Why there is NO Pretrib Rapture

[prophetic]

Why there is No Pretribulation Rapture"

by R.S. Neaville

Matthew 24 & 1Thessalonians 4; A comparison. Two chapters that speak of the same event. Paul used Matthew 24 as his guide for teaching the Thessalonians about the resurrection, Christ's return.




In the following we will compare Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, chapters 4&5 to Jesus as he spoke in Matthew chapter 24. it quickly becomes evident that Jesus and Paul
were speaking of the exact same event, an event that many call the Rapture of the church. You will notice that Jesus places the timing of that event After the great tribulation (vs.29) . In
Fact we witness Paul following Jesus’s discourse thought for thought in order.
Matthew 24:29-31;


29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken:

30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.

31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1Thessalonians 4:16-17;

16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In one we see us being caught up to meet Christ in the clouds, with the sound of the trumpet, in the other Jesus gathers us as he comes in the clouds with the sound of the
trumpet...sound like the same event to you? read on and compare. At this point we should explain this one important point. Jesus is speaking of the end of things and his return,
while Paul is trying to explain about those who are dead in Christ. Both subjects concern the resurrection and so Christ’s coming. Paul then proceeds to follow Jesus’s teaching
thought for thought so that there is no mistake of what event he is referring to.

1Thess 5:1-11;

1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Now compare to Christ In Matt 24:37-51

37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

See how Paul quotes from Matthew 24
Coming of Christ
in the clouds
trumpet sound
gathering his people
as a thief in the nig
days of Noe/sudden destruction
drunken servant
sleeping servant
Paul says watch and do not sleep..be sober

And if indeed Paul wrote 1Thess 4&5 with Matthew 24 as his mental guide....then there is no pre tribulation rapture. For Matt 24:29 DECLARES :

29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken:

30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.

31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[ratioann]

I don't what your beliefs are, but I believe that have confused the glorious appearing with the rapture. I've done myself before, just have to read carefully.

In Matt 24:29

29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Okay, now this is obviously after the trib, when the glorious appearing is to occur.

30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now this verse makes it clear that this event is visable. 'Then shall appear' & 'they shall see' the son on man. Notice also that the 'tribes of the earth mourn', they wouldn't be mourning something they didn't see. After the great comission when Jesus was going up the clouds the angels said that is how He would return. This is not the rapture though, this happens afterwards when He sets up His kingdom.


1Thessalonians 4:16-17;

16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Noone is going to hear or see the dead rising.

17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He doesn't come down here, we are brought up, this is a secret believer only event.

[emulator]

3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Sounds like international policy and US tactics d'heur.
That was a very useful tidbit pro, thanks.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Of course there is no pretrib rapture. The "trib" is alrady over, and the "rapture" is a one time event where all people will be raised for the final judgement.


Ex: Matthew 24 starts off with the disciples asking Jesus the question, "When will these things happen.



Matthew 24

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus then tells them the signs to look for:


4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matt+24&Submit=Go#footnote_176146340_1)] ' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matt+24&Submit=Go#footnote_176146340_2)] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matt+24&Submit=Go#footnote_176146340_3)]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Then He tells his disciples that it is going to happen within that generation:

33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matt+24&Submit=Go#footnote_176146340_4)] is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matt+24&Submit=Go#footnote_176146340_5)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
So the trib is long past. The only "rapture" that is mentioned in the bible is the final ressrection of all for the final judgement.

This is what I believe, but I would love for someone to show me some biblical proof for a "secret" rapture that is reserved soley for the "Church".

Since both of the posters in this thread are fairly new to TWeb, I will give you a break. In case you didn't know, my eschatogical belief is known as preterism. In case you haven't heard of it (until about three years ago I hadn't heard of it either), you can do a quick search on TWeb to learn more about this view. I recommend going to the wrestling ring and viewing the eschatological wrestlefest and reading Dee Dee's post.

If you are familiar with preterism and want to prove me wrong, please give it your best shot. Really. With Bill the Cat away, I miss having these futurist/preterist discussions.

[ratioann]

Well, I had never heard of preterism til I started posting here, uh.. yesterday. But by the definition I got here I don't think I have a lot of problems with it. I don't know if I would say that MOST were fufilled, but there is certainly a nice chuck of them that have. I don't think I'm a preterist though. The trib is the seven year 'week' between the rapture and the glorious appearing. It has not started yet, but it will soon.

I think I have talked with someone about this before on another site. Do you think that the trib has already occured because it say "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."?
That last time I talked about this that's what it came down too, & I didn't have any response to it then either. Unless, it is read as, 'this future generation'.

But as far as the rapture being secret and for believers only..


Matt 24:43-50
43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

It seems clear to me that the good & bad servants above didn't know when He would come. And they are called servants, unbelievers would not be called that.

Hope I did okay, be gentle. :smile:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

ratioann:

OK. I little back ground on the preterist position. You will probably think it is wacky. I know that was my first reaction when I heard it.

I used to believe very much like you do. I even taught it in Sunday School.

But look at me now. Proud defender of the "wacky" preterism. :yipee::yipee:


We believe that most, in fact nearly all of the prophecies of the OT and the NT have been fullfilled. This includes the "Great Tribulation", which some preterist say began in AD 63 and all (or nearly all) agree culminated in AD 70 (seven years :wink:) with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

We believe that the only future events are the resurrection of all (for the sake of analogy the "rapture") The final judgement, and the New Heavens and the New Earth. (Other preteris did I leave anything off?)

That is a summary of the preterist position in nutshell.

This should in no way be confused with hyper preterism or neohymenaenism (sp?) which is the heretical belief that all prophecies have been fullfilled, incuding the resurection of the dead, and the final judgement.

Now on to your comments.


Well, I had never heard of preterism til I started posting here, uh.. yesterday. But by the definition I got here I don't think I have a lot of problems with it. I don't know if I would say that MOST were fufilled, but there is certainly a nice chuck of them that have. I don't think I'm a preterist though. The trib is the seven year 'week' between the rapture and the glorious appearing. It has not started yet, but it will soon. What do you mean by soon. If by soon you mean in the very near future, then maybe you are a preterist. If by soon you mean several thousand years from now, then you are most likely a futurist and are using what we preteist jokely refer to "futurist" soon.

What I mean by that is this. Throughout the NT the "Last Days", the "coming of Jesus", "the end of the age" and other eschatological events are reffered to as hapening soon, quckly, or near. Yet futurist say that this event is nearly 2000 years from the writing of the scripture.

In Revelation alone there are seven examples (seven being a significant number for the book of Revelation)

1:1 ....the things whic must shortly take place
1:3 The time is near.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly!
22:6-7 ...the things which must shortly take place.
22:12 Behold, I am come quickly
22:20 Surely I am coming quickly

So when a preterist ask you if by soon you mean soon or futurist soon, you now know what they mean. (It is a little joke with us, please do not take offense)


I think I have talked with someone about this before on another site. Do you think that the trib has already occured because it say "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."?
That last time I talked about this that's what it came down too, & I didn't have any response to it then either. Unless, it is read as, 'this future generation'.
Not only because it says "this generation" but because of the IMHO overwhelming amount of timing text that practically scream 1st century fulfillment. But that is just MHO. :grin:

But as far as the rapture being secret and for believers only..


Matt 24:43-50
43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

It seems clear to me that the good & bad servants above didn't know when He would come. And they are called servants, unbelievers would not be called that. OK. I buy that the "coming" of Jesus was to be a surprise to the "bad servants". But how do you get "rapture" out of coming? In order to understand what is meant by "Jesus coming in the clouds", lets look at other passages that speak of God coming in general, and in the clouds in specific (you do agree that Jesus is God? :wink:)

Gen 11:5 The Lord came down to see the city...
Is. 19:1 ...the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come...

for lack of time I will give you reference to a few more. Ex. 3:8, Ps. 18:9, 14, Isa 31:4, Mic. 1:3-4.

All of these passages talk about God coming, and all talk about Him coming in judgement. Some even talk about him coming in clouds, or from the sky.

So lets look at what we have from a preterist point of veiw.

1. Jesus, coming in judgement
2. Invovling the temple and it's destruction
3. That would happen in this generation

That could only be the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem that took place in AD 70.

Also, there was one group that history tells us totally escaped the devastation that was the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This group knew to "flee Judea". They were not surprised.

Care to guess which group?

I'll give you hint. It was the "good servants" :teeth:


Hope I did okay, be gentle. :smile: You did fine. :smile: Better than many futurist who have been debating preterist for years. I hope I was gentle. :bunny: That was my intent. You seem a very nice person, and I try really hard to save my nastiness only for people who deserve it. :whip: :btc:

[prophetic]

All It takes to doom preterism to the abyss (from whence it came and where it belongs) is one verse :

Mt 24:27 Because as in a thunderstorm the bright light coming from the east is seen even in the west; so will be the coming of the Son of man.
BBE

The proof is in the seeing. All will see Jesus when he returns His sign will appear in the heavens. A fact which history makes clear and preterism skips over..No one saw it

The minute some one say lookthere! or look here! they are lying. no one will have to say look for all will see him at his return.
prophetic

[ratioann]

yes you were very nice.
What I meant by soon is that it could happen within the next few years for all we know. There are maybe a few prophecies left, but these are certainly the last days.
So, now I know I am not a futurist, good. AndI do believe Jesus is God.

I just don't know about the rest though. I think that the good servants would be surprized also, since the good and bad are mixed..

1 Thess. 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These verses above mention believers going up..

blah i'm tired

[dizzle]

All It takes to doom preterism to the abyss (from whence it came and where it belongs) is one verse :

Hello to you too. I generally do not tell other brethren who do not deny any essential of the faith that their doctrine comes from the abyss. That is generally is not a good way to win friends and influence people. I have no such bones though with true heresy.



Mt 24:27 Because as in a thunderstorm the bright light coming from the east is seen even in the west; so will be the coming of the Son of man.
BBE


Wow! So you think the destruction of the apostatesof the first century was invisible? That sounds even whackier than preterism.

I think it may been time for the return of the Parable of the Purple Cow.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

All It takes to doom preterism to the abyss (from whence it came and where it belongs) is one verse :

Mt 24:27 Because as in a thunderstorm the bright light coming from the east is seen even in the west; so will be the coming of the Son of man.
BBE

The proof is in the seeing. All will see Jesus when he returns His sign will appear in the heavens. A fact which history makes clear and preterism skips over..No one saw it

The minute some one say lookthere! or look here! they are lying. no one will have to say look for all will see him at his return.
prophetic
First. Like Dee Dee said. The distruction of Jerusalem was seen by the known world at that time, even in the West.

Second. The verb to see does not always mean to physically see. Even in English we say things like, "do you see what I mean". Without meaning to physically see.

For example, I was explaining somthing to a co-worker, she was having a hard time understanding what I was meaning. I explained it one more time, she said, "Oh, I see now". This co-worker was also completle blind.

Do you see my piont?

If this is the best thing you have to refute preterism, then you might as well quit now, while your not that far behind.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

yes you were very nice.
What I meant by soon is that it could happen within the next few years for all we know. There are maybe a few prophecies left, but these are certainly the last days.
So, now I know I am not a futurist, good. And I do believe Jesus is God.

I just don't know about the rest though. I think that the good servants would be surprized also, since the good and bad are mixed..
If the good servants are mixed with the bad, and will be surprised at the masters return, how can any one know when the master is coming?

Yet, you (and many other's) say that they believe that the "rapture" will take place soon. An until about three years ago I believed the same thing.

How, can you know?

Of course, I don't believe that the good servants were to be surprised. Here is the text in question (emphasis added):



Matthew 24:

48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT%2B24&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=ESV&x=11&y=8#footnote_145809922_4)] and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Here the focus is on that servant, i.e. the wicked one. Because it is the wicked servant who is "cut to pieces". It is the wicked servant who is unprepared.


1 Thess. 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These verses above mention believers going up..

blah i'm tired
I agree here. This is talking about a resurrection of the dead and living believers. I also agree that this is a yet future event. Where we disagree is that this event is the same one described in Mt. 24. No where in Mt. 24 does it say that anyone will be "raptured". This passage talks about the "Great Tribulation" which preterist believe happened in AD70.

The I Thes. passage does not mention anything about a "Great Tribulation".

The question is, "Why do so many people tie these two passages into one event (or at least two concurrent events)? And remember I used to think the same way.


Just my :2cents:


BTW. Are you sure you have never done this before? Your response was quite intelligent and appropriate. Keep up the good work.

I look forward to hearing your reply soon. (That's preterist soon not futurist soon :wink:)

[John Reece]

If this is the best thing you have to refute preterism, then you might as well quit now, while your not that far behind.

:smile:

[ratioann]

Just got off work. :brood: Arg...

Yeah, I have sorta done this before on other boards, but I am more of a spammer, large blocks of text frighten me.

I don't really know why other people group these texts together, but I imagine that it's because they sound similar at first glance. I may have done it myself, I know I've done before... Perhaps I erred & got myself turned backwards, but it doesn't change what I believe...for now. :wink:

1 Thess 4:17 is the rapture one, arg. Just when I was doing so well.. :blush:

If the good servants are mixed with the bad, and will be surprised at the masters return, how can any one know when the master is coming?

Yet, you (and many other's) say that they believe that the "rapture" will take place soon. An until about three years ago I believed the same thing.

How, can you know?


Well, just because I think it will take place soon doesn't mean I know when, just that it is soon. I know I am going to bed soon (very soon), but I don't know what my clock will say when I hit the hay.
And on that note, I'm going to bed. I hope to pick this up later..perhaps with better verses. :smile:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

I don't really know why other people group these texts together, but I imagine that it's because they sound similar at first glance. I may have done it myself, I know I've done before... Perhaps I erred & got myself turned backwards, but it doesn't change what I believe...for now.







I should hope not. It took me months of searching and study to give up my cherished beliefs. To be honest, I wouldn't think much of you if you gave up your beliefs this easily. (and for knowing you so shortly, I already think highly of you. :thumb:)









Well, just because I think it will take place soon doesn't mean I know when, just that it is soon. I know I am going to bed soon (very soon), but I don't know what my clock will say when I hit the hay.

And on that note, I'm going to bed. I hope to pick this up later. perhaps with better verses.



Exactly!!!!!!



The same way it is with the good servants. You know the signs that indicate when you will soon be going to bed.



Jesus gave us signs as to when the tribulation will happen. That is why many futurist today say that the trib is coming soon. They think they see the signs. Of course IMHO they miss the most important sign "This generation shall not pass, til all this is complete" (Faramir paraphrase :wink:)



Just like you, know the sign of your impending slumber, the "good servants" (1st Century Jews) who listened to their master (Jesus) knew that the tribulation was coming soon and got out of Jerusalem. They did not know the exact date, but they new it was soon.



In Luke’s version of the Olivet Discourse (the parallel passage to Mt. 24) he says something to this effect. "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you know it is time to flee to the hills."(Faramr paraphrase again I'm at work and don't have time to look it up, but I will try to get back to this and post the exact quote and site.)



Well, that is exactly what happened. The Roman armies briefly surrounded Jerusalem. Then left. The Jews (wicked servants) thought that this was a great sign of a Victory from God. Except for the Christian Jews(good servants). They had listened to their master say "When Jerusalem is surrounded by armies...." and new it was time to get the heck out of Jerusalem. Which they did!



It was a good thing they did, too. The Roman army returned with a much bigger force and devastated the city and destroyed the temple (just like Jesus predicted). Josephus said that 1,000,000 Jews died during this period.



While it is true that the "Good Servants" did not know the exact date that Jesus was “coming” in judgment. They knew it was soon enough that they had better not hand around anymore.


Any questions?

[prophetic]

Man...I cannot believe the ignorance that seems to perpetuate itself in some of the posted replies to this thread. Have any of you folks actually read the bible?...
Two points as examples..one person tells me that the destruction of Jerusalem was seen . True!..but my point is tha Jesus's return is what will be seen.
Second example: One reply to this post tells me that damning preterism to the abyss is to call preterists herticks! hey ..glad you picked up on that...But understand preterism is not as you say just a different endtime view..It denies the Gospel...Anyone who is teaching the resurrection has already occurred and that it is not Bodily is a heretic preaching another gospel..that simple.

read a bible..get a clue

[dizzle]

Man...I cannot believe the ignorance that seems to perpetuate itself in some of the posted replies to this thread. Have any of you folks actually read the bible?...

and that kind of sarcasm is supposed to be prompt what kind of response? Do you really think that is the right way to have a dialog between brethren?



Two points as examples..one person tells me that the destruction of Jerusalem was seen . True!..but my point is tha Jesus's return is what will be seen.

That begs the question of the nature of His "return" now doesn't it? You cannot simply assume a point and then point to your assumptions as proof and go "lalalalalalala". Now, would you like to actually dig into this passage some more instead of slinging sound bites?



Second example: One reply to this post tells me that damning preterism to the abyss is to call preterists herticks! hey ..glad you picked up on that...But understand preterism is not as you say just a different endtime view..It denies the Gospel...Anyone who is teaching the resurrection has already occurred and that it is not Bodily is a heretic preaching another gospel..that simple.

Wow, take a deep breath. I AGREE WITH YOU!!!! You unfortunately have been hoodwinked into believing that a very vocal and recent band of heretics speak for what is called preterism. They don't. Would you like to know how I feel about such heresy?

Read this: www.tektonics.org/hythere.html

Maybe after that you can come back and treat the ORTHODOX preterists here wiht a bit more brotherly love. None of us in this area deny the FUTURE BODILY resurrection.

If you read the forum guidelines beforeposting in this section you would have seen that such heresy is not allowed to be posted in this section. This is a classic example of when one is new to a forum, one should learn the lay of the land and get to know what posters really believe before making assumptions that turn out to be embarassingly incorrect.



read a bible..get a clue

:no:

[studyhound]

Man...I cannot believe the ignorance that seems to perpetuate itself in some of the posted replies to this thread. Have any of you folks actually read the bible?...
Two points as examples..one person tells me that the destruction of Jerusalem was seen . True!..but my point is tha Jesus's return is what will be seen.
Second example: One reply to this post tells me that damning preterism to the abyss is to call preterists herticks! hey ..glad you picked up on that...But understand preterism is not as you say just a different endtime view..It denies the Gospel...Anyone who is teaching the resurrection has already occurred and that it is not Bodily is a heretic preaching another gospel..that simple.

read a bible..get a clue
Wow didnt see that coming, ya right. :ahem:

[prophetic]

This will be my final post here. remove me and any evidence I was ever here..none of you are interested in truth ..just the sound of your intellects rusting shut. This is nothing but a past time for people who have missed the point of the true Gospel...the bible is nothing to you but fodder for your inane and useless debates. I feel bad for you. The Bible and its truth is more to me than just a subject to build a club around. I shared the biblical truth to help and all you can do is strain at gnats and swallow camels.
stick a fork in me I'm done
prophetic

[dizzle]

In another words, we challenged you and you didn't like it as you see yourself as the sole vessel of truth. Gotcha.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Man...I cannot believe the ignorance that seems to perpetuate itself in some of the posted replies to this thread. Have any of you folks actually read the bible?...
Two points as examples..one person tells me that the destruction of Jerusalem was seen . True!..but my point is tha Jesus's return is what will be seen.

Hello. We are comparing apples to oranges here. Pretest say that the destruction of Jerusalem is what Jesus is talking about when He says He is "coming on the clouds". Didn't you read the posts (as opposed to merely reacting to them)?



Cities being destroyed as a result of God's judgement are referred to numerous time in the OT as "God Coming" or even "God coming in a cloud".



the is my point. Which you obviously didn't get.



Second example: One reply to this post tells me that damning preterism to the abyss is to call preterists herticks! hey ..glad you picked up on that...But understand preterism is not as you say just a different endtime view..It denies the Gospel...Anyone who is teaching the resurrection has already occurred and that it is not Bodily is a heretic preaching another gospel..that simple.



read a bible..get a clue





Like Dee Dee said, we agree with you, "Anyone who is teaching the resurrection has already occurred and that it is not Bodily is a heretic preaching another gospel. that simple."



Amen on that point brother. Didn't I say as much in earlier in this post in this very thread?





OK. I little back ground on the preterist position. [snip]


We believe that most, in fact nearly all of the prophecies of the OT and the NT have been fulfilled. This includes the "Great Tribulation", which some preterist say began in AD 63 and all (or nearly all) agree culminated in AD 70 (seven years ) with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

We believe that the only future events are the resurrection of all (for the sake of analogy the "rapture") The final judgment, and the New Heavens and the New Earth. (Other preterist did I leave anything off?)

That is a summary of the preterist position in nutshell.

This should in no way be confused with hyper preterism or neohymenaenism (sp?) which is the heretical belief that all prophecies have been fulfilled, including the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgment.



Now maybe I did not make myself as clear as I should have, and if not I apologize.



But we orthodox preterist do believe in the future bodily resurrection of the dead, and do believe in a future physical return of Jesus.



Let me repeat myself:



This [orthodox preterism] should in no way be confused with hyper preterism or neohymenaenism (sp?) which is the heretical belief that all prophecies have been fulfilled, including the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgment.



Read the post of those you criticize...get a clue.



I have no problem with people disagreeing with what I say. Remember I used to be a futurist too. What I do have a problem with is people attacking what they don’t understand. If you had really read my post, you would have known that we actually agree on the heretical nature of neohymenaenism (the denial of the future physical return of Christ, and the future bodily resurrection). And if you had read the guidelines to this forum, you would have known that that kind of argument is not welcomed here in eschatology, since it is heretical. As a moderator in this forum, I have removed more than one post advocating a hyper preterist position.

If you want to say that the orthodox preterist on the board are heretical, because we believe that the tribulation has already happened, that is your prerogative. (You’d be wrong IMHO, but you have the prerogative to be wrong :grin:. I know, I used to be a futurist :argh:)

But please, please, please :pray:, do not label us as the same group who are heretical in their beliefs, those who deny the future return of Christ, and the future physical resurrection. :barf: I would rather be labeled a futurist :eww:than a hyper preterist. Although futurist are wrong (IMHO :teeth:), they are not heretical.

Just my :2cents:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

and that kind of sarcasm is supposed to be prompt what kind of response? Do you really think that is the right way to have a dialog between brethren?



That begs the question of the nature of His "return" now doesn't it? You cannot simply assume a point and then point to your assumptions as proof and go "lalalalalalala". Now, would you like to actually dig into this passage some more instead of slinging sound bites?



Wow, take a deep breath. I AGREE WITH YOU!!!! You unfortunately have been hoodwinked into believing that a very vocal and recent band of heretics speak for what is called preterism. They don't. Would you like to know how I feel about such heresy?

Read this: www.tektonics.org/hythere.html (http://www.tektonics.org/hythere.html)

Maybe after that you can come back and treat the ORTHODOX preterists here wiht a bit more brotherly love. None of us in this area deny the FUTURE BODILY resurrection.

If you read the forum guidelines beforeposting in this section you would have seen that such heresy is not allowed to be posted in this section. This is a classic example of when one is new to a forum, one should learn the lay of the land and get to know what posters really believe before making assumptions that turn out to be embarassingly incorrect.





:no:
Dee Dee:

I think I see a purple cow
I hoped I'd never see one
But I can tell this right now
I'd rather see one, than be one.

:teeth:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

This will be my final post here. remove me and any evidence I was ever here..none of you are interested in truth ..just the sound of your intellects rusting shut. This is nothing but a past time for people who have missed the point of the true Gospel...the bible is nothing to you but fodder for your inane and useless debates. I feel bad for you. The Bible and its truth is more to me than just a subject to build a club around. I shared the biblical truth to help and all you can do is strain at gnats and swallow camels.
stick a fork in me I'm done
propheticWow. For someone who is "here to help", you sure gave up in a hurry.

Of course you did try to defend your faith, "in gentleness and love" as the bible comands. So I guess you did you job.

I think Dee Dee hit the nail on the head :bonk: when she said:

In another words, we challenged you and you didn't like it as you see yourself as the sole vessel of truth. Gotcha.:whip::ddw: :faramir: :grin:

[Lee1023]

Wow, I am new to this forum page and it seems pretty heated. It is amazing to me that people throw out the term "heretic" in reference to people who don't believe in a "rapture" in the future. It amazes me becuase the belief of a literal rapture is only about 150-200 years old. Prior to that time the belief was not held among the vast majority of Christian leaders. The greatest proponents of a literal rapture was Scholfield and Darby. Darby reported that most of their theological teachings on the rapture came from a Middle Ages Monk named Iberius (SP?), who made it clear that his teachings about the rapture were preached for the purpose of stopping the growth of the Protestant movement.

Also if you study the Greek word for rapture in the New Testament you will see it means to be caught up or seized. This is the same word that Peter used when he said "I know a man, whether in the body or not I do not know, that was caught up (same word for "rapture") into the third Heaven." He was referring to an experience he himself had. He did not go anywhere but he was caught up in, or "raptured" into the third Heaven. Let me give you an example: If my young son was in the living room engrossed in a television program and I asked him something but he didn't respond, I could say he is caught up in the program on the television. I pray that as a believer you are caught up in Christ, and that you are reigning in life right now. Paul made it clear that we are seated in hevenlies at the right hand of the Father with Chrsit Jesus. How could that be the case if we have to be "raptured" there in the future.

Also, take Jesus' prayer for his disciples in John 14. he states that the Father not take them out of the world but keep them safe from the evil one and send them into the world as he had sent him. Some people might say this refers only to the disciples, but Jesus makes it clear that is not the case by saying that he is praying this particular prayer not just for the disciples but for everyone who believes upon their testimony. That includes me, because I have believed upon the testimony of the disiples. Did Jesus, as the scriptures say, only do and say what he heard and saw the Fatehr do? If so then his prayers were true as spoken. If that is so, then those who believe are not "taken out of the world."

Also, if you study the word for "coming: as refered to in the "coming of Jesus," you will find it means "presence" and has nothing to do with coming from one place to another. It is like us talking about the rising of the sun, it is always there but it becomes more an more visible.

I believe in the Trinity, One God with Three distinct aspects. When I was born again and filled with the Holy Spirit, God took up residence in me. He is with me here, not somewhere else, or the Holy Spirit is not God, or Jesus lied when he said "I will never leave you nor forsake you." God said he will never again live in temples made of stones but we will be his temple. There is a distinct Greek word for "temple" that means a "fleshly temple," and that is where God lives.......in believers. Paul was VERY studied in Greeek and knew what words to use, and he talked about us being the "fleshly temple" of God. This is the work for temple that he used when he talks about the "man of sin" (usually refered to as the anti-christ) setting himself up on the "temple" claiming himself to be God.

[dizzle]

Lee it isn't usually that heated. Welcome to the forum BTW.

[themuzicman]

What do preterists do with Matt 24:31, then?

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

What do preterists do with Matt 24:31, then?



We read it. :lmbo:



And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ESV




Can't speak for every preterist, but here is how I see that verse.



As I am sure you know, the Greek word translated angel actually means messenger, which is how it should be translated here. These messengers are Christian's under the new covenant, that have been and continue to spread the Gospel. I.E. "gathering his elect". This is a continuous process that began, "immediately after these things" ref. v. 30, and is still on going, and will continue until "all enemies are placed under his feet"



Any other preterist input on this verse?





Oh, and for those of you who havn't noticed, Muz is now a moderator here in eschatology. Let's make sure to make my good friend :mm: feel welcome.

Welcome to eschatology Muz.

[dizzle]

Muz, I don't have time to do it justice now but it will certainly be dealt with in my Tennis Court thread going through Matthew 24 verse by verse.

[ratioann]

Okay, I'm back in here.

My pastor says that amill. & post mill. views are faulty because they teach that the world will get better and better, until Jesus come back. I am not to well prepared, so I have no verses with me, but doesn't the bible teach the world will get worse? Kinda like the people in Noahs day before the flood. But one of the reasons I believe that the trib. is coming (soon :smile:) is because the world is getting worse. I don't know if all preterists hold the same mill. view, or if it is called another title I don know. Just a bit curious. I have another question, but I actually wasnt to put some real time into it.

[dizzle]

Ann, I have to answer your question with a question. What passages teach that the world is going to get worse and worse?

[ratioann]

Ann, I have to answer your question with a question. What passages teach that the world is going to get worse and worse?

Mar 13:7,8 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.

2Ti 3:1-3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Matthew 24:8, Luke 21:25-26, 2Pe 3:3-4

Ack, I think I went over board.

[dizzle]

Thanks Ratioann, I am going to ask some leading questions though to get to what I want to demonstrate though okay?

What makes you believe that those verses were not just referring to that time?

For example, one of them, Mark 13 is explicitly said by Jesus to be referring to a time when the generation that then lived would not die.

Let me ask you this: If the "last days" were in fact the last days of the Old Covenant order and ended inthe first century, is there ANY Scriptural proof that the world is supposed to get worse?

[ratioann]

Thanks Ratioann, I am going to ask some leading questions though to get to what I want to demonstrate though okay?

Alrighty :smile:


What makes you believe that those verses were not just referring to that time?

Some of them may be for that time (maybe a double fufillment or something). But I think they speak more of today, because if they (back then) tried any of the stuff we have going on today, they'd be stoned on the spot. Whatever evil they had going was more likely in secret. Today it's in the open, which would make it more useful as a sign, perhaps.


For example, one of them, Mark 13 is explicitly said by Jesus to be referring to a time when the generation that then lived would not die.

Mar 13:7,8 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.

Well, my beliefs kinda differ here, but thats later in the chapter. There have been wars, earthquakes, famines, etc. for a very long time. But nothing like today. What makes these verses stick out for me, is earthquakes, we have massive earthquakes in our day. Just like contractions get closer (& worse?) for a woman about to give birth. Also it says those signs are just the 'beginning of sorrows', which kind of makes it sound like it's going to happen for quite awhile.


Let me ask you this: If the "last days" were in fact the last days of the Old Covenant order and ended inthe first century, is there ANY Scriptural proof that the world is supposed to get worse?

I don't know? :smile: Well..hmm..IF the last days ended in the 1st century, then why would there be scriptures pointing to more last days now? :blush:

[ilkhani'tus]

Can anyone then answer what that "mark" thing is supposed to be about...where everyone is supposed to get it in order to be able to buy and sell as instituted by the "beast" of the "tribulation"?

Has that ever happened yet?

[dizzle]

Yes.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Can anyone then answer what that "mark" thing is supposed to be about...where everyone is supposed to get it in order to be able to buy and sell as instituted by the "beast" of the "tribulation"?



Has that ever happened yet?



Like Dee Dee said, yes.



At least that is the preterist position.



Long answer is, it depends on who you ask.



Now, [Moderator hat on] ilkhani'tus, that is a very good question, and I would love to discuss it with you, however, I noticed that your signature links to WinAce's forum, which is non-theist in nature. I also checked some of your other post, and I assume that you are a non-theist (though you have not identified yourself as such if I am incorrect let me know). This forum is specifically for discussion among orthodox Christians about eschatology. If you, as a non-theist wish to discuss eschatological matters with us Christians then the appropriate forum is Apologetics 301. Again, not trying to discourage you from discussing this matter, just directing you to the appropriate forum. In fact, I hope you would like to discuss this further and start a thread in Apologetics 301, or if you would like, I could start the thread there. This would not be the first time that theist and non-theist discussed eschatology there either. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. [Moderator hat off]



Also, good luck with the ferret. :thumb:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Thanks Ratioann, I am going to ask some leading questions though to get to what I want to demonstrate though okay?



Alrighty



:hi: ratioann (or may we call you Ann?) Good to see back participating in this thread.



What makes you believe that those verses were not just referring to that time?



Some of them may be for that time (maybe a double fulfillment or something). But I think they speak more of today, because if they (back then) tried any of the stuff we have going on today, they'd be stoned on the spot. Whatever evil they had going was more likely in secret. Today it's in the open, which would make it more useful as a sign, perhaps.



I will admit that there is plenty of evil in the world today. But what makes you think it was so much better back then? True, some sins were "in secret", in Judea, a small province of the Roman Empire. But what about the rest of the world?



Ever see the Movie Gladiator. People being killed as entertainment? :eww: As morally reprehensible as I find "Survivor" and all the other "reality" shows that pass as entertainment today, I believe it pales in comparison to the evil that took place in the gladiatorial games.



And it is true that our society is very promiscuous sexually. But do we have Temples where prostitution is practiced as a form of worship (egad) like they did in Ephesus and Corinth? And lets not forget that many ancient culture not only found homosexual sex permissible, but expected, even for heterosexual men (even boys :barf: ).



We see things as so bad today, because that is all we see. Good news does not sell newspapers.



And speaking of newspapers, should we really use newspapers to interpret scriptures? Saying things like, “Well things are really bad these days, so this must be the horrible things predicted in the bible? Or should we let the scripture speak for itself?



Now I know that that may seem like a harsh question or even a harsh criticism, but it is not meant that way. Remember, I was not always a preterist, I used to do “newspaper exegesis”. When the first gulf war broke out, I was sure that Sadam was the antichrist, and the rapture would take place any moment. After all, he was from the same area as Babylon. I was letting the “newspaper” tell me how to interpret scripture. So many people still do that today. So before we look at the world and say this is what scripture said would happen. Lets look at the scripture to see what it says about when these things are to take place.



I already mention a few verses earlier in this tread:







1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" ……33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Emphasis added



NT scripture is full of text claiming that “the end is near”. See my previous post in this thread for further examples.



IMHO, if we let scripture speak for itself it is abundantly clear that the “tribulation” and the “last days” were 1st century events. So the question should be, “when does the scripture say these events should take place”? If, the scriptures indicates an event that is far in the future (from the perspective of the writer) then we can look at the newspapers as say, “this is prophecy being fulfilled”.



I say all that to say this: Where in the scripture does it indicate that these things (i.e. the “great tribulation” ) are in the distant future from the writer’s perspective?



I’ve already provided scripture that I think indicates that the “great tribulation” was a first century event.





For example, one of them, Mark 13 is explicitly said by Jesus to be referring to a time when the generation that then lived would not die.




Mar 13:7,8 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.



Well, my beliefs kinda differ here, but thats later in the chapter. There have been wars, earthquakes, famines, etc. for a very long time. But nothing like today. What makes these verses stick out for me, is earthquakes, we have massive earthquakes in our day. Just like contractions get closer (& worse?) for a woman about to give birth. Also it says those signs are just the 'beginning of sorrows', which kind of makes it sound like it's going to happen for quite awhile.



I agree, there have always been these things, wars, earthquakes and famines. In fact the only time that these events would be a reliable sign of anything is a events occurring in a time following their absence. Right?



Ever here of the Pax Roman or “Roman Peace”? It was a period of peace brought about by the might of the Roman Empire (no one would dare fight them). For nearly a hundred years there had been no war of any significance in the Palestinian region. Around AD 65 this began to change (don’t have the exact date handy, but can look it up if you like), but AD 70 the city of Jerusalem had been destroyed. With war, especially in ancient time, comes famine. There were also an unusually large number of earthquakes in “diverse” areas of the Roman Empire between AD 30 (the resurrection) and AD 70 (the destruction of Jerusalem). I can look up the dates and places if you like, but you will have to take my word for now. :smile:





Let me ask you this: If the "last days" were in fact the last days of the Old Covenant order and ended in the first century, is there ANY Scriptural proof that the world is supposed to get worse?



I don't know? Well..hmm..IF the last days ended in the 1st century, then why would there be scriptures pointing to more last days now?

Exactly. :grin: I think that you just made Dee Dee’s point. There are no scriptures pointing to more last days now. At least not according to the preterist interpretation.

So the question is where in scripture does it say that the “tribulation” or “last days” are in the far distant future from the perspective of the writers?

And this question is to all futurist, not just ratioann. Muz? Jaltus? Beuler? Anyone?

[ratioann]

:hi: ratioann (or may we call you Ann?) Good to see back participating in this thread.


Either is just fine.

I will admit that there is plenty of evil in the world today. But what makes you think it was so much better back then? True, some sins were "in secret", in Judea, a small province of the Roman Empire. But what about the rest of the world?


Well, we are not done yet. I've been told too many times that history repeats itself. Wouldn't another Hitler with todays technology just be swell. :brood:


Ever see the Movie Gladiator. People being killed as entertainment? :eww: As morally reprehensible as I find "Survivor" and all the other "reality" shows that pass as entertainment today, I believe it pales in comparison to the evil that took place in the gladiatorial games.

And it is true that our society is very promiscuous sexually. But do we have Temples where prostitution is practiced as a form of worship (egad) like they did in Ephesus and Corinth? And lets not forget that many ancient culture not only found homosexual sex permissible, but expected, even for heterosexual men (even boys :barf: ).

Yeah, I saw Gladiator.
Temples with promiscuous sexually? We just might have those, probably not in America...yet.

I know we shouldn't just use the news, and I try not too.. A lot of what goes on today just fits so well though.


Ever here of the Pax Roman or “Roman Peace”? It was a period of peace brought about by the might of the Roman Empire (no one would dare fight them). For nearly a hundred years there had been no war of any significance in the Palestinian region. Around AD 65 this began to change (don’t have the exact date handy, but can look it up if you like), but AD 70 the city of Jerusalem had been destroyed. With war, especially in ancient time, comes famine. There were also an unusually large number of earthquakes in “diverse” areas of the Roman Empire between AD 30 (the resurrection) and AD 70 (the destruction of Jerusalem). I can look up the dates and places if you like, but you will have to take my word for now. :smile:

No, I have never heard of that. No thank you for the dates & places, I'll just take your word for it.


Exactly. :grin: I think that you just made Dee Dee’s point. There are no scriptures pointing to more last days now. At least not according to the preterist interpretation.

So the question is where in scripture does it say that the “tribulation” or “last days” are in the far distant future from the perspective of the writers?



I new when I wrote that I wasn't doing myself a favor, but oh well, that's my answer. :blush: I suppose there are no scripture (that I know of) that put the last days in far future of the writers. But now, if that be true, where are we now? Can't still be the last days.. Jesus reigns during the Millenium, and Satan is supposedly locked up... I'm lost.

[Lee1023]

John made it clear when he said "these are the last days (end times).



The destruction of the temple was the "end times" for the old covenant. We live in the New Coventant, or the "8th" day which is the Hebrew # for New beginning."



Alos, I agree that Jesus himself made it abundently clear when he said that some standing there would not taste death until all he spoke had come to pass. Are any of those people still living?

Great discussion,

Lee1023

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

I new when I wrote that I wasn't doing myself a favor, but oh well, that's my answer. :blush: I suppose there are no scripture (that I know of) that put the last days in far future of the writers. But now, if that be true, where are we now? Can't still be the last days.. Jesus reigns during the Millenium, and Satan is supposedly locked up... I'm lost.Good questions Ann. I have some good (IMHO) answers. But I don't have time to answer them now. I do plan to get back to you though. (Unless Dee Dee or some other preterist *cough*Study Hound *cough* wants to go ahead and answer)

[studyhound]

I am working on it but between working double shifts and my peice of junk computer (my nice laptop is down for who knows how long) and other Tweb pojects I am swamped.

Anne if you could please ask a very specfic question about were we are. cause I started to write a responce and got a Dee Dee size post.

Farimar: come slacker :grin:

[ratioann]

I just got off work myself, I'm sleepy.

I know all preterists probably don't all hold the exact same views, so I'm not quite sure how much good asking will do. I know we're not going through the trib right now and I know Jesus has not returned. I think that (most?) preterists believe this is the millenium, but I dont see how.. I've read some other responses from other threads, so I don't think we need to get into that.. I don't know.. If this wasn't the millenium, what would this block of time we are in be called? I can't think of another period of time mentioned myself..

I will come back tomorrow.. err, this morning. Maybe I will have thunk of sumthin' good then.
g'night.

[Ted]

ratioann,

Let us consider your statement that:
I don't what your beliefs are, but I believe that have confused the glorious appearing with the rapture. I've done myself before, just have to read carefully.

Let us also follow your advice and read carefully. 2 Thessalonians 2 begins with:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him,

I don’t think that anyone will seriously question that Paul is speaking of the rapture of the saints. After all, he is writing to the “church” in Thessalonica (2 Thes 1:1). With that established, let us read the rest of this sentence:
2 Thessalonians 2:2 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Notice carefully what Paul has just said. The rapture of the saints comes on the Day of the Lord. If we follow that term through scripture, we will discover that it is the day on which God rescues his people and destroys his enemies. Notice that I said “destroy.” On the Day of the Lord, the saints will be rescued and the wicked will be killed. But I digress. Now we continue listening to Paul:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

The “man of lawlessness” is widely accepted as a description of antichrist. And Paul says that the antichrist must come before the rapture of the saints. But to make things particularly interesting for us, Paul says that the antichrist was present in his day. He is already at work (v. 7).

Considering that antichrist was present in the first century AD, and we are in the twenty-first, it must be clear that antichrist is not a single person. No human lives that long. Even though Paul uses “man of lawlessness” to describe antichrist, he cannot be referring to a single person. Instead, he is using the Jewish concept of corporate identity to describe a system or corporate body of lawlessness by using “man.” But again I digress.

This same conclusion can be reached by looking in 1 Thessalonians as our first poster did. If you start in 1 Thes 4:13 and read through 5:2, it will be very clear that the rapture (clearly identified in 4:13-17) is the Day of the Lord. Paul uses the two terms synonymously.

Put bluntly, there is no rapture before the tribulation and the Day of the Lord. Space has not allowed a development of it, but there is no seen-year great tribulation either. We are in the tribulation now, and it began at Pentecost.

Let me set you a challenge. Look through the Bible and show us any text that clearly identifies the removal of the saints before the tribulation. If that is a true doctrine, it should be easy. Further, find any text that clearly states that the saints will be raptured silently. That should also be easy.

[ratioann]

So there is no seven year trib? at all? What about the seventieth 'week'? Or is that something else completely? I don't think I have heard many people say we are in the trib now..Your a preterist too right?

Anyways..
A verse for rapture before trib..
the church in Philadelphia
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
There is no way this church could have actually live to the day of the Lord. I have read somewhere this church was destroyed... but I don't remember where. Of course if we are in the trib now...I don't know what this means.

As for secret rapture, I can't think of any that haven't been used repeated already. At work we have a lot of spare time, and I have been making a little chart for myself on the rapture and glorious appearing verses. So far most verses fall into 'possibly same thing' box. I have found this to be very irritating.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

So there is no seven year trib? at all? What about the seventieth 'week'? Or is that something else completely? I don't think I have heard many people say we are in the trib now..Your a preterist too right? Two different animals. 70th week is not the same thing as the trib, and IMHO there is nothing in scripture that indicates that it is.

Revelation does speak several time of a 3 1/2 year period that I think could be the "great tribulation" (which is past). LeHaye ect. try to say combine two mentionings of this three and half year period into one seven year period to correspond to the 70th week of Daniel. Nowhere in Rev. does it mention a single 7 year period.

Daniel's 70th week, IMHO and that of many (maybe even most) preterist, began with the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist 3 1/2 years later was when He (Jesus) made a covenant with the many and put and end to all sacrifice i.e. his own sacrifice on the cross. (His sacrifice was all that was needed, and the physical sacrifices were not stopped at this time, but they were no longer the means for atonement).

The last 3 1/2 years was a period, after the resurection, when the primary focus of evangelism was on the Jews. However, with the stoning of Stephen (the first Christian marter) at the hands of the Jewis leadership, the Jews had declared thire full enmity with God and his convential Messiah (see my post in the question for preterist thread for more detailed information here. ) (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21897)IOW there is no gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. Becasue there is no scriptural evidence to indicate that there should be.

Anyways..
A verse for rapture before trib..
the church in Philadelphia
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
There is no way this church could have actually live to the day of the Lord. I have read somewhere this church was destroyed... but I don't remember where. Of course if we are in the trib now...I don't know what this means. Well if the day of Lord happened in AD 70 and Revelation was written in AD 67 or so (which I believe it was), then there is no problem (in fact one reason I became a preterist is because it gets rid of so many problems :wink: ). And I believe that the "tribulation" is past.

As for secret rapture, I can't think of any that haven't been used repeated already. At work we have a lot of spare time, and I have been making a little chart for myself on the rapture and glorious appearing verses. So far most verses fall into 'possibly same thing' box. I have found this to be very irritating. Not sure what you are talking about here, but I would like to see this chart when you are finsihed if you don't mind.

Later:

:sig:

P.S. Ann, remember that Ted is not a preterist, so his views are not always reflective of the preterist position.

[ratioann]

Oh I thought he was..
ack, too many views
I 'm going to work.

[dizzle]

Ted is not a preterist

[Daniel927]

Okay,

This thread, in spite of its' inactivity, is allowing me to post, so HERE I GO!

The 70th week of Daniel, is found in the "last" full week of Christ, Triumphal entry to resurrection! Of course that sounds crazy, but it is.

You are correct, there is NO GAP between week 69 and 70! Sir Robert Anderson calculated that from the time of the decree to rebuild and the triumphal entry, was precisely 69 weeks (of seven years each). To the exact day. Remember now, there is NO GAP between 69 and 70.

Shabua's - "weeks" - means SEVENED! Whatever the "unit" or "measure" is, it is "sevened". Christ entered the temple (house) on the 10th, he was crucified on the 14th, AND arose on the 17th! From the 10th to the 17th, IS SEVEN DAYS - OR - ONE SHABUA!

The 69th was complete with his triumphal entry! With the onset of evening, it began a new day, and a new week, the 70th!

This isn't made up, it all right there in the gospels! It isn't in "code" either, it's plainly written.

The "great trib" where he said there was nothing like it prior to that time AND never would be anything like it after - WAS - His Crucifixion.

You are correct about his crucifixion being in the middle of the week, but not in the aspect that you refer to it as 3 1/2 years. He was standing in the temple Sunday evening, which began the "last week", and he was standing in front of Pilate Thursday morning, with the rising of the sun.

That's exactly 3 1/2 DAYS, the "middle" of the "week" (shabua). It then allows for the "sacrifice and oblation to cease", in the midst of the week.

Christ "coming" in the clouds and all the races (tribes?) of the earth seeing (mourning) him, is the time of His ascension into the kingdom when he is set upon His throne. This is the resurrection that occurred at that time!

The temple was not destroyed in 70 A.D., it was destroyed on crucifixion day! Gotcha! From that day on, it was no longer the "temple", "...for you are the "temple" of the living God".

As for the "great trib" in Rev. 7, that is the "trib" that all believers endure, since the time of Christ. They are an innumerable number, which if this "trib" group were ONLY from a 7 or 3 1/2 years "trib", there would be no difficulty in numbering them! Think about it! NOW attempt to number the believers, that have been redeemed, from the time of Christ to present! Innumerable!!!!!!

Christ ONLY had a three year ministry, not 3 1/2 years! Look at chapter 2 in John, "...this was the BEGINNING of miracles (his ministry)...he went down to Capernaum and continued there not many days. 13: And the Jews passover was at hand.

Seems like his ministry began right around passover AND it certainly ENDED at passover. That's three years, anyway you look at it! There is no scripture that indicates that Christs' ministry BEGAN with his baptism! NONE!

Bless

D