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STR Ambassador
January 27th 2004, 05:30 PM
Christianity has been called cruel because it teaches that Jews killed Jesus and that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. The first incites persecution; the second denies that goodness matters in God’s assessment. This challenge, though, misunderstands both the nature of history and the nature of justice.

Is Christianity Cruel?

Moviegoers will soon get an eyeful from Academy Award-winning producer Mel Gibson. His latest film, “The Passion,” chronicles the final twelve hours in the life of Jesus, including the most authentic—and graphic—portrayal to date of the brutality Jesus experienced at the hands of His executioners.
Though the movie is not even in distribution yet, the controversy has already begun. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has weighed in with their concern. Since Vatican II in the 60s, the Catholic Church has vigorously disavowed Jews’ responsibility for Jesus’ death, a view that historically has been used as grounds for persecution of Jews as “Christ killers.”
The Jewish Anti-Defamation League also expressed alarm. “Will [the “Passion”] correct the unambiguous depiction of Jews as the ones responsible for the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus?” they wondered, according to the Washington Post.
Jewish leaders have long been deeply sensitive to any characterization of Christ’s passion that would transfer guilt collectively to the Jews. Even prominent pro-Christian Jewish thinker Dennis Prager has voiced misgivings about Christianity in this area. In a piece entitled “When Religion Makes People Cruel” I found this comment: “Historically, the greatest evidence of the ability of religion to make a person cruel can be found among believing Christians.”
The general point of the article was a good one: Sometimes the directives of a particular religion seem at odds with basic morality. But is Christianity guilty here? Do the specific teachings of the New Testament produce cruel people and cruel situations?
Prager gave two examples. First, pogroms against Jews have been justified because the Christian Bible blamed Jews for killing Jesus. Second, Christianity is cruel because it teaches that all non-Christians, regardless of how God-fearing, moral, or kind, will suffer eternal torment, while all believers in Jesus, regardless of their behavior, have salvation.
The first point is a serious non-sequitur. The second errs principally because of a misunderstanding of the role of goodness in salvation, an issue even many Christians are seriously confused on.
Our fundamental questions are simple: Does the Bible teach these things, and do these teachings, by their nature, lead to cruelty in those who believe them?

Is It Cruel to Hold that Jews Killed Jesus?
The Christian Bible does, in fact, teach that Jewish leadership was responsible for the execution of Jesus. But this, in itself, is not cruel. First, it’s not a religious dogma of Christianity, but a somewhat incidental historical footnote. Second, if Prager’s accusation sticks, then, oddly enough, Judaism ends up being cruel, too. Let me explain.
First, the identity of Jesus’ executioners is irrelevant to Christian dogma. What is critical to dogma is that Jesus truly died and was raised, not that any particular group was responsible for His death. Indeed, from the perspective of theology all men are responsible for the death of Christ because all sinned, and this the New Testament is very clear on. Further, Jesus made it clear that He gave His life willingly. No one takes His life from Him, He said, but He lays it down on His own initiative (John 10:18).
The question here is not doctrinal, but historical. The Gospel accounts merely report what happened, that Jews had Jesus executed for religious reasons. Historical facts are either true or false, not cruel or kind. If a particular thing actually happened, then it cannot be cruel to believe it.
Incidentally, the Bible is not the only historical record to implicate Jews in Christ’s passion. The Jewish scripture known as the Babylonian Talmud suggests the same thing. Sanhedrin 43a says, “On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu (the Nazarene) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.’”
The Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 107b states, “Jesus performed magic and incited the people of Israel and led them astray.” According to these Jewish texts, Jesus was executed for religious crimes and offenses that mattered to Jews, not for political sedition against the Roman Empire.
Second, cruelty to Jews does not follow from the assertion that Jews were instrumental in the death of Jesus. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we see this. Quite the contrary, the early Christians brought their message of forgiveness and reconciliation to the Jews first, with no animosity.
Further, the Christians of the first couple of centuries were excessively pacifistic and wouldn’t lift a finger to defend even themselves, much less take revenge on the Jews. Revenge was not only forbidden by the New Testament, it was unnecessary. According to Christian teaching, the execution of Christ was used by God to accomplish salvation for all who would believe. The death of Jesus was a great good to Christians, not an evil that needed avenging. It wasn’t until centuries after Christ that the institutional church used such illegitimate justification for malicious actions against non-Christians.

Is Judaism Cruel?
Third, this line of thinking also makes Judaism cruel. In the first century the Jewish belief that Jesus was not the Messiah was the animus for systematic persecution of Christians. Stephen was murdered by a mob of Jewish leaders for pointing out that the Jews habitually rejected God’s chosen deliverer—from Joseph, to Moses, down through the prophets, even to Messiah. In fact, most Christian martyrs from 33 to 64 A.D. died at the hands of Jews.
Here’s the dilemma. This argument holds that Christians murdered Jews because they believed Jews killed Christ. Therefore, the belief that Jews killed Christ is evil and Christianity is cruel for teaching it. But Jews murdered Christians because Jews believed Jesus was not the Messiah, as Christians claimed. Therefore, the belief that Jesus is not the Messiah is evil, and Judaism is cruel for teaching it. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The fact is, evil people of all religious persuasions may seize upon religious justification for their immoral behavior, even when the behavior itself is condemned by the religion they purport to serve. When that happens, it’s simply mistaken to blame the religion. It may be that some of the greatest acts of cruelty came from professing Christians who used their religion as a cloak for evil. Christianity itself, though, doesn’t cause such evil. Rather, it consistently condemns it.

Is It Cruel to Hold that Jesus Is the Only Way to Heaven?
The second objection states that it’s cruel to teach that all non-Christians, regardless of how God-fearing, moral, or kind, will suffer eternal torment, while all believers in Jesus, regardless of their behavior, have salvation.
First, even if this depiction was entirely true, it escapes me how teaching this makes one cruel. Historically such thinking has stimulated great kindness: acts of charity, mercy, and love to make more tangible and palatable a message of God’s forgiveness that people desperately need. History is replete with wonderful examples of self-sacrifice and profound acts of love from Christians whose chief motivation was their belief that people perish eternally without Christ. It may be that Christians are mistaken here, but I fail to see how such a view makes them cruel.
Second, this is largely a straw man; the depiction is not true. Christianity does not teach that all “believers” in Christ, no matter what their behavior, have eternal salvation. In the Bible words are cheap and behavior is dear. Mere professions of faith are worthless. John says explicitly, “He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar,” and “Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 2:4, 3:10). Jesus Himself said, “By their fruits you shall know them.”
But what about good people? Does Christianity hold that goodness is irrelevant to God? Here we must take our time and weigh our words carefully.
First, the Old Testament puts the issue of human goodness in perspective. Isaiah 64:6-7 says, “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”
The Psalmist adds, “They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds. There is no one who does good. The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside. Together they have become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one” (Psalm 14:1-3).
These are strong words. The prophet affirms that our iniquity overwhelms our goodness. The Psalmist declares that our corruption consumes us. This is God’s perspective. We are all guilty, from the least to the great.
This is precisely the Christian testimony. The New Testament does not teach that good deeds are of no value. It teaches that good deeds cannot pay for bad deeds. This is a critical point of misunderstanding, even by Christians.

Why Good Can’t Pay for Bad
Our problem is not goodness, but badness. Yes, God demands that we live ethically. But what about those moments when we don’t? The most vital issue Christianity answers is “How can we be right with God when we are not thoroughly good?”
There is profound misunderstanding on this point, as I said, and part of the misunderstanding is because many err in defining goodness according to human standards, that is, good “more or less”—basically good. God, on this view, is concerned with what kind of individual one is “on average.” He’s not examining every corner of one’s life to find any dirt there. If the good outweighs the bad, if good is predominant, then God winks at the occasional moral lapse.
But justice never works like this, does it? The law demands that “on average” each person obey every law always, not most laws usually. You can be an upstanding citizen all your life, but one single crime is still going to bring you before the court.
Further—and this is absolutely critical—no amount of good behavior pays for bad behavior. Period. Law requires consistent goodness, and that which is already owed cannot be used to pay for new debts.
God, like all lawgivers, requires nothing less than moral perfection. “But that’s impossible,” you say. You’re right. That’s why we need a Savior.
For those inclined to disagree with this point, I have this question: If laws can be violated with no expectation of punishment (since the law does not demand perfection) then which laws or what percentage of the law can be disobeyed with impunity, with no consequence of justice?
The Christian claim is simply this: Every person stands guilty before God in some measure. Good deeds cannot atone for bad deeds because one already owes God obedient, righteous, moral behavior. Instead, we must seek forgiveness, and since God is the one offended, we must seek forgiveness from Him on His terms.
The New Testament teaching is that God’s terms involve Jesus, and a rejection of Jesus is a rejection of God’s forgiveness. One who rejects forgiveness is still in his sin; he’s still under judgment.
Here’s a simple way of putting it. One day every single one of us, the morally great and small alike, will stand before God to be judged for our own crimes, such as they are—some more, some less. Either we pay for them ourselves, or we let Jesus pay for them for us. That’s it. If we refuse forgiveness through Jesus, then we stand alone to endure God’s penalty.
That’s the New Testament teaching. There’s nothing bizarre, unfair, outlandish, or cruel about it. The only cruelty is knowing this information and withholding it.
I certainly agree that religion can make people cruel. But that’s only because either the religion itself is false and therefore does not reflect God’s morality, or because the religion is true, but its ethics are either misunderstood or misapplied. The latter happens frequently with Christianity. That’s not the fault of its founder, though, or its founding principles; it’s the fault of its followers.


Stand to Reason - www.str.org

Trout
March 3rd 2004, 11:24 PM
I find it interesting that since it's release, (The Passion of the Christ) the cries of anti-semitism have quieted.

Jude3b
March 4th 2004, 12:55 AM
Yes, according to I Thessalonians 2: 14 & 15 - the Jews did kill Jesus.

Spokoina
March 4th 2004, 01:04 AM
Yes, according to I Thessalonians 2: 14 & 15 - the Jews did kill Jesus.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

kofh2u
March 4th 2004, 04:27 PM
Yes, according to I Thessalonians 2: 14 & 15 - the Jews did kill Jesus.

Did Catholics kill Joan of Arc?
Or, was it Roman Catholic Priests?

Did Catholic imprison Galilleo?
Or, was it the Vatican?

Did Germans kill 6 million Jews?
Or, was it the Nazi?

Did white people kill Martin Luther King?
Or, was it redneck radicals?

Did Black Muslims kill Malcom X?
Or, was it a faction in the leadership?

Did Jews kill Jesus?
Or, was it Jew Priests?

Did catholics burn Heretics at the stake?
Or, was it the Inquidition?

Is the killer Dogma?
Or, is this wrong: "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." John 16:2

Jude3b
March 5th 2004, 01:25 AM
It seems that a lot of people at Theology Web have trouble accepting what the Bible says, "The Jews did kill Jesus" (I Thess. 2:14 & 15)

Trout
March 5th 2004, 01:53 AM
It seems that a lot of people at Theology Web have trouble accepting what the Bible says, "The Jews did kill Jesus" (I Thess. 2:14 & 15)

Jesus gave up His life, no one took it from him. Read John 10

Otto
March 5th 2004, 02:48 AM
It seems that a lot of people at Theology Web have trouble accepting what the Bible says, "The Jews did kill Jesus" (I Thess. 2:14 & 15)

"Or do you think that I cannot pray to my Father, and he will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?" How then could the scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?" Matt:53,54

if you do the math, twelve legions of angels could annihilate the entire population of this planet and then some. We all killed Jesus. The Jews and the Romans were simply instruments used by God to sacrifice His Son. Jesus allowed His crucifixion to take place.

kofh2u
March 5th 2004, 03:56 AM
"Or do you think that I cannot pray to my Father, and he will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?" How then could the scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?" Matt:53,54

if you do the math, twelve legions of angels could annihilate the entire population of this planet and then some. We all killed Jesus. The Jews and the Romans were simply instruments used by God to sacrifice His Son. Jesus allowed His crucifixion to take place.


I like your attitude and perspective, but I focus on the fact that the priesthood killed Jesus (not the Jew crowds and his 120 Jew followers) EVEN though he might have avoided their execution of him.

He died making a statement for us to think about:

Today, we have 12 major christian denominations. They tolerate one another as well as this age might expect. Nevertheless, they are politicised. They will defend and debate every issue that opposes the doctrinre which they essential WORSHIP.

In this, they are mimicking the example of the people chosen to illustrate such human behavior, the Jew priesthood of two denominations, Pharisee and Sadduccee.

They miss the point of the sacrifice.

The messiah will be, is prophesied to be, in opposition with the institutionalized dogmas. He who come, even this second time will not escape their tribunal, tho' it will be they who will be crucified in their conceits.

These 12 major denominations value members and membership more than objective open reflection. With them, size does matter.

They teach and encourage closed-mindedness and self-assured certainty. Even in the face of hundreds of things they all must defer to future explanation, the Urim/Thummim/ the geometry of cube shaped Most Holies/New Jerusalem/Kaaba/teffilim/etc, hidden manna, iron rod, white stones, 4 faced cherubim, seven spirits, fan in the hand of Jesus, no death, no pain, on and on Their ignorance of their own ignorance is immense. Is it not? Does it moderate their conceit in their dogma?

Consider the message of Jew priests conspiring. What will happen when the ecumenical rapture of Rev 7 rallies around David, the lion of Judah? When he opens the scriptures (Rev 5) that no man has yet successfully explained (without invention and recourse to magicall unearthly power beyond the secular comprehension). Will they listen or formulate retort?

Rev. 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am a large denominational church, and increased with tithes, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art without secularly acceptable scripture confirmations, and defensive of erroneous doctrine, and in decline of church membership, and trapped in Dogma, and unprotected from an ever growing secular Age of Enlightment:

Otto
March 7th 2004, 02:34 AM
Today, we have 12 major christian denominations. They tolerate one another as well as this age might expect. Nevertheless, they are politicised. They will defend and debate every issue that opposes the doctrinre which they essential WORSHIP.

In this, they are mimicking the example of the people chosen to illustrate such human behavior, the Jew priesthood of two denominations, Pharisee and Sadduccee.

They miss the point of the sacrifice.

The messiah will be, is prophesied to be, in opposition with the institutionalized dogmas. He who come, even this second time will not escape their tribunal, tho' it will be they who will be crucified in their conceits.

These 12 major denominations value members and membership more than objective open reflection. With them, size does matter.

They teach and encourage closed-mindedness and self-assured certainty. Even in the face of hundreds of things they all must defer to future explanation, the Urim/Thummim/ the geometry of cube shaped Most Holies/New Jerusalem/Kaaba/teffilim/etc, hidden manna, iron rod, white stones, 4 faced cherubim, seven spirits, fan in the hand of Jesus, no death, no pain, on and on Their ignorance of their own ignorance is immense. Is it not? Does it moderate their conceit in their dogma?

Consider the message of Jew priests conspiring. What will happen when the ecumenical rapture of Rev 7 rallies around David, the lion of Judah? When he opens the scriptures (Rev 5) that no man has yet successfully explained (without invention and recourse to magicall unearthly power beyond the secular comprehension). Will they listen or formulate retort?

Rev. 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am a large denominational church, and increased with tithes, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art without secularly acceptable scripture confirmations, and defensive of erroneous doctrine, and in decline of church membership, and trapped in Dogma, and unprotected from an ever growing secular Age of Enlightment:

Well said. I agree that many Christian churches are like the church of the Laodiceans. 2 Tim 4:2-5 is a very good description of the Christian church in America. Too many churchgoers want their ears tickled. There's lots of wolves in sheeps clothing, just watch most televangelist. You'll rarely hear a hellfire and brimstone sermon(might scare away some of the flock). Unfortunately, the majority of Christians do not crack open their bibles to test what they are told by men. If only more were like the Bereans. It amazes me how many believers that say they've been saved for several years haven't even read the Old Testament.

Jude3b
March 7th 2004, 03:02 AM
It seems that a lot of people at Theology Web have trouble accepting what the Bible says, "The Jews did kill Jesus" (I Thess. 2:14 & 15)

Make any comment you like, but the Word of God states that the Jews killed Jesus. I'm glad they did because that made the plan of salvation complete and now I get to go to heaven. I don't hold it against the Jews, because I am just as guilty a sinner as any of the Jews - Jesus died for me and them both.

kofh2u
March 7th 2004, 01:17 PM
Make any comment you like, but the Word of God states that the Jews killed Jesus. I'm glad they did because that made the plan of salvation complete and now I get to go to heaven. I don't hold it against the Jews, because I am just as guilty a sinner as any of the Jews - Jesus died for me and them both.

"....and now I get to go to heaven"

It may be just that simple, multiple choice questions by St Gab, right at the gates to the cube shaped New Jerusalem:

1) Who killed Socrates?

A) The Greeks
B) The Greek political authorities
C) Greek matriarchy
D) The cultural system of things

2) Who killed the Gentile Chtistians in this passage:

1 Thessalonians 2
14For you, Gentile brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are HebrewpChristian congregations, in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen, Roman, Greek, gentile, the same things those HebrewpChristian churches suffered from THOSE Jews, the religious, intolerant, Jewish Inquisitors, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, for they have long hrld this practice of censorship, and also drove us, all Jews, out. They displease God, the Word, they misinterpret it, and are hostile to all men of conscience and thoughtful reflection.

A) All Jews, then and now, they all said, Let it be on us and our children."

B) Just a few mean priests

C) The ever so sure and rigtheous church goers/Inquisitions/my denomination only people

(hint: John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.)

3) When did you last see Jesus, face to face?

A) When I fed the hungry and thirsty

B) When I clothed the naked and invited them to my home.

C) In prison and the hospital


D) all of the above

Socrates
March 8th 2004, 07:31 AM
Make any comment you like, but the Word of God states that the Jews killed Jesus.
I dunno what you mean by the Word of God, but the Bible is what I mean, and it says the opposite:

Luke 18:31-32 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him."
Note who is doing the flogging and killing.

dizzle
March 8th 2004, 07:36 AM
No one "killed" Jesus ultimately. He said that no one took His life but He laid it down of His own accord. As Greg Koukl has pointed out numerous times, Jesus was not a victim and was always in control.

However, to avoid Jewish responsibility to say that it was the Romans who actually did the deed is to ignore what the text ultimately says and principle of agency. However, this is not a condemnation of the Jews of today or the Jews of any other time period, or even all of the Jews of that time period, only the apostates who did the deed.

It is the unwitting implication of dispensationalism that makes Jews of today and the future responsible and having to bear the punishment for the crimes of long dead ancestors who took the punishment due them.

Socrates
March 8th 2004, 08:53 AM
No one "killed" Jesus ultimately. He said that no one took His life but He laid it down of His own accord. As Greg Koukl has pointed out numerous times, Jesus was not a victim and was always in control.
Not disputed, and I've pointed out the same on TWeb.

However, to avoid Jewish responsibility to say that it was the Romans who actually did the deed is to ignore what the text ultimately says and principle of agency.
The text however is very clear that the gentiles did the deed.

However, this is not a condemnation of the Jews of today or the Jews of any other time period, or even all of the Jews of that time period, only the apostates who did the deed.
Of course.

It is the unwitting implication of dispensationalism that makes Jews of today and the future responsible and having to bear the punishment for the crimes of long dead ancestors who took the punishment due them.
Strange -- dispensationalists have historically been among the most pro-semitic of Christians, while anti-semitism has been more common among covenant theologians and liturgical Christians.

dizzle
March 8th 2004, 09:11 AM
The text however is very clear that the gentiles did the deed.

When a mother contracts for an abortion, she doesn't suck the baby out, yet we say she murdered her child, do we not? It is a shallow view of responsibility that only lays it at the hand of whoever "did the deed." The fact is that the ROMANS in general are portrayed somewhat sympathetically at this point in the Gospels, and it was some brute grunts that actually did "did the deed." Yet we don't here any condemnation of the Romans for this "deed" yet scathing denunciations by Christ and the disciples to the apostate Jews of that time period for the deed. Not Jews of all time, as the ones doing the denouncing were Jews themselves.


Strange -- dispensationalists have historically been among the most pro-semitic of Christians, while anti-semitism has been more common among covenant theologians and liturgical Christians.

Re-read my statement. I didn't say practical outworking, I said unwitting implication. And support for an earthly nation of Israel that is fanatically against Christ in many ways is not de facto pro-Semitic. I politically am in support of Israel but it has nothing to do with a misplaced Biblical reason. What is labeled "pro-Semiticism" amongst dispensationalisms is a distortion of the concept in many cases. How "pro-semitic" is it to pour money into relocating Jews into their homeland in an attempt to fulfill prophecy, the very samem prophecy those persons believe will result in the extermnation of 2/3rds of them? That is madness. If I believed in a future GreatTrib I would be warning Jews to go anywhere but Israel if I cared for their lives. I certainly wouldn't be sending money to rebuild a temple either which the NT clearly teaches would be an abomination to God.

BIG CLARIFICATION: I am a former dispensationalist. I do not beleive that dispensationalists are antisemitic by any means. I do think that the logical implications of their theology places blame for a first century crime on Jews of all time. That does not mean this is realized or acted out upon by any dispensationalist. In fact it is not. But it is this realization that helped me utterly abandon that system of theology amongst many other things, but my eyes have been opened to it.

And these categorizations should be meaningless to Christians. I am not pro-Semitic any more than I am pro-Italian. I am pro the people for whom Christ died, which is ALL men.

Socrates
March 10th 2004, 01:10 AM
When a mother contracts for an abortion, she doesn't suck the baby out, yet we say she murdered her child, do we not? It is a shallow view of responsibility that only lays it at the hand of whoever "did the deed."
Who was doing that? I was pointing out a Scripture that belayed a claim that only the Jews were responsible. I'm perfectly aware that Jesus told Pilate that the ones who handed Him over had the greater sin -- this still implies that Pilate was sinful.

The fact is that the ROMANS in general are portrayed somewhat sympathetically at this point in the Gospels, and it was some brute grunts that actually did "did the deed."
Actually, Pilate is portrayed as gratuitously adding the brutal penalty of scourging to a man he knew was innocent, without the Jews even asking for it.

Yet we don't here any condemnation of the Romans for this "deed" yet scathing denunciations by Christ and the disciples to the apostate Jews of that time period for the deed. Not Jews of all time, as the ones doing the denouncing were Jews themselves.
An important point that can't be overemphasised :thumb:

Re-read my statement. I didn't say practical outworking, I said unwitting implication.
Most nebulous.

And support for an earthly nation of Israel that is fanatically against Christ in many ways is not de facto pro-Semitic. I politically am in support of Israel but it has nothing to do with a misplaced Biblical reason. What is labeled "pro-Semiticism" amongst dispensationalisms is a distortion of the concept in many cases. How "pro-semitic" is it to pour money into relocating Jews into their homeland in an attempt to fulfill prophecy, the very samem prophecy those persons believe will result in the extermnation of 2/3rds of them? That is madness. If I believed in a future GreatTrib I would be warning Jews to go anywhere but Israel if I cared for their lives. I certainly wouldn't be sending money to rebuild a temple either which the NT clearly teaches would be an abomination to God.
I have no idea what you mean. The only dispensational ministry I have studied in any depth is www.ariel.com The founder, Hebrew Christian Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, points out that there is no need to pour such money in, because Israel will fund any Jew returning. Dr Frucht's priority is to bring the gospel to the Jews and disciple them. Ministries such as ICEJ that do prioritize returning Jews to their homeland are NOT dispensationalist.

And these categorizations should be meaningless to Christians. I am not pro-Semitic any more than I am pro-Italian. I am pro the people for whom Christ died, which is ALL men.
Not that anyone doubts that. And Dr Frucht is adamant that no one can be saved, Jew or Gentile, without conscious faith in Yeshua the Messiah, fully God and fully man.

dizzle
March 11th 2004, 11:21 PM
Who was doing that? I was pointing out a Scripture that belayed a claim that only the Jews were responsible. I'm perfectly aware that Jesus told Pilate that the ones who handed Him over had the greater sin -- this still implies that Pilate was sinful.

Your post appeared to emphasize the guilt of the Romans of that time, and not the apostates of that time.


Actually, Pilate is portrayed as gratuitously adding the brutal penalty of scourging to a man he knew was innocent, without the Jews even asking for it.

Again read my post. You are arguing against a point I didn't made, which makes me think that you are arguing for the sake of arguing, a practice of which I am not interested.


An important point that can't be overemphasised :thumb:

Thank you and I wholeheartedly agree.


Most nebulous.

Not nebulous whatsover. I was very clear. And even more clear to someone such as yourself who know my positions pretty clearly so to claim ambuiguity considered such high context is simply unfair.


I have no idea what you mean. The only dispensational ministry I have studied in any depth is www.ariel.com The founder, Hebrew Christian Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, points out that there is no need to pour such money in, because Israel will fund any Jew returning. Dr Frucht's priority is to bring the gospel to the Jews and disciple them.

I am not terribly fammiliar with him. I do have his treatise Israelogy.


Ministries such as ICEJ that do prioritize returning Jews to their homeland are NOT dispensationalist.

I am not familair with that ministr Christian ministries that place an emphasis on returning Jews to their homeland and in the rebuilding of the Temple are in fact dispensational in my experience. I certainly know of NO dispensational minsitry warning Jews to stay away.