Jewish Two Messiah Theory. Fits with Revelation?

[tate4242]

I feel that it is indeed necessary for the lost tribes
to emigrate to Israel and participate in the rebuilding of the
third temple as rapidly as we possibly can. Do we want Moshiach
ben David back here on this earth as soon as possible?
If the answer is yes then it seems obvious that the third temple
must be constructed before the return of Moshiach.

"The sound of noise from the city! A voice from the temple!
The voice of the LORD, who fully repays His enemies!" (Isaiah
66:6).

It seems to me that this verse obviously puts the construction of
"the temple" as previous to the return of Moshiach to cleanse it
of his enemies, who take over, probably at the time of the death
of Moshiach ben Yosef/Ephrayim.


"Rabbi Zvi Kalisher in his book Am Habonim
Smaycha said "Judah will first return to Israel and prepare
the land, so that it will ultimately be able to support a
great community. Then part of the lost ten tribes will
return and together with the Jews build the Third Temple.
Once the temple is rebuilt, the remainder and numerically
greater part of the lost ten tribes WILL ALSO COME BACK,
WHEN (SUFFERING) MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH APPEARS
and reigns in Jerusalem. Then all Israel will hallow THE
NAME of Elohim (Yahweh) and all will worship Him in one
tongue-Hebrew!" Here is a traditional rabbi, who ties in
the two-house restoration of Israel with the appearing
of Messiah Ben Yosef , the suffering dying Messiah of
Israel, coming to reign! If Yahshua is Messiah Ben Yosef,
then both houses are being reunited by Him." (Rabbi Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky, "What Judaism Really Says About Joseph's Seed, yourarmstoisrael.org

"If Yahshua is Messiah Ben Yosef," well, obviously,
Yahshua is not Messiah ben Yosef, Yahshua/Jesus,
in my opinion, is Mosiach ben David, the one who
brings Israel into the perfect kingdom. Mashiach ben
Yosef on the other hand is the one who is instrumental
in the regathering of the lost tribes of Israel, and in the
construction of the third temple. Mashiach ben Yosef
gets killed in the eastern gate by Armilius, and Mashiach
ben David returns shortly to resurrect and avenge him,
(at least this is what is quite clearly taught on all
articles on the subject of Moshiach/Mashiach ben
Yosef that I have been able to read so far.

"Moshiach ben Yossef (Moshiach the descendant
of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph),
is also referred to as Moshiach ben Ephrayim, Moshiach
the descendant of Ephraim. He will come first, before
the final redeemer, and later will serve as his viceroy.
The essential task of Moshiach ben Yossef is to act as
precursor to Moshiach ben David: he will prepare the
world for the coming of the final redeemer. Different
sources attribute to him different functions, some even
charging him with tasks traditionally associated with
Moshiach ben David (such as the ingathering of the exiles,
the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash, and so forth). (Tutorial
Moshiach Ben Yossef by Rabbi Jacob Immanuel Schochet, moshiach.com)

Is Moshiach ben Yosef the last Elijah? Maybe, one could
certainly come to that conclusion based on the prophecy
contained in the Catholic Bible.

"Thus was Elias magnified in his wondrous works.
And who can glory like to thee?
Who raisedst up a dead man from below, from the lot of
death, by the word of the Lord God.
Who broughtest down kings to destruction, and brokest
easily their power in pieces, and the glorious from their bed.
Who heardest judgment in Sina, and in Horeb the judgments
of vengeance.
Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets
successors after thee.
Who was taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of
fiery horses.
Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease
the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father
to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob." (Ecclesiasticus 48:6-10).


In my opinion, it is more likely that Moshiach ben Yosef
is moreso identifiable with Moses. In the book "Lost Temple
Treasures" by Dr. Randall Price I read the tradition that in
the end of days, the last Elijah would have to "wake up" Moses.

"Comes From the North “Kol HaTor” says [2.11]
“His glory is like the firstborn of his bull” (Deuteronomy
33;17). The MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH comes from the
north side and will be aroused by himself..."
"The First Redeemer [MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH] fights
against Amalek with total warfare…[he fights against the
forces of anti-Semitism]. This was the task of Joshua ben
Nun who was [a forerunner and ancestor of] the Messiah
Son of Joseph. Aroused by Elijah “Kol HaTor” says [2.71]
“Behold I will send you my prophet Elijah…and he will return
the hearts of the fathers to their sons” (Malachi 4). One
of the tasks of Elijah is to arouse the spirit of the MESSIAH
SON OF JOSEPH." (Yair Davidiy, The Two Messiahs, britam.org).

This is very good news. In these final days, we not only
are
promised to be sent the final Elijah, but also a Moshiach
ben Yosef who certainly sees to be identifiable with Moses.
Since we Christians believe firmly that we will be sent two
witnesses, it is very possible that this Jewish prophecy fits
nicely with our book of Revelation.

[Ryan Dallion]

Shouldn't this be in eschatology?

[dizzle]

I think it is perfect here in Judaism. I know it was originally in the Rec room when Ivo posted.

[Spokoina]

What is the two messiah theory exactly. Any URL's or info to read?

[tate4242]

Shalom Everybody,

Sorry for taking so long to make my way back in here.
Yes, I have lots of web pages for those of you interested
in studying this question further. Actually, it will really
help round out your ideas regarding perhaps, universal
salvation, the fairly common idea that perhaps G0d has a
back up plan to get essentially everybody into his Kingdom,
eventually.

If this two Moshiach theory somehow relates to Yom Kippur
in a similar manner to how Yeshua/Jesus fulfilled Passover,
then the possibility that this idea relates to:

Romans 11:26 - "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it
is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and
shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

Here is the Yair Davidiy writing on this subject that opens up
the possibility that this Moshiach ben Yosef, who along with
the final Elijah must prepare the way before the coming of
Moshiach ben David, might not be obviously Jewish but instead
could truly be descended from one of the lost tribes of Israel.

http://www.britam.org/messiah.html


Here is the Moshiach.com writing on this subject. This website
is non Messianic and Lubavichter. Essentially all Messianic
groups that I know of attempt to fit Moshiach ben Yosef into
the mold of Yeshua/Jesus but if this writing is correct that this
person prepares the way before the coming of Moshiach ben
David, then it seems more logial to associate Moshiach ben David
with Yeshua/Jesus and at least consider that perhaps the Jews
are correct thus making a link between Moshiach ben Yosef and
the second of the two witnesses, more logical.

http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/moshiach_ben_yossef.php

This six part writing by Rabbi Pinchas Winston is the most
comprehensive writing that I have ran into so far on Moshiach ben Yosef.

http://www.thirtysix.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Subjects&file=index&req=viewpage&pageid=7

This is the writing by Yair Davidiy that begins to equate Moshiach
ben Yosef with the Cyrus prophecies of Isaiah 42- 45.

http://www.britam.org/cyrus.html

[kofh2u]

Shalom Everybody,

Sorry for taking so long to make my way back in here.
Yes, I have lots of web pages for those of you interested
in studying this question further. Actually, it will really
help round out your ideas regarding perhaps, universal
salvation, the fairly common idea that perhaps G0d has a
back up plan to get essentially everybody into his Kingdom,
eventually.

If this two Moshiach theory somehow relates to Yom Kippur
in a similar manner to how Yeshua/Jesus fulfilled Passover,
then the possibility that this idea relates to:

Romans 11:26 - "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it
is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and
shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

Here is the Yair Davidiy writing on this subject that opens up
the possibility that this Moshiach ben Yosef, who along with
the final Elijah must prepare the way before the coming of
Moshiach ben David, might not be obviously Jewish but instead
could truly be descended from one of the lost tribes of Israel.

http://www.britam.org/messiah.html


Here is the Moshiach.com writing on this subject. This website
is non Messianic and Lubavichter. Essentially all Messianic
groups that I know of attempt to fit Moshiach ben Yosef into
the mold of Yeshua/Jesus but if this writing is correct that this
person prepares the way before the coming of Moshiach ben
David, then it seems more logial to associate Moshiach ben David
with Yeshua/Jesus and at least consider that perhaps the Jews
are correct thus making a link between Moshiach ben Yosef and
the second of the two witnesses, more logical.

http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/moshiach_ben_yossef.php

This six part writing by Rabbi Pinchas Winston is the most
comprehensive writing that I have ran into so far on Moshiach ben Yosef.

http://www.thirtysix.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Subjects&file=index&req=viewpage&pageid=7

This is the writing by Yair Davidiy that begins to equate Moshiach
ben Yosef with the Cyrus prophecies of Isaiah 42- 45.

http://www.britam.org/cyrus.html



Thankz for all the work you put into this little known, but traditional and ancient, ben Joseph (the suffering messiah) and ben David (the victorious).

Revelation 5:5 can better be understood as an evrnt yet to come, one which follows "After this... the maturation of tge Christian Church in our own age, the Laocidean Church of our present rich Christian Humanitarism:

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong visionary proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the Sacred Hebrew Scriptures, and to loose the seals thereof?

Rev. 5:5 ... Weep not: behold, the Lion of Judah, the root of David,...
... hath prevailed to open the Sacred Hebrew Scriptures, and to loose the mystery of the multiplicity of seven, as seven seals thereof.

[Timothy Leary]

I think it is perfect here in Judaism. I know it was originally in the Rec room when Ivo posted.

Dee Dee, I believe this would be better in Eschatology or Christianity in general, because this is seeing how things would fit in the Christian scriptures and viewpoints, rather than the Hebrew bible alone.

[kofh2u]

Dee Dee, I believe this would be better in Eschatology or Christianity in general, because this is seeing how things would fit in the Christian scriptures and viewpoints, rather than the Hebrew bible alone.


It doesn't matter if it stays right here because messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah is already clearly recognized by the Christian.
For the Lion of Judah, the root of David to open the book, to demonstrate the meaning of Ezekiel 37 to the Jew does matter. Whereas it is the Christian who first recognizes messiah ben Joseph, it will be to the Jews at last to recognize messiah ben David, trust me.

So, what is written here is for Jews. The spirit of Christ is in the heart of the faithful Christians who will, in his name, redeem Israel.

Messiah ben David will t
en be revealed to the Jew, first and the Christian last, as you remember, the first shall be last,...etc

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves of peace to their (cathedral) windows?

Isa. 60:9 Surely the isles (of the New World) shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish, (first from North America), to bring thy sons (of Abraham) from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, (Christ), because he hath glorified thee (in Christianity).

Isa. 60:10 And the sons of strangers (from the Americas) shall build up thy walls, and their kings (of the Christian denominations) shall minister peace unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee (in Holocaust), but in my favour have I had mercy on thee (and brought thee into the Promised Land).

Isa. 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the (Christian) Gentiles, and that their kings (of the Christian denominations) may be brought (to the Holy Lands).

[shunyadragon]

It doesn't matter if it stays right here because messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah is already clearly recognized by the Christian.
For the Lion of Judah, the root of David to open the book, to demonstrate the meaning of Ezekiel 37 to the Jew does matter. Whereas it is the Christian who first recognizes messiah ben Joseph, it will be to the Jews at last to recognize messiah ben David, trust me.

So, what is written here is for Jews. The spirit of Christ is in the heart of the faithful Christians who will, in his name, redeem Israel.

Isa. 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the (Christian) Gentiles, and that their kings (of the Christian denominations) may be brought (to the Holy Lands).I learn a great deal about prophecies from these threads. Actually the threads on these prophecies also relate to Islam and the Baha'i Faith. The idea of multiple prophets and messiahs is a theme that extends to Mithrite and Zorastrian prophecies. Judism is a good place for it since the root of these prophecies is here.

[tate4242]

I learn a great deal about prophecies from these threads. Actually the threads on these prophecies also relate to Islam and the Baha'i Faith. The idea of multiple prophets and messiahs is a theme that extends to Mithrite and Zorastrian prophecies. Judism is a good place for it since the root of these prophecies is here.

Shalom and Greetings,

There is a fascinating Islamic prophecy that in the end of days, when the Third Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem, that a modern Mohammed will ask pointed questions of Mashiach. I believe that it is possible to use these Islamic prophecies that relate to the Third Temple to help prepare the earth for the rebuilding of the Third Temple, which will not too long precede the coming of Mashiach ben David to the Mt. of Olives, as predicted in Zechariah 14.

I have ran into a fascinating concept lately that the Rapture of the Church may be the ultimate fulfillment of Rosh HaShanah. If this is true then perhaps the ten days between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur may indicate ten years between the Rapture and the time when the sacrifices are stopped. If so then the Third Temple is completed and sacrifices are being made within six and a half years of the time of the Rapture.

I find this idea fascinating.

http://www.almightywind.com/prophecy/proph76.htm

Just as the Shofar Horn is blown at a Jewish Wedding to announce the Groom, so too will I, YAHSHUA, have the Shofar Horn blown to announce MY COMING FOR MY BELOVED BRIDE! Listen for that Shofar Horn, it is not afar off. I prophesied through this ring maiden that I would return again on a Sabbath and I spoke to her, "What IF Rosh HaShanah is the Day I would come, You know not yet which one."

[shunyadragon]

Shalom and Greetings,

There is a fascinating Islamic prophecy that in the end of days, when the Third Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem, that a modern Mohammed will ask pointed questions of Mashiach. I believe that it is possible to use these Islamic prophecies that relate to the Third Temple to help prepare the earth for the rebuilding of the Third Temple, which will not too long precede the coming of Mashiach ben David to the Mt. of Olives, as predicted in Zechariah 14.

I have ran into a fascinating concept lately that the Rapture of the Church may be the ultimate fulfillment of Rosh HaShanah. If this is true then perhaps the ten days between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur may indicate ten years between the Rapture and the time when the sacrifices are stopped. If so then the Third Temple is completed and sacrifices are being made within six and a half years of the time of the Rapture.

I find this idea fascinating.

http://www.almightywind.com/prophecy/proph76.htm
In my view the prophecies in Zechzriah 14 tell first of the division of world into Christian (north) and Islamic (south). Mount of Olives will be divided between the north and south. The waters will then be divided and flow north and south.

Zech 14:9 . 9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name. Is the coming of Baha'u'llah, Yosef Den David.

14:10-11 - Even though the world is divided, Jeruselum will remain secure and protected by the Lord. The homeland is restored forever.

[InChristAlways]

So, what is written here is for Jews. The spirit of Christ is in the heart of the faithful Christians who will, in his name, redeem Israel.

Isa. 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the (Christian) Gentiles, and that their kings (of the Christian denominations) may be brought (to the Holy Lands).If revelation isn't the fulfillment of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem and bringing both nations under ONE KING, Jesus, then those 2 nations are still "divided", the jews of Judah and the hebrews of the house of Israel that God divorced.
Revelation shows a temple with worshippers being measured. It also shows 12 tribes, which would have to be those "2 nations" of Israel. Ironic that it also shows 2 beasts, one with 10 horns/kings (gentiles) and on with 2 horns (jews/Judah?). That equals 12. Revelation would have to fulfill the prophecy of ezekiel 37, either in the first century or in the future. Any views on this?

Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.

Ezek 37:21 "And say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there(jews of Judah?). 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

reve 17: 16 "And the ten horns/KINGS(gentiles?) which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot(Judah?), make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind/judgement, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

[tate4242]

Revelation would have to fulfill the prophecy of ezekiel 37, either in the first century or in the future. Any views on this?
Personally, I believe that Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled at this very moment, and will especially come to life over the next fifty years. If my understanding of this subject is correct, one of the next major events will be that we from the lost tribes will soon help the Jews to construct the Third Temple. I believe that the Anti-Messiah will eventually take control of the temple but soon Mashiach ben David/Yahshua/Jesus will come and cleanse the temple.

My guess as to the meaning of Ezekiel 40-48, the chapters about sacrifices being made through the millennium, would be that this is literal and that either Jews who have not yet accepted Yahshua/Jesus as Passover Lamb will freely be allowed to make sacrifices. Or perhaps the sacrifices and every ordinance of the temple will finally be understood plainly and clearly for all the world to appreciate.

John 16:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn016.html#25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

[kofh2u]

I feel that it is indeed necessary for the lost tribes
to emigrate to Israel and participate in the rebuilding of the
third temple as rapidly as we possibly can. Do we want Moshiach
ben David back here on this earth as soon as possible?
If the answer is yes then it seems obvious that the third temple
must be constructed before the return of Moshiach.

"The sound of noise from the city! A voice from the temple!
The voice of the LORD, who fully repays His enemies!" (Isaiah
66:6).

It seems to me that this verse obviously puts the construction of
"the temple" as previous to the return of Moshiach to cleanse it
of his enemies, who take over, probably at the time of the death
of Moshiach ben Yosef/Ephrayim.


"What Judaism Really Says About Joseph's Seed, yourarmstoisrael.org

"If Yahshua is Messiah Ben Yosef," well, obviously,
Yahshua is not Messiah ben Yosef, Yahshua/Jesus,
in my opinion, is Mosiach ben David, the one who
brings Israel into the perfect kingdom. Mashiach ben
Yosef on the other hand is the one who is instrumental
in the regathering of the lost tribes of Israel, and in the
construction of the third temple. Mashiach ben Yosef
gets killed in the eastern gate by Armilius, and Mashiach
ben David returns shortly to resurrect and avenge him,
(at least this is what is quite clearly taught on all
articles on the subject of Moshiach/Mashiach ben
Yosef that I have been able to read so far.

(Tutorial
Moshiach Ben Yossef by Rabbi Jacob Immanuel Schochet, moshiach.com)

Is Moshiach ben Yosef the last Elijah? Maybe, one could
certainly come to that conclusion based on the prophecy
contained in the Catholic Bible.

(Ecclesiasticus 48:6-10).


In my opinion, it is more likely that Moshiach ben Yosef
is moreso identifiable with Moses. In the book "Lost Temple
Treasures" by Dr. Randall Price I read the tradition that in
the end of days, the last Elijah would have to "wake up" Moses.

(Yair Davidiy, The Two Messiahs, britam.org).

This is very good news. In these final days, we not only
are
promised to be sent the final Elijah, but also a Moshiach
ben Yosef who certainly sees to be identifiable with Moses.
Since we Christians believe firmly that we will be sent two
witnesses, it is very possible that this Jewish prophecy fits
nicely with our book of Revelation.



ABSOLUTELY...

Isa. 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isa. 66:7 Before (Israeli Statehood) she travailed, she brought forth; before (sovereign nationality) her pain came (in Holocaust), she was delivered (in immigrations) of a man child, (Israel citizenship).

Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth (a new country) in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as (had) Zion travailed (in the United Nation approval), she brought forth her children (from the ends of the earth).

Isa. 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth (this nation, Israel), and not
cause to bring forth (my prophecies)? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth (this one prediction), and shut the womb (from those prophecies remaining)? saith thy God.

Isa. 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Isa. 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her
consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

Isa. 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river (of peacemakers), and the glory of the (Christian) Gentiles like a flowing stream (of tourism): then shall ye suck (the economic gains), ye shall be borne upon her sides (of historical sites), and be dandled (as the Holy People of the Book) upon her knees.

Isa. 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Isa. 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the (Aaronic priestly) hand of the LORD shall be known (again) toward his servants, (Hebrew Christians), and his indignation toward his enemies, (in Islam).

Isa. 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire (of the Holy scripture), and with (the vehicle of) his (proseltyzing) chariots (144,000 strong; [Rev 7]), like a whirlwind (among the tw lve (12) Christian denominations), to render his anger (at metaphysical misinterpretation) with fury (his White Throne Judgement; [Matthew 25]), and his rebuke with (scriptural) flames of fire (from the fan in his hand;[Matthew 3:12]).

Isa. 66:16 For by fire (of interpretation) and by his sword (of his mouth; [Rev 1:16]) will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain (in the spirit) of the LORD shall be many.

Isa. 66:17 They that sanctify themselves (in theological dogma), and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree (of political order or another) in the midst (of the gentile nations), eating swine’s flesh (pork), (these Christianized Gentiles), and the abomination (of those of the Renaissance of Paganism;[Rev 20]), and the mouse (of the doctrinal webs spun by their Nicolaitian ministers), shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Isa. 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory [Rev 1:16].

Isa. 66:19 And I will set a sign (of a Cross) among them, and I will send those, (in the diaspora), that escape of them (the Romans), unto the nations, to Tarshish, (which is Spain), Pul, (or Northern Africa), and Lud, (now Ethiopia), that draw the bow (of the Normans and the Saxons in France, Germany, and Britain), to Tubal, (today, Sicily and all Italy), and Javan, (India and/or Arabia), to the isles (of the Americas) afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Isa. 66:20 And they, (these Christianized nations, in 1948 AD), shall bring all your (Jewish) brethren, (collecting from Judah, first, then from among the lost of the ten tribes), for an offering unto the LORD, (the Christ), out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa. 66:21 And I will also take of them for (Kohanim) priests and for Levites, (ministers), saith the LORD.

Isa. 66:22 For as the new (Christian paradigm in the) heavens (of men's minds) and the new (concrete reality of Christian behavior on) earth, which I, (the Word), will make, (it) shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed (of Abraham) and your name (Israel) remain.

Isa. 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh, (in unending, massive, Christian pilgrimage) shall come (to Israel) to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa. 66:24 And they shall go forth (throughout the Promised Land), and look upon the (tombs and buried) carcases of the (dead Jews), men that have transgressed against me: for (the memory of) their (genetic roots, their) worm, shall not die, (their voracious rage against me), neither shall their fire (that criticizes them) be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring (evermore) unto all flesh.

[tate4242]

kofh2u]ABSOLUTELY...

Isa. 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isa. 66:16 For by fire (of interpretation) and by his sword (of his mouth; [Rev 1:16]) will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain (in the spirit) of the LORD shall be many.

Wow! I am kind of amazed to find somebody agreeing with me on this one.

I am very impressed.

When it talks about the slain of the LORD being many, do you think that I am way out in left field to wonder if this may mean Yahshua/Jesus will lead everybody to repentance? Being slain can refer to dying to the flesh, the world, sin.

http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/the_personality_of_moshiach.php


As a faithful shepherd he already cares so much about his people that he volunteered to suffer all kinds of agonies to assure that not a single Jew of all times will be lost.

[InChristAlways]

In my opinion, it is more likely that Moshiach ben Yosef
is moreso identifiable with Moses. In the book "Lost Temple
Treasures" by Dr. Randall Price I read the tradition that in
the end of days, the last Elijah would have to "wake up" Moses.

(Yair Davidiy, The Two Messiahs, britam.org).

This is very good news. In these final days, we not only
are
promised to be sent the final Elijah, but also a Moshiach
ben Yosef who certainly sees to be identifiable with Moses.
Since we Christians believe firmly that we will be sent two
witnesses, it is very possible that this Jewish prophecy fits
nicely with our book of Revelation.Hi. I and others see the 2 witnesses differently.
So you don't believe, as some of us do, that revelation is showing the curses of Deut 28 coming on Israel in the first century (matt 24)? Malachi 2 shows God cursing the priests, then the Lord Himself coming to his temple, then destruction after that I think. Isn't Malachi 4 a prophecy of the destuction of Jerusalem after Jesus came? Thanks.

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

[Theoferrum]

Alright, here's the deal.

It is not just the Jews, but also the Samaritains that teach a Two Messiah Theology.

Their teaching predates the Christian era and thus this is not the Jews reaction to the life and ministry of Y'shua but is, in fact, drawn from the Word of God by competant Israeli Theologians - the Rabbim.

Neither group wanted their Messiah to be the one that dies so they each claimed that the other one was the one that was going to die.

BUT BOTH GROUPS RECOGNIZED TWO MESSIAHS.

The Christians, rightfully, recognize Y'shua as the Messiah Bar David and he is the rightfull heir to the Davidic Throne. Unfortunately, they reject outright the teaching of the Messiah bar Yoseph or Ephraim.

The Sarmaritains recognize both but I don't believe that they teach that the Messiah bar Ephraim is going to die, but the rest of their teaching on him is basically the same as that of the Jewish Rabbim.

The Jews couldn't accept that Messiah bar David was going to die so they assumed that it would be Messiah bar Ephraim that dies and, other than that, there teaching is basically the same as the Samaritains.

And, this is the deal (i.e. I said all that to say all this.).

Messiah bar Ephraim will be literally a descendant of Ephraim however, in order to sit on the Davidic Throne in the Kingdom as vice regent to Y'shuah, he must ALSO BE DESCENDED FROM DAVID per the Davidic Covenant. This is confirmed by Ezekial 37 and the prophecy of the two sticks (which is also the prediction of the regathering of the ten tribes) and that is where the Ancestral Stick of Judah is merged with the Ancestral Stick of Yoseph and the two become one.

This will be fulfilled by a man from Judah (David) marrying a woman from Ephraim (Yoseph) and the son born is the fulfillment of the prediction.

Further, that he does not die is shown in some of the Psalms which seem to merge these two Messiah's together. Several of the Psalms state that this Messiah bar Ephraim "will not see death" but will be blessed with long life forever.

There is much more to this than just the verses I have stated here, which I have written about on various of my posts on my website.

http://tenlosttribes.lbgo.com/index.html

Further, this individual will actually be named David per Jeremiah, Hosea and Ezekial : "And the children of Israel will return and serve Y'hova their God and David their King."

Contrary to the Christian Theologians, this is not refering to King David ressurected, cause this David has kids during the Millenium which King David won't, as a ressurected individual ("In the resurrection they neither marry or are given in marriage.") and this also means it is not Y'shua for the same reasons and thus it MUST BE A VICEREGENT of Y'shua's on the Throne of David.

The viceregency of the Davidic Throne in submission to God's Throne was actually established at Mt. Siniai when the people asked for Moses to be an intermediary between them and God and Y'hova said, "They have well spoken - Oh that they would also thus fear me" and thus the viceregency was established with Moses the de facto King at the time which eventually became the Davidic Throne.

Again, there is much more on this on my site.

Further, just as Y'shua was rejected by his own people ("A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, community and family") than, so also will this individual - this Messiah son of Ephraim - be rejected, for the most part, by the ten lost tribes, at least at first, even to the point where the rulers of the ten lost tribes - religious and political - would want to, and would attempt to, kill this annointed.

"And they shall mourn for him as for their first born son" and "they shall mourn a little for the burden of the king of princes."

I needn't remind you that Y'shua is the King of Kings, not the King of Princes...

[InChristAlways]

Further, just as Y'shua was rejected by his own people ("A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, community and family") than, so also will this individual - this Messiah son of Ephraim - be rejected, for the most part, by the ten lost tribes, at least at first, even to the point where the rulers of the ten lost tribes - religious and political - would want to, and would attempt to, kill this annointed.

"And they shall mourn for him as for their first born son" and "they shall mourn a little for the burden of the king of princes."


Hi. That is true, He was rejected by His own people, the house of Judah from which He came. But remembering also Jesus said He came but for the lost sheep of Israel, and that was the 10 northern tribes God divorced, though Judah stayed "married" but went and played a harlot. If you read Jeremiah in the context that God is talking about, it appears to read vengeance on His sheperds/rulers, and not on literal Babylon. Put also the context of Malachi 2 and the curse on the Priests and that appears to verify it. Jesus in essence came to "take out" the house of Judah and rule Israel instead of Judah ruling Israel. At least that is the way I have viewed it. The book of revelation has to be about bringing both nations together again under one King, Jesus the Christ.

Jeremiah 50:6 " My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away [on] the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.... 44 "Behold, he shall come up like a lion [note Lion of the Tribe of Judah in revelation] from the floodplain of the Jordan Against the dwelling place of the strong; But I will make them suddenly run away from her. And who a chosen [man that] I may appoint over her? For who [is] like Me? Who will arraign Me? And who [is] that shepherd Who will withstand Me?".........[i]46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon The earth trembles, And the cry is heard among the nations.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart.

[Theoferrum]

"But remembering also Jesus said He came but for the lost sheep of Israel, and that was the 10 northern tribes God divorced, though Judah stayed "married" but went and played a harlot. If you read Jeremiah in the context that God is talking about, it appears to read vengeance on His sheperds/rulers, and not on literal Babylon. Put also the context of Malachi 2 and the curse on the Priests and that appears to verify it. Jesus in essence came to "take out" the house of Judah and rule Israel instead of Judah ruling Israel. At least that is the way I have viewed it."

Ah, I think I understand what you are saying here however, I am not quite sure I agree with your premise.

His goal wasn't to "take out" Judah for the offer of the Kingdom was valid and if they had of accepted him as their Messiah, he would have set up the Kingdom over Judah which he still plans on doing at the return.

Because the southern nation, or House of Judah rejected him (which includes the Levitical Priesthood) than the New Covenant (including the Priesthood) was passed to the Northern Nation or House of Ephraim during the interim.

This can be shown by two compliamentary verses.

In the New Covenant passage in Jeremiah 30-33 it says that Y'shua will be a "scandalon" or stumbling stone to BOTH HOUSES of Israel - Ephraim and Judah.

He was a stumbling stone to Judah 2000 years ago and continues such today. But, back then, Ephraim accepted him as Messiah (the Magi were Pathians who were from Ephraim and they acknowledged him as Messiah in the manger) and then they who had been called "not the people of God" were called "the people of God" in the "same place" i.e. Israel.

So, it is obvious that at some time in the future Y'shua will become a stumbling stone to the nation of Ephraim who will reject them as their Messiah and this is what occured on Nisan 1st, 2004 when the Politicians in Washington annointed Moon as Messiah. They basically said, "we will not have this man rule over us."

At that time the Priesthood that had reverted back to Ephraim when the High Priest tore the robe, automatically will revert back to Levi because Ephraim rejected it. This is clearly shown by Hosea through whom the Lord said, "because you " (the house of Ephraim to who Hosea was speaking) "have rejected knowledge, I have rejected you from being PRIESTS before me."

When was Ephraim the Priesthood?

Only during the Church age, when Levi forfeited it at the trial of Yshua.

Now, Ephraim has forfeited the Priesthood and it will revert back to Levi which explains the words of Malachi that God will send his messenger before the face of the Messiah to "try" the Levitical Priesthood as a Silver smith.

Thus the casting off of Judah is only temporary and it is soon to be reversed and, because Ephraim rejected God, he will have to "cause them to pass under the rod" of the Torah during the tribulation.

Great things are about to start happening to both houses of Israel and they are both so unprepared for it all...

[InChristAlways]

Hi all. I have a question on the Holy One of Israel in the OT.
Does anyone else get the impression that God and the Holy One are "seperate"? We of course know God is Holy, but as in the case of Habakkuk what does it mean God came from Teman, The Holy One from Mount Paran? I guess what I am asking is there a reason God would use the "Holy One" besides for saying He is Holy? The NT refers to Jesus as the "Holy One" if the translation is right. Thanks.

Habu 3:2 O LORD, I have heard your speech [and] was afraid; O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years! In the midst of the years make known; In wrath remember mercy. [i]3 God came from Teman["south"], The Holy One from Mount Paran["place of caverns"] . Selah["to lift up"] His glory covered the heavens, And the earth was full of His praise. 4 [His] brightness was like the light; He had rays [flashing] from His hand, And there His power [was] hidden.

Isaiah 48:7 Thus says the LORD, The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also shall worship, Because of the LORD who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel; And He has chosen You."

Isaiah 41:13 For I, the LORD your God, will hold your right hand, Saying to you, 'Fear not, I will help you.' 14 " Fear not, you worm Jacob, You men of Israel! I will help you," says the LORD And your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 55:4 Indeed I have given him [as] a witness to the people, A leader and commander for the people. 5 Surely you shall call a nation you do not know, And nations [who] do not know you shall run to you, Because of the LORD your God, And the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you."

Acts 3:14 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,