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apostoli
05-25-2014, 07:02 AM
Does YHWH at Ex 25:18 contradict his commandment at Ex 20:4. If not, why not? (Of course he is God and can do whatever he wants, but ordering something to be done that he has explicitly ordered not to be done seems something of a contradiction).

Your enlightened comments would be most welcome...

foudroyant
05-25-2014, 07:53 AM
You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. (Exodus 25:18, NASB)




They aren't to be made in order to be worshiped:

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me (Exodus 24:4-5, NASB)

Truthseeker
05-25-2014, 01:08 PM
The winged creatures in Exodus 25 are cherubim, which according to Wikipedia are angelic attendants to YHWH. It's possible that they look nothing like what we can observe in the sky, on the earth, or in the water. The ESV Bible has an illustration of the temple that show them in Exodus.

apostoli
05-26-2014, 04:13 AM
You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. (Exodus 25:18, NASB)




They aren't to be made in order to be worshiped:

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me (Exodus 24:4-5, NASB)The NASB gets a lot of flack for its liberal renderings of scripture. The term used at Ex 20:4 is pecel which simply refers to an carved image. Have a read up on the iconoclast controversies that plagued the church at one stage. Also have an investigation of the EOC/ROC's criticism of the RCC for using realism...

apostoli
05-26-2014, 04:25 AM
The winged creatures in Exodus 25 are cherubim, which according to Wikipedia are angelic attendants to YHWH. It's possible that they look nothing like what we can observe in the sky, on the earth, or in the water. The ESV Bible has an illustration of the temple that show them in Exodus.The text says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" I presume the actual cherubim reside in heaven and given your comments Moses' artisans used their imagination in their depictions.

foudroyant makes a good point that "They aren't to be made in order to be worshiped", though I would have said "They weren't intended to be made in order to be worshiped". Taking the assumption that few of the Israelites ever glimpsed the tabernacle, I reflect on what regularly happens in Mecca. The unseen is worshipped, so the tabernacle in effect is an idol. Note that YHWH in numbers 12 declares to Aaron and his wife, that while there are prophets in Israel that he (YHWH) reveals himself in dreams, he (YHWH) speaks directly only to Moses. With all the mystique of the tent and the "invisibility" of the tabernacle, it would be natural for the Israelites to see it as an object of worship...

foudroyant
05-26-2014, 06:01 PM
The NASB gets a lot of flack for its liberal renderings of scripture. The term used at Ex 20:4 is pecel which simply refers to an carved image. Have a read up on the iconoclast controversies that plagued the church at one stage. Also have an investigation of the EOC/ROC's criticism of the RCC for using realism...


Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me (Exodus 20:4-5, KJV).

Keil and Delitzsch: It is not only evident from the context that the allusion is not to the making of images generally, but to the construction of figures of God as objects of religious reverence or worship, but this is expressly stated in Exodus 20:5; so that even Calvin observes, that “there is no necessity to refute what some have foolishly imagined, that sculpture and painting of every kind are condemned here.” With the same aptness he has just before observed, that “although Moses only speaks of idols, there is no doubt that by implication he condemns all the forms of false worship, which men have invented for themselves.”
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/kdo/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown: Under the auspices of Moses himself, figures of cherubim, brazen serpents, oxen, and many other things in the earth beneath, were made and never condemned. The mere making was no sin - it was the making with the intent to give idolatrous worship. (Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible)
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/jfb/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

Whedon: Graven image — That this commandment was not designed to prohibit the productions of sculpture and painting is apparent from the fact that Moses was expressly ordered to construct cherubim for the most holy place of the tabernacle, and to make the brazen serpent in the wilderness. Only idolatrous images, representations of God and designed for worship, are contemplated.
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/whe/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

All these (and there are plenty more) affirm what I wrote in Post #2:

-----> They aren't to be made in order to be worshiped

apostoli
05-27-2014, 01:35 AM
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me (Exodus 20:4-5, KJV).

Keil and Delitzsch: It is not only evident from the context that the allusion is not to the making of images generally, but to the construction of figures of God as objects of religious reverence or worship, but this is expressly stated in Exodus 20:5; so that even Calvin observes, that “there is no necessity to refute what some have foolishly imagined, that sculpture and painting of every kind are condemned here.” With the same aptness he has just before observed, that “although Moses only speaks of idols, there is no doubt that by implication he condemns all the forms of false worship, which men have invented for themselves.”
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/kdo/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown: Under the auspices of Moses himself, figures of cherubim, brazen serpents, oxen, and many other things in the earth beneath, were made and never condemned. The mere making was no sin - it was the making with the intent to give idolatrous worship. (Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible)
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/jfb/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

Whedon: Graven image — That this commandment was not designed to prohibit the productions of sculpture and painting is apparent from the fact that Moses was expressly ordered to construct cherubim for the most holy place of the tabernacle, and to make the brazen serpent in the wilderness. Only idolatrous images, representations of God and designed for worship, are contemplated.
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/whe/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

All these (and there are plenty more) affirm what I wrote in Post #2:

-----> They aren't to be made in order to be worshipedI don't contest any of the observations you present. The fact remains, that though the original intention was not to create a thing to be worshiped, the end result has historically been proven that the thing created became an object of worship to the common people.

Now, if YWHW (God) is omniscient he would have seen such an evolution as evident!

There is a simple solution to this dilemma, let us see if in your flatulence you can arrive at it...

foudroyant
05-27-2014, 01:44 AM
Does YHWH at Ex 25:18 contradict his commandment at Ex 20:4. If not, why not? (Of course he is God and can do whatever he wants, but ordering something to be done that he has explicitly ordered not to be done seems something of a contradiction).


This is what you wrote in the OP.

There is no contradiction because He never commanded the worship of such idols.


Now you are changing course mid-stream and saying that if He is omniscient He would have seen what would have taken place. So don't come here with that smug attitude as if somehow you know and the rest of us are just holding our breath waiting for you to inform us of this great wisdom you have. You think you would have learned recently not to let your stupid pride get the best of you.

Clean up your act.

apostoli
05-27-2014, 03:31 AM
This is what you wrote in the OP.

There is no contradiction because He never commanded the worship of such idols.


Now you are changing course mid-stream and saying that if He is omniscient He would have seen what would have taken place. So don't come here with that smug attitude as if somehow you know and the rest of us are just holding our breath waiting for you to inform us of this great wisdom you have. You think you would have learned recently not to let your stupid pride get the best of you.

Clean up your act.I would suggest you take your own self righteous advice, and go back to inspecting your colon.

I've made a simple enquiry to gauge various protestant attitudes. The text of Ex 25:4 says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:...", now focusing exclusively on the sub-text "Thou shalt not make unto thee ...any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above..." there is a total prohibition on making images of anything in heaven, full stop (according to some protestant denominations). So in some protestant circles you'd be not only considered biblically ignorant but a total heretic...

foudroyant
05-27-2014, 07:23 AM
If it is a "simple enquiry" on your part just read the answers people post and shut up.

Thanks for your misinterpretation of the text....got any sources to back you up?

apostoli
05-27-2014, 08:42 PM
If it is a "simple enquiry" on your part just read the answers people post and shut up.Censorship!!! How marvelouus from someone who demonstrates to be both biblically and socially ignorant. I assume from your posts that you are just some pugnacious child looking for a fight to prove your prowess...I'll simply turn the other cheek and ignore you...


Thanks for your misinterpretation of the text....Given I quoted the text in full and then gave a protestant (iconoclast) understanding, where is the textual misrepresentation. The text says what it says...this is what I said, note the parentheses...

The text of Ex 25:4 says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:...", now focusing exclusively on the sub-text "Thou shalt not make unto thee ...any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above..." there is a total prohibition on making images of anything in heaven, full stop (according to some protestant denominations).

I'm not stating my opinion as anyone with the merest literacy would understand but a common stance amoungst certain protestant groups - usually as an attack on the RCC. I'm RCC so I don't see the protestant viewpoint...


...got any sources to back you up?Sure...lots and lots of protestant iconoclasts attack against the RCC...

foudroyant
05-27-2014, 10:07 PM
You supplied YOUR understanding. Cite other sources.

apostoli
05-28-2014, 02:29 AM
You supplied YOUR understanding. Cite other sources.Read Calvin's Institutes, Book 1, Chapters 10-12.

I trust you accept Calvin as authoritative of protestant opinion (?)

foudroyant
05-28-2014, 04:08 AM
Cite what he wrote since you are appealing to him.

apostoli
05-28-2014, 06:18 AM
Cite what he wrote since you are appealing to him.Read Calvin for yourself! Then you will be informed and can't accuse me of distorting (or selectively quoting) his opinion. The Institutes are available online (as I already told you the relevant section is Book 1, Chapters 10-12 )...

Calvin is very explicit in his opinion - probably why he is reputed as the most severe of the protestant iconoclasts. In short he propounded that anything that is unseen cannot be depicted by man eg: God, cherubim etc etc etc. (actually, he went even further as you will find out if you get off your lazy butt and do some study).

Truthseeker
05-28-2014, 11:24 AM
The text of Ex 25:4 says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:...", now focusing exclusively on the sub-text "Thou shalt not make unto thee ...any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above..." there is a total prohibition on making images of anything in heaven, full stop (according to some protestant denominations). Exodus 25:4? :huh:

"Unto thee" (KJV) or "for yourself" (NCV): I confess uncertainty what difference these words makes, but they must make much difference. I think we have to consider the context. It is about making idols, right? So, making images or representations is OK as long as they are not meant to be idols.

foudroyant
05-28-2014, 03:30 PM
Exodus 25:4? :huh:

"Unto thee" (KJV) or "for yourself" (NCV): I confess uncertainty what difference these words makes, but they must make much difference. I think we have to consider the context. It is about making idols, right? So, making images or representations is OK as long as they are not meant to be idols.

Thank you. I pointed this out twice (Post #2 and Post #6) to apostoli but somehow he just can't get it.

apostoli
05-29-2014, 12:37 AM
Thank you. I pointed this out twice (Post #2 and Post #6) to apostoli but somehow he just can't get it.As Calvin argued copiously: the mere creation of an image inspires people to idolatry irrespective of the originators intention. I'm RCC so I'm not in total agreement with Calvin...However, I do find his viewpoint engaging...

Calvin gives an interesting insight into the Cherubim.

Calvin says in his Institutes "... God sometimes appeared in the form of a man, but this was in anticipation of the future revelation in Christ, and, therefore, did not give the Jews the least pretext for setting up a symbol of Deity under the human form. The mercy-seat, also (Exod. 25:17, 18, 21), where, under the Law, God exhibited the presence of his power, was so framed, as to intimate that God is best seen when the mind rises in admiration above itself: the Cherubim with outstretched wings shaded, and the veil covered it, while the remoteness of the place was in itself a sufficient concealment...For what, pray, did these figures mean, if not that images are unfit to represent the mysteries of God, since they were so formed as to cover the mercy-seat with their wings, thereby concealing the view of God, not only from the eye, but from every human sense, and curbing presumption? To this we may add, that the prophets depict the Seraphim, who are exhibited to us in vision, as having their faces veiled; thus intimating, that the refulgence of the divine glory is so great, that even the angels cannot gaze upon it directly, while the minute beams which sparkle in the face of angels are shrouded from our view. " (I I.11.3)

Calvin in his works tells us that the Cherubims faces and form were concealed by their wings. Thus, imu, this would mean that no "image" of the Cherubim was actually made, merely a concealing form (with function similiar to a curtain)...

foudroyant
05-29-2014, 01:55 AM
Calvin: There is no need of refuting the foolish fancy of some, that all sculptures and pictures are here condemned by Moses, for he had no other object than to rescue God’s glory from all the imaginations which tend to corrupt it. And assuredly it is a most gross indecency to make God like a stock or a stone. Some expound the words, “Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven image, which thou mayest adore;” as if it were allowable to make a visible image of God, provided it be not adored; but the expositions which will follow will easily refute their error. Meanwhile, I do not deny that these things are to be taken connectedly, since superstitious worship is hardly ever separated from the preceding error; for as soon as any one has permitted himself to devise an image of God, he immediately falls into false worship. And surely whosoever reverently and soberly feels and thinks about God Himself, is far from this absurdity; nor does any desire or presumption to metamorphose God ever creep in, except when coarse and carnal imaginations occupy our minds. Hence it comes to pass, that those, who frame for themselves gods of corruptible materials, superstitiously adore the work of their own hands. I will then readily allow these two things, which are inseparable, to be joined together; only let us recollect that God is insulted, not only when His worship is transferred to idols, but when we try to represent Him by any outward similitude.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

Calvin teaches that all pictures and sculptures are not condemned (first sentence) and that making an idol would inevitably lead to worshiping it.

apostoli
05-29-2014, 02:20 AM
Calvin: There is no need of refuting the foolish fancy of some, that all sculptures and pictures are here condemned by Moses, for he had no other object than to rescue God’s glory from all the imaginations which tend to corrupt it. And assuredly it is a most gross indecency to make God like a stock or a stone. Some expound the words, “Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven image, which thou mayest adore;” as if it were allowable to make a visible image of God, provided it be not adored; but the expositions which will follow will easily refute their error. Meanwhile, I do not deny that these things are to be taken connectedly, since superstitious worship is hardly ever separated from the preceding error; for as soon as any one has permitted himself to devise an image of God, he immediately falls into false worship. And surely whosoever reverently and soberly feels and thinks about God Himself, is far from this absurdity; nor does any desire or presumption to metamorphose God ever creep in, except when coarse and carnal imaginations occupy our minds. Hence it comes to pass, that those, who frame for themselves gods of corruptible materials, superstitiously adore the work of their own hands. I will then readily allow these two things, which are inseparable, to be joined together; only let us recollect that God is insulted, not only when His worship is transferred to idols, but when we try to represent Him by any outward similitude.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=20

Calvin teaches that all pictures and sculptures are not condemned (first sentence) and that making an idol would inevitably lead to worshiping it.I'm totally aware of Calvin's comments on Ex 20:4-6 in his Harmony of the Law. Now Calvin is widely criticised by even some Calvinists for his viewpoint on images. So a question mark arises whether his remark is a later interpolation or Calvin had a change of mind. In the text you have drawn upon Calvin states "The words simply express that it is wrong “C’est une folie et perversite.” — Fr. for men to seek the presence of God in any visible image, because He cannot be represented to our eyes. The command that they should not make any likeness, either of any thing which is in heaven, or in the earth, or in the waters under the earth, is derived from the evil custom which had everywhere prevailed; for, since superstition is never uniform, but is drawn aside in various directions..."

Calvin is notorious for his criticism of the RCC's adornment of their churches on the grounds they encourage idolatry...


Calvin teaches that all pictures and sculptures are not condemned (first sentence) and that making an idol would inevitably lead to worshiping it.Try and find time to read a lot more of Calvin or for that matter the ancient church father Cyprian. In the later's case, all images, plays, sports etc lead to idolatry (then again he railed against the Roman world, which from what I can tell wasn't too dissimilar to modern popularism.)