Why Islam Can Not Save:

[seer]

Romans 3:21-28

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

God only justifies through faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice. Doing the deeds of the law will not justify any man,apart from faith in the blood of Christ.

[menj]

So this is the Christian "logic" of things: appeal to circular reasoning and say that what the Bible says is true because it is the word of God, and it is the word of God because it says so :lol: :lol: :blush: :lol:

And in a tit-for-tat response, we shall quote from the Qur'an as follows:

"And they say: 'None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian'. Say: Produce your proof if ye are truthful!." (Qur'an, 2:111)

Have a nice day.

- MENJ
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org

[seer]

It comes downs what you believe. The Quran or Scripture. And who you believe. Christ or Mohammad.

[Jin-Roh]

It comes downs what you believe. The Quran or Scripture. And who you believe. Christ or Mohammad.

Seer, what's the deal?
If this is all there is why did you bother trying to make an agrument anyway?
Do you realize that in order for your initial argument to be true, the Bible first has to be true?

Its the same as when I read a book by Ankerberg and the author stated as one of the evidences for Christianity was that Christianity provided the best and the only practical salvation message for mankind.

It's just blowing hot air.

[seer]

Seer, what's the deal?
If this is all there is why did you bother trying to make an agrument anyway?
Do you realize that in order for your initial argument to be true, the Bible first has to be true?

Of course scripture is true. Certainly the Quran isn't. That was a revelation of Satan.

[Twilly Spree]

Oh my goodness Seer, really. I personally don't think you're displaying very Christiam like behavior. Have some respect!

Also not all Christian denomnations believe the same thing on salvation. The Catholic Chruch holds that people that 1) Are never given the chance to know Jesus or 2) Believe in divine providence and are inherently Good will be saved. And I personally deep down, believe that God has a plan for those of Islam too. He would not forsake them, and show no mercy to someone that has been good and followed his will all their life without even knowing him.

[seer]

Oh my goodness Seer, really. I personally don't think you're displaying very Christiam like behavior. Have some respect!

Also not all Christian denomnations believe the same thing on salvation. The Catholic Chruch holds that people that 1) Are never given the chance to know Jesus or 2) Believe in divine providence and are inherently Good will be saved. And I personally deep down, believe that God has a plan for those of Islam too. He would not forsake them, and show no mercy to someone that has been good and followed his will all their life without even knowing him.


Perhaps I was a bit harsh...

[Jin-Roh]

Of course scripture is true. Certainly the Quran isn't. That was a revelation of Satan.

I guess I'm going to have to ask now.
Seer, why do you believe that the Scripture (for our sake, just the NT) is true?

I don't disagree with you seer, but let me just play devil's advocate if you don't mind.

[geneticperfecti]

Of course scripture is true. Certainly the Quran isn't. That was a revelation of Satan. This ranks up there as one of the worst displays of logic ever seen on an internet board...and thats pretty damned bad!



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[Christianotaku]

But of course the quran teaches that muslims should follow the bible too

[kofh2u]

So this is the Christian "logic" of things: appeal to circular reasoning and say that what the Bible says is true because it is the word of God, and it is the word of God because it says so :lol: :lol: :blush: :lol:

And in a tit-for-tat response, we shall quote from the Qur'an as follows:

"And they say: 'None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian'. Say: Produce your proof if ye are truthful!." (Qur'an, 2:111)

Have a nice day.

- MENJ
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org



Hello.

Yes, religious people of every sort have a tendency to be subjective in their reasoning. Perhaps the essence of the second commandment, to love (especially) one's enemies, gets set aside by both Muslim and Christian in the dialogue between them, especially so today. We love you bro, inspite of the political situation.

Most people miss the subtle "side issue" in regard to the Martyrdom of Christ. That is, he exercised free speech in a day when that commodity was terribly expensive.
FREEDOM of SPEECH... an ideal that has not reavh everywhere and one that would have avoided the crucifixion, would it not?

That free speech, only in Western Democracies, is so cheap now, people often throw a lot of it around without considering the waste.

Nevertheless, I would point out that the Christian who speaks his mind, based solely on faith, may not consciously have in his mind the key to his own reasoning.

That is, there is an actual "key."
Our holy book predicts the appearance of a key, which we take as to be without error, inspite of Islamic denials. We have no "Satanic Verses."

There IS a "hidden manna." It is yet to come, foretold in the prophecy of Revelation.
Christians also await an "end of the mystery concerning all dialogue about God"(Rev 10:7).

This suggests that Islam will also review it, when it comes, this "key" or "hidden manna."

Will not the Mullahs review and redefine their teachings when this wisdom reaches the world religious community? I suggest that they must.


Rev. 9:1 And the fifth ARCHETYPE sounded, and I saw a PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF ARCHETYPAL THOUGHT and to him was given the KEY of the SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE.

Rev. 9:2 And he opened the SCRIPTURES; and there arose AN ASCENSION OF PRAYERS out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the WISDOM OF THE DAY and the CULTURE OF THE TIMES were darkened by reason of the PRAYERS ANSWERED OUT of the pit.

[Jude3b]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh...

No you weren't. Hang in there. Truth is absolute and the Word of God - the Bible is absolutely true!

Seer, You know as well as I that Jesus Christ alone is: "The Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes unto the Father, but by Him!" That is all inclusive.

Twilly Spree won't go to heaven because she is tolerant of Islam or because she is a Roman Catholic.

Without Jesus Christ, none of us will make it to heaven. But with Jesus Christ, we can all be saved - including the Muslim and even the Roman Catholic. Amen

[Didaktylos]

No you weren't. Hang in there. Truth is absolute and the Word of God - the Bible is absolutely true!

Seer, You know as well as I that Jesus Christ alone is: "The Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes unto the Father, but by Him!" That is all inclusive.

Twilly Spree won't go to heaven because she is tolerant of Islam or because she is a Roman Catholic.

Without Jesus Christ, none of us will make it to heaven. But with Jesus Christ, we can all be saved - including the Muslim and even the Roman Catholic. Amen I think Jude will also be going to Hell (at least during Office Hours) - because for a good many people Hell would be spending eternity in his company.



This forum is meant for debates between theists only. As moderator, at my discretion I may allow nontheists to post in here if they have something of substance to add to the discussion. This post did not meet that criteria.

Forum rules:
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists, though exceptions may be granted within the moderator's discretion that keep to the spirit of the comparative religions department.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

[Snarf]

Without Jesus Christ, none of us will make it to heaven. But with Jesus Christ, we can all be saved - including the Muslim and even the Roman Catholic. Amen

Eh, we Roman Catholics also believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

[bar Jonah]

Seer, your harsh judgement of Islam is appreciated.

However, if your OP is intended for a Muslim audience, it has a fatal flaw.

Someone mentioned that the Quran says Muslims should look to the Bible. Yes and no... and no again.

Yes, they believe the OT and NT were from God. But two problems.

First, they believe both are corrupted.

Second, they don't believe Paul is part of the Bible. Just ask them. They like Peter and James and John ("James the Righteous," they call him), and they love Jesus (Isa), of course... After all, they all taught that works of the Law are a part of how a man is justified in the eyes of God.

But Paul? To them, he is "Paul the Liar." He teaches that faith alone is enough to be justified in the eyes of God, and that works of the Law play no part in attaining salvation. And that is anathema to Islam. Ask 'em. They have a hatred for Paul. I've spoken to them on campuses, at major festivals and other places and times, and they can be quite vocal about how they love the Twelve... but hate "Paul the Liar."

Your OP quoted Romans. If it is intended for a Muslim, the flaw is quoting Paul.

[Jude3b]

Eh, we Roman Catholics also believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Dear Snarf:

Thank you for your statement of faith in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Please, may I ask you a couple of questions?

If yes, please tell me, When and how did you come to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Also, please tell me, if you died today - are you sure that you would go to heaven?

[Snarf]

Dear Snarf:

Thank you for your statement of faith in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Please, may I ask you a couple of questions?

If yes, please tell me, When and how did you come to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Also, please tell me, if you died today - are you sure that you would go to heaven?

Sorry for the delay, I accepted Christ as my Savior 20 years ago, and yes I believe that I would go to heaven.

[Maimonides]

Dear Snarf:

Thank you for your statement of faith in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Please, may I ask you a couple of questions?

If yes, please tell me, When and how did you come to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Also, please tell me, if you died today - are you sure that you would go to heaven?
I'm sensing perhaps just a little Protestant/Catholic rivalry here.

Personally, as a former Protestant I view the whole thing quite dialectically. But to be honest, I think very many Protestants (and probably many Catholics as well), haven't stopped to really think about it. The Foundation Myth of Protestantism is that "saintly" Martin Luther rescued the xian faith from the clutches of Romanism and the papacy (to paraphrase Magdalenbrother's quite enlightened statement earlier). The true story is far more complex; suffice it to say that Martin Luther's message met with the greatest success in the European North, i.e. England, northern Germany, Scandinavia, Scotland (but not Ireland, nor Poland), and (to a lesser extent), France and of course Calvin's Geneva.

So were those people just "more right" than those in the European South (Portugal, France, Italy, Spain), plus Poland and Ireland? What about North Africa (Islamic) or Southeast Asia (Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, animist)? To me, at least, God has to be bigger than any one sect or religion.

[Spiritus Naturae]

Seer, your harsh judgement of Islam is appreciated.

However, if your OP is intended for a Muslim audience, it has a fatal flaw.

Someone mentioned that the Quran says Muslims should look to the Bible. Yes and no... and no again.

Yes, they believe the OT and NT were from God. But two problems.

First, they believe both are corrupted.

Second, they don't believe Paul is part of the Bible. Just ask them. They like Peter and James and John ("James the Righteous," they call him), and they love Jesus (Isa), of course... After all, they all taught that works of the Law are a part of how a man is justified in the eyes of God.

But Paul? To them, he is "Paul the Liar." He teaches that faith alone is enough to be justified in the eyes of God, and that works of the Law play no part in attaining salvation. And that is anathema to Islam. Ask 'em. They have a hatred for Paul. I've spoken to them on campuses, at major festivals and other places and times, and they can be quite vocal about how they love the Twelve... but hate "Paul the Liar."

Your OP quoted Romans. If it is intended for a Muslim, the flaw is quoting Paul.

Thanks for that insight, RI. :wink: I can use that...I wasnt aware of their disdain for Paul.

Jonathan

[Maimonides]

No you weren't. Hang in there. Truth is absolute and the Word of God - the Bible is absolutely true!

Seer, You know as well as I that Jesus Christ alone is: "The Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes unto the Father, but by Him!" That is all inclusive.

Twilly Spree won't go to heaven because she is tolerant of Islam or because she is a Roman Catholic.

Without Jesus Christ, none of us will make it to heaven. But with Jesus Christ, we can all be saved - including the Muslim and even the Roman Catholic. Amen
With Jesus Christ... now if only we could all agree on what that means!
Personally I find the inter-factionalism of the Christian church alternately fascinating, amusing, and aggravating, all the more when it flares up over mundane issues, as it has many times in the history of the church.

What makes the (non-denominational evangelical Protestant I assume) way of looking at things better than the Catholic (as long as we're just talking about Christianity)?

[bar Jonah]

Thanks for that insight, RI. :wink: I can use that...I wasnt aware of their disdain for Paul.

Jonathan
Well, it should come as no surprise, bro. You've begun to look at the dispensational differences between Paul on the one hand, and the Twelve on the other hand. Look at James' epistle. Why wouldn't a Muslim love that? Justified by works of the Law, that faith alone isn't enough? Granted, that is not specifically Islamic by any stretch. Indeed, James would have obviously rejected Islam on its face, in reality. But when they read that epistle, it's easy for them to incorporate it into their theology, fit it to their preconceived notions.

But Paul? Faith alone? The Law is the ministry of death? Not justified by works?

But you know what the kicker is? Galatians 1:6-9, in Paul's very first epistle. Now think about it... Mohammed is visited by the archangel Gabriel and given the Koran verbally over the course of many visits.

Now, go read Galatians 1:6-9. Blammo.

"Paul the Liar."

[Maimonides]

Oh my goodness Seer, really. I personally don't think you're displaying very Christiam like behavior. Have some respect!

Also not all Christian denomnations believe the same thing on salvation. The Catholic Chruch holds that people that 1) Are never given the chance to know Jesus or 2) Believe in divine providence and are inherently Good will be saved. And I personally deep down, believe that God has a plan for those of Islam too. He would not forsake them, and show no mercy to someone that has been good and followed his will all their life without even knowing him.
I agree. Doctrines or no doctrines, I cannot allow myself to believe less of God.