Are Christians actually Jews?

[salvationfound]

Hey everyone,

I hope this topic is in the right forum.

With the whole controversy of Gibson's movie it made me remember a question I've had that would change the whole idea of Christians being anti-semetic.

By what I have read in the Bible Christianity seems to be nothing more than the fulfillment of Old Testament. (ex. the coming messiah, the new covenant, laws on their hearts instead of tablets, light to the gentiles [this comes mainly from Jeremiah]). So are gentile Christians really nothing more than uncircumcised Jews? Unfortunately it would be kind of hard to go to a Jewish person who doesn't believe in Jesus and say, "Hey there I'm a Jew as well." But would everyone here agree that a true Christian is not only not anti-semetic but also a uncircumcised Jew as well?

thanks for your time

[Jezz]

Good topic, salvationfound. But I think that it is probably better suited to the Comparative Religions forum. I will move it there.

In answer to your actual question, I think the short answer is "yes". Christians worship a Jewish God, and a Jewish Saviour, and their holy book was written entirely by Jews (with one or two possible exceptions), and the apostles were all Jewish. The early Christians still thought of themselves as Jews, as did the early Gentiles. Christianity is extremely Jewish at its core. In fact, I've often thought of changing my byline to "Third Temple Jew" to describe myself. Of course Jesus is the third temple.

Unfortunately this fundamental Jewishness has to a large extent been lost in Western Christianity, I think. Eastern Christianity has done a much better job at preserving it.

One also needs to distinguish between racial/ethnic Jewishness and religious Jewishness (Judaism), I think. It is possible to have one without the other.

[dizzle]

Salvationfound -Yes all who are in Christ, regardless of ethnic heritage, are the Israel of God. The Church is Israel today, and its membership is open to all who believe.

[John Reece]

Salvationfound -Yes, all who are in Christ, regardless of ethnic heritage, are the Israel of God. The Church is Israel today, and its membership is open to all who believe.

:yes:

[Jude3b]

Hey everyone,

I hope this topic is in the right forum.

With the whole controversy of Gibson's movie it made me remember a question I've had that would change the whole idea of Christians being anti-semetic.

By what I have read in the Bible Christianity seems to be nothing more than the fulfillment of Old Testament. (ex. the coming messiah, the new covenant, laws on their hearts instead of tablets, light to the gentiles [this comes mainly from Jeremiah]). So are gentile Christians really nothing more than uncircumcised Jews? Unfortunately it would be kind of hard to go to a Jewish person who doesn't believe in Jesus and say, "Hey there I'm a Jew as well." But would everyone here agree that a true Christian is not only not anti-semetic but also a uncircumcised Jew as well?

thanks for your time

Paul declares in Romans 10:12,13, "For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Today every saved persons, whatever their religious background (Roman Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Mormon, etc.) is a spiritual Jew and as such a member of the church of God - which is the body of Christ - which is the Israel of God.

The way that the apostolic church used the word ekklesia prooves that the church of God - the body of Christ is the true spiritual Israel of God. The church only is God's Israel and there is no other.

[salvationfound]

Thanks for the responses now Jews think of themselves as descendents of Abraham.

So should I consider myself a descendent of Abraham? Or is that still simply for the certain people in the world who are ACTUALLY descendents.

[Jawa Man]

Therefore it is of faith that it may be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those of the law, but also to those of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (just as it is written, "I have appointed you a father of many nations") before God, whom he believed, the One who gives life to the dead and calls those things which are not as though they were; who, contrary to hope, on hope believed, so that he should become a father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."
(Rom 4:16-18)

And I am ethnically Jewish from my dad's side *beams with pride*. The ironic thing is, though my dad has 6 kids, I, the Christian, am the only one continuing the Jewish traditions I was taught. The other ones are atheists.

[Jude3b]

Therefore it is of faith that it may be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those of the law, but also to those of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (just as it is written, "I have appointed you a father of many nations") before God, whom he believed, the One who gives life to the dead and calls those things which are not as though they were; who, contrary to hope, on hope believed, so that he should become a father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."
(Rom 4:16-18)

And I am ethnically Jewish from my dad's side *beams with pride*. The ironic thing is, though my dad has 6 kids, I, the Christian, am the only one continuing the Jewish traditions I was taught. The other ones are atheists.

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seen, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:29)

[Heathen Dawn]

If Christians are Jews, what word can be used to describe ethnical/Mosaic-law Jews?

[themuzicman]

Hey everyone,

I hope this topic is in the right forum.

With the whole controversy of Gibson's movie it made me remember a question I've had that would change the whole idea of Christians being anti-semetic.

By what I have read in the Bible Christianity seems to be nothing more than the fulfillment of Old Testament. (ex. the coming messiah, the new covenant, laws on their hearts instead of tablets, light to the gentiles [this comes mainly from Jeremiah]). So are gentile Christians really nothing more than uncircumcised Jews? Unfortunately it would be kind of hard to go to a Jewish person who doesn't believe in Jesus and say, "Hey there I'm a Jew as well." But would everyone here agree that a true Christian is not only not anti-semetic but also a uncircumcised Jew as well?

thanks for your time

IMHO, I believe you have that backwards. Jews should have come into the New Covenant, which was brought about by the fulfillment and completion of the Old Covenant by Christ.

We are all descendents of Abraham, and Christians specifically spiritual descendents, but we are NOT descendents of Israel (or Judah), physical, spiritual, or otherwise.

Michael

[Otto]

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:23-24

I think Paul is saying that Christians are spiritually Jewish. Read Romans 11:11-24 for the whole olive tree parable.

[Jude3b]

IMHO, I believe you have that backwards. Jews should have come into the New Covenant, which was brought about by the fulfillment and completion of the Old Covenant by Christ.

We are all descendents of Abraham, and Christians specifically spiritual descendents, but we are NOT descendents of Israel (or Judah), physical, spiritual, or otherwise.

Michael

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3: 28-29)

[Sacrificial Ram]

Hey everyone,

I hope this topic is in the right forum.

With the whole controversy of Gibson's movie it made me remember a question I've had that would change the whole idea of Christians being anti-semetic.

By what I have read in the Bible Christianity seems to be nothing more than the fulfillment of Old Testament. (ex. the coming messiah, the new covenant, laws on their hearts instead of tablets, light to the gentiles [this comes mainly from Jeremiah]). So are gentile Christians really nothing more than uncircumcised Jews? Unfortunately it would be kind of hard to go to a Jewish person who doesn't believe in Jesus and say, "Hey there I'm a Jew as well." But would everyone here agree that a true Christian is not only not anti-semetic but also a uncircumcised Jew as well?

thanks for your time
No, they aren't. There are a lot of added concepts that were added by the pagan converts to Christianity. Little things such as origianal sin, and a man who is also not only literally a 'son of god', but god himself. That is
very much against the essense of the Jewish religion.

[Sacrificial Ram]

IMHO, I believe you have that backwards. Jews should have come into the New Covenant, which was brought about by the fulfillment and completion of the Old Covenant by Christ.

We are all descendents of Abraham, and Christians specifically spiritual descendents, but we are NOT descendents of Israel (or Judah), physical, spiritual, or otherwise.

Michael
One part you are missing is the 'fullfillment' is not 'replacement'. According to the tankah, the convent with god is eternal. So, accordign to the Jewish religion, there is no 'new convent'.. and the convent that God made with the Jewish people stands.

[Anitra]

I certainly agree that a Christian should oppose anti-semitism, along with all other ethnocentricity and bigotry. We are all directly subject to one God. We are all equally loved, equally treasured, equal in value one to the other. The best interests and purposes of us all are equally important. We all have full and equal rights.

There are differences in belief between Jew and Jew, Jew and Christian, Christian and Christian. No difference of opinion between us justifies abuse. But to not acknowledge differences is just as disrespectful to a person as is acting as if those differences make him/her less than we are.

There are Christians who adamantly insist that I am not a Christian, because I do not accord with their doctrine. Heck, there are atheists who adamantly insist that I am not a Christian because I do not accord with what they understand Christian doctrine to be. :teeth: My reply is that I acknowledge that I am not what they consider a Christian to be, and therefore I can certainly understand it if they do not want to call me Christian. I am, however, what I consider a Christian to be, therefore I am going to continue to call myself a Christian.

By extension, I would say that Jews will have to live with Christians who consider themselves Jews calling themselves Jews. However, the Christians will also have to live with the Jews not agreeing that they are Jews.

Most Jews have a completely different understanding of the Bible than most Christians do. I see no value in pretending otherwise.

[Jude3b]

Hey everyone,

I hope this topic is in the right forum.

With the whole controversy of Gibson's movie it made me remember a question I've had that would change the whole idea of Christians being anti-semetic.

By what I have read in the Bible Christianity seems to be nothing more than the fulfillment of Old Testament. (ex. the coming messiah, the new covenant, laws on their hearts instead of tablets, light to the gentiles [this comes mainly from Jeremiah]). So are gentile Christians really nothing more than uncircumcised Jews? Unfortunately it would be kind of hard to go to a Jewish person who doesn't believe in Jesus and say, "Hey there I'm a Jew as well." But would everyone here agree that a true Christian is not only not anti-semetic but also a uncircumcised Jew as well?

thanks for your time

There are two kinds of Jews:
(1) Jews who are only natural descendants of Abraham, and
(2) Jews in the Spirit who believe in Jesus Christ. Paul wrote, "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest on the law, and makest thy boast of God. ...For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ...For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:17,25,26,28,29).

Did you catch that? Someone who is "called a Jew" because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, "is not a Jew." His "circumcision is made uncircumcision." Thus to God, he is a Gentile.

And a beliving Gentile, who through faith keeps "the righteousness of the law," his uncircumcision is counted for circumcision. Thus to God, he is a Jew. John the Baptist also taught this (see Matthew 3:8,9). Jesus taught this (John 8:39,44). Paul taught this (Gal. 3:7, Phil. 3:3). And Peter taught this (Acts 10:34,35).

So yes, true Christians are true Jews.

Only true Jews (true Christians) will be saved.

[larrye2001]

YES,Christians is a man made word, not from G_D, only Jews are G_D's people!
Proof:
man named Christians ,Christians, Not G_D.
Scripture calls Christians gentiles)ie... build the 3rd temple with out a court for the gentiles because anyone who can not enter the temple grounds is a gentile(only Jews can enter the temple walls)
John4:22 and Matt 23:3 Jesus tells Jews to remain Jewish and Jesus says Salvation is from the Jews. G_D says : any one against a Jew,G_D will be against him.

The converted gentile needs a way to make the Jews less and them more, this is why they rewrite scripture to make themselves a replacement for G_D's people.

Gentiles become Jewish; then grafted into the one family of G_D, converted gentiles (called completed Jews) can enter the 3 rd. temple. Also what law is the converted gentile save from if the only law is to the Jews.

There is no Old and New Testament, another fantasy of the converted gentile, every word of scripture is to the Jews.

This is the way everything works:...................................
The word of G_D is the absolute rule...............................
the words of the Prophets is next...................................
The word of Yeshua confirms the Word of G_D and the Prophets................
The word of Yeshua......................................................................
The word of the students of Yeshua, the disciples, are not a repeat of the Word from G_D. The decsiples are the least trusted and as Paul said: "when he went to a new town, he found out where the Jews lived, Paul said he lied to the Jews so they would let him stay with them. (this lie broke all ten commandment).

So you understand, Every word spoken by a disciple of Yeshua must be confirmed by the Word of G_D. If a disciple says something and you can not find where G_D said it, your mis understood what the disciple said.

There is much more proof that gentiles are converted Jews and not Christians.
Who is grafted....
Christians will fight to the death to prove they are not Jews, if a Christian talked to a Jews about Yeshua, and did not convert them, the Jews would say "Thank you ,go in Peace" the Christian would say"your going to hell".

What laws are gentile converts saved by grace from" answer Jewish Law" how can you be saved from Jewish Law if your not Jewish.

The unspoken truth is gentile converts hate the Jewish people, they cover up their hate by saying they are trying to save Jews from hell. Gentile converts hide from the truth by quoting verses that hides the truth. The above is NOT a debate.

[Jude3b]

Hey everyone,

I hope this topic is in the right forum.

With the whole controversy of Gibson's movie it made me remember a question I've had that would change the whole idea of Christians being anti-semetic.

By what I have read in the Bible Christianity seems to be nothing more than the fulfillment of Old Testament. (ex. the coming messiah, the new covenant, laws on their hearts instead of tablets, light to the gentiles [this comes mainly from Jeremiah]). So are gentile Christians really nothing more than uncircumcised Jews? Unfortunately it would be kind of hard to go to a Jewish person who doesn't believe in Jesus and say, "Hey there I'm a Jew as well." But would everyone here agree that a true Christian is not only not anti-semetic but also a uncircumcised Jew as well?

thanks for your time


Dear salvationfound:


Excellent topic. Thank you for asking this question/starting this thread.

For an answer to your excllent questionk, Let us take a look at the Word of God:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:15 & 16)

Under the New Covenant:

"...in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Why?

Because in Christ and under the New Covenant:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS." (Gal. 3:28).

THE ISRAEL OF GOD TODAY IS THE CHURCH OF GOD - THE BODY OF CHRIST!

The Israel of God includes all the saved! They might have formerly been Jews, Baptists, Methodis, Roman Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Hindu's, Atheists, or just plain confused. If someone is saved, they are now the church of God - the body of Christ, which today is the Israel of God (the special people of God)!

[larrye2001]

One reply said: (in part)For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:15 & 16) Under the New Covenant:

This reply referrers to the physical.

Paul wrote Gal. Paul is seldom understood. Paul said:unless your a grafted gentile convert as a Jew, nothing applies to gentile converts who follows Yeshua.

Paul said "you are saved by grace not the law. How can you be saved from the Law if your not under Jewish Law.

Peter and Paul had a meeting and defined what Jewish laws gentile converts would be required to keep and what laws gentiles were saved from by grace.

Yeshua said "He came to fulfill what the prophets said about Yeshua,and did not come to fulfill or change the Fathers laws. Yeshua said I came for the sinner not the righteous Jew. Mat: 23:3 Yeshua instructs Righteous Jews to follow the Law. Yeshua said "salvation is from the Jews"

When gentile converts stop trying to create a new religion called Christians and turn back to the word of G_D, all Righteous Jews and all Christians will be in the one family of G_D.

John said in Rev.11:1-2 ; G_D will call anyone that is not a Jew a gentile. John also points out that all scripture is written to the Jew.

The fallacy of Christians is they think they replaced the Righteous Jewish people, Yeshua followed every Commandment and every Law,Christians are to follow the example of Yeshua.

Christians like to pick and chose using their short term memory so the don't remember when they contradict themselves, they place layers of people between then so they can not be asked true questions.

When Christians believe " G_D; the Prophets and Yeshua first then turn to Paul to see if Paul is correct, Christians will understand how they are grafted into the ONE FAMILY of G_D.

G_D has one family,Yeshua came to show gentiles and the non righteous Jews the only way to enter the one Jewish family of G_D.

When Christians believe they replaced the Jews, they mis quote Paul and forget what G_D;the Prophets and Yeshua said.

There is no OT or NT, all testament is written by Jews to Jews,, Righteous and Grafted Jews.

The mis direction about minor and major prophets,The Trinity, O and N testament,Christians replacing the Jews, If Yeshua died for the sins of the world,G_D would see this world as sinless because of Yeshua,but Christians,then believe if you don't repent Yeshua did not die for the un repented sin. Yeshua said: "Break one you break them all". G_D said Keep the Sabbath,Christians say NO.

What is true is gentiles become completed Jews in Yeshua!

[Jude3b]

One reply said: (in part)For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:15 & 16) Under the New Covenant:

This reply referrers to the physical.

Paul wrote Gal. Paul is seldom understood. Paul said:unless your a grafted gentile convert as a Jew, nothing applies to gentile converts who follows Yeshua.

Paul said "you are saved by grace not the law. How can you be saved from the Law if your not under Jewish Law.

Peter and Paul had a meeting and defined what Jewish laws gentile converts would be required to keep and what laws gentiles were saved from by grace.

Yeshua said "He came to fulfill what the prophets said about Yeshua,and did not come to fulfill or change the Fathers laws. Yeshua said I came for the sinner not the righteous Jew. Mat: 23:3 Yeshua instructs Righteous Jews to follow the Law. Yeshua said "salvation is from the Jews"

When gentile converts stop trying to create a new religion called Christians and turn back to the word of G_D, all Righteous Jews and all Christians will be in the one family of G_D.

John said in Rev.11:1-2 ; G_D will call anyone that is not a Jew a gentile. John also points out that all scripture is written to the Jew.

The fallacy of Christians is they think they replaced the Righteous Jewish people, Yeshua followed every Commandment and every Law,Christians are to follow the example of Yeshua.

Christians like to pick and chose using their short term memory so the don't remember when they contradict themselves, they place layers of people between then so they can not be asked true questions.

When Christians believe " G_D; the Prophets and Yeshua first then turn to Paul to see if Paul is correct, Christians will understand how they are grafted into the ONE FAMILY of G_D.

G_D has one family,Yeshua came to show gentiles and the non righteous Jews the only way to enter the one Jewish family of G_D.

When Christians believe they replaced the Jews, they mis quote Paul and forget what G_D;the Prophets and Yeshua said.

There is no OT or NT, all testament is written by Jews to Jews,, Righteous and Grafted Jews.

The mis direction about minor and major prophets,The Trinity, O and N testament,Christians replacing the Jews, If Yeshua died for the sins of the world,G_D would see this world as sinless because of Yeshua,but Christians,then believe if you don't repent Yeshua did not die for the un repented sin. Yeshua said: "Break one you break them all". G_D said Keep the Sabbath,Christians say NO.

What is true is gentiles become completed Jews in Yeshua!


Dear Larrye2001:

Despite your opinions without a true Biblical Basis...

Any Jew or Gentile without Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will die and spend eternity in Hell!

By the way, where do you come off changing what Paul said in Gal 6:15 & 16?

[larrye2001]

Thanks for the reply, I wrote to you so you have a chance to re read scripture.

If the (NT) was written to gentile converts "why would John write only to the Jews in Rev.11:1-2,telling them how to rebuild the Jewish Temple larger and then say: G_D said, anyone not a Jew is a gentile and can not enter the House of G_D.

Paul admits he"told the Rabbi he "believed and followed all the Laws of Moses" and when the Rabbi wasn't looking he preached about Yeshua", You must Trust G_D, the Prophets and Yeshua, then see if what Paul said is the same. If what Paul says is not confirmed by G_D then you mis understood Paul.
Paul spoke the truth but few take the time to understand, remember Yeshua died before Paul became a believer, Paul never knew Yeshua and the Holy Spirit had to stop or correct Paul several times.

Good reading. If you have a chance read the Laws of Moses and remember Yeshua said: He came to fulfill only what the Prophets said about Him(Yeshua) not the Law. John 4:22:; Mat: 23:3 and many more scriptures, Yeshua confirms that being a righteous Jew is Good. Yeshua said he did not come for the righteous he came for the sinner.

G_D is in the details not what appears on the surface.

=========
Jude3b
You said any Jew or gentile who dies without Yeshua will go to Hell.

==============================================
How did Moses and Elijah meet with Yeshua before Yeshua died when both died before Yeshua was born. How did the three men in the furnace talk with Yeshua before Yeshua was born? G_D is in the details.

Good reading

[larrye2001]

Jude3b
You said any Jew or gentile who dies without Yeshua will go to Hell.

==============================================
How did Moses and Elijah meet with Yeshua before Yeshua died when both died before Yeshua was born. How did the three men in the furnace talk with Yeshua before Yeshua was born? G_D is in the details.

Good reading

Please do not make back to back replies to the same post. I am combining your posts together this time.

[Jude3b]

Jude3b
You said any Jew or gentile who dies without Yeshua will go to Hell.

==============================================
How did Moses and Elijah meet with Yeshua before Yeshua died when both died before Yeshua was born. How did the three men in the furnace talk with Yeshua before Yeshua was born? G_D is in the details.

Good reading


Dear larrye2001:

Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth and Life, NO ONE comes to the Father except by Him."

So Moses and Elijah looked forward and trusted in the Messiah that was to come and that had been promised as far back as Gen. 3:15.

The 4th man in the furnace is "the Son of God - Jesus."

All the Old Testament saints are saved the same way that all New Testament saints are saved. They trust in Messiah - Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior. Old Testament saints were looking forward until the time He would come. New Testament saints look back, because He's already come.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" That's the way to be saved!

[larrye2001]

Jude3b,

If I understand you correctly: your saying: G_D is sending Jews to Israel today, to rebuild His Temple and when their finished G_D will send them to Hell and every Jew that died in the past is in hell or going to Hell.

Now you know why I posted this topic, get into a good bible study group before you reply again. If your Bible says G_D changed his word to the Jewish People, you need the "WORD" that starts with a "B" not a "K", your own words confirm what you believe is not true.

Look at Rev.11:1-2 ..G_D calls all non Jews "Gentiles Heathens" Every righteous Jew believes Yeshua will come in the future so are they saved even though they do not believe today; in Yeshua's coming 2000 years ago.

It's time to update your thinking and research what I posted earlier. Your mis understanding of G_D and the Jewish People is why Christians have been killing Jews for the last 2000 years.

Larry


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dear larrye2001:

Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth and Life, NO ONE comes to the Father except by Him."

So Moses and Elijah looked forward and trusted in the Messiah that was to come and that had been promised as far back as Gen. 3:15. THIS IS NOT TRUE
The 4th man in the furnace is "the Son of God - Jesus." BEFORE YESHUA WAS BORN,HOW All the Old Testament saints are saved the same way that all New Testament saints are saved. They trust in Messiah - Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior. Old Testament saints were looking forward until the time He would come. New Testament saints look back, because He's already come. IF THIS IS WHAT YOUR CHURCH TEACHES, CHANGE CHURCHES "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" That's the way to be saved!YESHUA SAID HE DID NOT COME FOR THE RIGHTEOUS (WHO ARE THE RIGHTEOUS/)

[Apolocaust]

So, Jesus wasn't being sarcastic, and the Pharisees who ended up killing Him were indeed righteous before God?

[Jude3b]

Jude3b,

If I understand you correctly: your saying: G_D is sending Jews to Israel today, to rebuild His Temple and when their finished G_D will send them to Hell and every Jew that died in the past is in hell or going to Hell.

Now you know why I posted this topic, get into a good bible study group before you reply again. If your Bible says G_D changed his word to the Jewish People, you need the "WORD" that starts with a "B" not a "K", your own words confirm what you believe is not true.

Look at Rev.11:1-2 ..G_D calls all non Jews "Gentiles Heathens" Every righteous Jew believes Yeshua will come in the future so are they saved even though they do not believe today; in Yeshua's coming 2000 years ago.

It's time to update your thinking and research what I posted earlier. Your mis understanding of G_D and the Jewish People is why Christians have been killing Jews for the last 2000 years.

Larry


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
YESHUA SAID HE DID NOT COME FOR THE RIGHTEOUS (WHO ARE THE RIGHTEOUS/)


Dear Larry:

Where do you come off, blatantly telling me that something is not true. Give me the Bible verse and scripture that says its not true. Who are you, God? Are you an infallible man, that you know more than what the Bible says?

Who are the Righteous you ask? Lets look at the verse you are partially quoting:

"But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matt. 9:12 & 13)

Who are the Righteous? To start with: One who is Righteous is in right standing with God.

What is the verse about that you are quoting:

Christ came to save sinners, not the righteous. This verse is quoted from Hos. 6:6 and I Sam. 15:22. Jesus is saying, I desire acts of mercy on your part rather than sacrifices.

Animal sacrifices, which were prescribed by the law and thus necessary and appropriate, were meaningless unless accompanied by true obedience to the law, along with true repentance and faith in God's mercy and forgiveness. Such characteristics of one who offers sacrifice would inevitably produce a merciful attitude in that person's life.

On the other hand: IF YOUR RELIGION MAKES YOU SELF-RIGHTEOUS and you feel exalted or proud and you feel defiled by associating with sinners and those who don't agree with your religion, your sacrifices are in vain.

In either case, there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, for as He said: "...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man (no Jew, no Gentile, No Muslim, No Atheist, No Mormon, No Roman Catholic, etc.) cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) Therefore, you want to go to Heaven, you can only get there through Jesus Christ!

[maudman]

One reply said: (in part)For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:15 & 16) Under the New Covenant:

This reply referrers to the physical.

Paul wrote Gal. Paul is seldom understood. Paul said:unless your a grafted gentile convert as a Jew, nothing applies to gentile converts who follows Yeshua.

Paul said "you are saved by grace not the law. How can you be saved from the Law if your not under Jewish Law.

Peter and Paul had a meeting and defined what Jewish laws gentile converts would be required to keep and what laws gentiles were saved from by grace.

Yeshua said "He came to fulfill what the prophets said about Yeshua,and did not come to fulfill or change the Fathers laws. Yeshua said I came for the sinner not the righteous Jew. Mat: 23:3 Yeshua instructs Righteous Jews to follow the Law. Yeshua said "salvation is from the Jews"

When gentile converts stop trying to create a new religion called Christians and turn back to the word of G_D, all Righteous Jews and all Christians will be in the one family of G_D.

John said in Rev.11:1-2 ; G_D will call anyone that is not a Jew a gentile. John also points out that all scripture is written to the Jew.

The fallacy of Christians is they think they replaced the Righteous Jewish people, Yeshua followed every Commandment and every Law,Christians are to follow the example of Yeshua.

Christians like to pick and chose using their short term memory so the don't remember when they contradict themselves, they place layers of people between then so they can not be asked true questions.

When Christians believe " G_D; the Prophets and Yeshua first then turn to Paul to see if Paul is correct, Christians will understand how they are grafted into the ONE FAMILY of G_D.

G_D has one family,Yeshua came to show gentiles and the non righteous Jews the only way to enter the one Jewish family of G_D.

When Christians believe they replaced the Jews, they mis quote Paul and forget what G_D;the Prophets and Yeshua said.

There is no OT or NT, all testament is written by Jews to Jews,, Righteous and Grafted Jews.

The mis direction about minor and major prophets,The Trinity, O and N testament,Christians replacing the Jews, If Yeshua died for the sins of the world,G_D would see this world as sinless because of Yeshua,but Christians,then believe if you don't repent Yeshua did not die for the un repented sin. Yeshua said: "Break one you break them all". G_D said Keep the Sabbath,Christians say NO.

What is true is gentiles become completed Jews in Yeshua!


Hello larrye2001

Your posts are straight to the heart of it all. The truth of what was happening in Israel 2000 years ago is about the Israelite and they’re redeemer. If you don’t mind I will post something that will make things a little clearer for them. But you have well said.

First The Law that Yeshua came to fulfill was as larrye2001 said, “The Law of the Prophet” the redeemer of Israel. Now this can be confusing because people are looking at the bible from the perspective of what Christian religionist are saying not what the bible was saying.

Nobody on the face of the earth had the Laws of the prophet except Israel. They were the vessel or container of a prophecy given in the Garden of Eden. Israel was a people whom the Lord was visiting nobody else was being visited as they were. The Lord was working exclusively with the Son of Adam or also known as the Son of Man. A tilte also carried by the redeemer he was a natural descendent of Adam that is why you have all tracing of the lineage back to Adam he’s not the first man created he’s the first to be created by the LORD GOD not GOD.

Now ask yourself if Israelites were the only ones to receive the laws of YHWH and the Laws of the Prophet, which was the foundation of their Covenant. How was Christ going to die for the GOY if they had never know the law, and how could it be accounted as sin if they had never known the law to transgress it. Israelites were making sacrifices for atonements for Sin which was transgression of a law given exclusively to them. And it is as Larrye2001 SAY’S; the apostles were going to the Lost Sheep of Israel because they had fallen into sin. He was drawing back to him his lost sheep, concurred centuries before by the Assyrians.

Now ask yourselves this? If the Father was telling Yeshua that a sacrifice for atonement was needed and a final sacrifice once and for all for atonement for the sins of Israel, “who would ultimately have to make that sacrifice”. Who was making the sacrifices for the Israelites in the past? Well, it was the JEW the high priest of the temple. You see folks this has been lost as have many things. Only the High priest could make a sacrifice for Israel. And remember. Yeshua was doing the will of the father not the will of Israel. God had to blind Israel or they would have never made the sacrifice. But there is much more to this entire story, you may ask yourself? How then is Christ the savor of the world! If what he was doing was for just Israel? And this is no mystery either. But this should get you thinking.

Great post Larrye2001

[Jude3b]

Hello larrye2001

Your posts are straight to the heart of it all. The truth of what was happening in Israel 2000 years ago is about the Israelite and they’re redeemer. If you don’t mind I will post something that will make things a little clearer for them. But you have well said.

First The Law that Yeshua came to fulfill was as larrye2001 said, “The Law of the Prophet” the redeemer of Israel. Now this can be confusing because people are looking at the bible from the perspective of what Christian religionist are saying not what the bible was saying.

Nobody on the face of the earth had the Laws of the prophet except Israel. They were the vessel or container of a prophecy given in the Garden of Eden. Israel was a people whom the Lord was visiting nobody else was being visited as they were. The Lord was working exclusively with the Son of Adam or also known as the Son of Man. A tilte also carried by the redeemer he was a natural descendent of Adam that is why you have all tracing of the lineage back to Adam he’s not the first man created he’s the first to be created by the LORD GOD not GOD.

Now ask yourself if Israelites were the only ones to receive the laws of YHWH and the Laws of the Prophet, which was the foundation of their Covenant. How was Christ going to die for the GOY if they had never know the law, and how could it be accounted as sin if they had never known the law to transgress it. Israelites were making sacrifices for atonements for Sin which was transgression of a law given exclusively to them. And it is as Larrye2001 SAY’S; the apostles were going to the Lost Sheep of Israel because they had fallen into sin. He was drawing back to him his lost sheep, concurred centuries before by the Assyrians.

Now ask yourselves this? If the Father was telling Yeshua that a sacrifice for atonement was needed and a final sacrifice once and for all for atonement for the sins of Israel, “who would ultimately have to make that sacrifice”. Who was making the sacrifices for the Israelites in the past? Well, it was the JEW the high priest of the temple. You see folks this has been lost as have many things. Only the High priest could make a sacrifice for Israel. And remember. Yeshua was doing the will of the father not the will of Israel. God had to blind Israel or they would have never made the sacrifice. But there is much more to this entire story, you may ask yourself? How then is Christ the savor of the world! If what he was doing was for just Israel? And this is no mystery either. But this should get you thinking.

Great post Larrye2001


Dear Maudman:

You fail to realize and believe what the Word of God says about those who had "...the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS..." (Romans 2:15) And this verse in not speaking about Jews and Israelites.

[Gavriel]

No.

If they were they'd call themselves Jews. Christianity is a COMPLETELY seperate religion all together.

[Jude3b]

No.

If they were they'd call themselves Jews. Christianity is a COMPLETELY seperate religion all together.


True Biblical Christianity is not a Religion. It is God reaching down and saving lost sinful man. God has provided the complete and perfect sacrifice of Christ on the Cross on behalf of all "the whosoever wills" of the World. You know the verse, "...whosoever will, let him take the water of....." (Rev. 22:17).

How do you take the water?

"Behold I (Jesus Christ) stand at the door (of your heart), and knock..." Jesus wants us all to open the door to our heart and life and let Him in to be our personal Lord and Savior.

It is very important to do so, for:

me and thee and all here on TWEB, because: "...Except (or unles) a man be born-again..." you don't get to go to heaven! Period! You don't pass go and you don't collect $200!

Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Hinduism, Mormonism and Every other "ISM" is only a Religion, whereby man is trying to please or appease or find their way to whatever their idea of God is and to whatever they perceive to be heaven or Nirvana or whatever!

[Gavriel]

True Biblical Christianity is not a Religion.

Did you even read what I said? You're saying "True" and then saying the opposite.

I said "Christianity is a COMPLETELY seperate religion"

If you're just going to preach, I don't care. However don't bother replying and quoting my message with this nonsense.

[Jude3b]

Did you even read what I said? You're saying "True" and then saying the opposite.

I said "Christianity is a COMPLETELY seperate religion"

If you're just going to preach, I don't care. However don't bother replying and quoting my message with this nonsense.


Dear Gavriel:

Yes, I read your post. Otherwise I would not have responded to it.

Lighten up. I bet your Mother told you not to be rude! Didn't she?

Of course Christianity is different from Judaism or any religion including the many so called Christian religions. Why did I post what I posted? Because,
I take issue with your post. That is why I posted back to you that "True Biblical Christianity is not a Religion." Perhaps you belong to a denomination and that is a religion, but is it true Christianity?

[maudman]

Dear Maudman:

You fail to realize and believe what the Word of God says about those who had "...the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS..." (Romans 2:15) And this verse in not speaking about Jews and Israelites.

Well Jude you presumed that I have failed to realize. I haven't failed to realize Romans 2:15 just never said anything about it. Or what it actually means. Christ was going to be a sacrifice for Israel because they were in danger of damnation.

They of all people on earth were the ones that had a personal relationship with the lord. And it meant that their sin was greater because they were outrightly rejecting the truth, not mankind. If they were the only one's to have a relationship with the Lord and sin was transgression of his will then they were in danger of harsh judgment. Prophets were sent to Israel not the world. They were warning Israel not the world of their sin towards not only God but the Lord. Mankind was not in danger of damnation only Israel. But Mankind could sin against God but not the Lord in the way Israel could.


Jude Jesus Christ was the savoir of the world not only at the present but the past and future as well and he did it not because the world new him but because he knew the world. Strange as it may seem the bible doesn't condem as many people as you do in an eternal fire.

Some people think just because others can't understand the truth because you and others have fail to present it in a way they can comprehend it. That somehow they are comdemd. But I'm telling you Jude I won't be judge for what you know! YOu will! I'll be judged for what I know and that is what the bible say's is righteous judgment. The plane fact of the matter is God is merciful toward unwillful ignorance. And if you have been judging people just because you see something, then you are in danger of your own judgment.

peace Jude.

[Jude3b]

Well Jude you presumed that I have failed to realize. I haven't failed to realize Romans 2:15 just never said anything about it. Or what it actually means. Christ was going to be a sacrifice for Israel because they were in danger of damnation.

They of all people on earth were the ones that had a personal relationship with the lord. And it meant that their sin was greater because they were outrightly rejecting the truth, not mankind. If they were the only one's to have a relationship with the Lord and sin was transgression of his will then they were in danger of harsh judgment. Prophets were sent to Israel not the world. They were warning Israel not the world of their sin towards not only God but the Lord. Mankind was not in danger of damnation only Israel. But Mankind could sin against God but not the Lord in the way Israel could.


Jude Jesus Christ was the savoir of the world not only at the present but the past and future as well and he did it not because the world new him but because he knew the world. Strange as it may seem the bible doesn't condem as many people as you do in an eternal fire.

Some people think just because others can't understand the truth because you and others have fail to present it in a way they can comprehend it. That somehow they are comdemd. But I'm telling you Jude I won't be judge for what you know! YOu will! I'll be judged for what I know and that is what the bible say's is righteous judgment. The plane fact of the matter is God is merciful toward unwillful ignorance. And if you have been judging people just because you see something, then you are in danger of your own judgment.

peace Jude.


Dear maudman:

I do not disagree with your post. Just the tone of it a little.

It kind of reminds me that we need to lighten up a bit here:

The TEACHER asked me: "What do you get when you multiply sixty-three times fourteen?"
MY RESPONSE: "The wrong answer, I'm sure."


Of course you are right. You won't be judged for what I know and vice versa.

God will judge and He is the only one who can, based on the "light" someone has received and their response to it.

Just to clarify my position. I judge no man and cannot. I am not God. That is His business, not mine and I don't want the job either.

I do on the other hand compare doctrinal issues with the Word of God - to see if the Doctrine is true or false and God actually wants us to do that! That is not judging any one individual person, although some seem to believe it is. Perhaps it is "Guilt by Association," but I cannot control that part.

[Joe Gofish]

Well Jude you presumed that I have failed to realize. I haven't failed to realize Romans 2:15 just never said anything about it. Or what it actually means. Christ was going to be a sacrifice for Israel because they were in danger of damnation.

They of all people on earth were the ones that had a personal relationship with the lord. And it meant that their sin was greater because they were outrightly rejecting the truth, not mankind. If they were the only one's to have a relationship with the Lord and sin was transgression of his will then they were in danger of harsh judgment. Prophets were sent to Israel not the world. They were warning Israel not the world of their sin towards not only God but the Lord. Mankind was not in danger of damnation only Israel. But Mankind could sin against God but not the Lord in the way Israel could.


Jude Jesus Christ was the savoir of the world not only at the present but the past and future as well and he did it not because the world new him but because he knew the world. Strange as it may seem the bible doesn't condem as many people as you do in an eternal fire.

Some people think just because others can't understand the truth because you and others have fail to present it in a way they can comprehend it. That somehow they are comdemd. But I'm telling you Jude I won't be judge for what you know! YOu will! I'll be judged for what I know and that is what the bible say's is righteous judgment. The plane fact of the matter is God is merciful toward unwillful ignorance. And if you have been judging people just because you see something, then you are in danger of your own judgment.

peace Jude.
yOU MUST REMEMBER jude DOES NOT PREACH WHAT THE bIBLE HAS TO SAY,JuDE PREACHS WHAT HE THINKS THE bIBLE HAS TO SAY iTS THE GOSPEL ACORDING TO jude.
JUDE HAS HIS/HER OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE.

[Joe Gofish]

Dear maudman:

I do not disagree with your post. Just the tone of it a little.

It kind of reminds me that we need to lighten up a bit here:

The TEACHER asked me: "What do you get when you multiply sixty-three times fourteen?"
MY RESPONSE: "The wrong answer, I'm sure."


Of course you are right. You won't be judged for what I know and vice versa.

God will judge and He is the only one who can, based on the "light" someone has received and their response to it.

Just to clarify my position. I judge no man and cannot. I am not God. That is His business, not mine and I don't want the job either.

I do on the other hand compare doctrinal issues with the Word of God - to see if the Doctrine is true or false and God actually wants us to do that! That is not judging any one individual person, although some seem to believe it is. Perhaps it is "Guilt by Association," but I cannot control that part.
JUDE You are using the word "teacher" remember that is against god's word,I think you said it was Mt 23:9.
JUDE please check it out we are trying to keep you from going to hell.

[Berean Todd]

If Christians are Jews, what word can be used to describe ethnical/Mosaic-law Jews?

Well, if we followed the model of Messianic Jews (those physical jews who have come to accept Christ as their Messiah), then we could use the words Jew (for those who do not accept Jesus) and completed-Jew (which is how most Messianic's refer to themselves).

[Berean Todd]

I think some of the arguing in this thread is missing a point. Are we literally Jews? No, we are not under the old covenent, we are not under the law, we are not under the sacrificial system. However, Christianity at many times through it's history has wound up very anti-semitic, and that is sad because just as we are not Jews we are also not non-jews.

Ephesians 2 talks about the two (Jew and Gentile) being made one in Christ ... Romans 11 talks about us Gentiles having been grafted onto the branch of Israel. Jesus was a Jew His whole life, and He fulfilled and followed the law. Our faith has a wonderful Jewish heritage, and that is something that sadly far too many Christians ignore and overlook.