Holy place

[Justme]

Hi all,

I am looking for ideas about the holy place. In Matthew it is said that when the abomination that causes desolation appears in the HOLY PLACE....
The reference I use is in Hebrews 9 where it describes the 'holy place' in the earthly sanctuary(temple).

I'd be interested in any links/whatever that could be provided to discussions you have had here on this subject. I searched , but I recieved a very log list of threads.

Thank you,

Justme

[Justme]

Hi again,

I'm looking for anything on this topic of the holy place for a discussion I want to revive over on Christianforums. The thread can be viewed here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=718616#post718616

There are qyuestions about Daniel as well, but it appears there is plenty of discussion about that here already.

Thank you,

Justme

[Hitch]

Ever notice the cubical shape of the Holy of Holies?

Just like the heavenly city, God's eternal resting place...


Take care

H

[Justme]

Hi Hitch,

Yes, I noticed it, but I don't know what it would mean other than where the sacrifice that took place under the law , now is only in the holy place not made with human hands.

Is there more to it than that?

Thanks,
Justme

[Hitch]

It means the Seat of the Presence is the church.

[Justme]

Hi Hitch,

From your post:

It means the Seat of the Presence is the church.
***************************

I don't doubt it for a minute, but could you expand on that if you find time?

Thank you,
Justme

[Hitch]

How does one expand on the purpose of history?

The reconcilliation is the reason for everything that has taken place since the Fall, and possibly even before. Adam lived ,however briefly, in the nonjudgemental Presence of God. Adam's sin required the first blood sacrfice, for covering, and expulsion from the Garden. God's holy justice could not abide Adam that close anymore. In fact the entire history of man would find him in this poor position . Until the day Christ entered the Temple with that price only he could pay.

All that is recorded in Scripture and all we know nothing of was ordained by God to bring mankind to that day. So lavish is God's love that history is ordered to bring Christ into the realm of man thereby allowing the legal sacrfice of his very flesh.(its hard to put that down without being overcome) The gain of the cross is and must be more than was lost in the Garden. Christ and his work is greater than the loss Adam incurred. The Resurrection is greater than the Fall. In history as well as eternity. As light dispels darkness life ,through Christ, ovecomes death and as there was a place to show God's Presence with men, once shrouded by walls and veils and rituals, where the lack of proper sacrifice was instantly terminal, there is a new place.

As Christ's priestly mediation need not and can never be replaced, the locus of the Presence is forever settled. By the choice of the Almighty and nothing less . The former which was representative and prophetic is now realised. This construction of Christ, square and true, perfect in dimention, built entirely of individual stones, is no longer the representation of God but rather the Seat of His Glory on earth.

To be redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb and live by the Spirit , shinning in the pure light of His righteousness makes the earth sing of the beauty and glory of this four-square City. The heavenly Jerusalem , the Church ,Bretheren ,Body and Bride of Christ Jesus, the purpose of history.


Take care

H

[John Reece]

Very well said, Hitch.

:thumb:

[Justme]

Hi Hitch,

Question:

I took this staterment from your post:

Until the day Christ entered the Temple with that price only he could pay.
**********************

I am assuming you mean the Heavenly temple that was not made by man's hand here.

I like the way you write as John R said, but still the people are told to flee when the abomination appears in the holy place. That sounds to me like a physical location.
I'm looking for the literal meaning of this holy place.

Thanks for writng that,

Justme

[Hitch]

Today @ 01:40 AM
Justme:

Hi Hitch,

Question:

I took this staterment from your post:

Until the day Christ entered the Temple with that price only he could pay.
**********************

I am assuming you mean the Heavenly temple that was not made by man's hand here.

I like the way you write as John R said, but still the people are told to flee when the abomination appears in the holy place. That sounds to me like a physical location.
I'm looking for the literal meaning of this holy place.

Thanks for writng that,

Justme Well the city that hosted the Temple was known all over the world and still is as a 'holy' place. In Jesus time the Temple was made 'holy' because he taught there. To this day we efere to Jerusalem as part of the 'holy land'.

take care

Hitch

[Justme]

Hi,

Yes, I agree that Jerusalem is still talked about as the holy land, but is the holy PLACE more specific. Is the holy place only in that temple that was destroyed as in Hebrews 9:1-4.

If the holy place was in the temple that tells us when the abomination that causes desolation could have stood in it.
Thanks for your interest.

Justme

[Hitch]

I think it may or may not be. I reckon its more of a literary device than some kind of geographical marker. It's there to set the once holy against the current apostate. To show the expose the once beautiful bride as the whore she has become.

I think its fair to say the 'abomination' is shown by the fact of the surrounding armies, and that is indeed the physical reality, while the greater reality is the degree of fall into apostacy on the part of the Priesthood, the City and the Nation.

Take care

Hitch

[o2bwise]

Hi JustMe,

Yeah, something called the abomination of desolation takes place in the holy place. This is true.

The sanctuary is representative of the MIND of man. It is meant to be the place where God dwells.

God is longing to produce a remnant wherein He can dwell in an unveiled fashion. This is only possible when a people is perfectly cleansed from sin because if a person still has sin, the unveiled presence of God, which must consume sin, will consume the sinner with his sin.

This is why the work of sanctification is gradual, as it must be.

But, God will have a people who have that unveiled experience with Christ. That is, the follow Him behind the veil, into the Most Holy.

Prophecy refers to an extreme polarization in the last days. There eventually are no more shades of gray. Either one is behind the veil or one has no experience whatsoever.

It is at this time, when the faithful are behind the veil, in the Most Holy, that the abomination of desolation takes place in the holy. There will be a huge contingent of professed Christians who repudiate the authenticity of the Most Holy experience. Part of their claim that their experience is a sham will be that the faithful will be enduring intense trial. They will be considered forsaken of God.

Meanwhile, they will deny the possibility of perfection. They will also insist that their experience, while imperfect, is VALID.

But, it is not valid. Because it is that time of great polarization, the only valid experience is had by those in the Most Holy with Christ.

Thus, these people insist on the validity of their experience and it is implied that they are insisting on the validity of the retention of a "holy place" experience.

Because their experience is profession only, Christ is not in it. These folks are gone. In their refusal to partake of the Most Holy experience when it was available, the perpetuation of the holy place experience is tantamount to its desolation.

There is more.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[Justme]

Hi o2bwise,

That is a neat peice of work. Thanks for writing.

I think is all well and good to create a modern time equal to biblical scripture. I would think there are present day lessons to be learned from most of the writing in the bible.
However, I think before we can know the proper path the lesson for today should take, we have to know what was meant by the words in the bible at the time the words in the bible were said.

The bottom line of the Olivet Discourse is the coming of the son of man, which biblically speaking, is tied in with the destruction of the temple which in turn is tied in with the abomination that is seen in the holy place.

All of that fixes a timeframe on the prophecy. If that timeframe is fixed incorrectly it leads to biblically incorrect doctrine. The result of incorrect doctrine can still result in satisfying 'religion' I guess, but my interest is not so much in 'religion' as trying to unravel what the bible really says.

Thank you,
Justme

[o2bwise]

Hi JustMe,

Thank you!

I hear and appreciate your concern that an interpretation cannot be valid should it be incompatible with the biblically mandated timeline for the event being referred to.

My understanding embraces the idea that prophecies that can have multiple applications. It seems that most prophecy has an endtime thematic fulfillment. Not a fulfillment in terms of the time duration, but a fulfillment in terms of the theme. There is a last day wilderness experience and three day experience, for example. There is a last day experience of full disclosure to sword.

Certainly, I think there are also prophetic fulfillments that have to do with the immediate historical context in which they are given.

So also, I believe there are historicist applications to many prophecies where a symbolic day is equivalent to a literal year. As an example, I believe there is such a fulfillment to the 1260 day prophecy, spanning from 538 AD to 1798 AD.

If I am correct in my understanding, it would follow that prophetic understanding is typically not a strict "either-or," i.e. "Look, here is a fulfillment that has all to do with the immediate historical context of the prophecy. Therefore I REJECT the possibility of other applications to the prophecy."

Such an either-or mindset could be highly detrimental. A denial of one application simply because another application is observed, at least plausibly, is unnecessarily narrow-minded.

One example of what I am trying to say are the prophecies of restoration from Babylon. If you look at so many passages, such as in Jeremiah, what is spoken of is so much broader and bigger than a literal restroration from a literal Babylon (and we know there is a Babylon spoken of in Revelation that obviously is subsequent to that literal Babylon consistent with the historical context of Jeremiah).

Jeremiah refers to things like the problem being evil thoughts that lodge in the hearts of the Israel of God. (Hmmm, evil thoughts still lodge in my heart.) Or a looking forward to a people that survive the sword in the wilderness. Or a people in whom the new covenant is given (law written in the heart). Or an experience of standing atop Mount Zion where only holiness dwells.

The themes are so often spirit. They portend something glorious God some day produces in a people.

I suggest it is the apocalyptic application that is the least physical, the most spiritual, and the most glorious.

For example, it is one thing to talk about a physical compartment in a physical sanctuary, it is quite another to talk about God's desire to be able to have a people stand before Him, with full purity of heart, having God dwelling fully in the sanctuary (heart) of His faithful.

It is possible that all those "immediate in context" fulfiillments have a primary purpose - that being to be object lessons to aid His people to be able to see something God is longing to give His people in the last days.

If this is true, a strict "either-or" posture is a short-circuit to God's longing in His people.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[Justme]

Hi,

I started athread on this at CARM called Holy Temple. You can look at it here. There was a quite a bit of discussion there. One guy had some similar thoughts to yours.

http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=1978&mesg_id=2132&page=

Hope that link works.

Justme

[o2bwise]

Thanks, justme, I appreciate it!