Can a Roman Catholic priest forgive sins?

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholics, go to confession and the priest forgives their sins. The Bible makes it is clear that no man can forgive sins, or remit sins. Why do Roman Catholics prefer to follow this tradition, rather than the Word of God?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Twilly Spree]

I've always considered it a way to openly confess you sins and seek forgiveness from God for them. It's a time to reflect on what you have done and own up to it. Then after reflect on what you can do to stop. We don't think that the priest forgives our sins, only God can do that.

[spl_cadet]

Roman Catholics, go to confession and the priest forgives their sins. The Bible makes it is clear that no man can forgive sins, or remit sins. Why do Roman Catholics prefer to follow this tradition, rather than the Word of God?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

John 20:22-23
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

[Twilly Spree]

Thanks cadet!

[Jude3b]

Dear Roman Catholics reading this post:
Catholicism orders its members to confess their sins to a man, but the Bible reveals that those who have been born into God's family can go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins:
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin." (Psalm 32:5).
Here is why true Christians have access to God's throne:
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." (Hebrews 10:19) Because of the sinless blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross, we have the authority to go straight to the throne of God for forgiveness.
Roman Catholics, what about you? Where will you go to have your sins forgiven? To a sinful priest, as the man-made traditions of the Roman Catholic religion demand? Or will you go straight to God Almighty, as the Bible teaches?
I love you all, Sincerely, Jude 3b

[rocketman]

I will go straight to God...who is acting through the priest. :whistle:

[Centurion]

:pray:

I believe that, we as humans can be compassionate towards men, but the complete and wholly purification and forgiveness of sin can only come from Christ.

Now, I see nothing wrong with confession, for we all need someone to spill our guts to at one time or another, but when a priest passes out some work for a sinner to complete in order to recieve forgiveness is just Biblically wrong. For we are saved by grace not by works. I think that priest can offer consolement as well as advice but that final attonement comes from Christ. Many times I've noticed that the Catholic confessional often introduces the concept that a person can sin, ask forgiveness, then go back and sin again. This is also wrong, we as Chrisitians are to try our hardest to not sin, for to sin ask forgiveness, sin again purposely because you know that Christ will forgive, then a person is not only abusing God's infinite grace, but at that point there is now sincerity or sorrow in the repentance, and there fore it is all for naught. God reads the mind, and knows your heart.

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholicism teaches that the priest is a mediator between God and man. (Catechism pg. 365, #1456). But the Bible recognizes only one mediator: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Tim. 2:5).
Where will you go my dear Roman Catholic friends? To a sinful priest, as the man-made traditions of the Catholic church demand? Or will you go straight to God Almighty, as the Bible teaches?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Twilly Spree]

Anyone can say in private "oh yeah by the way, I sinned" Confession is that extra step. To openly admit it to someone that has devoted their whole life to Jesus. That takes some guts, let me tell you!

It also goes on later in that passage to say all women should be quiet and humble. And can never be better than their husbands. Hm, just something to think about.

[Jude3b]

Dear Twilly Spree: So, are you saying that the Bible is not true, that it is wrong and that Jesus Christ is not the only mediator between God and man?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[Twilly Spree]

No I just found it interesting is all. A side note while reading. Being a chick, I just thought about it is all. Totally off topic I know.

[Rahab]

Jude3b.... the image of a priest in the confessional "absoluting" the confessed sins of a believer is a bit out of reality nowadays. Priests are now equipped to help out folks who share struggles. " confess your sins to one another so that you may be healed over them " seems to point us, believers in Christ, to the direction of seeking counsel from one another. It also promotes accountability.

An efficient priest is going to do more than communicate to the believer reassurance that his or her sins have been forgiven by God. ( I do not remember in my catholic years confessing to a priest who ever told me " I forgive you".... " I forgive you in the Name of The Father " is more accurate......formula also used for baptism.. " I baptize you in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit") He will also equipp those believers with Biblical counseling to encourage them in the right direction.

I personaly have no problems with confession to ANY other christian brother or sister as long as the believer knows that the forgiveness in act of God only.

[NoeticPenguin]

Roman Catholicism teaches that the priest is a mediator between God and man. (Catechism pg. 365, #1456). But the Bible recognizes only one mediator: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Tim. 2:5).


It is my understanding that the RCC teaches that a priest is "as Christ" when preforming the sacraments. (it should be noted that I am *not* catholic, and I'm going off of *my reading* of the Catechism) Hence, when one confesses --a practice that is long recognized as a spiritual discipline by famous protestants such as Bonehoeffer-- and recieves absolution (which is the word used, and a differernt concept than forgiveness) one is recieving absolution from Christ.

It should be noted here that forgiveness comes from Christ, but Absolution from the priest. Perhaps then you might want to re-think your initial suppositions and re-ask your question.


Where will you go my dear Roman Catholic friends? To a sinful priest, as the man-made traditions of the Catholic church demand? Or will you go straight to God Almighty, as the Bible teaches?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

If one confesses to a "sinful priest" what is the sin committed?

(BTW, the concept of questioning the spiritual health of a priest is an old heresy known as Donatism)

-Pkj.

[Rahab]

No I just found it interesting is all. A side note while reading. Being a chick, I just thought about it is all. Totally off topic I know.
Hey Tweely Spree.....actualy not off topic because you placed that verse in the context of the entire chapter. Which is important.
I must echo your sentiment as an ex catholic that I was never taught that the priest is the one who forgives me. And it definitly takes some "guts" to share with someone who holds the position of minister of God in a church all the nasty thingies we have been up to......and is it not encouraging to know that this minister will appreciate our willingness to "spill our guts"? to hear words like " my child... God forgives you". Most evangelical or protestant ministers will not use the word "child" but rather " beloved". Both however reflect the particular affection of a Father for His Children.

I grew up with conservative catholicism in France. I must admit that I miss the personal interaction a priest has with his sheep. It was a time when the priest would officiate for as long as he lived and was there for any important event in the life of a catholic. Would baptize you, marry you and baptize your children. Some lived so long that they even gave the Last Sacrament to the one they had baptized. People do not migrate to other parts of the country in France as they do in the US. Your priest was your priest for a long time. He became family. Made sick calls to your home. Crisis calls. He was never alone for Christmas as parishioners would always invite him for a planturous meal and would never frown on a glass of wine.........or a few sips of brandy to digest all that culinary abundance. I make that remark as I remember an old Southern Baptist minister who pushed his plate away after I shared with his wife my recipe for chicken cooked in a wine sauce..... no matter that alcohol evaporates while being cooked.
So would I confess my sins to a priest today if my heart weighs so heavy that I need to express them also to a human being? certainly. I make no difference as long as he is a brother in Christ.

[Twilly Spree]

Thanks for understanding Rahab! I also kinda felt it was important to mention the rest of that chapter, I just couldn't really find a reason behind it. Just felt like it. Weird I know, but that's me.

Also this idea that we are forgiven really through God and we just happen to be in front of a priest can be shown through the Act of Contrition. The prayer is recited before you begin to confess your sins. It can vary on the exact wording but it goes something like this:

My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Our Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us. In his name, my God, have mercy.


Yeah there would be nothing about a priest forgiving my sins in there.

[Rahab]

Thanks for understanding Rahab! I also kinda felt it was important to mention the rest of that chapter, I just couldn't really find a reason behind it. Just felt like it. Weird I know, but that's me.

Also this idea that we are forgiven really through God and we just happen to be in front of a priest can be shown through the Act of Contrition. The prayer is recited before you begin to confess your sins. It can vary on the exact wording but it goes something like this:

My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Our Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us. In his name, my God, have mercy.


Yeah there would be nothing about a priest forgiving my sins in there.
Bonjour Twilly..... you are welcome. The fact that I am an ex catholic does not prevent me from acknowledging the nurturing aspects of catholic faith.
Can you clarify what "doing penance " means? I understand it to be some type of " self punishing" act. That would be the only point in the prayer where I would feel that God is not requiring of me to suffer for my sin as He forgave me. But maybe I am misunderstanding the word.

[elysian]

James 5:16 (NIV)
"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

This reinforces the idea of accountability- not necessarily to a priest but to at least one other Christian believer. Only Jesus forgives sins but we are called to pray for each other, encourage each other, and hold each other accountable.

Matthew 16:19 (NIV)
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

This verse speaks of the "office of the Keys"- that is the authority that Christian believers have through Christ- to forgive others. (Protestants believe in the priesthood of all believers, not just of clergy.) Yet this forgiveness is from, of and because of Christ- we who confess our sins and seek His forgiveness will be forgiven. We are forgiven by Jesus and it isn't necessary to go to a third party to be forgiven, however as James teaches us, when we do confess our sins to other believers we give them the opportunity to pray for us, to encourage us and hold us accountable.

[Twilly Spree]

no problema, if you're all curious here is a link to the entire section on confession in the catechism: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.htm#v

1460
The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."

That would be penance for you, penance after confession. Also here's another interesting thing to note (pay attention Jude!):

1441
Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name

[Jude3b]

Ladies: "there is (only) one God, and (only) one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Timothy 2:5).
A priest cannot forgive sins.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[John Reece]

Ladies: "there is (only) one God, and (only) one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Timothy 2:5).
A priest cannot forgive sins.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

John 20

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld." (ESV)


I would like to hear from Catholics whether or not the following comment by F. F. Bruce in The Gospel of John is essentially in accord with Catholic belief and practice. If there is essential difference between the commentary below and Catholic doctrine, could you please specify the difference?


In the proclamation of the gospel remission of sins is assured to believers, with the corollary of retention of sins to unbelievers (cf. John 9:41, 'your sin remains'). The language is not unlike that of the twofold commission of Matt. 16:19 and 18:18, 'retaining' and 'loosing'; 'remitting' corresponding respectively to 'binding' and 'loosing'; indeed, a common Semitic original has been suggested for both sayings, along the lines of Isa. 22:22 (cf. Rev. 3:7).19 But whereas the Matthean contexts point to an interpretation in terms of church discipline, the present context is related to the disciples' mission in the world. The two passives - 'they are remitted' and 'they are retained' - imply divine agency: the preachers' role is declaratory, but it is God who effectively remits or retains. The servants of Christ are given no authority independent of his, nor is any assurance of infallibility given to them. 'It is only the interpretation of the promise as a guarantee against error that is wrong. A certainly that the Holy Spirit will sustain the Church in responsible action as it cleaves to God in Christ is the certainty that the Church needs and on which it can rely.'20

19. See J. A. Emerton, 'Binding and Loosing - Forgiving and retaining', JTS, n.s. 13 (1962), pp. 325-331

20. H. Cunliffe-Jones, 'Two Questions Concerning the Holy Spirit, Theology 75 (1972), p. 289.

[Centurion]

It seems to me that all of us, including myself, agree that while it is great to have accountibility with others, only Christ, not a priest can dole out forgiveness.

(If "dole" seems too strong a word I'm sorry, it was the first word to come to my head.)

[rocketman]

Looks good to me John. I think Bruce put it fairly well.

[John Reece]

Looks good to me John. I think Bruce put it fairly well.

Thanks for the reply, rocketman.

Would I be accurate to surmise that you are a Roman Catholic (or, like me, merely an admirer of Catholics, such as GKC)?

[rocketman]

both Roman Catholic and admirer of GKC! (who did become Catholic...it was CS Lewis who only admired but did not take the plunge)

[John Reece]

both Roman Catholic and admirer of GKC! (who did become Catholic...it was CS Lewis who only admired but did not take the plunge)

:thumb:

[Centurion]

Excuse me, John and Rocketman, but if I sin horribly against you, and am indeed humbly, and heartfully sorry, and I request your forgiveness and you don't give it, then am I going to hell? Even though Christ has forgiven me of my sin, am I going to Hell, because you, a man, has refused to forgive me and therfore passed judgement upon my soul? Are you giving yourself God's job? Sorry but this seems to be the way you are interpreting this scripture.

John 20

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[Twilly Spree]

Ladies: "there is (only) one God, and (only) one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Timothy 2:5).
A priest cannot forgive sins.

Dude Jude, did you miss my quote out of the catechism? Here it is again, now read it carefully. This is what catholic doctrine says:

1441
Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name

[Jude3b]

"ONLY PRIESTS WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE FACULTY OF ABSOLVING FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH CAN FORGIVE SINS IN THE NAME OF CHRIST." (The Roman Catholic Catechism, Page 374, #1495 - see also Page 364 # 1448).

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)

Roman Catholicism teaches that the priest is a mediator between God and man (The Catechism page 365, #1456)
But the Bible recognizes only one mediator:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Timothy 2:5)

WHAT ABOUT YOU ROMAN CATHOLICS? Where will you go to have your sins forgiven? To a sinful priest, as the man-made traditions of the Roman Catholic religion demand? Or will you go straight to God Almighty, as the Bible teaches?

"Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD, Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications. If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared." (Psalm 130:1-4)

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[John Reece]

Excuse me, John and Rocketman, but if I sin horribly against you, and am indeed humbly, and heartfully sorry, and I request your forgiveness and you don't give it, then am I going to hell? Even though Christ has forgiven me of my sin, am I going to Hell, because you, a man, has refused to forgive me and therfore passed judgement upon my soul? Are you giving yourself God's job? Sorry but this seems to be the way you are interpreting this scripture.

No, that is the way you are distorting the following (which I repeat from post #20 above, since you have not yet grasped what it actually says):


John 20

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld." (ESV)

From F. F. Bruce in The Gospel of John


In the proclamation of the gospel remission of sins is assured to believers, with the corollary of retention of sins to unbelievers (cf. John 9:41, 'your sin remains'). The language is not unlike that of the twofold commission of Matt. 16:19 and 18:18, 'retaining' and 'loosing'; 'remitting' corresponding respectively to 'binding' and 'loosing'; indeed, a common Semitic original has been suggested for both sayings, along the lines of Isa. 22:22 (cf. Rev. 3:7).19 But whereas the Matthean contexts point to an interpretation in terms of church discipline, the present context is related to the disciples' mission in the world. The two passives - 'they are remitted' and 'they are retained' - imply divine agency: the preachers' role is declaratory, but it is God who effectively remits or retains. The servants of Christ are given no authority independent of his, nor is any assurance of infallibility given to them. 'It is only the interpretation of the promise as a guarantee against error that is wrong. A certainly that the Holy Spirit will sustain the Church in responsible action as it cleaves to God in Christ is the certainty that the Church needs and on which it can rely.'20

19. See J. A. Emerton, 'Binding and Loosing - Forgiving and retaining', JTS, n.s. 13 (1962), pp. 325-331

20. H. Cunliffe-Jones, 'Two Questions Concerning the Holy Spirit, Theology 75 (1972), p. 289.

[Centurion]

I may be interpreting the way "you" say, but in what way are you? You didn't say anything about that. How does it prove that Catholic priests have the power to forgive people of sin?

[mickiel]

I have personally been in christian churches that made pregnant women get in front of the congregation and ask for figiveness for getting pregnant. How is that any different than a chatholic preist? It worse. At least the person in the catholic church has the privacy of the booth.

[John Reece]

I may be interpreting the way "you" say, but in what way are you? You didn't say anything about that. How does it prove that Catholic priests have the power to forgive people of sin?

I presented NO interpretation of my own. The quote from F. F. Bruce was presented to Catholics with a question to Catholics about how their perspective compaired to that of F. F. Bruce.

Here is a verbatum quote of my question: "I would like to hear from Catholics whether or not the following comment by F. F. Bruce (in his commentary, The Gospel of John) is essentially in accord with Catholic belief and practice. If there is essential difference between the commentary below and Catholic doctrine, could you please specify the difference?"

There is no basis for a response challenging my interpretation, because I did not present any interpretation; rather, I quoted Bruce in order to inquire if Catholics agree or disagree with his comment:


In the proclamation of the gospel remission of sins is assured to believers, with the corollary of retention of sins to unbelievers (cf. John 9:41, 'your sin remains'). The language is not unlike that of the twofold commission of Matt. 16:19 and 18:18, 'retaining' and 'loosing'; 'remitting' corresponding respectively to 'binding' and 'loosing'; indeed, a common Semitic original has been suggested for both sayings, along the lines of Isa. 22:22 (cf. Rev. 3:7). But whereas the Matthean contexts point to an interpretation in terms of church discipline, the present context is related to the disciples' mission in the world. The two passives - 'they are remitted' and 'they are retained' - imply divine agency: the preachers' role is declaratory, but it is God who effectively remits or retains. The servants of Christ are given no authority independent of his, nor is any assurance of infallibility given to them. 'It is only the interpretation of the promise as a guarantee against error that is wrong. A certainly that the Holy Spirit will sustain the Church in responsible action as it cleaves to God in Christ is the certainty that the Church needs and on which it can rely.'

[elysian]

I have personally been in christian churches that made pregnant women get in front of the congregation and ask for figiveness for getting pregnant. How is that any different than a chatholic preist? It worse. At least the person in the catholic church has the privacy of the booth.

Pregnancy is NOT a sin. What kind of bizarre dog and pony show were you attending?

[Twilly Spree]

I have personally been in christian churches that made pregnant women get in front of the congregation and ask for figiveness for getting pregnant. How is that any different than a chatholic preist? It worse. At least the person in the catholic church has the privacy of the booth.

Firstly, woah that's really terrible. Second, a Catholic reconciliation can be in no way compared to standing in front of the entire congregation.

[Jude3b]

There is no New Testament authority for a Human priesthood. With the coming of Christ and the accomplishment of redemption through His work, the entire Old Testament legalistic and ritualistic system which had prefigured it became obsolete and passed away. Therefore the Roman Catholic priest cannot and does not have Biblical authority to forgive sins.
Sincerely, Jude 3b

[mickiel]

Firstly, woah that's really terrible. Second, a Catholic reconciliation can be in no way compared to standing in front of the entire congregation.



Your right, its worse to stand in front of a congregation. I just do not like hippocrisy. A christian poster will occasionally harp on another religons faults as if christianity has none. Classic hippocrisy.

[mickiel]

Pregnancy is NOT a sin. What kind of bizarre dog and pony show were you attending?




Well I consider most christian churchs bizarre, but we must assume the woman was not married. I don't think christian churchs chasetize married women for pregancy, even christians are not that crazy.

[Jude3b]

The question is can a Roman Catholic priest forgive sins?

[Twilly Spree]

I'm gonna post this again, straight for the catechism here chief:

1441
Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.

I think that about sums it up.

[Benedict]

Now, I see nothing wrong with confession, for we all need someone to spill our guts to at one time or another, but when a priest passes out some work for a sinner to complete in order to recieve forgiveness is just Biblically wrong.

No one is required to perform the penance.

[Twilly Spree]

Here's how I think of it. When you're a kid you do something bad and you're mom sends you to your room to "think about" what you've done. Now you can listen to your mom and actually think about it or you can go sit in your room and think about whatever. A priest gives you a penance, usually say some prayers, where you can reflect on the sins you've committed, how to stop from sinning, etc. Or you can just leave immediately. So it's your choice. The priest doesn't hover over you and say "you thinking about? How about now? Now?"

[Benedict]

That conjures the image of the Verizon guy.

"You feel sorry now? Good."

[Jude3b]

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim 2:5)

[spl_cadet]

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim 2:5)

John 20:21-23
Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[John Reece]

John 20:21-23
Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

:thumb:

*I try to not miss opportunities to affirm scripture in fellowship with my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.

[Centurion]

The forgiveness of a human on Earth is NOT salvation, nor is it heavenly grace or forgiveness. It does not matter if a human chooses to forgive or not, I am saved, I am forgiven, I have Christ in my heart and in my life, and as such am garuanteed my place in heaven.

[Jude3b]

Here is why true Christians have access to God's throne:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." (Hebrews 10:19).
Because of the sinless blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross, we have the authority to go straight to the throne of God for forgiveness.

The example of Peter (Rome's supposed first pope):
In the book of Acts, a man named Simon came to Peter (the alleged first pope of Romanism), wanting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. How did Peter respond to this sin? Did he suggest that Simon make a confession to him right there? No, Peter told him to repent and confess his sin to God and ask God to forgive him. (See Acts. 8:18-22).
What should we do, to have our sins forgiven? Go to a sinful priest, as the man-made traditions of the Roman Catholic religion demand? Or should we go straight to God Almighty, as the Bible teaches?

[Twilly Spree]

Haven't we gone over this "sinful priest" bit before? Or is it just me?

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholic doctrine opposes God's Word:
"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? (Mark 2:7)

[Christy]

okay, I don't go to a Catholic Church, but Jesus gave his apostles the ability to forgive sins. I don't know. It's all very confusing :blush: I am not saying that it is confusing to be mean or anything.

[Christy]

Okay, I just read what others put in the post, so now I'm not confused about it. :teeth:

[Jude3b]

Dear Christy don't be confused. Roman Catholicism orders its members to confess their sins to a man (a sinful priest), but the Bible reveals that those who have been born into God's family go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins:
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions UNTO THE LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin." (Psalm 32:5).

[spl_cadet]

Dear Christy don't be confused. Roman Catholicism orders its members to confess their sins to a man (a sinful priest), but the Bible reveals that those who have been born into God's family go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins:
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions UNTO THE LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin." (Psalm 32:5).

And Christ gave sinful apostles the ability to forgive sins. What's your point?

[Centurion]

Humans can forgive, but only Christ has the ability to save and sanctify.

[Jude3b]

Dear Centurion: Thank you for that post. It is right on Brother!

Dear Christy: "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)

Sincerely yours in Christ, Jude 3b

[Twilly Spree]

okay, I don't go to a Catholic Church, but Jesus gave his apostles the ability to forgive sins. I don't know. It's all very confusing :blush: I am not saying that it is confusing to be mean or anything.

Hey it's cool. Catholicism can be very confusing for someone that knows nothing about it. I guess if you want to learn more don't be afraid to ask Catholics questions. Most are eager to explain it to you. They won't try to convert you or anything, so don't worry. If you have any questions feel free to pm me and I'll help you out. I'm the only Catholic in my Bible study, I'm used to answering questions about the faith. :teeth:

[spl_cadet]

They won't try to convert you or anything, so don't worry.

Well, Jehovah's Witness or Mormon style, we won't. But we will show the you the truth of Catholicism and hope you come to it :teeth:

[Twilly Spree]

I really don't feel the need to bring people to Catholicism as long as they're good Christian folk. But if you happen to find Catholicism kick butt, I can't help that. :wink:

[spl_cadet]

I really don't feel the need to bring people to Catholicism as long as they're good Christian folk. But if you happen to find Catholicism kick butt, I can't help that. :wink:

Same here, I don't go out and actively try to convert other Christians (though I tease a Baptist friend of mine about it), but if they see the truth of Catholicism, I'll do my best to bring them across the Tiber.

[Jude3b]

If they read their Bible, they will quickly discover that Romanism doesn't have the truth. Its a bunch of stuff made up by man and not from the Word of God!

[BlackOpal12]

If they read their Bible, they will quickly discover that Romanism doesn't have the truth. Its a bunch of stuff made up by man and not from the Word of God!

Alright, dude... enough is enough.
The record has skipped and needs to be changed now.
You've said the same thing, Christ only knows how many times.
We heard you, okay?

The Catholics hand you the modern Catechism, which is IN CONCURRENCE with what you keep tirading about, and you spit back an outdated version that has been replaced with what they are telling you.

Are you not reading the posts?
I don't understand what your issue is.
Even when they concur with you, you have to make a huge freaking deal out of it.
Where is Christian love here, jude3b?
What is your problem? You've made your points again and again and again and again and again.
Your points have been answered again and again and again and again and again, but still you beat that harp against the brick wall in front of you, convinced that slamming it until no-one else can stand the racket is a good way to make beautiful music.

...Are you by any chance related to Asiety?

[spl_cadet]

If they read their Bible, they will quickly discover that Romanism doesn't have the truth. Its a bunch of stuff made up by man and not from the Word of God!


Mmm, potatoes :duh:

[Twilly Spree]

:banana:

Look a dancing banana!

Thanks for the support Black Opal :teeth:

[Jude3b]

God's unchanging Word has always been the final authority, never the traditions of religionists:
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Col. 2:8)
Millions of Roman Catholics blindly file into confessional booths, believing that the priest has the power to forgive sins. What about you? Where will you go to have your sins forgiven? To a sinful priest, as the man-made traditions of the Roman Catholic Church demand? Or will you go to God Almighty? "Who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)

[Centurion]

:pray: GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!

[Centurion]

:pray: GOD ALLMIGHTY!!!

[Jude3b]

Before you confess to a sinful priest consider that the Word says: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." (Hebrews 10:19)

[Jude3b]

Before you confess to a sinful priest consider that the Word says: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." (Hebrews 10:19)

David was a good example for us: He prayed, "Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me." (Psalm 51:2-3)

[Bill S]

If one confesses to a "sinful priest" what is the sin committed?

(BTW, the concept of questioning the spiritual health of a priest is an old heresy known as Donatism)

-Pkj.

THE SIN IS THAT THE PRIEST DOES NOT BELIEVE THE GOSPEL

[elysian]

What is the Office of the Keys?
The Office of the Keys is that special authority which Christ has given to His church on earth to forgive the sins of repentant sinners, but to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant as long as they do not repent.

Where is this written?
This is what St. John the Evangelist writes in chapter twenty: The Lord Jesus breathed on His disciples and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven' (John 20:22-23).

What do you believe according to these words?
I believe that when the called ministers of Christ deal with us by His divine command, in particular when they exclude openly unrepentant sinners from the Christian congregation and absolve those who repent of their sins and want to do better, this is just as valid and certain, even in heaven, as if Christ our dear Lord dealt with us Himself.

- Luther's Small Catechism, on The Office of the Keys

We are only forgiven our sins and made clean by Christ's sacrifice and death on the Cross. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to believers, so that He can act through believers (and no, the believer needs not be an RCC priest) to forgive sins. But we are only forgiven and made clean by Jesus' sacrifice.

The act of confession holds us accountable, and also serves to convince us that we have been forgiven if we have truly repented. It is still God doing the forgiving.

:wink:

[Bill S]

(and no, the believer needs not be an RCC priest) to forgive sins.

>>>

Catholic Bishops and priests- Taken from Catholic Answers
writers, such as Origen (241), Cyprian (251), and Aphraates (337), are clear in saying confession is to be made to a priest. (In their writings the whole process of penance is termed exomologesis, which means confession—the confession was seen as the main part of the sacrament.) Cyprian writes that the forgiveness of sins can take place only "through the priests." Ambrose says "this right is given to priests only." Pope Leo I says absolution can be obtained only through the prayers of the priests. These utterances are not taken as novel, but as reminders of accepted belief.
(See the Catholic Answers tract Confession for full quotes from the early Church Fathers on the sacrament of penance.)

[elysian]

Scripture makes no such mandate- the "Office of the Keys" is for all followers of Christ. We have His authority to confess to one another, and to forgive one another by the power of the Holy Spirit, yet it is always by Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross that we are forgiven.

The RCC does not acknowledge the "priesthood of all believers." Their interpretation is that the priest is the only acceptable conduit through which forgiveness may be received.

(btw, Bill S.- I'm Lutheran although I was raised RCC- confession to other believers, especially a Pastor can be helpful, but not essential as it is Jesus Who does the forgiving. :wink: )

[Maxentius]

The RCC does not acknowledge the "priesthood of all believers." Their interpretation is that the priest is the only acceptable conduit through which forgiveness may be received.

I often find that the RCC will take a good, Scriptural idea--like confession--and make what ever they believe required, and then go too far. This is true of their old view of confession, i.e. that it is absolutely required.

To add to Elysian's statement (since we are both traditional Lutherans), the office of the keys is held by the congregation and Church at large. The Church or congregations calls individual men out of otself to administer the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion and to forgive sins "..in the stead and by the command of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ." The minister uses the office on behalf of the congregation, and this is actual power to forgive or retain sins.

So, can a Roman priest forgive sins? Yes he can. He is called out of the Church to administer the Sacraments and forgive sins on behalf of the Church, in the stead and by the command of his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (Elysian, see how liturgy actually teaches!) Can I do so? Not without a legitimate call, but I can announce the forgiveness of sins, but I cannot retain them or forgive them like a minister does.

[elysian]

(Elysian, see how liturgy actually teaches!)

Yes it most certainly does, and throughout history in times and places in which many Christians were not literate nor educated, much of their Christian education not only took place as a result of the liturgy but it was reinforced every week. A lack of literacy among the common people was also the likely reason why Martin Luther liked the Q&A type approach to teaching- it was easy to remember one's catechism taught in this way by memory and rote.

We still learn and retain information from the use of the liturgy. Being literate still helps though! :wink:

In the Order of Confession and Forgiveness at the beginning of any Lutheran liturgy we have the opportunity to corporately confess our sin as well as an opportunity to examine our hearts and confess in silent prayer and to receive absolution from sin through the presiding Pastor, who by his calling has been given the authority to forgive sins (by the Holy Spirit's power) because quite frankly, Jesus said so. Yet the forgiveness comes from Jesus by the Holy Spirit through the Pastor, not from the Pastor himself, which is an important distinction.

Lutherans however are not required to "go to Confession" or to enumerate every possible sin to a Pastor. It is recommended though, for us to be open and accountable with at least one other Christian on a regular basis, and to confess grave and serious sins that trouble our consciences to a Pastor privately (in addition to the corporate confession that takes place in liturgy.)

Many Lutherans (especially ex-Catholics) are weird about private confession- thinking private confession is a "Catholic thing" to be avoided, however most Pastors are quite open about it and are very willing to serve in that capacity should a person request it. It's part of their duty and calling.

[Jude3b]

David was a good example for us: He prayed, "Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me." (Psalm 51:2-3)

You see only God can forgive sins.

[Benedict]

John 20:20-22.

[Jude3b]

You see only God can forgive sins.

In the Gospel of John chapter 20:20-23 we find the one text that the Romanist will appeal to, in order to defend the false doctrine of the confessional.

An incontext careful reading of these passages will show that it is the disciples being commissioned and given the "power of attorney" - to do the works of Christ (see John 14:12 and Mt. 18:18).

The passage or message of John 20:20-23, is not a call to set up confessionals in the Roman Catholic church that would someday come into existence, but rather it is simply another form of expressing power to bind and to loose and to do the works of Christ. Amen.

[Benedict]

The confessional is not a doctrine, it is a discipline. Orthodox confess their sins in the open.

[VFarris01]

You see only God can forgive sins.
Absolutely!!!

In the Gospel of John chapter 20:20-23 we find the one text that the Romanist will appeal to, in order to defend the false doctrine of the confessional.True!!!


(20) After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side, and when they saw the Lord the disciples were overjoyed. (21) Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. Just as the Father has sent me, so I am sending you." (22) When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. (23) If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people's sins, they are retained."

Sorry Benedict, these guys are not around anymore. Neither do they have "successors."

An incontext careful reading of these passages will show that it is the disciples being commissioned and given the "power of attorney" - to do the works of Christ (see John 14:12 and Mt. 18:18).
Amen!!!

These guys are not around anymore. Neither do they have "successors."

The passage or message of John 20:20-23, is not a call to set up confessionals in the Roman Catholic church that would someday come into existence, but rather it is simply another form of expressing power to bind and to loose and to do the works of Christ.

(15) And the prayer offered in faith will save the person who is sick. The Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (16) Therefore, make it your habit to confess your sins to one another and to pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. (17) Elijah was a man just like us, and he prayed earnestly for it not to rain, and it did not rain on the ground for three years and six months. (18) Then he prayed again, and heaven sent rain, and the ground produced its crops. (19) My brothers, if one of you wanders away from the truth and somebody brings him back, (20) you may be sure that whoever brings a sinner back from his wrong path will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

A priest is not needed to confess sins.

Just pay your indulgence and your sins are forgiven.

[Benedict]

James 5:14 - Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord.

These guys are not around anymore. Neither do they have "successors."

Acts 1:20 - For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.'

Matthias was the first and only successor to be a true Apostle.

Acts 14:23- Paul and Barnabas ordained elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

From then on, the Apostles appointed elders (presbyters) to carry on their mission in the various churches.

[Jude3b]

James 5:14 - Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord.



Acts 1:20 - For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.'

Matthias was the first and only successor to be a true Apostle.

Acts 14:23- Paul and Barnabas ordained elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

From then on, the Apostles appointed elders (presbyters) to carry on their mission in the various churches.


presbyters = elders

[BibleMan]

Roman Catholics, go to confession and the priest forgives their sins. The Bible makes it is clear that no man can forgive sins, or remit sins. Why do Roman Catholics prefer to follow this tradition, rather than the Word of God?
Sincerely, Jude 3b




I wouldn't think it would be a matter of preference, but rather that is all they know, having been taught that from childhood. People are creatures of habit.

[Joe Gofish]

Roman Catholics, go to confession and the priest forgives their sins. The Bible makes it is clear that no man can forgive sins, or remit sins. Why do Roman Catholics prefer to follow this tradition, rather than the Word of God?
Sincerely, Jude 3b

Jude AKA Jim Jones AKA David Koresh PLEASE READ YOUR BIBLE and get HELP to understand what you are Reading :
Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.