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dacristoy
05-09-2014, 08:41 AM
Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.

KingsGambit
05-09-2014, 09:51 AM
I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.

Paprika
05-09-2014, 10:00 AM
Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.
Use Ephesians:
we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

dacristoy
05-09-2014, 10:15 AM
I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.
At what point did God determine men worthy of redemption. Gleaned from John 3:16...

KingsGambit
05-09-2014, 10:22 AM
At what point did God determine men worthy of redemption. Gleaned from John 3:16...

I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.

Christianbookworm
05-09-2014, 10:28 AM
I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.

How on earth could you be worthy of redemption? Sounds contradictory. Unless you think we earn our way to heaven, in which case, why did Jesus have to die?

KingsGambit
05-09-2014, 10:58 AM
How on earth could you be worthy of redemption? Sounds contradictory. Unless you think we earn our way to heaven, in which case, why did Jesus have to die?

:yes:

footwasher
05-09-2014, 11:18 AM
God values men highly, because we are His children, made in His image:

Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


Quote
The sixth commandment enjoins the preservation of human life itself, and the orderliness expressed in life. Human beings created in the image of God replicate on earth in their own persons a special form of divine order on earth. Their degradation into the disorder of death is a most serious disruption of divine order.

http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebooks/the-shadow-of-christ-in-the-law-of-moses/

Christianbookworm
05-09-2014, 11:22 AM
God values men highly, because we are His children, made in His image:

Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


Quote
The sixth commandment enjoins the preservation of human life itself, and the orderliness expressed in life. Human beings created in the image of God replicate on earth in their own persons a special form of divine order on earth. Their degradation into the disorder of death is a most serious disruption of divine order.

http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebooks/the-shadow-of-christ-in-the-law-of-moses/

Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?

footwasher
05-09-2014, 11:33 AM
Redemption from the body of death, which is now finished, thanks be to Christ Jesus:

Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

******21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!



Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?

Jedidiah
05-09-2014, 01:02 PM
There is a short sightedness in this discussion. We are not given all knowledge (in spite of what FarEastBirt seems to think). We do not know why God created man the way he did. It was his pleasure to do so. We can never, even in glory, come close to understanding all about God. He is not super strong, super smart man. He is so far above us we can not even comprehend the distance.

robrecht
05-09-2014, 01:34 PM
Jed is right. Spoken like a true apophatic.

Thoughtful Monk
05-09-2014, 03:32 PM
I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.

How about in the sense of man's redemption is worthy of His effort to achieve?

dacristoy
05-09-2014, 05:03 PM
Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?

We're not worthy of redemption, still God is worthy to redeem us...

My question is where in scripture is "worthy of destruction applicable before the application of redemption". I believe that the bible does teach that those that reject the salvation that Christ brings are worthy of destruction... But does the bible position us as worthy of destruction before the offer of salvation is rejected. IOW, which comes first, the chicken or the egg...

Obviously we do not merit salvation, it is the gift of God... That point is foundationally made, is the point of worthy of destruction foundationally made in scripture...

TimelessTheist
05-09-2014, 06:28 PM
Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.

You could refer to all the passages that flat-out say that baptism cleanses us of original sin.

footwasher
05-09-2014, 09:26 PM
The Original View of Original Sin
Quote
But Augustine did not devise the concept of original sin. It was his use of specific New Testament scriptures to justify the doctrine that was new. The concept itself had been shaped from the late second century onward by certain church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian. Irenaeus did not use the Scriptures at all for his definition; Origen reinterpreted the Genesis account of Adam and Eve in terms of a Platonic allegory and saw sin deriving solely from free will; and Tertullian’s version was borrowed from Stoic philosophy.

Though Augustine was convinced by the arguments of his earlier patristic peers, he made use of the apostle Paul’s letters, especially the one to the Romans, to develop his own ideas on original sin and guilt. Today, however, it is accepted that Augustine, who had never mastered the Greek language, misread Paul in at least one instance by using an inadequate Latin translation of the Greek original.

http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=227




You could refer to all the passages that flat-out say that baptism cleanses us of original sin.

Jedidiah
05-09-2014, 10:23 PM
Jed is right. Spoken like a true apophatic.

Well almost. Except for what we get from revelation, and that is only a small part of what we can understand. God is much more than that.

robrecht
05-10-2014, 07:44 AM
Well almost. ...Jed is almost right.

dacristoy
05-10-2014, 08:18 AM
You could refer to all the passages that flat-out say that baptism cleanses us of original sin.

Could you guide me to a few of them....

dacristoy
05-10-2014, 08:20 AM
Worthy of destruction; is it stated in scripture, or just seemingly implied in scriptures used out of their immediate context?

FarEastBird
05-13-2014, 02:03 PM
There is a short sightedness in this discussion. We are not given all knowledge (in spite of what FarEastBirt seems to think). We do not know why God created man the way he did. It was his pleasure to do so. We can never, even in glory, come close to understanding all about God. He is not super strong, super smart man. He is so far above us we can not even comprehend the distance.

You are completely misunderstanding me, Jed. I speak in terms of of what Christ said, that if we have the Holy Spirit, he will guide us into ALL truth; that is not about knowing ALL things. Only a crazy person would claim to know ALL things. You took the pleasure to make me a fool so you can excuse and glory of your ignorance. See, I'm sane enough to read your heart.

FarEastBird
05-13-2014, 04:10 PM
Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.

What makes us unworthy/evil speaks of our true nature. We are purely flesh (Gen 6:3). Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18) Regardless of human advancements, even today, we see that human nature is but self centered. Even Prof Dawkins, though he is championing naturalism, would not lie about the true nature of human nature. The bible itself tells us of true human nature:

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Eccl 3:18-20

We are dust by nature and does not differ to animals who have their morality in their flesh. Thus is the reason why our salvation should not be a work of our flesh, we ought not give glory to any man. Rather it is God himself who will work on us to will and to do of His good will (Phil 2:13). Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Paul also said, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:28-29)

dacristoy
05-14-2014, 08:42 AM
What makes us unworthy/evil speaks of our true nature. We are purely flesh (Gen 6:3). Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18) Regardless of human advancements, even today, we see that human nature is but self centered. Even Prof Dawkins, though he is championing naturalism, would not lie about the true nature of human nature. The bible itself tells us of true human nature:

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Eccl 3:18-20

We are dust by nature and does not differ to animals who have their morality in their flesh. Thus is the reason why our salvation should not be a work of our flesh, we ought not give glory to any man. Rather it is God himself who will work on us to will and to do of His good will (Phil 2:13). Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Paul also said, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:28-29)

Nothing here do I disagree with, what I have a problem with is “the wisdom of men” trying to judge me as God has not.

Too often I see men trying to magnify God by degrading the works of his hands. God is not good because we are bah, he is good because he is good. Nothing that I can do makes him one iota more or less magnificent. Before I ever existed, he is God. And he has no need to be otherwise because of who or what I am,
I am who or what he says, none the better or none the worse. He says that I am “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalm 139:13-14 KJV

I choose to try and live up to that which God said, not down to what some man said. I am unconvinced by man’s intellectual prowess or his praise at the hands of men…

FarEastBird
05-14-2014, 10:18 AM
Nothing here do I disagree with, what I have a problem with is “the wisdom of men” trying to judge me as God has not.

Too often I see men trying to magnify God by degrading the works of his hands. God is not good because we are bah, he is good because he is good. Nothing that I can do makes him one iota more or less magnificent. Before I ever existed, he is God. And he has no need to be otherwise because of who or what I am,
I am who or what he says, none the better or none the worse. He says that I am “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalm 139:13-14 KJV

I choose to try and live up to that which God said, not down to what some man said. I am unconvinced by man’s intellectual prowess or his praise at the hands of men…

It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself.

The spirit that I follow is the word of God, of which this spirit refers to God's plans in our Lord Jesus Christ. As I come to understand the word of God, and witness to happen to unfold in my life, that is my trust that I am in the spirit. But knowledge does not prove me of being in the spirit, but of being part of what is being unfolded of the word of God. There are prohesies given to us regarding the elect of God, as I see them unfold to me, is where I trust that God is working in me. Not just hoping, but truly knowing that God is with me

In truth and sincerity, it will be hard for anyone to distinguish who amongst us are speaking the truth of the word of God. The prophesies will give us the signs who, amongst us, are of God (Deut 18:20-22, 1Cor 14:22, 24)).

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 1Cor 14:4-5

dacristoy
05-14-2014, 04:20 PM
It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself.The spirit that I follow is the word of God, of which this spirit refers to God's plans in our Lord Jesus Christ. As I come to understand the word of God, and witness to happen to unfold in my life, that is my trust that I am in the spirit. But knowledge does not prove me of being in the spirit, but of being part of what is being unfolded of the word of God. There are prohesies given to us regarding the elect of God, as I see them unfold to me, is where I trust that God is working in me. Not just hoping, but truly knowing that God is with me

In truth and sincerity, it will be hard for anyone to distinguish who amongst us are speaking the truth of the word of God. The prophesies will give us the signs who, amongst us, are of God (Deut 18:20-22, 1Cor 14:22, 24)).

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 1Cor 14:4-5

Aaaah, er, you are not in the flesh...

FarEastBird
05-15-2014, 03:46 PM
Aaaah, er, you are not in the flesh...

Indeed, I am not. I am not trusting in myself, but of God, who I see, is working in me. I have a sort of an assurance that God is working in me. As I explained, we, as flesh, are doomed to be selfish, and evil. But hence I see that God is working in me, then I am no more in the flesh, but rather that God is working in me. Paul said, "... it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Note also the verses I quoted before.

The difference between you and me is that you do not know what God is doing to you, thus you rest on "your" trust, and you hope. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do but hope and trust in your own strength. Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail. Such is the sad nature of man, (including myself, of course), unless God will change us, and control our lives, we cannot escape such sad nature.

dacristoy
05-16-2014, 10:56 AM
Indeed, I am not. I am not trusting in myself, but of God, who I see, is working in me. I have a sort of an assurance that God is working in me. As I explained, we, as flesh, are doomed to be selfish, and evil. But hence I see that God is working in me, then I am no more in the flesh, but rather that God is working in me. Paul said, "... it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Note also the verses I quoted before.

The difference between you and me is that you do not know what God is doing to you, thus you rest on "your" trust, and you hope. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do but hope and trust in your own strength. Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail. Such is the sad nature of man, (including myself, of course), unless God will change us, and control our lives, we cannot escape such sad nature.

I also see him working in me, and by what authority do you set yourself up to call me deceitful. When did God set you up to be my judge, jury, as well as executioner...
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail". When did you cease being a man. Unless you're virgin born, you need a lot of prayer...

FarEastBird
05-16-2014, 04:27 PM
I also see him working in me, and by what authority do you set yourself up to call me deceitful. When did God set you up to be my judge, jury, as well as executioner...
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail". When did you cease being a man. Unless you're virgin born, you need a lot of prayer...

I clearly included myself as a man; I do not know why you took a blind eye on that part I wrote. It simply shows that you are not being fair in reading my post.

dacristoy
05-16-2014, 07:03 PM
I clearly included myself as a man; I do not know why you took a blind eye on that part I wrote. It simply shows that you are not being fair in reading my post.
The clear inclusion of yourself as a man should have incorporated the word "We" in your response.

"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail", The word "you" should have ben replaced with the word "we". Your post appears to be a tad high strung to me, I will try to reevaluate and be more fair if I have been unfair...

FarEastBird
05-16-2014, 09:09 PM
The clear inclusion of yourself as a man should have incorporated the word "We" in your response.

"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail", The word "you" should have been replaced with the word "we".

I was pointing to you the problem of when a person lack the knowledge, and thus poised only to have trust. There is no better example I can use except yourself. Nevertheless, as I concluded in the last sentence of my post, I am in no wise different with you as a man.

My point was to give a good contrast of the difference between a person who knows that God is working in him, to a person who simply trust. And with those talk, I am leading you to understand clearly what it meant to be not under the flesh.

There is no way for a person who has no direct knowledge that God is working in him but to trust in his own self. And the only way we can escape such sad estate is that God would work on us. If I, myself, had attained anything because that I trusted, then I myself gained through my flesh. If so, I will be contradicting myself when I claim I am not under the flesh.

dacristoy
05-17-2014, 08:36 AM
I was pointing to you the problem of when a person lack the knowledge, and thus poised only to have trust. There is no better example I can use except yourself. Nevertheless, as I concluded in the last sentence of my post, I am in no wise different with you as a man.

My point was to give a good contrast of the difference between a person who knows that God is working in him, to a person who simply trust. And with those talk, I am leading you to understand clearly what it meant to be not under the flesh.

There is no way for a person who has no direct knowledge that God is working in him but to trust in his own self. And the only way we can escape such sad estate is that God would work on us. If I, myself, had attained anything because that I trusted, then I myself gained through my flesh. If so, I will be contradicting myself when I claim I am not under the flesh.

David Koresh, Jim Jones as well as Osama Ben Laden were all piously positive that God was working in them more so than in the other person. You know absolutely nothing about my relationship with God or how he works in me. You know only that you and I have some theological differences, differences that do not make you more spiritually gifted than I. If you would move your hand from patting yourself on the back, maybe it would give someone else an opportunity to do so.

Get off your high horse and maybe we can discuss scripture, something that I believe we both know a little bit about, opposed to you discussing me, whom you know absolutely nothing

Your comments: "It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself", are you willing to wager your salvation that you are correct about me, if not zippit...


O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11:33 KJV
You don't know me like that...

FarEastBird
05-18-2014, 05:54 AM
David Koresh, Jim Jones as well as Osama Ben Laden were all piously positive that God was working in them more so than in the other person. You know absolutely nothing about my relationship with God or how he works in me. You know only that you and I have some theological differences, differences that do not make you more spiritually gifted than I. If you would move your hand from patting yourself on the back, maybe it would give someone else an opportunity to do so.

Get off your high horse and maybe we can discuss scripture, something that I believe we both know a little bit about, opposed to you discussing me, whom you know absolutely nothing

Your comments: "It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself", are you willing to wager your salvation that you are correct about me, if not zippit...


O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11:33 KJV
You don't know me like that...

I am so sad that you took the discussion into a personal level, rather than getting unto my messages. We should understand that the issues we discuss has a consequential personal impact, even of the things we hold dear the most about ourselves. But, as Paul says, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

I, myself, was oftenly called heretic, but such does not bother me. Rather I am bothered by their behavior. Such who take things on a personal level had already lost the battle even before they begin. When we take things in a personal level our judgments will be clouded, such that everything we hear from the other person is unacceptable, and all we aim is to win. If people cannot see these things happening to them, they would be much worst than what they would not have imagine of themselves.



are you willing to wager your salvation that you are correct about me,

YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!

If you go back again to your OP, the answer I gave would not give you an ounce of idea that I think better of myself, even to anyone. I even believe, from what I quoted in the scripture, that "man has no preeminence above a beast." Never do I exclude myself as man. What ever I say about your hopelessness is actually true also about myself. You should have known this from the very start. My description of the nature of man is such grave that only God can take us out of such miserable state. And that, regardless I claim to be on a better state, you should think that it is God's work, and not me claiming to have, as if, done better than yours. If you think I am saying I am better than you, then you have grossly misunderstood me, and you likely have clouded your judgment about what I was saying.

The issue I was trying to resolve, as we were moving further in our discussion, is "how would we know God is working on us."? I was not considering you and evil, of any sort, but merely explaining about "a person who only have trust" which lead me to explain what it meant to be "under the flesh." Unfortunately, you have taken things to be personal.....and all you seem to see in my talk is that.

dacristoy
05-20-2014, 08:31 AM
I am so sad that you took the discussion into a personal level, rather than getting unto my messages. We should understand that the issues we discuss has a consequential personal impact, even of the things we hold dear the most about ourselves. But, as Paul says, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

I, myself, was oftenly called heretic, but such does not bother me. Rather I am bothered by their behavior. Such who take things on a personal level had already lost the battle even before they begin. When we take things in a personal level our judgments will be clouded, such that everything we hear from the other person is unacceptable, and all we aim is to win. If people cannot see these things happening to them, they would be much worst than what they would not have imagine of themselves.




YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!
With that, I think i'll throw in my hat.

hedrick
05-21-2014, 05:05 AM
I think the original question may be a red herring. Both in the prophets and in Jesus' teachings we see that people are worthy of death because of sin, but that God continues to love them. The primary way of speaking is about God's valuation. It's not that we are worthless or that we still have value. it's that God is committed to us in covenant and still loves us.

The place I can think of where our real value is discussed in Genesis. God created everything, including man and woman, and called it good. Yet in the Noah story God decides that because of sin man isn't worth saving anymore. Noah, however, found favor. But when Noah came out of the ark, God made a covenant with him, and by inheritance, all of mankind, an everlasting covenant. This was not based on some optimistic view that we wouldn't sin again, as is clear in the wording of the passage (cf Gen 8:21). Rather, God established laws to deal with it.

There's not an explicit answer to the original question in that story. It doesn't say that God established an everlasting covenant because he felt that man had a continuing value. But it seems to me that the passage implies that God decided he would not again call us worthless, but would deal with our sin.

dacristoy
05-21-2014, 12:17 PM
I think the original question may be a red herring. Both in the prophets and in Jesus' teachings we see that people are worthy of death because of sin, but that God continues to love them. The primary way of speaking is about God's valuation. It's not that we are worthless or that we still have value. it's that God is committed to us in covenant and still loves us.
All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Because of that, all men have been concluded under sin, and thereby the consequence of sin; which is death, not destruction.. Noteworthy, the consequence of sin was made known even before man sinned.

The place I can think of where our real value is discussed in Genesis. God created everything, including man and woman, and called it good. Yet in the Noah story God decides that because of sin man isn't worth saving anymore.
Not worth saving from death, not destruction… Thoughts negated by his subsequent decision concerning Noah and his family.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
You may want to call it nitpicking on my part, but I fail to see a foundational passage stating that “all men are worthy to be destroyed”. What I see is an action on God’s part that would remedy his disappointment for having created men in the first place because of sin… Death, eternal separation from God, not destruction.
Noah, however, found favor. But when Noah came out of the ark, God made a covenant with him, and by inheritance, all of mankind, an everlasting covenant. This was not based on some optimistic view that we wouldn't sin again, as is clear in the wording of the passage (cf Gen 8:21). Rather, God established laws to deal with it.

There's not an explicit answer to the original question in that story. It doesn't say that God established an everlasting covenant because he felt that man had a continuing value. But it seems to me that the passage implies that God decided he would not again call us worthless, but would deal with our sin.
I agree, no explicit statement that all men are worthy to be destroyed.. Noah excluded….

PS. There is a difference between the meanings of the two words “death and destruction”. Death means separation, destruction means to cease to exist. The wages of sin is death, not destruction…

HeteroDoxic
11-06-2014, 04:24 PM
I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.

Really? THink that claim will hold up to scrutiny? I Think you can turn those verses into DOGMATIC interpretations that don't fit context with little effort.

The church has taught Sin Centric theology for over 450 years. I don't think scritpure backs it up. Fascist scare tactics...

Scrawly
11-06-2014, 05:25 PM
..I Think you can turn those verses into DOGMATIC interpretations..

“There are two kinds of people in the world: the conscious dogmatists and the unconscious dogmatists. I have always found myself that the unconscious dogmatists were by far the most dogmatic.” ―Gilbert K. Chesterton

JohnnyP
11-06-2014, 06:24 PM
Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.

Biblically all men were cursed to die through Adam whether they deserved it sin or not, even Jesus. Although Jesus as fully human was without sin, so he's at least one exception to Romans 3:23. Other exceptions might be little children.

The New Covenant as explained in Jeremiah first says that the curse of Adam is lifted, children no longer die for sins of the father. After that the curse of death for one's own sins is lifted, if we repent and receive mercy. If not we go to destruction in the Lake of Fire as alluded to in Revelation.

So aside from exceptions, I don't think you need a specific verse to say that all who sin deserve destruction, since the Bible as a whole gets to the point that even though we deserve it, we can receive mercy from Jesus to save us from destruction from Adam's sin as well as our own.

37818
11-06-2014, 07:48 PM
Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -- Romans 3:10, 11.

". . . He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. . . ." -- John 3:18-20.

HeteroDoxic
11-07-2014, 08:23 AM
“There are two kinds of people in the world: the conscious dogmatists and the unconscious dogmatists. I have always found myself that the unconscious dogmatists were by far the most dogmatic.” ―Gilbert K. Chesterton

and?

Bring Gilbert in here, I'd love to chat with him.

HeteroDoxic
11-07-2014, 08:24 AM
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -- Romans 3:10, 11.

". . . He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. . . ." -- John 3:18-20.

Just ignore all those verses that say Christ came to make people righteous..... Guess that says a lot about your quest for truth. :P

dacristoy
11-08-2014, 08:09 AM
Biblically all men were cursed to die through Adam whether they deserved it sin or not, even Jesus. Although Jesus as fully human was without sin, so he's at least one exception to Romans 3:23. Other exceptions might be little children.

The New Covenant as explained in Jeremiah first says that the curse of Adam is lifted, children no longer die for sins of the father. After that the curse of death for one's own sins is lifted, if we repent and receive mercy. If not we go to destruction in the Lake of Fire as alluded to in Revelation.

So aside from exceptions, I don't think you need a specific verse to say that all who sin deserve destruction, since the Bible as a whole gets to the point that even though we deserve it, we can receive mercy from Jesus to save us from destruction from Adam's sin as well as our own.

Do you believe that in death men suffer destruction? Is there a difference between the concepts of death and destruction? Destruction negates the concept of eternal judgment.

37818
11-08-2014, 09:50 PM
Just ignore all those verses that say Christ came to make people righteous..... Guess that says a lot about your quest for truth. :PWhat do you mean?

2 Corinthians 5:21. ". . . For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

JohnnyP
11-09-2014, 03:28 PM
Do you believe that in death men suffer destruction? Is there a difference between the concepts of death and destruction? Destruction negates the concept of eternal judgment.

By destruction I mean the Second Death in the Lake of Fire, annihilation not eternal torment.