Amazing Rando's Book Club!

[Amazing Rando]

Announcing! The launch of a brave new endeavor: Amazing Rando's Book Club! :b_woot:

This will (hopefully) become a regular feature of Theology Web in which I or others, will lead in depth discussions of selected books. The books chosen will be quite a variety- novels, scholarly studies, or just about anything you guys would like to talk about- the only requisite guideline is that they be edifying and challenging reading. We will see how the pace of the discussion progresses on each book to determine how many books per month we will read.

In discussion, I'd like to focus on the work in great depth- analyze it not just for quality of writing, but for insight, theme, and very importantly, worldview of the author (which may or may not always match that of the typical evangelical Christian).

So please- sit back, grab a good book, and come prepared to talk about it. And if you have any suggestions for books you'd like to discuss with us, please let me know either here or in a PM.

The first book I'd like to take a look at is Charles Sheldon's 19th century novel of discipleship In His Steps, the novel that inspired the modern day WWJD movement.

You can either check it out from your local library, or purchase it from Amazon.com for $3.99 New, or $0.99 used.

buy In His Steps here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800786084/qid=1076424611/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-0898413-9347309?v=glance&s=books)

Tonight, I will post some background information on In His Steps including a little biographical sketch of Charles Sheldon, the historical context in which the novel was written, and how it launched the modern-day WWJD movement. The book discussion will commence one week from today to give everyone ample time to aquire and read the book. I'll be reading it for the first time along with you. Enjoy! I've heard it's a good one!

[ballplayr412]

Picked it up today at the library. I have a lot of work to do for tomorrow so we'll see if I actually get around to reading any of it today.

[Amazing Rando]

Okay, here we go- some background info on In His Steps, published in 1896 by Charles Sheldon.

I chose this book to begin with not nessesarily because of its literary quality, for I've been told it's only of average quality, but because of its influence. In that way, it's been like Uncle Tom's Cabin- a fairly mediocre novel that has had a tremendous amount of influence. It's a classic novel of Christian discipleship that was the direct inspiration for the modern "What Would Jesus Do?" movement. And now, a brief article on the novel and Sheldon that appeared in Guideposts Magazine back in 1996, the 100th aniversery of the novel's publication.



by Chuck Neighbors

A book that may have changed more lives than any other outside of the Bible has a fascinating history. In His Steps is a novel written by Charles M. Sheldon in 1896. As it celebrates the one hundredth anniversary of its publication, experts have ranked it as the tenth-most-read book in the world.

In simple style, In His Steps tells the story of self-satisfied congregants of a midwestern church who are challenged by a tramp during a Sunday service to live up to their declaration of faith. The tramp then dies in their midst. So moved are the minister and his parishioners that they pledge to live their lives for one year asking themselves, "What would Jesus do?" Their example how they suffered, faced ridicule and emerged victorious inspires other churches throughout the country to do the same.

Reading In His Steps wrought such a profound change in my own life that I, being an actor, was inspired to adapt the book to the stage. I was also driven to delve into the background of this classic. Fortunately, I found a recent biography of Charles Sheldon called Following ln His Steps, written by Timothy Miller (University of Tennessee Press). Much of the information in this article is taken from Millerts fascinating book. I was deeply moved by the life of Charles Sheldon and his remarkable influence.

Charles Monroe Sheldon was born in 1857 and grew up in the Dakota Territory, where his parents homesteaded in a log cabin he helped build. His father was the Territory's first home missionary superintendent, founding 100 churches in 10 years. Young Sheldon "hunted with the Dakotas, fished with them, slept with them on the open prairie, and learned some of their language."

The Sheldons had daily Bible reading and prayer, and Charles gained a deep love of books and learning. After his conversion in a Yankton church, he began writing at age 12, selling his work to a Boston newspaper. It was the beginning of a prodigious lifelong output resulting in dozens of books and hundreds of magazine and newspaper articles. In his freshman year at Brown University, he came to know Lee Wong, his Chinese laundryman,and founded what he said was "the first Sunday school for Chinese laundrymen in Americad." They learned English by studying the Bible.

After graduating from Andover Theological Seminary, he became minister of a church in Waterbury, Conn., and met a young woman, Mary Merriam, who would become his wife. In Waterbury he helped promote neat and attractive housing, small-business assistance and a good local newspaper, as well as Bible study groups. He organized a reading club for young people, ending up with some 100 participants. They read A Tale of Two Cities aloud the first winter and interest ran so high that Sheldon launched a successful drive to create a town library. When more than two dozen townspeople died of typhoid many called it providence but Sheldon, working with a young physician, demonstrated to local folk that the real problem was their wells were too close to pigpens. With clean water, the typhoid epidemic ceased.

In 1889 he moved west to become pastor of the fledgling Central Congregational Church in Topeka, Kan. He announced he would preach "a Christ for the common people. A Christ who belongs to the rich and poor, the ignorant and learned, the old and young, the good and the bad . . . a Christ who bids us all recognize the Brotherhood of the race, who bids throw open this room to all."

For Sheldon this was not just rhetoric. Topeka was in a depression, and full of disheartened men searching for jobs. Determined to know more about the unemployed, Sheldon put on old clothes and spent a week hunting employment. He tried stores, coal yards and mills to no avail. Finally, he joined laborers shoveling snow from the Santa Fe rail yard tracks at no pay for "the simple joy of working."

He took his experience to the pulpit and realized there was much more he needed to learn about the working man. He decided to spend a week with laborers and professionals, "living as nearly as I could the life they lived, asking them questions about their work, and preaching the gospel to them in whatever way might seem most expedient."

And so Topekans found him riding with streetcar operators one week, attending classes with college students the next, traveling on freight trains with rail workers, attending court with lawyers, going on rounds with doctors, working with businessmen, and pursuing a beat as an unpaid reporter for the local paper.

Not only did this deepen Sheldon's empathy with workers, but it also helped his largely above-working class congregation understand them better. And since he invited everyone he worked with to his church the following Sunday to hear his report on them, many came and some stayed.

Probably his most moving experience was one that awakened Sheldon to the ugly reality of racism. He spent three weeks visiting black people in Topeka, learning firsthand the prejudices they faced. He also became acquainted with Tennesseetown, a destitute community just outside Topeka of freed slaves and their children. It was there he launched an innovation that had an effect not only on Topeka but the nation.

In 1892 the idea of kindergartens came to America from Germany. A year later, with the help of his parishioners, Sheldon started two kindergartens, one at his church and one in Tennesseetown, the first black kindergarten west of the Mississippi. It proved a boon for Tennesseetown mothers desperate for day care. Some of the alumni became leaders in the community. Probably the most prominent was Elisha Scott, whom Sheldon helped attend law school. Scott became a respected Topeka attorney as did his son, Charles Sheldon Scott, who in 1954 argued the winning side of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka school desegregation case before the U.S. Supreme Court.

By 1897, Central Church had built a laboratory for one of the first kindergarten-teacher training schools in the nation. Soon its graduates were eagerly snapped up by schools from Maine to Texas.

Sheldon's church continued to flourish as well; by 1891 there were four meetings on Sunday, including an evening service. Sunday evening services attendance was weak, however, and to build it up Sheldon wrote "sermon stories" from which he read a chapter, always ending with a cliffhanger to draw people back the following week. These proved popular, and soon Sunday evening services became crowded. Then in the summer of 1896 he began to write In His Steps. He read the first chapter to his congregation the night of October 4, 1896.

In His Steps proved immensely popular; The Advance, a weekly religious magazine, bought serial rights and in November 1896 began publishing it chapter by chapter. In 1897 The Advance published it as a book and sales skyrocketed. Some critics complained it was too simplistic, but its simplicity seemed to have a powerful effect on readers, many of whom vowed to follow the book's title.

Over the years In His Steps appeared in millions of copies of news papers, comic books, magazines, and was translated into scores of different languages and produced in countless plays. But because of a mix-up in copyright, the book went into public domain, and Sheldon received practically no royalties, what little he did receive he gave to charity. When he was informed by Publishers Weekly that the book had a greater circulation than any other except the Bible, Sheldon said, "No one is more grateful than I am, as it confirms the faith I have always held that no subject is more interesting and vital to the human race than religion."

Sheldon kept on working indefatigably, writing sequels to In His Steps and continuing to put his faith to work. When the owner of the Topeka Daily Capital offered him full rein editing the paper for one week "as Jesus would do it," he labored 13 to 16 hours a day. The Capital's average daily circulation was just over 11,000, but during Sheldon's week it shot up to more than 362,000.

He kept up his community work, even voluntarily spending a week in jail, which resulted in local prison reforms. His fight against prejudice was highlighted in 1939 by his outcry against the Nazi persecution of Jews.

Sheldon retired from his pulpit in 1919, but continued working, becoming editor-in-chief of the Christian Herald in 1920. As he grew older, he spoke with great anticipation of his new life to come: "It is not death but life I greet . . . when he who loves me calls me home."

On February 24, 1946, two days before his eighty-ninth birthday, Charles Sheldon, after suffering a stroke, died peacefully in bed. As I closed the book on his life, I realized Charles Sheldon left us all an enduring legacy with his powerful question, one which I ask myself each time I face a crossroad: What would Jesus do?

Thanks for joining me as I explore this novel for the first time myself. With God's help, we'll discover together the lasting power this novel has to transform lives for Christ. You can probably get the book from your local library or order it from Amazon using the link I gave in my first post. This is gonna be great! I'm giving everybody a week to read the novel- discussion will begin next Wednesday! Thanks for joining me, and I'll see you all in a week!

[Trout]

Hey there Amazing Rando,

I have a question about your book club, Do I have to be able to read in order to join?

[Amazing Rando]

Hey there Amazing Rando,

I have a question about your book club, Do I have to be able to read in order to join?

That would be preferable, Trout. But I suppose you could try and find books on tape and get the same effect!

[truthman]

So, this book discussion on "In His Steps" will begin on Wednesday, February 18th?

I'm excited because I was searching my inventory and I found a nice hardback version of this.

How many chapters should we read? Or, do you want the whole thing read before the 18th?

truthman

[Amazing Rando]

So, this book discussion on "In His Steps" will begin on Wednesday, February 18th?

I'm excited because I was searching my inventory and I found a nice hardback version of this.

How many chapters should we read? Or, do you want the whole thing read before the 18th?

truthman

Hmm. Tell ya what- I didn't give much notice. Let's say first half of the book due for Wednesday the 18th! I'm hoping the discussion can proceed kind of like a high school English class. We shall see!

[Jaltus]

The book can be found here:


In His Steps, Mass Market Edition (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1017747&item_no=83469)

[Amazing Rando]

The book can be found here:


In His Steps, Mass Market Edition (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1017747&item_no=83469)

Wow, Jaltus! $1.99 for the book? Great deal! How'd you swing that?

[truthman]

I've found a whole bunch used on the net, $0.75 to $1.00

PM me for details.

truthman

[Jaltus]

I swung the deal on a NEW BOOK (I hate used books) because we are affiliates with CBD.

[truthman]

I knew you were affiliates with CBD, that's why I didn't post my link publicly.

truthman

[Fideist345]

Wow, Jaltus! $1.99 for the book? Great deal! How'd you swing that?

For those who are either lazy (me) don't want to read or can't afford the book there is this:

http://www.tvbn.com/index.html?

It's under "Jesaus Film", but I didn't try it, so....

Um... I looked :smile: it is not a books-on-tape thing. So, never mind....


Edited to add above warning

[Amazing Rando]

Reminder! First half of In His Steps due for discussion tomorrow evening! Anybody out there going to join me?

[ballplayr412]

I'll be ready. I finished the book over the weekend. I have class from 7-9 so I won't be able to participate during that time.

[Amazing Rando]

All right! So anybody who's been following allong, what do you think of the book so far? We'll start our discussion with some simple surface stuff- what was the most striking thing about the book to you in the first half?

For me, I really appreciated the way it didn't make following Jesus out to be a simple piece of cake like many are wont to do nowadays. It portrayed the inner turmoil of the main characters, including Reverend Maxwell, Rachel Winslow, and Edward Norman.

Also- what did you think of the hobo who kicked the whole revival off? Did he seem like Jesus to you in any way?

And What is your impression of Sheldon's writing quality thus far?

These should be a few good starter questions. Let me know what you think of what you've read thus far!

[ballplayr412]

I liked the book. Like Rando said, being totally sold out to Christ is no walk in the park. It requires sacrifice and I think this was portrayed well in the book. I also like how it shows the power of the Holy Spirit if only we would do what we are called to do in the first place.

I was a little surprised that it seemed to portray only the rich as unwilling to make the sacrifice. Sure its hard for many people of wealth to give it all up but they are not the only stubborn ones. Even middle class-poor people would also view the pledge as too much to lose. It is a decision every one should make.

The hobo at the beginning reminded me of stories where angels posed as needy in order to test people. I'm not sure if Sheldon meant for this character to be the same kind of thing although if I remember correctly he had a family so maybe not. He gave the church a lot more credit than a normal person most likely would. Instead of agressively asking why nobody helped, he asked the question of what a follower of Christ looks like. If I were the hobo I would accuse them of being hypocrites.

I thought the writing quality was pretty good. I'm not an expert of literary quality but it was very easy to follow and kept me interested. I hate it when authors write pages on pages describing one stupid thing like a tree.

I wasn't particularly fond of the switch to the church in Chicago partway through the book. It seemed as if Sheldon had run out of ideas for Raymond so he decided to add a new Chicago scene. It seemed like a spinoff series of the original plot.

Other than that I am very pleased with the book. It definitely initiated some soul-searching on my part and I would recommend it.

[ballplayr412]

Oops, I forgot about only discussing the first part of the book forget what I said about Chicago for all of you who haven't finished. Sorry if I ruined anything.

[Amazing Rando]

Hey ballplayr and anybody else- sorry I haven't been more engaged here- my father died a year ago today, and I wasn't really emotionally up to much today as you can imagine. I promies I'll be back though!

[Amazing Rando]

I liked the book. Like Rando said, being totally sold out to Christ is no walk in the park. It requires sacrifice and I think this was portrayed well in the book. I also like how it shows the power of the Holy Spirit if only we would do what we are called to do in the first place.

Hey, I like the way you put it- "being sold out to Christ." Very interesting word choice! In our culture, being a "sell-out" is usually a bad thing, but when you think about it, I guess that's exactly what the whole Christian path is all about! :smile:

I was a little surprised that it seemed to portray only the rich as unwilling to make the sacrifice. Sure its hard for many people of wealth to give it all up but they are not the only stubborn ones. Even middle class-poor people would also view the pledge as too much to lose. It is a decision every one should make.

Agreed! What did you think about the way the book portrayed "poor people" in general? Remember, it was coming out of a time of theological liberalism (1896)- no, I don't mean liberal Christianity, I mean a times when there was a reawakening in the nation to the plight of the poor, and Christians began to take a strong lead in social betterment programs.

I thought it had a somewhat condescending attitude to the poor. :frown: Maxwell was depicted as having to stoop down to the level of the poor folks when he spoke in the Rectangle tent. I didn't do much research into what kind of family Sheldon came from, but my guess is that he came from a middle or upper-class family.

The hobo at the beginning reminded me of stories where angels posed as needy in order to test people. I'm not sure if Sheldon meant for this character to be the same kind of thing although if I remember correctly he had a family so maybe not. He gave the church a lot more credit than a normal person most likely would. Instead of agressively asking why nobody helped, he asked the question of what a follower of Christ looks like. If I were the hobo I would accuse them of being hypocrites.

The thing that first got me thinking was when Maxwell's wife said the hobo looked "no more than thirty or thirty-three years old." The age reference made me think of Jesus right away, since he was supposed to have been around 30 years old when he began his ministry, and 33 or so when he was crucified. I really liked that- how he didn't launch into a tirade, just an earnest observation and question about what followers of Jesus look like.

I thought the writing quality was pretty good. I'm not an expert of literary quality but it was very easy to follow and kept me interested. I hate it when authors write pages on pages describing one stupid thing like a tree.

:rofl: HA! I know exactly what you're talking about. That's one of the reasons I can't stand reading 19th century British "classics" like Charles Dickens and the Bronte sisters. :argh: I was forced to endure those books in jr high and high school and hated every minute of it! This was at least a fairly entertaining story and not overly descriptive.

I wasn't particularly fond of the switch to the church in Chicago partway through the book. It seemed as if Sheldon had run out of ideas for Raymond so he decided to add a new Chicago scene. It seemed like a spinoff series of the original plot.

Not just yet, we'll get to it! :wink:

Other than that I am very pleased with the book. It definitely initiated some soul-searching on my part and I would recommend it.

Me too! One thing that really bugged me in the early part of the book though was their 19th Century sensibilities as to what Jesus would do. For example, Edward Norman the newspaper editor made some really questionable decisions in my opinion. First, his refusal to publish an account of the prize fight which caused his paper to suffer tremendous losses. Would Jesus really hate boxing that much that he wouldn't publish the story of a boxing match? I don't know. :nsm:

And Rachel Winslow's decision to give up a career as a professional singer- was that really nessesary? It made me wonder just how strict we should be in deciding "WWJD?" What careers would Sheldon approve of as being ones Jesus would do? Some of their choices as to what Jesus would do struck me as kind of extreme and bizarre. Perhaps that just reflects the time period, or perhaps I'm looking at this all wrong. What do you think?

[Amazing Rando]

So... Did anyone else besides ballplayr read the book? It's not too late to join in! And anybody have any suggestions for the next book? I'd like to make the next one not a novel. Something nonfictional, or devotional or scholarly or something.

[ballplayr412]

Hey, I like the way you put it- "being sold out to Christ." Very interesting word choice! In our culture, being a "sell-out" is usually a bad thing, but when you think about it, I guess that's exactly what the whole Christian path is all about! :smile:
Where I'm from being sold out for something is more commonly meant the way I intended which is that everything we do is focused on one thing. I guess the main difference is the word "for."



Agreed! What did you think about the way the book portrayed "poor people" in general? Remember, it was coming out of a time of theological liberalism (1896)- no, I don't mean liberal Christianity, I mean a times when there was a reawakening in the nation to the plight of the poor, and Christians began to take a strong lead in social betterment programs.

I thought it had a somewhat condescending attitude to the poor. :frown: Maxwell was depicted as having to stoop down to the level of the poor folks when he spoke in the Rectangle tent. I didn't do much research into what kind of family Sheldon came from, but my guess is that he came from a middle or upper-class family.

Yeah I noticed this too. Just because they don't have very much money doesn't mean they are any less of people. I think Sheldon was focusing more on the drinking as the cause of their plight and lawlessness rather than money, at least during the rectangle part. But I can see how it could be interpreted like you mentioned. I am curious as to whether Sheldon spent much time with the poor or if he is just guessing as to what it would be like.


The thing that first got me thinking was when Maxwell's wife said the hobo looked "no more than thirty or thirty-three years old." The age reference made me think of Jesus right away, since he was supposed to have been around 30 years old when he began his ministry, and 33 or so when he was crucified. I really liked that- how he didn't launch into a tirade, just an earnest observation and question about what followers of Jesus look like.

Hmm...I didn't think about that. Good parallel.


:rofl: HA! I know exactly what you're talking about. That's one of the reasons I can't stand reading 19th century British "classics" like Charles Dickens and the Bronte sisters. :argh: I was forced to endure those books in jr high and high school and hated every minute of it! This was at least a fairly entertaining story and not overly descriptive.


:rant:The Bronte sisters are horrible in this respect. Jane Eyre was death to get through.



Me too! One thing that really bugged me in the early part of the book though was their 19th Century sensibilities as to what Jesus would do. For example, Edward Norman the newspaper editor made some really questionable decisions in my opinion. First, his refusal to publish an account of the prize fight which caused his paper to suffer tremendous losses. Would Jesus really hate boxing that much that he wouldn't publish the story of a boxing match? I don't know. :nsm:

And Rachel Winslow's decision to give up a career as a professional singer- was that really nessesary? It made me wonder just how strict we should be in deciding "WWJD?" What careers would Sheldon approve of as being ones Jesus would do? Some of their choices as to what Jesus would do struck me as kind of extreme and bizarre. Perhaps that just reflects the time period, or perhaps I'm looking at this all wrong. What do you think?
Well, the Bible says in everything to glorify God. Whatever is pure, lovely, etc. I think they did the right thing by using the gifts they were given to directly serve the Lord. How much good would Rachel do by becoming a famous singer? It would seem to me like she chose to give her gifts to God's glory rather than for her own wealth and popularity.

As for the next book I don't really have any major preferences. I have a whole list of books I want to read eventually but my school library doesn't have any of them. I'm surprised they had the last one. We need to get more people in on the discussion. Where is everyone?

[Amazing Rando]

Hey Ballplayr, thanks so much for following along with me and your excellent insight! It helped me get a better frame of reference when I finished the book. What do you say we wrap this one up and move on to something else? Might get some more participation that way.

So- I'll put a call here for some new ideas for a book to work through. Anybody- what books would interest you guys enough to follow along and join in a discussion with us? Can be novels, historical books, scholarly studies, poetry, you name it! They don't have to be Christian works either. C'mon, let's have some ideas!

[ballplayr412]

Moving on sounds good to me considering I've already finished the book and its due back at the library soon. Maybe next we could read some Shakespeare. The major ones that I haven't read yet are King Lear, Othello, A Midsummer Nights Dream, and possibly others that I can't remember at the moment. I've also heard good things about Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire by Jim Cymbala. The only thing is that my library doesn't have this one and being a poor college student I don't have much money to spend. I'm trying to make fifty dollars last until summer.

[ballplayr412]

Thanks for the reps Rando. I've enjoyed the book club so far. Its an excuse to get off the computer and read some good stuff. Hopefully we'll get someother people involved too.

[Amazing Rando]

Moving on sounds good to me considering I've already finished the book and its due back at the library soon. Maybe next we could read some Shakespeare. The major ones that I haven't read yet are King Lear, Othello, A Midsummer Nights Dream, and possibly others that I can't remember at the moment. I've also heard good things about Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire by Jim Cymbala. The only thing is that my library doesn't have this one and being a poor college student I don't have much money to spend. I'm trying to make fifty dollars last until summer.

That's an awesome idea! Maybe we could do one of the lesser-done Shakespeare plays. In High School English class, we read Hamlet, Othello, R and J, Taming of The Shrew, and Macbeth. Howabout something the "The Tempest?

[ballplayr412]

Tempest sounds good to me. I was near the library today so I picked it up along with screwtape letters.

[Amazing Rando]

Okay- fair warning. Our next book will be The Tempest, by Shakespeare. It's a heavy work, so the discussion will begin a week from Wednesday, on March 10th. I'll post some background info on it in a little while. Let's get a few more folks in on this one than we had on the last one, okay?

[Amazing Rando]

I'm going to have to put the brakes on this for now- I'm being inundated by some RL issues I need to clear up. I won't be ready to discuss the Tempest by Wednesday. :blush: Sorry!

[ballplayr412]

I'm going to have to put the brakes on this for now- I'm being inundated by some RL issues I need to clear up. I won't be ready to discuss the Tempest by Wednesday. :blush: Sorry!


Um yeah, with finals this week, me going home the next week, the book due back at the library in a couple of days, and only have read two scenes I won't be ready for awhile

[Xavier]

Tempest sounds good to me. I was near the library today so I picked it up along with screwtape letters.
Why... Screwtape... What happy luck...

Because that would be my next suggestion for a title in your series... More that a few people (both on TWeb and in RL) have been discussing this book for the last few weeks... I'd love to go through it with Rando and the Book Club... :smile:

I will try to grab a copy of The Tempest soon and catch up...

Yours,
Xavier

[Amazing Rando]

Why... Screwtape... What happy luck...

Because that would be my next suggestion for a title in your series... More that a few people (both on TWeb and in RL) have been discussing this book for the last few weeks... I'd love to go through it with Rando and the Book Club... :smile:

I will try to grab a copy of The Tempest soon and catch up...

Yours,
Xavier

That's an awesome idea- I'm not really in the mood for Shakespeare for some reason. Screwtape Letters much more fun! Okay, it's official. Screwtape Letters will be next book! Everybody go get a copy and let me know once you've procured one!

[Xavier]

Everybody go get a copy and let me know once you've procured one!
I'm putting in notice... :smile:

[Amazing Rando]

I'm putting in notice... :smile:

Hey X, I just ordered the book last night. Should be here in a few days I hope.

[A-Man]

I'll jump in!! :woohoo:

[WillowPeredhel]

Hi!

Either my church library has a copy (which means I'll get it Thursday) or I'll find our copy (I think we have one, but I'm not sure). Anyways, I'll read it too!

Willow

[A-Man]

Rando/Everyone -
I have my copy! Invite your friends!

[WillowPeredhel]

Well, my mum forgot to pick my copy up last night (she goes to church Wednesday nights, but I have to work), so I'll have to pick mine up on Sunday. But I read fast, so it shouldn't be too much of a setback. :smile:

Willow

[Amazing Rando]

I'm still waiting for the copy I ordered. I think it's coming from England, so might be a little while.

[Xavier]

Why did you get it from England??? :huh:

[Xavier]

Ka-:bump:

How's everyone coming along???

The Grace Base has an inexpensive used copy of the Screwtape Letters if anyone is interested...

https://thegracebase.theologyweb.com/product_info.php?products_id=1460&osCsid=435d2ad12b302d3ed7766ee2923d9d06

Yours,
Xavier

[A-Man]

Still patiently waiting!

[Xavier]

Still patiently waiting!
Rando's on a trip and shouldn't get back until later tonight I believe... :smile:

[WillowPeredhel]

Well, my library doesn't have a copy after all. :ahem: So, I will probably get a copy from one of the non-church libraries around here. I'm putting in the request tonight, but it will likely take about a week for me to get it. By that time I'll be REALLY hyped up for Bible Quiz Nationals. It's currently two weeks till Nationals, and I'm right now spending about two hours a day practicing - by that time it'll be 3-4 hours. So, I may not read it much until the 26th, the first weekday after I'm back. But either way I'll be reading it, and I still at least want to follow along on the discussion. :tongue:

Willow

PS - I have a cool 'prayer praise' - my church gave an offering last sunday to raise money for me and three others to go to Nationals. I though I might get 50 dollars - instead it's $350, which covers the trip and then some. :woohoo:

[A-Man]

Congrats, Willow! With the extra dough, you can BUY a copy! :hehe:

[WillowPeredhel]

You know what? I just might...

[Amazing Rando]

It's here! It's here! It's finally here! The copy I ordered from England never made it, but the Grace Base came through for me! Now, let's have us a discussion! Howzabout a letter a day, beginning Monday?

[Xavier]

Works for me... :smile:

[WillowPeredhel]

Works for me, too - my copy is in at the library, but we live in a small town where the library isn't open saturday past noon, or monday at all. So, I will pick it up tuesday and catch up.

Willow

[Xavier]

The first two letters may be found here:
http://www.indiana.edu/~abrwsf/events/screwtape.html (http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eabrwsf/events/screwtape.html)

[WillowPeredhel]

Thanks!

[WillowPeredhel]

:shrug: The link isn't working.

Willow

[Xavier]

:shrug: The link isn't working.

Willow
Try it again later... If not, I'll move the text to my webspace and host it for you... :smile:

[WillowPeredhel]

:woohoo: It works now! Ok, first two letters are read.

Willow

[Amazing Rando]

Discussion of Letter #1 tonight! (Soon as I get home from work!) One letter a day until we're done!

[Amazing Rando]

Good evening all! I hope you've enjoyed The Screwtape Letters thus far. If 1 letter a day is too slow for you guys, just let me know. Thought we could go into a bit of depth this way though.

First of all, did you notice the book's dedication? Yep. To J.R.R. Tolkien. The very same dude who wrote The Lord of the Rings. Lewis and Tolkien were very close friends during their years working together as colleagues in the English Department at Oxford. For the two decades after Lewis became a Christian in 1931, he, Tolkien, and a group of other men who would become literary greats would meet regularly in a local tavern to share stories, fellowship, and their current literary projects. They called their little club "The Inklings." The two things they all had in common were that they were all authors or literature professors, and they were all Christians.

For more good information about C.S. Lewis, check out The C.S. Lewis Foundation (http://www.cslewis.org/about/).

Also- take note of the two quotes Lewis selected to set the tone for this work- one by Sir Thomas Moore, and one by Martin Luther, both about how the devil cannot bear scorn, or endure to be mocked. What did these say to you, even before you started reading the letters? They sorta made me scratch my head, because I thought "Isn't that precisely what the devil tries to do to God?"

I also liked Lewis' prologue. It did an awesome job of setting the scene for what was to come. He remarks, "There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. The first is to disbelievein their existence. The second is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight."

I'll share my thoughts on letter #1 later tonight. First, let's hear some of yours. :smile:

[Xavier]

Right-O...

Things that are important (I think) in reading the Screwtape Letters is to be mindful of the various traps laid for us. You should soon be able to spot these stray thoughts and feelings. You'll be genuinely surprised by some of the tricks Satan will play.

So... I'd like to hit on 3 things I saw in play here:

1) Make other worldviews seem "cool" or "futuristic". Avoid "Truth" at all costs.

College today makes Materialism seem to be a wonderous and great thing. However, I find that Materialism doesn't sit well when subjected to strict deconstruction (like Christianity is constantly). Satan has to avoid "truth" at all costs because "truth" ultimately leads back to THE TRUTH, Christ.

2) Stick to "Real Life" and not abstract consepts like "Life"

I think all to often Christians draw artifical barriers between "Real Life" and "Christian Life". The dicotomy is dangerous, because not having Christ in "Real Life" leaves you exposed to attacks in those moments. Just ask anyone who has a "mask" for Church and a different "mask" for "real life".

3) Pervert Good into Bad.

Without going into philosophical detail, almost ALL evil comes directly from a preversion of good. In the letter, Screwtape takes God's nudging of this is important and perverts it to "so important...". You'll see alot of this in your everyday life. It will start out with a small perversion, but it grows and festers into something really downright evil.

Continuing of the perversion bit, you'll notice throughout the rest of the book that Screwtape is fond of taking titles and practices of God and perverting them to Satan. "Our Father Below" and such. Remember that the "Enemy" here is the Forces of God. My first time through that used to throw me for loops... :hehe:

I hope that you are enjoying this book as much as I am.

Yours,
Xavier

[Amazing Rando]

Those are some good thoughts coming from the Lucifferian of the English Language! :rofl: Let's interact!

Right-O...

Things that are important (I think) in reading the Screwtape Letters is to be mindful of the various traps laid for us. You should soon be able to spot these stray thoughts and feelings. You'll be genuinely surprised by some of the tricks Satan will play.

So... I'd like to hit on 3 things I saw in play here:

1) Make other worldviews seem "cool" or "futuristic". Avoid "Truth" at all costs.

College today makes Materialism seem to be a wonderous and great thing. However, I find that Materialism doesn't sit well when subjected to strict deconstruction (like Christianity is constantly). Satan has to avoid "truth" at all costs because "truth" ultimately leads back to THE TRUTH, Christ.

:yes: This part got me thinking- Screwtape says not to let real argument begin in the patient's head, the insinuation being that (and this is closely connected to number 2), if we begin to think critically, we will eventually be led toward Christ right? The reason he gives for this is because a different mindset is apparent in people of today. Nowadays, we don't easily connect thought with action, while several hundred years ago, there was no break between thought and action. Once you learned the truth, your actions automatically snapped in line with the truth you had learned. This reminds me of the Semitic Totality Concept! Thanks, Tweb for teaching me about that! :teeth:

2) Stick to "Real Life" and not abstract consepts like "Life"

I think all to often Christians draw artifical barriers between "Real Life" and "Christian Life". The dicotomy is dangerous, because not having Christ in "Real Life" leaves you exposed to attacks in those moments. Just ask anyone who has a "mask" for Church and a different "mask" for "real life".

What I thought about when reading this particular point on the dichotomy was the whole issue of perspective. If you keep your eyes focused on the things of this earth (Screwtape's example was his patient's hunger for lunch), we get distracted from the things of heaven. This is not just sin, which is entirely of this world, but this is distraction as well- anything that keeps our minds and hearts focused away from the Lord. Like Paul says in Phillipians- "Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." If we keep a heavenly mindset and fix our eyes on the eternal, we won't succumb to temptation or distraction. Whatcha think?

3) Pervert Good into Bad.

Without going into philosophical detail, almost ALL evil comes directly from a preversion of good. In the letter, Screwtape takes God's nudging of this is important and perverts it to "so important...". You'll see alot of this in your everyday life. It will start out with a small perversion, but it grows and festers into something really downright evil.

Yes... thinking about these weighty issues and Christianity is much too important to do on an empty stomach at the end of the morning! :rofl: That was so sinister! The reaslly sinister part that I saw was the distraction- something little and innocuous that Satan can use to pull us away from our heavenly focus and only "real life," like food!

Continuing of the perversion bit, you'll notice throughout the rest of the book that Screwtape is fond of taking titles and practices of God and perverting them to Satan. "Our Father Below" and such. Remember that the "Enemy" here is the Forces of God. My first time through that used to throw me for loops... :hehe:

I hope that you are enjoying this book as much as I am.

Yours,
Xavier

Hehe. I'm loving it. I read the first couple letters last year in the library, but never went all the way through the book. This is just too good! The dark humor is twisted too! I loved the throwaway line:

"Remember, he is not, like you, a pure spirit. Never having been a human (Oh the abominable advantage of the Enemy!) you don't realize how enslaved they are..." :lmbo:

Tomorrow is Letter number 2. Feel free to post your thoughts on letter number 2 tomorrow, I'll join the discussion after work. :wink:

[WillowPeredhel]

Hi!

It seems that the topics in the first letter are already well covered. The only additional thing I thought of was that distractions from the important things can be used no matter what stage of spiritual life we are in. For that matter, your ability to ignore the non-important distractions when important things are at stake could be a determiner of just how far along you really are.

Going on to the second letter. :smile: The section on the glory of the church made me think, as I haven't really thought about it that way before. Quoting, "the Church as we see her spread out through all time and space and rooted in eternity, terrible as an army with banners." I love the way CS Lewis puts things...

The principle of trials survived producing strength is something that still astounds me. I wonder if it could be compared to excercise and weight training (something I am horrible at but do anyway). It produces some pain for a little while, but the cause of the pain (stretched and very very slightly torn muscles) is what makes you stronger. Only 'trials' are generally those things that we are not willing to go into on our own, but just sort of end up there and then have to lean on God for help during.

Anyway, that's a little OT. I have chores to do... And that's totally OT. :teeth:

Willow

[Amazing Rando]

Hi Willow, thanks for dropping by! I didn't get a chance to post on Letter Number 2 last night, so I'll do so here as well as number 3! Letter 4 tomorrow!

Hi!

It seems that the topics in the first letter are already well covered. The only additional thing I thought of was that distractions from the important things can be used no matter what stage of spiritual life we are in. For that matter, your ability to ignore the non-important distractions when important things are at stake could be a determiner of just how far along you really are.

Yes! That was one enormous thing I picked up on was the idea of distraction... sometimes, Satan's best weapon in his arsenal isn't the temptation to sin, but the temptation to simply neglect our duty for the Lord!

Going on to the second letter. :smile: The section on the glory of the church made me think, as I haven't really thought about it that way before. Quoting, "the Church as we see her spread out through all time and space and rooted in eternity, terrible as an army with banners." I love the way CS Lewis puts things...

Yeah, pure genius, eh? :idea: Did you notice the way he contrasted the glories of the Church (Big C) with the sheer ordinariness of the church (little c)? When he was describing the pew neighbors quirks, like the double chin, the squeaky shoes, and the old lady singing out of tune, that cracked me up, but how painfully true is it?!? I thought of how often I get distracted in church by studying the intricacies of the bald guy's head in front of me, or the squirming infant on the mother's lap next to me (:bomb: "Grrrr! that's why our church has a nursery, lady!" I sometimes think. :rant:) For me, that was a major theme carried over from the first letter.

The principle of trials survived producing strength is something that still astounds me. I wonder if it could be compared to excercise and weight training (something I am horrible at but do anyway). It produces some pain for a little while, but the cause of the pain (stretched and very very slightly torn muscles) is what makes you stronger. Only 'trials' are generally those things that we are not willing to go into on our own, but just sort of end up there and then have to lean on God for help during.

Yep, that was the other major thrust of this letter. I'm not so sure it was pain once the "newness" wears off that Lewis was getting at. I think it was more boredom, or staleness, ya know? I found the disillusionment to be a big factor as well. Once the novelty of being a new Christian wears off, and the person begins to see that, on the surface at least, most Christians aren't the super heroes he or she thought them to be, the person might start to entertain thoughts of hypocracy and feel that the religion is a sham. That's Wormwood's golden opportunity to get his patient back into his clutches! Your analogy of the weight training is pretty good too, because it points out that persistence is critical to building strength, both of faith and of musculature! :smile:

Then there was the whole issue of the freedom the Lord allows in order to make the love between Him and us genuine! I can tell already that Lewis is no Calvinist! :rofl: But I think I've written quite enough on this letter. On to number 3!

Anyway, that's a little OT. I have chores to do... And that's totally OT. :teeth:

Willow

I like OT! Thanks for dropping in, Willow! Hope you stick with us! :highfive:

Some (hopefully) brief thoughts on Letter number 3:

Screwtape gives four ideas to Wormwood to use the relationship between his patient and the mother to his advantage. Strategy #1 is to keep the patient focused on his inner life and ignoring the banalities of life. Am I misunderstanding the point here? Because it seems to me that this is the opposite of what Screwtape suggested in letter #1. In #1, he tells Wormwood to keep the patient's mind off of big, universal issues, and focused on more immediate sensory gratification and "real life." Are these two suggestions in conflict? Because I was quite confused here. Perhaps I'm missing something? :nsm:

Strategy number 2 is to keep the patient's prayers very "spiritual," in other words, pray for his mothers soul, not her rheumatism. This fosters an attitude of spiritual superiority, I suppose, which can lead us into what Lewis calls in Mere Christianity "The Greatest Sin," pride. Screwtape's advice here is intended to exacerbate the chasm between thought and deed already present in the patient. In other words, to keep his thoughts from affecting his behavior.

Strategies 3 and 4 are closely related, and involve increasing the annoyance factor between two people who live together for many years. The two eventually grow to view their own thoughts and actions without a single degree of criticalness, and assume a major "holier than thou" attitude, completely antithetical to the ethos of love for one another they ought to be displaying as disciples of Christ. I'm guilty of this myself- one of my coworkers has an uncanny ability to get under my skin for some reason, through her words and her mannerisms, even when she doesn't mean to. And lately, I've been finding myself judging her, and being rather haughty. It's an ugly attitude I'm trying to stamp out of myself. :frown:

Well, I've rambled on enough sorry bout that. Looking forward to talking about tomorrow's letter! (#4!) Good night, all!

[Xavier]

Closer Thoughts on #2 and #3... (Hooray for Xav's Head... Don't Ask)

Ah... Yes... The Mother...

Crabby, Whiney, the absolutely worst person you could possibly have the pleasure of rooming with in your adult life... :hehe:

The Mother is a reoccuring character so you'll see her again... Usually a bright spot... :wink:

I think one important thing to remember in the transition from #1 to #3 is the fact that the subject is now Christian... :smile:

Onto some brief thoughts on the Methods persented:
Method 1) Under the paradigm shift of Christianity, look at the world is what is encouraged for the Christian. Satan would rather see the selfish desires remain. Keeping our thoughts entirely internal and not spreading the gospel in the world (or even our house) is in his best interest.

Method 2) Before I read Screwtape, I never thought of prayers being influenced from below. However, I found it to be a remarkable insight. If we keep our eyes on making ourselves better or on fixing the faults of others, we've missed out on the power inherent in prayer. Prayer shouldn't be a conduit for own desire, but rather a moment in which we can connect with God.

Method 3) "The Small Things" -- Oh my, the dangers inherent in the "small things"... That annoying habit or that dreadful voice, we allow ourselves to be impacted these things. Personal Moment: One of my "small things" is the fact that my little brother insists on chewing with mouth open. I bear ill-will whenever we eat. Rather than sharing a meal with my family, I'm being disgusted by my brother. Satan will drag you through the "small things". Especially I've noticed when you attempt to be mindful of your own "small things".

Method 4) Much the same as #3, but instead of being an actual event or practice, this is one that we precieve in our minds. Something as simple as using the wrong word or turning on the TV at exactly at the wrong moment. The person didn't intentionally do anything and yet we blow it up in our minds to exhaustive proportions. We must be mindful of keeping things in perspective and in be sensative to others who may have performed the act at the outset.

Yeah... Brief... HA! Onward to tonight's Letter: #4

Lewis's Big Hint #1: PRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lewis's Big Hint #2: STUDY!!!!!!!!!!! (Put stuff in that head...)

The second half of the letter centers around a curious subject. Prayer centered on something. Lewis warns us that Satan is out to have us forget the object of our prayer: Communication with God. All to often we are drawn into the motions of prayer rather than the prayer itself. We consern ourselves with being in the proper position or the proper words. We must avoid that at all costs. Remember your prayers and be prayerful. Don't focus on how you pray. Instead focus on the prayers themselves, being open my God's answers.

And that's all I've got...

Yours,
Xavier

[WillowPeredhel]

Hi!

The one other subject that really interested me in letter #4 was remembering who we are praying to, and avoiding putting Him in a box. I think we talk about 'staying away from the box' a lot, but actually not doing it can be an entirely different matter. I've probably heard it before, but the whole idea of approaching God as (and I quote) "Not to what I think Thou art but to what Thou knowest Thyself to be" really made me think about who I think the God I follow is - and if sometimes I do put Him in a box without realizing it.

Just sort of as a side note, I wonder if the greatest benefit of books like the Screwtape Letters isn't so much the knowledge in them but the fact that the subjects they contain and the way they are presented makes us think about the way we live our lives. Sort of as an antidote to unthinkingly plodding along...

Anyways. :teeth: I'm going to be gone all day tommorow at a Bible Quiz practice (Nationals starts Wednesday! :eek:), so I'll do letter five today too.

Umm, I need more coffee - brain is failing to give an articulate opinion of letter number five. :teeth: I'll stick to the one part that stood out, for me. (Quoting), "Of course, at the precise moment of terror, bereavement, or physical pain, you may catch your man when his reason is temporarily suspended. But even then, if he applies to Enemy headquarters, I have found that the post is nearly always defended." This part is really cool. :teeth: Umm, must speak clearly... I found that it was comforting, when I thought about it, that prayer nearly always brings a response in times of need, fear, etc. Not always the response we would like - but a response nonetheless. I know that I've experienced it myself, that when all seems lost (emotionally), a truly heartfelt prayer will (almost) always bring about some sort of response that seems pretty clearly supernatural.

All right, must leave for more coffee. Hopefully I'll get on and give my opinion of letter six on sunday.

Willow

[Trout]

:rock:

I'd like to complain about Rando's sig line, that banana is simply inapropriate in a library setting, it's far too loud and obnoxious to allow for a quiet time of reading and reflection.

trout

[Amazing Rando]

:rock:

I'd like to complain about Rando's sig line, that banana is simply inapropriate in a library setting, it's far too loud and obnoxious to allow for a quiet time of reading and reflection.

trout

:lmbo:

Hehehe. Dancing banana will never die! :b_woot:

I've been away from Screwtape for quite some time. I'm sorry everyone! I'm awful at keeping schedules that I set myself. :frown: I'm way behind schedule, but I'll post some more tonight.

[dizzle]

Oh Where is Rando!!!!

[Amazing Rando]

Um.... :eek: er.... :shy: well.... :doh: I suck! I'm not so good at keeping committments. :frown: I'm not worthy of my own forum named after me! Arrrrrrrrrrg! :no:

[Amazing Rando]

That and wedding getting in the way and all... :whistle: