Purgatory

[rocketman]

Here is the thread re: Purgatory that Xavier and I discussed in the
"prayer for the dead" thread.

Catholics hold that Purgatory is a necessary state of Purification for most people before they enter Heaven. This is due to the inherently sinful state of men due to Original Sin. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven, and yet no man is clean. Now, men may be made clean during this lifetime, or they may still have a temporal punishment due to their sins that still must be accounted for. As Christ references to in Matt 5:25-26 and Luke 12:58-59, you will not get out "until you have paid the last penny".

Luke 12:47-48 demonstrates that after the Secong Coming, some will receive light beatings from their master and others will receive heavy. But let's consider what we know about Heaven and Hell: In Heaven there are no beatings, and in Hell the torment is everlasting. So this state of temporary punishment is Purgatory.

Philippians 2:10 indicates that "at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth." But those in Hell do not and will not submit themselves to the Lord. So where is this third group of people? Purgatory.

Hebrews 12:23 indicates that those who die in godliness will be "made" perfect. But in Heaven, people are already perfect, and in Hell, they will not be made perfect. So how is one "made" perfect? Through purgation.

The doctrine of Purgation also rectifies a problem in intepreting 1 Peter that many Protestants have. When Jesus went into "prison" to preach the Gospel to those who had already died, He did not go to Hell, for nothing that goes into Hell will ever come out. Rather, these souls were in Purgatory. There they received the Gospel and were made clean, and thus could enter Heaven.

This is just the start. I would like for you guys to respond first, and we can go from there.

[Xavier]

Here is the thread re: Purgatory that Xavier and I discussed in the
"prayer for the dead" thread.

Thanks for starting this thread, Rocketman. This has always been an interesting issue of RC doctrine to me.

Catholics hold that Purgatory is a necessary state of Purification for most people before they enter Heaven. This is due to the inherently sinful state of men due to Original Sin. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven, and yet no man is clean. Now, men may be made clean during this lifetime, or they may still have a temporal punishment due to their sins that still must be accounted for.

Okay, Let me air my philosophical (theological) objection prior to looking at the Biblical text. I question the need for a purification beyond the sacrifice of Christ. It would seem that, while Christ's sacrifice was sufficent to save us from everlasting torment, it somehow doesn't wipe all sin from the record. Now, this could be a misunderstanding of the RC definition of sin. I'll just have to see.

As Christ references to in Matt 5:25-26 and Luke 12:58-59, you will not get out "until you have paid the last penny".

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court.


Christ was refering to civil court proceedings here. I'm not sure how you can argue that it could be figurative since context would say otherwise. Even if it is figurative, I'm also not sure how you could grant that it is a reference to End-Times.


Luke 12:47-48 demonstrates that after the Secong Coming, some will receive light beatings from their master and others will receive heavy. But let's consider what we know about Heaven and Hell: In Heaven there are no beatings, and in Hell the torment is everlasting. So this state of temporary punishment is Purgatory.

Okay, Luke 12 is a good reference. Definiately End-Times. Now, the question becomes who is actually in Purgatory. The text would seem to suggest the idea of inclusivism, which states that those who do not know God's will for their lives, are sent prior to be able to enter heaven. What is the Catholic stance on Inclusivism?

Philippians 2:10 indicates that "at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth." But those in Hell do not and will not submit themselves to the Lord. So where is this third group of people? Purgatory.

Key word being "should" I think... All creatures "should" bend, but that doesn't imply that they willl... (Weak Argument, but the couple of commentaries I have say the same thing).

Hebrews 12:23 indicates that those who die in godliness will be "made" perfect. But in Heaven, people are already perfect, and in Hell, they will not be made perfect. So how is one "made" perfect? Through purgation.

I would suggest that one is made perfect by the redemptive blood of Christ.

The doctrine of Purgation also rectifies a problem in intepreting 1 Peter that many Protestants have. When Jesus went into "prison" to preach the Gospel to those who had already died, He did not go to Hell, for nothing that goes into Hell will ever come out. Rather, these souls were in Purgatory. There they received the Gospel and were made clean, and thus could enter Heaven.

The basic protestant response I've heard in the past is that this refers to the OT saints who in faith looked forward to the sacrifice of Christ. However, Love-Warrior suggested in the other thread that these two phrases refering to Christ in the prison are non-specific and the context doesn't allows us speculation.

This is just the start. I would like for you guys to respond first, and we can go from there.

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this here.

Yours,
Xavier

[Da Lone-Warrior]

reposted from other thread...

Well, if one allows for the deuterocanonical texts some status as the Christian Church did prior to the Protestant-Catholic schism then there is some basis for the doctrine of purgatory and purgatory opens up the possibility that prayers for the dead could abet time spent in purgatory.

Within the context of the NT, I forget the passage that refers to prayers for the dead, but I remember learning in college that it was considered a Hapax. I.e., a passage that appears once or twice but has next to no context and so we can't really be sure what it means and so major doctrine shouldn't be based on it.

I would say though that Jesus does have several examples, such as the parable of the shrewd steward, where he emphasizes the importance of actions made in this lifetime wrt one's relationship with God and so I don't give much credence to notions of purgatory and post-mortem actions to secure someone's salvation.

dlw

ps., I would add that many of the texts from the above seem taken out of context for the implication that they support purgatory.

[Wesley's son]

I believe no defense of Purgatory came be made from the passages in 1st Peter (1st Peter 19,20). It very clearly identifies the spirits in prison being preached to as contemporaries of Noah. To quote verse 20 (from the ESV) "because they [the spirits in prison] formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water." A post-death opportunity for salvation is not indicated anywhere else for any other group of people.

[Jude3b]

Romanism doctrine of Purgatory is a false doctrine

There is no need for further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already been justified by Jesus:
"MUCH MORE THEN, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM." (rOMANS 5:9)

AN HONEST LOVING GOD DOES NOT OFFER ETERNAL LIFE AS A FREE GIFT --THEN MAKE YOU SUFFER TO EARN IT -- AND HE CERTAINLY WOULD NOT LIE ABOUT THAT IN HIS WORD!!!!

Who will you believe, God and His Word, or Romanism and its doctrine that was invented to bring in multiplied millions of dollars to have Masses and prayers said on behalf of departed loved ones suffering in Purgatory?

[Solly]

Here is the thread re: Purgatory that Xavier and I discussed in the
"prayer for the dead" thread.

Catholics hold that Purgatory is a necessary state of Purification for most people before they enter Heaven. This is due to the inherently sinful state of men due to Original Sin. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven, and yet no man is clean. Now, men may be made clean during this lifetime, or they may still have a temporal punishment due to their sins that still must be accounted for. As Christ references to in Matt 5:25-26 and Luke 12:58-59, you will not get out "until you have paid the last penny".

Before commenting on your texts, there should be at least an understanding that protestant and catholic Biblical anthropology are different. For the protestant, we are justified, declared righteous by faith, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, regenerated by him. When we die, it is our bodies, and the remnants of sin, that turn to dust, while the soul/spirit goes to God for a temporary separation, until the body is raised incorruptible, without sin, and reunited to our spirits. Our spirits are not unclean, for they are from God. Only the body is unclean, and that dies.
For the Catholic, IMHO and from my reading, the soul of man is not regenerated, merely reformed, and that imperfectly, hence the idea that thre must be further stages of purification lasting many hundreds of years possibly.
For the protestant, this clearly undermines the doctrine of justification, with its inclusive forgiveness, pardon, adoption, and cleansing.

Luke 12:47-48 demonstrates that after the Secong Coming, some will receive light beatings from their master and others will receive heavy. But let's consider what we know about Heaven and Hell: In Heaven there are no beatings, and in Hell the torment is everlasting. So this state of temporary punishment is Purgatory.
One should always be cautious about building a whole doctrine on a parable, and there is nothing to say this refers to post mortem existence, since it could easily be tied in with Heb 12, and Paul's comments about building materials.

Philippians 2:10 indicates that "at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth." But those in Hell do not and will not submit themselves to the Lord. So where is this third group of people? Purgatory.

sorry, those in hell will submit to the Lord, whether they like it or not. they will recognise, finally that he is God and he is Lord, even of their punishment. the demons believe and tremble, why not sinners.

Hebrews 12:23 indicates that those who die in godliness will be "made" perfect. But in Heaven, people are already perfect, and in Hell, they will not be made perfect. So how is one "made" perfect? Through purgation.
You are assuming the greek word means perfect in the way we use the word, ie pristine condition, rather than completion, fulness, maturity, as any decent Bible dictionary would point out.

The doctrine of Purgation also rectifies a problem in intepreting 1 Peter that many Protestants have. When Jesus went into "prison" to preach the Gospel to those who had already died, He did not go to Hell, for nothing that goes into Hell will ever come out. Rather, these souls were in Purgatory. There they received the Gospel and were made clean, and thus could enter Heaven.
As pointed out above, we don't have a problem with this passage once we get away from the catholic interpretation of it.

[Solly]

Romanism doctrine of Purgatory is a false doctrine

There is no need for further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already been justified by Jesus:
"MUCH MORE THEN, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM." (rOMANS 5:9)

AN HONEST LOVING GOD DOES NOT OFFER ETERNAL LIFE AS A FREE GIFT --THEN MAKE YOU SUFFER TO EARN IT -- AND HE CERTAINLY WOULD NOT LIE ABOUT THAT IN HIS WORD!!!!

Who will you believe, God and His Word, or Romanism and its doctrine that was invented to bring in multiplied millions of dollars to have Masses and prayers said on behalf of departed loved ones suffering in Purgatory?

Jude, in case you are not aware, use of black capitals in posts in the way you have is considered shouting (or shrillness in your case) and is very bad manners and netiquette.

[John Reece]

Before commenting on your texts, there should be at least an understanding that protestant and catholic Biblical anthropology are different. For the protestant, we are justified, declared righteous by faith, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, regenerated by him. When we die, it is our bodies, and the remnants of sin, that turn to dust, while the soul/spirit goes to God for a temporary separation, until the body is raised incorruptible, without sin, and reunited to our spirits. Our spirits are not unclean, for they are from God. Only the body is unclean, and that dies.
For the Catholic, IMHO and from my reading, the soul of man is not regenerated, merely reformed, and that imperfectly, hence the idea that thre must be further stages of purification lasting many hundreds of years possibly.
For the protestant, this clearly undermines the doctrine of justification, with its inclusive forgiveness, pardon, adoption, and cleansing.

One should always be cautious about building a whole doctrine on a parable, and there is nothing to say this refers to post mortem existence, since it could easily be tied in with Heb 12, and Paul's comments about building materials.

sorry, those in hell will submit to the Lord, whether they like it or not. they will recognise, finally that he is God and he is Lord, even of their punishment. the demons believe and tremble, why not sinners.

You are assuming the greek word means perfect in the way we use the word, ie pristine condition, rather than completion, fulness, maturity, as any decent Bible dictionary would point out.

As pointed out above, we don't have a problem with this passage once we get away from the catholic interpretation of it.

:yes:

:thumb:

I still love Roman Catholics, from the Pope to my daughter and my sister and all the RC in-laws. :smile:

[Solly]

Even the Rev Ian Paisley, bête noire of the Irish political scene, has gone on record recently saying, I love Roman Catholics, I just don't like Popery. But I hope the RCCs will allow us to love them enough to let us tell them where we think they are wrong, just as their accetptance of other Christians as separated Brethren allows them to do the same.

[John Reece]

Even the Rev Ian Paisley, bête noire of the Irish political scene, has gone on record recently saying, I love Roman Catholics, I just don't like Popery. But I hope the RCCs will allow us to love them enough to let us tell them where we think they are wrong, just as their accetptance of other Christians as separated Brethren allows them to do the same.

:yes:

[rocketman]

Well, it appears we have some good objections here. I must apologize however, in that I will be taking a break from the board for the next week or so, as I have two tests and two papers due between now and Monday. If cadet or some other Catholic would like to pick up this discussion, please feel free. Otherwise, I must put off posting here until next week, at which time I will be able to respond to all in a full manner, whereas right now I would have to write much less than I could to try to adequately defend the position.

My apologies to all in delaying this matter.

[elysian]

Even the Rev Ian Paisley, bête noire of the Irish political scene, has gone on record recently saying, I love Roman Catholics, I just don't like Popery. But I hope the RCCs will allow us to love them enough to let us tell them where we think they are wrong, just as their accetptance of other Christians as separated Brethren allows them to do the same.

Thanks, Solly. I agree with you on this. Upon close examination Luther abandoned the doctrine of purgatory: that somehow you aren't made "clean enough" by Christ's sacrifice and that you had to suffer after death for a time and other people had to intervene for you to finish the job of "purging" your sinfulness. It seems that the doctrine of purgatory had an economic benefit to the RCC in the sales of indulgences (which were eventually banned) and it persists as a strange vestige (which to Protestants smacks of "justification by works") of an earlier time.

The so-called purgatory (purgatorium, as also the limbus infantium and the limbus patrum), in which, according to papistic doctrine, the souls of believers must expiate the temporal punishments for their sins, is a figment of reason; for Scripture teaches that all believers through faith in Christ obtain (not purgatory, but) eternal life, John 5,24; 3,36. Moreover, it expressly teaches that not only the souls of saints, such as St. Paul and Stephen (Phil. 1,23; Acts 7,59), but also those of great sinners, converted in the last hour, such as the thief on the cross, entered with Christ into paradise, Luke 23,43. (Cp. Luther on purgatory. St. L., II, 2067 ff.) Luther very aptly calls death the “last purgatory” of the Christians, meaning by this that the soul of the believer, after departing in Christ, is wholly free from sin. http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.muellersoul.html

[Jude3b]

I did not know that the use of capital letters was rude. Sorry about that, I was not intending to be rude. Just wanted the Scriptures to be noticed, above the words of man.

Back to Purgatory - it is a false doctrine because:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

[spl_cadet]

I did not know that the use of capital letters was rude. Sorry about that, I was not intending to be rude. Just wanted the Scriptures to be noticed, above the words of man.

Back to Purgatory - it is a false doctrine because:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

Good. Now consider the fact that those who are in purgatory are not condemned.

[Jude3b]

True Christians don't go to any make believe Purgatory. True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross:
"... but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:26).

What an insult it is to Jesus Christ, to say we have to suffer and burn in a purgatory, set up to bring millions of dollars to the Roman Catholic church to have prayers and Masses said on behalf of departed loved ones.

(I Cor. 6:20). Jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe!

[rocketman]

Once again, I must apologize for delaying an answer to this thread. Next week is my Spring Break, so I will present my answer at some point next week. Sorry again for the delay in this matter.

[Xavier]

No Probs... :smile:

[goldenchild]

I am relatively comfortable discussing this topic. For a basis of discussion here is some Scripture to begin with.
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

Isaiah 4:4 "When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning."

B. Malachi 3:2-3 "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he {is} like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: (3) And he shall sit {as} a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

C. Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the {world} to come."

D. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

E. Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither {whatsoever} worketh abomination, or {maketh} a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

[goldenchild]

More verses...
2. Purgatory

Ps 66:12 Mt 12:32 Phil 2:10-11
Ecc 12:14 Lk 16:19-31 1 Thess 3:13
Is 4:4 (cf. Eph 4:8-10; 4:7
6:5-7 1 Pet 3:19-20) 2 Tim 1:16-18
Mic 7:8-9 1 Cor 3:11-15 Heb 12:14
Mal 3:1-4 15:29 (?) 12:29
2 Maccabees 12:39-45 2 Cor 5:10 Rev 5:3,13
Mt 5:25-6 / Lk 12:58-9 7:1 21:27

[Xavier]

KA-:bump:...

RocketMan, are ya handy yet? :smile:

[Jude3b]

Romanism doctrine of Purgatory is a false doctrine

There is no need for further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already been justified by Jesus:
"MUCH MORE THEN, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM." (rOMANS 5:9)

AN HONEST LOVING GOD DOES NOT OFFER ETERNAL LIFE AS A FREE GIFT --THEN MAKE YOU SUFFER TO EARN IT -- AND HE CERTAINLY WOULD NOT LIE ABOUT THAT IN HIS WORD!!!!

Who will you believe, God and His Word, or Romanism and its doctrine that was invented to bring in multiplied millions of dollars to have Masses and prayers said on behalf of departed loved ones suffering in Purgatory?

[Xavier]

Yeah... I read it the first time around...

Notice who that bump was directed to...

[Jude3b]

Precious Roman Catholics, if you are praying for loved ones you believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell you they were there, a group of fallible religious men did.

[elysian]

I believe no defense of Purgatory came be made from the passages in 1st Peter (1st Peter 19,20). It very clearly identifies the spirits in prison being preached to as contemporaries of Noah. To quote verse 20 (from the ESV) "because they [the spirits in prison] formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water." A post-death opportunity for salvation is not indicated anywhere else for any other group of people.

A belief in purgatory implies or assumes that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough- that we have to do something (to suffer, to pay a penalty) in order to be completely "clean." This is contrary to what Jesus Himself promises to those who believe in Him:

John 3:13-14 (NIV)
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

Jesus does not add any caveats such as "believe in Me, and pay a penalty, or believe in me and your friends have to intercede for you." He says "everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life."

Payment for our sin is solely on Jesus' merit and not our own. We do not earn or merit His grace.

Hebrews 7:27 (NIV)
"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."

Hebrews 9:26 (NIV)
"Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."

I can imagine that possibly there was a sort of "holding place" or "prison" in which the souls of those who lived before Jesus may have stayed until His death, then I believe they too were given the opportunity to accept or reject Him. I also believe there could have been the possibility (because for God time is not necessarily linear) that Jesus' sacrifice is valid for all time, and those who died before He came to earth would have been given the opportunity at the moment of death to accept or reject Him.

But for today, we who believe are justified completely by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ- no purgatory, no intercessory prayer for the dead is necessary.

[rocketman]

Hello all.

Xavier, unfortunately, the computer at home over spring break was down...I had very little internet access over the break. I'm now back at college, and can begin posting again.

The first thing I am noticing here is a misunderstanding of what exactly Purgatory is. Purgatory is not a "second chance" at salvation. It is not a "holding place" until the Last Judgment either.

When we sin, there is both a temporal and eternal punishment due to the sin. The eternal punishment is cleared through reconciliation (or, when God absolves you, for those who think Confession is a crock...let's not derail into that discussion, though.) But the temporal punishment remains to be rectified. Temporal punishment can be resolved in this world, but if we do not resolve it, it still has to be taken account of. We will not enter Heaven "until the last penny is paid." We must be perfect and free of all punishment to enter Heaven. Those who die still having to complete temporal punishment (but have no mortal sin on their souls) will be able to enter Heaven: salvation has already been granted to them. But they still have to "pay the last penny", so to speak. Only then, once the temporal punishment due to sin has been rectified, can they enter Heaven.

[Jude3b]

Precious Roman Catholics, if you are praying for loved ones you believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell you they were there, a group of fallible religious men did.

What makes the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares that salvation is a free gift:
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

[Benedict]

What makes the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists.

Yeah, or we could just ignore Golden's substantive post above.

[Jude3b]

What makes the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares that salvation is a free gift:
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

True Christians are already justified by the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore no need for a Roman Catholic purgatory exists.

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)

[Lion]

The Catholic doctrine of hell and purgatory is anchored in the belief that there is some sort of soul that exists apart from the body and goes to its reward immediately after death. If this is true, we are faced with a dilemma. Jesus is the only man who did not sin and his soul should have gone immediately to heaven. But on the resurrection morning the following incident is recorded.

John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus, who had lain in the tomb from before sunset on Friday until early Sunday had not yet ascended to meet his father, What does this tell us about the dead? They are asleep, unconscious of anything that happens in the world.

When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, he said :

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

IF Lazarus had gone to heaven, Jesus would have been most cruel to call him back, but he said he was asleep. Lazarus had no tales to tell of some spirit exisistence he was dead.

This means that the popular belief in an immortal soul is a lie.

[Xavier]

:sigh:... I miss RocketMan.