Rome killed the early Protestants

[Jude3b]

Rome killed the early Protestants; during the reign of Queen Mary 288 reformers were burned, why? Because these men held to the truth, and did not compromise with Rome but today most Christians have forgotten the roots and are joining hands with Rome and say, let us pray, love and embrace each other, let us pray for the Pope, and Roman Catholicism, yes says many ignorant Christians, and they join with Roman Catholics together and say., "we all believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the virgin birth, Christ's bodily resurrection and therefore Romanism is not a cult, she has errors, we need to pray for the Pope and instead of fighting with each other let us love them, embrace them."
All that despite the fact that most Bible believing Christians know that Rome absolutely denies the Bible doctrine of justification by faith alone, pronouncing it is an anathema (Divine curse) upon those who hold to this principle. Which by the way, it is the only way to be saved and the only way to get to heaven!
I beleive there is no difference between the modern Roman Catholic church and the church of Luther's day. BUT LUTHER STOOD UP FOR THE TRUTH AND HE CONTINUED ON THE TRUTH, Luther was not looking for popularity as he was ex-communicated from the Roman Catholic church as a heretic, BUT HE WAS GOD'S HERO FOR STANDING FOR THE TRUTH.
Where are the Saints of God who will stand for the truth today???
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[spl_cadet]

Rome killed the early Protestants; during the reign of Queen Mary 288 reformers were burned, why?

For heresy. Same reason that when the Protestants ruled England they killed Catholics. Queen Mary simply returned the favor.


All that despite the fact that most Bible believing Christians know that Rome absolutely denies the Bible doctrine of justification by faith alone, pronouncing it is an anathema (Divine curse) upon those who hold to this principle. Which by the way, it is the only way to be saved and the only way to get to heaven!

Faith alone, understood as faith by itself, is indeed condemned. However, no Protestant actually holds to that position to my knowledge.


I beleive there is no difference between the modern Roman Catholic church and the church of Luther's day. BUT LUTHER STOOD UP FOR THE TRUTH AND HE CONTINUED ON THE TRUTH, Luther was not looking for popularity as he was ex-communicated from the Roman Catholic church as a heretic, BUT HE WAS GOD'S HERO FOR STANDING FOR THE TRUTH.

Luther was simply a useful tool for greedy German princes.

Tell me now, why would "God's hero" advocate the massacre of a hundred thousand peasants, who rebelled against unjust nobles and whom he initially supported? :ahem:


Where are the Saints of God who will stand for the truth today???

Across the Tiber :tongue:

[Agent Yoshi]

Luther was no different than the RCC in killing the people he didn't like. To quote:

"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?"

"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

" Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."

"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home."

"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess."

" Second, that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted. "

"Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country."

"But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. For our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all, and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God. "

[Wesley's son]

John Foxe's Book of Martyrs is fairly explict in detailing the charges brought against the first Protestants. Concerning Luther, even if he had pursued something else with his life, the Reformation would have come about anyway. He was only one of many in that time who held the conviction that God's truth was quite different than that expressed by Rome.

[Jude3b]

Luther was not teaching heresy, he was revealing the Roman heresy of salvation by works. Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Twilly Spree]

Jude you seem to have a lot of anger towards Catholics? Why is that? I'm thrilled that there is unity among all denomnations of Christianity. At the base level we ALL believe the same things. We're just all taking a different path to Christ. Can't you see that? Who are you to pass judgement on me anyway?

Back to your statements about Luther. Yes, at the time the Catholic chruch held Luther as a heretic. But I will remind you that at the time the Roman Catholic Chruch was using practices that have long since gone. The Church was going through what I'll call a "rough stage." The entire Catholic Church has apologized since for their actions at this time. Things were going on that were not at all holy. But does that somehow make all Catholicism a big fat hoax? No, we merely had to find our way. I firmly believe that there is a reason to why the Chruch didn't fall apart. God wanted the Chruch to continue on. So people like me could find Jesus through their teachings.

[spl_cadet]

Well, Luther is still a heretic :tongue:

I've said it a hundred times before Jude, we don't believe in works-based salvation. (www.catholic-cadet.com/apol/works.html)

[Jude3b]

Dear Roman Catholics that are reading this post: The problem with Romanism is that it is a false religion and teaches another gospel, and has another Jesus. How can a Christian who has actually read the Bible and determines to live by it and obey it, compromise with false religion? No can do!

Some examples: 1) Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic church: (Catechism Pg. 215, #816).
2) Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is through good works (Catechism Pg. 222, #837).
3) Roman Catholicism has itself as the Final Authority: (Catechism Pg. 29, #95).
4) Roman Catholicism, like every other "Cult" teaches that it is the one true church: (Catechism Pg. 214: #811).

Let me know if you'd like me to greatly expand this list of proofs that Romanism is a Cult, a false religion, has another Gospel and anotherr Jesus, and I'll gladly list many, many more.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Agent Yoshi]

How is #1 different than salvation is only avaliable through Jesus?

[Twilly Spree]

A different Jesus!?! Seriously Jude, that's so wrong.

[spl_cadet]

Dear Roman Catholics that are reading this post: The problem with Romanism is that it is a false religion and teaches another gospel, and has another Jesus. How can a Christian who has actually read the Bible and determines to live by it and obey it, compromise with false religion? No can do!

Some examples: 1) Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic church: (Catechism Pg. 215, #816).
2) Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is through good works (Catechism Pg. 222, #837).
3) Roman Catholicism has itself as the Final Authority: (Catechism Pg. 29, #95).
4) Roman Catholicism, like every other "Cult" teaches that it is the one true church: (Catechism Pg. 214: #811).

Let me know if you'd like me to greatly expand this list of proofs that Romanism is a Cult, a false religion, has another Gospel and anotherr Jesus, and I'll gladly list many, many more.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

Look, why don't you click on the link my last post?

[rocketman]

You know Jude, just once I'd like to see you post something substantial detailing exactly how and where "Romanism" went wrong, why the Reformers were right, why your interpretation of the Bible is correct, and exactly what it is you think Catholics believe anyways. Because so far, all you've posted appear to be cookie-cutter assertions that the Church is wrong with one verse to back you up and then saying we must "choose" between "God and Romanism". You have also managed to mangle almost every piece of Catholic theology. Even when Cadet and I and others have tried to send you links and posts and more detailed info about what the theology and beliefs actually are, you continue to post your ill-informed assertions. The spat above about "salvation through works" is a prime example. For some reason you think that you actually know more about our Church than we do. For someone who claims to have been a part of the Catholic Church for 27 years, you have a seriously warped version of what Catholics practice and believe.

[NoeticPenguin]

Jude,
At the beginning of Protestantism there was murder and heresy on both sides. Before you condemn the RCC for the murder of Prostestants look a few years ahead in history. During the beginnings Anabaptism, the Swiss Brethren et.all were murdered by Protestants for rejecting pedobaptism and refusing to murder. (well, there are some notable exceptions to that, but even contemporary anabaptists --mennonites etc-- think that the fiasco at Muenster was... a fiasco) Put simply the protestants have a far greater pension for killing their theological dissidents (or deriding them in public forums) throughout the ages. From the previously posted call-for-murder of Jews, to the wholesale murder of those who rejected the sword and the ideas of pedobaptism in the 14th century. Some even trace the roots of the holocaust ideology to the civil religion of protestant germany.

Luther was a reformer, no one doubts that. But so were Contrad Grabel, and Erasmus. None of them or there followers should have died, orthodox or not.

The single greatest travesty of human depravity occurs when the people of God use their freedom to destroy and degrade others in the Kingdom of God.

-Pkj

[Twilly Spree]

Good post Penguin!



(Am I just some like theology cheerleader or what?)

[Jude3b]

Dear NoeticPenguin:

Romanism is the mother of harlots. I never said I support Protestantism anymore than Romanism. The Word of God is opposed to all "isms" and you never find them supported in Scripture. Now people on Theoly Web, especially Roman Catholics - are fully in love with their idol of Romanism. But there is no support for this "ism" in Scripture.

The Roman Catholic Religion has long been known for its persecution of true New Testament Christians. Beginning in about 600 A.D., persecution hounded these Christ-honoring, Bible-loving people. Pope Gregory I went so far as to systematically destroy and alter historical records pertaining to these Christians. Having been raised a Roman Catholic and educated in Roman Catholic schools, I can tell you that Rome often gives a different view of history, from what really happened. Some of You probably aren't aware of that, being the loyal Roman Catholics that you are.

I AM NOT A ROMAN CATHOLIC AND I AM NOT A PROTESTANT! I am not a Protestant or Roman Catholic because I am a member of the Church of God by virtue of salvation (Acts 2:47) and the church of God, the Body of Christ is not a Roman Catholic church, neither is it a Protestant church. All Protestant churches can trace their origin to the Roman Catholic church. But the church of God, the body of Christ was founded and established by Jesus Christ Himself (Matthew 16:18) several hundred years before the Roman Catholic religion ever came into existence. Read about it in the New Testament. Notice the letters written "unto the church of God" in many places.

The Roman Catholic church and all Protestant denominations are man-made organizations, which elect their heads, make rules, laws, etc. The church of God is built upon the Rock Christ Jesus. He is the chief corner stone and the Rock of the church (I Corinthians 10:4 and Eph. 2:19-22).

The members of the church of God, have always been called saints, Christians, Children of God, etc. but never Roman Catholics or Protestants.
The names Roman Catholicism and Protestant names all belong to Babylon.

Born-again people are not Protestants or Roman Catholics unless they join a Protestant sect or the Roman Catholic sect. God never made anyone a Protestant or a Roman Catholic, Man does that. God makes saints out of sinners and places them in His body, the church of God. Amen.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[rocketman]

The Roman Catholic Religion has long been known for its persecution of true New Testament Christians. Beginning in about 600 A.D., persecution hounded these Christ-honoring, Bible-loving people. Pope Gregory I went so far as to systematically destroy and alter historical records pertaining to these Christians. Having been raised a Roman Catholic and educated in Roman Catholic schools, I can tell you that Rome often gives a different view of history, from what really happened. Some of You probably aren't aware of that, being the loyal Roman Catholics that you are.

Since you seem to know so much about church history, please NAME PEOPLE WHO THE CHURCH PERSECUTED DURING THIS TIME. Otherwise, you are simply blowing fire up everyone's rears with no good reason or support.

[NoeticPenguin]

Dear NoeticPenguin:

Romanism is the mother of harlots. I never said I support Protestantism anymore than Romanism. The Word of God is opposed to all "isms" and you never find them supported in Scripture. Now people on Theoly Web, especially Roman Catholics - are fully in love with their idol of Romanism. But there is no support for this "ism" in Scripture.

By your logic (of Rome being the mother of harlots) then there were no Christians (only harlots), between the rise of the centralized ekklesial structure and the protestant revolution. This is, in the views of at least one Biblical scholar (Campbell), in direct defiance of what scripture says regarding the gates of hell never prevailing against the kingdom of God. (http://www.bible.acu.edu/stone-campbell/Etexts/lun16.html) While the debate there is on baptism the principle is the same. No amount of sectarian thought can be justified when it invalidates the faith of centuries of Christians for disagreeing with your view.

The simple fact of the matter is that you do not have a corner on the truth, and because you do not have a corner on truth, you cannot make sectarian statements like "Rome is the mother of harlots".


The Roman Catholic Religion has long been known for its persecution of true New Testament Christians. Beginning in about 600 A.D., persecution hounded these Christ-honoring, Bible-loving people. Pope Gregory I went so far as to systematically destroy and alter historical records pertaining to these Christians. Having been raised a Roman Catholic and educated in Roman Catholic schools, I can tell you that Rome often gives a different view of history, from what really happened. Some of You probably aren't aware of that, being the loyal Roman Catholics that you are.


The RCC may have a history of radical perseucution of groups with percieved unortodox beliefs. Protestants have the same problems. Simply put there is no distinction between the persecution of protestants by the RCC during the middle ages, and your current persecution of Roman Catholics. No Christian is free of the sin of Sectarian thought. It has never helped. We always want to claim that we have a corner on the truth, and that those who do not believe our viewpoints are heretical, and that they are anathema to the Kingdom. Such is simply not the case. I can give countless examples from my own life of such stupid sectarian beliefs that one by one have to be systematically destroyed.


I AM NOT A ROMAN CATHOLIC AND I AM NOT A PROTESTANT! I am not a Protestant or Roman Catholic because I am a member of the Church of God by virtue of salvation (Acts 2:47) and the church of God, the Body of Christ is not a Roman Catholic church, neither is it a Protestant church. All Protestant churches can trace their origin to the Roman Catholic church. But the church of God, the body of Christ was founded and established by Jesus Christ Himself (Matthew 16:18) several hundred years before the Roman Catholic religion ever came into existence. Read about it in the New Testament. Notice the letters written "unto the church of God" in many places.

Yes, thats fine, but the issue at hand is not your particular denominational beliefs, nor your personal understandind of scripture, but the destructive sectarian, hateful beliefs that you are holding tight to your soul. The essence of Christianity is not judgementalism! but in the joy of forgiveness in and from Christ, shared by all in the Kingdom.


The Roman Catholic church and all Protestant denominations are man-made organizations, which elect their heads, make rules, laws, etc. The church of God is built upon the Rock Christ Jesus. He is the chief corner stone and the Rock of the church (I Corinthians 10:4 and Eph. 2:19-22).

The members of the church of God, have always been called saints, Christians, Children of God, etc. but never Roman Catholics or Protestants.
The names Roman Catholicism and Protestant names all belong to Babylon.

Born-again people are not Protestants or Roman Catholics unless they join a Protestant sect or the Roman Catholic sect. God never made anyone a Protestant or a Roman Catholic, Man does that. God makes saints out of sinners and places them in His body, the church of God. Amen.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

I agree completely that God makes saints out of sinners! I also think you are right, that God doesn't make Protestants or Catholics. Those who make Protestants and Catholics are the very people, who like you, seek to define themselves as the cornerstone of truth, who supplant God by claiming to have the ability to devide the bone and marrow of denominational barriers all through the sinful practice of judgementalism(of which we are all guilty of).

-Pkj

[Rev John Hansen]

Sectarianism is sin and violates the desires of the Lord Jesus Christ. Read John chapter 17. When people are born-again and their mind becomes renewed on the Word of God, it becomes clear that denominationalism is terrible and the main reason that Christendom is so ineffective in the world today. Saints of God should shout, "Come out of her, my people!" Amen.
Luv you all.........

[rocketman]

You know John, from 33 AD to 1517, there really was just one Church, with no sects or denominations...hmm...wonder why it changed afterwards?

[tizzidale]

Rocketman: uhm don't forget about the Eastern church.

back to Twebbers' regular attack against Catholicism

[Jude3b]

END OF 1260-YEAR PAPAL REIGN
The year 270 A.D. is a consistent dividing-date between the morning-light of the Bible church of God and the darkness of the papal age; for at this period the "falling away," or apostasy of the church, on the one hand and the rising power of the hierarchy on the other hand were about equal. Measuring forward the allotted period of 1260 years brings us to the exact date of the first Protestant creed (the Augsburg Confession) in A.D. 1530. This date brings an end to Rome's universal spiritual supremacy and the rise of Protestantism.
The Reformation of the Sixteenth Century broke the power of Rome's spiritual supremacy.
This history lesson agrees with Rev. 12:14, when the woman, or true church, is secluded in the wilderness for a "time, and times, and half a time." A "time" signifies one year (Dan. 4:25); "times" (plural, without a designating number) would signify two years; and "half a time," one-half year: or three and one-half years --forty-two months; or, counting thirty days to the month, 1260 days. In Revelation 11 the true church appears symbolized as Jerusalem, with its temple and altar, but the same was to be trodden down by a profane multitude for "forty and two months" (verse 2); while God's true witnesses were to "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth" (verse 3). ALL are the same - 1260 days.
The 1260 days are prophetic time, each day signifying one year. Now, this time period of 1260 years in Revelation covers two distinct lines of prophetic time - the time of the seclusion of the woman, or true church, in the wilderness, also the reign of the beast-power, or church apostate (Roman Catholicism), which made war against the saints.
During this "dark age" - the living church of God retired gradually within the lonely sanctuary of a few solitary hearts, and an external church (Roman Catholicism) was substituted in its place, and all its forms were declared to be of divine appointment. Salvation no longer flowing from the Word, which was henceforth put out of sight, the priests affirmed that it was conveyed by means of the forms they had themselves invented.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[NoeticPenguin]

END OF 1260-YEAR PAPAL REIGN
The year 270 A.D. is a consistent dividing-date between the morning-light of the Bible church of God and the darkness of the papal age; for at this period the "falling away," or apostasy of the church, on the one hand and the rising power of the hierarchy on the other hand were about equal.

Ok, but what Apostasy did the church commit? The use of hierarchy? The rise of the Holy see? The appropriation of the Vatican estates? The creation of an Army ? What exactly is the Apostasy you claim? Furthermore Apostasy is almost exclusively used to denote the denoucement of God, typically by denouncing the existance of God and "trampling a fumeia". Do you claim that the RCC church denies the existance of God?


Measuring forward the allotted period of 1260 years brings us to the exact date of the first Protestant creed (the Augsburg Confession) in A.D. 1530. This date brings an end to Rome's universal spiritual supremacy and the rise of Protestantism.
The Reformation of the Sixteenth Century broke the power of Rome's spiritual supremacy.
This history lesson agrees with Rev. 12:14, when the woman, or true church, is secluded in the wilderness for a "time, and times, and half a time." A "time" signifies one year (Dan. 4:25); "times" (plural, without a designating number) would signify two years; and "half a time," one-half year: or three and one-half years --forty-two months; or, counting thirty days to the month, 1260 days. In Revelation 11 the true church appears symbolized as Jerusalem, with its temple and altar, but the same was to be trodden down by a profane multitude for "forty and two months" (verse 2); while God's true witnesses were to "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth" (verse 3). ALL are the same - 1260 days.
The 1260 days are prophetic time, each day signifying one year. Now, this time period of 1260 years in Revelation covers two distinct lines of prophetic time - the time of the seclusion of the woman, or true church, in the wilderness, also the reign of the beast-power, or church apostate (Roman Catholicism), which made war against the saints.
During this "dark age" - the living church of God retired gradually within the lonely sanctuary of a few solitary hearts, and an external church (Roman Catholicism) was substituted in its place, and all its forms were declared to be of divine appointment. Salvation no longer flowing from the Word, which was henceforth put out of sight, the priests affirmed that it was conveyed by means of the forms they had themselves invented.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

That my friend is pure rubbish. During your supposed "Dark age of the Church" many respected theologians lived and their work influanced the protestants you seem to respect!

Furthermore, I'm beginning to suspect you are printing quotes from some other source. Care to identify your source?

[Rev John Hansen]

APOSTASY: Monkish superstition, The Papacy, Man rule, Romanism- a violent persecuting power, Romanism- identified with heathenism
Source- in part, the book History of Romanism and Marsh's Church History.
Mainly, the Holy Bible.
Love you all.......

[NoeticPenguin]

For one whose sig professes love for all, it sure seems like your willing to persecute Roman Catholics.

[Twilly Spree]

For one whose sig professes love for all, it sure seems like your willing to persecute Roman Catholics.

I was actually just thinking that earlier. Beat me to the punch.

[Agent Yoshi]

The Roman Catholic church and all Protestant denominations are man-made organizations, which elect their heads, make rules, laws, etc. The church of God is built upon the Rock Christ Jesus. He is the chief corner stone and the Rock of the church (I Corinthians 10:4 and Eph. 2:19-22).

So you oppose having leaders in your churches? Or do you oppose churches/synagogues/congregations altogether?

[Agent Yoshi]

The members of the church of God, have always been called saints, Christians, Children of God, etc. but never Roman Catholics or Protestants.
The names Roman Catholicism and Protestant names all belong to Babylon.

So someone who opposes the Catholic Church (thus a protestant if he is a christian, no matter his belief) is evil?

[Agent Yoshi]

Sectarianism is sin and violates the desires of the Lord Jesus Christ. Read John chapter 17. When people are born-again and their mind becomes renewed on the Word of God, it becomes clear that denominationalism is terrible and the main reason that Christendom is so ineffective in the world today. Saints of God should shout, "Come out of her, my people!" Amen.
Luv you all.........

So why use the title "Rev." - isn't that a title that comes from sectarian leadership positions?

[Jude3b]

Have you hearf of foxe's book of Martyr's. There is a whole list of people murdered by Romanism.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Pilgrim]

Jude, to protect you from furthering Satan's work I must urge you to stop participating in this ecumincal dialogue! I know you hate ecuminism and this board is absolutely ecuminical so you better be careful that you don't participate!

[rocketman]

Have you hearf of foxe's book of Martyr's. There is a whole list of people murdered by Romanism.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

I can find plenty who were murdered for the cause of Protestantism too, Jude.

[Jude3b]

BEWARE! ecuMENism AT WORK!!

Knock your lights out! What is this "Ecumenism" your so happy about? In the Roman Catholic world it is used for a parallel movement aiming at the eventual inclusion of all other churches and religions in the Church of Rome. So your "Ecumenical" and proud of it! Falls right in line, since Satan's Plan for this generation surely includes your "Ecumenical efforts". Ecumenical efforts - get the Religions together and promote Another Gospel.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

Love you all...

Jude 3b

[Pilgrim]

BEWARE! ecuMENism AT WORK!!

Knock your lights out! What is this "Ecumenism" your so happy about? In the Roman Catholic world it is used for a parallel movement aiming at the eventual inclusion of all other churches and religions in the Church of Rome. So your "Ecumenical" and proud of it! Falls right in line, since Satan's Plan for this generation surely includes your "Ecumenical efforts". Ecumenical efforts - get the Religions together and promote Another Gospel.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

Love you all...

Jude 3b
Ok, this will be the 4th time in my history of posting here and at that other location that I use this word. Your reasoing is IDIOTIC. As if there was some real linguistic link between the word ecumenism and "men." Surely God has granted you with a greater ability to reason than this bumper sticker theology you espouse demonstrates?

And I am also assuming that you have some secret document which will reveal this dark and evil plan of the RCC to us? Please, Christ came as a unifier. Christ came to proactively bring the good news. All you seem to be doing is reactively tearing down others in a spirit of condesension and it does a dis-service to the cause of Christ.

[Twilly Spree]

Nicely said Pilgrim.

Ha, that sort of sounded like something out of an old John Wayne film.

[Agent Yoshi]

You know John, from 33 AD to 1517, there really was just one Church, with no sects or denominations...hmm...wonder why it changed afterwards?

That's hardly correct. You still had your gnostics, Ebionites, Nazarenes, and I'm told there was a Church in Asia that didn't even know about the RCC during the middle ages.

[rocketman]

Yes, sorry yoshiah. I realize now that when I wrote that drastic oversimplification, I had just gotten out of a 3 hour long class on the Reformation...tends to give ya "tunnel vision". My apologies.

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholicism did not start in 33 A.D. The church of God started in that year. Romanism did not come along for almost 300 years until the so-called conversion of emperor Constantine (A.D. 310). Christianity was declared the state religion, and multitudes of pagans were admitted to the church by baptism alone, without conversion. They brought with them their pagan rites, ceremonies and practices which they gradually introduced into the church with Christian names, all of which corrupted the primitive faith of the church of God and the formal organized church became Romanized and paganized. Romanism has added popery and many other pagan doctrines and practices, so many that it is no longer a Christian church, instead it is a Roman catholic church.
The true church of God is invisible, made up of truly converted people who are to be found in many of the visible denominations and whose names are written in heaven.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Agent Yoshi]

np

[Jude3b]

This thread needs to get back on track!
WHY DID ROME KILL THE EARLY PROTESTANTS?
Rome did not like teachings such as: "The law says, 'do this,' and it is never done. Grace says, 'believe in this,' and everything is already done. For through faith Christ is in us, indeed, one with us. Christ is just and has fulfilled all the commands of God, wherefore we also fulfil everything through him since he was made ours through faith. (Martin Luther)

[Agent Yoshi]

take a chill pill

Face up to it - this thread isn't going to turn into a Catholic Bashing thread. We aren't going to let you. If you wanna debate doctrine, fine. But leave the Lashon Hara and Ranting out of it.

[Jude3b]

Think of the rivers of blood in the Netherlands, where the Duke of Alva boasted that in the short space of six weeks he had put eighteen thousand to death!


Witness the dragoonading methods and other inhuman persecutions to "wear out the saints of the Most High," that followed the revocation of the Edict of Nantes (1685) by Louis XIV., king of France, during whose reign three hundred thousand were brutally butchered -- while Pope Innocent XI. extolled the king by special letter as follows: "The Catholic church shall most assuredly record in her sacred annals a work of such devotion toward her, and CELEBRATE YOUR NAME WITH NEVER-DYING PRAISES.... for this most excellent undertaking" ! !

My heart sickens with horror in the contemplation of such events.

Jude 3b

[Agent Yoshi]

Jude,

My heart sickens with horrors when I am told of what happened to my ancestors in Holland during the Holocaust. And guess what? There were Catholics & Protestants involved with that. If I remember correctly, they massacred 72% of Dutch Jewry. In fact, they used the teachings of Martin Luther, the most bloody, evil, anti-semite within the past 1000 years to be upon this earth, to justify their teachings. Should I go ranting on against what Christianity has done and devote my whole life to whining? No.

While I extremely disagree with Christian theology, I don't carry a hate against Christians in general. You need to learn that there are "good" Catholics, and "bad" Catholics. Just like there "good" Christians, and "bad" Christians. Get a life.

[Benedict]

For the love of truth I cannot allow someone to speak of Foxe's Book of Martyrs as though it were non-fiction. The book was thoroughly discredited more than 100 years ago. It should include the disclaimer "Any resemblance to actual names, places, or events in history are purely coincidental."

I know this is a bit more sarcastic than usual for me, but this has come up a few times in the past month.

[Jude3b]

And who has discredited Foxe's book of Martyrs? How do you discredit true history?

[Benedict]

If only the "history" presented by John Foxe were true.

Most recently, to my knowledge, Patrick Collinson and Thomas S. Freeman of the University of Sheffield have written works refuting Foxe.

The first refutation was Nicholas Harpesfield's Dialogi Sex, written shortly after Foxe's first publication of Acts and Monuments. My favorite is A Critical and Historical Review of Fox's Book of Martyrs : shewing the inaccuracies, falsehoods, and misrepresentations in that work of deception. by William Eusebius Andrews.


In his book, John Fox related that a Catholic by the name of Grimwood of Hitcham had been a great enemy of the protestant revolutionaries, and was punished "by a judgment of God," and "his bowels fell out of his body." Whereas, the protestant Anthony Wood relates that, during the reign of Elizabeth I, a certain Protestant minister related in a sermon the account of Grimwood’s death, using Fox as his authority. But, unfortunately for the parson, not only was Grimwood alive at the time when the sermon was preached, but happened to be present in the church to hear the sermon, and brought an action of defamation against the preacher. (Athenae Oxonienses, volume ii, p. 789)

[Twilly Spree]

There are lots of ways to discredit history, I dunno like showing it's biased and made up.

[Jude3b]

So, you deny that Rome killed early Protestants?

[Twilly Spree]

Nope, Catholics did a lot of bad things back in the day. I think you need to read Yoshaih's post again and try to learn something from her.

Besides how long has it been since the church did that? That's on heck of a grudge Jude.

[truthman]

some blacks in America want reparations from various people/organizations for the involuntary slavery of their ancestors

<jest>maybe some Protestants should seek reparations from the Pope for what his predecessors did to Protestants</jest>

truthman

[Jude3b]

Sounds like an idea. But, do you think Rome will have any money left after all the child abuse and Pedophile cases filed against them?

[bar Jonah]

How is #1 different than salvation is only avaliable through Jesus?
Uh, pretty obvious... Because one is God, and the other is a man-made political (and sometimes military) institution.


Jude, to protect you from furthering Satan's work I must urge you to stop participating in this ecumincal dialogue! I know you hate ecuminism and this board is absolutely ecuminical so you better be careful that you don't participate!
This board also welcomes Muslims, witches and atheists.

Are we also prohibited from making strong arguments against those belief systems, as well? :rihrm:


Jude,

My heart sickens with horrors when I am told of what happened to my ancestors in Holland during the Holocaust. And guess what? There were Catholics & Protestants involved with that. If I remember correctly, they massacred 72% of Dutch Jewry. In fact, they used the teachings of Martin Luther, the most bloody, evil, anti-semite within the past 1000 years to be upon this earth, to justify their teachings. Should I go ranting on against what Christianity has done and devote my whole life to whining? No.

While I extremely disagree with Christian theology, I don't carry a hate against Christians in general. You need to learn that there are "good" Catholics, and "bad" Catholics. Just like there "good" Christians, and "bad" Christians. Get a life.
Thank you, Yosh. Exactly Jude's point. Protestantism born out of the Catholic Church, guilty of the same oppressions, with just as much blood on their hands.

And uh, no, everyone outside the RCC isn't Protestant. :lmbo:

He's not Protestant. I'm not Protestant. Everyone in the ministry I work in isn't Protestant. At least a significant percentage of TW is neither RCC nor Protestant.

[brother vinny]

And uh, no, everyone outside the RCC isn't Protestant. :lmbo:


That really depends on how you define the term, doesn't it? The Catholic Church itself (IIRC) recognizes four distinct groups (anabaptist's flights of fancy notwithstanding):

1) The Church (a/k/a Roman Catholicism)
2) Eastern Orthodoxy
3) Protestantism (including all flavors of Baptists), and
4) Psuedo-Christian Cults (which, being "psuedo-Christian," really don't count.)


He's not Protestant. I'm not Protestant. Everyone in the ministry I work in isn't Protestant. At least a significant percentage of TW is neither RCC nor Protestant.

Well, thanks for clearing that up. :lmbo: I guess, since I know you're not EOC, you'd fall under option #4, correct?

[bar Jonah]

That really depends on how you define the term, doesn't it? The Catholic Church itself (IIRC) recognizes four distinct groups (anabaptist's flights of fancy notwithstanding):

1) The Church (a/k/a Roman Catholicism)
2) Eastern Orthodoxy
3) Protestantism (including all flavors of Baptists), and
4) Psuedo-Christian Cults (which, being "psuedo-Christian," really don't count.)



Well, thanks for clearing that up. :lmbo: I guess, since I know you're not EOC, you'd fall under option #4, correct?
So, now you're calling me out as a "pseudo-Christian" in front of everyone here?

Spl has already accused me of not being saved, openly... Why shouldn't others join on the bandwagon?

[brother vinny]

So, now you're calling me out as a "pseudo-Christian" in front of everyone here?


I didn't "call" you anything. I merely set out the three types of Christians that the Catholic Church recognizes, along with a fourth type that call themselves "Christian" but distort the tenets of the faith beyond recognition (i.e., Mormons, J.W.'s, etc.). Since by your own words you don't fit into the first three, it must be assumed you belong in the fourth.

Spl has already accused me of not being saved, openly... Why shouldn't others join on the bandwagon?

Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. If you are, well, I sure hope to see the fruit of it in this lifetime. You seem to treat your friends well enough, but even evil people do that.

[truthman]

if you go to google.com and type "define: protestant" (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+protestant&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 ), you'll get an overwhelming agreement from most everyone out there that a protestant is:

Someone who can trace their doctrines back to Luther or Calvin, someone who sought or seeks to reform the Catholic church, any member of the Reform church.

I don't have a problem being a part of this group. I'm surprised to see that there is such aversion to the term.

truthman

[brother vinny]

if you go to google.com and type "define: protestant" (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+protestant&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 ), you'll get an overwhelming agreement from most everyone out there that a protestant is:

Someone who can trace their doctrines back to Luther or Calvin, someone who sought or seeks to reform the Catholic church, any member of the Reform church.

I don't have a problem being a part of this group. I'm surprised to see that there is such aversion to the term.

truthman

truthman,

There is a once-popular belief that when Christianity became the official Church of the Roman Empire, a handful of underground Christians kept the "true faith" alive* while Rome perverted the Christian doctrines. (Which is why such people would want to be kept separate from "Protestants.") This notion falls flat on its face when one realizes that most (if not all) of what makes the RCC and the EOC distinctive from Protestantism was either already firmly in place or in nascent form when Constantine came to power.

*Of course, if such an institution were ever to be uncovered, I'm sure it would be a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist, Open Theistic Church. :ahem:

[truthman]

my church, midActs dispy? yes.

open theistic? no.

truthman

[brother vinny]

my church, midActs dispy? yes.

open theistic? no.

truthman

Heretic! Youve wandered from the One, True Church®, Inc.!

j/k

[Jude3b]

"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 3:4)

[Jude3b]

"I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement." (Rev. 17:6)

[bar Jonah]

"I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement." (Rev. 17:6)
I'm suddenly missing your point, Brer Jude...

[Pilgrim]

I'm suddenly missing your point, Brer Jude...
his point is easy, he waits until the thread has been dormant for a while and then comes back in completly ignoring the conversation that has already transpired hoping to not have to actually address the things raised to him.

[Jude3b]

Rome has blood on her hands (Rev. 17:6)

[Agent Yoshi]

Jude3b,

You've been wonderfully good at Ignoring everything I've said.

Guess what, Rome isn't the only ones who have blood on their hands

Lutherans do (especially Luther himself). Protestants do. Mormons do. Muslims do. Practically every major sect has blood on it's hands.

Does that mean we judge all the members of a sect by some of it's adherants, or a whole nation by some of it's people? I sure hope not, because I'd HATE to be associated with the ADL. (Go JFPO!)

[Agent Yoshi]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church also recognize each other's preists and sacraments

[Jude3b]

History reveals that under Pagan and Papal Rome millions were put to death.

It appears that from 1530 and 1580 not less than a million French Protestants lost their lives through the mad zeal and savage cruelty of blind infatuated Papists.

What about the deeds of Louis XIV, king of France? During his reign "three hundred thousand were brutally butchered - while Pope Innocent XI extolled the king by special letter as follows; "The Catholic church shall most assuredly record in here sacred annals a work of such devotion toward her, and Celebrate your name with never-dying praises... for this most excellent undertaking."

[bar Jonah]

So innocent, indeed.

[spl_cadet]

History reveals that under Pagan and Papal Rome millions were put to death.

It appears that from 1530 and 1580 not less than a million French Protestants lost their lives through the mad zeal and savage cruelty of blind infatuated Papists.

What about the deeds of Louis XIV, king of France? During his reign "three hundred thousand were brutally butchered - while Pope Innocent XI extolled the king by special letter as follows; "The Catholic church shall most assuredly record in here sacred annals a work of such devotion toward her, and Celebrate your name with never-dying praises... for this most excellent undertaking."

Source?

[Jude3b]

Wickersham - History of the Church

Here is some more he tells us about the sufferings of the Protestant Huguenots in France by Romanists:

"But the crowning scenes were on St. Bartholomew's day, August 24, 1572. The extreme unparalleled wickedness of this day was affected by a deep-laid scheme. Catherine de' Medici, queen-motherr of King Charles IX, after many fruitless attempts to extirpate heresy by force of arms, determined now by deception to win the Huguenots to her confidence so as to disarm them of any suspicion, in order to arrange to strike the blow that would wipe the Huguenots out of France. In order to make things appear more flattering, a marriage was agreed upon between the king's sister and Henry of Navarre. The marriage was accordingly solemnized at Paris, August 18, and a great number of Protestants were present. During the afternoon of the 23rd, the kind rode through the streets of Paris accompanied by the Chevalier d'Angouleme; and the queen-mother, to disarm suspicion, held her court as usual. Neither gave any outward indication of the dreadful crime they had in contemplation. On the morning of the 24th of August, 1572, the awful work of death began. Sunday morning being St. Bartholomew's day, as the bells were ringing for morning prayers, a great number of soldiers appeared suddenly in the streets, and began to murder the Huguenots. The massacre continued three days, during which seven hundred houses were pillaged, and more than five thousand people perished. One man boasted to the king that he had killed one hundred fifty in one night. From Paris the bloody orders were sent to the surrounding Provinces, where many thousand more were added to the inhuman account. The entire number of the victims of this dreadful persecution has been variously estimated from 30,000 to 100,000. This sad affair, so disgraceful to the annals of France, must be laid chiefly to the charge of Rome; for the Vatican respounded with rejoicing, and the courts of Spain publicly recognized the deed. It appears from authentic records, that between the years 1530 and 1580 not less than a million French Protestants lost their lives through the mad zeal and savage cruelty of blind infatuated Papists."

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:" (Rev. 13:7a)

[Agent Yoshi]

Hey, is it just me, or is Jude3b ignoring everything I say?

[Jude3b]

Hey, is it just me, or is Jude3b ignoring everything I say?

What have you said to me that has anything to do with this thread?

[spl_cadet]

Reputable source regarding St. Bartholemew's Day please. Including the fact that the Vatican received false reports at first and the beginning of the massacre was not ordered (as I recall) by the king, but contrary to his orders.

[bar Jonah]

Reputable source regarding St. Bartholemew's Day please. Including the fact that the Vatican received false reports at first and the beginning of the massacre was not ordered (as I recall) by the king, but contrary to his orders.
Uh oh! The Vatican received bad intelligence, and as a result, a million people were murdered!

:doh:

*listens as Weezer belts out "Say it ain't sooooo!" on my boom box*

[spl_cadet]

Uh oh! The Vatican received bad intelligence, and as a result, a million people were murdered!

No, the Vatican sent out a congratulatory word based on false reports of the French massacre.

[bar Jonah]

No, the Vatican sent out a congratulatory word based on false reports of the French massacre.
And over the following half century, a million Protestants were murdered, and the Catholic Church was... what... still receiving bad intelligence? Or they knew and just did nothing about it? Or they wanted to stop it, but were weak and ineffectual and impotent?

Pick a card... any card...

[Agent Yoshi]

What have you said to me that has anything to do with this thread?

Let me put this to you in the simplest terms I can. And if I sound annoyed, it's because I am.

You are complaining about things which happened 500 years ago to people like Martin Luther, about the murders of people like him by the Catholic Church. YET, you ignore the fact that these people have the same blood on their hands. The best example of this is Martin Luther ordering my people's buildings to be destroyed and my people killed. There is a reason Hitler used his writings for propaganda.

Your people have killed my people, tortured my people, forced my people to convert to their religion (or else), and more. Am I reguarly complaining about this? NO!

The stupidest thing about this all is, no matter who is right on this issue, it won't effect you one way or another. The RCC isn't threatening your life, and doesn't try to kill all the non-Catholic Christians these days.

But guess what, things like this are still VERY VERY real to me. And I'm not talking about all the moaning the ADL has done about Gibson's movie. I'm talking about life or death scenarios. Hamas and other terrorist organizations, using the writings of Luther and others as propaganda - threatens the life of people I love daily, and when I make aliya, will threaten my life.

You think i'm kidding? I'M NOT!

Last year, I was going about on a normal school day when I heard about the bombing of Cafe Hillel. My heart stopped beating the second I heard about it, because friends of mine live close to it, and would go to it from time to time.
I was like, "Oh God, please don't let it be them, please don't let it be them!"
I got on a computer as soon as I could, and B"H there was an email from them saying that they were not involved in the act of TERRORISM, but they could not leave there homes at all because of all the ruckus.

Being that the nearest Karaite community is close to 1000 miles away, and the people I study with the most (via net) live in Israel & Jerusalem, this is very dear to me. May the time I make aliya come soon.

I believe StillSmallVoice lives in Jerusalem - he can attest to you of the violence our people endures.

Everyone, please forgive me if this was a bit of a rant. I try not to complain about these things. But when a person complains that one sect's ancestors did such and such, and their own sect's ancestors did the same, and it doesn't effect them in any way, it sorta sets me off.

[Agent Yoshi]

RightIdea - your scripture quote in your sig. is one of my favorite!

[Agent Yoshi]

Oh yeah, let's not forget all the loving actions that non-Catholic Christians committed towards the Native Americans. (NOT!)

Can anyone say 'the trail of tears'?

The more ironic part of it all, the Cherokee involved with the trail of tears had converted to Christianity, and the Christians of those days still commited horrible, ungodly attrocities against them.

Yet they're somehow innocent because of all the crap the RCC did.

Yeah... right.

[spl_cadet]

And over the following half century, a million Protestants were murdered, and the Catholic Church was... what... still receiving bad intelligence? Or they knew and just did nothing about it? Or they wanted to stop it, but were weak and ineffectual and impotent?

Pick a card... any card...

1. One of his "complaints" was that the Vatican praised the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre.
2. I'm also asking for a reputable source regarding the number of Protestants killed, period.
3. Shall we see how many Catholics were killed by the Protestants?

[Jude3b]

1. One of his "complaints" was that the Vatican praised the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre.
2. I'm also asking for a reputable source regarding the number of Protestants killed, period.
3. Shall we see how many Catholics were killed by the Protestants?

Wickersham, History of the Church
F.G. Smith, Revelation

[spl_cadet]

Jude, reputable source does not mean simply posting the obviously biased and trashy sources that you've already used.

[bar Jonah]

Shalu shalom Yerushaliyim!

RightIdea - your scripture quote in your sig. is one of my favorite!
O? Because the whole point of my having it is that it is NOT the salvational message for today. You see, some Christians believe the salvational message never changes in the Bible, "from Genesis to Maps." But some of us recognize that God relates to different people at different ways at different times, and in this way, has different expectations of them at different times, including regarding salvation.

Believers did not had to be circumcised.

Believers did had to be circumcised.

Believers had no Sabbath they had to observe.

Believers had to observe the Sabbath or be destroyed by God.

The scripture in my signature isn't an exhortation to follow this salvational message (this gospel). On the contrary, the point is that this does not match the Christian gospel today -- confess Yeshua is Lord (YHWH) and believe He rose from the dead, and you will be saved.

[Jude3b]

Jude, reputable source does not mean simply posting the obviously biased and trashy sources that you've already used.

Now thats a new low even for you SPL. Just because something doesn't have the Roman Impramatur, doesn't mean it is not true. Quite frankly, if it has the approval of Romanism, it very likely filled with half truths and out right lies.

[spl_cadet]

Now thats a new low even for you SPL. Just because something doesn't have the Roman Impramatur, doesn't mean it is not true. Quite frankly, if it has the approval of Romanism, it very likely filled with half truths and out right lies.

I never said it had to have the Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat. I did however say that it had to be unbiased. Books that refer to "Papists" do not fit such a category.

[Jude3b]

I never said it had to have the Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat. I did however say that it had to be unbiased. Books that refer to "Papists" do not fit such a category.

And what is wrong with "Papists?" Or Romanists?

[spl_cadet]

And what is wrong with "Papists?" Or Romanists?

16th century Anglican insults are:
1. Annoying
2. Show a complete lack of impartiality.

[Jude3b]

I don't believe Wickersham or F.G. Smith were Anglican's although their writings are about 120 or so years old or older.

Impartiality, that sure seems a strange word for a fully brainwashed Romanist like yourself to use.

[bar Jonah]

16th century Anglican insults are:
1. Annoying
2. Show a complete lack of impartiality.
If they disagree with the RCC, they must be wrong! :riwink:

[spl_cadet]

I don't believe Wickersham or F.G. Smith were Anglican's although their writings are about 120 or so years old or older.

The term was originally an Anglican insult.


Impartiality, that sure seems a strange word for a fully brainwashed Romanist like yourself to use.


:ahem:



If they disagree with the RCC, they must be wrong!

I consider them about as trustworthy a source as an economics text that refers to the proletarian, and does so not in reference to communism.

[Jude3b]

I do not believe that Wickersham was an Anglican and I know F.G. Smith was not.

But back to the thread, so SPL, you deny that Rome killed the early Protestants?

[Agent Yoshi]

I do not believe that Wickersham was an Anglican and I know F.G. Smith was not.

But back to the thread, so SPL, you deny that Rome killed the early Protestants?

Do you deny that protestants murdered my ancestors, Jude3b?

[Jude3b]

Do you deny that protestants murdered my ancestors, Jude3b?

There are some things I just don't know. Who were your ancestors?

[rocketman]

There are some things I just don't know.

:shocked:

[bar Jonah]

Do you deny that protestants murdered my ancestors, Jude3b?
Since he's not a Protestant (nor am I), I'm sure he's sympathetic but won't believe he is connected to such an evil act.

Your point?

:shrug:

[Jude3b]

There are some things I just don't know. Who were your ancestors?

[Amazing Rando]

Since he's not a Protestant (nor am I), I'm sure he's sympathetic but won't believe he is connected to such an evil act.

Your point?

:shrug:

RI, if you're not a Catholic, or an Orthodox Christian, you're de facto a Protestant. Yes, they are man made divisions, and yes the true Body of Christ transcends all these divisions, but it's kind of silly to pretend that you transcend the manmade divisions too.

Yosiah was just trying to make a point that modern Catholics are not connected to such an evil act as killing the early protestants either, as is the premise of this thread.

[bar Jonah]

RI, if you're not a Catholic, or an Orthodox Christian, you're de facto a Protestant. Yes, they are man made divisions, and yes the true Body of Christ transcends all these divisions, but it's kind of silly to pretend that you transcend the manmade divisions too.

Yosiah was just trying to make a point that modern Catholics are not connected to such an evil act as killing the early protestants either, as is the premise of this thread.
Neither my doctrine nor my Christian tradition are descended from the Roman Catholic Church. I take NOTHING from them. Neither I nor any predecessor of mine left the RCC in protest. I am not a Protestant. Your definition of "protestant" is fallacious.

[Amazing Rando]

Neither my doctrine nor my Christian tradition are descended from the Roman Catholic Church. I take NOTHING from them. Neither I nor any predecessor of mine left the RCC in protest. I am not a Protestant. Your definition of "protestant" is fallacious.

Oh is it? :eh: Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Protestant) defines "Protestant" as:

A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.

Now, from what I know about you, you agree with all three of these, correct? That would, according to Dictionary.com, make you a Protestant. :wink: I believe this also applies to Jude3b. It doesn't matter if you or your ancestors left the RCC for whatever reason. If you hold to the principles of the reformation, like sola scriptura, justification by faith alone, etc, then you are a Protestant.

C'mon, join the club! It's not so bad, really. :b_evil:

[bar Jonah]

Oh is it? :eh: Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Protestant) defines "Protestant" as:

A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.
Thank you for proving my point! My doctrine and line of tradition are not founded on the principles of the Reformation, which included continued belief in: Purgatory, veneration of Mary, priests forgiving sins, the continued practice of buying and selling indulgences, burning people at the stake with green wood, and (as others here have pointed out) an often viscious hatred of God's chosen people, the Jews.


[quote]Now, from what I know about you, you agree with all three of these, correct? That would, according to Dictionary.com, make you a Protestant. :wink: I believe this also applies to Jude3b. It doesn't matter if you or your ancestors left the RCC for whatever reason. If you hold to the principles of the reformation, like sola scriptura, justification by faith alone, etc, then you are a Protestant.

C'mon, join the club! It's not so bad, really. :b_evil:
You believe murder is wrong, lying is wrong, and one should be courteous and helpful to others. You are a Buddhist? :rihrm:

[Amazing Rando]

You believe murder is wrong, lying is wrong, and one should be courteous and helpful to others. You are a Buddhist? :rihrm:

Ya know what, RI? This calls for another thread! And, oh what the heck. Another poll too! :banana: I hope you'll join me!

[bar Jonah]

Ya know what, RI? This calls for another thread! And, oh what the heck. Another poll too! :banana: I hope you'll join me!
Sure, why not? You already used a poll to determine an issue of absolute doctrinal truth. Why not create another poll to decide a historical fact or non-fact?

:doh: :ahem:

[Amazing Rando]

What are polls but measures of opinions? That's all they are to me. And I'm really itching to know what that poll you had in mind for me was!

[brother vinny]

Obviously, Rome didn't kill enough of the early Protestants. . ..

[Amazing Rando]

Obviously, Rome didn't kill enough of the early Protestants. . ..

And neither did Cleveland! Curse you Cleveland! :rant:

[brother vinny]

And neither did Cleveland! Curse you Cleveland! :rant:

Rando, sometimes I don't know if I like you or not. I make a perfectly good reactionary line, and you come right behind and defuse it!

:rant:

What are you, a moderator or something?

[Amazing Rando]

Rando, sometimes I don't know if I like you or not. I make a perfectly good reactionary line, and you come right behind and defuse it!

:rant:

What are you, a moderator or something?

Why you dirty Brother Vinny! I oughta Edited by a Moderator! :rant: :rant: :rant: :argh: !!!!


:hehe:

[Agent Yoshi]

Since he's not a Protestant (nor am I), I'm sure he's sympathetic but won't believe he is connected to such an evil act.

Your point?

:shrug:

Exactly!

Amazing Rando made clear my point - just as it would be wrong (and against Torah!) to hold modern Christians (of any sect) guilty for what christians of the Middle Ages did to my ancestors, it is unjust and wrong to hold modern Catholics guilty for the things that the Catholics of the Middles ages committed.

[Amazing Rando]

Exactly!

Amazing Rando made clear my point - just as it would be wrong (and against Torah!) to hold modern Christians (of any sect) guilty for what christians of the Middle Ages did to my ancestors, it is unjust and wrong to hold modern Catholics guilty for the things that the Catholics of the Middles ages committed.

You go, Yosiah! :b_cyclps:

I was also thinking last night- judging by the thread title, Jude3b is obviously quite upset as to how the Catholics of the 1500's and 1600's killed some of the early Protestants. But he seems to be completely forgetting that the early Protestants also killed heaps of Catholics as well! It was a tit for tat relationship as far as the killing went. The whole 30 Years War was pretty much a politicized version of Catholic vs. Protestant. Though of course, it had very little to do with religion.

[bar Jonah]

Exactly!

Amazing Rando made clear my point - just as it would be wrong (and against Torah!) to hold modern Christians (of any sect) guilty for what christians of the Middle Ages did to my ancestors, it is unjust and wrong to hold modern Catholics guilty for the things that the Catholics of the Middles ages committed.
Sorry, but you're talking about apples and oranges. "The Protestants" isn't an organization or a structure of people. It is a description of many different kinds of Christians. The Roman Catholic Church, however, is a specific organized body. It is a structure, an organization, an entity that still exists today, and further more, it denies the things it previously did.

If it confessed and repented, that would be one thing. But they cover up, they deny, they rewrite history, or they just plain ignore it. Only rarely does a Catholic -- like Spl_cadet to his credit -- stand up and say, yes, it was right that they tortured men and women civilians, it was right to burn them to death slowly, it was right to starve or mutilate them, and I'm not afraid to stand on what I believe in that regard, and I would even support those methods used against certain people today. Ever since he stated that openly, I have not fought him on that point. I have no intention of persuading him to change his mind on that. My only wish was that non-Catholics would see a member of the RCC stand up for that belief. I respect the guts it takes to say something that is obviously so popular. (And indeed it should go without saying that just because it's unpopular doesn't mean it's wrong.)

But I digress. Apples and oranges, Yosh. "The Protestants" isn't an entity. It's just a descriptor. The RCC is an entity that is largely unrepentant for its numerous crimes against humanity.

[Jude3b]

You go, Yosiah! :b_cyclps:

I was also thinking last night- judging by the thread title, Jude3b is obviously quite upset as to how the Catholics of the 1500's and 1600's killed some of the early Protestants. But he seems to be completely forgetting that the early Protestants also killed heaps of Catholics as well! It was a tit for tat relationship as far as the killing went. The whole 30 Years War was pretty much a politicized version of Catholic vs. Protestant. Though of course, it had very little to do with religion.

The murders, torture and horrible crimes aganist Christians started long before 1500 by the Romanists.

[Amazing Rando]

The murders, torture and horrible crimes aganist Christians started long before 1500 by the Romanists.

But technically, there were no Protestants before 1500, unless you count the Eastern Orthodox schism of 1054 as "Protestant."

[Agent Yoshi]

Sorry, but you're talking about apples and oranges. "The Protestants" isn't an organization or a structure of people. It is a description of many different kinds of Christians. The Roman Catholic Church, however, is a specific organized body. It is a structure, an organization, an entity that still exists today, and further more, it denies the things it previously did.

Yet, in general, Protestants agree on all of what they call "core" or "salvation" issues, and have extremely structured organizations. The Episcopalians even have their own 'diocese'. They have their own conventions where mainly members of their flavor of Christianity will come. Protestants will plan mission projects with other Protestants.

But even if you try to use 'structure' to excuse bashing of modern Catholics, it still falls apart. In the ancient times, we know that Israel had a monarchy with a very established structure. Yet, was King Josiah punished for the sins of King David? No. In II Kings 13 & 14 we see that Israel was with a war with Aram - and that assasins had killed King Joash. Once his son had control of the kingdom, he killed those assasins - but did not hold the children guilty for the crime, in accordance with Torah. (14:6)


If it confessed and repented, that would be one thing. But they cover up, they deny, they rewrite history, or they just plain ignore it. Only rarely does a Catholic -- like Spl_cadet to his credit -- stand up and say, yes, it was right that they tortured men and women civilians, it was right to burn them to death slowly, it was right to starve or mutilate them, and I'm not afraid to stand on what I believe in that regard, and I would even support those methods used against certain people today. Ever since he stated that openly, I have not fought him on that point. I have no intention of persuading him to change his mind on that. My only wish was that non-Catholics would see a member of the RCC stand up for that belief. I respect the guts it takes to say something that is obviously so popular. (And indeed it should go without saying that just because it's unpopular doesn't mean it's wrong.)

Pope John Paul II & Vatican 2 have done much to make ammends for the RCC's former deeds. In addition, as someone else pointed out, Catholics murdered Protestants, and Protestants murdered Catholics.


But I digress. Apples and oranges, Yosh. "The Protestants" isn't an entity. It's just a descriptor. The RCC is an entity that is largely unrepentant for its numerous crimes against humanity.

The OLD RCC is. Nowadays, RCC - at least in my community - are encouraged to visit other churches, and have told me that Christians and Jews do not need to become Catholic, that God knows everyones heart and that they will be judged by that.

[Agent Yoshi]

But technically, there were no Protestants before 1500, unless you count the Eastern Orthodox schism of 1054 as "Protestant."

Or was it the Western Catholic Schism ;)

[Agent Yoshi]

The murders, torture and horrible crimes aganist Christians started long before 1500 by the Romanists.

The murders, torture and horrible crimes aganist Jews started long before 1500 by the Christians of all sects.

Get over it.

[bar Jonah]

The OLD RCC is. Nowadays, RCC - at least in my community - are encouraged to visit other churches, and have told me that Christians and Jews do not need to become Catholic, that God knows everyones heart and that they will be judged by that.
I've said this in the past, and had Spl_cadet slap me down for it. I'd love to see his response to this...

(And this doesn't address my point, which said they are unrepentant of past crimes. I certainly don't believe they are running around torturing people and burning them at the stake today.)

[Amazing Rando]

I've said this in the past, and had Spl_cadet slap me down for it. I'd love to see his response to this...

(And this doesn't address my point, which said they are unrepentant of past crimes. I certainly don't believe they are running around torturing people and burning them at the stake today.)

In some instances, they are apologizing for past misdeeds. I know for a fact that the Pope has apologized for the Church's indecision and indifference about the Holocaust. Post Vatican II, the Church, and especially John Paul II, have been very conciliatory.

Here's one example:

http://www.detnews.com/2000/religion/0004/27/a16-44790.htm[/url]]By Stan Lehman / Associated Press

PORTO SEGURO, Brazil -- Five hundred years after the first mass was celebrated in Brazil, the Roman Catholic Church will apologize for the "sins and errors" committed by its clergy against Indians and blacks.
The apology will be read today at a special mass near the spot where Friar Henrique de Coimbra celebrated the first mass April 26, 1500, four days after the Portuguese expedition made landfall.
Church officials expect about 50,000 people, including more than 300 bishops, to attend the open-air mass in Coroa Vermelha, outside this seaside resort 500 miles northeast of Rio de Janeiro. Secretary of State of the Vatican Cardinal Angelo Sodano will represent the pope at mass.
"The mass will be a moment of penitence," said the Most Rev. Raymundo Damasceno Assis, secretary general of the National Brazilian Bishops' Conference.
"We will ask God to forgive the sins and errors committed by the Roman Catholic clergy against the human rights and dignity of the Indians, the first inhabitants of this land, and the blacks who were brought here as slaves."
The church will "admit that some of the acts committed by its clergy over the past 500 years did not correspond to what is written in the Gospel," he said.

A little research and you'll find that the RCC has recently been admitting the injustices and abuses committed on its behalf. :deal:

[spl_cadet]

The OLD RCC is. Nowadays, RCC - at least in my community - are encouraged to visit other churches, and have told me that Christians and Jews do not need to become Catholic, that God knows everyones heart and that they will be judged by that.

The need is only abrogated in the instance of invincible ignorance. The question however is: What constitutes invincible ignorance? And there is plenty of disussion about that. My position is that anyone who rejects the Gospel (unless it is Chick-type presentation or such) does not have invincible ignorance and that any Christian who knows that the Church is the True Church, as it claims, sins in staying outside of the Church.

[bar Jonah]

The need is only abrogated in the instance of invincible ignorance. The question however is: What constitutes invincible ignorance? And there is plenty of disussion about that. My position is that anyone who rejects the Gospel (unless it is Chick-type presentation or such) does not have invincible ignorance and that any Christian who knows that the Church is the True Church, as it claims, sins in staying outside of the Church.
So then, since I definitely do not know the RCC is the "one true church," this is not one of the reasons I'm going to Hell?



(And if it's any consolation, you're just as frustrating to me as I must be to you...) :lol:

[Jude3b]

The need is only abrogated in the instance of invincible ignorance. The question however is: What constitutes invincible ignorance? And there is plenty of disussion about that. My position is that anyone who rejects the Gospel (unless it is Chick-type presentation or such) does not have invincible ignorance and that any Christian who knows that the Church is the True Church, as it claims, sins in staying outside of the Church.

"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47b) If you get saved, you'll be in the true church of God, automatically - placed there by Jesus Christ himself. The church of God, built by Christ, clearly consists of all who are born-again, saved by Christ by grace through Faith." Many because of ignorance andor because of Religions false teachers, do not know or understand what the True Church of God is. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name" "there I am (that is Jesus Christ) in the midst of them (Matthew 18:20). The ekklesia, or "called out assembly" is the church of God. It is "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" (Hebrews 12:23) and it consists of all the saved on earth and the ones who have already gone to heaven. It is not a religion, it is not Romanism.

[Jude3b]

"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47b) If you get saved, you'll be in the true church of God, automatically - placed there by Jesus Christ himself. The church of God, built by Christ, clearly consists of all who are born-again, saved by Christ by grace through Faith." Many because of ignorance andor because of Religions false teachers, do not know or understand what the True Church of God is. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name" "there I am (that is Jesus Christ) in the midst of them (Matthew 18:20). The ekklesia, or "called out assembly" is the church of God. It is "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" (Hebrews 12:23) and it consists of all the saved on earth and the ones who have already gone to heaven. It is not a religion, it is not Romanism.

This must be the final Word on this subject. The Romanists give up!

[Agent Yoshi]

Jude3b,

No one has given up - except in regards to debating with a fool who ignores everything that disagrees with their fantasy world.

[Jude3b]

Contrast Romanism with Christianity. Christians promote the faith in a persuasive, kindly, and peaceable manner. Sharing the Word of God as the opportunity presents itself.

The history of Romanism and Islam both is that of a persecuting power. These two major false religions of this world are a infamous for using torture, imprisonment, disgrace and death to try to stop and stamp out Christianity. This should be so obvious to any student of history, but the sad part is most religionists could care less about history.

[Agent Yoshi]

Tell that to the Native Americans. Tell that to the Mormons. Both were murdered and persecuted by Christians.

Until recentely, Islam's record had actually been pretty good as to how it treated those it conquered. It had it's bloody moments also.

[Amazing Rando]

Rome killed the early Protestants

Take that, early Protestants! Mwahaha! :b_evil:

[mandolin]

Jude,

Please hear me out here...

While the Catholic church has been pretty corrupt at times, so have christians of all sects and denominations.
Even towards other "christians"

For one example (among MANY possible examples)

Ever heard of the anabaptists? :doh:
They were those disagreeing with infant baptism...right? (hence the name re-baptizers)
However, the swiss reformers (zwingli's followers...presbyterians and others of "reformed theology"), the German reformers (under Luther) , the English reform (episcopalian), AND the Roman Catholics got their jollies out of killing these folks.

You seem to think that the reformers were flawless and were always the victim...that is very far from accurate.
While they did many great things, they still had a lot of corruption, and still have a lot of corruption even today.

...It's ironic really :smile:
You are right, Rome killed early protestants.
But you forget that protestants killed early protestants too.

:whistle: I suppose you'll just ignore this little fact?

[Jude3b]

This thread is about Rome killing the early Protestants.

Dr. Marianus de Luca, S. J., Professor of Canon Law at the Georgian University of Rome, said in his Institution of Public Ecclesiastical Law, with a personal commendation from pope Leo XIII,m in 1901: "The Catholic Church has the right and duty to kill heretics..."

Not many Roman Catholics are aware that their Religion believes that. Check it out. If you really love God, I am certain you will obey Him and "come out of her, my people."

[mandolin]

But Jude...as I have shown...
Many protestants felt the same way.
Why not condemn all protestants?

"The Catholic Church has the right and duty to kill heretics..."

Not many Roman Catholics are aware that their Religion believes that.
And not many protestants know that their religion believed the same thing. :shrug:


You are right...the thread is not about protestants killing protestants, it is about Roman Catholics killing protestants.
But I suggest that if you are going to condemn the RC's then you better also condemn the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Episcopalians, etc. And also, since all protestant sects can be traced back to these, I guess you have to condemn all of them?

No?
Why the double standard? :poke:

[Jude3b]

This thread is about Rome killing the early Protestants. The horrors that the harlot of Religions (Romanism) heeped on the human race is as bad as anything that the Hitlers and Saddams of this world have ever done. Most Roman Catholics don't know history and what kind of an organization they remain a part of. Rome of course does not want anyone to know about its sordid satanic past and so they rewrite history.

[mandolin]

Jude...dude...
This thread is about Rome killing the early Protestants. The horrors that the harlot of Religions (Romanism) heeped on the human race is as bad as anything that the Hitlers and Saddams of this world have ever done. Most Roman Catholics don't know history and what kind of an organization they remain a part of. Rome of course does not want anyone to know about its sordid satanic past and so they rewrite history.

You seriously don't see my point?? :doh:

most presbyterians don't know their murderous history. Lutherans don't. All other protestant sects don't.

Catch my drift yet?

Either condemn them all, or calm down your catholic-hating. :hrm:

You judge them by their history. Do you hate Americans of today because their ancestors killed indians? Do you hate all "white people" of today because their ancestors had slaves?
I still call myself American and a "white person"...but i don't think someone has the right to call me a murderer just because of the history of America and "white people".

And as I've already asked many-a-time...
Do you condemn protestants for killing protestants as you condemn the catholics?

No?
Then why the double standard?

I'm not a catholic, and don't agree with catholicism...but you make me want to start being catholic.
However, if you want a good reason to criticize catholics, try attacking penances and indulgences. Or the legalism of the 7 sacraments. Perhaps attack the liturgical heirarchy, or the overemphasis of a mediator between man and God apart from Christ...but not the closed-minded way that you have attacked them previously.

Don't hypocritically attack their history as you hide behind your bloody protestant shroud.

And please tone down the hatred just a tad.
Being passionate about your thinking is one thing...but hatred and unjust condemnation of others is something else. Thanks.

[Jude3b]

The thread is about the mother of harlots - Romanism, which persecuted and killed many thousands of Christians (early Protestants). Why don't you start your thread about Protestants killing whoever. I might post there on that subject - if it shows to be interesting.

[mandolin]

My point is that you are condemning a faith based on it's history when it's history is shared by "all" faiths.

And also, why judge today's group of catholics based on the actions of yesterdays group? If you do this, why not do the same for Americans, Protestants, Jews, Whites, etc?

there are protestants today that think we ought to slaughter all gays, are we to consider all protestant as lost souls destined for hellfire? This seems to be the logic you use for catholics. Many non-catholic denominations have bloody history...are they "the mother of harlots" as well?

The thread is about the mother of harlots - Romanism

This thread seems to more be based around you hypocritically attacking catholic history while hiding behind the bloody shroud of protestantism.

It seems to be about critiquing and condemning an entire people-group for the actions of a past people-group.
Is it my fault that white settlers slaughtered the Native Americans?
So are we really to blame today's catholics for the murders of hundreds of years ago? :huh:


I agree that RC has done many bad things...
I disagree with your hypocritical and rash condemnations.

[Agent Yoshi]

Funny Jude3b,

It seems that you want to do the same thing, except in your case you're trying to clear the name of the early Protestants.

Both have blood on their hands. Get over it. There are anti-semites on the net, using the same logic you do, who would have my people all murdered.

This thread is about Rome killing the early Protestants. The horrors that the harlot of Religions (Romanism) heeped on the human race is as bad as anything that the Hitlers and Saddams of this world have ever done. Most Roman Catholics don't know history and what kind of an organization they remain a part of. Rome of course does not want anyone to know about its sordid satanic past and so they rewrite history.

[Agent Yoshi]

I'm out of here guys. This thread is going NOWHERE, and it's a waste of time to stay here.

[Amazing Rando]

The thread is about the mother of harlots - Romanism, which persecuted and killed many thousands of Christians (early Protestants). Why don't you start your thread about Protestants killing whoever. I might post there on that subject - if it shows to be interesting.

Did it occur to you that all that stuff was hundreds of years ago? People can reform with the help of Jesus Christ. So can institutions. The RCC is one such organization that has cleaned up its act tremendously over the last several hundred years. In many cases, they've repented for their past injustices and atrocities. Can't you forgive them like Christians are supposed to and drop this vendetta of yours?

[Jude3b]

Did it occur to you that all that stuff was hundreds of years ago? People can reform with the help of Jesus Christ. So can institutions. The RCC is one such organization that has cleaned up its act tremendously over the last several hundred years. In many cases, they've repented for their past injustices and atrocities. Can't you forgive them like Christians are supposed to and drop this vendetta of yours?

The Roman Church still has within it some truth and that is not to be denied. It has many, many fine people and loving priests and nuns too! It has some things to its credit. It claims to believe in the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the miracles of Christ, the resurrection, a future judgment, heaven and hell. The problem is, it nullifies these truths to a considerable extent by adding to or subtracting from what the Bible teaches.

The Roman Catholic church claims to accept the Bible as the Word of God but adds to it a great body of tradition as of equal authority, even though the tradition contradicts the Bible and largely supplants it. Romanism lets tradition be superior to the Bible since it gives the official interpretation of the Bible.

The Roman Catholic church teaches the deity of Christ. But it places Mary and the priest as mediators between Him and the believer, so there is no way of access to Him except through them.

Numerous Biblical errors and teachings could be listed here about Romanism as compared with the Word of God.

Admittedly there are many saintly souls in the Roman Catholic church, but a religion must be judged, not by any individual, but as a system. Surely the fruits of Romanism as they have been manifested throughout history are sufficient to disprove its claim that it is "the only true church." Indeed, when seen at its best it is a badly deformed type of Christianity, and when seen as it more often manifests itself in history and in countries where it has much control, it is gigantic business and political organization that merely uses religion as a cloak. Its interpretation of the Scriptures is so erroneous and its practices are so persistently unchristian that over the long period of time its influence for good is outweiged by its influence for evil. It must, therefore, as a system, be judged to be a false church. If it were to ever truly clean up its act, it would cease to exist - for it would no longer be Roman Catholic, but would become a part of the Christian church, the body of Christ, the church of God that we read about in the Bible.

[kofh2u]

Rome killed the early Protestants; during the reign of Queen Mary 288 reformers were burned, why? Because these men held to the truth, and did not compromise with Rome but today most Christians have forgotten the roots and are joining hands with Rome and say, let us pray, love and embrace each other, let us pray for the Pope, and Roman Catholicism, yes says many ignorant Christians, and they join with Roman Catholics together and say., "we all believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the virgin birth, Christ's bodily resurrection and therefore Romanism is not a cult, she has errors, we need to pray for the Pope and instead of fighting with each other let us love them, embrace them."
All that despite the fact that most Bible believing Christians know that Rome absolutely denies the Bible doctrine of justification by faith alone, pronouncing it is an anathema (Divine curse) upon those who hold to this principle. Which by the way, it is the only way to be saved and the only way to get to heaven!
I beleive there is no difference between the modern Roman Catholic church and the church of Luther's day. BUT LUTHER STOOD UP FOR THE TRUTH AND HE CONTINUED ON THE TRUTH, Luther was not looking for popularity as he was ex-communicated from the Roman Catholic church as a heretic, BUT HE WAS GOD'S HERO FOR STANDING FOR THE TRUTH.
Where are the Saints of God who will stand for the truth today???
Sincerely, Jude 3b


Jude 3b, hello...
It is good that you know history as well as you do. Written history is like tale, or perhaps tail, that gives us a long view, perspective, from which to both count our blessings and reconsider former behaviors.

Nevertheless, it is also an important data report for prophecy. 2000 years ago, St John wrote exactly what was to happen when the church as the church grew and matured, growing as do children, pasages of development.

Consider these verses:

Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, Bibles, their covers clothing them in sackcloth, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score "days," from 364 AD, the end of the reign of Julian the Apostate, until the days of Martin Luther and the formation of sixth church in Asia, Protestantism, 1624 AD.

Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks, the Old Testament and the New Testament, standing before the God of the earth, the Word of Universal Christianity.

Rev. 11:5 And if any man will hurt them by dissent or heresy, fire at the stake proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will offer doctrine at variance with the orthodoxy, he must in this manner be killed, burned at the stake.

Rev. 11:6 These have power to shut heaven ending religious discourse, that controversy shall not reign in the days of the Dark Ages of their prophecy: and have power over the waters of congregations to turn them to the blood of the Eucharist in sacred dogma, and to smite the earth with all plagues of trials and inquisitions as often as they will.

[Jude3b]

Jude 3b, hello...
It is good that you know history as well as you do. Written history is like tale, or perhaps tail, that gives us a long view, perspective, from which to both count our blessings and reconsider former behaviors.

Nevertheless, it is also an important data report for prophecy. 2000 years ago, St John wrote exactly what was to happen when the church as the church grew and matured, growing as do children, pasages of development.

Consider these verses:

Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, Bibles, their covers clothing them in sackcloth, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score "days," from 364 AD, the end of the reign of Julian the Apostate, until the days of Martin Luther and the formation of sixth church in Asia, Protestantism, 1624 AD.

Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks, the Old Testament and the New Testament, standing before the God of the earth, the Word of Universal Christianity.

Rev. 11:5 And if any man will hurt them by dissent or heresy, fire at the stake proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will offer doctrine at variance with the orthodoxy, he must in this manner be killed, burned at the stake.

Rev. 11:6 These have power to shut heaven ending religious discourse, that controversy shall not reign in the days of the Dark Ages of their prophecy: and have power over the waters of congregations to turn them to the blood of the Eucharist in sacred dogma, and to smite the earth with all plagues of trials and inquisitions as often as they will.

Consider this verse:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. If any man shall add unto these things. God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy. God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev. 22: 18 & 19)

[BibleMan]

Rome killed the early Protestants; during the reign of Queen Mary 288 reformers were burned, why? Because these men held to the truth, and did not compromise with Rome but today most Christians have forgotten the roots and are joining hands with Rome and say, let us pray, love and embrace each other, let us pray for the Pope, and Roman Catholicism, yes says many ignorant Christians, and they join with Roman Catholics together and say., "we all believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the virgin birth, Christ's bodily resurrection and therefore Romanism is not a cult, she has errors, we need to pray for the Pope and instead of fighting with each other let us love them, embrace them."
All that despite the fact that most Bible believing Christians know that Rome absolutely denies the Bible doctrine of justification by faith alone, pronouncing it is an anathema (Divine curse) upon those who hold to this principle. Which by the way, it is the only way to be saved and the only way to get to heaven!
I beleive there is no difference between the modern Roman Catholic church and the church of Luther's day. BUT LUTHER STOOD UP FOR THE TRUTH AND HE CONTINUED ON THE TRUTH, Luther was not looking for popularity as he was ex-communicated from the Roman Catholic church as a heretic, BUT HE WAS GOD'S HERO FOR STANDING FOR THE TRUTH.
Where are the Saints of God who will stand for the truth today???
Sincerely, Jude 3b



Many Christians are standing for the truth today, but most of the ones being killed are being killed at the hands of the wacko crazies in Muslim countries. Islamic nut cases are murdering and killing and nobody is doing anything about it. The News Media even seems to favor the Islamic wackos and ignores the fact that they kill innocent Christians, men, women and children.

Also, I have heard that some are being killed today by the Communists in Vietnam, but to a much lesser degree than in Islamic countries.

In this respect Christians would be well to stand with Catholics against Islam, before the Wacko Muslims take over the whole world by the "Sword."

I like what the pope recently said, It went something like this: "If Muslims can build Mosques in the West, than the Western Religions should be allowed to build churches in Muslim countries."

I'd go a step further. Until a Muslim country allows true 100% freedom of religion in their country, no Muslims from those countries should be allwed to immigrate to Western nations that have freedom of Religion.

[Pilgrim]

I'm not trying to be offensive, but seriously, that's a really bad idea.

[Joe Gofish]

Rome killed the early Protestants; during the reign of Queen Mary 288 reformers were burned, why? Because these men held to the truth, and did not compromise with Rome but today most Christians have forgotten the roots and are joining hands with Rome and say, let us pray, love and embrace each other, let us pray for the Pope, and Roman Catholicism, yes says many ignorant Christians, and they join with Roman Catholics together and say., "we all believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the virgin birth, Christ's bodily resurrection and therefore Romanism is not a cult, she has errors, we need to pray for the Pope and instead of fighting with each other let us love them, embrace them."
All that despite the fact that most Bible believing Christians know that Rome absolutely denies the Bible doctrine of justification by faith alone, pronouncing it is an anathema (Divine curse) upon those who hold to this principle. Which by the way, it is the only way to be saved and the only way to get to heaven!
I beleive there is no difference between the modern Roman Catholic church and the church of Luther's day. BUT LUTHER STOOD UP FOR THE TRUTH AND HE CONTINUED ON THE TRUTH, Luther was not looking for popularity as he was ex-communicated from the Roman Catholic church as a heretic, BUT HE WAS GOD'S HERO FOR STANDING FOR THE TRUTH.
Where are the Saints of God who will stand for the truth today???
Sincerely, Jude 3b

jUDE YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO ALL cHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD TODAY.
Jude are you a member of the KKK ? Do you also hate blacks ?

[Joe Gofish]

Dear Roman Catholics that are reading this post: The problem with Romanism is that it is a false religion and teaches another gospel, and has another Jesus. How can a Christian who has actually read the Bible and determines to live by it and obey it, compromise with false religion? No can do!

Some examples: 1) Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic church: (Catechism Pg. 215, #816).
2) Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is through good works (Catechism Pg. 222, #837).
3) Roman Catholicism has itself as the Final Authority: (Catechism Pg. 29, #95).
4) Roman Catholicism, like every other "Cult" teaches that it is the one true church: (Catechism Pg. 214: #811).

Let me know if you'd like me to greatly expand this list of proofs that Romanism is a Cult, a false religion, has another Gospel and anotherr Jesus, and I'll gladly list many, many more.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

Jude why do you keep saying Roman Catholics ,is it out of your ingnorance. We have about 1.2billion Catholics in the world today, are you talking about all Catholics or just the Roman Catholics or do you know the diff.
Try answering one question.
Jude with all the hate you have are you a member of the KKK ?

[BibleMan]

I'm not trying to be offensive, but seriously, that's a really bad idea.


It won't happen, but why would that be a bad idea? Would it be better to let them conquer the world one nation at a time, but use of the Sword in the name of Allah? All the while Christians are not allowed to even build or rebuild church buildings in many Islamic countries.

[Joe Gofish]

Rome killed the early Protestants; during the reign of Queen Mary 288 reformers were burned, why? Because these men held to the truth, and did not compromise with Rome but today most Christians have forgotten the roots and are joining hands with Rome and say, let us pray, love and embrace each other, let us pray for the Pope, and Roman Catholicism, yes says many ignorant Christians, and they join with Roman Catholics together and say., "we all believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the virgin birth, Christ's bodily resurrection and therefore Romanism is not a cult, she has errors, we need to pray for the Pope and instead of fighting with each other let us love them, embrace them."
All that despite the fact that most Bible believing Christians know that Rome absolutely denies the Bible doctrine of justification by faith alone, pronouncing it is an anathema (Divine curse) upon those who hold to this principle. Which by the way, it is the only way to be saved and the only way to get to heaven!
I beleive there is no difference between the modern Roman Catholic church and the church of Luther's day. BUT LUTHER STOOD UP FOR THE TRUTH AND HE CONTINUED ON THE TRUTH, Luther was not looking for popularity as he was ex-communicated from the Roman Catholic church as a heretic, BUT HE WAS GOD'S HERO FOR STANDING FOR THE TRUTH.
Where are the Saints of God who will stand for the truth today???
Sincerely, Jude 3b

Jude WHAT ROMAN CATHOLICS are you talking about,we have about 1.2 billions Catholics in the world today and not all are Roman Catholic in fact the name Roman Catholics was not even aroung to about 1055,so once again you are just ranting and raving and not know what you are talking about,May God gave mersy on your soul.