares the same essence as God the Son and God the Holy Spirit yet both Son and Spirit are functionally subordinate to God the Father.

Please explain how three members of the trinity(which all three are addressed as God by trinitarians) that share the same esssence and communicate with each other of which two of the members, Son and Spirit,are functionally subordinate to God the Father, is ONE GOD not three Gods?????

Islam presents that there is only one single God as beautifully illustrated in sura 112.This is pure monotheism.

Hired Gun
January 31st 2004, 12:06 PM
Why make an easy issue so difficult?

Mohammed very clearly states his opinion on the matter.Who are Muslims to disagree with Mohammed?

In surahs 109:1 - 109:6, among the last verses of the Quran, Mohammed instructs his followers to say to the unbelievers: "Unbelievers, I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship. I shall never worship what you worship, nor will you ever worship what I worship. You have your own religion, and I have mine."

Who are the 'unbelievers'? According to the Quran, surah 5:70-5:74, "Unbelievers are those that say God is the Messiah, the son of Mary...Unbelievers are those who say that God is one of three". Therefore, modern orthodox Christians are the unbelievers, according to Mohammed.

Our God is not Mohammed's God, by Mohammed's own words.

apologetics
January 31st 2004, 02:26 PM
"Simply because both religions are monotheistic doesn't make them equivocal"

Trinitarianism is monothestic??????????????

hmmmm God the father who is not the Son or the Spirit shares the same essence as God the Son and God the Holy Spirit yet both Son and Spirit are functionally subordinate to God the Father.

Please explain how three members of the trinity(which all three are addressed as God by trinitarians) that share the same esssence and communicate with each other of which two of the members, Son and Spirit,are functionally subordinate to God the Father, is ONE GOD not three Gods?????

Islam presents that there is only one single God as beautifully illustrated in sura 112.This is pure monotheism.

Very quickly not to get this thread completely off the beaten path.

Christianity is completely monotheistic. Deut. 6:4 "The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"

Trinitarianism does not present three Gods. Anyone claiming this knows nothing about this doctrine. To put it very simply, trinitarianism presents one God that is manifest in three persons that are seperate and eternally distinct. It is one WHAT and three WHOS Isaiah 44:8 states that God knows of no other gods.

Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic.....they do not believe in the same God, but they both believe that there is only ONE God.

RikkiTikkiTembo
January 31st 2004, 04:09 PM
I can see simularities between God and Allah.. but I dont' think they are the same.. I was really glad to read this because my mom thinks they are the same... and I wanted to read what others think because I've never actually heard why people think they are the same.. just that they do. I honestly dont' know much about the Muslim faith..
Anyway the reason why I don't think they are the same is because of Jesus. Without Jesus you don't have the same beliefs.. Jesus is essential to Christianity. You can't leave Him out of the equation.

heisonly1
February 2nd 2004, 05:17 PM
Very quickly not to get this thread completely off the beaten path.

Christianity is completely monotheistic. Deut. 6:4 "The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"

Trinitarianism does not present three Gods. Anyone claiming this knows nothing about this doctrine. To put it very simply, trinitarianism presents one God that is manifest in three persons that are seperate and eternally distinct. It is one WHAT and three WHOS Isaiah 44:8 states that God knows of no other gods.

Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic.....they do not believe in the same God, but they both believe that there is only ONE God.
"Christianity is completely monotheistic. Deut. 6:4 "The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!""

Anyone claiming that the Shema presents "one God that is manifest in three persons that are seperate and eternally distinct," knows nothing about the context and true meaning of these verses.

"one God that is manifest in three persons that are seperate and eternally distinct," If each three pesons are seperate and eternally distinct and eternally share the same essence of which Son and spirit are functionally subordinate to God the father then these three persons are three Gods not one God.

Each person of the Trinity is God right?Think about it carefully.


"Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic.....they do not believe in the same God, but they both believe that there is only ONE God


Islam is the only religion in the world that holds the true understanding of pure Monotheism that has not been perverted by erroneous philosophies and innovations conjectured my mankind .The God worshipped By Muhammed and Jesus (peace be upon them both) is indeed the same One God, however the descriptions,conjectures,speculatons and erroneous concepts that developed/applied to after Jesus' departure from this world is what seperates Islam from Christianity from recognizing the same true God.

IN name of Allah, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Say: He is God, the One and Only,
God the eternal, Absolute,
He does not beget,
neither is He beggotten,
and there is none like unto Him
Quran112

Fourty-Two
February 4th 2004, 08:04 AM
Quite frankly for all its "arcaic vagueness" Robyn Banks posts are really the only ones which take a hollistic view of the argument, which is fundamentally one of perspective. Even within each of these religions there are varying perspectives or denominations. This is understandable as each of us experience reality in a way which is unique as our fingerprint.

Apologetics, you seem a little too focussed on right and wrong religions (in other words you are still staring at the pointing hand), the question is not the route taken but the destination. Tell me if the destination is a 4 walled building each side a different colour, if a Christian sees the side which is blue and says the building is blue and a Muslim a side that is red and states the building is red, who is right and who is wrong? Or more to the point: Who was bearing witness to the truth? The same applies for the gods of polytheistic religions; in no way are they incompatible with the Gods of a monotheistic ones - you only need to look at the stratafied Hindu pantheon to see an example of this. Only the superficial skin of tradition and doctrine (which we have come to know as religion), created by Man to take ownership of his perspective, that is incompatible.

Or is this simply the "philosophical prattle" you were reffering to?

Hired Gun:

Sura 2.62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in the one God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

I guess the Quran can be as self-contradictory as the Bible. BTW put sura 5:70-1 into a historical context, it takes on a very different meaning.

sdr77
February 4th 2004, 08:56 PM
"Apologetics, you seem a little too focussed on right and wrong religions (in other words you are still staring at the pointing hand), the question is not the route taken but the destination. Tell me if the destination is a 4 walled building each side a different colour, if a Christian sees the side which is blue and says the building is blue and a Muslim a side that is red and states the building is red, who is right and who is wrong? Or more to the point: Who was bearing witness to the truth? The same applies for the gods of polytheistic religions; in no way are they incompatible with the Gods of a monotheistic ones - you only need to look at the stratafied Hindu pantheon to see an example of this. Only the superficial skin of tradition and doctrine (which we have come to know as religion), created by Man to take ownership of his perspective, that is incompatible."
Fourty-Two, I see in your arguement that it is assumed that all paths lead to God, in some fashion, from the statement "the question is not the route taken but the destination". (If I am assuming incorrectly, please forgive me). The problem with this is that Christianity is mutually exclusive in that Jesus said "I am the way , the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". Jn 14:6. Jesus did not claim to be a way, but the way to God. It cannot be both ways, either Christianity is correct and is the only true way to the "destination", or if all routes do lead to the same destination then Christ was wrong making Him a liar or a lunitic, rendering Christianity fallacious. You cannot have both.

Fourty-Two
February 4th 2004, 09:48 PM
sdr,

Come on, you're still looking at the hand, your entire interpretation of a religion seems to hinge on the syntax of a 1900 y.o. passage, translated and interprited several times before reaching the form you present it in, written by an unknown man 80 years after the events it purports to describe. I think this is a mistake made by many people across all religions.

But still all that aside, when you get your head around the whole concept (but not necessarily the subject lol) it is perfectly compatible with your quote. Think about it.

apologetics
February 5th 2004, 01:06 PM
Apologetics, you seem a little too focussed on right and wrong religions (in other words you are still staring at the pointing hand), the question is not the route taken but the destination. Tell me if the destination is a 4 walled building each side a different colour, if a Christian sees the side which is blue and says the building is blue and a Muslim a side that is red and states the building is red, who is right and who is wrong? Or more to the point: Who was bearing witness to the truth? The same applies for the gods of polytheistic religions; in no way are they incompatible with the Gods of a monotheistic ones - you only need to look at the stratafied Hindu pantheon to see an example of this. Only the superficial skin of tradition and doctrine (which we have come to know as religion), created by Man to take ownership of his perspective, that is incompatible.

Or is this simply the "philosophical prattle" you were reffering to?




42:

The destination is exactly what I am looking at. You seem to be unaware of what Jesus Christ stated about himself in the Bible....a book that Muslims have acknowledged (although placed subsurvient to the Koran) since Muhammad. As was pointed out by sdr, John 14:6 says all you need to know. Jesus Christ stated that I am theway, thetruth and thelife. He did not say that he was "A" way. He stated that he was "THE" way....implying something that is frown upon in our postmodernism....an absolute.

To place this into the proper context, we only need to understand that the Bible says about Jesus Christ (that he was God in human flesh) and what the Koran says about Jesus Christ (that he was a fully human prophet, but not even a prophet superior to Muhammad). It is interesting that Islam recognizes the sinless nature of Jesus Christ (but does not attribute the same to Mohammad), recognizes that he performed miracles (but does not attribute the same to Mohammad), but then gives him a subservient role to Mohammad. This is not logical. Now, if he was fully human and only fully human then he was trapped in the same sin nature that we all are trapped in, and the same sin nature that Mohammad was trapped in. If he was not, then he is ontologically superior to Mohammad and Islam is wrong.

Your comparison of monotheism and polytheism fails to understand the nature and essense of God. There cannot be more than one "god." A "god" is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. There cannot be more than one being who is all knowing and all present and all powerful. If there could be 2 or more they would overlap each other and their supposed distinctive natures would become irrelevent and indistinguishable.

apologetics
February 5th 2004, 01:11 PM
sdr,

Come on, you're still looking at the hand, your entire interpretation of a religion seems to hinge on the syntax of a 1900 y.o. passage, translated and interprited several times before reaching the form you present it in, written by an unknown man 80 years after the events it purports to describe. I think this is a mistake made by many people across all religions.

But still all that aside, when you get your head around the whole concept (but not necessarily the subject lol) it is perfectly compatible with your quote. Think about it.

You do not understand that nature of the manuscript evidence supporting the Bible, nor the process by which it has been translated to us. The manuscript that we hold in our hands today is not a translation of a translation of a translation, etc. This is a popular view....but an incorrect view. Scholars have 5600+ manuscripts dating back to as early as 90 A.D. to use TODAY in translating the Bible TODAY. They are not dealing with last years version of the Bible to come up with a translation today. The problem for Islam is that there is NO documented manuscript trail by which to follow back to the autographa written by Mohammad and many scholars believe that the Koran was so corrupted by doctrinal in fighting that the document possessed by Muslims today might not even resemble the one written by Mohammand. If you can provide information regarding what Muslims believe to be the evidential basis for the manuscript possessed by Islam today, I would be happy to look it over.....

heisonly1
February 7th 2004, 10:32 AM
You do not understand that nature of the manuscript evidence supporting the Bible, nor the process by which it has been translated to us. The manuscript that we hold in our hands today is not a translation of a translation of a translation, etc. This is a popular view....but an incorrect view. Scholars have 5600+ manuscripts dating back to as early as 90 A.D. to use TODAY in translating the Bible TODAY. They are not dealing with last years version of the Bible to come up with a translation today. The problem for Islam is that there is NO documented manuscript trail by which to follow back to the autographa written by Mohammad and many scholars believe that the Koran was so corrupted by doctrinal in fighting that the document possessed by Muslims today might not even resemble the one written by Mohammand. If you can provide information regarding what Muslims believe to be the evidential basis for the manuscript possessed by Islam today, I would be happy to look it over.....
Before I respond to the misconceptions you raised related to the preservation of the Quran both in manuscript and memorization form, please provide evidence of a COMPLETED MANUSCRIPT as early as 90 A.D. that you claim scholars use to translate the Bible today. I'd be very interested to see this COMPLETED MANUSCRIPT dating back as early as 90 A.D.

apologetics
February 8th 2004, 04:51 PM
Before I respond to the misconceptions you raised related to the preservation of the Quran both in manuscript and memorization form, please provide evidence of a COMPLETED MANUSCRIPT as early as 90 A.D. that you claim scholars use to translate the Bible today. I'd be very interested to see this COMPLETED MANUSCRIPT dating back as early as 90 A.D.



Firstly, no where in my post did I use the term "completed," did I? However, you bring up a good point....clarity. I apologize for not being more clear. There are 5600+ manuscripts and manuscript fragments dating back to the last first century.

The earliest fragment possessed by scholars today is a small fragment of the Book of John and is contained in teh John Ryulands Library in Manchester, England. Paleographer C. H. Roberts of St. John's College in Oxford has dated this fragment between 90 A.D. and 150 A.D. Five other prominent paleographers have examined the fragment independently (Wulrich Wilcken, W. H. P. Hatch, Harold Bell, Frederic Kenyon and Adolf Deissmann) and all agree that the fragment is early 2nd century at the absolute latest. Deissmann has concluded that it is probable that the fragment dates back to the reign of Emperor Trajan (98-117 A.D.)

The problems for the late dating of the gospels is two fold: Firstly, this is a copy of John. Therefore, for this to be a copy, the original obviously goes back even further, and secondly, even the most skeptical scholar states that John is the LAST of the gospels to be written. With Mark being considered the first gospel to be written, evidence such as this have forced even liberal theologians such as J.N.D. Anderson to conclude that there is no longer any reason to logically believe that all four gospels were not fully completed by A.D. 70. Many conservative scholars will even concede what is believed by opponents of the bible that John is a product of the 90's....however this still puts ALL FOUR gospels well within the lifetimes of the eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ's ministry. Curious thing is that there are NO KNOWN DOCUMENTS dated within this time period that state that Jesus did not live, that Jesus did not peform the miracles, that Jesus did not die through crucifixion.....and not a single one that claims that he did not rise from the dead or that the location of of tomb was known and shown to still contain his body.

The secondary problem facing opponents of the gospels are the writings of the early church fathers. If the Bible were to suddenly disappear today, the Bible could still be [b]completely[/i] recreated (with the exception of 11 verses from 3 John). This means that EVERY SINGLE verse of the gospels could be recreated from the writings of men who lived within 200 years of the death of Jesus Christ. Now, for this to be the case, these men would have had to read documents that were much older than they. By the year 200 A. D., the complete acceptance of the 4-fold gospels, and ONLY the for fold gospels had become axiomatic within the writings of many of the early church fathers, as had complete acceptance of approximately 20 of the 27 books contained in the New Testament today.

All of this fails to even address of the credel evidence that dates date back to within 3-5 years of the resurrection. For complete information of this see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus. All of this information only begins to scratch the surface of the documentary evidence enjoyed by Christianity.

When considering what was written about Jesus and when it was really written, it is interesting to compare it to Mohammad. Dr. Edwin Yamauchi, professor of Ancient History and Early Church History at Miami (Ohio) University points out that Mohammad lived from 570 A. D. to 632 A. D., however, the very first biography to be written about him was not written until 767. This is 145 years AFTER his death. But we are to believe that the information about Mohammad and what Mohammad really taught has been faithfully transmitted to us? Islam has a manuscript evidence problem from the very start.

Now, with all that known......I am anxiously awaiting all the evidence for the Koran and the EVIDENTIAL basis for the preservation of the Koran.....and please, do not just provide Muslim scholars.....

Fourty-Two
February 8th 2004, 08:53 PM
Indeed, I'm not sure a 6x9cm fragment constitutes a manuscript. I was also under the impression that the Rylands (I'm assuming this is what you are referring to) prapyrus was generally accepted to originate from 120-150 c.e. and the 90 c.e. date was more or less dismissed. I guess I live and learn
The number of documents "we" have today to translate today, has no bearing on the acuracy of an interpritation, meaning or social context. For instance in the translators introduction to Michel Foucault's "Discipline and Punish" Alan Sheridan explains that the concept of the original French title "Surveiller et Punir" could not be expressed accurately in English and, upon a suggestion by the Author, settled for the vague interpritation we have today. This is a translation problem between two very similar, contemporary, cultures with a more or less standardized dialect, you can see the problems that could occur accross vastly different cultures, languages (with their own varying dialects) etc. There has been speculation that this is actually responsible for the Virgin Birth myth, that Greek simply didn't have a word which adequately expressed a term describing certain judaic marriage practices at the time and settled for the closest thing. Then you have problems pertaining to definitions and time: if I use the word "nice" to describe Biblical content today I would be saying it is favourable or agreeable, if I said it in the the 16th century I'd be suggesting it was precise or accurate, and in the 14th century I would have been burned at the stake because I'd be saying it was was foolish, stupid and senseless.
You see, I don't need to dick about with how many manuscripts we have or how far back they date, just a simple understanding of the universal problems with translation to back up my statements does it nicely. To be perfectly frank the various versions of the bible is one of the best examples to demonstrate how vague translation actually is.

I'm not making a comparison between the Bible and Koran, so why do you bring it up? Are you attempting to change the argument? BTW, Mohammed didn't write down ANY copies of the Koran, as he was illiterate (if you bothered to read the Koran you should probably know this) and most of the variation came not from infighting but the fact it was written "scripta defectiva" and later, more accurately written versions relied on this for interpritation.

Fourty-Two
February 8th 2004, 11:02 PM
Apologetics, you are still stuck on the route and cannote differentiate between it and the destination because you are unable to look past the superficial and are stuck trying to think of everything in terms of right and wrong. This is not a black and white issue - it covers the gray area that perspective, as a rule, must generate. It is not necesary to know the intricate details (which you don't really seem to posess yourself) of the religions to understand they worship the same god.

The same applies to monotheism and polytheism, they are not mutually exclusive once you get past the superficial nature of religion, and realise that they are merely different descriptions of the same thing from different perspectives. Tell me, who was telling the truth regarding the colour of the building? The Christian or the Muslim?

The nature of god in this argument, as YOU see fit to define it, does not have any impact on this argument greater than that it offers your perspective on god, which is neither right nor wrong.

George Blaisdell
February 9th 2004, 02:25 PM
I came across the following and thought it might be of interest to those on this thread:

NEWS FROM THE ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN MISSION CENTER (OCMC)
http://www.ocmc.org
Subscribe/Unsubscribe information at the end of this email
===================================



From the Executive Director: Missions - Is this what the world needs now?
Feb 6, 2004



(Below is an editorial article from OCMC’s Fall 2003 Mission Magazine written by the Executive Director, Fr. Martin Ritsi.)



This past summer, an article was featured on the cover of the June 30, 2003 edition of Time magazine with the caption, “Should Christians Convert Muslims?” A subtitle of this went on to say that growing numbers of Evangelical missionaries are going to Muslim lands and, in light of this, asks, “Is this what the world needs now?” These questions are not uncommon. I remember my first journey to Africa and a discussion with a flight attendant who after learning I was a missionary told me, “I don’t think we should do missionary work. We should leave people to believe in God as they have found Him.” Ultimately, a response to this depends on what we believe about other religions and our own Christian faith. It is also at the heart of the primary objections to mission work mentioned in the Time article. Should we be converting Muslims? Does the world need missionaries now? These questions are pertinent to the work being done today through and by the Orthodox Christian Mission Center.



The Time magazine article opens with a lively description of a missionary to Muslims as she concludes a class in the United States to future missionaries. “Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him,” she says. “Christianity is a faith in which God sends his son to die for you.” The class then moves into a time of prayer and the missionary offers these words: “We pray that the weapon of mass destruction, Islam, be torn down. Lord, we declare that your blood is enough to forgive every single Muslim.” Later in the article another missionary is quoted as equating Islam in Iraq with Satan (…diplomacy does not work with Satan). And still another refers to Islam as “a very evil and wicked religion.” What is common among these missionaries is a view that Islam (and probably all religions outside of Christianity) is of the devil and that people following these religions are doomed to damnation.



Many people would recoil at such religious arrogance. In a book of essays by His Beatitude Anastasios (Yannoulatos), Archbishop of Tirana and all Albania recently released by St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, Facing the World: Orthodox Christian Essays on Global Concerns, one essay gives an in-depth look at the historical development of Christian perspectives towards other religions and then reviews these perspectives from an Orthodox point of view. Though originally written in 1987, the essay seems to be almost written directly in response to the questions raised by the Time magazine article. The essay sheds light on the questions at hand as it explores these various viewpoints towards other religions.



Several different perspectives towards other religions exist in various Christian circles. These theories alternate from one extreme to another. One view, held by quite a few early Christians and the same as the apparent position of the missionaries presented in the Time article I have highlighted, is that other religions are the work of the devil. Later, a more moderate view arose that would say all human beings have the ability to recognize the existence of God. From this came the thought that pre-Christian religions were part of an evolutionary process. At the opposite end of the spectrum, His Beatitude notes, is a perspective which places Christianity as merely one of many attempts to understand that which is beyond understanding. This position asserts that Christianity cannot possess the full truth and can be nothing more than the ‘first-born’ among its brothers ( p. 132-137).



Where among these theories do the Orthodox lie? After taking us through a historical development of Orthodox theological views, Archbishop Anastasios brings us to a perspective that is both balanced and at the heart of the best Orthodox missionary efforts. This view, rather than discrediting all other religions, challenges us to acknowledge the inspiration that exists in them. Religions “are born out of humanity’s yearning for the ‘sacred,’ and they keep the gates of human experience open to the infinite….every human person has the ability to receive intimations of the divine will. The rays of divine glory that embrace the entire universe are received by everyone. All human beings benefit from the activities of the Holy Spirit – activities that promote life, love and truth.”(p. 151-152). In regards to Islam, the Archbishop even states in a footnote that of “…all the living religions, Islam is the closest, both spiritually and geographically, to Orthodox Christianity.” (p. 119).



To have this perspective requires maturity and sensitivity because concepts are easier to grasp when they are presented in black and white, but here there are definite shades of gray. There are elements of divine revelation in other religions, which means that other religions are not necessarily all bad, as the missionaries presented by Time seem to believe. This also raises many questions. What, for example, does this mean in regards to mission work and towards persons who follow these religions? Do they have enough revelation? Do we need to adopt the revelation that is in them and possibly absent from Christianity? Should we just leave other people to follow “God as they have found Him,” as the flight attendant mentioned to me on that trip to Africa?



Archbishop Anastasios clarifies in his essay that, for an Orthodox Christian, the criterion by which all religious ideas and principles are evaluated is Jesus Christ. In Christianity, a radically different message is revealed to the world and at the center of that message is the truth that God is love. In addition, God became a human being and, through his Passion and Resurrection, He shatters the power of death and elevates humanity’s nature to the right hand of the Father. A new creation begins and humanity, after Christ, becomes different from humanity before Christ (p. 143-144, 152). This is radically different from anything found in other religions because no other serious religious teacher claimed to be God and no other religious teacher could alter the course of human destiny. Thus, even though other religions may contain elements of divine revelation, there is something unique, something ultimate, something which has changed the course of all humanity that is found through Jesus Christ and the Christian faith. That means that the Christian message does have something to offer people regardless of their religious background. It is a light that shines to illumine all people and it is a well of eternal water ready to give drink to a thirsty world.



Where do these reflections leave us, then, in regards to mission work and the questions raised by the Time article? There are two important conclusions I would draw. The first is that Archbishop Anastasios’ perspective of the world and the world’s religions is not compatible with the attitudes and potentially destructive missionary activity that the Time article portrayed. Rather, it is the foundation of an Orthodox approach to other religions whereby one is encouraged to reach out with respect, love and with a sincere desire to understand and to acknowledge the good in people and in other religious ideas. Rather than focusing on equating another Faith with Satan, an Orthodox mission approach is to find that which is good and from there to lead a person to the ultimate revelation of Jesus Christ Himself. Secondly, this perspective leaves no room to question, “Is this what the world needs now?” Jesus Christ has come for the world. He has come that the world might have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10). There is no time or circumstance that can make this reality irrelevant or not needed at any moment.



To finally answer the question, “Missions, is this what the world needs now?” I will end with a quote from the conclusion of Archbishop Anastasios’ essay. “The world is asking us to reveal the beauty of the Christian message by conscientiously living its principles, in the light of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. The world is looking for us to reveal, in the course of our daily reality, the beauty, radiance, glory and power in a life that has been made new in Christ. The world is calling upon us to radiate the presence of the Holy Spirit….It longs for the virtual transformation of human existence and for a communion with the transcendent power of Love” (p. 153). Yes, this is what the world needs now!



Reference: Facing the World: Orthodox Christian Essays on Global Concerns, Archbishop Anastasios (Yannoulatos), St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, Crestwood NY, 2003 - Translated by Pavlos Gottfried.

_______________________________________

And I offer the following as a summary, from the Spiritual Meadow:

Abba Ammonas came one day to eat in a place where there was a monk
of evil reputation. Now it happened that a woman came and entered the
cell of the brother of evil reputation. The dwellers in that place,
having learnt this, were troubled and gathered together to chase the
brother from his cell. Knowing that bishop Ammonas was in the place,
they asked him to join them. When the brother in question learnt this,
he hid the woman in a large cask and closed the lid. The crowd of monks
came to the place. Now Abba Ammonas saw the position clearly but for
the sake of God he kept the secret. He entered, seated himself on the
cask, and commanded the cell to be searched. When the monks had
searched everywhere without finding the woman, Abba Ammonas said,
"What is this? May God forgive you all!" After praying, he made
everyone go out, then taking the brother by the hand he said, "Brother,
be on your guard." With these words, he left.

[geo] Arsenios

apologetics
February 12th 2004, 02:55 PM
The number of documents "we" have today to translate today, has no bearing on the acuracy of an interpritation, meaning or social context.

No offense, but this statement shows a lack of what documents and document fragments exist, how many documents exist, what languagesthese documents exist in and how many their are in each language, and how many writings exist from early church fathers. The documentation for the Old and New Testament massively outweigh ANY OTHER DOCUMENT from antiquity. Not only this, but the copies that are extant today are almost non-existant when compared with ANY other document from antiquity.

For instance in the translators introduction to Michel Foucault's "Discipline and Punish" Alan Sheridan explains that the concept of the original French title "Surveiller et Punir" could not be expressed accurately in English and, upon a suggestion by the Author, settled for the vague interpritation we have today. This is a translation problem between two very similar, contemporary, cultures with a more or less standardized dialect, you can see the problems that could occur accross vastly different cultures, languages (with their own varying dialects) etc.

Only when the true facts of the manuscript evidence is known, can the complete inadequacy of your example above be fully known. Your argument needs to be drawn out to its logical conclusion. No language can be faithfully translated into another, no document from antiquity written in any language other than English means anything, effective and efficient communication between languages is futile and those studying and becoming conversant in other languages have wasted their time. This is obviously a fallacious conclusion.

The NT manuscripts exant today exist in Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Arminian, Gothic, Georgian, Ethiopic and Nubian. Granted, these are copies of the originals, but all date within the first 500 years following the death of Jesus....and they all say the same thing. For your "translation problem" to hold any water, we should have seen vastly divergent theological concepts develop. However this has not been the case. Your example also fails to take into consideration the vast amount of information gathered through the collaborative efforts of the fields of history, archaeology, paleography, linguistics, etc. It is hardly a matter of translation and translation alone. With your belief in faulty translation, the study of any of these fields would be impossible outside of the primary language of the researcher.

You see, I don't need to dick about with how many manuscripts we have or how far back they date, just a simple understanding of the universal problems with translation to back up my statements does it nicely. To be perfectly frank the various versions of the bible is one of the best examples to demonstrate how vague translation actually is.

Your oversimplification of this issue is quite shocking. In addition, your comments about the "various versions" of the bible shows a lack of proper knowledge. There is one version of the Bible that has been translated into various languages. However, this is not a translation process that has had to rely on the previous translation. Translations have appeared for various reasons throughout history, but NONE have included information not previously included. Have any of these "versions" taught anything different than, say, the Latin Vulgate, Codex Vaticanus or Codex Alexandrinus? I would challenge you to provide one teaching of today's Christian Church that has been perverted through this "vague translation" process.

I'm not making a comparison between the Bible and Koran, so why do you bring it up? Are you attempting to change the argument?

You stated earlier, and I will quote:

...your entire interpretation of a religion seems to hinge on the syntax of a 1900 y.o. passage, translated and interprited several times before reaching the form you present it in, written by an unknown man 80 years after the events it purports to describe. I think this is a mistake made by many people across all religions.

It was not I that brought up this subject. I just thought that if you were going to comment on it incorrectly, it should be pointed out.

BTW, Mohammed didn't write down ANY copies of the Koran, as he was illiterate (if you bothered to read the Koran you should probably know this) and most of the variation came not from infighting but the fact it was written "scripta defectiva" and later, more accurately written versions relied on this for interpritation.

As I have stated....the Qur'an has manuscript evidence problems from the start. The Qur'an is based on the information provided to ONE MAN and this man could not write. The Qur'an makes no claims of divinity for Mohammad, so we are to understand him as a [u]man[/i] and man only. But, we are asked, by Islam, to believe that the memory of this one man was not only faithfully transmitted to the next person faithfully in verbal form, but these teachings somehow survived intact until it could be written down? Sure..... I might as well just believe what Buddhism teaches about the original Buddha's teachings in the Tripitaka....even though these teachings weren't put into writing until 400 years later.....

The manuscript evidence between the two religions is central to any discussion of the validity of Christianity or the validity of Islam. If you cannot provide evidence for the validity of the teachings, then it is hardly worth discussing further. This becomes blind faith.