Preterism Summary

[Dee Dee Warren]

JP just wrote this brief introductory summary, the original can be found here:

http://www.tektonics.org/pretsum.html

What is Preterism?

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A Summary of the Panorama

James Patrick Holding

An interested reader asked us for a link to an article that summarized some of the main tenets of the eschatological position we hold here, which is called preterism. Neither I nor fellow preterist Tektonite Dee Dee Warren could recall ever seeing such a thing, so I've decided to make one of my own, putting together some broad strokes to whet the appetite for the larger articles here.

What is preterism? If I had to sum up in everyday language, I would define preterism as a belief that some substantial portion of Biblical prophecy now taken to refer to the "End Times" actually was fulfilled by 70 AD, coincident with the destruction of Jerusalem. The core proof point for us is that we take Jesus' warning of things taking place in "this generation" to clearly mean that they must take place within the next 40 years. Such time texts are a cornerstone for the preterist case.

What does this imply in terms of the future for us? It means, the popular understanding of a Rapture, a 7 year Tribulation, and an Antichrist figure are not in our future of necessity. If they are, it will be as a "double fulfillment" but is not necessary to fulfill Biblical prophecy. The chief preterist view holds that all that surely remains in our future is final resurrection and judgment.
Chief preterist view? Are there others? Yes, there is a view sometimes called full preterism (or by proponents, "consistent preterism") which holds that ALL Biblical prophecy is now fulfilled, including those that preterists of my school say refer to the final resurrection. This view is considered heretical by preterists of my school, who are often called "partial" preterists but are here called preterists.

So what about verses that refer to the Rapture? Preterists see those as references to the final resurrection, which is in our future still.

And verses that refer to the Tribulation? Preterists understand the Tribulation to have occured during (but not exhausting) the 7 year period to have been fulfilled in the Jewish War which lasted from 66-73 AD. The Trib does not take up the full 7 years but is centered on the years 67-70.

What about the Anti-christ, 666? We usually see Nero as having filled that slot, though I know others have suggested Titus, Vespasian, and others.

So what has been fulfilled and what hasn't? Preterists say that the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the Jewish War or in the time leading up to it, as was Daniel 9, and all of Revelation up until part of the last two chapters. According to preterists, we are NOW in the "millenium" of Rev. 20. What is past that, and the final resurrection (referred to in John 5, in 1 Corinthians and the Thessalonian correspondence, and elsewhere) is yet to come.
Is this some sort of weirdo view? If you consider R. C. Sproul a weirdo, I suppose it is. He is the most prominent proponent of the preterist view today. Gary DeMar is less prominent but has written much more on the subject.

What do people like Tim LaHaye think of preterism? From what I have read, they are fairly clueless about it. Most critics of preterism end up mixing up the orthodox version with the heretical version to some extent. Most though are just too caught up in a too-Western, too-literal interpretation of the Bible. I have found preterism to be far more consistent with a reading of the text that would have been understood by the people who wrote the Bible.

[John Reece]

I must say I don't like limiting labels.

But Preterist suits me fine.

:yipee:

[Dee Dee Warren]

Me too... :yipee: :yipee: It is one of the ones that I more comfortable with.

[John Reece]

For me, it's second only to Christian.

:smile:

[Hitch]

Its a strange word already widly used by the cultist, I still prefer Post Millennial.


H

[Dee Dee Warren]

But there are nonpreterist Postmills and "liberal" postmills. That does not solve the problem. I do not let a relatively recent band of heretics disuade me from a historically good title.

[efta777]

That's a pretty good summary of the view, and I should think it would be a good jumping off point in discussions. Hopefully some futurists will read it and come up with some questions based off it.

[spl_cadet]

Now I know what you guys are all talking about with. I still think it's bunk, but we won't know for sure until the end of the world (or we die, whichever comes first).

[Faramir]

03-14-2003 @ 03:02 PM
spl_cadet:

Now I know what you guys are all talking about with. I still think it's bunk, but we won't know for sure until the end of the world (or we die, whichever comes first).

That was my first reaction when I was introduced to preterism.

:yipee:

[Dee Dee Warren]

Me too. Actually "bunk" would have been kind of me.

[efta777]

Actually, preterism was only somewhat difficult for me. It came at me fast and hit me hard, and I had already denounced futurism, so it wasn't an incredibly difficult decision for me at first. However, discovering all the cool details about the Bible and its relationship with history and continuing proof of its innerancy is what really got me hooked on the whole concept.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I enjoyed being a futurist. The whole rapture thing was cool.

[John Reece]

The whole rapture thing was cool.

:smile:

[John Reece]

Hey, some quote window!

[Faramir]

Yeah, I kinda miss the rapture.

[efta777]

It was a nice dream... Too bad it couldn't last...
:bawl:

[Hitch]

I WISH WE'D ALL BEEN READY...

oooops I thought you said 'missed it',, nevermind.

[spl_cadet]

Yesterday @ 03:28 PM
Dee Dee Warren:
I enjoyed being a futurist. The whole rapture thing was cool.

Well, I don't believe in the rapture either. What's up with all the different millenials and futerism and stuff? There's about half a dozen different views and I have not a clue what they mean or which one corresponds to what I believe.

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 11:45 PM
spl_cadet:



Well, I don't believe in the rapture either. What's up with all the different millenials and futerism and stuff? There's about half a dozen different views and I have not a clue what they mean or which one corresponds to what I believe.
Well ,,start from the biggest divisions and work toward the smaller.


Millennialism(s)

Really there are only two.


PRE Mil and A Mil

PRE Mil s believe in an earthly/bodily rule by Christ of one thousand years, or so. This includes all DF variations and the SDA as well.

A Mil s reject the physical nature ,ie Christ 's bodily presence, during the Millennium therefore POST Mill is a branch of this group. This includes many Reformed Churches and practically all preterists. Im not certain of the RCC.

Israel;


Typically the DFs, and X9s mark a stark distinction between Israel and the Church and expect as part of the Millenium a resurgency of Israel as a world leading power, in various aspects, including the spiritual and he economic and even the military. Of course there are many variations.


Historics often mark this distinction as well ,usually with less emphasis. They place less emphasis on most eschatological then the DFs.


A mils see the Church as the modern incorporation of Israel , the church as the recipient of most or all the various promises .coventants etc. This is typically stressed in the PM camp.

Kingdom;

Historics and some DFs view the church today as the increasing Kingdom of God while at the same time they view the Millennium as the culmination of that Kingdom, Christ's bodily presence and direct enforcement a primary vision of the Prophets.

X9s and some DFs hold that the Kindom is not a current reality and not directly related to the church. They teach a rejected 'Kingdom offer' ,follwed by an unprophecied 'church age' which in turn is followed by the 'Kingdom', or Millennium, Strictly defined by Christ's bodily presence.

A mils see in the church the entire Kingdom of God as it exist in history. PMs take this view to the extent of a future conversion of the majority.

Great Tribulation

The PMs and preterists view this strictly as a past event. Prophecied for and during the first century.


The DFs ,X9s and some A mils hold this to be a future event. the DFs usually hold the 'rapture will mark the beginning of the great tribulation, whils some groups see the 'rapture' as ending it, The former is th emajorty view and it is the view taught at DTS for nearly 80 years.This include the 'Christ could return any moment ' teaching. While thoe others require varying degrees of prophetic fulfillment during the 'church age'. Im not sure of teh X9 position here.

Rapture

A mils and PMs reject any 'rapture' teaching that includes the progression of history following the event. Many hold to a physical 'catching up' but in contrast to DFs, at the end of history.

DFs and X9s place a heavy emphasis on the 'rapture' as an event of the end times but with history continuing afterword. Most DFs see the 'rapture' as the next larges scale item on the calander while ,as stated above, some believe the great tribulation will be endured by the chrurch. Im not sure of the Historic's view here.

Incomplete ,but its just supposed to be an outline, and Im sure more basic than you required. Fear not! The holders of the various view will correct any mistakes I've made.

take care

Hitch

[Dee Dee Warren]

Ah, Cadet's is becoming interested in the preterist bunk ;) Just kidding my friend. You are doing awesome in the Religion 101 threads, keep up the good work.

[SynchroKnight]

I have a question, what's the breakdown between preterists and futurists in Christianity (numbers wise)? How many Christians (roughly) would call themselves 'preterists'?

Frankly, I didn't even know there was such a thing as preterism until fairly recently. The only book I've been able to get on the subject was End Times Fiction by Gary Demar (though that was in a secular bookstore).

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear SK:

Hmm, I would not know a very accurate demographic breakdown.. but preterism is a very minority position in Christendom today though it enjoyed much greater popularity at certain periods in the past. It has always been held by a respectable number of scholars throughout church history.

End Times Fiction is a great introductory book though DeMar's Last Days Madness is much more comprehensive.

[SynchroKnight]

Thanks Dee Dee, your answer at least gives me an idea of the relative sizes of the two camps.

If I may be allowed a follow-up...

Some of the posters, yourself included, indicated they once held the futurist position. How hard was it to go from the majority to the minority position?

Some of the attitudes I've run across in Christian media lead me to believe that anyone doubting the Lindsey, Lahaye, Van Impe line would face some stern rebukes from other Christians. (If not outright questioning of their salvation)

I'll be on the look-out for the other Demar book. thanks

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear SK:

For me it was very difficult to switch points of view for many reasons a lot of which are difficult to exactly pin down. I do face incredulity from some other Christians about my position, but I very rarely have my salvation questioned but it has happened on rare occasion. But in the "real" world, I am not as vocal about my views as I am in the cyber world. I do not make an issue out of it, and I would say that very people in my "real" world life even know I am a preterist. I could count them on one hand.

[SynchroKnight]

Thanks again Dee Dee.

Your response helped me to put things into a little better perspective.


Well I've intruded enough. :smile:

You may now continue with the thread already in progress... :wink:

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear SK:

Hey no problem!! If you ever have any other just Q&A type inquires, feel free to post a thread in the Liberal Arts section. That is a nondebate section of TWeb made perfectly for stuff like that.

[adam.naranjo]

First of all, regarding the question about how many people in the church hold to preterism vs futurism:

I don't know, BUT, I know that preterism is extremely on the rise right now. I don't think that DF will last another 50 years.
And I can also tell you that the fathers of church history were (for the most part) NOT PreMill. (No matter what the DF's tell you -- but thats another debate [that i'm willing to partake in]) on preterist archives you can read commentary by many of the early church fatehrs on matt 24, luke 21 and mark 13, and the vast majority of them hold that the Tribulation already to place...I had fun reading all of those commentaries...

At a certain point (after becoming theologically jaded by Dispensationalism of all kinds -- progressive, acts 2, paulin, acts 9, acts13-19, acts 28...Yes those are ALL types of DF) I decided to take a look at the other side of the issue. It all started when I downloaded an MP3 by a postmillennialist teacher. I downloaded it as a joke, I just want to hear how crazy it sounded. Unfortunately for me it was the most well developed argumentation I had ever heard in such a short time frame, and covering so many issues. After listening to the 3 part series, I was dumbfounded. I had no Idea why I had never noticed these simple things before. So, I decided to buy "the last days according to Jesus", by R.C. Sproul, "New covenant theology", by Moo and someone else, "Amillennialism" by Cox, "Dispensationalism: rightly dividing the people of God", by Mathison, and "Postmillennialism: an eschatology of hope" by Mathison. I also read online, listened to tapes (kenneth gentry) and whatched some of the most amazing debates EVER with Tommy Ice vs Gentry and DeMar -- two different debates.
Anywa, I was blown away. Tommy Ice, the MAJOR acts 2 dispensationalist in the world was just slaughterd by Gary DeMar (of http://www.americanvision.com )

I was amazed at the consistancy and the Biblical honesty with which these teachers approached their theology. I was most amazed to find that, in fact, these men were the real 'literal-interpreters' of scripture. I was amazed to find that the history of the church supports their vew many times over Premillennialism or CERTAINLY dispensationalim -- particulalry pre wrath RAPTURE theology. I was amazed to find that liberals were not responsible for non-dispensational views -- as I was taught. I was suprised to find that the catholic church had nothing to do with non-dispensational viewsl. I was suprised all over the place.

I have embraced a covenantly framwork. I'm convinced of postmill view. Although, I will leave open the option of optomistic amillennialism. I am an orthodox preterist.

Thanks be to God, who leads (those who are willing to be lead) out of darkenss, and into light.

Adam.Naranjo

[Dee Dee Warren]

:thumb:

[anthrogirl]

What does "DF" mean?
What is Dispensationalism?
What is futurism?
What does "X9" mean?
What does "Postmill" mean?
What makes someone a "heretic"?

thanks!
ag

[studyhound]

What does "DF" mean?
Dispensational futurists


What is Dispensationalism?
This is a system that views God working in the world through “dispensations” or administrations that God gives man to works in.


What is futurism?
Futurism is the view that hold all or most of the eschatological prophecies are in the future.

What does "X9" mean?
Acts 9 dispensationalism, a variation of dispensationalism, they
Hold that the church started in acts nine when Paul was converted

What does "Postmill" mean?
That is Postmillennial, this term is about when the return of Christ, i.e. at the end of the Millennium

What makes someone a "heretic"?
In eschatology, the denial of the future resurrection of the beliver.


thanks!
ag

:sh:

[anthrogirl]

This is a system that views God working in the world through “dispensations” or administrations that God gives man to works in.
huh? what do you mean by "administrations that God gives man to works in"?



Futurism is the view that hold all or most of the eschatological prophecies are in the future.
that makes sense...


Acts 9 dispensationalism, a variation of dispensationalism, they
Hold that the church started in acts nine when Paul was converted
wish i understood what "dispensationalism" is...


That is Postmillennial, this term is about when the return of Christ, i.e. at the end of the Millennium
which millennium?


In eschatology, the denial of the future resurrection of the beliver.
you mean, the resurrection of dead believers since the beginning of the church into Heaven?

thanks for your patience,
ag

[studyhound]

huh? what do you mean by "administrations that God gives man to works in"?
Ok here is a better def (I hope)

Dispensationalism - A system of theology that recognizes different stewardships of man under God. Sees God working with man differently during different periods, such as Law vs. Grace, or the garden vs. the postnoahic age, etc. Dispensationalism's key teachings are 1.) a consistent literal interpretation of the Bible; 2.) a clear distinction between Israel and the Church, and 3.) the glory of God as the ultimate purpose in the plan of God. (not necessarily the salvation of man)

Better?



which millennium?

Sorry The millennium, in Revelation 20, the Millennium that Christ rules in.



you mean, the resurrection of dead believers since the beginning of the church into Heaven?

Well all believers from all time, i.e. from Adam till the end.

[/quote]thanks for your patience,
ag[/QUOTE]
You bet.

:sh:

[anthrogirl]

thanks amigo!

ag

[Amazing Rando]

Dear SK:

Hey no problem!! If you ever have any other just Q&A type inquires, feel free to post a thread in the Liberal Arts section. That is a nondebate section of TWeb made perfectly for stuff like that.

:lmbo: The Liberal Arts section? :rofl:

DDW is a dinosaur! :wink:

[Dee Dee Warren]

That is an ancient post

[Tim C.]

What is Dispensationalism?Here is a "nutshell" description I gave awhile back.

"A dispensationalist carefully discerns the different "ages" (or "dispensations") in Scripture, then formats his theology around an understanding of the ages. Sounds complex...... but its actually quite simple.

The Bible outlines three of these "dispensations" which are very important to a person who wishes to understand what is going on, and why.

First of all, the Bible outlines an age for Israel under the Law (Old Covenant). That age extends from the time of Moses through to the return of the Lord and establishing of the kingdom. The events of that age are prophetically outlined in Daniel 2, 7 and 9.

Second, the Bible outlines an age for Israel under New Covenant blessings, and that age will also be the time in which the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are fulfilled to Israel. It is the "kingdom age" or "millennium." It extends from the close of the Mosaic/Old Covenant age and return of the Lord through to the final judgement, and is prophetically outlined in Revelation 20.

So, note this: we have the Mosaic age, and then the kingdom age follows the Mosaic age.

Third, the Bible reveals a special age which interrupts the Mosaic age. This special age is a time in which God is calling out people from all nations to become members of the church. The present age was a mystery unrevealed in the Old Testament, and it is not included in outlined events for Israel because the church is not Israel. When the present program for the church is brought to completion, God will resume his program for Israel and bring it to completion. Here is where dispensationalism "matters" when it comes to understanding what is going on, and why."

http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=5156&mesg_id=5202&page=

Hope that helps.

-Tim

[Tim C.]

And I can also tell you that the fathers of church history were (for the most part) NOT PreMill.Oh really?

-Tim

[Sheepdog]

who's been :gravedig:ing?

[Tim C.]

grave diging?

-Tim

[studyhound]

This is a year old thread....I dont even think Adam.Naranjo is even still here at Tweb, I havent seen him in quite awhile

[Tim C.]

This is a year old thread....I dont even think Adam.Naranjo is even still here at Tweb, I havent seen him in quite awhileOh, I see.

Thanks,
Tim