Baptize / Baptism [Archive] - TheologyWeb Campus

John Reece

February 9th 2004, 03:43 PM

Having noted several threads containing arguments re baptism, I'd like to do a survey of the occurrences of baptizw and baptisma in the Greek New Testament - to see what the scriptures say about baptism.

Matthew 3

John the Baptist Prepares the Way

1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
'Prepare the way of the Lord;
make his paths straight.'"
4 Now John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, 6 and they were baptized (ebaptizonto) by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism (baptisma), he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 "I baptize (baptizw) you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize (baptisei) you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

The Baptism of Jesus

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized (baptisqhnai) by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized (baptisqhnai) by you, and do you come to me?" 15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized (baptisqeiV), immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." (ESV)

I was dunked as a Baptist at about age 12 years. For all I can remember, it might as well have been sprinkling as a Presbyterian at age 12 days or 12 weeks (I was herded through the process with a bunch of other adolescents - not really having any comprehension of what it was all about, so far as I can recall).

If I were not already baptized, I would choose to be baptized, to follow the Lord's example. It's interesting to consider the reason he gave for being baptized, and to see what happened as a consequence of his baptism. From the perspective of the Son, the Spirit, and the Father, baptism is obviously more than mere ritual.

themuzicman

February 9th 2004, 04:56 PM

Well, baptizw literally translated means "immerse" or "dip", so I don't know how one would get sprinkling out of that.

John Reece

February 9th 2004, 05:45 PM

Well, baptizw literally translated means "immerse" or "dip", so I don't know how one would get sprinkling out of that.

After graduating from two Presbyterian theological schools (PSCE and Union in Virginia), I forfeited a career as a Presbyterian minister over that point (and one other).

Since then, I have been given a distinct impression that God is not picky about mode of baptism. So neither am I, when it comes to the belief and practice of others.

dynomite

February 9th 2004, 11:46 PM

Well, baptizw literally translated means "immerse" or "dip", so I don't know how one would get sprinkling out of that.

I'm a sucker for a baptism discussion.

I don't believe this is the case, b/c it it coincides with ceremonial washings, etc., and isn't limited to "immerse" or "dip". I unfortunately don't have my handy dandy sources in front of me, but here is a snippet from John Murray, "The fallacy of the first argument [certain passages teach immersion] resides in an arbitrary selection of certain aspectsof Paul's teaching regarding our union with Christ...Gal. 3:27 bears no resemblence to immersion." Basically, he is arguing that various pictures are used to described what occurs in baptism, so this isn't a "proof text" issue. He then lists Lv. 14:6, 51; Mt. 15:2; Mk. 7:2-5; Lk 11:38; 1 Cor. 10:2; Heb. 9:10-23 as verses suggesting that baptism doesn't mean immersion.

With that said, I agree with the initial post that baptism is more than a mere ritual, but a means of grace. The Holy Spirit is active in the waters of baptism. Think of it as the Word preached. Preaching is so much more than a man speaking, and baptism is so much more than a person getting wet. What is the difference?

John Reece

February 10th 2004, 10:32 AM

I'm a sucker for a baptism discussion.

I don't believe this is the case, b/c it it coincides with ceremonial washings, etc., and isn't limited to "immerse" or "dip". I unfortunately don't have my handy dandy sources in front of me, but here is a snippet from John Murray, "The fallacy of the first argument [certain passages teach immersion] resides in an arbitrary selection of certain aspectsof Paul's teaching regarding our union with Christ...Gal. 3:27 bears no resemblence to immersion." Basically, he is arguing that various pictures are used to described what occurs in baptism, so this isn't a "proof text" issue. He then lists Lv. 14:6, 51; Mt. 15:2; Mk. 7:2-5; Lk 11:38; 1 Cor. 10:2; Heb. 9:10-23 as verses suggesting that baptism doesn't mean immersion.

With that said, I agree with the initial post that baptism is more than a mere ritual, but a means of grace. The Holy Spirit is active in the waters of baptism. Think of it as the Word preached. Preaching is so much more than a man speaking, and baptism is so much more than a person getting wet. What is the difference?

:yes:

:thumb:

If I had not bypassed the courses in theology at UTS (in favor of courses in Hebrew and Greek exegesis, none of which dealt with baptism), I might not have forfeited a career as a Presbyterian minister (after the Seminary and Presbytery had already set me up to serve as pastor in the church that was intent on calling me as minister . . . but that's a complex story . . .), and it might not have taken so many years for me to learn more than I understood when I quibbled over mode of baptism. But, then again, courses in theology at UTS probably could not have accomplished what was achieved subsequently by crippling discipline ("Yes, Lord! I surrender!").

Next lexical occurrence:

Matthew 21

The Authority of Jesus Challenged

23 And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, "By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?" 24 Jesus answered them, "I also will ask you one question, and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism (baptisma) of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?" And they discussed it among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will say to us, 'Why then did you not believe him?' 26 But if we say, 'From man,' we are afraid of the crowd, for they all hold that John was a prophet." 27 So they answered Jesus, "We do not know." And he said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things. (ESV)

joelkaki

February 10th 2004, 12:49 PM

I do not believe that baptizw can only mean to immerse, dip, or other similar ideas. I think that the NT is very clear in its usage of the word that it can refer to "various washings" (Hebrews 9:10) that entail sprinkling and/or pouring.

Joel

themuzicman

February 10th 2004, 01:23 PM

Well, then, you need to go take a greek class.

"Baptize" is a word made up by the KJV translators, because they didn't want to get into the stick issue of what baptism meant. In fact, "Baptize" is a transliteration of baptizo.

If we were to translate "baptize" into english, it would be eithe "dip" or "immerse". Nothing else.

(Yes, there were other washings that weren't baptisms, but those were part of the OT law, and aren't baptisms.)

Michael

Spiritus Naturae

February 10th 2004, 01:58 PM

If we were to translate "baptize" into english, it would be eithe "dip" or "immerse". Nothing else.

(Yes, there were other washings that weren't baptisms, but those were part of the OT law, and aren't baptisms.)

Michael

:thumb:

In the OT the priests participated in ritual cleansing, which did involve bathing in a closely and succinctly prescribed fashion before they could enter the Temple. No, these indeed, were not "baptisms".

joelkaki

February 10th 2004, 10:56 PM

Well, then, you need to go take a greek class.

I have had a year of Greek, as well as 2 semesters of Hebrew.

"Baptize" is a word made up by the KJV translators, because they didn't want to get into the stick issue of what baptism meant. In fact, "Baptize" is a transliteration of βαπτιζο.

That is always the cry, and I don't suppose I really disagree with it. But I don't think that means that it should have invariably been translated "dip" or "immerse." The central idea is washing--whether by sprinkling, pouring, or immersing/dipping.

If we were to translate "baptize" into english, it would be eithe "dip" or "immerse". Nothing else.

The NT (as well as in the Septuagint) usage of baptizw proves otherwise.

(Yes, there were other washings that weren't baptisms, but those were part of the OT law, and aren't baptisms.)

Michael

The point is, baptizw and its variant forms have been used to denote acts of washing other than immersion, and thus it cannot only mean to immerse.

Joel

themuzicman

February 11th 2004, 09:35 AM

Cite?

John Reece

February 11th 2004, 12:01 PM

Matthew 28

The Great Commission

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing (baptizonteV) them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (ESV)

themuzicman

February 11th 2004, 12:03 PM

John Reece

February 11th 2004, 12:28 PM

That can't be interpreted (symbolically) "immersing them in the name of the Father..."?

Besides, that's not a ceremonial washing, or sprinkling or pouring, either.

Michael

Michael,

The post to which you responded was not a response to your one word post: "Cite?"

I should have made that clear.

This thread was started to survey the context of every occurrence of the words baptizw and baptisma in the GNT (and maybe the LXX when I finish the GNT).

Your comments and those of others are more than welcome to occur in the course of this survey.

Just know that when I post an occurrence without comment, I'm simply moving on with the survey of occurrences, not engaging in any debate that may be going on simultaneous to the survey.

Blessings,

John

joelkaki

February 11th 2004, 01:32 PM

Cite?

Hebrews 9:10 for one. Also, Jesus' baptism, taken into accordance with His words as to its purpose--to fulfill all righteousness--seems to point strongly toward sprinkling. The very nature of what baptism signifies (as noted in some baptism accounts such as Cornelius)--the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
There are many others, but let me ask you this question, to see what you really mean is the core idea of baptizw: Is the core idea the action of being placed down into a liquid and then coming up again, or is the idea more the amount of water being used, in your opinion?

Joel

themuzicman

February 11th 2004, 02:31 PM

Michael,

The post to which you responded was not a response to your one word post: "Cite?"

I should have made that clear.

This thread was started to survey the context of every occurrence of the words baptizw and baptisma in the GNT (and maybe the LXX when I finish the GNT).

Your comments and those of others are more than welcome to occur in the course of this survey.

Just know that when I post an occurrence without comment, I'm simply moving on with the survey of occurrences, not engaging in any debate that may be going on simultaneous to the survey.

Blessings,

John

My apologies, John. :blush:

Michael

themuzicman

February 11th 2004, 02:35 PM

Hebrews 9:10 for one. Also, Jesus' baptism, taken into accordance with His words as to its purpose--to fulfill all righteousness--seems to point strongly toward sprinkling. The very nature of what baptism signifies (as noted in some baptism accounts such as Cornelius)--the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
There are many others, but let me ask you this question, to see what you really mean is the core idea of baptizw: Is the core idea the action of being placed down into a liquid and then coming up again, or is the idea more the amount of water being used, in your opinion?

Joel

Well, "Dip" or "immerse" clearly indicates that that which is baptized is going into what he is being baptized in, and not the other way around. This specific verse is referring to a Hebrew ceremonial issue regarding the purification of the High Priest before going into the Holy of Holies. I doubt Jesus needed to be purified, even symbolically.

Furthermore, I would need to do more study regarding the Hebrew that this regulation came from to understand the reason for the translation from Greek to English. My guess is that the priest actually took a bath, and thus dipping in the water to bathe fits ceremonial "baptism", but that's just my impression.

Either way, clearly this refers to an OT ritual, which never applied to babies or any ordinary person (or normal priest for that matter.)

Michael

John Reece

February 11th 2004, 02:47 PM

My apologies, John. :blush:

Michael

No problem, Michael. :smile:

I hope you keep posting your comments as the survey progresses.

Blessings,

John

John Reece

February 12th 2004, 10:12 AM

Mark 1

John the Baptist Prepares the Way

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, "Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
'Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,'"
4 John appeared, baptizing (baptizwn) in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism (baptisma) of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized (ebaptizonto) by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist and ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I have baptized (ebaptisa) you with water, but he will baptize (baptisei) you with the Holy Spirit."

The Baptism of Jesus

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized (ebaptisqh) by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water*, immediately he saw the heavens opening and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." (ESV)

*Is this significant for the mode-of-baptism debate? :smile:

Rdr. Arsenios

February 12th 2004, 11:48 AM

John - Isn't there a Biblical association of the Holy Spirit with water? [In John, I should think...]

[geo] Arsenios

themuzicman

February 12th 2004, 11:55 AM

The Holy Spirit is usually associated with oil, if memory serves.

Michael

John Reece

February 12th 2004, 01:21 PM

John - Isn't there a Biblical association of the Holy Spirit with water? [In John, I should think...]

[geo] Arsenios

The Holy Spirit is usually associated with oil, if memory serves.

Michael

Both, as well as wind/breath (air).

Rdr. Arsenios

February 12th 2004, 05:45 PM

Both [oil and water], as well as wind/breath (air).

Here's the John 7 quote:

38 He that believeth in Me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
39 (But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believe in Him should receive; for the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Indeed out of Christ's very own belly flowed water and blood...

The part of this that caught me is that He is speaking of the Spirit when he is speaking of flowing rivers of living water... And we are baptized in water... and with oil... and by breath... These are the elements of the Holy Mystery of Baptism in Orthodoxy for 2000 years now... With never any controversy whatsoever...

I found another article on baptism I will try to get in here, time and God willing...

[geo] Arsenios

John Reece

February 12th 2004, 06:01 PM

Here's the John 7 quote:

38 He that believeth in Me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
39 (But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believe in Him should receive; for the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Indeed out of Christ's very own belly flowed water and blood...

The part of this that caught me is that He is speaking of the Spirit when he is speaking of flowing rivers of living water... And we are baptized in water... and with oil... and by breath... These are the elements of the Holy Mystery of Baptism in Orthodoxy for 2000 years now... With never any controversy whatsoever...

I found another article on baptism I will try to get in here, time and God willing...

[geo] Arsenios

:thumb:

I look forward to seeing the article, George.

Blessings,

John

joelkaki

February 12th 2004, 10:19 PM

Well, "Dip" or "immerse" clearly indicates that that which is baptized is going into what he is being baptized in, and not the other way around.

OK, so just let me make sure you what you are saying: The idea of baptizw is that if being placed down into a substance, not the amount of water involved. So if an action is described in which much water is involved, but there is no action of placing down into the substance, then can baptizw properly be used for that idea?

This specific verse is referring to a Hebrew ceremonial issue regarding the purification of the High Priest before going into the Holy of Holies. I doubt Jesus needed to be purified, even symbolically.

I know. Exactly my point. Notice how the purification was done in the OT. I'm not saying that Jesus needed to be purified either symbolically or literally, but what I am saying is that the method of purification for the High Priest was sprinkling, in addition to immersion, thus baptizw is here used to refer to an action other than exclusively immersion. Jesus had to follow that aspect of the Law "to fulfill all righteousness"--to fulfill the requirements of the Law regarding High Priests, not that he actually needed to be purified.

Furthermore, I would need to do more study regarding the Hebrew that this regulation came from to understand the reason for the translation from Greek to English. My guess is that the priest actually took a bath, and thus dipping in the water to bathe fits ceremonial "baptism", but that's just my impression.

Go back to Numbers 18, I believe it is. You will see that the regulation is not simply immersion, but requires immersion.

Either way, clearly this refers to an OT ritual, which never applied to babies or any ordinary person (or normal priest for that matter.)

Forget the baby issue for the moment. That goes somewhere else entirely. And really forget the issue of it being an OT ritual, too, because that misses the point regarding the debate of how baptizw is to be translated. If baptizw is used to talk about something including sprinkling, than it can clearly not exclusively refer to immersion, and thus the biggest part of the Baptist argument is done away with.

Joel

One Bad Pig

February 12th 2004, 10:30 PM

:popcorn:

kofh2u

February 12th 2004, 10:52 PM

His winnowing fork is in his hand............

luke 3:17 says "winnowing fork,"... in KJV, Matt 3:12 uses "fan... fan in his hand"....
The baptism by fire had something to do with a very special laying on of hands. Everyone can understand this if attention were to be directed at this verse, confirmed by Matt 1:1-19... this has to do with "the first resurrection" of the kohanim.

There is no mistake in this, only total ignorance, and some side stepping by authoritative types
who see nothing to be gained personally in examining just what it was that John was referring to in this... "fan in his hand..." ... a fanning of his fingers, strangely enough, in the familiar gesture of our own Dr Spock!

Does the truth about this, the first of a few subtle hints about something big break anyone's self assured strde that all is perfectly clear, otherwise, so why make waves?

One Bad Pig

February 12th 2004, 11:17 PM

luke 3:17 says "winnowing fork,"... in KJV, Matt 3:12 uses "fan... fan in his hand"....
The baptism by fire had something to do with a very special laying on of hands. Everyone can understand this if attention were to be directed at this verse, confirmed by Matt 1:1-19... this has to do with "the first resurrection" of the kohanim.

There is no mistake in this, only total ignorance, and some side stepping by authoritative types
who see nothing to be gained personally in examining just what it was that John was referring to in this... "fan in his hand..." ... a fanning of his fingers, strangely enough, in the familiar gesture of our own Dr Spock!

Does the truth about this, the first of a few subtle hints about something big break anyone's self assured strde that all is perfectly clear, otherwise, so why make waves?

What're you smoking? :noid: I gotta get me some.

John Reece

February 13th 2004, 08:58 AM

What're you smoking? :noid: I gotta get me some.

:smile:

Moving on to the next lexical references:

Mark 6

The Death of John the Baptist

14 King Herod heard of it, for Jesus' name had become known. Some said, "John the Baptist (o baptizwn) has been raised from the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at work in him." 15 But others said, "He is Elijah." And others said, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, "John, whom I beheaded, has been raised." 17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed, and yet he heard him gladly.
21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his nobles and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 For when Herodias's daughter came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you." 23 And he vowed to her, "Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom." 24 And she went out and said to her mother, "For what should I ask?" And she said, "The head of John the Baptist (o baptizwn)." 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 And the king was exceedingly sorry, but because of his oaths and his guests he did not want to break his word to her. 27 And immediately the king sent an executioner with orders to bring John's head. He went and beheaded him in the prison 28 and brought his head on a platter and gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard of it, they came and took his body and laid it in a tomb. (ESV)

The above text brings back to me a distant memory. While at Duke in 1966, I took a course in the exegesis of Mark under Professor James Michael ("Mickey") Efird. When we got to the above text, in which the word rendered "Baptist" is not a noun but the nominative singular masculine present active participle of the verb baptizw, he said facetiously, "John was not a Baptist". Of course, in other texts in the NT, there is a noun (baptisthV) that is rendered "Baptist", referring to John the Baptist.

themuzicman

February 13th 2004, 09:20 AM

OK, so just let me make sure you what you are saying: The idea of baptizw is that if being placed down into a substance, not the amount of water involved. So if an action is described in which much water is involved, but there is no action of placing down into the substance, then can baptizw properly be used for that idea?

Well, "Dip" and "immerse" don't leave us with that impression. It's not merely getting a little bit wet, but actively being put into and soaked by whatever you're being dipped into.

Forget the baby issue for the moment. That goes somewhere else entirely. And really forget the issue of it being an OT ritual, too, because that misses the point regarding the debate of how baptizw is to be translated. If baptizw is used to talk about something including sprinkling, than it can clearly not exclusively refer to immersion, and thus the biggest part of the Baptist argument is done away with.

Joel

I'll have to get with GP on the technicalities of "ceremonial washings", but baptizw is pretty clear in it's reference to dipping and immersing.

Michael

John Reece

February 13th 2004, 10:11 AM

Next reference:

Mark 7

Traditions and Commandments

1 Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, 2 they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed.
3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash (viywntai = 3rd person plural aorist middle subjunctive of viptw) their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders
4 and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash (baptiswntai = 3rd person plural aorist middle subjunctive of baptizw). And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing (baptismouV = accusative plural of baptismoV) of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?" 6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." (ESV)

With the above text, we have added a third word to this survey: baptismoV.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 13th 2004, 11:50 AM

The whole idea of baptism is birth through water, and in the Christian Tradition, this means the entry through the water into the ark of salvation, the Church... It is indeed a cleansing, but not merely of the body, but of the person, and it is prepared in apostolic discipleship, through repentance, and in prayer...

The Israelites fled the armies of Pharoah, and passed through the Red Sea in faith and safety, and the sea was held back by God, yet closed in on and destroyed the body of the demonic armies pursuing them unto their destruction... The Children of God had been held in a foreign land in bondage to slavery to Pharoah - And that has not changed, for we are living in the world, and are enslaved to our sins and passions, and when we exit that world, we too must pass through the waters that bring us life, and separate us as new-borns from the pursuing demons that desire to destroy us, and that once held us so tightly in their grip... The first Ark only had 8 people on board, and the world was destroyed, and the second passage but saved the Israelites, and not, in Christ, salvation has come to all mankind, if any are willing... For the old man dies beneath those waters, and a new child emerges, and the Holy Spirit is breathed into that child, and the annointing seal of the Holy Spirit is given, the Chrism of Christ, and we become Christians in a new birth, new members of the household of God... This is how Christ commanded it be done, the apostles discipling the nations, baptizing them... Even as Christ was Himself baptized, that we follow Him, that all righteousness be fulfilled... Denying our selves, and taking up our own cross, and following Christ... All voluntary... If anyone is willing... Unto the attainment of the nous of Christ... Maturity in the faith...

Christian faith and self-denial are one... "Except ye hate your life..." [...ye cannot love Christ's Life...] And self-denial and humility are one... And except ye be born of water and Spirit... They are one... As Christ is One... Even our tears of repentance are a baptism, a renewal of our baptism in Christ...

There is an early desert story of a man baptized in sand, where no water was...

[geo] Arsenios

dynomite

February 13th 2004, 03:36 PM

djconklin

February 13th 2004, 08:56 PM

See the article on (transliterated) "bapto, baptidzo, baptismos, baptisma, baptistes" in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 1, pages 529-46 by Oepke. In addition to Biblical sources he also notes extra-biblical material that supports the idea that it means "to dip in or under" (page 529).

Rdr. Arsenios

February 13th 2004, 11:43 PM

Anyway, you Eastern Orthodox keep providing good material like that you may get me to join you. If I was only satisfied with your view of the atonement and justification, then I might take the plunge. Good stuff.

Pretty spendy, this EO plunge... It'll cost ya plenty... No more'n you got, but all of it, 'cause you see, it cost's you... **** ****

The sand baptism story was about some Christians and a Jew crossing the desert, getting lost, and running out of water, and walking for a week or so, and the Jew finally could make it no farther - The other guys had carried him for two days, and that was getting just too painful, so he had to be left behind, and as they were preparing to do so, he begged them to baptize him before they left him there to die, because he wanted to die a Christian...

Big dilemma - These kids were young, in their 20s, and devout, but nobody was a priest, and nobody had the blessing of the Church to baptize, and besides that, they had no water, so what to do - And one of them had initiative, and decided to do the service of baptism as a layman, as best as he could remember it, and use sand instead of water, because that was all that they had... And they baptized the dying Jew in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... So that they could get out of there in time to possibly survive... But the Jew arose from his baptism, and was suddenly pain free and not thirsty and full of energy, and led them all to safety three days later...

And the baptizer and his pals confessed to their priest what they had done, and the priest sent them to the bishop, and the bishop had a problem - Several problems...

What to do with the guy who had shown initiative and baptized?
What to do with the Jew? Recognize his baptism? Or rebaptize him properly in the Church?

He ended up rebaptizing the Jew, and conferring the Diaconate upon the man with initiative...

The ancient faith of the first millennium is filled with these kinds of stories, all of which are taken from the household of God... There is a book chock full of them called "The Spiritual Meadow" collected by John Moschos isbn 0 87907 539

That is the spirituality of the Orthodox Church to this day - It has never changed - Justification is a function of repentance and is progressive according to the degree to which we mortify the "old man" and grow into the "new creature" in Christ... Running the race set before us, overcoming the opposition that hates us without cause, and seeks our destruction, the rulership of the earth, the spirits of the air... Christ is our atonement, and in Him Who atoned for us and overcame the world, we do the same, following Him...

The Christian faith is no mere head trip for Orthodox, arguing about who's got it said and understood right, but is very holistically body involved... [Christ's human flesh is glorified at the right hand of Power... ]

But enough -

The **** **** = "your life"...

[geo] Arsenios

One Bad Pig

February 14th 2004, 01:30 AM

Pretty spendy, this EO plunge... It'll cost ya plenty... No more'n you got, but all of it, 'cause you see, it cost's you... **** ****
<...>
The Christian faith is no mere head trip for Orthodox, arguing about who's got it said and understood right, but is very holistically body involved... [Christ's human flesh is glorified at the right hand of Power... ]

But enough -

The **** **** = "your life"...

[geo] Arsenios
Properly, the Christian faith is just as costly, and is no mere head trip for a "Protestant" either. It's the lack of persecution, IMO, that's allowed the proliferation of stances we see in the 'free world' today. As I learn more about the theology of the Orthodox church, I find that I differ with the extrabiblical practices much more than the theology.

joelkaki

February 14th 2004, 01:39 AM

Well, "Dip" and "immerse" don't leave us with that impression. It's not merely getting a little bit wet, but actively being put into and soaked by whatever you're being dipped into.

OK, one more question. Would you say that baptw has this same idea (That it is the actual action of putting down into the substance, not just the fact that a lot of water or whatever is used)?

I'll have to get with GP on the technicalities of "ceremonial washings", but βαπτιζω is pretty clear in it's reference to dipping and immersing.

Michael

I'm not sure what "technicalities" you are referring to, but I think the point is extremely hard to disprove, because Numb 18 is very clear that sprinkling was used, and this is included in baptizw in the reference to Jesus' baptism.

Joel

John Reece

February 14th 2004, 10:10 AM

Rdr. Arsenios

February 14th 2004, 11:17 AM

Next occurrence in the concordance:

Mark 10

The Request of James and John

35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 36 And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" 37 And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory." 38 Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized (baptisqhnai) with the baptism (baptisma) with which I am baptized (baptizomai)?" 39 And they said to him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism (baptisma) with which I am baptized (baptizomai), you will be baptized (baptisqhsesqe), 40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared." 41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. 42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, "You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (ESV)

Re the text above, what is the baptism with which Jesus was baptized, with which he said his disciples would be baptized?

Indeed - What is this baptism of Christ with which we will be baptized? And what is this cup which we will drink that is Christ's cup? Or is it, as your carefully crafted words suggest, just that only His apostolic disciples will be so baptized and will so drink? And that for the rest of us, we can join with those who say that they had a visitation of the holy spirit and are therefore baptized, and that therefore they do not have any need to be baptized in the holy waters of the Jordan in Christ's baptism, but may, at their option, decide to be baptized at their liesure as a mere ceremonial matter for the sake of their own personal piety - But then again, may not...?? [Thereby making of Christ's Baptism a mere social statement...]

Christ's baptism is plainly set forth, and it was at the hands of John, the one baptizing, in the Jordan River, where the promised land awaits those in the wilderness, yet where monstrous giants await... Through these waters we must pass, that we enter the Promised Land, and in them, to do battle with the Goliaths... And the pursuing demons will find their destruction, as they did in a figure in the Red Sea as they pursued the fleeing Israelites, and were drowned, as was the entire world except Noah and his oikonomia [household] in the Ark of Salvation, prefiguring the Ekklesia of Christ, His holy Church...

And He went down into the waters, and coming up out of them, the heavens opened, and the Holy Spirit descended as a dove and remained upon Him... Such is the holiness of the baptism of Christ in which we are baptized -

Pious Orthodox legend has it that the very waters of the Jordan were reversed in their flow upon His entry, that those waters were changed forever, that water itself became Life-giving in that event, just as the Cross became life giving because it held Christ aloft in the agony of death, and we are to take up our own now life giving cross and follow Him Who calls us forth to shame the demons of hell that afflict us in our struggle to turn wholly unto God, and away from the allure of comforts and the fear of death...

Such is Christ's baptism...

And the Cross is His cup...

May they both find room in our hearts...

[geo] Arsenios

One Bad Pig

February 14th 2004, 01:19 PM

themuzicman

February 14th 2004, 01:55 PM

Actually, the "I am baptized" is a passive preent, which means 'I am being baptized'. So, the disciples would have picked up that He wasn't referring to water.

Michael

John Reece

February 14th 2004, 02:06 PM

Thanks for the responses.

The way I look for answers to such questions is to check the cross-references in the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, such as (context included):

Matthew 26

39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done." (ESV)

John 18

Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus

1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the Kidron Valley, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. 2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, for Jesus often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" 5 They answered him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I am he." Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus said to them, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 So he asked them again, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go." 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: "Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one." 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?" (ESV)

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

John Reece

February 14th 2004, 02:25 PM

Actually, the "I am baptized" is a passive present, which means 'I am being baptized'. So, the disciples would have picked up that He wasn't referring to water.

Michael

I doubt they were speaking Greek . . . (?)

themuzicman

February 14th 2004, 03:56 PM

But it was written in greek by an eyewitness, and used the present passive tense. You think that was an accident?

Michael

John Reece

February 14th 2004, 04:22 PM

But it was written in greek by an eyewitness, and used the present passive tense. You think that was an accident?

Michael

No.

John Reece

February 14th 2004, 05:02 PM

Mark 11

The Authority of Jesus Challenged

27 And they came again to Jerusalem. And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him, 28 and they said to him, "By what authority are you doing these things, or who gave you this authority to do them?" 29 Jesus said to them, "I will ask you one question; answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 Was the baptism (baptisma) of John from heaven or from man? Answer me." 31 And they discussed it with one another, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will say, 'Why then did you not believe him?' 32 But shall we say, 'From man'?"--they were afraid of the people, for they all held that John really was a prophet. 33 So they answered Jesus, "We do not know." And Jesus said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things." (ESV)

John Reece

February 14th 2004, 05:10 PM

Mark 16

The Great Commission

14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized (baptisqeiV) will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover." (ESV)

Rdr. Arsenios

February 14th 2004, 05:26 PM

Actually, the "I am baptized" is a passive present, which means 'I am being baptized'. So, the disciples would have picked up that He wasn't referring to water.

Indeed it is a present indicative, but is not quite passive - it is 'ego...baptizomai', which is translated as passive, yet is a middle, and not a deponent middle, verb...

The result is that it means both the baptism He receives, and that which He gives, both of which are *His* baptism - [I mean, whose ELSE would they be??] I really do not think that any disciple would think that he was not referring to being baptized into Christ through water... That is how Jesus Himself was baptized, and is how we are baptized into Him... The use of the middle does a wonderful thing here, being neither active nor passive, but both... The actor being the object of the action... I confess I was surprised to see it - Most 'middles' in Koine Greek are deponent, and hence not true middles, but this one is different, and to my aging and classically trained eyes, seems utterly appropriate here... For Christ was not but the mere 'victim' of His baptism, but as well was its Author...

[geo] Arsenios

John Reece

February 15th 2004, 11:19 AM

Luke 3

John the Baptist Prepares the Way

1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism (baptisma) of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
'Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall become straight,
and the rough places shall become level ways,
6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"
7 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized (baptisqhnai) by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
10 And the crowds asked him, "What then shall we do?" 11 And he answered them, "Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise." 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized (baptisqhnai) and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13 And he said to them, "Collect no more than you are authorized to do." 14 Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages." (ESV)

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 11:16 AM

Luke 3

15 As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ, 16 John answered them all, saying, "I baptize (baptizw) you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize (baptisei) you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
18 So with many other exhortations he preached good news to the people. 19 But Herod the tetrarch, who had been reproved by him for Herodias, his brother's wife, and for all the evil things that Herod had done, 20 added this to them all, that he locked up John in prison.
21 Now when all the people were baptized (baptisqhnai), and when Jesus also had been baptized (baptisqentoV) and was praying, the heavens were opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." (ESV)

themuzicman

February 16th 2004, 12:22 PM

OK, one more question. Would you say that baptw has this same idea (That it is the actual action of putting down into the substance, not just the fact that a lot of water or whatever is used)?

I'm not sure what "technicalities" you are referring to, but I think the point is extremely hard to disprove, because Numb 18 is very clear that sprinkling was used, and this is included in baptizw in the reference to Jesus' baptism.

Joel

The only "sprinkle" I find in Numbers 18 is the sprinkling of the blood onto the altar, which had nothing to do with Jesus' baptism in water.

Michael

Rdr. Arsenios

February 16th 2004, 01:02 PM

Luke 3

15 \16 John answered them all, saying, "I baptize (baptizw) you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize (baptisei) you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
(ESV)

So John, is this baptism by fire the refinement of virtue in the fires of worldly tribulations? Or do we have to join with our Hindu Brethren and build a bed of coals and walk barefoot thereupon? And if the former, then is worldly tribulation the standard of baptism? And does the burning of the chaff find the flame of its ignition and destruction in the fires of worldly tribulation? And what ARE these worldly tribulations? Are they the cross we willingly take up? And in what do they consist? Can we praise God in thankfulness when we get cancer...? Or for our colostomy bag...? Or for crime...? Or for gay marriages in San Francisco? How about for the death of a child? How much chaff is burned in these kinds of events, where we who profess our love of God find ourselves without thankfulness and praise of Him in tribulations? I have been burned in all these... Where about the only thing I could think is: "God must be really mad..." Never seeing His love and mercy... That seeing takes faith... And I am so very faithless...

A man steals your coat, and he has violated the law...
You catch up with him, and give him the coat, plus a hundred dollars as well, and he is no longer in violation of the law...
The man turns from stealing...
And unto God...

Such is divine justice... For it elevates the man through you who exercise it, by caring not for the coat or the $100, but for the man...

Those who do so routinely, or perhaps better to say, who do so as a matter of the praxis of their faith, in thankfulness to God, have been well baptized in the fires of tribulation... Their gold, formerly buried and hidden in the earth of their divided hearts, has been found and refined, and now shines forth in Christ's holy light, and what was before, crime, victimization, punishment, and angst, is no longer any of that, for that has all passed away, and there is only God, and the opportunity to glorify [eg make VERY apparent] Him...

[geo] Arsenios

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 01:08 PM

Luke 7

24 When John's messengers had gone, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 25 What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are dressed in splendid clothing and live in luxury are in kings' courts. 26 What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is he of whom it is written, "'Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.' 28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29 (When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just, having been baptized (baptisqenteV) with the baptism (baptisma) of John, 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized (baptisqenteV) by him.) (ESV)

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 02:04 PM

So John, is this baptism by fire the refinement of virtue in the fires of worldly tribulations?

I don't know, George.

Or do we have to join with our Hindu Brethren and build a bed of coals and walk barefoot thereupon?

No.

Blessings,

John

themuzicman

February 16th 2004, 02:06 PM

Where is it written that we all build with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble, and in the judgement, we will be tested with fire? Sounds like a baptism to me....

Michael

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 02:16 PM

Luke 11

Woes to the Pharisees and Lawyers

37 While Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee asked him to dine with him, so he went in and reclined at table. 38 The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash (ebaptisqh) before dinner. 39 And the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you. (ESV)

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 04:16 PM

Luke 12

Not Peace, but Division

49 "I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!
50 I have a baptism (baptisma) to be baptized (baptisqhnai) with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!
51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three.
53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." (ESV)

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 05:34 PM

Luke 20

The Authority of Jesus Challenged

1 One day, as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up 2 and said to him, "Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority." 3 He answered them, "I also will ask you a question. Now tell me, 4 Was the baptism (baptisma) of John from heaven or from man?" 5 And they discussed it with one another, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will say, 'Why did you not believe him?' 6 But if we say, 'From man,' all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet." 7 So they answered that they did not know where it came from. 8And Jesus said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things." (ESV)

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 05:56 PM

John 1

The Testimony of John the Baptist

19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." 22 So they said to him, "Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?" 23 He said, "I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."
24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) 25 They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing (baptizeiV), if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" 26 John answered them, "I baptize (baptizw) with water, but among you stands one you do not know, 27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." 28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing (baptizwn).

Behold, the Lamb of God

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing (baptizwn]) with water, that he might be revealed to Israel." 32 And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize (baptizein) with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes (baptizwn) with the Holy Spirit.' 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God." (ESV)

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 06:20 PM

John 3

John the Baptist Exalts Christ

22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing (ebaptizen). 23 John also was baptizing (baptizwn) at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized (ebaptizonto) 24 (for John had not yet been put in prison).
25 Now a discussion arose between some of John's disciples and a Jew over purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness--look, he is baptizing (baptizei), and all are going to him." 27 John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.' 29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease." (ESV)

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 06:28 PM

John 4

1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing (baptizei) more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize (ebaptizen) but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again for Galilee. (ESV)

joelkaki

February 16th 2004, 07:29 PM

The only "sprinkle" I find in Numbers 18 is the sprinkling of the blood onto the altar, which had nothing to do with Jesus' baptism in water.

Michael

I'm sorry. I made a mistake--my memory failed me. It is Numbers 8, not 18. Sorry about that.

But what about my question about baptw?

Joel

John Reece

February 16th 2004, 08:52 PM

John 10

40 He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing (baptizwn) at first, and there he remained. (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 09:26 AM

Acts 1

The Promise of the Holy Spirit

1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 To them he presented himself alive after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.
4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; 5 for John baptized (ebaptisen) with water, but you will be baptized (baptisqhsesqe) with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 09:58 AM

Acts 1

Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas

. . . 21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism (baptismatoV) of John until the day when he was taken up from us--one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection." . . . (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 10:14 AM

Acts 2

Peter's Sermon at Pentecost

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'
29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized (baptisqhtw) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41 So those who received his word were baptized (ebaptisqhsan), and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 02:21 PM

Acts 8

Simon the Magician Believes

9 But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. 10 They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called Great." 11 And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized (ebaptizonto), both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized (baptisqeiV) he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized (bebaptismenoi) in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 02:53 PM

Acts 8

Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch

. . . 34 And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?"
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.
36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized (baptisqhnai)?" 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized (ebaptisen) him. (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 07:02 PM

Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." 11 And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." 13 But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name." 15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight.
Then he rose and was baptized (ebaptisqh); and taking food, he was strengthened. (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 07:13 PM

Acts 10

Gentiles Hear the Good News

34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism (baptisma) that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing (baptisqhnai) these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized (baptisqhnai) in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. (ESV)

John Reece

February 17th 2004, 07:35 PM

Acts 11

Peter Reports to the Church

1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 3 "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them." 4 But Peter began and explained it to them in order: 5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. 6 Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, 'Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' 8 But I said, 'By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' 9 But the voice answered a second time from heaven, 'What God has made clean, do not call common.' 10 This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. 11 And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. 12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized (ebaptisen) with water,
but you will be baptized (baptisqhsesqe) with the Holy Spirit.' 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." (ESV)

John Reece

February 18th 2004, 09:58 AM

Acts 13

Paul and Barnabas in Antioch of Pisidia

13 Now Paul and his companions set sail from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem, 14 but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. 15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it." 16 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said:"Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen. 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it. 18 And for about forty years he put up with them in the wilderness. 19 And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21 Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, 'I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.' 23 Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised. 24 Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism (baptisma) of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, 'What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but behold, after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'
26 "Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. 27 For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28 And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29 And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead, 31 and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people. 32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.'
34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'
35 Therefore he says also in another psalm, "'You will not let your Holy One see corruption.'
36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption, 37but he whom God raised up did not see corruption. 38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything 39 from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. 40 Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:
41 "'Look, you scoffers,
be astounded and perish;
for I am doing a work in your days,
a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.'" (ESV)

The above is from Acts 13 . . .

Throughout the book of Acts, Paul goes first to the Jews whenever he goes to a new place . . .

In Acts 10, Peter goes to Gentiles . . .

I'd better stop expressing my thoughts, lest they arouse those who think Peter and Paul preached different gospels to different people . . .

John Reece

February 18th 2004, 11:59 AM

Acts 16

The Conversion of Lydia

11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
15 And after she was baptized (ebaptisqh), and her household as well, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us. (ESV)

John Reece

February 18th 2004, 01:28 PM

Acts 16

The Philippian Jailer Converted

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here." 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized (ebaptisqh) at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God. (ESV)

Acts 16 already, and Paul is still baptizing . . .

John Reece

February 18th 2004, 01:56 PM

Acts 18

Paul in Corinth

1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, 3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade. 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus. 6 And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles." 7 And he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. His house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized (ebaptizonto). 9 And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, "Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people." 11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. (ESV)

I don't know why, but I keep thinking about dispensational doctrine, about which I recall assertions that Paul preached a different gospel to Gentiles than was preached to Jews. But in these texts in Acts, Paul tries to persuade both Jews and Greeks, with no indication that he presented different messages to the one and to the other.

I also recall assertions that baptism was a requirement of salvation for Jews but not for Gentiles, but on every occasion, so far in this survey, in which Paul wins converts, the new believers are baptized. Do Dispensationalists think that baptism was required for Jews, but optional for Gentiles? If so, why the consistent record of baptism of Gentiles wherever Paul wins converts?

If my weak mind is confused re my recollections re Dispensational doctrine, and the relevance of these records of baptisms in Acts, I will appreciate being corrected.

John Reece

February 18th 2004, 02:15 PM

Acts 18

Apollos Speaks Boldly in Ephesus

24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism (baptisma) of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus. (ESV)

John Reece

February 18th 2004, 02:36 PM

Acts 19

Paul in Ephesus

1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized (ebaptisqhte)?" They said, "Into John's baptism (baptisma)."
4 And Paul said, "John baptized (ebaptisen) with the baptism (baptisma) of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
5 On hearing this, they were baptized (ebaptisqhsan) in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus. 10 This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks. (ESV)

Again, baptism follows Paul's preaching of a single "word of the Lord" to "both Jews and Greeks".

One Bad Pig

February 18th 2004, 11:57 PM

Where is it written that we all build with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble, and in the judgement, we will be tested with fire? Sounds like a baptism to me....

Michael
1 Cor. 3:12,ff

However, it seems to me that this is not speaking of a temporal baptism, but of judgement before the throne at the end of time. I could be wrong, though.

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 01:41 PM

Acts 21

Paul Speaks to the People

37 As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the tribune, "May I say something to you?" And he said, "Do you know Greek? 38 Are you not the Egyptian, then, who recently stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?" 39 Paul replied, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no obscure city. I beg you, permit me to speak to the people." 40 And when he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great hush, he addressed them in the Hebrew language, saying:

Acts 22

1 "Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you."
2 And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew language, they became even more quiet. And he said:
3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day. 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
6 "As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' 8 And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.' 9 Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me. 10 And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.' 11 And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
12 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized (ebaptisqhmen) and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 04:03 PM

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized (ebaptisqhmen) into Christ Jesus were baptized (ebaptisqhmen) into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism (baptismatoV) into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (ESV)[/list]

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 04:20 PM

1 Corinthians 1

Divisions in the Church

10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized (ebaptisqhte) in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized (ebaptisa) none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one may say that you were baptized (ebaptisqhte) in my name.
16 (I did baptize (ebaptisa) also the household of Stephanas.
Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized (ebaptisa) anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize (baptizein) but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 04:26 PM

1 Corinthians 10

Warning Against Idolatry

1 I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
2 and all were baptized (ebaptisqhsan) into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (ESV)[/list]

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 04:37 PM

1 Corinthians 12

One Body with Many Members

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized (ebaptisqhmen) into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 05:14 PM

1 Corinthians 15

The Resurrection of the Dead

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized (baptizomenoi) on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized (baptizontai) on their behalf? 30 Why am I in danger every hour? 31 I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! 32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." 33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." 34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 05:22 PM

Galatians 3

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized (ebaptisqhte) into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 05:34 PM

Ephesians 4

Unity in the Body of Christ

1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call --
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism (baptisma), 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men."
9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (ESV)[/list]

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 05:38 PM

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism (baptisma), which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 07:21 PM

Colossians 2

Alive in Christ

6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism (baptismw), in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 07:30 PM

Hebrews 6

1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings (baptismwn), the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 07:41 PM

Hebrews 9

The Earthly Holy Place

1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. 2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, 4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. 5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. 8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing 9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings (baptismoiV), regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. (ESV)

John Reece

February 19th 2004, 08:06 PM

2 Kings 5

Naaman Healed of Leprosy

1 Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master and in high favor, because by him the LORD had given victory to Syria. He was a mighty man of valor, but he was a leper. 2 Now the Syrians on one of their raids had carried off a little girl from the land of Israel, and she worked in the service of Naaman's wife. 3 She said to her mistress, "Would that my lord were with the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy." 4 So Naaman went in and told his lord, "Thus and so spoke the girl from the land of Israel." 5 And the king of Syria said, "Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel."So he went, taking with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold, and ten changes of clothes. 6 And he brought the letter to the king of Israel, which read, "When this letter reaches you, know that I have sent to you Naaman my servant, that you may cure him of his leprosy." 7 And when the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his clothes and said, "Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man sends word to me to cure a man of his leprosy? Only consider, and see how he is seeking a quarrel with me."
8 But when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, he sent to the king, saying, "Why have you torn your clothes? Let him come now to me, that he may know that there is a prophet in Israel." 9 So Naaman came with his horses and chariots and stood at the door of Elisha's house. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored, and you shall be clean." 11 But Naaman was angry and went away, saying, "Behold, I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call upon the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 But his servants came near and said to him, "My father, it is a great word the prophet has spoken to you; will you not do it? Has he actually said to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?" 14 So he went down and dipped (LXX: baptizw for Hebrew +BL = "dip") himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. (ESV)