Judgment and Hell [Archive] - TheologyWeb Campus

Aseity

February 27th 2004, 11:31 PM

By William Webster

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And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds...And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–12, 15)

The word of God warns there is a day of judgment coming when all men will stand before God. Hebrews 9:27 states: ‘And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.’ The judgment of God is an inescapable reality, so any discussion of judgment must include an examination of the subject of hell. Our Creator is a God of love and mercy. But he is also a God of wrath and a righteous judge because he is a God of infinite holiness. Over and over again scripture emphasizes these truths about our Creator:

God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all (1 Jn. 1:5).

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come (Rev. 4:8).

Let the heavens be glad and the earth rejoice...before the Lord for He is coming; for He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness, and the peoples in His faithfulness (Ps. 96:11–13).

The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (Rom. 1:18).

God is now declaring to men that all everywhere must repent for He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness (Acts 17:30–31).

God will bring to account every thought, word and deed. He is omniscient—he knows us through and through:

There is no creature hidden from his sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do (Heb. 4:13).

His eyes are upon the ways of man. He sees all his steps (Job 34:21).

Every man’s way is clean in his own eyes but the Lord weighs the motives (Prov. 16:3).

You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men but God knows your hearts...(Lk. 16:15).

Every careless word that men shall speak they shall render account of it in the day of judgment (Mt. 12:36).

God knows our hearts. What goes on within us matters to God. Jesus made this clear when he said: ‘I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart’ (Mt. 5:28). As far as God is concerned—to think it is to do it. He hates sin and his anger is expressed in what scripture calls the wrath of God—a wrath that is revealed in the course of this life, and which will be fully revealed at the day of judgment:

The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (Rom. 1:18).

Do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance. But because of your stubborness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds (Rom. 2:4-6).

When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day (2 Thes. 1:7-9).

And they said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come and who is able to stand (Rev. 6:16).

Because God is holy and just he must judge and punish sin. If we want to know God’s evaluation of sin we need look no further than the cross of Christ. The cross is a public display of God’s judgment against sin. God is a God of wrath and judgment and there is coming a great and terrible day of the Lord for all of those outside of Jesus Christ:

The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon to blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes (Joel 2:31).
And angels who did not keep their domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day (Jude 6).

The Teaching of Jesus

Hell is a reality; a real and physical place—eternal in duration. In hell, both soul and body will be confined, separated from God in unspeakable and unimaginable torment. There are three major words in the New Testament which are used to describe hell: Hades, the Lake of Fire and Gehenna. The word Gehenna is the most thoroughly descriptive of what hell is like. John Blanchard gives us some historical background to this word:

About 750 B.C. King Ahaz was ruler of Judah. A spineless idolater, he adopted some of the most revolting heathen practices of his day. Among the worst was the offering of human sacrifices—he even had his own sons burned to death. These atrocities were carried out in the valley of Ben Hinnom, a place just south–west of Jerusalem and today called Wadi al–Rababi. Ahaz paid dearly for his sin. His political alliances came unstuck and in one battle he lost 120,000 men. His place was taken by the godly King Hezekiah, but he was succeeded in turn by his son Manasseh, who undid all the good his father had done. He rebuilt altars to heathen idols, reinstituted human sacrifices and, like Ahaz, burned his own sons to death, again in the valley of Ben Hinnom. Manasseh was followed by his equally corrupt son Amon, who lasted only two years before being assassinated.
His eight year old son Josiah took his place, and by the time he was sixteen he had begun a programme of vigorous reformation. Altars were torn down, images were smashed, and the pieces scattered over the graves of those who had bowed down to them in worship. In his crusade Josiah singled out the valley of Ben Hinnom for particular attention. From being a place of idol worship he turned it into a public rubbish dump in which all the offal and filth of Jerusalem was poured. Later, the bodies of animals and even the corpses of criminals were flung there and left to rot or to be consumed by the fire that was kept constantly burning to dispose of the stinking mass of garbage. As one writer comments, it was a place where ‘the fires never stopped burning and the worms never stopped eating.’ We can now see how this otherwise unimportant piece of land fits into the picture. The Hebrew place–name was originally Ge(ben)hinnom (the valley of the sons of Hinnom). The shortened form of the name was Ge–hinnom of which the Greek translation became Gehenna. The English word for Gehenna, with all its imagery of shame, disgrace, sin, guilt, judgment and punishment, is ‘hell’ (John Blanchard, Whatever Happened to Hell? (Evangelical Press: Durham, 1993), pp. 41-42).

Fire is the word used most often in scripture to describe hell. Gehenna is the place where the fire never ceases to burn. The word Gehenna is used twelve times in the New Testament with eleven of those by Jesus himself. John the Baptist gives this description of Jesus Christ as Judge: ‘His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire’ (Mt. 3:12). The book of Revelation predicts that at the last judgment ‘if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire’ (Rev. 20:15). The image of an eternal unceasing fire graphically depicts the agony and torment of hell. The descriptions of hell recorded in scripture are terrifying. They are meant to terrify us. The Lord Jesus had a great deal to say about hell which is calculated to sober and warn us:

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, ‘Raca,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court, and whoever shall say ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell (Mt. 5:22).

And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell (Mt. 5:29).

And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched (Mk. 9:43-44).

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne...Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Mt. 25:31,41,46).

Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 13:40–42; Cf. Mt. 13:49–50).

Do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28).

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell (Mt. 23:33)?

No one who takes these teachings of Jesus seriously can fail to be greatly sobered by his words. Hell is a place of unending torment—a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, of darkness, isolation, despair—of unceasing suffering and pain. John Calvin provides this commentary on hell:

Now, because no description can deal adequately with the gravity of God’s vengeance against the wicked, their torments and tortures are figuratively expressed to us by physical things, that is, by darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12; 22:13), unquenchable fire (Matt. 3:12; Mark 9:43; Isa. 66:24), an undying worm gnawing at the heart (Isa. 66:24). By such expressions the Holy Spirit certainly intended to confound all our senses with dread: as when he speaks of ‘a deep Gehenna prepared from eternity, fed with fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it’ (Isa. 30:33). As by such details we should be enabled in some degree to conceive the lot of the wicked, so we ought especially to fix our thoughts upon this: how wretched it is to be cut off from all fellowship with God. And not that only but to feel his sovereign power against you that you cannot escape being pressed by it. For first, his displeasure is like a raging fire, devouring and engulfing everything it touches. Secondly, all creatures so serve him in the execution of his judgment that they to whom the Lord will openly show his wrath will feel heaven, earth, sea, living beings, and all that exists aflame, as it were, with dire anger against them, and armed to destroy them. Accordingly, it was no insignificant thing that the apostle declared when he said that the faithless ‘shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, excluded from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might’ (II Thes. 1:9)...Consequently, unhappy consciences find no rest from being troubled and tossed by a terrible whirlwind, from feeling that they are being torn asunder by a hostile Deity, pierced and lanced by deadly darts, quaking at God’s lightning bolt, and being crushed by the weight of his hand—so that it would be more bearable to go down into any bottomless depths and chasms than to stand for a moment in these terrors (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion. Found in The Library of Christian Classics (Westminster: Philadelphia), Volume XIX, Book III.XXV.12, pp. 1007-8).

Each of us will die one day and we will enter eternity where we will live forever. Scripture declares that we will be in one of two places: in heaven or hell. There is no teaching in scripture about purgatory. Once we die it is too late to rectify our situation if we have not faced and dealt with our sinful state before God. We are warned to be prepared to meet our God. Thankfully, he has provided a way for us to be prepared to meet him and to be rescued from eternal judgment through his Son. This is in part why the gospel is called good news.

Through Jesus Christ, we can stand before God with confidence rather than dread. In Christ, we can be delivered from the guilt and power of sin and from this eternal hell. We can receive forgiveness and eternal life. This is the good news of the gospel. But in sharing the gospel which makes these promises we must also preach fearlessly against sin, warning men that they must turn from sin to Christ and flee the wrath of God that is to come (Mt. 3:7–8). Those who reject the gospel of Christ and die in sin will suffer eternally in hell.

whoknew

February 28th 2004, 12:32 AM

Aseity, I will attempt to defend annihilationism against your arguments.

"And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched (Mk. 9:43-44)."

This comment by Jesus is an allusion to Isaiah 66:24 which says, "And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched . They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." This quote refers to corpses, which are not experiencing conscious torment. What does Isaiah mean about the worms not dying? To me, it sounds like he is referring to a pile of corpses that is never consumed by the worms, that never rots away, and therefore always remains a sign of the judgement of their bad deeds. The worm not dying refers to how the wicked are forever held in disdain.

And what does an unquenchable fire refer to? The unquenchable fire terminology is used by God in Ezek 20:47-48 where He says, "And say to the forest of the South, 'Hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall by scorched by it. All flesh shall see that I, the Lord haved kindled it; it shall not be quenched."
This unquenchable fire to me sounds like something that cannot be stopped, that destroys; it seems like a symbol of the inability of a person at judgement dday to repent at that late stage. In other words, the unquenchable fire carries connotations of destroying and being a sealed fate. Now onto your next citation.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne...Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Mt. 25:31,41,46)."

Here one goes into eternal punishment and the other into eternal life. Is not conscious torment also life? It's a lower quality of life, but still life. So what kind of punishment is eternal? Obviously death is eternal. And Jesus in John 11:26 says that believing in him keeps you from dying; where is death ever eqauted with torture in the Bible?

And if you want to know the meaning of eternal fire, check Jude 7, which says, "... as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Elsewhere in the bible it is clear that this 'eternal fire' turned these cities to rubble and then stopped burning.

"Do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28)."

In this citation, you need to show where the word destroyed is equated with torture. Everywhere I see the word in the bible, it refers to rendering something into nothing.

One scripture which you didn't cite is perhaps the most convincing of never-ending torment in the bible, at least to those who take the bible literalistically, and this scripture is Revelation 14: 10-11. To start off with, this passage doesn't support the horendously painful torture which you envision, at least when you consider the metaphorical nature of fire and brimstone. Second, the torment is not said to last forever and ever, only the smoke is definitely said to rise up forever and ever, and guess what: in Isaiah 34 smoke is also said to rise up forever and ever, and this smoke comes from the judgement of eternal fire on the land of Edom. It is therefore clear that when God says smoke will rise up forever and ever, he isn't speaking literally. Even the animals in the land are metaphorical, and they don't seem the least bit tormented from living in a land of metaphorical eternal fire with metaphorical smoke rising up forever and ever, and of course, people are passing through Edom at this time, contrary to God's assertion that they never would.

Aseity

February 28th 2004, 01:29 AM

Aseity, I will attempt to defend annihilationism against your arguments.

"Do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28)."

In this citation, you need to show where the word destroyed is equated with torture. Everywhere I see the word in the bible, it refers to rendering something into nothing.

Actually, the only scripture which I believe gives your case of neverending torment any support is Revelation 14: 10-11, and this doesn't support the horendously painful torture which you envision, at least when you consider the metaphorical nature of fire and brimstone. Actually, if you read Isaiah 34, you will see that things which God says will last forever and ever sometimes don't last forever and ever, and that animals don't seem the least bit tormented by eternal fire in their land--in actuality, even the animals are metaphorical living in the land of metaphorical eternal fire with metaphorical smoke rising up forever and ever.

All the symbols, types and images used in the Bible to describe Hell point to a far greater reality, worse than what we could ever possibly imagine. Utter HORROR for the unrepentant wicked for infinity!

No *TORTURE* in Hell, my friend, only eternal concious *TORMENT.*

The Hermeneutics of Annihilationalism:

The Theological Method of Edward Fudge
by Robert A. Peterson*

My purpose in this essay is to evaluate the biblical hermeneutic of the evangelical conditionalist Edward William Fudge. I have chosen Fudge, the author of The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Final Punishment, for two reasons.1 First, his work has attracted considerable attention of late. As evidence of this fact I cite two essays in Universalism and the Doctrine of Hell, edited by Nigel Cameron.2 John W. Wenham ascribes importance to Fudge's book when he includes it with three others that, in his estimation, have not been answered by traditionalist writers:

I have been waiting since 1973 for a reply to the massive work of Froom (2,476 pages), to Atkinson's closely argued 112 pages, to Guillebaud's 67 and (more important) to the one additional book which has appeared on the conditionalist side: Edward Fudge's The Fire That Consumes3

Wenham's remarks occur in the introduction to his essay, "The Case for Conditional Immortality." In the essay that follows Wenham's, Kendall S. Harmon makes "The Case Against Conditionalism: A Response to Edward William Fudge."4 Notice that when Harmon seeks to interact with a contemporary annihilationist, he chooses Fudge. Harmon gives two reasons for so doing: "First, although not as prominent as John Stott or Philip Hughes, Mr. Fudge's work is more substantial than theirs (500 pages) and is devoted exclusively to the doctrine of hell. Secondly, Mr. Fudge's book has been praised for its tone and its thoroughness."5 Plainly, the stock of The Fire That Consumes is on the rise.

My second reason for choosing to evaluate the biblical interpretation of Fudge is that in the preface to The Fire That Consumes he says that he has given attention to hermeneutics and that he invites evaluation of his work:

This book is written to be read - and argued with! I have no ax to grind and no cause to champion; I have tried to follow the ordinary methods of sound, biblical exegesis. Competent scholars and serious students are cordially invited to enter into dialogue. Check the statements made here. Weigh the evidence. Examine the arguments. Measure the work by every proper standard. All that matters is that we seek God's truth for His glory and the salvation of sinners!6

I appreciate the openness Fudge here expresses. In this paper I take up one aspect of his challenge. I propose to evaluate his hermeneutic within the framework of his theological method.7 Like most writers on the doctrine of hell, Fudge does not devote a section of his book to hermeneutics.8 Nevertheless, he refers to principles of interpretation throughout The Fire That Consumes. By studying these stated principles and the hermeneutic implicit in his exegesis, we can discern some aspects of his hermeneutical method.

Fudge's book totals 500 pages. Instead of trying to evaluate all of his exegesis, I have chosen to base my evaluation primarily on his treatment of three NT passages: Matthew 25:41, 46; Revelation 14:9-11; and Revelation 20:10, 15. I have chosen these passages because they have figured most prominently in the history of the doctrine of hell. Indeed, Augustine, Thomas, Calvin, Edwards, and Shedd, to name the stalwarts of the orthodox view of hell, all regard one or more of these passages as teaching the endless conscious torment of the wicked.9 I have studied Fudge's treatment of these passages (within the context of his whole book) in order to evaluate his hermeneutical approach and method. As a result I summarize Fudge's hermeneutic under the following headings.

USE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT
continue here:
http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar21.htm

whoknew

February 28th 2004, 01:36 AM

Aseity

February 28th 2004, 03:18 AM

[QUOTE=Aseity]All the symbols, types and images used in the Bible to describe Hell point to a far greater reality, worse than what we could ever possibly imagine. Utter HORROR for the unrepentant wicked for infinity!

No *TORTURE* in Hell, my friend, only eternal concious *TORMENT.*

Aseity, perhaps you could offer support for your above assertion, as the paper you presented does not.
The paper also contains almost no arguments, just assertions that Fudge didn't make good arguments. It really doesn't have much application to any of the points I made, and I haven't read Fudge's book.

The one relevant point which I found in the paper was the argument that the word "perish" can't mean "to become extinct" since Jesus didn't go extinct when he went to Hell; but it could have been that Jesus didn't experience perishing, but only suffered, unless you know a passage where Jesus said he would perish in hell; from what I know, he only said evildoers would perish in hell. Therefore, it seems to fine to assume that people will go extinct in hell, while Jesus survived it. Still, if perish means eternal conscious torment, then Jesus didn't perish in hell because he didn't experience eternal conscious torment, or if he did, then his divinity absorbed it into a finite amount of time; if his divinity saved him from perishing as in eternal conscious torment, his divinity could save him from perishing as in going extinct.

No where, in all my years as a Christian have I found a verse where it says The LORD Jesus Christ went to Hell, The lake of Fire. The only ones that go to Hell, the lake of Fire, are the unrepentant evil wicked sinful.

Jesus Christ did not perish, he was crucified died and buried and He arose from the dead. He died on that brutal roman stake for the His Elect and shed His blood for the remission of their sins.

You need to have a good study of that article again. Take it more slowly this time and look up *ALL* the verses quoted.

After that, go through this one and if that does not help you I can only conclude that you are deceived by the god of this world. I pray to God that you are not.

Is Hell Real or Simply Annihilation?
by Tony Warren

Hell: n. Theology. [HEB. (she'owl), the hidden] The place or state of the condemned dead]. The unseen abode of condemned spirits of those who have died. [GR. (hades), the unseeing]. The state of the condemned dead. A place where there is no seeing. a state of the dead where they are unaware or unknowing. [(geenna), of hebrew origin, valley of the son of hinnom]. ge-hinnom; used figuratively as a state of punishment for the condemned souls of the dead. [GR. (tar-tar-o'o), lowest abyss of hades]. used to signify eternal punishment of the condemned souls of the dead.

Introduction

Many are the proponents of the doctrine of, "Death means annihilation," who take these words that are used in scripture to illustrate hell, and claim that they allude to their own theories of annihilation. One of the many problems with this idea is that scripture doesn't exist in a vacuum. All scripture must be taken into consideration when defining doctrine, and it must harmonize when considered together. The most basic of sound hermeneutics is the knowledge that we haven't come to correct doctrine until all scripture has no conflict with all other scriptures. Then, and only then, can we be relatively sure that we have come to the real truth of God's Word. When we do this, we see not only that annihilation cannot be an accurate doctrine, but that it is totally inconsistent and contradictory in most instances. Is this theory more wishful thinking than careful exegesis? It would certainly appear so.
We can certainly understand that by necessity the unsaved must think this way because if they do not, then they must spend the rest of their lives in abject terror of the coming recompense. Either that, or they must turn to God for Salvation, and they love the world far too much to choose that option. Therefore, in order to keep their lifestyle, and retain their peace of mind, they have no choice but to deny the terror, and believe the lie. To not do so would have them spend their lives miserably waiting the day. But sadly, today in some circles, it is the Church itself who is now parroting the line that death is annihilation. This is the result of years of this plague of liberal and humanistic philosophies creeping inside it's walls. It is part of the pestilence of political correctness which has engulfed many Churches. But let us examine this doctrine in the light of what God says, and not under the shadow of what man's idea of fairness and compassion, and man's distorted view of what is a loving God.

The Biblical Realities of Hell

As in the definitions listed above, the word Hell is used in scripture in two ways. First as the place or state where the souls of the unsaved who have died (first death - death of the body) and are under condemnation of God await in unseen silence, their coming judgment. These are souls separated from the body by death and neither speak, think, nor have conscious existence. In other words, they don't live again or have conscious existence until the judgment day. This is the state of the souls of unsaved men who have died. Consider Psalms, speaking of the dead.

Psalms 31:17

"Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave".
Believers who die go to be with the Lord and they rest not in giving Glory to God and singing praises to His name around the throne. But the unsaved who die have no voice, as they "live not" (do not have conscious existence) until they are raised to judgment at the second resurrection.

Psalms 115:17

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence".
That is the destination of the souls of the unsaved. A place where they are unseen, and in silence. Contrast that with the souls of the believers when they leave their body in death, they don't go into this darkness of unseen silence, they immediately go to live and reign in the presence of Christ and praise Him for ever. This is just as Paul under inspiration of God declared,

2nd Corinthians 5:6-8

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".
This is our eternal destination when our souls leave the body (absent from the body) in death. We go to be in the presence of the Lord. Death to the true believer is not a cause for sadness, but for joy. Again, as Paul so magnificently put it,

Philippians 1:21

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain".
Gain because we'll finally be at our destination with the Lord! While the souls of the unsaved don't live or have conscious existence being in silence, the souls of those raised in Christ go to Heaven to live with Him! This contrast is again gloriously illustrated in Revelations Chapter 20, where speaking of the souls of the believers who were martyred, it says they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years. Then it contrasts that with the rest of those who died, saying,

Revelation 20:5

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection".
Clearly, there are two dead being spoken of here. The souls of the believers who died going to "live" and reign with Christ, having part in the first resurrection. And that contrasted with the souls of the unbelievers who died who live not again until the 1000 years are up. In other words, until the second Resurrection when these condemned will be raised to stand for judgment. Two destinations for the souls of the dead depending upon their Salvation. That place where the souls of the unsaved go is hell, waiting for Hell! A place or state of non life in silence awaiting the real Hell of eternal punishment after they are raised again (resurrected) to life to stand before God and be sentenced.

Hell is the synonym for death. The first Death (Hell) is this place of silence. The second death (Hell) is the lake of fire! One is reserved for the other, and at judgment will be cast into the other. For example,

Revelation 20:13-14

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".
In other words, death was cast into death, and Hell into Hell. And so when we think of hell, though we often think of the final Hell (lake of fire), we must keep in mind that there is a hell of reserving for the Hell which is judgment. A separation from God and punishment for sins which will cause great torment. Just as there is a death for the unsaved, which is merely a reserving for the second death of judgment.

2nd Peter 2:4

"For if God spared not the messengers that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
So you see, this is a Hell just as surely as the Hell that Jesus spoke about in the parable of lazarus of flames and torment. One hell reserved for the final judgment Hell. For one hell is a synonym for death, and of those under condemnation. All the scriptures lead to the same un-escapable conclusion. That the Judgment or punishment of Hell is not annihilation, but the wrath of God poured out on the wicked in punishment. So let us not be confused by death and hell being used in two different ways. They are synonymous with one being the reserved end, for the other.

The Pertinent Scriptures

Revelation 14:9-11

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name".
The fact is, all these who will receive the mark of the beast are the majority of those on the earth, with only a remnant refusing to worship Him. God says these all shall be tormented, and that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night. Is this the biblical language of annihilation, or is it clearly saying there is continual punishment here? The response I most often hear is that, "one can take any one or two verses on virtually any topic and come up with a point of view that is out of harmony with the rest of scripture." That is most certainly true, but what one cannot do is to take one or two passages, and say they're not true or that they don't really mean what they say. In other words, no one can make scripture not say what it says. If scripture says the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, then that's what God means. No one can turn around and say, "well that just means they're tormented a little while." Because that would be tortuous of scripture. Likewise, we can't take a verse which says, "they have no rest day nor night in this torment," and then claim that it doesn't really mean that, it means they are tormented a brief period and then have rest. Yet many have privately interpret scripture to actually mean that they do have rest from this torment after awhile. That's not only contradictory, it is blatant wresting of what is written.

I was told by some annihilationists that the passage in Revelation 14:11 was dubious because the Greek there cannot literally mean all day and all night. As support, they put forth the argument that it is the same Greek Paul used when he said he prayed day and night, and we know he didn't or else he wouldn't get anything else done. So they reason the Greek means that his praying was not confined to either the day or night.

Like a lot of things, at first glance, one might think that they have a good point. Except when we consider a few pertinent facts. They are trying to use one scripture denoting an ongoing event, to negate another scripture denoting an ongoing event. While I'll readily grant you that this phrase wouldn't always denote literally not resting at all (as in the case of Paul), it does most certainly denote continually. In other words, it would never denote a final or ultimate cessation of Paul's prayers, or a cessation of these torments as these people are desperately trying to make it mean. i.e., Paul was praying on a "continual" basis and likewise these marked in Revelation chapter 14 were continuously in torment. In both contexts, this is clearly seen. And so the analogy fails miserably because they're trying to make these Greek words mean the torment finally stopped, and the word actually means the opposite of what it says. This is the essence or wresting scripture. And of course this handling of the text can neither be justified in the Greek, nor in the context of the passage, which of course is the fact that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever (continuously). Nor is it justified in corinthians as Paul also meant continually, not cessation. So we have for ever and ever, and we have continually tormented. What's to debate? But we never have a lack of people trying to rationalize away what scripture say in order to hold to personal interpretations of it. But it can never be Biblically justified.

The bottom line is, God has every right to require as much punishment as He wants for the wages of sin, and man has no right to say it's either unfair, or unjustified, or (God Forbid) unrighteous. Which of course is what is really at the root of this "annihilation" or "death in death" doctrine. Man, in his own eyes, thinks that it's not really right for anyone to be punished thusly, and so he rationalizes how it's not really going to happen.

"..and they have no rest day nor night", does not equate to, "they have rest" or "soon they will have rest". Yet many say nothing in the passage says how long that punishment will be, only that while it is on-going there is no guarantee of rest from it." But in truth, that is adding to the passage, because God's Word says nothing about anyone having torment as long as it lasts. Those are their own interpretation, not God's Word. The Christian view should be that God means what He says! God's Word says the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever. God didn't say it goes up just as long as the burning lasts, and then will cease. It goes up for ever and ever, just as we are in the presence of God for ever and ever. The very same for ever and ever. But Theologians in their humanistic reasoning retorts, "..unfair, because that wouldn't be right to punish men for ever and ever." They simply don't comprehend the seriousness of sin. Are we to follow God's Word alone, or humanistic reasoning of what is right in our own eyes? The answer should be obvious, but sadly it is rationalized away.

Another scripture which makes the idea of annihilation null and void is Luke chapter 12.

Luke 12:4-5

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him".
Here God is telling us man has no need to fear anyone who can kill the body, but what he should fear is God who "after" He has killed, has the power to cast men into Hell. That is what man needs to fear. Why would man have to fear God if Hell was no more than the same death which man can bring? A Supposed annihilation. There is no fear in annihilation, you simply cease to exist. The fear is in God's judgment in the after life, after death. This scripture tells us that there must be a "fearful" judgment after the death of the body, which the unsaved men of the world should fear. Or as God put it so well (and as annihilationists ignore),

Hebrews 10:31

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".
The wrath of God is upon them, and it is not to give them what they will want (annihilation) when standing before the fearful God, it is to give them what God's justice demands, and what His Holy Word has declared. The end of the world will bring this final judgment in the wrath of God, and God speaks about how the wicked will be severed from the just and how they will be tormented in the fire.

Matthew 13:41-42

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth".
Screaming and grinding of teeth is the language of people being tormented, not the language of annihilation. We cannot simply ignore all these scriptures simply because it's palatable in today's anti-hell politically correct society to do so. They all tell the same story, and it's not that people simply will be destroyed or made to not exist.

Matthew 23:14

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation".
Clearly and without reservation, the very fact that there is greater and lessor damnation, proves conclusively that the judgment is not annihilation, but a real punishment meted out in degrees, "according to their works." Revelation Chapter 20 illustrates the very same principle as it says death and hell delivered up the dead and they were judged "according to their works." Also note it says deliver up those in death to judge them. But to place them right back in death or where they live not again makes no sense. And so again the scriptures bear out this truth.

Often the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is brought up as presenting a problem for the Christians who believe the torment of Hell is reserved for those under judgment of God. They say obviously this isn't about the final judgment, since the rich man still has brothers living on earth, and in fact, it must be prior to Jesus' death on the cross and thus has no final bearing on the subject at hand.

But again, this is not a justifiable argument, as it's a Parable. A Proverb! It's not a historical or real life event that happened already. It's a proverb told in the language of the people, just as the Proverb of the Vineyard or the fig tree or the two sons. It presents no problem, because it is a parable. There is no casting into the Hell which is the second death until after the Judgment throne of God, so how could it be a past event or a problem? We know that Satan is a defeated foe by the cross of Christ, yet his judgment is after Christ returns. Then is he cast into the lake of fire, it wasn't a past event. Likewise, the dead aren't cast into the hell which is the second death when they die. They are merely in Hell which is the state of the dead, in unseen and unseeing silence, the place where they are unaware (hades) or have not conscious existence, living not again until they are raised from that dead to stand for judgment at the Last day! They are raised up at the second resurrection and judged, and only then are they cast into the second death, which is the lake of fire. This parable of Lazarus and the rich man is giving us a picture, a look into just what Hell (the second death) will be like. In point of fact, far from giving their argument strength, it weakens it. Because obviously whether they think it's before or after, there is no annihilation, there is stark abject torment! And how anyone could use this story to try and support annihilation is hard to even fathom.

If one's conclusions are wrong, it's generally because one's assumptions are wrong. Assumption is the mother of errors. God is showing us in Lazarus how awful hell will be, and how continual it is, and how there is no help for those cast into it, and how if people don't accept scriptures (signified by the words, "Moses and the Prophets") then they won't believe even if one rose from the dead to tell them (Jesus). This is in no way talking about a actual thing that had happened, for no one has been Judged to be cast into that Hell as yet! Judgment is at the last day.

John 11:24

"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day".
Martha understood perfectly that there was a resurrection at the last day. No one has stood before God to be Judged for good and wickedness that they could be cast into Hell yet, that occurs at the last day at this second Resurrection. But Christ, and those raised up with Him are the First Resurrection. As He told Martha, "I AM the Resurrection and the life, he that believeth in Me shall never die". And He raised Lazarus to illustrate that those who believed in Him would be the firstfruits, raised up in Him that they shall never die (the second death). On these, the second death have no part (rev 20).

Likewise, when we study and learn the parable of Lazarus in Hell, then we can understand it's truth. Just like the other event of martha's brother Lazarus, and his Resurrection from the dead, we understand what can only be the First Resurrection in Christ. The scriptures tell of the Hell of eternal punishment, and it's awfulness. And Jesus illustrates how many will not receive it, even though one rose from the dead (The 1st Resurrection) to bring them this knowledge to them! And thus is that language in the parable of Lazarus in Hell.

Why would God speak of a place or state of everlasting fire to torment the souls of the unsaved, if the fire was only temporarily as (according to annihilationists) they'd soon be destroyed or made extinct? Why does God speak of the wicked as having two hands to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched if what He really means is that it shall be quenched or that they'll just be there temporarily? Why tell us the fire will never be quenched if this is the case? These ideas are tortuous to the very scriptures they're purporting to be a part of. Not only in Revelation where their worm (maggot) dieth not, but God shows the same picture all through out scripture.

Mark 9:43-46

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off, it is better for Thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched".

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is never quenched".

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
Curious language for a death in annihilation doctrine, wouldn't you say? This death is a picture of a forever living death where the worms (maggots) never cease to eat away at one in torment. The maggot dies not because the body of their abode is ever present. This fire is a ever lasting fire where the flames burn at one continually and the smoke of their torment continually goes up for ever and ever because likewise he never gets burned up. He keep burning that the smoke keeps going up. How much clearer does God have to say it. All rationalizations aside, it is apparent that Jesus Christ was very clear on the matter. We cannot attempt to redefine words and phrases in the Greek just to justify our beliefs.
continued next post:

Aseity

February 28th 2004, 03:19 AM

Matthew 25:46

"and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal".
Now there we have Jesus say it once again in very plain unambiguous language. And by the way, that Greek word there translated eternal [aionios], is the the exact same word there translated everlasting [aionios]. And so if these Theologians are going to wrest God's Word here to mean that in the Greek the punishment is really temporary, then they'll also have to open the huge can-o-worms and make it say there our life everlasting is temporary also. Because they're the exact same Greek word in the exact same application. As any faithful student of the Bible knows, inconsistency is the hallmark of error. But these are the problems which man gets into when He doesn't want to keep God's Word faithfully and wants to judge by what "seems" right in his own eyes. But to abandon counsel of God to believe whatever we think is good is the error of the ages.

Proverbs 12:15

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise".
What God's Word said is true and we should harken to it. The wicked are punished with everlasting Punishment, and the Believers are rewarded with everlasting Life with Christ. If one is on-going, then so is the other. Else we have confusion. It's so much simpler and God glorifying when we receive what is written, rather than try and amend it and make it say something else, under the guise of compassion, love or consideration. Which is nothing more than humanism, or as God calls it, doing what is right in our own eyes rather than harkening to His counsel.

The Bible is not silent on the punishment of Hell, nor of the horribleness of it. It's just that man in his arrogance doesn't really like what God has to say about it. Here are just a few of the scriptures which speak of the punishment of Hell. Read them and see if it honestly sounds like annihilation to you. On the contrary, it's vividly clear.

The Biblical Realities of the Judgment of Hell!

Matthew 5:22 "council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire".
Matthew 8:12 " Mt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".
Matthew 13:42 "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth".
Matthew 13:50 "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth".
Matthew 18:9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire".
Matthew 22:13 "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".
Matthew 23:14 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation".
Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?".
Matthew 25:30 "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".
Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:".
Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal".
Mark 3:29 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:".
Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:".
Mark 9:44 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
Mark 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:".
Mark 9:46 " Mr 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.".
Mark 9:47 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:".
Mark 9:48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
Mark 12:40 "Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation".
Luke 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him".
Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom".
Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame".
Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented".
Luke 16:28 "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment".
Luke 20:47 "Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation".
John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".
Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name".

In closing, let me say many Christians have told me, "if we never agree, so what? This isn't a matter of life or death (no pun intended)". But who says it's not? For when we minimize or emasculate Hell (which is the politically correct thing to do these days) we do an injustice to the Word of God. Indeed we are then not bringing the full counsel of God. And I do think it's very important, and indeed may be a matter of life and death. ..who knows? But we do know we are commanded (not suggested) to Keep the Word of God faithfully, as our fathers did, and the Church today is not doing that! It has fallen away from it's first love to modernism and humanism and political correctness. But he who sows the wind, shall indeed reap the world wind. If that's not important, then what is!

Peace,

Copyright ©1998 Tony Warren
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whoknew

February 28th 2004, 04:38 PM

Aseity, may I first say that it's somewhat annoying that you are arguing by presenting other people's papers. If you had read my first reply, you would see that I made arguments against almost everything Tony Warren said in your most recently posted paper. Now I guess since your original post was simply a copy and paste of someone else's paper, I should have expected the rest to be as well, but what happens is that you are not replying to any of my arguments, but simply rehashing your views.

You told me to read the person's paper over since you had apparently not seen the man's argument that Jesus went to hell, so I will quote him for your edification: "Such a prospect ought to cause conditionalists to re-examine their views, for the Bible teaches that Christ did suffer the pains of hell, but not as they are conceived by annihilationists." Maybe you are the one who should reread it.

The only thing which I do not feel knowledgable enough to discuss is the first and second death issue in Revelation 20; I will comment on this soon enough, when I'm finished with my current reading of a book on the exegesis of Revelation.

Despite assertions that annihilationists are inconsistent, I haven't yet found the inconsistency of my current view even after reading your pasted articles. My current view is that the wicked do receive judgement, that it is a fearful judgement no matter whether it's a physically painful destruction or a harsh denial at the hands of God, and that the symbols God uses to describe it indicate something much farther away from horrendous pain and closer to a great sense of loss and disdain and powerlessness to appease God.

Tony Warren's central point is Revelation 14, which I commented on in my first reply. Tony says that when God says forever and ever, he would be lying if it wasn't forever and ever; well you should tell Tony to look at Isaiah 34, and ask him whether Edom is still on fire and smoking and uninhabitable to this very day; he might have to change his mind on the nature of God's judgement terminology, especially since both passages use exactly the same terminology of smoke rising forever and ever. Is that just a big coincidence, or does it tell us something about their similar natures?

Also Tony's point hinges on the use of the word eternal for both punishment and for life; as I said earlier, death can be very eternal, and if Jesus meant the wicked were alive in punishment, then clearly they have eternal life too, which would be a contradiction since Jesus didn't say they both received eternal life. When God uses the word eternal in the bible, I have seen that he is using the idea of infinite time to convey the greatness and finality of his judgement, and he doesn't necessarily literally mean a never ending time period as I pointed out in Isaiah 34 and in Jude 7, so that yes, even those going to heaven may not be there for eternity. The fact that the righteous are receiving their "life" from God as a final reward is why it is called eternal, and the fact that the wicked are receiving their "punishment" from God as a final judgement is why it is called eternal.

mickiel

February 28th 2004, 11:22 PM

Aseity

February 29th 2004, 07:39 AM

Aseity, may I first say that it's somewhat annoying that you are arguing by presenting other people's papers.

Here I am.

Sorry for annoying you. I am going to annoy you some more.

You are wasting your time defending the doctrines of devils and demons: Annihilationism.

Annihilationism is a teaching from the pit by satan himself and he has you thoroughly hoodwinked. Such a shame, as you seem such a bright human being. Sinful though!

Repent or you shall perish and be cast into the lake of Fire for eternity, where the smoke of your torment will go up day and night for infinity for spreading such damnable heresies such as "annihilationism."

Is Annihilationism Biblical?

By Dr. Ron Rhodes
Author / Theologian

Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries -

Is Annihilationism Biblical?
By Ron Rhodes

The doctrine of annihilationism teaches that man was created immortal. But those who continue in sin and reject Christ are by a positive act of God deprived of the gift of immortality and are ultimately destroyed.

Another view, called "conditional immortality," argues that immortality is not a natural endowment of man, but is rather a gift of God in Christ only to those who believe. The person that does not accept Christ is ultimately annihilated and loses all consciousness. Some of the advocates of these doctrines teach a limited duration of conscious suffering for the wicked after death, after which time they are annihilated.

There are many passages that refute annihilationism. For illustration purposes, we will select only one primary passage - Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

By no stretch of the imagination can the punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear on this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness.

Bible scholar John Gerstner tells us that "one can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it."

How do we know that the punishment referred to in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. One is either annihilated or one is not. The Scriptures, by contrast, teach that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matthew 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Hebrews 10:29; Revelation 20:11-15; 22:12).

The very fact that people will suffer varying degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts.

Moreover, one cannot deny that for one who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing - not a punishment (cf. Luke 23:30-31; Revelation 9:6). Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define "eternal punishment" as an extinction of consciousness.

We must emphasize that torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Bible scholar Alan Gomes correctly points out that "a punishment [such as torment] that is not felt is not a punishment. It is an odd use of language to speak of an insensate (i.e., unfeeling), inanimate object receiving punishment. To say, 'I punished my car for not starting by slowly plucking out its sparkplug wires, one by one,' would evoke laughter, not serious consideration." We repeat, then, that punishment entails consciousness!

A critical point to make in regard to Matthew 25:46 is that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihilationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective aionion in this verse literally means "everlasting, without end." As noted earlier, this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in 1 Timothy 1:7, Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as our eternal God.

My friend, you are doing this:

Matthew 23
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Sorry for cutting and pasting this portion of Scripture from God's Holy WORD, The Bible, it does save a lot of time and typing. Hope you understand?

Aseity

February 29th 2004, 08:12 AM

Hell is the teeth in your bite. Its your gospel message, its your motivation, whats worse, its your view of God. You are the extreme of what christianity produces. You think hell is Gods incredible hulk to scare the sin out of people. You think Jesus was beaten to death so that men can be beaten for eternity. Christianity is full of extreme interepitation such as yours, and they are always extremely condemning. That is the self righteousness that Jesus spits out of his mouth. Its just distasteful. Pitiful and morbid. One cannot reason with the unreasonable. One cannot show grace to the mind of the ungraceful. You, and minds like yours would punish the vast majority of mankind throughout all eternity, and enjoy it. Whats worse, you think God thinks just like you.

There is no love in your message, because its none in your heart. There is no salvation in your writtings, because you really do not want mankind saved. There is no mercy in your posts because there is none inside of you. I feel for you and the christianity that produced you and is producing many many more like you. In my view, God hates this production of molested gospel.

>>>You, and minds like yours would punish the vast majority of mankind throughout all eternity, and enjoy it. Whats worse, you think God thinks just like you.<<<

Hello mickiel, how are you today, I hope you are having a blessed day of the LORD?

It will be God that punishes the vast majority of mankind throughout eternity, not me. Will you be one of those vast majority? I won't be, I can assure you of that. I will be in Heaven, with recollection of the wicked evil sinful no more. Praise God. All will be pure and holy, love, joy and peace for infinity. No death, no sickness no tears no aches or pains, just unimaginable glories forever more.

God will not enjoy in the death and punishment of the unrepentant wicked, within the confines of the Lake of Fire, He will enjoy and delight that *His* righteousness is maintained and perfect Justice is served on those who are deserving. We all deserve to be cast into the Lake of Fire, forever, including you and me.

What we do not deserve is God's wonderful grace and mercy alone. Have you received God's grace and mercy? If not, repent of your evil sinful wickedness, continually, until you die. A Christians life is a life of repenting always until the day we die.
http://www.modernreformation.org/mr99/marapr/mr9902ommrepenting.html

Mickiel, God does not think just like me, God thinks for Himself. God requires that we think for ourselves according to His desires! We are commanded to have the mind of our LORD Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Heaven & Eternal Rewards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The resurrection affirms the goodness of creation. Present creation is good yet corruptible and passing, the direct result of sin, but God, having dealt with sin in the cross of Jesus Christ, will also put an end to corruption. And the result will be to complete reaffirmation of the creation, including human bodies which God has created. In contrast to this gnosticism, the Hebrews correctly believed that matter, time and space are all God's creation which, from the beginning, were declared to be good (Gen 1-2) and to be accepted with thankgiving (1 Tim 4:4). We believe our spiritual glorified body will be physical. Since our bodies and all matter in their glorified state is God's good and original intent for mankind, we eagerly await, with out Old Covenant bretheren, the redemption of our bodies at the Resurrection and the restoration of God's original intent for His physical creation.

"For though we very truly hear that the kingdom of God will be filled with splendor, joy, happiness and glory, yet when these things are spoken of, they remain utterly remote from our perception, and as it were, wrapped in obscurities, until that day when he will reveal to us his glory, that we may behold it face to face."
JOHN CALVIN

Mickiel, here is something you may enjoy reading and studing helping to balance things out:
http://kedesh.christianitytoday.com/global/pf.cgi?/ct/2003/122/54.0.html

Luv ya

Aseity

Soli Deo Gloria(to God alone be the glory)

mickiel

February 29th 2004, 11:19 PM

Which means you believe in teaching and spreading Gods word to others. It is the rightly deviding of this word that I fail to see in evangelicals, as well as christians, muslims, Jehovahs Witnesses, Calvinist and so on. You are so on fire "for the Lord", you think God will burn mankind with this fire for all eternity, while keeping them alive and concious each passing moment of incredible pain. There is no loving way to spread this nonsense about God. But you are convinced that God will co-exist with sin and misery forever, instead of putting an end to it. Hell fire torture is sin and pain and utter misery. You are teaching that God has a mentality of co-existing with this perminent pain amphlifier, and that God will allow sin and misery perminent existance in reality. Pure insulting garbage reaped unpon the most loving being in existance. God will do no such thing.

It will be God that punishes the vast majority of mankind throughout eternity, not me. Will you be one of those vast majority? I won't be, I can assure you of that. I will be in Heaven, with recollection of the wicked evil sinful no more. Praise God. All will be pure and holy, love, joy and peace for infinity. No death, no sickness no tears no aches or pains, just unimaginable glories forever more.

God will not enjoy in the death and punishment of the unrepentant wicked, within the confines of the Lake of Fire, He will enjoy and delight that *His* righteousness is maintained and perfect Justice is served on those who are deserving.

We all deserve to be cast into the Lake of Fire, forever, including you and me.
How you can let this come out of your righteious mouth, is embarassing. If one man deserves eternal fire, then they all do. Or, all have sinned and fallen short of the right thinking of God. Because of the events that occured during Adams existance, all of mankind can be rightfully considered doomed. But because of the existance of Christ, that SAME ALL men are considered redeemed. Forgiven because of the events of Jesus time. We all deserve hell, but because of Jesus, we do not have to go. Salvation is free, but it is not cheap. Jesus blood is sufficent to save everyman alive and dead. Your gospel is no where near this great truth. You teach limited atonement because your view of God is seriously limited. You depend on the message of doom because you know not of a stronger message of hope. Such humans as yourself will soon be muted, and the gospel of the great merciful God will be preached in all the world, but only as a witness of things to come. After that, we all shall ever be with our Lord. Such is a gospel beyound yours and greater than your message of hell.

What we do not deserve is God's wonderful grace and mercy alone. Have you received God's grace and mercy? If not, repent of your evil sinful wickedness, continually, until you die. A Christians life is a life of repenting always until the day we die.
http://www.modernreformation.org/mr99/marapr/mr9902ommrepenting.html

Mickiel, God does not think just like me, God thinks for Himself. God requires that we think for ourselves according to His desires! We are commanded to have the mind of our LORD Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Heaven & Eternal Rewards
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The resurrection affirms the goodness of creation. Present creation is good yet corruptible and passing, the direct result of sin, but God, having dealt with sin in the cross of Jesus Christ, will also put an end to corruption. And the result will be to complete reaffirmation of the creation, including human bodies which God has created. In contrast to this gnosticism, the Hebrews correctly believed that matter, time and space are all God's creation which, from the beginning, were declared to be good (Gen 1-2) and to be accepted with thankgiving (1 Tim 4:4). We believe our spiritual glorified body will be physical. Since our bodies and all matter in their glorified state is God's good and original intent for mankind, we eagerly await, with out Old Covenant bretheren, the redemption of our bodies at the Resurrection and the restoration of God's original intent for His physical creation.

"For though we very truly hear that the kingdom of God will be filled with splendor, joy, happiness and glory, yet when these things are spoken of, they remain utterly remote from our perception, and as it were, wrapped in obscurities, until that day when he will reveal to us his glory, that we may behold it face to face."
JOHN CALVIN

Mickiel, here is something you may enjoy reading and studing helping to balance things out:
http://kedesh.christianitytoday.com/global/pf.cgi?/ct/2003/122/54.0.html

Luv ya

Aseity

Soli Deo Gloria(to God alone be the glory)[/QUOTE]

whoknew

March 4th 2004, 11:41 PM

Aseity, I saw a few points in your latest bad-news-for-the-wicked article which I'd like to reply to.
First:
"How do we know that the punishment referred to in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. One is either annihilated or one is not. The Scriptures, by contrast, teach that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matthew 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Hebrews 10:29; Revelation 20:11-15; 22:12)."

While varying degrees of punishment does rule out immediate extinction for every unsaved soul at judgement,varying degrees of punishment is compatible with people undergoing a certain penalty before their extinction.

Next:
"Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear on this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness."

I guess he hasn't heard of the death penalty.

And finally:
"There is no way that annihilationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective aionion in this verse literally means "everlasting, without end." As noted earlier, this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in 1 Timothy 1:7, Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as our eternal God."

Actually, the physical punishment of the wicked could never be as eternal as the eternal God, because it has a beginning and God does not. However, the punishment could be eternal in the sense that God always knew this would happen, that the eternal punishemnt really started before you were born, but only in God's mind. I stand by my decision to call any punishment eternal in which God forever holds to his verdict, whether or not the actual torment continues.

I think that I've succeeded in showing that the Bible does leave room for wonder as to what really happens on judgement day, although I still have not covered the first and second death issue. However, I've been reading the Fourth Book of the Maccabees in the Apocrypha and I've noticed that it does not leave any room for doubt as far as afterlife punishment. First of all, the word "destroyed" is used to refer to torture, although it does have an end in the story, but the people explicitly say that the phsical torture in the afterlife will never end, that the person's pain will never cease. Jesus or someone else in the Bible could have used the terminology they used, and then we would not be having this debate, since I would wholeheartedly agree that there is neverending torment in store for the wicked.

Although I think that annihilationism is the most consistent objective interpretation of the Bible, I do admit that I would greatly prefer to be annihilated rather than tortured when I leave this life. If people knew they would be tortured forever if they didn't do the "God" thing, everyone would be doing the "God" thing, the sheep and the goats. But God doesn't give us this absolute knowledge, instead preferring people that choose to believe him and his rules--this is how he finds his sheep, for they obey him naturally; the rest of us goats would need to be forced to obey him, because we're too selfish to feel incomplete, to feel the void that leads one searching for God, so we go on ignoring moral values as we are absorbed in our physical senses, or we're just selfish enough that we fill that void with one of those sexier New Age gods, or we enjoy our sins so much that we won't give the Bible the benefit of the doubt as to whether its true Revelation from God even though it seems likely, or... I think I need to start another thread about why people don't follow Jesus.

strider

March 27th 2004, 08:44 PM

Chief of Staff Lizard

March 28th 2004, 09:51 PM

trueseeker

March 29th 2004, 12:09 AM

First of all, I'm a newbie and this is my first post here. Hi!

Some observations about the topic. My understanding is that the word 'punishment' in medieval times always meant death by execution. Prison was not for punishment, back then the accused only langushed in prison awaiting trial or sentence or other legal process. I believe it was also so in Jesus' time, as the account in Acts of Paul's appeal to Caesar, supplemented by Roman history (regarding his ultimate judgment and sentence) amply demonstrates.

Today we use prison for inflicting punishment, as modern culture regards a deprivation of liberty as a deterrent or punitive measure. But such did not exist to my knowledge before modern times, since individual liberty as we know it did not then exist. All people were seen as chattels of the state, mere property to be disposed of at will by the sovereign.

I do not know if God intends to observe this standard. But note that this was the prevailing standard when Jesus taught, and when John wrote the Revelation, as well as when Moses transmitted the Law looking back on the Egyptian afflictions.

Personally, I suspect there will be some variation in punishments, as the Judge, His Most High Honour, will render to every man according to what he has done.

We know that the rich man of Lazurus' fame was in torments; but this was before the final judgment. We also know that Jesus Himself said three times in Matthew that various offenders would be cast into the outer darkness, and in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Is this also before the final judgment?

In verses which tell of the final judgment, Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, John 5:28 etc. all speak of eternal torment for the resurrected damned, and everlasting disgrace and contempt, and not a humane crispy critter judgment spoken of by the annihilationists.

I prefer to defer to the Scripture in these matters, rather than leaning on my own understanding. In this vein, it is important not to impose our own humanist values upon God when interpreting Scripture. Today's churches preach a God of love. But they do not realize that there can be no Love without Justice, and no Justice without damnation of the wicked. Certainly, Jesus asked us to have compassion for our enemies, but that was only so we wouldn't sin and interfere with God's administration of Holy Justice. But as God does not sin, He has placed Himself under no such constraint, save for our sakes. So we must not impose similar constraints upon Him.

Do the wicked all suffer the exact same fate? Perhaps some will go to eternal torment, perhaps some to annihilation. I know not.

But I do know that the destiny of the wicked is not in our hands. It is for us to trust that God's judgment is true, and His punishment just. For if we do not, we judge God, and imperil our souls.

Regards,
Strider

Welcome to TWeb Strider!

For 40 plus years I just accepted the eternal hell doctrine, because that is what I was taught, and I didn't consider the issue too much. I felt basically the same way as you do, God's punishment will be just and correct, so I wasn't too worried about it. A half dozen years ago, I got a urge (I think it was the Lord Who put it in my heart) to study the scriptures for myself regarding the punishment of the lost. After doing so, I came to the perspective that God will assign just, fair, righteous punishment in hell to the lost according to their deeds, then they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and perish. Eventually hell itself will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed. It can be difficult to see at first, because we have been so programmed to interpret the verses the way we were originally taught.

Although this is not a big issue to those of us who have faith in God's judgments to be just, it is a big issue to those who are not believers. They see this doctrine of a no mercy, one judgement for all that is eternal punishment in hell, as a contridiction between the character traits we tell them our God has, and what we tell them Jesus came to do. When I was studying the issue, I didn't even take this into consideration, I was just interested in what the Bible says will happen. After concluding the Bible does teach eventual annihilation, I also see how it matches up with His character traits, and why it is a stumbling block to unbelievers. So it is a fairly important issue to many people. If you are interested, I would be happy to walk you through, some of the scriptures which changed my perspective on the issue.

Dr. Jack Bauer

March 29th 2004, 06:09 AM

Aseity, I have fully rebutted Robert Peterson, whom who cite. All i can see in your posts is copy and paste from other people's work.

The doctrine of eternal torment is unbiblical, and any attempt to enshrine it in Christian theology again bears all the marks of very VERY poor biblical interpetation. Why did you start this thread - to simply quote from other people?

strider

March 29th 2004, 04:37 PM

Welcome to TWeb Strider. Cool User Name :thumb:

What ho! Faramir. Hail and well met! Sorry about your brother; I guess Samwise and Frodo filled you in on the gory details...

Frivolous regards,
Strider

strider

March 29th 2004, 05:24 PM

Welcome to TWeb Strider!

For 40 plus years I just accepted the eternal hell doctrine, because that is what I was taught, and I didn't consider the issue too much. I felt basically the same way as you do, God's punishment will be just and correct, so I wasn't too worried about it. A half dozen years ago, I got a urge (I think it was the Lord Who put it in my heart) to study the scriptures for myself regarding the punishment of the lost. After doing so, I came to the perspective that God will assign just, fair, righteous punishment in hell to the lost according to their deeds, then they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and perish. Eventually hell itself will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed. It can be difficult to see at first, because we have been so programmed to interpret the verses the way we were originally taught.

Although this is not a big issue to those of us who have faith in God's judgments to be just, it is a big issue to those who are not believers. They see this doctrine of a no mercy, one judgement for all that is eternal punishment in hell, as a contridiction between the character traits we tell them our God has, and what we tell them Jesus came to do. When I was studying the issue, I didn't even take this into consideration, I was just interested in what the Bible says will happen. After concluding the Bible does teach eventual annihilation, I also see how it matches up with His character traits, and why it is a stumbling block to unbelievers. So it is a fairly important issue to many people. If you are interested, I would be happy to walk you through, some of the scriptures which changed my perspective on the issue.

Please proceed, trueseeker! I am indeed open to this idea. Also I would be interested in your view of the millenium (that is my current area of interest), whether it precedes or follows the 2nd advent, as the second death of which you speak ties in with this.

A couple of things: I find that the word 'thousand' is 'myriad' in the greek, which would indicate an indeterminate number of years, and seems to be an idiomatic/colloquial use consistent with the modern 'thousand points of light' or 'the night has a thousand saxophones'. Thus the word 'millenium' is kind of a misnomer.

Also 'hell' as used in Rev 20:14 is Hades, the abode of the dead before judgment.

My preconception (which you have probably guessed): I have no doubt that eternal torment is a stumbling block to unbelievers, just as Christ was a stumbling block to Pharisees bent on a political restoration of Israel. It hardened their hearts. But Christ's work, in my view, is about winnowing: telling the hard truth, and observing how the heart reacts to it, creating an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to convict of sin.

More I could say, but right now I want to hear your exegesis.

Regards,
Strider

PS. I study in both KJV and NASB, if you're interested.

trueseeker

March 29th 2004, 07:43 PM

Please proceed, trueseeker! I am indeed open to this idea. Also I would be interested in your view of the millenium (that is my current area of interest), whether it precedes or follows the 2nd advent, as the second death of which you speak ties in with this.

A couple of things: I find that the word 'thousand' is 'myriad' in the greek, which would indicate an indeterminate number of years, and seems to be an idiomatic/colloquial use consistent with the modern 'thousand points of light' or 'the night has a thousand saxophones'. Thus the word 'millenium' is kind of a misnomer.

Also 'hell' as used in Rev 20:14 is Hades, the abode of the dead before judgment.

My preconception (which you have probably guessed): I have no doubt that eternal torment is a stumbling block to unbelievers, just as Christ was a stumbling block to Pharisees bent on a political restoration of Israel. It hardened their hearts. But Christ's work, in my view, is about winnowing: telling the hard truth, and observing how the heart reacts to it, creating an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to convict of sin.

More I could say, but right now I want to hear your exegesis.

Regards,
Strider

PS. I study in both KJV and NASB, if you're interested.

Strider,

I don't want to over whelm you in one post with all the NT passages. So I will start with just a general overview. I was studying Rev chapter 20 which was talking about the first and second resurrection and first and second death which got me pondering these two concepts.

Regarding the millenium I am still of the mind to think it is between Jesus 2nd coming at the end of the tribulation and judgement day. However, my opinion of the first resurrection (commonly referred to as the rapture) has changed. Presently I think as Jesus returns, only those who were martyred during the tribulation, and those who survived the tribulation without worshiping the beast or taking his mark will be resurrected, they will meet Him in the air and return with Him. These elect few will rule with Jesus for the millenium. Rev 20:4-6 & Mat 24:29-31
Then the second resurrection will be for everyone else, Jews, believers and unbelievers on judgement day.

Back to what happens to the lost. Rev 20 describes it as the second death. Which led me to a half dozen places referring to those who are perishing. Then I reviewed a couple dozen places which refer to the saved receiving eternal life (with the implication that the unsaved don't receive it). Which led me to verses about the tree of life, which we were banded from getting to lest we become immortal. Then I began to read all the other verses which I had interpreted to mean a eternal hell, and I came to a conclusion that there are two different places being referred to, Hell and the Lake of Fire. Many of the verses refer to the Lake of Fire burning forever, but they don't actually say people are tormented in it forever. In fact the only ones referred to as being tormented in the Lake of Fire forever is the Anti-christ, False prophet and Satan.

Of course, we also have all the verses about punishment. Justice is Mine, I will repay says the Lord. The judgement will be merciless to those who show no mercy. There are lots of them. But I began to see that for God to give proper judgements to fit the crimes, they all have to be different. A teenage kid who was oblivious to anything but trying to have fun, won't receive the same measure of punishment as Hitler and Stalin. How can any type of eternal punishment fit a finite crime? Consider how miserable some people are during this short life, an eternity of even that level of misery is horrifying. I think when God assigns judgement, there will be no one who can object, because they will be completely just and fair. The wicked will receive the exact measure of misery, to what they caused others. There will also be lightened sentences for those who showed mercy, etc. How can you have a lightened eternal sentence?

Also consider, what it means for those of us who are saved. How joyful will the eternal kingdom God has prepared for us be if our loved ones are in eternal torment? However, if we know that they will only have to receive just recompense according to their deeds, and then they will be put to eternal rest, we can have peace.

Finally like Mt. Doom, the lost will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to be unmade, like the one ring. Eventually, Hell itself will be thrown in and be destroyed as well.

trueseeker

March 30th 2004, 07:25 PM

Strider,

Here are some of the verses.

There are actually at least 43 NT verses which imply eternal life only for believers.
Mt 19:29,25:46; Mk 10:17,30; Lk 10:25,18:18,30; Jn 3:15,16,36; 4:14,36; 5:24,39; 6:27,40,47,54,68; 10:28; 12:25,50; 17:2,3: Acts 13:46,48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:21,22,23; Ga 6:8; 1Tm 1:16; 6:12; Titus 1:2; 3:7; 1Jn 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11,13; 5:20; Jude 1:21

7 verses which refer to the lost as those who are perishing.
Jn 3:16; 10:28; 2Th 2:10; 2Pe 3:9; 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3

4 places in Revelations the second death is referred to. Two of the four places define the second death as the Lake of Fire.
Rev 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8

There are a couple dozen verses along the lines of: the wages of sin is death; sin when it is accomplished it brings forth death; we know we have passed out of death, into life, because we love the brethren.; he was does not love abides in death; the love of the world produces death; etc.

James 5:20 'Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death...'

Philippians 3:18-19 '...they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction,...'

2 Peter 2:10-12 referring to false prophets and teachers '...they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, ...reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed.'

Revelations 20:14-15 '...This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.'

Personally, I think the confusion comes from the fact that there are two seperate places, hell, and the lake of fire. Hell will be used for judgement and to punish the wicked according to their deeds. Then they will be cast into the lake of fire which will consume them. One way you can tell they are two distinct places is Rev 20:14 'And death and hades (hell) were thrown into the lake of fire.'

Ted

March 31st 2004, 02:38 PM

It is interesting to lurk about and see what others are discussing. And this thread is interesting. But it is also somewhat disappointing, since most of what I see are the same arguments. Perhaps I can stir the pot a bit.

Rev 14:11 – “their smoke arises forever and ever”
Has anybody even bothered to notice the subject of this statement? It’s not fire. And the argument in this thread is about fire (i.e. Hell!). This statement doesn’t say anything about how long the fire is burning. It is talking about the column of smoke. Allow me to make a parallel to illustrate.

If I release a helium balloon outside, it will rise out of sight. I can, figuratively, say that “it rises forever and ever.” I’m not releasing balloons forever and ever, I only released one. It rose “forever and ever.” In the same way, we can say that Rev 14:11 is merely saying that the smoke is rising out of sight. And we would be perfectly in line with Hebrew thought.

The Hebrews were not involved in advanced mathematical concepts. Anything beyond basic math for commerce is significantly missing in ancient Hebrew writing. The Greek philosophers touched on the concept of the infinite, but as a detailed mathematical construct, it is not generally seen until the Renaissance. Thus, instead of saying that the column of smoke was infinitely high, they said “it rose forever and ever.” And it’s the smoke, not the fire.

BTW, Rev 14:11 is not even talking about Hell. Without going into the long discussion about the structure of Revelation, I will merely refer you to http://www.bibleonly.org/proph/rev/macro.html for the details. (My web site.)

Their worm does not die:
Let’s lay this one to rest. The image in this metaphor is the garbage dump in the Hinnom valley outside Jerusalem (the origin of “Gehenna”). There were piles of rotting trash, including waste bits of animal flesh. Maggots lived in the trash and fed on the dead flesh. Of particular note is the fact that maggots do not eat living flesh. They only eat dead tissue. This is how maggots can be used to clean up festering wounds (not current good medicine, but effective). Thus, contrary to one assertion, this statement is not presenting an image of conscious torment. It is, instead, presenting a view of the wicked as being physically dead and rotting. This brings to view the source passage in Isaiah 66:22-24. There the saints look on “corpses,” not living people in torment.

Ted

Ted

March 31st 2004, 02:45 PM

Lest I be left out of the copy-and-paste set, the following is the appendix of my book, I Want to be Left Behind. I believe it casts a bit of light on our subject. It was presented at the Evangelical Theological Society meeting in Nashville in 2001, and got a very good reception. (It was written by my editor, Ed Christian, PhD.)

Evangelicals have long prided themselves on basing their beliefs on Scripture alone. In fact, however, we may argue sola scriptura when disproving the unbiblical beliefs of other denominations, yet when it comes to our own dearly held views, we are not above ignoring biblical evidence that contradicts us. Should Evangelicals ever argue from tradition rather than Scripture, though? Should Evangelicals base their teachings on ambiguous texts viewed by the light of traditional understandings, while ignoring clear texts that point to the opposite conclusion? Who among us would say yes?

It seems to me that like Humpty Dumpty, those arguing for the eternal torment of the wicked often assign arbitrary and contradictory meanings to words already perfectly clear in English, Hebrew, and Greek—words like “de-stroy,” “consume,” “dead,” and “devoured.” It is true that these words, as used in Scripture, may refer to several areas of experience, and it is also true that they are often used metaphorically. However, when metaphors are used, they always allude to the established meanings of words, not to their opposites.

What follows is not a formal paper, but a collection of texts with a few words of commentary. My hope is that they will spark thought, discussion, and study.

What Does “Eternal” Mean?
Eternal Judgment (krímatos aiōníou): Heb 6:2 “of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” [The period of judging or judgment is limited in dura-tion, but the verdict will never be reversed, so the judgment is eternal.]

Eternal Redemption (aiōnían lútrōsin): Heb 9:12 “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all having obtained eternal redemption.” [Jesus re-deemed us “once for all,” but the effect of that redemption is eternal.]

Eternal Salvation (sōtērias aiōníou): Heb 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.” [Jesus saved us by a “once for all” act, called salvation, but the effect of that salvation is eternal.]

Eternal Sin (aiōníou hamartēmatos): Mark 3:29 “but He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” [The sin occurs during a finite lifetime, but its effect is eternal.]

Eternal Destruction (ólethron aiōníon): 2 Thes 1:9 “These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” [Destroyed once, but the effect of that de-struction is eternal.]

Eternal Punishment (kólasin aiōníon / zōèn aiōníon): Matt 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.” [Resurrection to life happens “in a twinkling of an eye,” but the effect is eternal. Execution is an event completed only by death, and it has not occurred unless death results, but it is an eternal punishment because it is irreversible.]

Eternal Fire (puròs aiōníou): Jude 7 “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given them-selves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example [deigma, a specimen], suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” [The clear statement here is that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by “eternal fire,” yet that fire is not still burning. The effect of the fire is permanent, but the fire burned until the fuel was consumed, then went out. Genesis 19:24–29 tells us the cities were “destroyed,” and 2 Pet 2:6 tells us they were turned to “ashes.” We may think we know what Jesus means by “eternal fire” in Matt 18:8 and 25:41, but the Bible provides its own answer.]

What Do the “Worms and Unquenchable Fire” Verses Mean?
Mark 9:44, 46, 48 “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Jesus is quoting Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses [peger; corpse/carcass] of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” [The correct understanding of Jesus’ meaning must take into account the following points: 1) One is not a corpse until one is dead; 2) Maggots eat only dead flesh, but fire kills maggots; 3) Thus, this is a mixed metaphor, and literal fulfillment is impossible; 4) But, the metaphors point to an irreversible process of destruction following death.]

Ezek 20:47–48 “And say to the forest of the South, ‘Hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be scorched by it. All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.”’” [This metaphorical language refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah, using the image of “unquenchable fire” not to suggest an eternal process, but a process unstoppable until its end is reached.]

What Does It Mean to “Die”?
Gen. 7:21–23 And all flesh died [apéthane] that moved on the earth: . . .”
John 11:26 “‘And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [apothánē]. Do you believe this?’” [Logically, thus, those who do not believe will die at some time, becoming like those who died in the Flood. If they die, they are dead, and if they are dead, they are not alive, and if they are not alive, they cannot experience eternal torment. Death does not mean life.]

What Does “Devoured” Mean?
2 Kings 1:12 “And fire of God came down from heaven and con-sumed [wattō)kal /katéphagen] him and his fifty.”

Rev 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured [katéphagen] them.”

**Note: The Greek of the two passages is identical in the key section.

[If in Elijah’s day God literally kills the wicked with fire from heaven, and if John then quotes this phrase exactly to indicate what he has seen in vision about the fate of the wicked, how can we say they will not be devoured to death?]

Isa 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured [édetai, eaten] the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.”

Isa 26:11 “. . . Yes, the fire of Your enemies [hupenantíous] shall devour [édetai, eat] them.”

Heb 10:27 “. . . but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour [esthíein, eat up]the adversaries [hupenantíous].” [What has been devoured or eaten up exists no longer. What has been devoured by fire can no longer be alive. Esthiō and edō usually refer to eating food, and they are often used metaphorically, but they are not metaphors of something never eaten but remaining eternally un-eaten, though eternally chewed.]

What Does “Perish” or “Destroyed” Mean?
Matt 22:7 “‘But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed [apōlesen] those murderers, and burned up their city.’” [Jesus is not revealing that the murderers were tortured forever, but that they were killed. This is the primary meaning of the word.]

Matt 26:52 “But Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish [apolountai] by the sword.’” [“Perish” here means death, not some never-ending flaying with a sword throughout eternity.]

Luke 11:51 “‘from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished [apoloménou] between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.’” [Was Zechariah still perishing in Jesus’ day, or had he completed the process implied by the word and perished, as the text says?]

Luke 13:3, 5 “‘I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish [apoleísthe].’” [If the process of perishing cannot be completed, then Jesus is wrong about this.]

John 3:16 “‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish [apólētai] but have everlasting life.’” [If those who believe do not perish, then those who do not believe logically must perish. But if the wicked suffer everlasting tor-ment in Hell, then they don’t perish, and they also receive everlasting life. Thus, both the righteous and the wicked receive everlasting life—the difference is only in the nature of that life. If this were so, then Jesus would be wrong here.]

2 Pet 3:6 “by which the world that then existed perished [apōleto], being flooded with water.” [That world died, along with the people in it, except for Noah and family.]

2 Pet 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish [apolésthai] but that all should come to repentance.” [Those do not repent perish. If they cannot die, they cannot perish.]

Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death [thanatos], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” [The wages are not eternal suffering, but death. If we are not Humpty Dumpty, then death means death, not life.]

Luke 17:29 “‘but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [apōlesen] them all.’”

Matt 10:29 “‘And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy [apolésai] both soul and body in hell.’” [If they live on in eternal torment, they have not been destroyed.]

How Long Does “Stubble” Burn?
Exod 15:7 [Against Egypt] “‘You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.’”

Obadiah 16, 18 [Against Edom] “‘And they shall be as though they had never been. . . . The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame; but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they [Jacob and Joseph] shall kindle them and devour them, and no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,’ for the LORD has spoken.” [This is metaphorical, but it points to a process leading to swift and certain death. It points not to a never-ending process, but to a process that will reach a completion.]

Isa 47:14 [Against Babylon] “‘Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them.’” [Experience shows us that stubble does not burn forever, but once burned, it cannot be restored, so the effect is permanent. The usage here is metaphorical.]

Nahum 1:9–10 [Day of the Lord] “Affliction will not rise up a second time. For while tangled like thorns, and while drunken like drunkards, they shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.” [Whether metaphorical or literal, the fire burns quickly. Note that the Old Testament prophets do not distinguish, in their “Day of the Lord” language, between the death of the wicked at Christ’s coming, as seen in Revelation, and the punishment of the wicked in Rev 20. They know only the latter, and they see the burning as swift, with the effect permanent.]

What Are “Ashes”?
Mal 4:1, 3 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. . . . You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ Says the LORD of hosts.” [If the wicked burn in eternal conscious torment for all time, they cannot be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous at any time, much less “on the day” their burning begins. Even if the language is metaphorical, the metaphor points to death, not to eternal life apart from God.]

Ezek. 28:18–19 “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteous-ness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever.’” [Some think this is speaking covertly of Satan. Whoever it may be speaking of, to “cease to be forever” cannot mean to be forever, even metaphorically. One cannot be “ashes” until one has “ceased to be.” Ashes, formed during combustion, are what is left after something has been burned up.]

What Does “Slay” Mean?
Isa 65:15 [Day of the Lord] “‘For the Lord GOD will slay you.’”

Isa 66:15–16 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.’”

Isa 66:24 “‘And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.’” [One is not slain until one is no longer alive. If the wicked have been slain by the fire of God, they cannot still be alive. They are corpses. To say that “slain” here does not really mean “slain” but “not slain” is again to imitate Humpty Dumpty.]

What Does “End” Mean?
Zeph 1:18 [Day of the Lord] “‘Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance [NIV, “a sudden end”] of all those who dwell in the land.’”

Matt 13:40 “‘As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.’” [There can be no “sudden end” of people who suffer eternal conscious torment for all eternity. Either the doctrine is wrong, or the Bible is wrong.]

Any fair discussion of the fate of the wicked should include these verses. Base beliefs on the entire biblical witness, not a few proof texts. Establish the meaning of seemingly clear words by seeing how they are used elsewhere in Scripture. Do not twist the meanings of words so they fit beliefs. Let what is clear explain what is ambiguous. These are basic rules of sound interpretation, but they have been ignored too often in discussions of this topic.

trueseeker

March 31st 2004, 06:53 PM

Ted,

I think you make some excellent points. But I do think you are leaving out some verses, as well.

Justice is mine, I will repay says the Lord.

As a man sows so shall he reap.

Judgement will be merciless to the one who shows no mercy.

Everyone will be judged according to their deeds.

etc.

I do agree with you that destruction is where the lost eventually end up, but I also think evil doers will receive just punishment for their crimes toward others and God, first.

kofh2u

April 1st 2004, 02:02 AM