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Dee Dee Warren
March 4th 2004, 08:32 AM
EPISTEMOLOGICAL CERTANTY OF SALVATION: A CRITIQUE OF THE SOTERIOLOGY OF DR. CLARK H. PINNOCK

by Jeremy D. Oxford

Thesis

The focus and purpose of this paper is to examine and critique the soteriological view of inclusivism, as proposed by Dr. Clark H. Pinnock. As of now Dr. Pinnock considers himself to be an optimistic evangelical theologian1. It must be pointed out in the beginning, however, that his stance on salvation cannot be thrown out for lack of nobility. For his views are held mostly out of a genuine compassion for people2. However, man’s compassion, as in all areas of life, must be subjected to the infallible word of God. It must be that way because even our compassion for mankind is corrupt due to the fall. We are beings that are subjected to the imputed sinfulness of Adam from birth and even in a redeemed state of mind we are still marred by the effects of the fall.

Inclusivism, in brief, is the belief that salvation can be obtained through extra-biblical means. This belief says that there are many saved Muslims, Buddhist, etc. throughout the world. Does this seem to contradict the Scriptures? Did Jesus not say, “I am the way the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14.6)?

John 14.6 is one among many texts that points to the valid claim that no one apart from Christ - found only in the Christian faith - can obtain salvation. This will be the focus of this paper.

Inclusivism Further Defined

With the passing of Modernity and the recent rise of Post-Modernity the western church has entered into a new arena of skepticism. Historically, the church until now has held to the validity of the Scriptural claim that Jesus is the only way of salvation and only in the Christian faith can one obtain a true knowledge which leads to salvation. Today that claim has been challenged by many evangelicals.

In this recent rise of Post-Modernism there has been a new hunger for religion. Modernity, in its attempt to answer the questions of ultimate reality, started with man and ended right were it started; it answered nothing and was left only with human reason as ultimate, leaving man with no meaning or purpose in life. Man, in his attempt to be autonomous, has come back to confessing a dependency on the need for religion to satisfy his ultimate need for a supernatural explanation to life and meaning.

All religions and all beliefs seek to find some type of salvation in someone or something. Some faiths seek it existentially or epistemologically, while others might try to find salvation through ascetics or a specific redeemer. No matter what, everyone every where longs for some sort of enlightenment that will give him (or her) meaning and purpose in life.

At this point however, it must be questioned, “Can these other faiths point to the cross of Christ? Can man in his attempt to seek God come to God through Christ via an extra Biblical faith?” The Biblical answer to this question would be no3. However, there are evangelicals today who have challenged this orthodox position. These individuals are known as inlcusivists.

Inclusivism, unlike pluralism, believes that salvation can only come from a high Christology4. In other words, Christ's atonement on the cross is necessary for salvation. However, depending on the context in which one is dealing it does not have to come via the Bible. A saving knowledge of God may be extended to other faiths based on a positive response of faith of God’s general revealing5. This understanding of Inclusivism comes by way of the work of Dr. Clark H. Pinnock.

In the introduction to his book, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, Pinnock defines his inclusivism as thus; “By ‘inclusivism’ I refer to the view upholding Christ as the savior of humanity but also affirming God’s saving presence in the wider world and in other religions.6” He explains his position by stating that he is in some way exclusive in his beliefs but only in the sense that Jesus is needed for the atonement of sin. However, in his words, “it does not deny the possible salvation of non-Christians.”7

Having now established a historical foundation and an understanding of what Pinnock means by salvation, attention needs to be turned to what he sees as fundamental in his soteriology. In his inclusivism he has what he calls two fundamental axioms8. The first is universality and the second is particularity. He states that, “This two-sided truth is found every where in the New Testament.9” He then goes on to quote John 3.16 which says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten so that who ever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.10” The logic behind this line of thought would be that he views world here to mean every individual which would give him his universal view and then next would be the only begotten son which would be the trade for the world and so that leaves his readers with Christ as being the particular.

Axiom I: Pinnock’s Universality. When speaking of the universality of God’s mercy, Pinnock is referring to the extant of God’s saving love for all individuals from the farthest corners of the earth. As mentioned earlier he believes that there are many children of God who are outside the Christian faith because God is at work among many pagan religions.11 How does he come to this conclusion? Even non-believers have a general sense that the Bible teaches a strict exclusivism. The answer to this question is found in what Pinnock calls A Hermeneutic of Hopefulness and will be the focus of this section. 12

What Pinnock does with his hermeneutical method is bring his presupposed idea to the text that God’s salvific mercy is wide and inclusive to all peoples. He then uses the Bible to find proof texts that will support his claim with little to no exegesis and then concludes by trying to show that he has pointed out a universal principle in salvation. 13

A clear example of this is Pinnock’s understanding of Abraham’s faith. He writes, “The patriarch Abraham was justified by faith without knowing Jesus, and Paul holds him up as a model believer for us all, even though he never herd the gospel (Romans 4.1-25).”14 By making this statement Pinnock tries lead his readers into believing that God saves some outside the Judeo-Christian faith. He does this based off the fact that he was a righteous man apart from the preached message of the crucified Lord. What Pinnock fails to do however, in his presentation of this passage is acknowledge the context in which Paul is writing.

Paul is in no way trying to establish salvation apart from the God of the Bible. In fact he is building a case for salvation that is found only in the Bible that is based not on a system of works.15 This is why he says in verse 2 of chapter 4, “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.” Paul then goes on to add in verse three, “For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness.” The faith that the apostle Paul is discussing here is in no other faith than that of the one true God of Israel. Abraham was looking forward to the promise and although he may not have understood the Tri-unity of God per se, he did seek the one true God found only in the Scriptures that was made manifest in Jesus the Christ. The salvation of Abraham was found in no other faith than the one in which God established with him.16

Another fine example of Pinnock’s hermeneutic is found in his handling of the text of Hebrews. Hebrews is a very interesting letter and probably one of the more encouraging of the New Testament epistles.

Hebrews was written to a church that was once a thriving body, the church as a whole was on fire and was willing and ready to walk through the flames of persecution for the name of Christ (Heb. 10.32-33). Joyfully they gave up their property and showed sympathy to prisoners by believing they had a greater treasure, namely Jesus (Heb. 10.34). As time went by their faith grew dim and as it grew dim they began to shrink back from the race of faith (Heb. 10.36-39). It is from here that the author of Hebrews turns his attention to the patriarchs of the Jewish faith in which they were apart of found in chapter 11. Many know this chapter as the “hall of faith”. The reason why the author does this is because the patriarchs were of the same faith. They were not ambiguous entities of a general belief in God. They believed in and served only Yahweh.

However, what Pinnock does with this text is ignore the surrounding context of the entire book. Concerning Hebrews 11 he writes:


The author of Hebrews, after speaking about those who had faith before Christ came, that is, about those pagans[emphasis added] and Jews who had pleased God by faith (all of them as non-Christians), observes that they did not receive what was promised (the Messiah) because God had a better plan, according to which they would not suffer loss (Heb. 11.39-40). Are we not all burdened by the apparent unfairness of a message that we say has universal saving significance, but which has not actually been available to a sizable percentage of the [human] race hitherto? Hebrews wants to tell us that all these people had access to God, even though they longed for a fuller gift that in God’s sovereignty was not yet given historically – namely, the better covenant, the better sacrifice, the better hope, and so on.17 This is a prime example of Pinnock’s exegesis. Not only did he not exposite the text in any real sense to do it historical justice, but he added an unwarranted assumption that some of the people discussed in the text were pagans. He just simply has no proof of this. No where does the Bible lead its readers to believe that pagans were included in the nation of God’s holy people. As well, the Bible also never leads its readers to believe that once a pagan submitted faith to Yahweh they remained in a pagan state.

In the Shema, found in Deuteronomy chapter 6, Moses tells Israel that they are only to serve and worship Yahweh. In verses 4-6 he writes, “Hear, O Israel! The Lord your God is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words which I am commanding you shall be on your heart.” He then continues on to say in verses 13-15 that:


You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and he will wipe you off the face of the earth. How can these passages lead the readers of Pinnock’s work to believe what he has set forth in Hebrews is true?

Were there pagans considered to be included within God’s chosen people? The next chapter over in the same book God gives us a good answer to this. God tells His people Israel they are to stay away from the pagan world. He says to them they are not to intermarry with those outside of Israel (Deut. 7.3) and that when they enter into their lands they are to “tear down their alters, smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire (Deut. 7.5).” This does not sound a bit supportive to Pinnock’s belief that among God’s chosen there were pagan followers outside the nation of Israel.18

To speak objectively and give an obvious conclusion to this section will be to confess Pinnock’s hermeneutic of hopefulness as rather a Presupposition of Hopefulness, which carries with it no type of exegetical integrity. In his universality axiom Pinnock shows more concern for what his mind and heart desires than what the text actually says and allows. His compassion for the human race to be saved, as mentioned before is quite noble, but compassion needs to be in accord with the evidence. Jesus said that apart from him there is no other way (John 14.6). The Bible serves as authority on soteriology; readers must submit to that authority regardless of what he (or she) feels.

Axiom II: Pinnock’s Particularity. Having now an understanding of Pinnock’s universality this paper now turns to his particularity. Pinnock defines his particularity by saying that it is the, “…finality of Jesus Christ as the decisive manifestation and ground of God’s grace towards sinners.”19 Standing on the outside looking in Pinnock seems to be making a very orthodox statement. Christ is in fact the only source in which sin can be atoned and He is the only mediator between us and the father.20 However, what he asserts in other places is that there are other ways (paths) and mediations that lead to Jesus apart from the preaching of His word. What Pinnock believes is, “Everyone must eventually pass through Jesus to reach the Father, but there is more than one path for arriving at this place.”21

For orthodox believers, the only way a person can arrive at knowing Christ is via His word and no way else. In Romans 10.17 this is made clear by the apostle Paul who himself writes that, “…faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.” Faith in Jesus Christ cannot come apart from the preaching of his of his word. Paul believes that if there were no preachers sent there would not be new converts. This means that apart from the knowledge of Christ a person can not be an adherent to the work of Christ and is then, therefore condemned.

In Pinnock’s view, however, a person does not need to have a working knowledge of Christ to belong to Christ. This is seen when Pinnock writes that:


There are other levels to faith than the intellectual. The act of faith is more than cognitive. Authentic faith and holy action may flow from persons inhabiting an unpromising religious and doctrinal culture. Someone might be an atheist because he or she does not understand who God is, and still may have faith… Did Jesus not tell us that giving the thirsty a drink of cold water is an act of participation in the selfless love God revealed in the gospel and makes one his sheep (Matt. 25.31-40)?22 According to what Pinnock is saying here, faith is subjective. This means that the only real objectivity in faith is Christ, therefore, apart from him any genuine effort towards the love of a god or a desire to worship is indirectly towards the true God (and in some cases a god does not even need to be present). This then is quintessential faith in Pinnock’s understanding.

Many Christians recall the sequences leading up to their salvation and conversion in Jesus. In this, many can account for a previous desire to know God in the moments that God was drawing them to himself. However, the believers who confess to this also confess that although they desired him (still not knowing him) they would not consider their subjective desires as acts towards faith in Christ. The difference between the pagan, who offers a thirsty passer by a drink of water, and the difference between a Christian who does the same is motive. The pagan does it because he sees it as some good merit showing his good nature (or possibly in hopes something good will happen to him in return ect…), but the believer does it because it glorifies God and it shows appreciation for man created in the Imago Dei (image of God).

Pinnock’s remarks concerning atheist having faith being counted towards God in Christ Jesus based off of Matthew 25.30-41 is a careless handling of what God’s word actually says. This passage is a product of Jesus’ private words to his disciples that begin back in chapter 24. The scene that the scripture paints for its readers is that as Jesus is coming out of the temple, His disciples meet up with him and they begin to point out the temple buildings surrounding the area where they are located (Matt 24.1). At this time Jesus tells them, “not one stone will be left upon another, which will not be torn down” (Matt 24.2). His disciples, curious at his words, seek him out later as he is sitting on the Mount of Olives and ask him in private, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be a sign of your coming, and of the end of the age (Matt. 24.3)?”

It is from here that the context for this passage can be built. From Matthew 24.4-25.41 Jesus explains to them what is going to take place when this time comes. To help them understand these things he uses his typical method of parables to teach them. Leading up to the end of their discussion Jesus tells them what is going to take place at his return. He is going to gather the nations and as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats at night so he to will separate His people from amongst the nations (Matt 25.32).

What Pinnock tries to imply here from all this is that Jesus is not meaning only his disciples, but also people who are located among the nations that do not confess Christ per se. Since the gospel has not gone out from where they are at this time Pinnock would (or could) try to argue that there are pagan believers that could be read into the text. Although one could see how he could come to this conclusion, that just is not fact.23 Jesus is explicitly leading His disciples to believe that when he returns he is returning for them. Not them only but the disciples of the entire world eschatologically who confess a loyal faith only to Jesus the Christ. Upon his return he will judge the world according to her works and reward His sheep according to theirs.24

Pinnock believes that subjectiveness is a great factor in the lives of unbelievers concerning faith and puts a de-emphasis on knowledge. Ronald Nash observes rather closely and quotes some of his words concerning the importance Pinnock places on knowledge in faith and writes:

Apart from having the true God as its object, the key factor about saving faith in inclusivist terms is its subject aspect. Note these statements by Pinnock:


Faith in God is what saves, not possessing a certain minimum information.’

‘A person is saved by faith, even if the content of faith is deficient (and whose is not?). The Bible does not teach that one must confess the name of Jesus to be saved.’

‘One does not have to be conscious of the work of Christ done on one’s behalf in order to benefit from that work. The issue God cares about is the direction of the heart, not the content of theology.’ 25 The Bible teaches that it is a cognitive imperative that man has a historical knowledge of Christ. The doctrine of the cross cannot be ignored. Thus one can hear the groan of the broken heart of Paul over the Jewish nation when he writes:


Brethren, my hearts desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to God (Romans 10.1-3; emphasis added). Was knowledge not seen as being important to the salvific state of his Jewish brethren? He says that they did not even know about God’s righteousness; however they are still accountable for it, because they suppressed the knowledge which God had revealed in them through creation (Romans 1.19). Paul says, “They exchanged the truth for a lie (Romans 1.25).” It is clear that Pinnock is gravely mistaken in his words when he teaches that a working knowledge of Christ is not important.

In the series of quotes that Nash listed, Pinnock wrote, “The Bible does not teach that one must confess the name of Jesus to be saved.”26 This does not line up with Paul’s words in Romans 10.9-10 when he writes:


That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Confession of Jesus Christ as Lord is essential in the Christian faith and cannot go unnoticed. If confession was not important in salvation, Paul would not have written it. If confession of Jesus was not important he himself would not had made mention of it. In Matthew 10.32-33 Jesus said:


Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. The Bible clearly teaches that the confession of Christ is apart of the believer’s life.

It could be argued, however, that when Paul wrote Romans 10.9-10 is was written in a conditional/situational manor. This is an argument that inclusivist John Sanders makes27. Thus Nash quotes Sanders as saying:


It is clear from Roman 10.9 that whoever confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. It is not clear that whoever does not fulfill these conditions is lost. Paul simply does not specify how much a person has to know to be saved. Therefore, this results in a conditional meaning for the inclusivist and ignores the content of the text. Nash then counters the argument by writing:


Sanders regards this passage as a conditional statement comparable to “If it rains, then the sidewalk will get wet.” That is, if you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him, you will be saved. Both conditional statements are true Sanders assures us. But turning the nonbiblical sentence around does not yield a true proposition. The side walk could be wet even though it has not rained. The side walk might have gotten wet some other way – from a sprinkling system, for example. 29 It then cannot be stated by Pinnock that confession of our glorious Lord is not needed.

Conclusion.

When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14.6) He made himself rather clear. That there are those who have made the claim to hold to biblical authority and reject the exclusivity of Scripture in salvation is absurd. From Genesis to Revelation the Bible has shown itself to be a timeless piece and has shown it self to be written to give light unto the world and guidance to God’s chosen.

In his work Dr. Clark H. Pinnock has shown himself to be a passionate yet careless theologian. In the closing of one of his works he writes:


Inclusivism is a timely and appealing model, and I offer it for consideration. It interprets faith in Jesus Christ as not entailing narrowness or pessimism in our understanding of God’s redemptive purposes. I think that if we were to reform theology in the direction of inclusivism, we might enhance the credibility of our faith and render more radical options unnecessary.30 In closing, this paper represents everything opposite to what Pinnock sets forth. Inclusivism as a whole shows no exegetical tact and is a system built around a desire to be as inoffensive as possible with a hermeneutic that seeks to appeal to a pluralistic culture. To reform theology in the direction of inclusivism would counteract to what Pinnock claims and would be the death of faith – for who would need to believe?

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Footnotes

1. His optimism will be more fully developed further throughout the paper. This optimism is a key component of how he views his soteriology.

2. He also makes the claim that his view is exegetically supported throughout his writings.

3. The Bible answers this in many ways but two brief references to this would be John 14.6 which states: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.” Also Romans 10.17 which says: “So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.”

4. I am meaning Religious pluralism which, “Is the belief that every religion is true. Each provides a genuine encounter with the ultimate. One may be better than the others but all are adequate. See Norman L. Giesler, “Pluralism, Religious” Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1999), 598.

5. D.A. Carson defines inclusivism as being the, “view that all who are saved are saved on account of the person and work of Jesus Christ, but that conscious faith in Jesus Christ is not absolutely necessary: some may be saved by him who have never herd of Him, for they may respond positively to the light they have received.” The Gagging of God: Christianity Confronts Pluralism (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1996), 278.

6. Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy: The Finality of Jesus Christ in a World of Religions (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992), 15.

7. Ibid., 15

8. Ibid., 17

9. Ibid.

10. Ibid.

11. Pinnock bases his belief in this off of the doctrine of the omnipresence of God. He puts his words in a syllogistic form for his readers like this: “God is present as the triune creator and Redeemer everywhere – in the far reaches of space, in every culture, and in every human heart. Therefore, divine grace is also prevenient everywhere – since God has created the whole world, since Jesus Christ died for all humanity, and since the spirit gives life to creation. “Inclusivism”, Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World, eds., Dennis L. Okholm, Timothy R. Phillips, Stanley N. Gundry (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House 1996), 98.

12. Ibid., 20

13. I m not trying to imply that Pinnock is a Universalist in the sense that all will eventually be saved, as some pluralist believe. However, in Pinnock’s writing he does seem to be very sensitive to believing that all “good” people will be saved. That is people who would be considered very moral in there life styles. This leaves the reader with a clear conclusion that Jesus is working amongst non-believers in their faith and operatively converting them apart from the Judeo-Christian message

14. Pinnock, Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World. 110.

15. When I say that Paul is making a case for salvation through the God of the Bible I do not mean that he is writing primarily to combat inclusivism. I believe that Paul does not even think twice about whether or not his readers believe that salvation can come from outside faiths through Jesus. He is obviously dealing with those who are working within a Biblical frame based off the Old Testament. These are believers whoa re probably very familiar with the Shema found in Deuteronomy 6. Israel would have only assumed the God of the Bible for their source of salvation. Salvation could only come to those who where part of Israel.

16. Concerning Old Testament believers Dr. Russell Moore of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary wrote: Those who point to the Old Testament believers as evidence that conscious faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation are mistaken both about the nature of Old Testament belief and about the progressive nature of redemptive history. The New Testament contends that old covenant believers trusted in the coming messianic redemption on the basis of the revelation given to them by God (Heb. 11.26, for example) Even more significant, the New Testament asserts that a cosmic shift has occurred in the flow of history with the coming of Christ. The “end of the ages” has come upon us. The Man on the Island: Facing the Truth about those who Never Hear the Gospel. Article from: //www.henryinstitute.org, posted August 18, 2003

17. Pinnock, Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World, 115-116.

18. This is not to say that pagans then and pagans now cannot be converted. But a pagan cannot be both pagan and believer that is a false dichotomy not found in the scriptures. The whole focus when having gave your life to Christ is that you are a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5.17). Just as we are made new and conform to Christ found in God’s law, so it is true that the converted pagan do the same. That’s why we must insist against what Pinnock says about there being pagan saints (Ibid. 119). However Pinnock also says right after that that, “Not using this terminology [pagan saints] avoids practical embarrassment of calling a Buddhist an anonymous Christian… (Ibid. 120)”, in essence that is what he is still saying. This is an insult to Christians and to Buddhists, because a Buddhist does not want to be a Christian, but rather a Buddhist and Christians do not want to be tied a belief that is contrary to the Bible. It is also important to note here that when referring to Israel I mean those who believe in Yahweh. It is impossible to think of one as a true follower of God and not being apart of God’s Holy nation, for Gentiles are considered grafted in to the promises of God when brought into a relationship with Him.

19. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, 49.

20. In Pinnock’s book – A Wideness in God’s Mercy – he builds a case for high Christology in the Bible. I am not including his foundations for this because I can agree with him (that is, that apart from Christ there is no remission for sin) and there is no real need to comment on this. What I will comment on is his unorthodox beliefs of other religion being used for leading people to a proper knowledge of God.

21. Pinnock, Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World, 119.

22. Ibid., 118-119.

23. It would also be good to note that no where in the Gospels have the writers made sheep to mean any thing other than those who have a coherent working knowledge of Jesus being the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy and savior of there sins.

24. For good commentary on this passage See. Leon Morris, The Gospel According to Matthew, The Pillar New Testament Commentary, D.A. Carson ed., (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1992).

25. Ronald H. Nash, Is Jesus the Only Savior?, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1994), 125.

26. See above quotes on page 11 of this paper from Nash, Is Jesus the Only Savior?, 125

27. Ibid., 144-145.

28. Ibid., 144.

29. Ibid., 144-145.

30. Pinnock, Four Views on Salvation, 123.

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BIBLIOGRAPHY

Carson, D.A. The Gagging of God: Christianity Confronts Pluralism. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1996.

Geisler, Norman L. Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1999.

Morris, Leon. The Gospel According to Matthew. The Pillar New Testament Commentary. Edited by D.A. Carson. Grand Rapids, Michigan. William B. Eerdmans Publishing. 1992.

Nash, Ronald J. Is Jesus the Only Savior? Grand Rapids, Michigan. Zondervan Publishing. 1994.

Okholm, Dennis L. and Timothy R. Phillips, eds. Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World. Series Editor Stanley N. Gundry. Grand Rapids, Michigan. Zondervan Publishing. 1996.

Pinnock, Clark H. A Wideness in Gods Mercy: The Finality of Jesus Christ in a World of Religions. Grand Rapids, Michigan. Zondervan Publishing. 1992.

Internet Source

Moore, Russell D. The Man on the Island: Facing the Truth about those who Never Hear the Gospel. The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. 2003. Accessed Oct. 2003. Available from www.henryinstitute.org; (http://www.henryinstitute.org;) Internet.



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geebob
March 4th 2004, 01:44 PM
At this point however, it must be questioned, “Can these other faiths point to the cross of Christ? Can man in his attempt to seek God come to God through Christ via an extra Biblical faith?”

the answer is that they certainly can and have been proven crucial in bringing pagans to Christ. Roberto De Nobili for example went to India and adopted certain indian customs and familiarized himself with the Hindu texts and used these to bring the Hindus to Christ. He converted many Brahmins and such success in this most inpenetrable caste has not been reproduced.

Now I recall a story in a class in world religions. It refered to the custom of ancient missionaries and translators to translate God's name in a culture new to the Gospel using the name of an ancient and almost forgotten God in that culture. And this is beneficial to missions since the people get the message that God has indeed been working with them. The story refered to a missionary to china who saught to do this very thing. He translated the name of God into the name of an almost forgotten diety from that culture and the church grew and was successful. Then the vatican sent out orders telling the missionary that he had to use theos and not the Chinese name. The church died after that.

And of course who can forget Paul who dared quote a pagan Hymn to Zeus and identified the subject of that hymn as the creator God who he was going to proclaim to them?


However, there are evangelicals today who have challenged this orthodox position. These individuals are known as inlcusivists.

they have challenged this orthodox position on the grounds of another orthodox position. Inclusivism IS orthodox and as old as restrictivism (and probably even older as I contend that Paul was an inclusivist).


Paul is in no way trying to establish salvation apart from the God of the Bible. In fact he is building a case for salvation that is found only in the Bible that is based not on a system of works.15 This is why he says in verse 2 of chapter 4, “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.” Paul then goes on to add in verse three, “For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness.” The faith that the apostle Paul is discussing here is in no other faith than that of the one true God of Israel. Abraham was looking forward to the promise and although he may not have understood the Tri-unity of God per se, he did seek the one true God found only in the Scriptures that was made manifest in Jesus the Christ. The salvation of Abraham was found in no other faith than the one in which God established with him.16

There's no reason to take Pinnock's claim as promoting a "works" righteousness.

Calvin helps us out here using Cornelius, the first gentile convert as an example:

4. They quote the saying of Peter as given by Luke in the Acts, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34, 35). And hence they infer, as a thing which seems to them beyond a doubt, that if man by right conduct procures the favor of God, his obtaining salvation is not entirely the gift of God. Nay, that when God in his mercy assists the sinner, he is inclined to mercy by works…Cornelius being endued with true wisdom, in other words, with the fear of God, must have been enlightened by the Spirit of wisdom, and being an observer of righteousness, must have been sanctified by the same Spirit; righteousness being, as the Apostle testifies, one of the most certain fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:5). Therefore, all those qualities by which he is said to have pleased God he owed to divine grace: so far was he from preparing himself by his own strength to receive it.
From Institutes of the Christian Religion

note that all this happened before Peter taught Cornelius the "message through which [they would] be saved." (And by this, we can know that salvation is not the mere escape of hell but is much broader...I think calvin is astute to make observatoins that show that conelius was not a hell bound sort of person prior to Peter's visit).


but he added an unwarranted assumption that some of the people discussed in the text were pagans.

It's an unwarrented assumption that Rahab the prostitute of Jerico was a pagan? :huh:


How can these passages lead the readers of Pinnock’s work to believe what he has set forth in Hebrews is true?

they don't lead the reader one way or the other. But it does cohere with inclusivism especially in bolstering inclusivisms central claim. There is a superior revelation and dispensation of grace and of course the Jews would be morally culpable to turn their back on it for an inferior form of grace which would not be available to them since God had expectations for them.


Were there pagans considered to be included within God’s chosen people?

The choosen people are reconed through Abraham. Does that then mean that the old old testament saints were damned? Was enoch damned? Was Methusalah? Noah?

no the pagans were not choosen. escape from hell is not limited to the choosen.


He says to them they are not to intermarry with those outside of Israel (Deut. 7.3) and that when they enter into their lands they are to “tear down their alters, smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire (Deut. 7.5).” This does not sound a bit supportive to Pinnock’s belief that among God’s chosen there were pagan followers outside the nation of Israel.18

In fact, such data is crucial to the inclusivist understanding of other religions. God does not hate all other religions equally and some have rejected his available means of grace. God hated these religions, and yet he was


For orthodox believers, the only way a person can arrive at knowing Christ is via His word and no way else. In Romans 10.17 this is made clear by the apostle Paul who himself writes that, “…faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.”

So everyone in the old testament was damned?


Many Christians recall the sequences leading up to their salvation and conversion in Jesus. In this, many can account for a previous desire to know God in the moments that God was drawing them to himself. However, the believers who confess to this also confess that although they desired him (still not knowing him) they would not consider their subjective desires as acts towards faith in Christ.

I wouldn't put stock in this as the definitive description of the experience of all believers, and furthermore, I don't know that everyone would interpret their experiences properly.


The difference between the pagan, who offers a thirsty passer by a drink of water, and the difference between a Christian who does the same is motive. The pagan does it because he sees it as some good merit showing his good nature (or possibly in hopes something good will happen to him in return ect…), but the believer does it because it glorifies God and it shows appreciation for man created in the Imago Dei (image of God).

and I have no confidence in this myself. As a matter of fact, I know it's not biblical. Before conelius heard the "message through which [he would] be saved" His almsgiving and prayers went up before the Lord as a "memorial".


The Bible teaches that it is a cognitive imperative that man has a historical knowledge of Christ.

the biblical concept of knowledge is of personal relationship, not necessarily of correct comprehension of specific propositions. Jesus speaks of knowing those who showed comapassion, compassion to those whom Jesus identified with in their afflictions. And he speaks of not knowing those who preached in his name and performed signs.


Thus one can hear the groan of the broken heart of Paul over the Jewish nation when he writes:

they rejected the form of grace that was available to them, the best of all forms. They rejected Jesus. This fits perfectly with the inclusivist picture.


Confession of Jesus Christ as Lord is essential in the Christian faith and cannot go unnoticed. If confession was not important in salvation, Paul would not have written it. If confession of Jesus was not important he himself would not had made mention of it. In Matthew 10.32-33 Jesus said:

important and necessary are not the same thing.


It then cannot be stated by Pinnock that confession of our glorious Lord is not needed.

that really did not constitute an arguement against Sanders claim. Sanders wasn't trying to say that the text could be used to demonstrate the inclusivist position. He was claiming compatibility with the text. No the inclusivist cannot say that this text really supports inclusivism but neither can the restrictivist.


From Genesis to Revelation the Bible has shown itself to be a timeless piece and has shown it self to be written to give light unto the world and guidance to God’s chosen.

Paul said that God had other means.

Acts 17

26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.


for who would need to believe?

everyone needs to believe, to respond to the grace of God available to them, and everyone is responsible to respond to the best form of grace available. And finally, everyone needs to here the message of Jesus because it is through Jesus that God establishes his most intimate relationship with us. But God is not without resources without that the explicit message.

Jeremy Oxford
March 4th 2004, 06:05 PM
the answer is that they certainly can and have been proven crucial in bringing pagans to Christ. Roberto De Nobili for example went to India and adopted certain indian customs and familiarized himself with the Hindu texts and used these to bring the Hindus to Christ. He converted many Brahmins and such success in this most inpenetrable caste has not been reproduced.

That is fine, I do agree with being familiar with ther texts and religions in doing apologetics/missions....However the Bible does not teach that they can remain in what they formerly knew. Repentence must take place in every area of Life, that is euangelion ruth. An Hindu can be converted, I agree, but he will no longer be a Hindu and adhere to Hindu spiritualiy or religion. To state other wise is simply just not what the scripture teaches.

Now I re
call a story in a class in world religions. It refered to the custom of ancient missionaries and translators to translate God's name in a culture new to the Gospel using the name of an ancient and almost forgotten God in that culture. And this is beneficial to missions since the people get the message that God has indeed been working with them. The story refered to a missionary to china who saught to do this very thing. He translated the name of God into the name of an almost forgotten diety from that culture and the church grew and was successful. Then the vatican sent out orders telling the missionary that he had to use theos and not the Chinese name. The church died after that.

REPLY:I can not answer why the church grew and died. I can say that is bad Bible translation though to ascribe the name of a foreign diety to God. We would not call Allah Jesus, nor would we call him Jehovah. Why is this? Because it is not him, they do not share the same atributes in any way. You would not ascribe somones absolute name to a name other than what his name really is. My name is Jeremy, to get somone to like me or understand me I would not present myself as somone else, but rather I would be me. We should do the same thing ( I will go into furter detail latter concerning the sermon on Mars Hill below preached by Paul)


And of course who can forget Paul who dared quote a pagan Hymn to Zeus and identified the subject of that hymn as the creator God who he was going to proclaim to them?

REPLY: Did you forget to read the big "therefore" after that statement that Paul makes? Acts. 17.23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of worship, I also found and altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you." Paul, was not proclaiming the message of a pagan God to them. He was saying that the unknown God (i.e. the God that they did not know) Was in fact the creator of all the world and does not dwell in man made temples (Acts 17.24); Is not served with human hands (Acts 17.25); from one man created all nations and within them soveriegnly determined there times and inhabitations (Acts 17.26)
So what Paul does here is proclaim a God to these philosophers and seekers that they have never herd. These people believed in false gods that were utter opposites of these pagan gods. For which of them believed in a God who soveriegnly created all things and people and chose from them there times and places. The point of Paul's statment is that he contained the true knowledge of God, The true God revealed in the Old Testament and made Incarnate in the New Testament. Apart from the God of Paul no man has hope for eternity. Paul is very exculsivistic here and has not one hint of an inclusivism.



they have challenged this orthodox position on the grounds of another orthodox position. Inclusivism IS orthodox and as old as restrictivism (and probably even older as I contend that Paul was an inclusivist).

REPLY:Very well, I will give inclusivism may be nothing new, but was in no was an orthodox position of the Bible held by most AT ANY POINT in time; Noah did not believe this, nor, Abraham, nor Jacob, nor Moses, Nor Paul, nor Augustine, Calvin, Luther, and especially Jesus - who brought hs message from His Father.



There's no reason to take Pinnock's claim as promoting a "works" righteousness.

REPLY: There is much reason for believeing that Pinnock teaches a works rightousnes read the Wideness of God's Mercy in which he makes claims that good deeds done by people of "faith" are rightous deeds and are acredited to them as doing them unto Jesus indirectly. Not having faith in Jesus their good works are seen and are acounted as being deeds done to Jesus apart from faith to him with the outcome of their salvation; yeah that sounds like works to me.

Calvin helps us out here using Cornelius, the first gentile convert as an example:

4. They quote the saying of Peter as given by Luke in the Acts, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34, 35). And hence they infer, as a thing which seems to them beyond a doubt, that if man by right conduct procures the favor of God, his obtaining salvation is not entirely the gift of God. Nay, that when God in his mercy assists the sinner, he is inclined to mercy by works?Cornelius being endued with true wisdom, in other words, with the fear of God, must have been enlightened by the Spirit of wisdom, and being an observer of righteousness, must have been sanctified by the same Spirit; righteousness being, as the Apostle testifies, one of the most certain fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:5). Therefore, all those qualities by which he is said to have pleased God he owed to divine grace: so far was he from preparing himself by his own strength to receive it.
From Institutes of the Christian Religion

note that all this happened before Peter taught Cornelius the "message through which [they would] be sa
ved." (And by this, we can know that salvation is not the mere escape of hell but is much broader...I think calvin is astute to make observatoins that show that conelius was not a hell bound sort of person prior to Peter's visit).

REPLY:If he was already a believer why send Peter? What does Peter do when he gets there ? He Preaches the Gospel (Acts 10.34-43). What happens as he preaches the Gospel? The Holy Spirit descends on Cornilus and his family (Acts 10.44). The outcome of this? The entiles first recieve the Gospel and paved the way for all Gntile believers. Gentiles are now admitted into the family of God on the basis of their God authored faith in Jesus. Not inclusivistic!



It's an unwarrented assumption that Rahab the prostitute of Jerico was a pagan? :huh:

REPLY:Ah, yes, Rahab, what is the context? Not that of salvation. Rahab was spared for not telling the authorities of the Israelite spies that come to survey the land. Rahab gained their trust by hiding them. When Israel she met the stipulation that the spies gave her and along with herself her family survived and they were never illtreated by the Israelites. We are never told in the text that showed faith in the Lord as redeemer. (Joshua chapters 2-6)



they don't lead the reader one way or the other. But it does cohere with inclusivism especially in bolstering inclusivisms central claim. There is a superior revelation and dispensation of grace and of course the Jews would be morally culpable to turn their back on it for an inferior form of grace which would not be available to them since God had expectations for them.



The choosen people are reconed through Abraham. Does that then mean that the old old testament saints were damned? Was enoch damned? Was Methusalah? Noah?

REPLY:Read Hebrews 11, their faith in God was reconded unto them as rightousness. Plain and simple

no the pagans were not choosen. escape from hell is not limited to the choosen.

REPLY:escape from hell is limted to God's elect other wise we would be universalist. Jesus said that, "I am the way the truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me" (John 14.6) In Genesis 3.14-15 God makes a covenat with the devil that he will crsh him. Man since Adam that Adheres to God's Law and his word have looked for to this prior to Christ, Christ is the fulfillment of this. Adam and Eve took stock in the promise, Noah took stock in the promise, Abraham took stock in the promise, and all those who placed hope in this recieved the outcome of the salvation of their souls.



In fact, such data is crucial to the inclusivist understanding of other religions. God does not hate all other religions equally and some have rejected his available means of grace. God hated these religions, and yet he was



So everyone in the old testament was damned?

REPLY:Answered in the above stament. Their faith in the future promise of the coming Messiah was their hope.



I wouldn't put stock in this as the definitive description of the experience of all believers, and furthermore, I don't know that everyone would interpret their experiences properly.

REPLY:That is fine, this is an issue of subjective perspective based upon my experience



and I have no confidence in this myself. As a matter of fact, I know it's not biblical. Before conelius heard the "message through which [he would] be saved" His almsgiving and prayers went up before the Lord as a "memorial".



the biblical concept of knowledge is of personal relationship, not necessarily of correct comprehension of specific propositions. Jesus speaks of knowing those who showed comapassion, compassion to those whom Jesus identified with in their afflictions. And he speaks of not knowing those who preached in his name and performed signs.

REPLY:You could be no further from the Bible on this point if. Why not just be a mormon then, or a Muslim, Zen Buhdist, New Ager, neo-pagen, etc... I must have forgotten the refference that any faith is acounted as rightouness for the vindication of sin. Jesus must be comprhended, if not just lock yourself up in a room and not be an evangelical, since there is no purpose in evangelism. It will save you a lot of persecution and grief if you do. Or just not preach Jesus and tell everyone to have a genuine faith. You may get furthere than I.



they rejected the form of grace that was available to them, the best of all forms. They rejected Jesus. This fits perfectly with the inclusivist picture.

REPLY:But why worry, they believed in God, just as others do.



important and necessary are not the same thing



that really did not constitute an arguement against Sanders claim. Sanders wasn't trying to

say that the text could be used to demonstrate the inclusivist position. He was claiming compatibility with the text. No the inclusivist cannot say that this text really supports inclusivism but neither can the restrictivist.



Paul said that God had other means.

Acts 17

26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.



everyone needs to believe, to respond to the grace of God available to them, and everyone is responsible to respond to the best form of grace available. And finally, everyone needs to here the message of Jesus because it is through Jesus that God establishes his most intimate relationship with us. But God is not without resources without that the explicit message.
:wink:

REPLY:This is illogical, if comprhension of Jesus is not needed to understand him why make a message around him important. The out come of Inclusivism robs the zeal and urgency of Gospel proclamation.

Jeremy Oxford
March 4th 2004, 10:47 PM
I must apologize for a bad statement that I made previoulsy in my last reply in which I said:

REPLY:Ah, yes, Rahab, what is the context? Not that of salvation. Rahab was spared for not telling the authorities of the Israelite spies that come to survey the land. Rahab gained their trust by hiding them. When Israel she met the stipulation that the spies gave her and along with herself her family survived and they were never illtreated by the Israelites. We are never told in the text that showed faith in the Lord as redeemer. (Joshua chapters 2-6)

I stand corrected by a missed text, but Hebrews 11.32 points out the fact that Rahab was a convert and that her act in aiding the spies was an act of faith, not in general, but in specific that lead to her salvation. Her act was in submission to the knowledge of the God of Israel and this faith wrought by God through revelation, gave her the security of the salvation of her soul. She had herd of this God in prior and came to trust him through his witness amongst the nations.

geebob
March 6th 2004, 06:17 PM
However the Bible does not teach that they can remain in what they formerly knew. Repentence must take place in every area of Life, that is euangelion ruth. An Hindu can be converted, I agree, but he will no longer be a Hindu and adhere to Hindu spiritualiy or religion. To state other wise is simply just not what the scripture teaches.

excellent. to state otherwise is simply just not what inclusivism teaches either.


Repentence must take place in every area of Life, that is euangelion ruth.

from the Babylonian text Prayer to Any God:

"the sin I have sinned-turn thou to good; the transgression I have commited - may the wind carry away! My iniquities (which are) many- like a garment strip off. My god- the transgressions, seven times seven, my transgressions forgive."

from Documents from Old Testament Times Ed D. Winston Thomas p. 114


I can say that is bad Bible translation though to ascribe the name of a foreign diety to God.

then even the original hebrew is a bad translation. El was also the name of a canaanite god. A specific god. The greek concept of Theos had much in it that was not compatible with Yahweh. SO both notions had to be cleaned up in revelation, and this process should continue. We should show people how God has been at work with them and clean up their concept of God when necessary.


We would not call Allah Jesus, nor would we call him Jehovah. Why is this?

good question. Allah would be a better translation for theos or el if we were translating into arabic where "allah" means "the God". Jesus is transliterated "issa" (or something like that) and Yahweh should also be transliterated unless one wants to go with the tradition of Jews and Christians and substitute it with Lord.


My name is Jeremy, to get somone to like me or understand me I would not present myself as somone else, but rather I would be me.

the bible doesn't present "el" as the father of the gods who is a heavy drinker who marries two women who give birth to the canaanite pantheon.


Did you forget to read the big "therefore" after that statement that Paul makes? Acts. 17.23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of worship, I also found and altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you." Paul, was not proclaiming the message of a pagan God to them.

of course not. he's proclaiming that they worshipped the true God with a degree of ignorance... ignorance that he would remedy, ignorance that was not total as his refference to the hymn and philosophy demonstrate, thus showing that though they know little of this God whom they worshiped, He is not a forign God as the philosophers worried of at the beginning of this section.


He was saying that the unknown God (i.e. the God that they did not know) Was in fact the creator of all the world and does not dwell in man made temples (Acts 17.24); Is not served with human hands (Acts 17.25); from one man created all nations and within them soveriegnly determined there times and inhabitations (Acts 17.26)

exactly. those are inclusivist thoughts.


So what Paul does here is proclaim a God to these philosophers and seekers that they have never herd.

no he didn't. he quoted one of their hymns and ascribed it to our God and he attributed the alter to the unknown God to our God. So it wasn't completely forign.


For which of them believed in a God who soveriegnly created all things and people and chose from them there times and places.

the stoics mentioned were determinists. They certainly believed that that God created all things and people and choose for them the times and places if they were determinists. paul worked with it using stoic claim that "in him we live and move and have our being.'"

Interesting you should bring up that claim that God choose the times and places for peoples. Why did he do this?

"27that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, "(ESV)

So God used a method which he "hoped" would lead mean to find him. Well that was pointless... especially for those nations that died out before missionary groups ever reached them (if there positioning was just for that).


There is much reason for believeing that Pinnock teaches a works rightousnes read the Wideness of God's Mercy in which he makes claims that good deeds done by people of "faith" are rightous deeds and are acredited to them as doing them unto Jesus indirectly.

you may have a subtle disagreement with pinnock and works rightessness. God does accredit good works to us. He will say "well done good and faithful servant". Does that mean that they "earned" salvatoin? not at all. but the quote from calvin demonstrates this. You missed the point with that. I apologize for distracting you from this with a further point, but you failed to deal with the passage from calvin as applied to pinnock's claim or a similar claim that can be made that would be more compatible with the notion I assume you hold that no moral good can be attributed even to people whom God has enabled to act righteously.


What happens as he preaches the Gospel? The Holy Spirit descends on Cornilus and his family (Acts 10.44). The outcome of this?

so are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit was not at work in cornelius prior to his conversion? Are you suggesting that cornelius gave alms and made prayers to God that went before him as a "memorial" on his own accord?

And if Cornelius wasn't saved, then what was the point of Paul's confession

"Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. "


REPLY:Read Hebrews 11, their faith in God was reconded unto them as rightousness. Plain and simple

thus acknowledgement of Jesus is not strictly necessary in every case to have a saving faith.


In Genesis 3.14-15 God makes a covenat with the devil that he will crsh him. Man since Adam that Adheres to God's Law and his word have looked for to this prior to Christ, Christ is the fulfillment of this... Answered in the above stament. Their faith in the future promise of the coming Messiah was their hope.

Rahab looked foward to this?


I must have forgotten the refference that any faith is acounted as rightouness for the vindication of sin.

the inclusivists are more catious than this. I hardly doubt that it is just any faith. Inclusivists don't attempt to answer this dogmatically but have left open as to the range of what consistitutes appropriate faith. MAinly, we stick to an open statement of insisting that however that faith is manifested, it is manifested as an appropriate response to the Grace of God that is available. we look evidence pointing to this possibility and we see what strongly appears to be evidence of this in the examples such as the babylonian prayer and the alter to the unknown God, and we hold that though scriptures point to and imply this position, it is not explained thoroughly.


FROM ME:
they rejected the form of grace that was available to them, the best of all forms. They rejected Jesus. This fits perfectly with the inclusivist picture.

REPLY:But why worry, they believed in God, just as others do.

because as I said they rejected the form of grace that was available to them, the best of all forms. They rejected Jesus. This fits perfectly with the inclusivist picture. As a matter of fact, it is central to the inclusivist position.


Her act was in submission to the knowledge of the God of Israel and this faith wrought by God through revelation,

The God of israel has revealed himself to all men. (Rom 1:19) He MADE himself known. And many respond to this truth as best they can with what they know such as we see in the babylonian prayer.


Why not just be a mormon then, or a Muslim, Zen Buhdist, New Ager, neo-pagen,

why hold to reletivity and quantum dynamics and a round earth when newtonian physics and the flat earth view have been useful. Because there is a superior understanding which goes deeper into the nature of reality!


If he was already a believer why send Peter?...if not just lock yourself up in a room and not be an evangelical, since there is no purpose in evangelism... But why worry, they believed in God, just as others do...This is illogical, if comprhension of Jesus is not needed to understand him why make a message around him important. The out come of Inclusivism robs the zeal and urgency of Gospel proclamation.

Why should calvinists decide to evangelize if God has ordained everyone's destiny to hell or heaven. (I assume you're a calvinist with your remark about the reformed tradition) because we don't know who's who say some calvinist. on the contrary, we can know that God has not predestined those who have not been evangelized, and we can know that God has not ordained the means of one individuals evangelical actions if that person doesn't go out and do it.

Here's RC Sproul's answer and the same applies to inclusivism. God commanded us to. That should be enough reason. Shouldn't Christians want to obey God?

But there are more reasons.

most inclusivists suspect that fewer people will escape damnation from hell who do not here the message than those who do hear the message. Shouldn't we want as many people to be saved as possible? And why shouldn't be the case that more would be saved who hear the gospel than otherwise do not? The Holy spirits convicting activity increases with the spreading of the word.

What responsible fireman would refuse to run into a burning building to save the lives of people inside simply because he reasoned that it would be possible for them to get out alive on their own?

next, don't you want the best for them? should we restrict the best that God has in store for them to merely escaping hell? Don't you want them to have greater intamacy that greater knowledge, specifically knowledge of Christ provides?

Should we reduce the only reason for accepting the gospel to escaping hell? Is that the heart and soul of the gospel message? Or is it much broader than that, that God loves us and wants us to know him better. If your only reason for accepting the gospel is to escape hell, then that might make it irrational. But we should give the importance of the gospel more credit.

Daywalker
March 10th 2004, 05:44 PM
REPLY:This is illogical, if comprhension of Jesus is not needed to understand him why make a message around him important. The out come of Inclusivism robs the zeal and urgency of Gospel proclamation.



Because tweb's official ewok is on the case, I will leave the thread with this comment:
In the Theology 201 section I have 2 threads that I have done in favor of Inclusivism. They are easy enough to find...both threads carry a title similiar to "Inclusivism-Is salvation for the simple AND the scholar?" Ironically, I had never even HEARD of the concept until I adopted the view from my own studies. I have read only one article on the subject in favor of it in a book called "Across the Spectrum" (put out by Greg Boyd and others). When I was an EXCLUSIVIST I had it ingrained into my mind that the lost all deserved this thing called "eternal torment" anyway, so it did not matter if they heard of Christ-they still had sins to pay for. If we told them about Christ (which I was taught that we were commanded to do-and without it they had NO CHANCE) it was more than they had a RIGHT to anyway! So, either way, God was off the hook.
Sad...
Here is the problem...WHEN did that magical moment in time come when men FIRST were required to hear about the cross of Christ to be saved? It stands to reason that IF men did not always know about the cross TO BE SAVED before the cross, then we have a huge, huge loophole.

Jesus himself waited until LATER in his ministry to even MENTION his death (and Peter REJECTED IT-" :ahem: "):

Matt. 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell
no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his
disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and
suffer many things of the elders and chief priests
and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the
third day.
16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying,
Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto
thee.

In fact, the 12 apostles not only did not know understand the cross, but any time Christ mentioned it, he HID its understanding from them AND they were afraid to even ask him about it- yet they were children of God (minus Judas):

Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The
Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and
they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he
shall rise the third day.
9:32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid
to ask him.

Lk. 9:43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God.
But while they wondered every one at all things which
Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,
9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the
Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
9:45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid
from them, that they perceived it not: and they
feared to ask him of that saying.

Lk. 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto
them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things
that are written by the prophets concerning the Son
of man shall be accomplished.
18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and
shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and
spitted on:
18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death:
and the third day he shall rise again.
18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this
saying was hid from them, neither knew they the
things which were spoken.

Question: SINCE the 12 COULD NOT have preached the cross, why in the world would God want to legalistically demand that all men know it TODAY to be saved?

Another thought: What DID they preach?

Not everybody knew about the actual atonement the moment he was raised from the dead. SO, when did that magical moment in time come when men MUST KNOW about the cross to be saved?

The obvious conclusion is that it never did. God would not make it harder to get saved NOW then he did prior to the cross. If he did, he plundged men into a desperate state! :eek:

Daywalker
March 10th 2004, 06:41 PM
What is ironic about the whole thing is this...
Obviously there are "times" in the scriptures when it is best to NOT mention the cross in order for a person to be saved. God always does the best thing. Evidently, the best thing was to not have his own preach the cross at one time.
Think about it.
The 12 were told by Christ to preach OTHER THINGS, but not the cross (before the cross).

AVmetro
March 21st 2004, 07:15 PM
I think one can certainly see the underlying presupposition in the above replies viz that if inclusivism is not a reality, then God is not "fair." I don't find this to be a basis for argument in any sense leaving the other arguments presented unconvincing.

Daywalker
March 21st 2004, 07:37 PM
I think one can certainly see the underlying presupposition in the above replies viz that if inclusivism is not a reality, then God is not "fair." I don't find this to be a basis for argument in any sense leaving the other arguments presented unconvincing.
Yeah, it was unfair for God, if he were an exclusivist, to lead mean to have inclusivist thoughts based upon the above mentioned texts. Well, it would see that the biblical writers certainly share our presuppisitions. Strange. :innocent:


:lmbo:

AVmetro
March 21st 2004, 08:06 PM
Day Walker stated:

Yeah, it was unfair for God, if he were an exclusivist, to lead mean to have inclusivist thoughts based upon the above mentioned texts. Well, it would see that the biblical writers certainly share our presuppisitions.

First, I didn't see "inclusivism" necessiated in any text cited. I suppose any group could say, "Why did God lead men to believe _____ based upon X texts."


Day Walker stated:

...8<...

When I was an EXCLUSIVIST I had it ingrained into my mind that the lost all deserved this thing called "eternal torment" anyway, so it did not matter if they heard of Christ-they still had sins to pay for. If we told them about Christ (which I was taught that we were commanded to do-and without it they had NO CHANCE) it was more than they had a RIGHT to anyway! So, either way, God was off the hook.
Sad...

"God was off the hook" Statments like these as well as a use of all CAPS tells us plainly the presuppositions underlying the argument. That is, "it is not fair of God to condemn those who haven't heard." The mistake here is confusing the acts of grace and mercy with those of justice and punishment. "Fair" is 1.] you sin 2.] you die. Quite simple. Mercy and grace are the perorogatives of God. If it was God's decision to let all of mankind die and suffer eternal torment, a cry of "unfair" from our party isn't going to carry relevance or truthfulness.


Day Walker stated:

Here is the problem...WHEN did that magical moment in time come when men FIRST were required to hear about the cross of Christ to be saved? It stands to reason that IF men did not always know about the cross TO BE SAVED before the cross, then we have a huge, huge loophole.

From the above statment, it would naturally follow that if the knowledge of Christ's sacrifice is irrelevant, then the NT is irrelevant. In fact, preaching the gospel would be irrelevant. Am I mistaken or does Inclusivism seem to lead to Universalism?

By "before the cross" are you implying that man can be saved _outside of_ the cross or _outside of knowledge of_ the cross? Would you say that God applied the atoning work of Christ to certain men, somehow, before the sacrifice became a reality? Are you a Universalist as well? I ask this last question, because it seems that if the atonement of Christ can simply be applied to "anyone" sans a knowledge of Christ's work, then it would naturally follow from your conception of God's "fairness" that all men are, or at least, should be saved.

-AV

Daywalker
March 21st 2004, 08:31 PM
First, I didn't see "inclusivism" necessiated in any text cited. I suppose any group could say, "Why did God lead men to believe _____ based upon X texts."



"God was off the hook" Statments like these as well as a use of all CAPS tells us plainly the presuppositions underlying the argument. That is, "it is not fair of God to condemn those who haven't heard." The mistake here is confusing the acts of grace and mercy with those of justice and punishment. "Fair" is 1.] you sin 2.] you die. Quite simple. Mercy and grace are the perorogatives of God. If it was God's decision to let all of mankind die and suffer eternal torment, a cry of "unfair" from our party isn't going to carry relevance or truthfulness.



From the above statment, it would naturally follow that if the knowledge of Christ's sacrifice is irrelevant, then the NT is irrelevant. In fact, preaching the gospel would be irrelevant. Am I mistaken or does Inclusivism seem to lead to Universalism?

By "before the cross" are you implying that man can be saved _outside of_ the cross or _outside of knowledge of_ the cross? Would you say that God applied the atoning work of Christ to certain men, somehow, before the sacrifice became a reality? Are you a Universalist as well? I ask this last question, because it seems that if the atonement of Christ can simply be applied to "anyone" sans a knowledge of Christ's work, then it would naturally follow from your conception of God's "fairness" that all men are, or at least, should be saved.

-AV
Wow. That was a great arguement! Now just think, if I had supplied verses, I would of had a point. :cheers:

AVmetro
March 21st 2004, 08:47 PM
Day Walker stated:

Wow. That was a great arguement! Now just think, if I had supplied verses, I would of had a point.

?

I'm mainly asking a few questions and I don't suppose you're privy to respond other than with a few smilies. Okay, thanks for your time.

-AV

Daywalker
March 21st 2004, 09:04 PM
?

I'm mainly asking a few questions and I don't suppose you're privy to respond other than with a few smilies. Okay, thanks for your time.

-AV
Okay, let's try this...
CHrist NEVER preached the cross until Matt. 16 ("from that time forth"). Even THEN, there is no mention of an atonement. Peter rejected what little he knew of the cross.
Was Peter going to Hell? WHy or why not?

Matt. 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell
no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his
disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and
suffer many things of the elders and chief priests
and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the
third day.
16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying,
Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto
thee.

:ponder:

AVmetro
March 21st 2004, 09:48 PM
Hello, Day Walker,


Day Walker stated:

Okay, let's try this...

Actually, I was hoping you would reply to my questions and the dilemma that I proposed is inherent with Inclusivism.

Anyhow, as to your question:


Day Walker stated:

CHrist NEVER preached the cross until Matt. 16 ("from that time forth"). Even THEN, there is no mention of an atonement. Peter rejected what little he knew of the cross.
Was Peter going to Hell? WHy or why not? [cites Matt 16:20]

Understand that I don't see the relevance of Christ "not preaching the cross" at that given time. It's like asking, "Was Peter a new creation in Christ at this moment?" In fact, most if not all of the cites you provide are from Christ's earthly ministry. What about after the fact. This I think important as it bears relevance on us today i.e. a time after the resurretion of Christ. When, for example, in the book of Acts is the "cross" placed on the backburner (excluded altogether) in the apostles ministry? If knowledge of the cross is irrelevant to begin, why do they have a ministry at all?

Back to Peter; Bear in mind, I have Calvinist leanings and would explain thusly:

John 6:37 "All that the Father has given Me will come to Me,.."

Here we have an all-inclusive (grin) statement. The two-step process is patently simply; ALL (not some, not most) that the Father 1.] GIVES (as children of God) to the Son 2.] WILL (not, "may") come to the Son. What does "coming" entail in the context of John 6? Vs 37 is an explanation of vs 36, "But I said to you that you have seen Me and _do not believe_." Belief (faith) in Christ is equivalent to "coming" to Christ. Peter did in fact come to Christ and we have two inspired epistles bearing his name today. Did Christ say, "*some* of those the Father gives Me will come to Me"? No.

Muslims do not _come_ to Christ. Muslims are not saved.

Buddists do not _come_ to Christ. Buddists are not saved.

Hindus do not _come_ to Christ. Hindus are not saved.

Which means that the three named above are excluded from the "all" which are "given" to Christ. Quite simple.

All of which sheds light on the following: "I am the way, the truth and the Life. No one _comes_ to the Father except _through_ me."

-

John 10:26 "But you do not _believe_, BECAUSE you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep _hear my voice_, and I know them and they follow Me."

If you do not believe on Christ you are not of His sheep i.e. you are not saved.

Muslims do not _believe_ on Christ. Muslims are not Christ's sheep.

Buddhists do not _believe_ on Christ. Buddhists are not saved.

Hindus do not _believe_ on Christ. Hindus are not saved.

The three named above do not "believe" on Christ. The requisites for "belief" are being a part of Christ's "sheep." Christ's "sheep" are those who are chosen for salvation. What can we then logically conclude?

In fact, scripture is quite plain on the state of those who are in unbelief:

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him in not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

-

John 17:3 "And THIS is eternal life, that they may _know You_, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

What does this necessarily entail for those who reject or do not know Christ?

Muslims do not _know_ Christ. Muslims are not saved.

Buddhists do not _know_ Christ. Buddhists are not saved.

Hindus do not _know_ Christ. Hindus are not saved.

The three named above do not initmately "know" Christ. Therefore they do no fulfill the requisites for "eternal life." The "this" of John 17:3.

It's the ultimate in eisegesis to insist that they are saved.

"Coming to Christ," "believing on Christ," and "intimately knowing Christ" are biblical requisites for the obtaining of eternal life. We even have an explicit statement to the condition of those who do not believe on Christ.

>

I cite you again,


Day Walker stated:CHrist NEVER preached the cross until Matt. 16 ("from that time forth"). Even THEN, there is no mention of an atonement.

I would ask you (and have above in my last post) is it IRrelevant AFTER He gives said command? Why or why not?

God bless--AV

Dee Dee Warren
March 22nd 2004, 07:16 AM
Metro, wow, that was very good. I never personally thought of that progression you used.

BenK
March 22nd 2004, 11:31 PM
I've never come accross the terms "inclusivist" and "exclusivist" before, but inclusivism seems to make more sense.



The mistake here is confusing the acts of grace and mercy with those of justice and punishment. "Fair" is 1.] you sin 2.] you die. Quite simple. Mercy and grace are the perorogatives of God. If it was God's decision to let all of mankind die and suffer eternal torment, a cry of "unfair" from our party isn't going to carry relevance or truthfulness.
This definition of "fair" is meaningless. To say that God is just and at the same time that God creates men with sin nature, and then for that sin nature condemns them to unceasing suffering for all eternity is to say precisely nothing about God anymore than it would be to say that God was at once square and circular. Better to say that God is we know not what.



By "before the cross" are you implying that man can be saved _outside of_ the cross or _outside of knowledge of_ the cross?
The latter.



Would you say that God applied the atoning work of Christ to certain men, somehow, before the sacrifice became a reality? Are you a Universalist as well? I ask this last question, because it seems that if the atonement of Christ can simply be applied to "anyone" sans a knowledge of Christ's work, then it would naturally follow from your conception of God's "fairness" that all men are, or at least, should be saved.
Why does this follow? If the choice to accept or reject the grace of God is not one and the same as the giving of intellectual assent to the historicity of the new testament then why would it cease to be a choice? Those who accept the Grace that is offered them are saved, those who reject it are damned. This doesn't nescessarily speak of belief or unbelief.

Daywalker
March 23rd 2004, 12:29 AM
Understand that I don't see the relevance of Christ "not preaching the cross" at that given time.

It is of MAJOR relevance to exclusivism because it opens up to the question of when was that "magic moment" IN TIME when all men MUST KNOW about the cross in order to be saved. You see, exclusivism is TOTALLY inconsistent to demand that men know "x" and only "x" to be saved if there were times when "x" was NOT REQUIRED by God for men to know. Moreover, it causes great problems for God to now condemn men for NOT KNOWING "x" if in fact "x" was a piece of knowledge which at one time men COULD NOT KNOW. Then we have the apex of all problems...If at one point God did not demand that men know "x" and then God CHANGES (ahhhhh...there is that word) his MIND and determines that men must NOW know "x" then he has introduced a curse to man, for not all knew of that event.


It's like asking, "Was Peter a new creation in Christ at this moment?" In fact, most if not all of the cites you provide are from Christ's earthly ministry. What about after the fact.
:stop:
What about what I just asked you? One issue at a time please...



This I think important as it bears relevance on us today i.e. a time after the resurretion of Christ. When, for example, in the book of Acts is the "cross" placed on the backburner (excluded altogether) in the apostles ministry? If knowledge of the cross is irrelevant to begin, why do they have a ministry at all?
First off, most of the time that Christ is preached you will he hard pressed to find the fact that he is God mention WITH the atonement (as opposed to just death) burial and resurrection. Most excluvisists are FORCED to INSERT THEM into the text through their pre established belief system. Where is the cross mentioned in Acts 9 by Paul to the Jews? It's not. Exlusivists are forced to add "oh, Luke either did not mention it, or God knew it was not worth mentioning there, or Paul just did not get that far" or something wilder than that instead of just acknowledging that the greatest soul winner that the Gentiles ever had NEVER MENTIONED IT and must have done so because it was right to NOT do so.


Back to Peter; Bear in mind, I have Calvinist leanings and would explain thusly:

John 6:37 "All that the Father has given Me will come to Me,.."
Then you have just admitted openly that you MUST rely on presuppisitions when dealing with Peter because you CAN NOT prove your point any other way. It is TOTALLY undefendable without going AROUND the text. :blush:


Here we have an all-inclusive (grin) statement. The two-step process is patently simply; ALL (not some, not most) that the Father 1.] GIVES (as children of God) to the Son 2.] WILL (not, "may") come to the Son. What does "coming" entail in the context of John 6? Vs 37 is an explanation of vs 36, "But I said to you that you have seen Me and _do not believe_." Belief (faith) in Christ is equivalent to "coming" to Christ. Peter did in fact come to Christ and we have two inspired epistles bearing his name today. Did Christ say, "*some* of those the Father gives Me will come to Me"? No.
First off, these are believers that are coming to Christ, not unbelievers. It is the saints that are coming. NOTE: The FATHER has ALREADY GIVEN THEM, of those that are already given, they shall come. They were already children of God before they came...they had already been quickened. It has nothing to do with a conversion from In Adam to In Christ. It is those IN CHRIST literally COMING to CHrist. They followed him just like Peter...this presents a powerful case for inclusivism.---"what did Peter know"? The cross? No, he rejected it (ahhhhh). Something different obviously.


Muslims do not _come_ to Christ. Muslims are not saved.

Buddists do not _come_ to Christ. Buddists are not saved.

Hindus do not _come_ to Christ. Hindus are not saved.
Yes they do...through general revelation, but I am not getting off of this Peter thing...
I am not going to let you get around my question, so I am going to delete most of the rest of your quote and restate my question. Please give me an answer this time if you would like a discourse

Okay, let's try this...
CHrist NEVER preached the cross until Matt. 16 ("from that time forth"). Even THEN, there is no mention of an atonement. Peter rejected what little he knew of the cross.
Was Peter going to Hell? WHy or why not?

Matt. 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell
no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his
disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and
suffer many things of the elders and chief priests
and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the
third day.
16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying,
Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto
thee.

It is going to look REALLY FUNNY if you call me an inclusivist yet have men getting saved WITHOUT ANY MESSAGE AT ALL, then learning about the cross as "the elect".

Daywalker
March 23rd 2004, 01:07 AM
Historically, the church until now has held to the validity of the Scriptural claim that Jesus is the only way of salvation and only in the Christian faith can one obtain a true knowledge which leads to salvation. Today that claim has been challenged by many evangelicals.
:attn:


“Can these other faiths point to the cross of Christ? Can man in his attempt to seek God come to God through Christ via an extra Biblical faith?” The Biblical answer to this question would be no.



The requisites for "belief" are being a part of Christ's "sheep." Christ's "sheep" are those who are chosen for salvation. What can we then logically conclude?

Okay, now again you see the relevance of my question with Peter.
Do you still wish to claim that a man must know about the cross IN ORDER TO BE LED TO salvation? One minute you have man needing to hear the cross in order to be LED TO salvation while the next minute they must be a sheep to hear the word. These two cancel eachother out. If they are sheep, then they are "the elect" BEFORE the cross is mentioned, thus the mentioning of the cross is POINTLESS. So, was Peter saved? :popcorn:

AVmetro
March 23rd 2004, 02:22 AM
Hi, Benjamin,

You stated:


Benjamin:

I've never come accross the terms "inclusivist" and "exclusivist" before, but inclusivism seems to make more sense.

Makes more sense in accord with what? Scripture or your perception of what consitutes fairness on God's part?


Benjamin stated:

This definition of "fair" is meaningless. To say that God is just and at the same time that God creates men with sin nature, and then for that sin nature condemns them to unceasing suffering for all eternity is to say precisely nothing about God anymore than it would be to say that God was at once square and circular. Better to say that God is we know not what.

Whether or not God "..creates men with sin nature and then for that sin nature condemns them.." is irrelevant. It's not necessarily related to the issue as non-calvinists would agree with me that inclusivism is unbiblical. Let's say that man sins of his own free-will. What is required on the part of God's justice? Does His just nature necessitate that He mercy any and all sinners? No. His just nature simply necessitates that He punish the sinner.


Benjamin stated:

The latter.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that point as to your view.


Benjamin stated:

Why does this follow? If the choice to accept or reject the grace of God is not one and the same as the giving of intellectual assent to the historicity of the new testament then why would it cease to be a choice? Those who accept the Grace that is offered them are saved, those who reject it are damned. This doesn't nescessarily speak of belief or unbelief.

Not certain I understand your argument here. What I will say is this; There isn't room for the argument, "doesn't necessarily speak of belief or unbelief" in scripture. I fail to see how "rejection/acceptance" aren't related to "belief/unbelief" in a salvific context. They are and heavy emphasis is placed on "belief" as a requisite for salvation (e.g. John 11:25,26 etc).

>

Rom 10:8-15 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
that if you a.) confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and b.) believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for

"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How then _will they call on Him_ in whom they have not _believed_?
How _will they believe_ in Him whom they have _not heard_?
And how _will they hear_ without a _preacher_?
How will they _preach_ unless they are _sent_?
Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!" [NASB]
Two things need be pointed out concerning the above:

1.] The above passage demonstrates the plight of the unevangelized. A supposed non-concern under the Inclusivism pardigm.

2.] The entire passage is rendered pointless and excessive if knowledge of Christ is, in reality, irrelevant to the evangelization process which is tied in with one's coming to Christ.

Somewhat akin to Mormonism, I suppose we would be more on the "safe side" being ignorant of Christianity than coming to a knowledge of it and potentially rejecting Christ.

These statements of "X explicit statement doesn't necessarily exclude Y view" just don't work. If they were true, then "belief" in Christ would cease to be a requisite for salvation. Yet time and time again belief is explicitly demonstrated to be just this. You cannot have it both ways. Why is belief shown in scripture to be a requirment for some and yet not for others? (!) Wouldn't you agree this to be inconsistent?

I would rather see objective evidence that necessitates the Inclusivism view over mine rather than a display of eisegesis and argument from emotionalism.


-


Hello, Day Walker,

You stated:


Day Walker:

It is of MAJOR relevance to exclusivism because it opens up to the question of when was that "magic moment" IN TIME when all men MUST KNOW about the cross in order to be saved. You see, exclusivism is TOTALLY inconsistent to demand that men know "x" and only "x" to be saved if there were times when "x" was NOT REQUIRED by God for men to know. Moreover, it causes great problems for God to now condemn men for NOT KNOWING "x" if in fact "x" was a piece of knowledge which at one time men COULD NOT KNOW. Then we have the apex of all problems...If at one point God did not demand that men know "x" and then God CHANGES (ahhhhh...there is that word) his MIND and determines that men must NOW know "x" then he has introduced a curse to man, for not all knew of that event.

Why then was it necessary for Christ to die at all if salvation was a possibility prior to Golgotha? I believe I've already answered your argument. Another fallacy with your argument, is that it assumes that man could be saved outside of the cross as is shown from the very examples you cite. If Peter was "saved" before the atoning death of Christ, then the death of Christ was irrelevant to his salvation, correct? See below, next.

I had stated:

It's like asking, "Was Peter a new creation in Christ at this moment?" In fact, most if not all of the cites you provide are from Christ's earthly ministry. What about after the fact.

You replied:


Day Walker stated:

What about what I just asked you? One issue at a time please...

My above question is necessary in placing your argument in the correct light. Your answer will answer your own argument.


Day Walker stated:

First off, most of the time that Christ is preached you will he hard pressed to find the fact that he is God mention WITH the atonement (as opposed to just death) burial and resurrection. Most excluvisists are FORCED to INSERT THEM into the text through their pre established belief system.
I'm having a hard time deciphering the above. Perhaps you misplaced the parenthesis? Are you implying (stating explicitly?) that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection have no bearing on the atonement? Clear this up next round if you would please. Thanks. I can, however, gurantee you I have no "pre established belief system." ;-)


Day Walker stated:

Where is the cross mentioned in Acts 9 by Paul to the Jews? It's not. Exlusivists are forced to add "oh, Luke either did not mention it, or God knew it was not worth mentioning there, or Paul just did not get that far" or something wilder than that instead of just acknowledging that the greatest soul winner that the Gentiles ever had NEVER MENTIONED IT and must have done so because it was right to NOT do so.
?!!

This isn't an argument. At least not one other than from sheer silence. Regarding chapter 9:

Vs 20 "preached Christ" - What does this entail?

Vs 27 "preached" - What does this entail?

Vs 29 "spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus" - Could you give specifics?

Vs 42 "many believed on the Lord." - Believed what?

Granted we don't have an explicit mention of the cross. However, we do not have an explicit statement that he did not! In fact, it is more likely that with other examples of detailed apostalic preaching, the above likely implies the preaching of the cross.
Of the three replies you cite from Exclusivists, I would concur with the first. But then what kind of objection could you possibily have to that? You sound much like the Unitarians who would insist that a certain text should say "X" in order for Christ to be true Deity. A true argument from silence. It doesn't work for them; it shouldn't be too surprising that it doesn't work for you.


Day Walker stated:

Then you have just admitted openly that you MUST rely on presuppisitions when dealing with Peter because you CAN NOT prove your point any other way. It is TOTALLY undefendable without going AROUND the text.

We were discussing inclusivism which is a salvation topic. I appealed to a passage very pertinent to the salvation process. I made my position very clear. Did you read it? Was there a "presupposition?" Please be more specific. Thank you.


Day Walker stated:

1.] First off, these are believers that are coming to Christ, not unbelievers. It is the saints that are coming. 2.] NOTE: The FATHER has ALREADY GIVEN THEM, of those that are already given, they shall come. 3.] They were already children of God before they came...they had already been quickened. It has nothing to do with a conversion from In Adam to In Christ. It is those IN CHRIST literally COMING to CHrist. They followed him just like Peter...this presents a powerful case for inclusivism.---"what did Peter know"? The cross? No, he rejected it (ahhhhh). Something different obviously.

Numerals above, mine:

1.] You've interpreted outside of context. As stated last post, vs 36 interprets vs 37. 2.] Being a Calvinist, I have of course noted the "giving" preceding the "coming." :-). "Given" doesn't mean present tense "saved", that's what they are coming to Him for; it means they are the elect predestined from the foundation of the world (e.g. Eph1:4 etc). Christ saves what He has been given. I have already demonstrated my last post that "coming" equates to "believing." How is this interpretation necessitated? See 3.] Again, context is the key, as always, to interpretation:

Vs 44 No one CAN _come to Me_ unless the Father who sent Me draws him; AND I will raise him up at the last day.

Have you noticed the nonsensical nature of your interpretation yet?

Again, note the following:

John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard {this} said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
John 6:61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
John 6:62 "{What} then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are LIFE.
John 6:64 "BUT there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "FOR THIS REASON I have said to you, that no one can COME TO ME unless it has been GRANTED him from the Father."
John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. [NASB]

See also vss 35, 41, 47, 48, 50, 53, 54, 57, 58, 63, 64 all of which possess salvific content.

Christ is clearly explaining the unbelief of a number of His "followers." Why do they not believe Him? Why do they stumble at His word? Because no one can come to Christ (they already "literally" came!) unless they are taught by the Father, unless they are drawn by the Father, unless they are given to Christ first prior to the subsequent "coming."

My short interpretation on John 10 further lends support having the same theme of "comign" = "belief" etc.


Day Walker stated:

Yes they do...through general revelation,

Name an explicit biblical example. Thanks.


Day Walker stated:

but I am not getting off of this Peter thing...

I don't want off the "Peter thing." I've responded more than adequately. Now I see my response has been snipped.


Day Walker stated:

I am not going to let you get around my question, so I am going to delete most of the rest of your quote and restate my question. Please give me an answer this time if you would like a discourse

Okay, let's try this...

CHrist NEVER preached the cross until Matt. 16 ("from that time forth"). Even THEN, there is no mention of an atonement. Peter rejected what little he knew of the cross.
Was Peter going to Hell? WHy or why not?

Matt. 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell
no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his
disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and
suffer many things of the elders and chief priests
and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the
third day.
16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying,
Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto
thee.

For a response to Day Walker's argument above, refer to this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=488077&postcount=14).


Day Walker stated:

It is going to look REALLY FUNNY if you call me an inclusivist yet have men getting saved WITHOUT ANY MESSAGE AT ALL, then learning about the cross as "the elect".

(?)


Day Walker stated:

Okay, now again you see the relevance of my question with Peter.
Do you still wish to claim that a man must know about the cross IN ORDER TO BE LED TO salvation? One minute you have man needing to hear the cross in order to be LED TO salvation while the next minute they must be a sheep to hear the word. These two cancel eachother out. If they are sheep, then they are "the elect" BEFORE the cross is mentioned, thus the mentioning of the cross is POINTLESS. So, was Peter saved?

First things first, be careful to avoid back to back posting.

Second, two the quotes in your last post are statements not made by
myself. Yet they are designated by "AVmetro."

Now..

No, there is no cancelation and really what you object to above isn't necessarily relevant to this discussion. Want biblical examples of what I believe? See Acts 13:48; 16:14. Notice the process. The issue is, can one possess salvation outside of a knowledge of the cross? Calvinists do not believe that there is one individual who, being saved, was not first elected and drawn to Christ by the Father. You believe Muslims are perfectly atoned for by a Christian God sans any knowledge of the true Christ. I believe only the elect, the Christians, are saved. See the essential difference? See the irrelevance this bears on our discussion regarding inclusivism?

>

All speaking of which, could I ask when the unevangelized Muslim becomes "saved?" (you stated earlier that some were) Being they never make a confession of faith, is there a particular point in time when God decides to save them w/o their knowledge of it? What is God's basis for saving them? Why doesn't He save all men (universalism)? Being that all good Muslims who read the Koran REJECT the Christian view of Christ (and therefore reject Christ Himself along with His message), how is it that any Muslim is "saved" in accordance with John 3:18? Thanks.

>

God bless--AV

Daywalker
March 23rd 2004, 02:34 AM
You know what?
I asked you for a yes or no as to whether or not Peter was a child of God without having to hear about the cross. You did not give a yes or no...you said everything BUT "yes" or "no". I said that if you did not do that that we would be done. And now we are. We are done.

AVmetro
March 23rd 2004, 02:38 AM
You know what?
I asked you for a yes or no as to whether or not Peter was a child of God without having to hear about the cross. You did not give a yes or no...you said everything BUT "yes" or "no". I said that if you did not do that that we would be done. And now we are. We are done.

IMHO, I feel that my replies were perfectly adequate. However, thanks for your time.

God blesss--AV

geebob
March 23rd 2004, 01:12 PM
metro


I think one can certainly see the underlying presupposition in the above replies viz that if inclusivism is not a reality, then God is not "fair." I don't find this to be a basis for argument in any sense leaving the other arguments presented unconvincing.

No it isn't and shouldn't be a basis. it's part of a cummulative case. It's about looking at the world and evidence wholistically, the only way to look at it if you are going to have an adequate grasp on the whole picture, and the repugnance of reprobation, even the sort that restrictivism implies is not an insignificant part of that picture and man metro, if you think thes the arguement that has been advanced rests upon that, you really didn't read my or daywalker's responses. I mean it is really obviouse to anyone who's read them because I relied on scripture and church traditions in spreading the gospel and if I spoke of the repugnance of reprobation, I didn't explain it.

But I have never taken that tact of unfairness anyway, at least not directly. My central beef with reprobation is articulated in at least two arguements in what I have called soteriological problems of evil from indescriminate love.

you see, any form of reprobation (defined as a set destiny towards hell for an individual even prior to his birth, and NOT to be confused with damnation) including restrictivism (exclusivism does not lead one to the conclusion that all the unevangelized are damned. Barth was an exclusivist, one who believes only christianity has the knowledge for salvation, and a universalist) is inconsistent with the laws God has given us and with his creation as it still functions as he intends it.

The two greatest commandments do not cohere with reprobation for the following reasons. You are to love your neighbor as yourself and you are to love God with all your being. Now the love of your neighbor depends upon how you do indeed love yourself (which even would require you to hate yourself so you might be saved... that's still self love). In loving yourself, could you praise and love and affirm God if he were to damn you and pass you over? Of course not. John is clear that we love him because he first loved us. So in loving yourself, there would be a dissatisfaction that God should fail to love you and work for your salvation. You would not be able to love God with all your being as God commanded us if you were unsaved. If that's what your self love entails, then why would you refuse to love your neighbor as yourself and expect God to work for their salvation? And if you are loving your neighbor as yourself for whom you can have no confidence that God is working towards their salvation, If you are loving them as yourself identifying their needs as your own, how can you continue to love God with all your being when it is the case that we love God because he loved us first and you are identifying your neighbor's need as your own who is not loved by God thus is not having his need (that you identigy as if it were your own) met in order to return love to God?

perhaps you could say that the unevangelized aren't among your neighbors and you would argue over the definition of what a neighbor is, but the second arguement does not have this issue

All reasonably psycologically healthy mothers have a hope and desire for the well being of their children. They often hope and expect for the best for their children. Now is this a corruption of sin? no it is the working of the creation of God and what he intends for them. It is a part of a system that God called good. But if reprobation is true, including reprobation via restrictivism (reprobation in virtue that the gospel is not within accessible reach), then the design for these children is to writhe in hell for eternity. In other words, this hope the mothers have is based on a lie, a lie God built into his creation and pronounced good. You have God creating according to the language of the father of lies.

I have not advanced these arguements above, but what these arguements accomplish is that they serve to unearth the repugnance of reprobation from our intuitions. They don't depend on some notion of fairness though perhaps that notion is not far off and is itself yet to be unearthed from intuitions. They depend upon the goodness, consistency, love, and perfection of God's creation that still function regardless of the taint of sin and God's law of christ which is perfect. They depend on that fact that the God who is love created his creatures to love indescriminately and he commanded us to love indescriminately. Reprobation mocks and disgraces this love.


The mistake here is confusing the acts of grace and mercy with those of justice and punishment.

justice and punishment come into play when we reject God's gracious and loving initiative and reject it utterly such that there is no way left. It is when we reject God working for our salvation. We are responsible for this.

but in the concepts of reprobation and restrictivism, there are persons who never had the salvific love and grace of God working for them thus there is no such basis for the rejection. Thus there is no real basis for justice and punishment. All wickedness is about violating the love God has and intends for us. God is love and his intentions and creation reflect that. and his justice reflects that.


From the above statment, it would naturally follow that if the knowledge of Christ's sacrifice is irrelevant, then the NT is irrelevant. In fact, preaching the gospel would be irrelevant. Am I mistaken or does Inclusivism seem to lead to Universalism?

this is the perpetual and flawed "all or nothing" thinking behind many of those who hold to restrictivism and reprobation (it comes up in calvinism for other issues. But of course you don't have to be a calvinist to be a restricitivist. Why you can even be reformed and be an inclusivist like Zwingli... but you wouldn't be an inclusivist for one of the big reasons that I am one, an absolute rejection of reprobation, there are plenty of other powerful reasons to be an inclusivist).

Salvation isn't about just escaping hell. It isn't about what's just necessary. Salvation is about being freed to love God without restraint (what a bankrupt view of the richness of salvation that says it is only about what's necessary to escape hell!). It's about relationship and relationships progress. The disciples didn't preach the cross not because it wasn't necessary for some reason, but because God's story of love did not progress that far. To be saved is to be in God's story of love. And for all people's everywhere, that story developes differently. It should eventually entail knowledge of what God has done for a people, but just like the old testament saints, there story even though it didn't include the gospel was a story that could continue to progress after their deaths even towards the death and ressurection.


Would you say that God applied the atoning work of Christ to certain men, somehow, before the sacrifice became a reality?

would you say all the old testament saints were damned?


because it seems that if the atonement of Christ can simply be applied to "anyone" sans a knowledge of Christ's work, then it would naturally follow from your conception of God's "fairness" that all men are, or at least, should be saved.

that's not inclusivism. All men are responsible to respond to the grace of God that is available to them. If they do not respond, the responsibility falls on there own heads and not on the failure of missionaries or God to fail to bring them saving knowledge. They had a real chance and they lost it though God worked even for them.


In fact, most if not all of the cites you provide are from Christ's earthly ministry. What about after the fact.

after the fact is not relevent to peoples who are still geographically B.C. including peoples who only know of a corrupted gospel that has little to nothing to do with the truth.


The two-step process is patently simply

the two step process is controversial. This is only applied to believers. in that passage you could argue either way that they believe because God had given them previously to the son and you could argue that God gave them to the son because they had believed (which is not to say that they didn't have a gracious initiative). Jesus shall lose none of the believers. But what if you cease to believe? then you are no longer a part of that group that will not be lost.

But more to the point and not to digress to much, how much belief were they supposed to have? The bible never clarifies this. Jesus tells those people that they have to believe in him. Well obviously they do because they are responsible to react towards what God has given them. But God has not given the revelation of the incarnate son to all men.

So if you have to believe in the incarnate son who lived, died, and was ressurected inthe first century, then all the old testament saints were damned. Of course you could suggest that they looked forward to a coming messiah, but that isn't clear that all the old testament saints believed that. It is a stretch to insist that Rahab believed in a coming incarnate messiah. That's not the faith that she was credited with in hebrews 11. By faith, she welcomed the spies.

And did not the pharasees look forward to a messiah? the messaih they looked forward to was every bit as biblical as the messiah that Jesus was. They too anchored their hopes in scriptures, scriptures that they interpreted according to similar methods that the christians did.

Inclusivists agree that belief is required. But what belief? the bible is not dogmatic for all peoples at all times and places. Those who hear the word have a responsibility. and what about those who haven't heard the gospel narrative?

Well as Paul said, the word has gone out into all the the earth. (Rom 10) And did that word always take the form of the gospel narrative? Not according to the psalm Paul quoted.

psalm 19:

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard. [1]
4 Their voice [2] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,
5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is hidden from its heat.

How facinating that the word, which in this form we westerners have identified as general revelation is likened to a bridegroom! Surely the son has been at work in other cultures apart from his most favored work as incarnate. And here we have a powerful connection, for the word, the logos is everywhere at work and logos christology amongst the greek fathers was a precursor to inclusivism and of course led many of them to an explicit inclusivistic stance such as Justin Martyr.


John 10:26 "But you do not _believe_, BECAUSE you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep _hear my voice_, and I know them and they follow Me."

so thus everyone who does not believe is not a sheep, thus anyone who does not believe can't ever believe. With this interpretation just how do you explain converts?


John 3:18 "He who believes in Him in not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

again this poses an interesting problem for reprobationists including restrictivists. there are no saved unbelievers. He who believes in him not is already condemned. So if you believe that there are elect unbelievers (people who have yet to believe) then you believe something contrary to this verse. and individualistic election does entail that there are elect unbelievers contrary to this verse which says that unbelievers are damned.

but of course, with psalm 19 and logos christology, you can see why it isn't necessary even to give up such a calvinistic view in light of the fact that belief on Christ can take less historically aware forms (though not completely, for many of these people believe in a creator and a provider both of which anchors God's activity in history).


"Coming to Christ," "believing on Christ," and "intimately knowing Christ" are biblical requisites for the obtaining of eternal life.

then you've damned all the old testament saints who did not recieve what was promised (heb 11). Well of course these are not prerequisites. they are eventualities as knowing Christ is necessary. But when is it necessary? well, we know it doesn't have to be immeadiate for those who haven't heard because after all, of those who were faithful "none of them received what had been promised." But now we have. We have in christ. We have in that now we can "[Come] to Christ," "[believe] on Christ," and "intimately [know] Christ"

bigbull
March 26th 2004, 12:29 AM
It is of MAJOR relevance to exclusivism because it opens up to the question of when was that "magic moment" IN TIME when all men MUST KNOW about the cross in order to be saved. You see, exclusivism is TOTALLY inconsistent to demand that men know "x" and only "x" to be saved if there were times when "x" was NOT REQUIRED by God for men to know. Moreover, it causes great problems for God to now condemn men for NOT KNOWING "x" if in fact "x" was a piece of knowledge which at one time men COULD NOT KNOW. Then we have the apex of all problems...If at one point God did not demand that men know "x" and then God CHANGES (ahhhhh...there is that word) his MIND and determines that men must NOW know "x" then he has introduced a curse to man, for not all knew of that event.


The knowledge of the cross is not the critical issue. Salvation is not from knowledge of the cross, it is from faith in the future/present/past act of Christ in dying in obedience to God for our sins. Salvation is and was the same in the OT and the NT (Hebrews 11,12) and the need was known adequately from Genesis 3 onward.

The story of Ninevah is a good example of what is involved.

God has never changed, and the use of different means along the way does not mean that He has changed. It is a bit like the icon list, there are several, but using only one doesn't change the list.

While some take the view that a faithful worship of any god (C.S. Lewis, soldier and tash) is enough for inclusion, the question becomes "what is faithful" service. Eventually this becomes works if it is not faith granted from outside oneself.

The pitfalls of the "openness" view are many, but they don't revolve around the preaching of the cross.

geebob
March 26th 2004, 10:09 AM
The pitfalls of the "openness" view are many, but they don't revolve around the preaching of the cross.

I don't see a promotion of openness in Daywalker's quote above (although he is openness). As a matter of fact, he seemed to indicate that rejecting inclusivism would imply the openness claim that God changes his mind.

GrayPilgrim
March 27th 2004, 11:33 PM
It is of MAJOR relevance to exclusivism because it opens up to the question of when was that "magic moment" IN TIME when all men MUST KNOW about the cross in order to be saved. You see, exclusivism is TOTALLY inconsistent to demand that men know "x" and only "x" to be saved if there were times when "x" was NOT REQUIRED by God for men to know. Moreover, it causes great problems for God to now condemn men for NOT KNOWING "x" if in fact "x" was a piece of knowledge which at one time men COULD NOT KNOW. Then we have the apex of all problems...If at one point God did not demand that men know "x" and then God CHANGES (ahhhhh...there is that word) his MIND and determines that men must NOW know "x" then he has introduced a curse to man, for not all knew of that event.


The knowledge of the cross is not the critical issue. Salvation is not from knowledge of the cross, it is from faith in the future/present/past act of Christ in dying in obedience to God for our sins. Salvation is and was the same in the OT and the NT (Hebrews 11,12) and the need was known adequately from Genesis 3 onward.

The story of Ninevah is a good example of what is involved.

God has never changed, and the use of different means along the way does not mean that He has changed. It is a bit like the icon list, there are several, but using only one doesn't change the list.

While some take the view that a faithful worship of any god (C.S. Lewis, soldier and tash) is enough for inclusion, the question becomes "what is faithful" service. Eventually this becomes works if it is not faith granted from outside oneself.

The pitfalls of the "openness" view are many, but they don't revolve around the preaching of the cross.

Bingo! THe issue is not when the cross was preached. Abram was justified because he believed in God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. One of hte other times this exact collocation is used is of the people of Nineveh when Jonah preached to them. Notice all he preached was "40 days more and the city will be destroyed." Notice there was no grand proclomation of their wickedness followed by an accomodation of the gospel to them, just a message of you are going to die (personally I think the Spirit moved inspite of Jonah, but that is another issu). But notice in Hebrews 11 the list of people who lived before the cross, all of them exemplified for trusting God (trust and beleive in both the OT and NT are synonymous) so the issue is that one put their trust in God and not the means whereby he brings about the salvation of their souls. This is where I think C.S. Lewis was wrong, trust in the best parts of Tash is not belief in Aslan no matter how much he wants it to be.

GP

BenK
March 29th 2004, 09:48 PM
I think you've missed the point of Lewis' character Emeth. Lewis wasn't making belief in Aslan equivalent to belief in the "good bits" of Tash. In fact, there were no good bits of Tash:


Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he had truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.