World events and Escatology

[themuzicman]

Seeing as Iraq is the home of Babylon, which is apparantly where many of the end times events occur or originate, is the pending war, and the UN plan to take over and rebuild Iraq a part of the end times scenario. It seems a bit worriesome to me to have the UN own a country with such a large portion of the world's oil reserves.

Thoughts? Is there someone out there who could be the anti-Christ?

Michael

[efta777]

I would tell you what I think, but I'm assuming that you're probably addressing this primarily to the futurists out there, so I'll keep my big mouth shut.

[Hitch]

If you really think the Holy Spirit inspired the passages that form the basis of this belief why do you find it 'worrisome' to see God's word and will fulfilled?

Thoughts? Is there someone out there who could be the anti-Christ? Hmmmmm If you count up all the jews and muslims and hindus and bhuddist and fillintheblanks I d say there is no shorage of antichrists out there.

take care

Hitch

[David]

yes preterist can have no opinion about the future and future prophecies from scriptures because they look backwards and not forwards.

But in my p[omopm from scriptures.

Iraq is not Babylon the Great as that is America as her religion is materialism is pride and war....and she gets destroyed later by the AC... but not now. http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TwodestructionsofBabylon.html

Now she just brings the world to almost WW3 with her greed for oil, that brings all nations to the Peace Table or the Covenant of Daniel. For then there is 7 years until the return of Jesus in the clouds.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

David

[efta777]

David, just a quick question.
If the world is still around in 50 years and WWIII has not happened and America is not destroyed... Will you change your mind?

[David]

The real question Effta, is why do you think 'All things cntinue as they were' as the mockers to prophesy do.... and why do you think the Lord and his prophecy is null,and void.

And do answer why you don;t study and just post such hypothetical non faith non prophecy comments that violate Jesus words, that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. And that we are not promised tommorrow and are responsible for our actions today to do as much as possible for the Lord and others today. Please answer

But if you don;t know science and what is happenning and current events and what is happenning and the escalation that is happenning as foretold by Daniel, then I can;t help you, and you should be asking yourself why you aren;t changing your mind in the here and now and in the near future.

Why be stubborn and wear such rosy non-prophetic unChristian glasses. Why degrade prophecy when you should be encouraging pople to study it rather than giving them a false peace.

Read the prophecies concerning this in Jeremiah....

For when they say Peace and Safety like you are saying, then sudden destruction cometh upon them.. Shameful shameful.....

David

[themuzicman]

Like Hosea says: The Day of the Lord is not an event you will cheer, for it is terrible.

Michael

Yesterday @ 09:51 PM
Hitch:

If you really think the Holy Spirit inspired the passages that form the basis of this belief why do you find it 'worrisome' to see God's word and will fulfilled?

Thoughts? Is there someone out there who could be the anti-Christ? Hmmmmm If you count up all the jews and muslims and hindus and bhuddist and fillintheblanks I d say there is no shorage of antichrists out there.

take care

Hitch

[David]

Hitch, we definitely will be cheering the day of the Lord for that refers to the Lord's second coming. But as in revelation, the heathen and the religious will have tears in their eyes for they have chosen the world, and the leader of this world the Anti-Christ.

And we will be vindicated and as we rise to meet the Lord in the air. But those left shall be saddenned as the further judgments of God descend upon them for they are worthy and the Lord's judgments are true and righteous.

This is the called the 45 day WRATH of God and Not the Tribulation because the tribulation is 1/3 strength whereas the Wrath is full strength as His vials are poured upon the wicked who have taken the Mark and have without cease persecuted and killed us. http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RevelationsTimeline.html

Its a terrible day of great power but it isn;t terrfying to us for we are aligned with the Lord's power and not to mere wordlly power. Our only tears will be tears of joy

David

[Hitch]

Why be stubborn and wear such rosy non-prophetic unChristian glasses. Why degrade prophecy when you should be encouraging pople to study it rather than giving them a false peace.

Disgusting.

[Hitch]

Today @ 05:23 AM
David:

Hitch, we definitely will be cheering the day of the Lord for that refers to the Lord's second coming. But as in revelation, the heathen and the religious will have tears in their eyes for they have chosen the world, and the leader of this world the Anti-Christ.

And we will be vindicated and as we rise to meet the Lord in the air. But those left shall be saddenned as the further judgments of God descend upon them for they are worthy and the Lord's judgments are true and righteous.

This is the called the 45 day WRATH of God and Not the Tribulation because the tribulation is 1/3 strength whereas the Wrath is full strength as His vials are poured upon the wicked who have taken the Mark and have without cease persecuted and killed us. http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RevelationsTimeline.html

Its a terrible day of great power but it isn;t terrfying to us for we are aligned with the Lord's power and not to mere wordlly power. Our only tears will be tears of joy

David LMAO

[Hitch]

Today @ 01:21 AM
themuzicman:

Like Hosea says: The Day of the Lord is not an event you will cheer, for it is terrible.

Michael

I rather look forward to the return of Christ. But I reckon I'll have that front row,the dead in Christ are raised first seat.

[David]

Yes Hitch, we and all of us, should be looking forward to the Lord's return and hopefully won;t be just watching it, but moving upwards toward himfrom our front row seats.

But it can;t happen until ALL Prophecy is fulfilled ...meaning it can;t happen as the Pre-trib Rapture people believe who errantly think it can happen any day. Why because the whole seven year scenario is not conditional but written and exact and has to happen as spoken by the prophets.

We have to go through Tribulation or die trying, for the Lord returns after the Tribulation of 42 months, times and time and the dividing of time, 1260 days or three and a half years which is so consistently mentioned throughout scriptures

SEE Rapture after the Tribulation http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RaptureAfterTribulation.html

IHS

David

[nonkn4mr]

Seeing as Iraq is the home of Babylon, which is apparantly where many of the end times events occur or originate, is the pending war, and the UN plan to take over and rebuild Iraq a part of the end times scenario. It seems a bit worriesome to me to have the UN own a country with such a large portion of the world's oil reserves.

Thoughts? Is there someone out there who could be the anti-Christ?

Michael

Michael,

I have a couple theories... Bill the liar Clinton... He is very well liked, he started NAFTA, he gets a BJ in office and is congratulated for it where others would be impeached for such an act, he ram rodded the peace treaty between Arafat and Israel (he had to nudge the pm of Israel to shake Arafats hand), Hilary wants to see him as Ambassador to the world, he lied about doing drugs and having sex, and he could have taken out Bin Laden but didnt.

The pope he is German, he is a man of God or claims to be, Rome wants to ressurrect the Roman Empire and he wants to add thou shall not commit road rage as another commandment. The anti christ will rise out of Rome.

Israel is very close to all walls down the current PM is ready to give up the Golan Heights if Syria cuts ties with Hamas and Al Quaeda. We are quickly approaching the false 7 year peace treaty between Israel and Palestine.

Anyway something to think about....

[Ryokan]

oldschool thread. Shockingly, no end times and no anti-christ.

[David_A_Reed]

Seeing as Iraq is the home of Babylon, which is apparantly where many of the end times events occur or originate, is the pending war, and the UN plan to take over and rebuild Iraq a part of the end times scenario. It seems a bit worriesome to me to have the UN own a country with such a large portion of the world's oil reserves.

Thoughts? Is there someone out there who could be the anti-Christ?

MichaelAccording to Martin Luther the papacy and Islam are the two "legs" of Antichrist, and according to John Calvin the papacy and Islam are the two "horns" of Antichrist.

Others who already saw Antichrist in the world include Jonathan Edwards, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Wesley, Roger Williams, Huss, et al.

David

[spauline]

Now, I am sort of in between futurists and preterists. I think that spiritual historicists have the right approach to the apocalypse, in the sense that they understand what is ultimately behind human history: for from the First Fall to the final manifestation of Original Sin, there are the same forces that guide salvation history: sin and grace. So then, the middle of road Protestants who are spiritual historicists rightly understand that what restrains the full conesequences of sin is that at least some truth and grace are accepted by and cooperated with by humanity.

Where they go wrong, of course, is that they are misguided into anti-Catholicism. Now, if in fact the Catholic Church did not truly possess the authority and mission she has claimed for 2000 years, then, in point of fact, there would possibly be some legitimacy to the claims of anti-Catholic Protestant historicists who direct some of the more vile imagery of the apoc at the Catholic Church. But, if, on the other hand, Catholicism does in fact represent the fullness of truth and means of grace for this sinful world, which includes its members, what then would be the implications for a Catholic who would wish to approach the apocalypse from the standpoint of spiritual historicism?

Well, ladies and gentlemen, that is path not very much trodden in the RCC. Most RCC scholars today prefer liberal "coded-comfort resistance literature" or preterism when they respond to Protestants. May be temporarily ecumenical, but in the end, it is essentially refusing to delve into what God must have intended DIvine Revelation to convey on these mysteries. For it is equally useless to know that Russia will start WWIII by blowing up Germany first as it is to know that the war in fall of Jerusalem was five months.

So then, neither the futurists nor the preterists really understand what the relevant questions are regarding the apocalyptc mysteries. No, only spiritual historicists and idealists really grasp what is really to be asked here.

[Lazarus]

Goodness gracious, people! I have enough trouble following the Lord day by day, so I'm not going to worry about how or when the Lord is coming at some future date. The Lord will come when he chooses. In fact, the Lord has already come and we should already be living the life of his kingdom. The rest ; prophecies of an apocalypse, judgement, heaven and hell is just so much foam on the water. If you are unable to see the Lord clearly now, why do you expect to see him more clearly through the fear and trembling of some future apocalypse? Isn't the Lord's present love enough for you?

[spauline]

Goodness gracious, people! I have enough trouble following the Lord day by day, so I'm not going to worry about how or when the Lord is coming at some future date. The Lord will come when he chooses. In fact, the Lord has already come and we should already be living the life of his kingdom. The rest ; prophecies of an apocalypse, judgement, heaven and hell is just so much foam on the water. If you are unable to see the Lord clearly now, why do you expect to see him more clearly through the fear and trembling of some future apocalypse? Isn't the Lord's present love enough for you?


But, Lazarus,

the apocalypse is not about "knowing when Jesus returns" in terms of the literal time. It is about delving into the mystery of salvation history itself, discerning the full implications both of the fullness of the Redemption and when it gives way to the final manifestation of sin. Understanding the spiritual psychology of sin and grace as they move through the Redemptive History.

[Lazarus]

You may be right, Spauline, but when folks speculate that Bill Clinton, or some other poor victim, might be the AntiChrist with what can only be described as a lack of charity, or when the Catholic Church and millions of Muslims are slandered due to prejudice and know - nothingness, then we are no longer talking about the mystery of salvation history or redemption or God's love. The AntiChrist does indeed exist; he exists in each one of us and is brought to life daily through our sin and lack of trust in God's presence among us. I have no problem with seeking to understand "the spiritual psychology of sin and grace as they move through redemption history" as long as we are clear that sin and grace are operative among us now and that the way we relate to others today is a part of that history. I believe the duty of the Christian in the face of the end of time is best illustrated in the response of St. Francis who, while planting flowers, was asked what he would be doing if he knew that the world would end tomorrow and that Christ in all his glory would return in the morning. St. Francis responded that he would be planting flowers.

[spauline]

You may be right, Spauline, but when folks speculate that Bill Clinton, or some other poor victim, might be the AntiChrist with what can only be described as a lack of charity, or when the Catholic Church and millions of Muslims are slandered due to prejudice and know - nothingness, then we are no longer talking about the mystery of salvation history or redemption or God's love. The AntiChrist does indeed exist; he exists in each one of us and is brought to life daily through our sin and lack of trust in God's presence among us. I have no problem with seeking to understand "the spiritual psychology of sin and grace as they move through redemption history" as long as we are clear that sin and grace are operative among us now and that the way we relate to others today is a part of that history. I believe the duty of the Christian in the face of the end of time is best illustrated in the response of St. Francis who, while planting flowers, was asked what he would be doing if he knew that the world would end tomorrow and that Christ in all his glory would return in the morning. St. Francis responded that he would be planting flowers.


Hey, Lazarus,

I never said, go live a cave cuz it's the end. What I am saying is, not only is the grace of God present to me and you individually right in the time we are in, it is also present to history right now. I think Catholics need to begin assessing where we have been in salvation history from a psychological and spiritual perspective so as to better address the current condition we live in, to have hope and to try to delve into the mysteries of what good God may yet bring from the present crisis. And if all Catholics want to do is just regurgitate, "almost all of revelation was fulfilled in the early church", they are essentially committing the same error as the Fundamentalists: God is/has/will be present to EVERY age of Salvation history, not just at the beginning and not just at the end. If anything, your complaint only serves to reinforce the need to bring the apocalypse to bearing where we are at right now in human history, not in the sense of "this is the end, prepare for final judgement", but perhaps even God can reconcile the wounded Chrisitanity and restore the faith. or at least stuff like that.

[Jin-Roh]

The pope he is German, he is a man of God or claims to be, Rome wants to ressurrect the Roman Empire and he wants to add thou shall not commit road rage as another commandment. The anti christ will rise out of Rome.

I'm sorry. All eschatology debates aside, what does the Pope being German have to do with anything?

[Lazarus]

Hey, Lazarus,

I never said, go live a cave cuz it's the end. What I am saying is, not only is the grace of God present to me and you individually right in the time we are in, it is also present to history right now. I think Catholics need to begin assessing where we have been in salvation history from a psychological and spiritual perspective so as to better address the current condition we live in, to have hope and to try to delve into the mysteries of what good God may yet bring from the present crisis. And if all Catholics want to do is just regurgitate, "almost all of revelation was fulfilled in the early church", they are essentially committing the same error as the Fundamentalists: God is/has/will be present to EVERY age of Salvation history, not just at the beginning and not just at the end. If anything, your complaint only serves to reinforce the need to bring the apocalypse to bearing where we are at right now in human history, not in the sense of "this is the end, prepare for final judgement", but perhaps even God can reconcile the wounded Chrisitanity and restore the faith. or at least stuff like that.

Yes, Spauline, I know you did not advocate living in a cave or hiding your head in the sand because the end is near. For one thing, no one knows when the end is coming so it would be a bit self defeating to do such a thing. Secondly, I agree with everything you've written so far. As I've said, I have no problem with talking about the apocalypse or "the rapture" or anything to do with the end of time. I do have a problem with the way some people talk about it. As I said, when people begin speculating about who the AntiChrist might be or what group is to be saved and what group is to be condemned, then we are not that far from pogroms and crusades and other evil acts committed in the name of God. Words have power and we should be careful of how we use them. And one more note to add, it would be wrong for a Catholic or anyone else to say that "almost all revelation was fulfilled in the early church." All revelation was fulfilled in the person and mission of Jesus of Nazareth. The Church is a means through which that revelation is lived and taught in the world, it is not the revelation itself.

[Lazarus]

I'm sorry. All eschatology debates aside, what does the Pope being German have to do with anything?

Jin-Roh, in and of itself, the Pope's nationality has little to do with anything except that it may be a sign that the Church is becoming more aware of its' universal nature. The governing bodies of the Church have long been dominated by Italians. That seems to be changing. The election of John Paul II was a step towards a Church that is more representative of the members of the Church. The election of Benedict may be a further step in that direction. Who knows? The next Pope may be from Asia, South America, or Africa. Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that Catholics believe that papal elections are guided by the Holy Spirit. No matter who is elected in the future, we believe that the Holy Spirit will be with him.

[spauline]

....As I've said, I have no problem with talking about the apocalypse or "the rapture" or anything to do with the end of time. I do have a problem with the way some people talk about it. As I said, when people begin speculating about who the AntiChrist might be or what group is to be saved and what group is to be condemned, then we are not that far from pogroms and crusades and other evil acts committed in the name of God. Words ....lf.
but i don't talk about the end of time or the "rapture", or who the antichrist is. I don't think you've comprehended a single word I've said. the apocalypse has little to do with the "end of time" or the "rapture" or "who" the antichrist will be (or has been).

it is about comprehending and understand the ***great*** spiritual ages of all salvation history, not stupid details about the very end of time.

I don't know, most people seem unable even to grasp what "spiritual historicism" means. Fundamentalists have all but ruined, through their stigmas, the ability of normal persons to even comprehend what the apoc is really about, or even for that matter, for persons to even care what the apocalypse is about.

[Amazing Rando]

Seeing as Iraq is the home of Babylon, which is apparantly where many of the end times events occur or originate, is the pending war, and the UN plan to take over and rebuild Iraq a part of the end times scenario. It seems a bit worriesome to me to have the UN own a country with such a large portion of the world's oil reserves.

Thoughts? Is there someone out there who could be the anti-Christ?

Michael

Woah- Hey Muz- I bet this is one of those posts you feel a little silly about four years later, eh?

[Lazarus]

but i don't talk about the end of time or the "rapture", or who the antichrist is. I don't think you've comprehended a single word I've said. the apocalypse has little to do with the "end of time" or the "rapture" or "who" the antichrist will be (or has been).

it is about comprehending and understand the ***great*** spiritual ages of all salvation history, not stupid details about the very end of time.

I don't know, most people seem unable even to grasp what "spiritual historicism" means. Fundamentalists have all but ruined, through their stigmas, the ability of normal persons to even comprehend what the apoc is really about, or even for that matter, for persons to even care what the apocalypse is about.

Spauline, I feel fairly certain that I've understood at least a single word of what you've said, but hey, I'm all ears. What does "spiritual historicism" mean and how does it help us "comprehend what the apoc is really about?" And no, I'm not being smug. I'm sincerely asking to hear your views.

[Jin-Roh]

Jin-Roh, in and of itself, the Pope's nationality has little to do with anything except that it may be a sign that the Church is becoming more aware of its' universal nature. The governing bodies of the Church have long been dominated by Italians. That seems to be changing. The election of John Paul II was a step towards a Church that is more representative of the members of the Church. The election of Benedict may be a further step in that direction. Who knows? The next Pope may be from Asia, South America, or Africa. Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that Catholics believe that papal elections are guided by the Holy Spirit. No matter who is elected in the future, we believe that the Holy Spirit will be with him.

Lazarus, the significance that an RCC might attach to the Pope's nationality makes a lot of sense. However, I was wondering what nonk's speculations had to say about it.

[Kelp(p)]

Is Nonk even an active member anymore? This is an old thread. :shrug:

[spauline]

Spauline, I feel fairly certain that I've understood at least a single word of what you've said, but hey, I'm all ears. What does "spiritual historicism" mean and how does it help us "comprehend what the apoc is really about?" And no, I'm not being smug. I'm sincerely asking to hear your views.


OK, maybe I'm being too harsh. You understand some of it. To explain what the apoc is really about, you would need to know the jist of the the restrainer stuff in 2 Thess. 2: the full consequences of iniquity are impeded or restrained by the Redemptive action of God (the Holy Spirit). At the very end, the fallen nature will reign once again as it did prior to the Flood. But before that happens, there will be the "fullness of the Gentiles", meaning the fullness of the Redemption amongst the Gentiles. It is the precise nature of what this will be that is debated. hence, you have augustinian pessimists (the near totality of the Gentiles can never fully embrace the Gospel because there are always lots of weeds in the wheat). But the mystics in general don't agree: there will be an intermediate apostasy and tribulation in Church history that will restore Christian unity and extend the Gospel throughout the near whole of the world before the times of the very end.

The mystery then involves analyzing these questions deeper. and since ecclesiological rifts are a major obstacle to the reception of the Gospel, ecclesiological history and questions are deeply involved here.

Don't know if this helps, Lazarus.


Either way, I pray God Bless you!
scott

[Lazarus]

Thanks, spauline. Yes, it does help, but I admit there is much about the subject I'm ignorant of. You've given me a good place to start, however, and I will continue to research the subject. Your prayers are very much appreciated and, I assure you, as a brother in Christ, my prayers are with you, too.
Gary

[maudman]

OK, maybe I'm being too harsh. You understand some of it. To explain what the apoc is really about, you would need to know the jist of the the restrainer stuff in 2 Thess. 2: the full consequences of iniquity are impeded or restrained by the Redemptive action of God (the Holy Spirit).

Either way, I pray God Bless you!
scott

Hey Spauline

YOur correct, 2 Thess goes to the heart of the matter at hand.

I wish I could explain it to you, but I can't in a public forum...... at least not yet! Oh my how terribly Cleaver is our God.

Hint: the truth is in the dynamic Equivelences of the translation.

Peace and God bless Bro

[spauline]

Thanks, spauline. Yes, it does help, but I admit there is much about the subject I'm ignorant of. You've given me a good place to start, however, and I will continue to research the subject. Your prayers are very much appreciated and, I assure you, as a brother in Christ, my prayers are with you, too.
Gary


thank you, Gary, for your reciprocal support.

:pray: :smile:

[spauline]

Hey Spauline

YOur correct, 2 Thess goes to the heart of the matter at hand.

I wish I could explain it to you, but I can't in a public forum...... at least not yet! Oh my how terribly Cleaver is our God.

Hint: the truth is in the dynamic Equivelences of the translation.

Peace and God bless Bro


thank you for your kind words and support, maudman. maybe you can explain it to me offline in our private email, if you intimidated in public.

:smile: