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FarEastBird
05-25-2014, 03:32 PM
Amillinialists: Kingdom of Fools


I was in the process of writing and essay with a title above. But I begun to realize that it would seem too be a complicated subject. Yet I just want to pass the idea of the destructive consequence of believing in amilinialism.


A belief that goes with amilinialism is the notion of the "invisible" church, which consequentially meant that the kingdom is invisible. At first, the mattter seem to be not problematic, but once we get deeper unto it, it actually question the idea if God is indeed reigning in this world.


First, a kingdom is made up of heirarchy of leaders of which every leaders are leading its members to God. But if salvation is attained by others outside of Christianity (an implication of believing the invisible church), then what is the need for Christians to claim authority as sole guide to God? It would imply that there is a way of salvation which Christianity does not know, and consequentially deny Christianity to be the kingdom of God! It would make it ridiculous that God had set up a kingdom in Christianity.


In the outset, it is absurd for God to set up an invisible Church/Kingdom. There would be no problem to believe that God remains omnipotent without an existing kingdom of God. But for God to set up a kingdom which each members do not know the members among themselves is quite lunacy.

KingsGambit
05-25-2014, 04:59 PM
Amillinialists: Kingdom of Fools

First, a kingdom is made up of heirarchy of leaders of which every leaders are leading its members to God. But if salvation is attained by others outside of Christianity (an implication of believing the invisible church), then what is the need for Christians to claim authority as sole guide to God?

How is this a logical consequence of amillennialism? :huh:

FarEastBird
05-25-2014, 06:28 PM
How is this a logical consequence of amillennialism? :huh:

Amillinialists believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ is not literal in which the kingdom of God exist at this present until it comes to the realization that all kingdoms become under Christ's. Perhaps not all amillinialists believe this?

I actually have to search what others meant, and of their implications of believing, of the "invisible church." So I may not simply be referring of the amillinialists; they just came to my mind at first.

Anyways, it just came to me that it is not tenable to believe of an "invisible church." This is new to me, and I would like to gather any info, or feedback, about this.

thanks

RBerman
05-25-2014, 06:55 PM
Anyways, it just came to me that it is not tenable to believe of an "invisible church." This is new to me, and I would like to gather any info, or feedback, about this.

The phrase "invisible church" may not be helpful to some, I agree. The basic concept is that God alone has perfect knowledge of who is going to heaven, and who is not. At some point, terminology evolved to distinguish that group of people from a "visible church" consisting of people who have associated themselves with a local church, whether or not they are actually going to heaven. Don't get hung up on the terminology. The question is: Do you think that everyone who says they are a Christian, is really a Christian?

dacristoy
05-25-2014, 07:41 PM
Amillinialists: Kingdom of Fools

First, a kingdom is made up of hierarchy of leaders of which every leaders are leading its members to God. But if salvation is attained by others outside of Christianity (an implication of believing the invisible church), then what is the need for Christians to claim authority as sole guide to God? It would imply that there is a way of salvation which Christianity does not know, and consequentially deny Christianity to be the kingdom of God! It would make it ridiculous that God had set up a kingdom in Christianity.

I do not believe that the way of salvation is indigenous to Christianity, but rather it an attribute that belongs to Christ and Christ alone. (Not his church) Who he chooses to save is up to him without the application of the religion of Christianity holding him back.

Christianity replaced the Jewish priesthood, being a Jew was never the only way to God, neither is Christianity. The honor reserved for Christians in heaven is that we are call by God to be kings and priests. Does not make sense that every single person in God’s kingdom would be a king or a priest. Christians will hold those positions among those that are judged worthy of salvation who follow Christian principles without Calling Christ “Christ, but rather live his lordship instead.

Christians are no more than priests under the new covenant just as the Jews were under the old…

Someone posed the question as to whether all persons claiming to be Christians are in fact Christian. The answer is “NO”. Some of the theological persuasions are just as unchristian as some men making the claim…

FarEastBird
05-25-2014, 08:09 PM
The basic concept is that God alone has perfect knowledge of who is going to heaven, and who is not.

Well, that is where the great confusion is. Christian ought to be the one who know's the "way" to heaven. But just imagine the Pope said that some Muslims will go to heaven, without giving a good reason why, other than just making pleasing statements. I believe that it hurts the credibility of the Pope, or even of Christianity as a whole, as authority with regards to the way to heaven.



At some point, terminology evolved to distinguish that group of people from a "visible church" consisting of people who have associated themselves with a local church, whether or not they are actually going to heaven. Don't get hung up on the terminology. The question is: Do you think that everyone who says they are a Christian, is really a Christian?

The confusion will still apply even among us Christians. If you would refer of the "visible church" as those churches that they are of different doctrinal issues, and are not acting as one body, what kind of God's kingdom is that? Would you believe that God is using these warring pastors but have no intention of uniting them?

Now, I can understand the extent of us not knowing ALL of who's who that will be saved in a church, but will you really be making a descent statement if you would say, "I do not really know if my Pastor is saved or not"? I can appreciate you, and your Pastor, to be humble, but it will not be humbleness to claim that a Pastor's salvation is unsure. The pastor must stand his ground of his knowledge of salvation, and condemn others who present a salvation in conflict with his. Now, if the pastor would claim that there are saved among those who are opposing him, as well as of the members of those opposing him, would it not harm the pastor's credibility as guide to salvation?


I would doubt that any pastor would present many ways to salvation.

FarEastBird
05-25-2014, 10:25 PM
I do not believe that the way of salvation is indigenous to Christianity, but rather it an attribute that belongs to Christ and Christ alone. (Not his church) Who he chooses to save is up to him without the application of the religion of Christianity holding him back.

Christianity replaced the Jewish priesthood, being a Jew was never the only way to God, neither is Christianity.

You are admitting confusion to creep into the Church. Why would we we claim that Christ is the "only way" if we do not really know what it meant? If anyone among the atheist would be saved, and you cannot know the reason why, then your knowledge about Christ as the "only way" is highly subject to doubt.

And you have to note this: when Jesus came, he said, "salvation is of the Jews." And the reason salvation came to the Gentiles is because the Jews "fell away."


The honor reserved for Christians in heaven is that we are call by God to be kings and priests. Does not make sense that every single person in God’s kingdom would be a king or a priest.

Excellent observation!

When God promised to make a "new heaven and earth," He was referring of changing the theocratic kingdom of Israel. The kings, priests, and prophets are representing the heaven, and the earth represents of their subjects.

When Christ came, he did not establish a new heaven and earth, as yet, rather, they battle with the Dragon and drove the Dragon away from heaven, and cast the Dragon into the earth, including their angels. Remember, even during the time of the apostles, salvation still belongs to Israel(having not fallen away yet), thus the "heaven and earth" was, and still, belonging to Israel.

Unless, of course, if you think of the kingdom of God to be up there in the sky, then yes, the promise would not make sense to you at all.



Christians will hold those positions among those that are judged worthy of salvation who follow Christian principles without Calling Christ “Christ, but rather live his lordship instead.

Christians are no more than priests under the new covenant just as the Jews were under the old…

So God promised you a kingship that does not exist? Perhaps you do not know the mystery of the kingdom of God, which, btw, is hid to the lost?


Someone posed the question as to whether all persons claiming to be Christians are in fact Christian. The answer is “NO”. Some of the theological persuasions are just as unchristian as some men making the claim…

I believe you, and RBerman may agree as well. And what I see problematic is of that idea/scenario to support a claim of an "invisible church."

dacristoy
05-26-2014, 09:41 AM
You are admitting confusion to creep into the Church. Why would we claim that Christ is the "only way" if we do not really know what it meant? If anyone among the atheist would be saved, and you cannot know the reason why, then your knowledge about Christ as the "only way" is highly subject to doubt.

One way to establish biblically that Christ is the only way is to acknowledge him as the keeper of the keys to the gates of heaven. The only way in is to be allowed in by him. If you are trying to limit what Christ or cannot do as far as granting salvation, you do not know Christ.


And you have to note this: when Jesus came, he said, "Salvation is of the Jews." And the reason salvation came to the Gentiles is because the Jews "fell away."

Salvation is of the Jews is nothing more than Christ acknowledging the Jews as a kingdom of priests chosen by God to evangelize the world. They have never been God’s instruments of salvation. You are not as up on the mysteries of the kingdom as you think you are…


Excellent observation!
I do have my moments…

When God promised to make a "new heaven and earth," He was referring of changing the theocratic kingdom of Israel. The kings, priests, and prophets are representing the heaven, and the earth represents of their subjects.

Show me from which scriptures you glean this conclusion.


When Christ came, he did not establish a new heaven and earth, as yet, rather, they battle with the Dragon and drove the Dragon away from heaven, and cast the Dragon into the earth, including their angels. Remember, even during the time of the apostles, salvation still belongs to Israel(having not fallen away yet), thus the "heaven and earth" was, and still, belonging to Israel.
What do you mean, “Salvation belongs to the Jews?”


Unless, of course, if you think of the kingdom of God to be up there in the sky, then yes, the promise would not make sense to you at all.
No desire to respond to this…


So God promised you a kingship that does not exist? Perhaps you do not know the mystery of the kingdom of God, which, btw, is hid to the lost?
FarEastBird, Far far, far east bird…


I believe you, and RBerman may agree as well. And what I see problematic is of that idea/scenario to support a claim of an "invisible church."
I make no claim concerning an “indivisible Church” I have never seen it… Visibly or in scripture….

RBerman
05-26-2014, 12:22 PM
Well, that is where the great confusion is. Christian ought to be the one who know's the "way" to heaven. But just imagine the Pope said that some Muslims will go to heaven, without giving a good reason why, other than just making pleasing statements. I believe that it hurts the credibility of the Pope, or even of Christianity as a whole, as authority with regards to the way to heaven.
No argument there. The reality is that there is confusion. There are some people who call themselves Christians without really understanding what that means, or should mean. The visible/invisible church distinction is intended to reflect the distinction between those who really are Christians (the invisible church) and those who say they are, whether they really are or not (the visible church). I agree that the term "invisible church" can be a confusing way to describe "real Christians."


The confusion will still apply even among us Christians. If you would refer of the "visible church" as those churches that they are of different doctrinal issues, and are not acting as one body, what kind of God's kingdom is that? Would you believe that God is using these warring pastors but have no intention of uniting them?
The issue of "the visible church" has nothing to do with denominations. Under the standard definition, all true Christians are members of the visible church, regardless of their denomination (or lack thereof), and regardless of whether the denominations are united or divided. It's just a totally different issue than you raise here.


I would doubt that any pastor would present many ways to salvation.

No good pastor would. But there are plenty of bad pastors out there.

FarEastBird
05-26-2014, 01:42 PM
No argument there. The reality is that there is confusion. There are some people who call themselves Christians without really understanding what that means, or should mean. The visible/invisible church distinction is intended to reflect the distinction between those who really are Christians (the invisible church) and those who say they are, whether they really are or not (the visible church). I agree that the term "invisible church" can be a confusing way to describe "real Christians."


The issue of "the visible church" has nothing to do with denominations. Under the standard definition, all true Christians are members of the visible church, regardless of their denomination (or lack thereof), and regardless of whether the denominations are united or divided. It's just a totally different issue than you raise here.



No good pastor would. But there are plenty of bad pastors out there.

Thanks, RBerman. Your responses are of great help to come to my decision not to delve into the issue.

FarEastBird
05-26-2014, 02:56 PM
One way to establish biblically that Christ is the only way is to acknowledge him as the keeper of the keys to the gates of heaven. The only way in is to be allowed in by him. If you are trying to limit what Christ or cannot do as far as granting salvation, you do not know Christ.

You are talking about apples, while I'm talking about oranges.

I am not questioning Christ's power, rather of the Christians' authority as guides to the "only way."



Salvation is of the Jews is nothing more than Christ acknowledging the Jews as a kingdom of priests chosen by God to evangelize the world. They have never been God’s instruments of salvation.

dacristoy, only God saves, and he uses men to save the elect.



11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:11-14 (KJV)

The perfecting of the saint is done only through the Church, thru the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

I can understand that God can directly save others without passing through the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers authorized by God. But, for sure, the "perfection" that he would receive will not differ to the perfection which the apostles, pastors, etc., is leading the saints into.


Show me from which scriptures you glean this conclusion.

Here are verses:

Matt 21:43 (KJV)
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


Note that Jesus was saying that God is "still to take from the Jews," meaning in his future, the kingdom of God.

And Peter, on the other hand, spoke that God will take a people from among the Gentiles:

Acts 15:14 (KJV)
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.


Note the scenario of what Isaiah was saying:

Isa 65:1-2 (KJV)
1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. 2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

And here are other verses helpful to make you understand more of the prophecies

Deut 32:21 (KJV)
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isa 51:16 (KJV)
16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.



What do you mean, “Salvation belongs to the Jews?”

It is quite easy to understand the implication of "salvation came to the Gentiles because the Jews had fallen away." It meant that there are no salvation among the Gentiles while the Jews had not fallen away. Jesus had actually given the very reason why salvation is of the Jews, note what he said:



Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22 (KJV)


He echoed the same in John 17:3


And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.



.

dacristoy
05-26-2014, 07:51 PM
You are talking about apples, while I'm talking about oranges.

I am not questioning Christ's power, rather of the Christians' authority as guides to the "only way."

dacristoy, only God saves, and he uses men to save the elect.

May I be excused FarEastBird. I'm a western bird...