A Shocker For Most of You: The World Doesn't Care About Preterism

[Freak]

As some of you might be aware, I just arrived back from a week long mission venture in Haiti. Many thousands attended our public meetings. In fact, over 4,000 attended the last night and on top of that we held a pastor's conference. Pastors from all over the country came from all different denominations-Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, Pentacostal, etc. and not one brought up the subject of end times. It's not a interest. They believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ and believe in the future hope but outside of those basics they had no interest in end times or the various end times views like preterism.

I have traveled to nearly 30 nations of this world and have yet had one pastor ask me about my view on end times. Granted, most of the places I visited were third world nations but the fact remains---preterism is a faddish American concept/theory. Billions in the rest of the world could care less. They would rather get something to eat or a roof over their head then an explanation on preterism. We have become so Amercian centric we have lost sight of the bigger picture. They need Jesus not preterism. TWEB seems to have their share of preterists and I hear all this talk about preterim yet in the world at large--there is a collective sigh to this subject. Why? Because it is irrelevant in the large picture of things. Irrelevant you ask? Yes, irrelevant. People are hungry, people are going to a Christless eternity, people are living in constant fear of their lives due to civil war, people are ravaged with the HIV virus, etc....people could care less......

But if you come to bring the Gospel--thousands will come to hear! They want to hear the basic message that Jesus saves! Many of them are uneducated they wouldn't be able to follow all these difficult concepts that preterism teaches. But they understand Jesus saves and forgives sins.

Lest we forget, the world could care less about preterism. Perhaps a awakening to this will help put things in perspective.

[Hitch]

yawn,,, when I wake up I'll make sure to always ask you what I should be interested in. After all God didnt create us with different abilities and interests. He left us all to the perils of the Fall and kept you above us so we would have something to aspire to. I know this is true because the last conference I attended all the pastors wanted to know was what does Freak think we should talk about? It was inspireing...

But please one question?


How many futurist boards have you blessed with similar sermonizing?

Take care

Hitch

[Freak]

Today @ 05:48 AM
Hitch:

yawn,,, when I wake up I'll make sure to always ask you what I should be interested in. After all God didnt create us with different abilities and interests. He left us all to the perils of the Fall and kept you above us so we would have something to aspire to. I know this is true because the last conference I attended all the pastors wanted to know was what does Freak think we should talk about? It was inspireing...

But please one question?


How many futurist boards have you blessed with similar sermonizing?

Take care

Hitch

You asked: How many futurist boards have you blessed with similar sermonizing? None!

What you should be interested in you ask?

Jesus. May sound simple but its the truth.

I was making an observation of the reality that preterism being a non-issue with the body of Christ throughout the world. The world cares less.

Perhaps a wake call is needed my friend of what truly is important.

[Hitch]

You asked: How many futurist boards have you blessed with similar sermonizing? None!

No more questions.

H

[Freak]

Today @ 06:02 AM
Hitch:

You asked: How many futurist boards have you blessed with similar sermonizing? None!

No more questions.

H

Great.



:yipee:

[efta777]

Freak,
So am I sinning by finding a subject that I feel somewhat passionately about and which comprises over 1/3 of the entire word of God and studying it? When I find something that I believe to be true and use it to bring glory to God is that wrong just because there are people who aren't interested in it?

I have done quite a bit of missionary work, Freak, and I believe that in foreign missions, the basics are the most important thing to understand, but some of us aren't out there constantly in third world countries feeding the hungry and needy. Rather, I'm here in America trying to gain a more accurate understanding of the word of God while you're telling me that I'm wrong in doing this.

[Freak]

Today @ 08:45 AM
efta777:

Freak,
So am I sinning by finding a subject that I feel somewhat passionately about and which comprises over 1/3 of the entire word of God and studying it? When I find something that I believe to be true and use it to bring glory to God is that wrong just because there are people who aren't interested in it?

I have done quite a bit of missionary work, Freak, and I believe that in foreign missions, the basics are the most important thing to understand, but some of us aren't out there constantly in third world countries feeding the hungry and needy. Rather, I'm here in America trying to gain a more accurate understanding of the word of God while you're telling me that I'm wrong in doing this.

Please do not misunderstand me. I was merely making an observation.

No, preterism is not taught "over 1/3" of the Bible. That is simply untrue.

I'm not saying minor issues are not important. But they are not as important as say understanding the nature of God or how one is saved. This is what is called essential Christianity. You need to examine if you are elevating a minor issue (preterism) over essential issues. Besides, I was merely making some personal oberservations. Preterism is not an important issue here in America. I have yet visited a church in America (and I have traveled to over 40 states) or a group of believers (besides here online) that were concerned about preterism. Even in America-this is a non-issue. Believers are more concerned about how to provide for their families, raising their children, loving their spouse, trying to get a good job, sharing their faith in Jesus, etc..

Efta, I know it may shock you but preterism is irrelevant to most believers. It's another end time view among dozens. You claim it's true-others say your wrong. There is a great disagreement over the issues of end times. You'll discover asyou get older that these issues are of minor importance in comparison to walking with Jesus in love and faith, raising your children to know Jesus, loving your spouse, sharing the Gospel, etc...

Am I telling your wrong for embracing preterism. Nope! Never said that. I was merely asking everyone to peer outside the bubble many of you are in and recognize that preterim is a non-issue. Who cares what you believe about it....when men and woman are about to die serving our country in Iraq...preterism becomes a minor issue. That's all I'm saying.

[Darth Xena]

Hey I'm just happy to see Freak post in eschatology. One correction, approximately 35% is prophecy so technically speaking (very loosely), if preterism is correct, aobu 1/3 of the Bible is directly affected. Of course if futurism is correct, the same thing is true. I think God certainly does want us to be interested ikn what 35% of the Bible has to say. The Bible says a whole lot more about preterism or futurism than it does about demonology.

[Darth Xena]

http://www.credenda.org/issues/9-2eschaton.php

Volume 9, Issue 2: Eschaton

Does Eschatology Matter?

Jack Van Deventer

Have you ever heard someone say that studying eschatology is a waste of time? It is not uncommon for evangelicals to dismiss the biblical teachings of prophecy as irrelevant or unimportant. "It doesn't affect one's Christian life one way or another, so why should I bother with it?" Often the unspoken implication of such a statement is "Why should you bother with it either?"

Why is the study of eschatology important? First, the Bible is given to us that we might know God and His will. Anything God has chosen to reveal to us is certainly worth studying. It seems odd, therefore, that Christians would opt to downplay certain parts of God's revelation as irrelevant. Second, while eschatology may not be among the essential doctrines of the faith, neither is it unimportant. Barton Payne estimated that 38% of the Bible deals with prophecy, which is not an insignificant amount. Third, eschatology deals with God's plan in human history. How can anyone say that God's plan for the human race has no effect on one's life?

Sometimes one hears a conversation that goes something like this:

Person A: "Oh, I see that you are convinced of (fill in the blank: Pre-,Post-, or A-) millennialism. That's all well and good, but why do you waste your time?"

Person B: "Oh . . . what is your eschatological persuasion?"

Person A: "I'm a panmillennialist."

Person B: "Huh?"

Person A: "I believe God will make it all `pan out' in the end."

There are those who use the "panmillennial" line innocently enough. They are eschatological agnostics who have not adopted an eschatological position. There are others who use the phrase in a scoffing sense. They are the ones who have concluded that God's course for human history is unknowable and, as such, they believe that those who hold to a particular millennial view are naive and lacking perspective. Or perhaps the panmillennialist believes the subject matter is too unimportant for his attention. In either case there can be an air of superiority on the part of the panmillennialist. I tend to have greater respect for a brother who can articulate a particular millennial viewpoint from the Scriptures (even if I disagree with his use of the Bible) than I do for those who presume that God has left us in the dark on such issues.

In general, I find those who claim that eschatology has no effect on one's lifestyle to be those with a pessimistic view of the future. This claim seems to me a form of denial, like an investor who denies the possibility of loss in the stock market or a Californian who disregards the possibility of a major earthquake. In contrast to the denial that eschatology has no effect on lifestyle, other pessimists believe the increasing evil will result in unprecedented temptations away from godliness and they have resolved to remain obedient despite the cost. One pastor told me, "We're going down, but we'll go down fighting!" Even here the presumption of inevitable doom, despite the well-intended obedience, has deep implications.

Knowing that prophecy affected the way people behaved, the leaders of the fledgling dispensational movement in the 1800's intended to use premillennial eschatology as a club to wake up the backslidden church and to call sinners to repentance. Despite believing in an irreversible decline in society, they had hoped that preaching an "any moment" return of Christ would awake a moribund Church. The result, as described by a premillennialist, is more of the same: "twentieth-century premillennialists tend to be pessimistic, fatalistic, nonpolitical, and nonactivist."

It is hard to imagine an area of life that is not touched by eschatology. A pessimist will plan for the short term, an optimist for the long term. Do you disciple your children in such a way that they will know how to disciple their children? Or do you believe as many do that we are in the "terminal generation"? Do you educate your children the same way? Do you save your money with your children's children in mind (Prov. 13:22)? If you believe the end is near, why should you save? (How many churches and individuals, convinced of an imminent rapture, have accumulated indebtedness believing they will never have to pay back their debt in full?) Do you work toward progressive sanctification in your life, in your family, in your work, in your neighborhood, in your community, in your church? Or have you abandoned any hope of God-ordained revival, believing instead that irreversible decline is inevitable?

Eschatology affects one's perseverance. Not long ago a premillennialist confronted a postmillennialist undergoing a series of trials. "I would think these injustices would cause you to become a premillennialist."

"On the contrary," said the other, "If I were a premillennialist I would have given up in despair long ago."

The eschatological presuppositions of pessimism or optimism affect virtually every decision a Christian makes. The more a decision is affected by time, the more one's eschatological persuasion will influence his decision. Eschatology has a very profound effect on one's life. As a man thinks, so is he (Prov. 23:7).

[Freak]

Today @ 02:54 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

Hey I'm just happy to see Freak post in eschatology. One correction, approximately 35% is prophecy so technically speaking (very loosely), if preterism is correct, aobu 1/3 of the Bible is directly affected. Of course if futurism is correct, the same thing is true. I think God certainly does want us to be interested ikn what 35% of the Bible has to say. The Bible says a whole lot more about preterism or futurism than it does about demonology.

35% Huh? How did you come up with that number?

Yes, we know DD, preterism is the essential issue in all of the scriptures. Though the universal body of Christ (like the dedicated believers in China, in India, in Russia, in the Africa, and elsewhere) knows nothing of these issues--preterism is still that essential. Yeah right!

These dedicated believers know nothing you speak ok. I have met them. They could care less. For that matter believers in America could care less. They are more concerned about walking with Jesus in love and faith, raising their kids, loving their spouses, sharing the simple message of the Gospel,....

[Darth Xena]

Dear Freak:

I think every point you just raised was addressed in that article I just posted, but our posts crossed in the ether.

[Darth Xena]

Off-topic a sec - did you ever find a debate opponent? I really want to see you do a Gym debate. Would you consider posting a challenge on another subject?

[Freak]

Mr. Jack's article is another article justifying the mad rush to over emphasis end times issues.

The fact is believers embrace the second coming of Jesus Christ. We all agree. But my concern is the minor issues that seem to be elevated as being so important. When in fact these minor issues (like preterism) are not important to the daily Christan life. We live our lives through a living relationship with Jesus Christ not because of preterism. The Holy Spirit will guide the believer not preterism. You can live your life according to preterism. I choose to live my life in Christ under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Again please do not misunderstand me. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ is an important doctrine that we all embrace but the minor details is what has divided the body of Christ and when the Body attempts to elevate these minor issues to the level of great importance is a concern of mine.

[Darth Xena]

Mr. Jack's article is another article justifying the mad rush to over emphasis end times issues.


Easy to say, but I would like to see you deal with his points. You raised issues, I posted an article addressing them. I could just as easily have said, "Freak's post is just another post justifying a nonchalant attitude towards eschatology." I didn't. I supported my position with arguments, though not original to me, but said better than I probably could have said them.

And.... notice, you are doing a bait and switch. I have not said that preterism per se is important, but that [i]eschatology[i] is important, no matter what position you take, be it futurism, historicism, or preterism.

[Hitch]

Today @ 03:26 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

Dear Freak:

I think every point you just raised was addressed in that article I just posted, but our posts crossed in the ether. Freaks problem is that his side hanst been able to muster anything better than Tommy Ice. Hence the declaration of irrelevency. and its a good tactic, if Ice were my best spokesman Id try changingthefocus as well.

It a little sad though. I 'd seen Freak's handle at TOL and here and until now never paid much attention and its bothersome to see such obvious inconsistency, especially when eschatology dossnt matter why push an old fossil like Walvoord? While castigating the other side for even discussion the issue? Well DFs are not known for the application of consistent standards.

I reckon DeeDee you and I and Freak have a very similar understanding of the importance of Biblical doctrines beyond the diety of Christ, including eschatological ones. He just mad at the guy who stole the Emporer's new clothes.

take care

Hitch

[Freak]

Today @ 03:54 PM
Dee Dee Warren:



Easy to say, but I would like to see you deal with his points. You raised issues, I posted an article addressing them. I could just as easily have said, "Freak's post is just another post justifying a nonchalant attitude towards eschatology." I didn't. I supported my position with arguments, though not original to me, but said better than I probably could have said them.

And.... notice, you are doing a bait and switch. I have not said that preterism per se is important, but that [i]eschatology[i] is important, no matter what position you take, be it futurism, historicism, or preterism.

Yes, the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is important. I made that clear. But the fact is the minor issues of eschatology is not as important as say essential Christian doctrine. I was merely making a personal observation. It seems there is a over emphasis on preterism when in reality this issue is a non-essential. Simply my observation.

In regards to Mr. Jack's article, the Scriptures tells us that to trust in the Lord not in end time views.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and the direction of the Holy Spirit to live my life not what a particular view tells me. That is another danger of elevating these minor issues to great such importance. We dismiss the personal work of the Holy Spirit while leaning on what a view tells us to live our lives.

Mr. Jack refers to premillennialists, postmillennialists, etc...exactly my concern. We are believers in Jesus Christ not premillennialists, postmillennialists, etc...we believe in the Second Coming of Jesus.

He goes on to say: The eschatological presuppositions of pessimism or optimism affect virtually every decision a Christian makes. The more a decision is affected by time, the more one's eschatological persuasion will influence his decision. Eschatology has a very profound effect on one's life. As a man thinks, so is he (Prov. 23:7).

That is exactly my concern. Jesus should be affecting every decision not a view like preterism, post trib, etc.

DD, I'm afraid believers have been so entangled with all these various end times views they lost track of what is truly important--your personal relationship with Jesus, with your spouse, with your kids, with one another, sharing the essential doctrines of the Christian faith--the Gospel. Again, my personal observation.

As I mentioned earlier, in my travels around the world, I have yet to deal with any pastor whose concern was the end times. The suffering church believes the second coming of Christ but could care less about preterim or the other views. They are more concerned about how to provide for their families, how to get something to eat for today, how to win their friends to Jesus, etc...

The universal body of Christ, DD, is wanting a clear proclamation of the Gospel not a clear proclamation of preterism.

[Hitch]

As I mentioned earlier, in my travels around the world, I have yet to deal with any pastor whose concern was the end times. THe suffering church believes the second coming of Christ but could care less about preterim or the other views. They are more concerned about how to provide for their families, how to get something to eat for today, how to win their friends to Jesus, etc...

The universal body of Christ, DD, is wanting a clear proclamation of the Gospel not a clear proclamation of preterism.


So naturally you come here to push Walvoord and LaHaye. Makes sense to me...

Hitch

[Freak]

Today @ 04:02 PM
Hitch:

Freaks problem is that his side hanst been able to muster anything better than Tommy Ice. Hence the declaration of irrelevency. and its a good tactic, if Ice were my best spokesman Id try changingthefocus as well.

It a little sad though. I 'd seen Freak's handle at TOL and here and until now never paid much attention and its bothersome to see such obvious inconsistency, especially when eschatology dossnt matter why push an old fossil like Walvoord? While castigating the other side for even discussion the issue? Well DFs are not known for the application of consistent standards.

I reckon DeeDee you and I and Freak have a very similar understanding of the importance of Biblical doctrines beyond the diety of Christ, including eschatological ones. He just mad at the guy who stole the Emporer's new clothes.

take care

Hitch

Hitch,

I am not angry. Actually I'm filled with the joy of Jesus. God has been doing some great things in the world.

Walvord? I merely mentioned him to make a point. I do not follow his teachings. Who is Tommy Ice? What is DF's?

Well, Hitch, the reality is Jesus Christ and the essential doctrines are what matters. Non-issues like preterism pales to understanding how one is saved.

[Freak]

Today @ 04:15 PM
Hitch:

As I mentioned earlier, in my travels around the world, I have yet to deal with any pastor whose concern was the end times. THe suffering church believes the second coming of Christ but could care less about preterim or the other views. They are more concerned about how to provide for their families, how to get something to eat for today, how to win their friends to Jesus, etc...

The universal body of Christ, DD, is wanting a clear proclamation of the Gospel not a clear proclamation of preterism.


So naturally you come here to push Walvoord and LaHaye. Makes sense to me...

Hitch

I have come to puch that Jesus saves and is coming back personally and physically. I don't even have one of their books (Walvoord or LaHaye's)

[Darth Xena]

And once one is saved, one is expected to move beyond just the elementary principles of the faith. If eschatology were not important it would not make up 35% of the Bible or so. As I said, the Bible speaks more about eschatology than it does about demonology. Importance of doctrine is not determined by a popularity poll amongst believers or pastors. God dedicated a lot of time to it, it is obviousy important to Him. It is not an either or situation as you are attempting to make it.l It is both. It answers the questoin, "Okay I am saved, now what?" You agree that the Second Coming is important, well then you have just raised an eschatological issue. Who says that the details behind that doctrine are not important? Are the details behind salvation important? Sure.

[Hitch]

Today @ 04:23 PM
Freak:



I have come to puch that Jesus saves and is coming back personally and physically. I don't even have one of their books (Walvoord or LaHaye's) Ohh i get it now THATS why you come here to tout them and their respective decades of study. So you could on the one hand proclaim their goodness while at the same time disavowing any knowledge of their teachings.


Your logic escapes me. And Im afraid it escape you as well.

Hitch

[Freak]

Today @ 04:27 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

And once one is saved, one is expected to move beyond just the elementary principles of the faith. If eschatology were not important it would not make up 35% of the Bible or so. As I said, the Bible speaks more about eschatology than it does about demonology. Importance of doctrine is not determined by a popularity poll amongst believers or pastors. God dedicated a lot of time to it, it is obviousy important to Him. It is not an either or situation as you are attempting to make it.l It is both. It answers the questoin, "Okay I am saved, now what?" You agree that the Second Coming is important, well then you have just raised an eschatological issue. Who says that the details behind that doctrine are not important? Are the details behind salvation important? Sure.

DD, I made it clear that I thought the Second Coming of Jesus Christ was important. But pretty much outside of that--eschatological views are varied and undecided. Much we do not know. That is why you have preterism, pre-wrath, etc...man's attempt to understand. We should focus on the clear messages found in Scripture---like the redemptive work of Jesus, how one is justified, etc. Dealing with minor & irrelveant issues like preterism is not as important.

DD, I have been a believer for nearly 20 years. The meat is the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. That should be the focus for that was the focus of the Scriptures. Man connecting with God in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. One hundred perfect of the Bible is focused on the God's redeeming nature and His plan to redeem people.

DD, the reason why people are not interested in end times (outside of knowing the basics like Jesus coming back, etc) is much of it speculative and unknown. But we do know some essentials that are clear. Let's focus on them. Why focus on the non-essential. The suffering Church in the thrid world is more concerned about how to proclaim the Lordship of Jesus Christ over their land then understanding preterism.

[Freak]

Today @ 04:35 PM
Hitch:

Ohh i get it now THATS why you come here to tout them and their respective decades of study. So you could on the one hand proclaim their goodness while at the same time disavowing any knowledge of their teachings.


Your logic escapes me. And Im afraid it escape you as well.

Hitch

Hitch--

I have been in ministry for nearly 20 years I know something of Lahaye, etc but it doesn't mean I read their books or follow their teachings. By the way, you were putting words in my mouth by declaring that I thought their teachings were "goodness"--I never claimed that.

You are making false assumptions which have ben rejected.

[Darth Xena]

Freak, you keep shifting the focus... the issue is not about preterism per se, but about eschatology, which is important. I outline many reasons why but you have not dealt with them.

[Freak]

Today @ 04:46 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

Freak, you keep shifting the focus... the issue is not about preterism per se, but about eschatology, which is important. I outline many reasons why but you have not dealt with them.

I have dealt with them. You just didn't like the answers.

[Darth Xena]

I will prove that you have not... but, this is a fairly new thread, and I have other persons to whom I have promised some responses way back, so I have to put this on a back burner temporariy.

[Freak]

Today @ 04:50 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

I will prove that you have not... but, this is a fairly new thread, and I have other persons to whom I have promised some responses way back, so I have to put this on a back burner temporariy.

Reminder: This title of the thread is about the lack of interest in this new theory titled preterism.

I have traveled the world and have yet to meet anyone who desires to learn more about preterism. Believers would rather focus on the essentials. Preterism is a faddish new theory that people like to boast about believing.

When Jesus and Him crucified should be what we boast in!

[Darth Xena]

Freak, I will come back to this thread but a quick correction - preterism has been around since the beginning of the Church. In fact the Father of Church History Eusebius was a preterist. Now, in your last comment, though some of your bias is coming through and you are speaking out of sheer ignorance. You do not have a similar problem with futurists apparently even though dispensationalism is a relatively new doctrinal school of thought (which does not make it wrong, I am just stating a historical issue).

As far as traveling the world, and not meeting anyone who desires to learn more about preterism, I could have saved you the plane tickets and forwarded you about ten PMs from persons here who desire that very thing. And I can get you some people who will tell you how often I am asked in chat rooms by beleivers to expound oln this subject because they desire to learn more. DeMar is not just selling books to his mother. Should I remind you that starting and continuing threads in our American luxury of Internet access and idle time probably does not mean diddly to many of the beleivers that you are speakinkg of. If you are so concerned about how believers are spending their time and what they are speaking of, I think there is a beam in your own eye that needs addressing (and I am using your standards polemically, obviously I believe that participation in theological forums is a worthwhile venture for many reasons or I would not do it, just as I believe eschatology discussion is worthwhile). Just my two cents.

[Darth Xena]

And you know Freak I mean no personal offense, I just think you are being wrong-headed here, as I believe you are wrong-headed on several secondary issues, such as the death penalty.

[Hitch]

Today @ 04:46 PM
Freak:



Hitch--

I have been in ministry for nearly 20 years I know something of Lahaye, etc but it doesn't mean I read their books or follow their teachings. By the way, you were putting words in my mouth by declaring that I thought their teachings were "goodness"--I never claimed that.

You are making false assumptions which have ben rejected.
Touting ' as I believe you said 40 or 50 years of study... that was definately an endorssment Freak. But Im suprised at how easy it is to get you to back pedal. I reckon you just hadnt expected anyone to know better.

You inconsistancy is glaring.

H

[Freak]

Preterism is a theory like all these others in our day. No one can agree. Besides, these issues are secondary issues. There are far greater issues to be concerned about. Like I said--the Body of Christ universal could care less about preterism. They care about and defend the Second Coming of Christ but could care less about another end time view. They desire to stand on some solid essential Christian doctrine--like the nature of God, the redemptive work of Christ, how one is saved, etc. Preterism is a non-essential and a issue that the world yawns at.

Besides, people are hungering for a saving relationship for Jesus not another end time view. No wonder the world doesn't care. In the midst of horrible poverty, war, disease, and conflicts of all sorts the people desire more the clear elements/understandable things of Christ .

DD, do you honestly think in Mali, believers are going to understand your view of world history and how preterism plays out. Of course not. They wouldn't understand and wouldn't care. Many of them would have trouble understanding the concept of a personal God let alone a end time theory. They would rather hear about Jesus who could save them from their sins and grant them eternal life.

I'm sure glad I didn't let you persuade me to not travel. Many thousands have been born-again in our meetings. The command is clear---go into all the world and preach the Gospel after all.

[Freak]

Today @ 05:34 PM
Hitch:


Touting ' as I believe you said 40 or 50 years of study... that was definately an endorssment Freak. But Im suprised at how easy it is to get you to back pedal. I reckon you just hadnt expected anyone to know better.

You inconsistancy is glaring.

H

Endorsement? What are you talking about?

Ok. Here is the endorsement---I know that these men are believers in Christ and have studied end times issues for over 40 years. How in the world is that an endorsement? I stated some facts nothing more. You are reading much more into this then required.

[Darth Xena]

Jay, you know I was not persuading you not to travel, I was pointing out the inaccuracies in your statement. You hit post reply before you really thought about what you said. We all do that at times.

[Hitch]

You're laughable Freak .

[Freak]

Today @ 05:54 PM
Hitch:

You're laughable Freak .

Thanks for being Christ like.

[Freak]

Today @ 05:52 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

Jay, you know I was not persuading you not to travel, I was pointing out the inaccuracies in your statement. You hit post reply before you really thought about what you said. We all do that at times.

DD, I was merely pointing out some inaccuracies--like your continued use of this 35% of Scripture is end time based. Where did you get that figure?

[Darth Xena]

I gave you my source, it is listed in that article I posted. Are you disputing Payne's figure? And if not, would you then agree that it is wrong to say that 35% of the Bible is unimportant? Would you concede that is more than demonology is spoken about?

[Freak]

Today @ 06:06 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

I gave you my source, it is listed in that article I posted. Are you disputing Payne's figure? And if not, would you then agree that it is wrong to say that 35% of the Bible is unimportant? Would you concede that is more than demonology is spoken about?


Where did Payne ge tthat figure?

Besides, 100% of the Scriptures speak of God's loving humanity and means to bring Him back into a relationship with Him! This should be the focus.

[Freak]

Today @ 06:06 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

I gave you my source, it is listed in that article I posted. Are you disputing Payne's figure? And if not, would you then agree that it is wrong to say that 35% of the Bible is unimportant? Would you concede that is more than demonology is spoken about?

Futhermore why is that the universal body of Christ understand the essentials of the Christian Faith but are unaware of preterism. Is it because the Bible is not clear on it...

[Darth Xena]

Payne got that figure from analyzing the Biblical text. Are you disputing that figure? And if so upon what basis?

[Hitch]

Why is it you've wasted all this enery attacking something that doesnt matter Freak?

Why arent you in Mali preaching the essentials?


you're crackin me up

[Freak]

Today @ 06:14 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

Payne got that figure from analyzing the Biblical text. Are you disputing that figure? And if so upon what basis?

The burden of proof lies with you, DD, to prove your assertion. I didn't come up with that figure, you did. Now I'd like to see some evidence of such claim.

[Freak]

Today @ 06:18 PM
Hitch:

Why is it you've wasted all this enery attacking something that doesnt matter Freak?

Why arent you in Mali preaching the essentials?

you're crackin me up

I lived in Africa until I was stricken with a disease. I'm glad you have come to terms with the truth.

[Reba]

freak

"I have come to puch that Jesus saves and is coming back personally and physically. I don't even have one of their books (Walvoord or LaHaye's)"

First tell me when HE is returning personally and physically and how you know it will be at that time. Tell me also how HE saves?

[Darth Xena]

Freak, I do not have the time or inclination to go through the entire Bible and prove that 35% is about prophesy. A well-respected scholar has done that, and I am citing him as an authority. The burden of proof is now upon you. But, we can do another exercise though anyways.. taking as true for the sake of argument only that 35% of the Bible is about eschatology, it is foolhardy to dismiss it as unimportant. The thrust of your website is on demonology issues which is hardly spoke of at all in Scripture, much less so than eschatology (which BTW is part and parcelo of the very title of Christ Himself as Creator and Consummator - pretty important), yet you devote a great deal of time to the subject. I can tell you that in my daily encounters with Christians (since you have argued implicitly that doctrinal important is a matter of popular vote) very few care about demonology whatsover. I can tell you that much more care about the future, especially in light of impending war and popular errenous teaching that the end is near.

[Freak]

Yesterday @ 10:05 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

Freak, I do not have the time or inclination to go through the entire Bible and prove that 35% is about prophesy. A well-respected scholar has done that, and I am citing him as an authority. The burden of proof is now upon you. But, we can do another exercise though anyways.. taking as true for the sake of argument only that 35% of the Bible is about eschatology, it is foolhardy to dismiss it as unimportant. The thrust of your website is on demonology issues which is hardly spoke of at all in Scripture, much less so than eschatology (which BTW is part and parcelo of the very title of Christ Himself as Creator and Consummator - pretty important), yet you devote a great deal of time to the subject. I can tell you that in my daily encounters with Christians (since you have argued implicitly that doctrinal important is a matter of popular vote) very few care about demonology whatsover. I can tell you that much more care about the future, especially in light of impending war and popular errenous teaching that the end is near.

DD, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point.

You made the assertion (and quoted from one individual who by the way doesn't tell us how he got to that number) that over 35% of the Bible refers to end time elements. I didn't claim to know what percentage of the Scriptures pertain to end times. How easy for you to brush it off. Oh well. Don't worry about it.

In regards to my website. The focus is the saving & delivering work of Jesus Christ not demonology. Though I deal with it. But I'm not arguing about demonology. I'm speaking about preterism and it's irrelevance in our world. Most of the Christian world knows nothing about this faddish theory. Ever traveled to the most populous country in all of the world-China? If you get a chance please do so. One will find out that the suffering church is more concerned about the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ then preterism. They know nothing about preterism but the church is thriving. Hmmmm.......

[Rubia Warren]

*stirs pot*
It would seem that, due to the spiritual battles we face, knowing who our enemy is and how he operates seems more practical for the average believer than the specifics of preterism would be. I wonder how much of the bible is devoted to that (as well as "demonology"). Does anybody know?

*rubia runs to hide behind freak*

[Freak]

Today @ 01:55 AM
La Rubia:

*stirs pot*
It would seem that, due to the spiritual battles we face, knowing who our enemy is and how he operates seems more practical for the average believer than the specifics of preterism would be. I wonder how much of the bible is devoted to that (as well as "demonology"). Does anybody know?

*rubia runs to hide behind freak*

Exactly.

I like DD. I consider her my friend. But I think she is way, way overboard on this preterism. From what I understand she's a new believer so perhaps this fascination with preterism is a stage.

What's so funny is that I never heard of the term preterism until I met DD a year or two ago and I have been a believer and serving the Lord Jesus for nearly 20 years.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 08:36 PM
Freak:



DD, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point.

You made the assertion (and quoted from one individual who by the way doesn't tell us how he got to that number) that over 35% of the Bible refers to end time elements. I didn't claim to know what percentage of the Scriptures pertain to end times. How easy for you to brush it off. Oh well. Don't worry about it.

Hmm, well you are the one disputing a published and well respected author. I know from a personal study of the subject that figure certainly seems accurate to me.

In regards to my website. The focus is the saving & delivering work of Jesus Christ not demonology. Though I deal with it. But I'm not arguing about demonology. I'm speaking about preterism and it's irrelevance in our world.

Well Freak, that may not be what you are talking about, but conversations usually involve more than one person and give and take, and that is what I was talking about. I find eschatology extraordinarily relevant as it shapes entire worldviews. I know of many others who think likewise. It does not bother me that we disagree.

Most of the Christian world knows nothing about this faddish theory.

Freak, here is where I have something harsher to say to you. You have been quite patronizing and condenscending to your Christian brothers and sisters this whole thread, so I think you need a bit of a heart check. Have I been guilty of the same before? Sure, but as you like to say, I am not talking about me I am dealing with the way you are coming across. This doctrine has been around a long time, a very long time, so your characteriziation as faddish is inappropriate derogatory and unnecessary. If you do not care about eschatology no one is twisting your arm to come to the eschatology section of the forum.

Ever traveled to the most populous country in all of the world-China? If you get a chance please do so. One will find out that the suffering church is more concerned about the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ then preterism.

And are you insinuating that the preterist brethren here care more about preterism than the Gospel? This is not an either/or situation. And when God has graced this church in Ameria (for how long we do not know) with the luxury of getting to study the whole counsel of God in relative security, a comparison to a persecuted church that has a different focus is misguided. But I would remind you that the Scriptures teach otherwise. The Lord Jesus when speaking to the persecuted churches in the seven letters to the seven churchs in Revelation gives them an eschatology lesson. The whole book of Revelation, the largest single eschatological writing in the NT is written to the persecuted.

[Darth Xena]

Now let's see exactly what Freak did not answer.

Why is the study of eschatology important? First, the Bible is given to us that we might know God and His will. Anything God has chosen to reveal to us is certainly worth studying. It seems odd, therefore, that Christians would opt to downplay certain parts of God's revelation as irrelevant.

Yes that does seem odd. What was Freak's answer to this? Popular opinion doesn't care about certain areas? Well if we are going to go by popular opinion, a great deal of the world does not care about Jesus.

Second, while eschatology may not be among the essential doctrines of the faith, neither is it unimportant. Barton Payne estimated that 38% of the Bible deals with prophecy, which is not an insignificant amount.

Freak simply dismissed the figure which was an implicit admission if the figure is right, that is an awful lot of space for something insignificant.

Third, eschatology deals with God's plan in human history. How can anyone say that God's plan for the human race has no effect on one's life?

Perhaps Freak will tell us again how he answered that.

It is hard to imagine an area of life that is not touched by eschatology. A pessimist will plan for the short term, an optimist for the long term. Do you disciple your children in such a way that they will know how to disciple their children? Or do you believe as many do that we are in the "terminal generation"? Do you educate your children the same way? Do you save your money with your children's children in mind (Prov. 13:22)? If you believe the end is near, why should you save? (How many churches and individuals, convinced of an imminent rapture, have accumulated indebtedness believing they will never have to pay back their debt in full?) Do you work toward progressive sanctification in your life, in your family, in your work, in your neighborhood, in your community, in your church? Or have you abandoned any hope of God-ordained revival, believing instead that irreversible decline is inevitable?

I don't remember Freak answering that either.

The eschatological presuppositions of pessimism or optimism affect virtually every decision a Christian makes. The more a decision is affected by time, the more one's eschatological persuasion will influence his decision. Eschatology has a very profound effect on one's life. As a man thinks, so is he (Prov. 23:7).

Or this. What I have seen though is Freak sitting in judgment upon fellow beleivers that have an intense interest in something that God has told us. What I have seen is Freak presuming that we as diffrerent members of the same body may not have a different function and calling. I am confident in my calling and my interest and my area of study.

[Freak]

DD, my dear friend,

Incredibly you said: And are you insinuating that the preterist brethren here care more about preterism than the Gospel?

"Preterist brethen"---what about believers in Christ or Christians or followers of Jesus--"Preterist brethen"--what the heck???

Take a quick glance at the Holy Scriptures DD and you'll see that the followers of Jesus didn't refer to themselves as "preterist brethern"--why start now? Why not the title---Christian or follower of Jesus?

You also say: The Lord Jesus when speaking to the persecuted churches in the seven letters to the seven churchs in Revelation gives them an eschatology lesson. The whole book of Revelation, the largest single eschatological writing in the NT is written to the persecuted.

Huh? You got to be kidding me. The persecuted church is concerned about the redemptive mission of Jesus Christ not preterism, my friend. I have lived in Nigeria and other places where the persecuted church exists and I can personally tell you that preterism is not a concern but getting something to eat, getting a roof over their head, loving their families, winning people to Jesus is what's important.

The issue I'm concerned about this is the misguided emphasis on preterism. I have never heard of this theory until recently and I have been mightly used of God despite knowing it's specific doctrines. Preterism is irrelevant to me and I'm sharing my observations about this at this site.

Look, if you feel offended, I'm sorry but I'm not sorry about what I believe to be true.

DD, you'll discover as you further your walk with Christ that eschatological issues are many and varied. Preterism is one of many. The universal church embraces the essential eschatological elements like the second coming of Jesus, our hope of eternal life, etc. but when it comes to these theories the universal body simply dismisses. Why? Because as I said it is irrelevant.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 08:55 PM
La Rubia:

*stirs pot*
It would seem that, due to the spiritual battles we face, knowing who our enemy is and how he operates seems more practical for the average believer than the specifics of preterism would be. I wonder how much of the bible is devoted to that (as well as "demonology"). Does anybody know?

*rubia runs to hide behind freak*


Well in that sense our interests would overlap for eschatology teaches about God's ultimate victory over our enemy and over sin and over evil. Creation is protological... but consumation and victory is eschatological.

Christ claimed to the First (the protological source) and the Last (the eschatological consummator).... eschatology has the same importance as the doctrine of creation. God is the beginner and the finisher. The story is incomplete without eschtology, it tells who wins and how.

I notice that Freak is revealing his hand, it is not eshcatology he has a problem with, it is preterism, so he is being inconsistent. Why does he not have the same problem with futurism? Because he agrees with it? Well then we see the real issue here.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 09:25 PM
Freak:

DD, my dear friend,

Incredibly you said: And are you insinuating that the preterist brethren here care more about preterism than the Gospel?

"Preterist brethen"---what about believers in Christ or Christians or followers of Jesus--"Preterist brethen"--what the heck???


I used that because you have chosen to single out a group of people based upon a particular eschatological belief. If you do not care for the division then you need to look home for the source.

Take a quick glance at the Holy Scriptures DD and you'll see that the followers of Jesus didn't refer to themselves as "preterist brethern"--why start now? Why not the title---Christian or follower of Jesus?

You made the division not I. Your dramatics are not impressive.

You also say: The Lord Jesus when speaking to the persecuted churches in the seven letters to the seven churchs in Revelation gives them an eschatology lesson. The whole book of Revelation, the largest single eschatological writing in the NT is written to the persecuted.

Huh? You got to be kidding me. The persecuted church is concerned about the redemptive mission of Jesus Christ not preterism, my friend. I have lived in Nigeria and other places where the persecuted church exists and I can personally tell you that preterism is not a concern but getting something to eat, getting a roof over their head, loving their families, winning people to Jesus is what's important.

And I noticed that you did not answer or defeat my point about Revelation. I pointed to the objective word of God and you pointed to subjective experiences. And I agree that conversion is the most important goal, and that persons who are stuggling to eke out an existence cannot worry about too much else. But you and I are blessed to have the time and resources to further study. I am grateful for that. To make the comparision is illegitimate.

The issue I'm concerned about this is the misguided emphasis on preterism. I have never heard of this theory until recently and I have been mightly used of God despite knowing it's specific doctrines. Preterism is irrelevant to me and I'm sharing my observations about this at this site.

And I guess because it is irrelevant to you, that is detereminative upon everyone else? I submit you have an inflated view of the importance of your experience as binding dogma. I think your concern is miguided, patronizing, and judgmental.

Look, if you feel offended, I'm sorry but I'm not sorry about what I believe to be true.

I never asked you to be. And I am not offended.

DD, you'll discover as you further your walk with Christ that eschatological issues are many and varied. Preterism is one of many.

And you think this is something I do not know already? I have devoted years to the study of this issue, you have not.

The universal church embraces the essential eschatological elements like the second coming of Jesus, our hope of eternal life, etc. but when it comes to these theories the universal body simply dismisses. Why? Because as I said it is irrelevant.

I don't find anything that God has said to irrelevant. It amazes me that you do. That is very irreverant of you. The fact that any eschatological element is an essential of the faith (a salvational issue I would say in some respects) underscores the mighty importance of the doctrinal school. Exorcism is not given that attention in the universal church or in the Bible, yet you devote a large amount of time and interest to the subject. I am not saying you are wrong to do so (despite my doctrinal disagreement iwth you there), for I think that demonology is important.

[Freak]

DD, I have answered your questions. But for your sake I'll try again.

First that article mentions: It seems odd, therefore, that Christians would opt to downplay certain parts of God's revelation as irrelevant.

We are saying that what is important is the essentials. The essentials are more important then preterism. End times theories come and go. The essentials is the foundation by which we stand. Jesus Christ is our rock not preterism or futurism or any other theory.

Secondly DD tells us: Barton Payne estimated that 38% of the Bible deals with prophecy, which is not an insignificant amount.

38%. I have heard 50%. I have even heard 75%. Everybody has a number by I have yet seen any agreeement and any evidence. But who cares if it's 35%. For the sake of arguement let's agree with DD about the 38%. I'll tell you what let's make it 50%. But more important then that is that 100% of Scripture deal with God's loving concern for man and His ways of conecting with humans, redeeming them, forgiving them, loving them....That is why preterism is irrelevant! People are concerned about the major focus which is God's love for humanity.

WE continue: How can anyone say that God's plan for the human race has no effect on one's life?

Nobody is denying that. All I'm saying is preterism is not God's plan. Jesus Christ not a theory is the plan.

We go on: It is hard to imagine an area of life that is not touched by eschatology.

Christians are directed by the life of Jesus Christ not by eschatological theories. Like I said the reality is the universal church is for the most part living in line with the Holy Spirit not preterism or eschatological theories.

Concluding: Eschatology has a very profound effect on one's life.

I'd would agree in minor part. Jesus and His present work in us has a more profound effect on one's life as seen in the thriving church in China who operate without knowledge of preterism.

[yxboom]

The world doesn't care about preterism.............:rofl:

[Darth Xena]

Freak you are once again showing your hand. Why are you not as concerned with futurism? Or dispensationalism?

[Freak]

Today @ 02:27 AM
Dee Dee Warren:




Well in that sense our interests would overlap for eschatology teaches about God's ultimate victory over our enemy and over sin and over evil. Creation is protological... but consumation and victory is eschatological.

Christ claimed to the First (the protological source) and the Last (the eschatological consummator).... eschatology has the same importance as the doctrine of creation. God is the beginner and the finisher. The story is incomplete without eschtology, it tells who wins and how.

I notice that Freak is revealing his hand, it is not eshcatology he has a problem with, it is preterism, so he is being inconsistent. Why does he not have the same problem with futurism? Because he agrees with it? Well then we see the real issue here.

DD, enough of the dramatics, ok?

I don't embrace futurism, preterism or DDeism, I embrace the Lord Jesus Christ and the clear teaching that He is coming back. That is my end time view.

Reminder: We are dealing with how the world at large cares less about preterism which I have proven.

[Freak]

DD finally concedes as she says:

And I agree that conversion is the most important goal, and that persons who are stuggling to eke out an existence cannot worry about too much else.

That is exactly my point my dear friend. Preterism is really not a concern for the universal body of believers. That is simply what I'm saying. Thank you for acknowledging that. I'm not discounting that end times has a place.

[Freak]

BTW, you said: I have devoted years to the study of this issue, you have not.

Oh really? How long have you been studying God's Word?

[Darth Xena]

We are saying that what is important is the essentials. The essentials are more important then preterism.

And who exactly here is arguing with that. Straw man.

38%. I have heard 50%. I have even heard 75%. Everybody has a number by I have yet seen any agreement and any evidence. But who cares if it's 35%. For the sake of argument let's agree with DD about the 38%. I'll tell you what let's make it 50%. But more important then that is that 100% of Scripture deal with God's loving concern for man and His ways of connecting with humans, redeeming them, forgiving them, loving them....That is why preterism is irrelevant! People are concerned about the major focus which is God's love for humanity.

So you are saying that 38% of the Bible is irrelevant… but I want you to painfully see your logic here. You are saying that 100% of the Bible is dealing with God’s redemptive plan. I agree with you. But follow closely here… 100% is a whole comprised of “parts” that make up the whole picture. You cannot have the “whole” without the “parts.” If 38% is indeed eschatology that is 38% out of the 100%. You have just proven that eschatology is about God’s redemptive love for humanity which is important. You have proven my point better than I could have done it myself.

WE continue: How can anyone say that God's plan for the human race has no effect on one's life?

Nobody is denying that. All I'm saying is preterism is not God's plan. Jesus Christ not a theory is the plan.

You giving us soundbites and platitudes. Eschatology deals with the consummation of God’s plan, and you just agreed that God’s plan for the human race is important. Thank you for continuing to prove my point.

We go on: It is hard to imagine an area of life that is not touched by eschatology.

Christians are directed by the life of Jesus Christ not by eschatological theories. Like I said the reality is the universal church is for the most part living in line with the Holy Spirit not preterism or eschatological theories.

Says who? You? I have told you that my life has been drastically changed by my eschatological view as have others and explained why. After birth must come growth in the whole counsel of God. Paul did say something about valuing the whole counsel now didn’t he?


Concluding: Eschatology has a very profound effect on one's life.

I'd would agree in minor part. Jesus and His present work in us has a more profound effect on one's life as seen in the thriving church in China who operate without knowledge of preterism.

It is not an either/or situation, a major point that you have failed to grasp here. It is AND. The most profound experience one can have is conversion. No one has denied that. But after birth comes growth.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 09:51 PM
Freak:

BTW, you said: I have devoted years to the study of this issue, you have not.

Oh really? How long have you been studying God's Word?

Freak you can take this for what it is worth... and maybe you will appreciate knowing how you have come across on this thread, and maybe not. But, to me, you have come across as boastful and arrogant. YOU have done this. And YOU have done that. Fine, I think it is fantastic that you have been a Christian for twenty years and traveled the world but the way you have communicated it here leaves soemthing to be desired IMHO.

Now to answer your question.. don't broaden the boundaries more than I did. I said this specific issue, and I have been studying it in depth for almost four years I wuold say, but I would also honestly say it was an interest of mine right from the beginning of being converted. I have no doubt that as a whole you have studied the Bible for more years, but I am confident that I have years on this one subject. You admitted yourself that only recently did you become aware of a view that has been around for two millennia.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 09:49 PM
Freak:

DD finally concedes as she says:

And I agree that conversion is the most important goal, and that persons who are stuggling to eke out an existence cannot worry about too much else.

That is exactly my point my dear friend. Preterism is really not a concern for the universal body of believers. That is simply what I'm saying. Thank you for acknowledging that. I'm not discounting that end times has a place.

Hmm, to concede something means that we at one point disagreed. I never disagreed with that, but the suffering church is not the experience of the entire church, and to make the experiences of one area of the church the determinative factor for the rest is invalid. Take for instance a concordance. Of what concern do you think a concordance is for people who are barely eking out an existance. Does that mean that we should not publish them here? I could multiply examples.

[Freak]

Amazingly you said:

Exorcism is not given that attention in the universal church or in the Bible, yet you devote a large amount of time and interest to the subject

Huh? You really haven't traveled much have you?

The universal body in more accepting of the deliverance ministry because it is what Jesus came to do.

He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

What was the reason DD that the Son of God appeared?

Jesus at the very beginning said:

The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed

Release who?

Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. Simon and his companions went to look for him, and when they found him, they exclaimed: "Everyone is looking for you!"
Jesus replied, "Let us go somewhere else--to the nearby villages--so I can preach there also. That is why I have come." So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons.

What did He do?

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

He dealt with demons throughout His ministry. Jesus!

I'll leave you, DD, with this:

...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:00 AM
Dee Dee Warren:



Hmm, to concede something means that we at one point disagreed. I never disagreed with that, but the suffering church is not the experience of the entire church, and to make the experiences of one area of the church the determinative factor for the rest is invalid. Take for instance a concordance. Of what concern do you think a concordance is for people who are barely eking out an existance. Does that mean that we should not publish them here? I could multiply examples.

Well much of the church is suffering with Christ as the world hates those who belong to Him.

Reminder: We are dealing with preterism. Most Amercian believers I would dare say know nothing about preterism because they don't care about theories. They care about the essential doctrines of the end times like Jesus is coming back physically and visibly but outside of that the church could care less about preterism. It's not a very important concern.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:00 PM
Freak:

Amazingly you said:

Exorcism is not given that attention in the universal church or in the Bible, yet you devote a large amount of time and interest to the subject

Huh? You really haven't traveled much have you?

The universal body in more accepting of the deliverance ministry because it is what Jesus came to do.

You are equating certan segments of the church with the whole. A great deal of the church could is not devoting time and interest to that subject.


He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

Yes, and that is what eschatology is all about... with your focus being a subset ironcially enough. You keep proving my points for me.

What was the reason DD that the Son of God appeared?

Jesus at the very beginning said:

The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed

Release who?

And the ultimate release comes at the eschatogical consummation. Christ was there declaring himself to be the eschatological jubillee... that is a very eschatological passage.

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

And 1 Corinthians 15:24 et al tells us eschatological of the final pratical defeat of satan. An eschatological event.

He dealt with demons throughout His ministry. Jesus!

And eschatology tells how He finally deals with them. Your ministry ironically enough is a subset of eschatology.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:05 PM
Freak:



Well much of the church is suffering with Christ as the world hates those who belong to Him.

Reminder: We are dealing with preterism. Most Amercian believers I would dare say know nothing about preterism because they don't care about theories. They care about the essential doctrines of the end times like Jesus is coming back physically and visibly but outside of that the church could care less about preterism. It's not a very important!

Importance is not determined by popular vote. You have confused importance with that which is essential. It is not essential, but it is important.

[Darth Xena]

And I wonder why you spend time trying to defeat OV? Is that important? Does salvation depend upon that? How many Chinese beleivers care about OV or closed view or impassibility etc?

[Freak]

You said: You are equating certan segments of the church with the whole. A great deal of the church could is not devoting time and interest to that subject.

Well Jesus tells all believers to cast out demons. So, it's not limited to a portion of the church.

Besides, Jesus constantly dealt with demons in His ministry. It was a present ministry not a future ministry He performed the miracles for the people in the here and now.

Deliverance from demons actually helps people. Preterism is too complex for most believers. But universal church understands Jesus being able to deliver them from evil powers that are tormenting them.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:08 AM
Dee Dee Warren:

And I wonder why you spend time trying to defeat OV? Is that important? Does salvation depend upon that? How many Chinese beleivers care about OV or closed view or impassibility etc?

Because the OV deals with the nature of God, which is a essential doctrine, correct?

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:09 PM
Freak:

You said: You are equating certan segments of the church with the whole. A great deal of the church could is not devoting time and interest to that subject.

Well Jesus tells all believers to cast out demons. So, it's not limited to a portion of the church.

Besides, Jesus constantly dealt with demons in His ministry. It was a present ministry not a future ministry He performed the miracles for the people in the here and now.

Deliverance from demons actually helps people. Preterism is too complex for most believers. But universal church understands Jesus being able to deliver them from evil powers that are tormenting them.

And eschatology explains why and how and the ultimate victory. It is vitally important but not essential. You are confusing the two and have done so this entire thread as you sit in judgment upon your brehtren and the calling that God has put upon them.

[Freak]

Stop the deflecting and the attempts to move this thread to another topic.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:12 PM
Freak:



Because the OV deals with the nature of God, which is a essential doctrine, correct?

Show me where in any creed that EDF is an essential of the faith. But I can show where eschatology is showing its importance. Are you claiming that OV is a salvational issue? How many Chinese believers care about OV?

And I would argue that OV is not so much about the nature of God but about the nature of time. Is it importnat? Yes!! Do I disgree with it!! Strongly. Do believers eking out an existence in the Sudan give a rip about it. No.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:13 PM
Freak:

Stop the deflecting and the attempts to move this thread to another topic.


I am calling you out on your inconsistency and exposing your motives. You personally have a problem with preterism and are cloaking your objection. I am simply exposing it. Your inconsistency is glaring. I am wondering when you will be this zealous with futurists. I can give you a link to a forum where Jerry Shugart is posting, perhaps you want to lecture him about how unimportant futurism is?

[Freak]

Today @ 03:15 AM
Dee Dee Warren:



Show me where in any creed that EDF is an essential of the faith. But I can show where eschatology is showing its importance. Are you claiming that OV is a salvational issue? How many Chinese believers care about OV?

And I would argue that OV is not so much about the nature of God but about the nature of time. Is it importnat? Yes!! Do I disgree with it!! Strongly. Do believers eking out an existence in the Sudan give a rip about it. No.

OV deals with God's knowledge of all things-past, present, and future. It deal with the issue like is God-all-powerful as He claims?

I think OV is another faddish theory that the body of Christ has rejected.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:16 AM
Dee Dee Warren:




I am calling you out on your inconsistency and exposing your motives. You personally have a problem with preterism and are cloaking your objection. I am simply exposing it. Your inconsistency is glaring.


I made myself clear DD. I do not embrace futurism, preterism, dispeism, DDeism, Jayism, Lahayeism, etc....

Re-read my first post, DD. I was making a personal observation about preterism and you got bent out of shape about it.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:18 PM
Freak:



OV deals with God's knowledge of all things-past, present, and future. It deal with the issue like is God-all-powerful as He claims?

I think OV is another faddish theory that the body of Christ has rejected.


You obviously do not understand OV much like you do not understand preterism. OV does not limit the power of God. You and I as closed viewers do not beleive that God can do anything. God cannot do that which is not possible to be done. OV posits that the future does not exist to be known. It is not limiting the power of God whatsover, and I say this being staunchy nonOV.

[yxboom]

Today @ 07:15 PM
Dee Dee Warren:



Show me where in any creed that EDF is an essential of the faith. But I can show where eschatology is showing its importance. Are you claiming that OV is a salvational issue? How many Chinese believers care about OV?
I am Chinese and a believer, who raises horses for the Apocalypse......:hrm:

[Darth Xena]

And does the Church in China care about OV? Nope and yet you still think it is important.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:21 AM
Dee Dee Warren:




You obviously do not understand OV much like you do not understand preterism. OV does not limit the power of God. You and I as closed viewers do not beleive that God can do anything. God cannot do that which is not possible to be done. OV posits that the future does not exist to be known. It is not limiting the power of God whatsover, and I say this being staunchy nonOV.

Well, as you know, OV has various views all which are silly. ETS recent meeting has proven that.

By the way, we are dealing with preterism not OV.

[yxboom]

Today @ 07:21 PM
Dee Dee Warren:




You obviously do not understand OV much like you do not understand preterism. OV does not limit the power of God. You and I as closed viewers do not beleive that God can do anything. God cannot do that which is not possible to be done. OV posits that the future does not exist to be known. It is not limiting the power of God whatsover, and I say this being staunchy nonOV. Freak is making no sense and I agree, DDW that you are a staunchy.

[Darth Xena]

Sorry Boom, okay there is one Chinese believer (well half-Chinese) believer that cares about OV. But I meant the persecutred church in China... do they care about OV? I doubt they even know about it. Is it important? Of course.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:21 AM
Dee Dee Warren:

And does the Church in China care about OV? Nope and yet you still think it is important.

As I have said...OV is a American faddish theory that has been denounced. I do think how one views the nature of God is important however.

[Darth Xena]

Well then you have just shot in the foot your argument that since the sufferering church does not care about it or even know about it then it is not important.

[yxboom]

Today @ 07:21 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

And does the Church in China care about OV? Nope and yet you still think it is important. All I have to say is...
1 Corinthians 12:20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."God's Word is awesome enough for there to be enough depth for every flavor. Freak is making no sense.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:24 AM
Dee Dee Warren:

Well then you have just shot in the foot your argument that since the sufferering church does not care about it or even know about it then it is not important.

Yes, they care about understanding the nature of God. DD, get some rest your making no sense now.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:22 PM
Freak:



Well, as you know, OV has various views all which are silly. ETS recent meeting has proven that.

By the way, we are dealing with preterism not OV.

Actually I am dealing with your inconsistency.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:25 PM
Freak:



Yes, they care about understanding the nature of God. DD, get some rest your making no sense now.

Really? How many in the suffering church debate or talk about the finer points of OV versus closed view? I think that the suffering church cares very much about the victory of God and the fact that He ultimately wins and that they are promised new bodies"and heaven and victory. Hmm, that sounds like eschatology to me.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:25 AM
Dee Dee Warren:



Actually I am dealing with your inconsistency.

What are you talking about.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:27 AM
Dee Dee Warren:



Really? How many in the suffering church debate or talk about the finer points of OV versus closed view? I think that the suffering church cares very much about the victory of God and the fact that He ultimately wins and that they are promised new bodies and heaven and victory. Hmm, that sounds like eschatology to me.

Yes, what one believes about God's nature is more important then preterism.

[Darth Xena]

The broad contours of the nature of God are important to all believers, but you are not going to convince me that they even care about whether God really changed his mind or not with Ninevah.

[Freak]

Good night my friend. I'm having to move on...I have to marry someone trmw. I need to prepare alittle for that.

Just remember the nature of God is more important then preterism. Preterism is not a concern of the Body of Christ universal. Keep the main thing the main thing---Jesus Savior Healer and Deliverer!

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:29 PM
Freak:



Yes, what one believes about God's nature is more important then preterism.

And no one denied that there are levels of importance to doctrine, but that does not make others irrelevant. And again, it is a partcular eschatology you have a problem with, not eschatology in general so your motivations here are suspect. You do not have the same zeal against futurism.

And God's ultimate redemptive victory is highly important to all believers and that is what eschatology is all about. I have defeated your points over and over and over.

[Freak]

Today @ 03:32 AM
Dee Dee Warren:



And no one denied that there are levels of importance to doctrine, but that does not make others irrelevant. And again, it is a partcular eschatology you have a problem with, not eschatology in general so your motivations here are suspect. You do not have the same zeal against futurism.

And God's ultimate redemptive victory is highly important to all believers and that is what eschatology is all about. I have defeated your points over and over and over.

Whatever. Good night my sister!

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:31 PM
Freak:

Good night my friend. I'm having to move on...I have to marry someone trmw. I need to prepare alittle for that.

I do hope you mean as a minister :rofl: LOL! Have fun and be blessed.

Just remember the nature of God is more important then preterism. Preterism is not a concern of the Body of Christ universal. Keep the main thing the main thing---Jesus Savior Healer and Deliverer!

And consummator! which is what eschatology is all about. He ultimately delivers, He wins, satan loses. Sounds like eschatology to me. Would you like that link to go and rebuke Shugart for his futurist zeal?

[Darth Xena]

Good night my brother!

[Freak]

Today @ 03:34 AM
Dee Dee Warren:



I do hope you mean as a minister :rofl: LOL! Have fun and be blessed.



And consummator! which is what eschatology is all about. He ultimately delivers, He wins, satan loses. Sounds like eschatology to me. Would you like that link to go and rebuke Shugart for his futurist zeal?

DD, nobody my friend, is denying Jesus is Victor. But the focus needs to be on Jesus not another theory like preterism which the world cares little for.

Yes, as a minister.



:yipee:

[Darth Xena]

:yipee:

[studyhound]

[Yesterday @ 09:31 PM
Freak:

But if you come to bring the Gospel--thousands will come to hear! They want to hear the basic message that Jesus saves! Many of them are uneducated they wouldn't be able to follow all these difficult concepts that preterism teaches. But they understand Jesus saves and forgives sins.

Dear freak,

The issues you’re addressing are two totally different parts of the Christian life. I can’t think of anyone who would not agree that we do need to bring the gospel to those who are lost. This is a fundamental teaching for the whole body (preterist, df, calvinist pentacostals, ect) that’s were you stop because:

Many of them are uneducated they wouldn't be able to follow all these difficult concepts that preterism teaches.

I disagree throughout history were ever the gospel has gone education has also gone. I also have a higher view of people and know that people can learn and understand concepts far greater than the “educated” give them credit for. When we cross over from darkness to light we desire to read his word and to grow in the knowledge of him.

Also as I have grown and developed my understanding of the bible I feel complied to teach the whole bible not just parts. Jesus told us to teach them all that he commanded, and to make disciples of people.

You could care less about preterism but what do you teach when you come to passages like Matt. 24, Revelation, Dan. 9, and other “end times” passages? Do you deal with them or skip over them? I am a Christian who teaches the word of God and teaches all passages no matter how hard or how “irrelevant” (as you say).

Why? Because it is irrelevant in the large picture of things. Irrelevant you ask? Yes, irrelevant. People are hungry, people are going to a Christless eternity, people are living in constant fear of their lives due to civil war, people are ravaged with the HIV virus, etc....people could care less......

Lest we forget, the world could care less about preterism. Perhaps a awakening to this will help put things in perspective.

Well with this standard we should stop teaching a whole lot of other things like election, the trinity, the second coming, spiritual gifts, baptism or anything that does not meet these temporal problems (aids, civil war, hunger, et al) of these people.

Some of the principle of preterism can go a lot further to strengthen some ones faith by demonstrating that God is faithful to deliver the just from destruction and punish the unjust either now or in the final judgment.

I am going to bow out for the night, and might be back later to see what hornets nest I stirred up. Real life calls.

Studyhound

[Freak]

Studyhound--

Nobody is implying we shouldn't teach believers theological truths. Quite the opposite. We should be teaching Christian doctrine. So, I agree. My concerns lie with all these complex theories we have invented that most Westerns have trouble understanding.

It is apparent you haven't traveled to many third world countries. I have lived in Africa, have traveled extensively throughout the third world and realize that most believers in these lands lack even the basic education and you tell me they are going to understand or care about the various theories of preterism, or the Open View, or Calvinism, Wesley's view on santification, etc.? Yeah right! While in the midst of civil war, extreme suffering, poverty, hardships of all kinds, these believers are not interested in end time theories. They are more concerned about the basics--the nature of God, how one saved, developing a relationship with Christ, how to evangelize, etc. That's why I say the world could care less about preterism. Unless you have traveled to nearly 30 nations as I have for nearly 20 years and have lived in many different nations ministering in numerous churches then I really don't think you can say otherwise.

[Hitch]

LMAO@Freak

What makes you such a whiner Freak? Is iit you're strange obbsession with preterism?

Did your meds run out again?

For all your droning on and on about preterism, I'll wager you've never read Gentry, or Boettner,,, i n fact you've never read any thing of length by a preterist author have you? If you were to quit bragging about your many travels and years of ministry you might have time to actually learn something about your obbsession. Then you could whine with some authority. Now that is what the poor folks in China really need. Its important that they know you're here , after all your travels, and whining on and on about something you have repetedly proclaimed is an unimportant fad.(hmmmmm makes me wonder..)

Going on a and on like that then insisting its just a passing fad is not the action of a rational man.

Hitch

[studyhound]

Nobody is implying we shouldn't teach believers theological truths. Quite the opposite. We should be teaching Christian doctrine. So, I agree. My concerns lie with all these complex theories we have invented that most Westerns have trouble understanding.

My point is to teach the bible every part from Gen. 1.1 to Rev. 22.21. If you don’t them you are doing a disservice to the people you are ministering to. II Tim. 3.16,17 says “all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly finished unto good works.

It is apparent you haven't traveled to many third world countries. I have lived in Africa, have traveled extensively throughout the third world and realize that most believers in these lands lack even the basic education and you tell me they are going to understand or care about the various theories of preterism, or the Open View, or Calvinism, Wesley's view on santification, etc.? Yeah right!

Yes I am! Just because you have such a low view oft these people doesn’t mean they don’t desire to know God in a greater way. I was someone who labeled as an illiterate and set aside and no one gave me a chance to prove otherwise. So I set out to overcome my shortcomings and prove them wrong. I have. So I find it personally insulting and insulting that you find my brothers and sisters in Christ so dim.

While in the midst of civil war, extreme suffering, poverty, hardships of all kinds, these believers are not interested in end time theories. They are more concerned about the basics--the nature of God, how one saved, developing a relationship with Christ, how to evangelize, etc. That's why I say the world could care less about preterism. Unless you have traveled to nearly 30 nations as I have for nearly 20 years and have lived in many different nations ministering in numerous churches then I really don't think you can say otherwise.

I may not have been to a bizzlion countries but I have met more than my fair share of Christian from other countries who took whatever means necessary to know God. So if you limit them to milk that’s as far as they will grow.

My concerns lie with all these complex theories we have invented that most Westerns have trouble understanding.

Just because it is complex does not make it wrong or something that should not be taught. It seems to me that you are controlling these people Christian walk and only giving them what you see is fit for them. Next time you are over in another country ask some one if they have read Matt. 24 and see if they want to talk about it. I sure they will, I know I did when I read it and did not understand it.

[Hitch]

b]It is apparent you haven't traveled to many third world countries. I have lived in Africa, have traveled extensively throughout the third world and realize that most believers in these lands lack even the basic education and you tell me they are going to understand or care about the various theories of preterism, or the Open View, or Calvinism, Wesley's view on santification, etc.? Yeah right! While in the midst of civil war, extreme suffering, poverty, hardships of all kinds, these believers are not interested in end time theories[/b] I see you're not so sick you can t bragg. but what is your whining and boasting here going to do to solve the poverty and hardships you refer to?

Hitch

[Darth Xena]

Dear Studyhound:

Thank you. I think your points complemented and dovetailed very nicely with mine. Paul exhorted us to teach the whole counsel of God. No matter how we are going to quibble on percentages (and I see no reason not to accept Payne's figure), eschatology is a major part of the NT, and in fact the whole book of Revelation is an eschatological book. Do we throw that book out as irrelevant? Do the churches in China not have that in their Bibles, or do they simply not care about it? Ironically that is the only book in the entire Bible that promises a special blessing to those who read it. It is the eternal eschatological perspetive that gives great hope to the suffereing and the persecuted which is why Christ, when writing personally to the persecuted church gave them an eschatology lesson. That point remains.

[Solly]

Brower, New Dictionary of Biblical Theology: Eschatology cannot be confined to those parts of scripture addressing the post-mortem fate of individuals, nor understood simply in terms of the end of our space-time continuum. Biblical eschatology may be defined as the direction and goal of God's active covenant faithfulness in and for his created order.
Vos, Eschatology of the Old Testament: It is not biblical to hold that eschatology is a sort of appendix to soteriology, a consummation of the saving work of God. Eschatology is not necessarily bound up with soteriology. So conceived it does not take into account that a whole chapter of eschatology is written before sin.

My two favourite Esch quotes at the moment. Both show the importance of Eschatology, not as a kind of End Times Watch, but as providing the framework for our understanding of God's work, and defining specific areas of theology, such as kingdom, Church, Israel, Prophecy, the power of evil, etc.
It is not a pop theology, when you get away from the garishly coloured dispie paperbacks that stuff our Christian bookshops, but a matter of the fundamental Biblical structure that keeps one from an over-reliance on proof texting, and unwarranted eisegesis, and of course personal hobby horse riding.

[Darth Xena]

Very well said Solly... eschatology deals not just with what is future (all schools) or a focus on what is past (primarily preterism) but with God's working out of His ultimate plan and goal of redemption and faithfulness.

[Solly]

To that extent, you have converted me DD!! Though I was on the way with the Biblical Theology stuff I am reading.

Hmmm, need something...





















:yipee: ahhh...

[Freak]

Studyhound--

A few comments are in order after your last post.

First. You said: My point is to teach the bible every part from Gen. 1.1 to Rev. 22.21.

Huh? When you are on evangelistic trips you don't have the time to teach every part from Genesis to Revelation. Why do you think Billy Graham is so respected and loved? Because he sticks with one message--the Gospel. Did not Paul tell us he was determined to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified? Yes, the Scriptures should be taught but realize that even few churches here in America even come close to going through the whole Bible. One might not go word by word through all the Scriptures but the main events may be covered.

Besides my concerns lie with preterism. The Scriptures tells us:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly finished unto good works.

All Scripture not preterism is given by inspiration. That is what this thread is about. Preterism is irrelevant. It is another theory taught by men and the world needs to be taught Scripture not preterism.

You go on: Just because you have such a low view oft these people doesn’t mean they don’t desire to know God in a greater way.

Your wrong. I have a high view that is why I spend the time, energy, money traveling to third world nations. Some of these believers are the most dedicated believers in the world as they suffer for Jesus. My adopted brother, Francis, lives in Nigeria, I see him all the time. But the fact is the people do not have advantages that we have in America. It's a fact. We know more about the sciences, mathematics, and yes even about theology. I have yet been to a church where the people wanted to know about limited atonement, or the heresy of Arius. They could care less. In fact, I'll give you an example--I just got back from Haiti where we held daily pastor conferences and during the Q&A I did not hear anyone ask about preterism or furturism, etc. but they did want to hear about how to share your faith, how to raise your kids, how to pray, etc. Why? Because, as I have pointed out preterim is irrelevant. That does not mean the second coming of Jesus is a non-issue. No! It is a important issue but outside of that much of the end times issues is up to debate. People overseas don't care about preterism.

You go on: I may not have been to a bizzlion countries but I have met more than my fair share of Christian from other countries who took whatever means necessary to know God.

Ok. Yes we know God through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ not through preterism. My points stand.

You also say: It seems to me that you are controlling these people Christian walk and only giving them what you see is fit for them.

What are you talking about?!? I was invited. They controlled the events. I didn't. They wanted to learn more about essential Christianity not preterism.

Looks like my points still stand.

[Darth Xena]

Dear Solly:

Well I am glad that I accomplished that much... I feel that way about eschatology no matter what position one holds, it is very important and undergirds systematic theology. It is as I mentioned before it answers the question, "Now what?"

[Freak]

BTW, I leave for Germany on Wednesday. I'll report to you if the pastors there are interested in preterism or futurism, ok?

[Solly]

Today @ 03:35 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

Dear Solly:

Well I am glad that I accomplished that much... I feel that way about eschatology no matter what position one holds, it is very important and undergirds systematic theology. It is as I mentioned before it answers the question, "Now what?"

I prefer Biblical Theology to Systematic Theology, since the later can fall prey to proof texting out of contxt, whereas BT, and Esch with it, must indeed take account of context - it is its lifeblood.

And as far as preaching the Gospel goes, if you stick with a man centred four spiritual laws approach, then you don't need much of either. but if that was the case, why did Paul stay up past midnight preaching? The need of the hour is specifically a whole scripture approach, that is why our churches are so untaught, and why so many errors creep in.

[Darth Xena]

Freak you are making less and less sense and making it clear that your motivation is simply a personal dislike for preterism in particular and not even eschatology in general which then makes most of your "proofs" ring hollow. I am waiting for your clarification that you feel just as strongly about futurism, if not, you are inconsistent.

Huh? When you are on evangelistic trips you don't have the time to teach every part from Genesis to Revelation.

And I doubt that you have time to teach about EDF either but you have already said that is important. So, witnessing time considerations in soul-winning crusades determine which doctrines are irrelevant or not? Why then did God not just give us John 3:16 and be done with it. He wrote the rest of the Bible for a reason don't you think?

Why do you think Billy Graham is so respected and loved? Because he sticks with one message--the Gospel. Did not Paul tell us he was determined to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified?
Did not Paul also tells us that he was innocent of the blood of all men because he did not shy away from proclaiming the whole counsel of God? The fact is that Christ crucified is an eschatological event.
Yes, the Scriptures should be taught but realize that even few churches here in America even come close to going through the whole Bible. One might not go word by word through all the Scriptures but the main events may be covered.

Nice anecdotal facts that prove nothing to the point at hand.

Besides my concerns lie with preterism. The Scriptures tells us:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly finished unto good works.

All Scripture not preterism is given by inspiration. That is what this thread is about. Preterism is irrelevant. It is another theory taught by men and the world needs to be taught Scripture not preterism.
:rofl: There you go assuming what you need to prove... IF preterism is taught by Scripture then it is part of the ALL Scripture that the Timothy verse is speaking of. What a begged question there Freak. You have once again proven the point and shown that most of your alleged points on this thread were a smokescreen for your true intentions. Your point has nothing to do what the suffering church cares about, or what is important in evangelism whatsoever for you do not have the same problem with futurism. Then the issue is not that preterism or eschatology is irrelevant, but that you believe this point of view is incorrect. You should have just stated that up front instead of all the rabbit trails and red herrings you offered. The very fact now that you think it important enough to bellyache about this much shows that you believe that having a correct eschatology is important. I do not think I have ever seen you behave so inconsistently before. Well Freak I have invited you before, and I do so again, if you believe so strongly that preterism is incorrect, and now feel comfortable loudly opening your mouth about it, then debate me on it. If it is so "faddish" and incorrect you should have no problems defeating the point.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:46 AM
Solly:



I prefer Biblical Theology to Systematic Theology, since the later can fall prey to proof texting out of contxt, whereas BT, and Esch with it, must indeed take account of context - it is its lifeblood.

Point taken, we are speaking the same meaning I think. You know my heart with this issue.

far as preaching the Gospel goes, if you stick with a man centred four spiritual laws approach, then you don't need much of either. but if that was the case, why did Paul stay up past midnight preaching?

Wow, exellent point Solly.

hour is specifically a whole scripture approach, that is why our churches are so untaught, and why so many errors creep in.

I concur. With birth must come growth.

[Darth Xena]

Today @ 10:38 AM
Freak:

BTW, I leave for Germany on Wednesday. I'll report to you if the pastors there are interested in preterism or futurism, ok?


I am more interested in learning what God is interested in thanks anyway. And from my reading of the Bible, God is very interested in eschatology.

[Pilgrim]

I also tend to think that an obsession with all things end times is largely an American Evangelical/Fundamentalist fad. But so what?

[GrayPilgrim]

Today @ 10:46 AM
Solly:

And as far as preaching the Gospel goes, if you stick with a man centred four spiritual laws approach, then you don't need much of either. but if that was the case, why did Paul stay up past midnight preaching? The need of the hour is specifically a whole scripture approach, that is why our churches are so untaught, and why so many errors creep in.

[off topic aside]
Solly,

Few quick questions along these lines. Have you read either Murray's The Forogtten Spurgeon or Dallimore's George Whitefield? Both of these deal with a more biblical manner of presenting the Gospel than that which you rightly have critiqued.
I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment and thought you might have read or be interested in these two bios.

GP

[studyhound]

Huh? When you are on evangelistic trips you don't have the time to teach every part from Genesis to Revelation. Why do you think Billy Graham is so respected and loved? Because he sticks with one message--the Gospel. Did not Paul tell us he was determined to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified? Yes, the Scriptures should be taught but realize that even few churches here in America even come close to going through the whole Bible. One might not go word by word through all the Scriptures but the main events may be covered.

I see you are not a teacher of the word just an evangalist. So you lose even more credablity as someone who should be talking about preterism. You come and go and preach the gosple then leave and don' t take time to disipel these people on the whole councel of God.

I personal have a problem with Billy grams method, out of those "crusades" he give a pop Christianity view of salavation "be saved an all will be ok in life or here's your fire insurance." No counting the cost, no radical change, just, now jesus lives inside now go home.

All Scripture not preterism is given by inspiration. That is what this thread is about. Preterism is irrelevant. It is another theory taught by men and the world needs to be taught Scripture not preterism.

Well the bible does in fact teach preterism wether you like to admit it or not. and I have a sneaking suspiction the you teach it out in other countries. If you teach that Jesus is the son of God and fulfilled old Testament prophices then you are a preterist and preterism is important to these people.

Bty All preterist means is past fulfillment.

I leave for Germany on Wednesday. I'll report to you if the pastors there are interested in preterism or futurism, ok?

Ok? no ask about Rev. Matt. 24 (or its parallels) Dan, Zech. first john or any other book of the bible they all deal in some measure with so form of eschatology.

(edited for spelling)

[Freak]

You said: ...and making it clear that your motivation is simply a personal dislike for preterism in particular and not even eschatology in general.

Preterism is another theory in the midst of dozens. I dislike the value being put on preterism as it is irrelevant to the world.

Now, you are correct in saying that I do NOT dislike eschatology. I believe and promote the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Solly]

Today @ 04:11 PM
GrayPilgrim:



[off topic aside]
Solly,

Few quick questions along these lines. Have you read either Murray's The Forogtten Spurgeon or Dallimore's George Whitefield? Both of these deal with a more biblical manner of presenting the Gospel than that which you rightly have critiqued.
I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment and thought you might have read or be interested in these two bios.

GP

GP, no I haven't read those particular books. My view was formulated in the heat of battle you might say. Our denomination has tended towards an introspective, text based form of preaching, that can lead to some real howlers, and also ignore so much that would correct those mistakes. I make it a point to always preach on the section that leads up to the verse, before tackling the verse. I also discovered volumes like the aforementioned NDBT, Graeme Goldsworthy, Geerhardus Vos, etc. I love the new BT stuff that is coming out of IVP etc. That, linked with my Calvinistic heritage which includes, Whitefield, Gadsby, Spurgeon, etc, has given the direction to my preaching: Doctrine, Experience, Practice.
My favourite books on Preaching are Barth's Homilectics and William Still's, The Work of the Pastor.

[Freak]

Study Hound--

You said: I personal have a problem with Billy grams method, out of those "crusades" he give a pop Christianity view of salavation "be saved an all will be ok in life or here's your fire insurance." No counting the cost, no radical change just, now jesus lives in side now go home.

You have problem with him preaching Jesus Christ as the way to be saved? That's completely insane. No radical change? What are you talking about? I surrendered to Jesus Christ as a result of his ministry (along with millions of others). I have literally laid my life down for Christ---so looks like your comments have been proven false onc