Priestly Celibacy

[D.R.R.]

From www.vocation.com:

Abel asks:

I have been seriously discerning a possible vocation for the past year. One issue just seems to keep giving uncomfortable vibes - lifetime celibacy. Until these little tugs started coming to seriously consider the priesthood, I had always seen myself as getting married and I have dated off and on with nothing leading in that direction. As a layman, celibacy seems easy. You don't feel a sense of permanence to it. Of course, I will surely live it if the Lord wants me to be single. Still as a layman there is always the possibility that someday you may meet a nice catholic girl and end up getting married. But as a priest, that's it! I am living celibacy and chastity, but I do like girls. How do candidates for the priesthood turn off the God-given attraction of man to woman? If they can't, am I safe to assume the discernment should end right there?





Dear Abel,

It's just as well you are feeling the way you do. It means first of all that you are normal, secondly that you have up to now been living a good life in the Christian sense, and thirdly that you have your eyes wide open and understand what is implied in God's call.

If God calls you to be a priest you don't (can't) turn off the God-given attraction of man to woman - we are celibate not because God in some way neuters us when he calls us. Celibacy is a gift you offer God each day. It is something you care for and take care of.

The premise for celibacy and chastity was given by Christ in the Gospel, 'for man it is impossible, but for God everything is possible'. What does a weak man do in order to be faithful to this call and gift?

First of all he prays, this is where the change of heart takes place.

Then he learns to appreciate the gift (by reading and reflecting on what the saints have written about their experience, for example).

He purifies himself by resisting temptation with God's help.

He has a spiritual director and is open with him.

He gives marriage and God's plan for man and woman its proper place - he is not showing his love for God by giving up something bad, but by giving up something good.

He avoids circumstances and situations that will play on his weakness (media, especially, and a certain type of friendship).

He makes sure he stays healthy.

He looks for support from his peers.

He uses his time well.

So you see, celibacy is not something that we 'endure', but something we give. In its turn it gives great joy and freedom, and is the source of God's blessings on a priest's work. And do you know what else? It shows people you are in the priesthood not for yourself but for them. God bless.

Fr. Anthony Bannon

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Gospel, 'for man it is impossible, but for God everything is possible'

I think this passage initially referred to whether a rich man could enter the kingdom of God, since it was like a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

Also, isn't the gift of celibacy, a gift? I.e., not all have that gift.

And so then the question is whether or not the gift of leadership and the gift of celibacy go hand in hand in all cases.

As I understand it the Catholic Church historically adopted this cherished tradition at a time when the Church was rife with nepotism. And so one could ask whether the requirement is truly meant for all times and place.

After all Eastern Catholicism allows their priests to be married, so long as they get married first and then become a priest.

Also, consider the consequences of the hypocripsy of making people take the vow of celibacy when they don't have the gift of celibacy.

There are a number of movies, such as the mexican movie "The sins of Father Amaro" that deal with that difficult subject. Another that comes to mind is "In the Name of the Rose".

These movies have some nudity and people committing sinful acts in them so consult your parents first before you consider watching them. If I were your parent I would want to watch them with you so we could discuss them together afterwards.

dlw

[D.R.R.]

Gospel, 'for man it is impossible, but for God everything is possible'

I think this passage initially referred to whether a rich man could enter the kingdom of God, since it was like a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

So it is not possible for God to give persons the grace to remain celibate?




As I understand it the Catholic Church historically adopted this cherished tradition at a time when the Church was rife with nepotism. And so one could ask whether the requirement is truly meant for all times and place.

After all Eastern Catholicism allows their priests to be married, so long as they get married first and then become a priest.

Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, that is, it can change, whereas a doctrine (e.g. immorality of abortion, euthanasia) cannot change.




Also, consider the consequences of the hypocripsy of making people take the vow of celibacy when they don't have the gift of celibacy.

God CALLS men to the priesthood. The priesthood isn't a job, where the person says, "I'd like to do this or that," it's a vocation, a life. At the same time, however, a man must FREELY CHOOSE to respond to God's call. Celibacy is a gift of self. If God calls men to a vocation which requires celibacy, then be sure He will enable them to practice celibacy.

Priests take the vow of celibacy because Christ was celibate. The Bible has much to say for celibacy also.

Why is it so difficult for some to believe that a person could actually remain celibate for his whole life?

"The renunciation of marriage in celibacy for the Kingdom in no way implies fear, repression, or contempt of it. On the contrary, it will only be a pleasing gift to Christ if the candidate to the priesthood recognizes the value of marriage, and if he freely, nobly and generously renounces for Him what he holds to be a great good." (Fr. Marcial Maciel, L.C., Integral Formation of Catholic Priests) The Catholic Church firmly upholds the dignity of marriage.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

So it is not possible for God to give persons the grace to remain celibate?

No, it is possible, but we are not all given the gift of celibacy in that form. We are all given the grace to remain celibate outside of marriage, but that is another issue.


Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, that is, it can change, whereas a doctrine (e.g. immorality of abortion, euthanasia) cannot change.


Okay.


God CALLS men to the priesthood. The priesthood isn't a job, where the person says, "I'd like to do this or that," it's a vocation, a life. At the same time, however, a man must FREELY CHOOSE to respond to God's call. Celibacy is a gift of self. If God calls men to a vocation which requires celibacy, then be sure He will enable them to practice celibacy.

But the issue is whether or not that vocation does require celibacy and we are all called to take up our crosses, though we have different forms of callings in this regard.


Priests take the vow of celibacy because Christ was celibate. The Bible has much to say for celibacy also.

Christ also was a martyr but priests are not mandated to take up the vow of martyrdom. We are not Christ. The Church is built on the rock of Christ. We can aspire to be Christ-like and there are some that have the gift of celibacy and are able to serve God differently because of that gift.


Why is it so difficult for some to believe that a person could actually remain celibate for his whole life?

Because temptation is pervasive in this respect. Marital fidelity is difficult as it is for many people. And because there have historically been many failures by those that took on the vow of celibacy.


"The renunciation of marriage in celibacy for the Kingdom in no way implies fear, repression, or contempt of it. On the contrary, it will only be a pleasing gift to Christ if the candidate to the priesthood recognizes the value of marriage, and if he freely, nobly and generously renounces for Him what he holds to be a great good." (Fr. Marcial Maciel, L.C., Integral Formation of Catholic Priests) The Catholic Church firmly upholds the dignity of marriage.

Absolutely, but then it also comes down to questions of how the Church should be run. In Protestant Churches, there is much voluntarism by lay-people to take up responsibilities that a priest, with no time for a family, would do in Catholic Churches. In my family's church, both my mother and father have held much responsibilities as Deacons/Elders and many other roles. In some ways, my mother has had more responsibilities than my father, often leading the children's ministries and serving on committees to help renovate the church or seek for new pastors and so on...

This voluntarism makes it so the role of a pastor is more as a specialist in understanding of the Bible and Christian tradition than anything else. That leaves him able to have a family and family responsibilities since his level of commitment to the Church is shared by many others.

dlw

[D.R.R.]

No, it is possible, but we are not all given the gift of celibacy in that form. We are all given the grace to remain celibate outside of marriage, but that is another issue.

And the Church does teach that not everyone is called to celibacy. The Body of Christ is comprised of different members with different vocations.




But the issue is whether or not that vocation does require celibacy and we are all called to take up our crosses, though we have different forms of callings in this regard.

With the Church's current discipline, the priesthood does require celibacy.




Christ also was a martyr but priests are not mandated to take up the vow of martyrdom. We are not Christ. The Church is built on the rock of Christ. We can aspire to be Christ-like and there are some that have the gift of celibacy and are able to serve God differently because of that gift.

All Catholics, including priests, have a duty to die for Christ and suffer martyrdom if necessary.




Because temptation is pervasive in this respect. Marital fidelity is difficult as it is for many people. And because there have historically been many failures by those that took on the vow of celibacy.

Like marital fidelity, celibacy is difficult, true. But it is not impossible with the grace of God. There have also historically been many successes by those that took on the vow of celibacy.

The celibacy of Catholic priests is based on the celibacy of Christ.

[rmwilliamsjr]

As I understand it the Catholic Church historically adopted this cherished tradition at a time when the Church was rife with nepotism. And so one could ask whether the requirement is truly meant for all times and place.

You are exactly right. the call to celibacy was a political decision based first on the rollback of nepotism. although our ideas of nepotism do not come close to how bad it was. church property, church offices, up to the papacy were beginning to look like hereditarial property.
the second major impetus was the destruction of the local priests ties to the community, and the eventual involvement of all of his expectations to the institution of the church centered in rome. this is similar to the impetus to enunchs in the chinese government, they could be trusted to do the emperors bidding for they had no future except as pieces of the bureaucracy.

the justifications from scripture are like those justifying american slavery in the antebellum south, useful fictions to support political and economic goals.

[D.R.R.]

You are exactly right. the call to celibacy was a political decision based first on the rollback of nepotism. although our ideas of nepotism do not come close to how bad it was. church property, church offices, up to the papacy were beginning to look like hereditarial property.
the second major impetus was the destruction of the local priests ties to the community, and the eventual involvement of all of his expectations to the institution of the church centered in rome. this is similar to the impetus to enunchs in the chinese government, they could be trusted to do the emperors bidding for they had no future except as pieces of the bureaucracy.

the justifications from scripture are like those justifying american slavery in the antebellum south, useful fictions to support political and economic goals.

So it is wrong for a man to freely choose to give himself totally to God and to imitate Christ through celibacy? What about laymen who remain unmarried their whole life? Are they not called to celibacy?

[Da Lone-Warrior]

So it is wrong for a man to freely choose to give himself totally to God and to imitate Christ through celibacy? What about laymen who remain unmarried their whole life? Are they not called to celibacy?

The issue isn't whether or not celibacy may be chosen by a man or a woman as a way to give themselves to God. The issue is whether such should be mandated for ecclesiastical spiritual leaders or not.

dlw

[Da Lone-Warrior]

And the Church does teach that not everyone is called to celibacy. The Body of Christ is comprised of different members with different vocations.

With the Church's current discipline, the priesthood does require celibacy.

Yes, but how should the Church decide what disciplines to mandate for its priesthood?


All Catholics, including priests, have a duty to die for Christ and suffer martyrdom if necessary.

What does it mean to die for Christ? Many Catholics I know are minimally religious if at all.

This gets back to the issue of the sort of discipline mandated for believers and their ecclesiastical leaders. Christ couldn't have done his ministry, which was spread out over a couple of years I believe, if he was married, but we have very different ministries than Christ. Peter was married and he became the first leader of the Christian Church.


Like marital fidelity, celibacy is difficult, true. But it is not impossible with the grace of God. There have also historically been many successes by those that took on the vow of celibacy.

I agree. And marital fidelity is a form of celibacy. The issue is whether or not such a vow should be mandated on religious leaders for all times and places.


The celibacy of Catholic priests is based on the celibacy of Christ.

The requirement of celibacy for Catholic priests is not universal over Christian history and it is not held by all Catholics. Eastern Catholics, whom the pope has said are valid Catholics, do not mandate this for their priests. I went to a meeting where an Eastern Catholic priest shared about Eastern Catholicism to a group of mostly Roman Catholics. Hence, I can't provide references, but I can insist that it is true.

dlw

[D.R.R.]

The issue isn't whether or not celibacy may be chosen by a man or a woman as a way to give themselves to God. The issue is whether such should be mandated for ecclesiastical spiritual leaders or not.

dlw

Nobody puts a gun to their head. A man freely chooses the priesthood, knowing that this will entail lifelong celibacy, just as a man freely chooses marriage, knowing that this will entail lifelong marital fidelity.

[D.R.R.]

The requirement of celibacy for Catholic priests is not universal over Christian history and it is not held by all Catholics. dlw

That's because celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine.

[rmwilliamsjr]

Nobody puts a gun to their head. A man freely chooses the priesthood, knowing that this will entail lifelong celibacy, just as a man freely chooses marriage, knowing that this will entail lifelong marital fidelity.

the problem is that it conflagates two distinct things.
a call to the ministry
and a call to celibacy.
and in doing so confuses and confounds both issues.

making ONLY celibate men priests means that those called to the ministry but not to celibacy follow their calling to the ministry and 'error' in thinking about and doing sexual things. hence the problems in the RC with not-so-celibate priests. allowing married men to be priests minimizes this serious problem. since the origin of the celibacy for priests issue has nothing to do with the qualifications to be a priest, for if it did there would be no exceptations when in fact there are. so separate the issues and solve the problem of nepotism and loyalty to Rome in another way. or castrate all the priests who are not called to celibacy but to the priesthood, this would biologically reduce their problems with their sex drive.

[D.R.R.]

Celibacy has not caused the probems in the Catholic Church. Sin has caused the problems. The Church is made up of sinners. Celibacy does not mean repression. Only in a culture that has demeaned the purpose of sex to recreation, an idea brought on by the contraceptive mentality , do people not understand the value of celibacy and chastity. Only in a society that believes in "if it feels good do it" does one see the attacks on chastity and celibacy. I suggest you read John Paul II's "Theology of the Body" and consult Sacred Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church for accurate information on human sexuality. As well, one also needs to have an open mind.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Celibacy has not caused the probems in the Catholic Church. Sin has caused the problems. The Church is made up of sinners. Celibacy does not mean repression.

The issue isn't so much that the Church is made up of sinners but whether or not its institutions are chosen in a manner that best lets its light shine before the world.

This gets at the elevation of tradition to the same level of scripture, made after the Protestant-Catholic schism, since to allow for traditions to change would also allow that the rather different traditions adopted by Protestants were also legitimately Christian.


Only in a culture that has demeaned the purpose of sex to recreation, an idea brought on by the contraceptive mentality , do people not understand the value of celibacy and chastity.

I am not sure what you mean by not understanding the value of celibacy and chastity. But that also seems besides the points made above.


Only in a society that believes in "if it feels good do it" does one see the attacks on chastity and celibacy. I suggest you read John Paul II's "Theology of the Body" and consult Sacred Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church for accurate information on human sexuality. As well, one also needs to have an open mind.

One also has to bear in mind what is under discussion.

I realize as a devout Catholic, you hold to the official teachings of your church. That is fine, but bear in mind that such discipline has not always been mandated for priests and that when it was first adopted it was adopted as a stop-gap against a very fallen situation and not necessarily meant to be mandated for all times and places.

dlw

[rmwilliamsjr]

the problem is that it conflagates two distinct things.
a call to the ministry
and a call to celibacy.
and in doing so confuses and confounds both issues.

making ONLY celibate men priests means that those called to the ministry but not to celibacy follow their calling to the ministry and 'error' in thinking about and doing sexual things. hence the problems in the RC with not-so-celibate priests. allowing married men to be priests minimizes this serious problem. since the origin of the celibacy for priests issue has nothing to do with the qualifications to be a priest, for if it did there would be no exceptations when in fact there are. so separate the issues and solve the problem of nepotism and loyalty to Rome in another way. or castrate all the priests who are not called to celibacy but to the priesthood, this would biologically reduce their problems with their sex drive.


i've heard that people think my statement about castration is a little strong. let me expand a little.

this exact problem. centralized control, not so much nepotism, occurred in China. Neopotism is not a problem because in China the accent is/was on the family and the clan not on the individual as in western history. but the question of centralized control becomes even harder because of the diversion of state resources into family hands. Their solution, in part, was enunchs, not to control and guard the women as in Islam, but to run the bureaucracy especially at the higher levels, and secret investigative ways. Most americans have little idea how extensive it was.
i've seen figures like 20,000 in late Qin working in Beijing. coupled with the fact that wartime castration was a common tactic as a means of genocide, (see _when china ruled the seas_) there was a significant number of enunchs in China for most of its history.

Celibacy is usefully, from a sociological perspective, looked at as voluntary (reversible, temporary) castration. But with the attendent problems of control of sexual urges because the testicles continue to produce testosterone, which not a problem with enunchs. And a similiar set of problems it is attempting to solve occurs in most societies like the Chinese, Islamic where you have a hereditarial, absolute power, where they must recruit and incorporate large numbers of people to run the institutions.

The problems of running an institution like the Papacy from Rome, the Islamic caliphate from Bagdad, or the Mandarin controlled Dynasties from Beijing are similiar:
centralized control
trust of bureaucrats especially those at a distance from the center.
diversion of state assets into private hands.
nepotism or family/clan loyalties exceeded loyal to central command figure.
subversion of emperor/pope/caliph directives.

and one tried and true historical means has been celibacy or castration.
this is an analysis, not a prescriptive desire on my part.
for you do not argue from what is(or was) to what ought to be.....

as an aside, and as a matter of completeness.
several other notable methods exist.
first bureaucracies with attendent balance, check of, separation of powers
second, slaves with social death and no hope for the future, see Mamluks of Egypt and the janissaries of the Ottoman Empire at: http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/mil/html/mh_048800_slaverymilit.htm
third, division of empires into smaller more self governing groups responsible for payment of tribute etc.

[Jaltus]

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