Worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24)

[Spiritus Naturae]

I agree that a great deal of the problem is what exactly is the spirit and truth that our Lord speaks of (John 4:24)? So many people believe that worship can be encapsulated, if you will, into 5 acts. Where does one find scriptural authority for that? The truth of the matter is nowhere in scripture do we see 5 acts of worship and those who seek it tend to lose the point of Christs revelation to the woman at the well and to the rest of us.

I like to challenge folks to read in context all the references to worship in scripture and get a real understanding of just what the word 'worship' means and then explain how one arrives at "5 acts of worship" or even justification for an arguement regarding "non-instrumental/instrumental" worship.


Jonathan :innocent:

(A some what 'similair' post can be found at http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?p=438982#post438982 )

[elysian]

I agree that a great deal of the problem is what exactly is the spirit and truth that our Lord speaks of (John 4:24)? So many people believe that worship can be encapsulated, if you will, into 5 acts. Where does one find scriptural authority for that? The truth of the matter is nowhere in scripture do we see 5 acts of worship and those who seek it tend to lose the point of Christs revelation to the woman at the well and to the rest of us.

I like to challenge folks to read in context all the references to worship in scripture and get a real understanding of just what the word 'worship'
means and then explain how one arrives at "5 acts of worship" or even justification for an arguement regarding "non-instrumental/instrumental" worship.


Jonathan :innocent:

(A some what 'similair' post can be found at http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?p=438982#post438982 )

First of all I've never understood the "no instrumental music" hangup that some churches have, when the the use of instruments was integral to worship in the OT:

1 Chronicles 23:5 (NIV)
"Four thousand are to be gatekeepers and four thousand are to praise the LORD with the musical instruments I have provided for that purpose."

2 Chronicles 5:13-14 (NIV)
The trumpeters and singers joined in unison, as with one voice, to give praise and thanks to the LORD . Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang: "He is good; his love endures forever." Then the temple of the LORD was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the temple of God.

Also the Psalms speak of using instruments in worship, and are believed to have been set to music (instruments and voices.):

Psalm 68:25 (NIV)
"In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are the maidens playing tambourines"
Psalm 81:2 (NIV)
"Begin the music, strike the tambourine, play the melodious harp and lyre"

Psalm 149:3 (NIV)
"Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp. "

Admittedly I am biased toward music in worship and believe music to be integral to worship. I am predisposed to believe also that if David had lived in today's times he wouldn't have just played a harp- he may possibly have been a guitarist :smile:

As far as five acts of worship, that is probably getting more into spiritual disciplines or forms of prayer: supplication, thanksgiving, praise, intercession and a lesson or contemplation. Spiritual disciplines and even forms of liturgy are intended to put our focus on God- our eyes and hearts on Him. If the discipline or the liturgy isn't doing that, putting us in the right heart-mode for worship, then the form is not serving its purpose. (I'm Lutheran, and I find the liturgy helpful in putting my focus on God, where it belongs, but I am aware that liturgy is too formal or constrained for some people, which is why God gave us so many pathways to worship Him- liturgy is only one of them!) The point is not to get so hung up on the form of worship that we simply go through the motions on auto-pilot and forget that worship must come from the heart or it isn't worship.

Isaiah warns us about auto-pilot "worship" here:

Isaiah 29:13 (NIV)
"The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men."

Jesus tells us this as well, as he warns the Pharisees that following the rules on the outside doesn't get it, that we must surrender to Jesus and be made clean on the inside:

Luke 11:39-40 (NIV)
"Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"


I hope this helps.

[Johann]

I have no comment as of right now on the use of mechanical instruments but I would like to make 2 points on the issues of spirit and truth. Or maybe 3 points.
In the original language, it has been said the more literal phrase would be "in true spirit". Thats point #1,
Point #2 is this: You're very right about the absurdity of worship being boiled down into so many, say 5, acts. That kind of minimalism is just not right.
However, point #3, most folks talking about the 5 acts of worship and how they disagree with it make an error in the other direction. They usually are under the assumption that some form of sentiment/emotion is 'spiritual' worship. This is of course, wrong. For God is spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit. And spirit by definition is NOT flesh and bones. Emotion on the other hand is organic and not spiritual but carnal...

Johann

[Spiritus Naturae]

I have no comment as of right now on the use of mechanical instruments but I would like to make 2 points on the issues of spirit and truth. Or maybe 3 points.
In the original language, it has been said the more literal phrase would be "in true spirit". Thats point #1,
Point #2 is this: You're very right about the absurdity of worship being boiled down into so many, say 5, acts. That kind of minimalism is just not right.
However, point #3, most folks talking about the 5 acts of worship and how they disagree with it make an error in the other direction. They usually are under the assumption that some form of sentiment/emotion is 'spiritual' worship. This is of course, wrong. For God is spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit. And spirit by definition is NOT flesh and bones. Emotion on the other hand is organic and not spiritual but carnal...

Johann

I disagree with point 3. What exactly do you mean by, "Emotion on the other hand is organic and not spiritual but carnal..."? In scripture time and again we see the fruit of the Spirit very clearly in an emotional context. BUT the emotion is a by-product of being 'in the Spirit', not simply emotionalism for show or affectation. I think your statement maybe a bit too broad. If you feel absolutely nothing when you worship the God of all creation, something is certainly very wrong. :hrm: Especially in light of considering and understanding what He has done for us.

Actual and sincere awe and adoration (uh-oh...don't get too "emotional") for the Creator, for our Lord and Saviour, is what true worship (aka service) ought to be. Emotions (not sentimentality or "warm-fuzzies"), while not the sole basis of our worship, would obviously and certainly be an evidence of true worship and adoration, being a distinct contrast to empty "route and routine".

Jonathan :innocent:

[elysian]

BUT the emotion is a by-product of being 'in the Spirit', not simply emotionalism for show or affectation. I think your statement maybe a bit too broad. If you feel absolutely nothing when you worship the God of all creation, something is certainly very wrong. :hrm: Especially in light of considering and understanding what He has done for us.

Actual and sincere awe and adoration (uh-oh...don't get too "emotional") for the Creator, for our Lord and Saviour, is what true worship (aka service) ought to be. Emotions (not sentimentality or "warm-fuzzies"), while not the sole basis of our worship, would obviously and certainly be an evidence of true worship and adoration, being a distinct contrast to empty "route and routine".

Jonathan :innocent:

There's a difference between mere sentimentality and genuine worship- but I think you're right on target saying that the emotion is or can be the end result not but not the reason for worship. It is a question of balance- we need the spiritual disciplines to help direct our focus on God (not to become an empty ritual or so we get trapped into "going through the motions.") But the discipline and doctrine without the fire and passion is dead. There is a balance between the two.

[Spiritus Naturae]

There's a difference between mere sentimentality and genuine worship- but I think you're right on target saying that the emotion is or can be the end result not but not the reason for worship. It is a question of balance- we need the spiritual disciplines to help direct our focus on God (not to become an empty ritual or so we get trapped into "going through the motions.") But the discipline and doctrine without the fire and passion is dead. There is a balance between the two.

Very true. It's important to keep in mind what brings us to worship the LORD in the first place. He is worthy and ONLY He is worthy of our worship, our love and devotion. We don't worship (at least I hope we don't) simply because it's what is required of us, we don't give our lives to the service and worship of the LORD because we have to but rather because the intent of our hearts is that we want or desire to. God certainly does not need our worship, but we certainly need to worship Him.
True Worship begins with nothing less than every ounce and fiber and strength of our total being.

Jonathan :innocent:

[Spiritus Naturae]

I agree that a great deal of the problem is what exactly is the spirit and truth that our Lord speaks of (John 4:24)? So many people believe that worship can be encapsulated, if you will, into 5 acts. Where does one find scriptural authority for that? The truth of the matter is nowhere in scripture do we see 5 acts of worship and those who seek it tend to lose the point of Christs revelation to the woman at the well and to the rest of us.

I like to challenge folks to read in context all the references to worship in scripture and get a real understanding of just what the word 'worship' means and then explain how one arrives at "5 acts of worship" or even justification for an arguement regarding "non-instrumental/instrumental" worship.


Jonathan :innocent:



Xavier was kind enough to repost this here thread in the more appropriate Ecclesiology 201 Dept. Any takers?