The millenium

[Jeiel]

First off I want to say that I am hardly interested in preterism.
My main interest, ofcourse, lies in basic orthodox Christianity (=To live a life that is glorifying to the Lord and thus in harmony with His wishes as revealed to me thru His written and spoken word as I understand it :teeth: ).
And Biblical Creation (YEC being Biblical Creation as far as I'm concerned.) is my pet peeve. (Because for people like me, evolution is a big stumbling block. (It was my biggest, if not the only, stumbling block to the faith and the main reason for my 3 years of apostasy.))

Anyway, I read some stuff on preterism, and it makes alot of sense.
Nero fit's the 666-dude perfectly, the Roman's surrounded the Jews, the Christians escaped, the temple got sacked and all this happened within the generation.
But I find the subject quite boring to be honest. :blush:
The main reason I lean towards it in blissfull ignorance is that JP Holding (My hero :b_mickey: , in all seriousness I greatly admire his scholarship :wink: ) holds these views.

However I only have one big problem with this view (quoted from the tektonics site):
"According to preterists, we are NOW in the "millenium" of Rev. 20. "

That I cannot fathom.
Isn't Jesus supposed to reign in that "millenium"?
Yet these past 2000 years have been the total opposite of what I would expect.
Sure, from a purely European point of view it's been pretty good.
And I saw someone argue for (his version of) preterism by using this logic.

However, for the rest of the world (of which I'm part of) the past "millenium" has been everything but good, it's been downright ugly.
So I am in search of answers that take the whole world into account. (links are welcome, I tried to find answers myself but I only found boring and repetitive stuff, not the answers I was searching for :ahem: )

Specifically:
Do all preterists hold that we are now in the "millenium", or that the "millenium" has occured during the past 2000 years?
(The person mentioned above thought that that millenium was more or less in the 400-1900 period when Christianity reigned in Europe).

Is my understanding of the rule of Jesus and his kingdom faulty?

Do you believe that Satan is bounded (considering that his influence today is so obvious)?
(I could believe that Satan was bounded somewhere in the past, because an apostel of the Lord (Atleast, I believe he was an apostel, though I wouldn't be able to defend him as one and that is why I don't mention his name) in the 19th century had visions of the Lord, and he testified that he saw Satan bounded with many chains.)

If the present day situation would be the last unleashing of Satan before the final judgement, it would make sense.
Except for the fact that much of the world isn't reached with the Gospel yet.
Or do you deny that the great commision must be fulfilled before judgement day?

Sorry for my newbie questions. :blush:
(And also sorry if this is the wrong forum to post in.)
But on the flip side, I'll divide up to 20 pearls to the people who help me find an answer.
(I've never used pearl's before, so forgive me if I somehow screw up in the giving of pearls. :wink: )

[dizzle]

Hello there. I am the Preterist Princess of TWeb :wink: Contrary to local myth, I am not an AI bot. I like to take credit, deserrved or not, for pushing my bud JPHolding into taking the preterist plunge.

I am not sure where to begin answering your question, and not sure I have the time actuallly.

But in short, yes we are in the Millennium. Biblically there is no way around. And yes satan is bound.

[Jeiel]

Have you, or anyone else, written an article on (various?) preterist views on the millenium that I might be able to read, which you could provide to me with a link?

[dizzle]

This thread may assist:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=923

It was never finished cause Jaltus chickened out :lmbo: (oh hi Jaltus!!!!!!!), but I think you will see where we nutty prets are coming from.

[Jeiel]

Thanks, I'm checking it out right now. :smile:

[dizzle]

Okay that will make it easy. I will be glad to answer any questions you have on any specific points. Quote what I said here, and I will respond as I get time.

[Ted]

Jeiel,

May I, with all due respect to DeeDee and my friend JPH, suggest that they are wrong about the millennium? Let us consider two basic lines of evidence.

1: The issue of Satan being bound:
Theologians have argued long and loud from multiple angles on this, so we can find someone who will say anything on this subject and sign it “PhD.” So that is not helpful. Let us consider the divinely delivered statements.

Satan’s binding comes at the beginning of the millennium (20:2, 5).

Satan is bound in the “abyss” (20:3). If we trace abussos through the scriptures, it speaks of a deep place, such as the depths of the ocean or a dep pit. Of interest, Jer 4:23ff uses abussos in the Septuagint (LXX) to describe where Satan is bound. That passage is quite descriptive, with cities pulled down (Jer 4:26), no men or birds (4:25), and so on. This is the result of God’s “fierce anger.” But of particular interest is 4:23, where abussos translates tohuw wabohuw, the exact Hebrew of Genesis 1:2, which literally means “unformed and unfilled.” Further, this is the only passage in the OT that uses that Hebrew other than Gen 1:2. That is significant. An unformed and unfilled place has no one alive, and no structures. It is uninhabitable.

Satan’s binding makes him unable to “deceive the nations” (20:3). In Revelation, as in the bulk of the OT, “the nations” is a reference to the wicked people of the earth. Thus, Satan is unable to tempt the wicked. The text says nothing about tempting the saints.

2: The activities of the saints:
In 20:4, the saints are given “authority to judge.” In order for this to be meaningful, there must be some issue to evaluate and a venue in which to judge. Our current status as sinful humans renders us unfit to judge. (See Jer 17:9). Further, we are not in a venue where we may exercise judicial authority. And finally, no case has been set before us. This should be enough to show that we have not yet entered the millennium. But more is available.

Judgment can be applied to several areas. First, the selection of the saints and rejection of the wicked is judgment, but applies only to God. The creation of divine laws again applies only to God. Therefore, we must find another area.

Paul supplies the answer in Romans 3:4. We are to sit in review on God himself. Satan has made numerous false accusations. He is a liar (Gen 3). It is unfair that he is the only one to be worshiped (Isa 14, Ezek 28). It is unfair to forgive sinners (Zech 3). God is corrupt, rewarding good behavior (Job 1). These charges have to be answered. And the only time they can be answered is after the drama of sin is ended. We will be the body that answers Paul’s plea that God will be justified when he is judged.

Summary:
The millennium is future. The events described for it only have meaning after the ultimate Day of the Lord and gathering of the saints. At that time, all the saints will be with Christ, and the wicked will all be dead (Matt 24:36-42). Satan will be bound in the desolate earth with no one to tempt.

The language of Revelation does not require any difficult gymnastics. But it does require an understanding that there is a war on between Satan and God. We are caught in the crossfire, and eventually will constitute the court that vindicates God from Satan’s false accusations. This is what the millennium is about.

Now, I must issue a challenge to my friends. You hold to a different view of the millennium. Please tell us the motivation God has for presenting the story in the way he does when the actual event is different (in your view) from its presentation. Also, please tell us why God has set up the various major elements of what he has presented in prophecy. Please find your way to fundamental issues.

[Daywalker]

First off I want to say that I am hardly interested in preterism.
My main interest, ofcourse, lies in basic orthodox Christianity (=To live a life that is glorifying to the Lord and thus in harmony with His wishes as revealed to me thru His written and spoken word as I understand it :teeth: ).
And Biblical Creation (YEC being Biblical Creation as far as I'm concerned.) is my pet peeve. (Because for people like me, evolution is a big stumbling block. (It was my biggest, if not the only, stumbling block to the faith and the main reason for my 3 years of apostasy.))

Anyway, I read some stuff on preterism, and it makes alot of sense.
Nero fit's the 666-dude perfectly, the Roman's surrounded the Jews, the Christians escaped, the temple got sacked and all this happened within the generation.
But I find the subject quite boring to be honest. :blush:
The main reason I lean towards it in blissfull ignorance is that JP Holding (My hero :b_mickey: , in all seriousness I greatly admire his scholarship :wink: ) holds these views.

However I only have one big problem with this view (quoted from the tektonics site):
"According to preterists, we are NOW in the "millenium" of Rev. 20. "

That I cannot fathom.
Isn't Jesus supposed to reign in that "millenium"?
Yet these past 2000 years have been the total opposite of what I would expect.
Sure, from a purely European point of view it's been pretty good.
And I saw someone argue for (his version of) preterism by using this logic.

However, for the rest of the world (of which I'm part of) the past "millenium" has been everything but good, it's been downright ugly.
So I am in search of answers that take the whole world into account. (links are welcome, I tried to find answers myself but I only found boring and repetitive stuff, not the answers I was searching for :ahem: )

Specifically:
Do all preterists hold that we are now in the "millenium", or that the "millenium" has occured during the past 2000 years?
(The person mentioned above thought that that millenium was more or less in the 400-1900 period when Christianity reigned in Europe).

Is my understanding of the rule of Jesus and his kingdom faulty?

Do you believe that Satan is bounded (considering that his influence today is so obvious)?
(I could believe that Satan was bounded somewhere in the past, because an apostel of the Lord (Atleast, I believe he was an apostel, though I wouldn't be able to defend him as one and that is why I don't mention his name) in the 19th century had visions of the Lord, and he testified that he saw Satan bounded with many chains.)

If the present day situation would be the last unleashing of Satan before the final judgement, it would make sense.
Except for the fact that much of the world isn't reached with the Gospel yet.
Or do you deny that the great commision must be fulfilled before judgement day?

Sorry for my newbie questions. :blush:
(And also sorry if this is the wrong forum to post in.)
But on the flip side, I'll divide up to 20 pearls to the people who help me find an answer.
(I've never used pearl's before, so forgive me if I somehow screw up in the giving of pearls. :wink: )
Technically, we are not in the 1000 year reign. Biblically, there is no way around it. The kingdom of God COULD have come in full manifestation after the Acts period, however...it was postponed.
It is not uncommon for the Lord to do this sort of thing. The kingdom of heaven was at hand according to Matt. 3:1-2 even though the day of the Lord was NOT AT HAND according to 2 Thess.2. What SHOULD have happened was after the Acts period, God would have established the kingdom of God VISIBLY among the nations. Gradually he would have built up Israel. Then at Christ's actual Coming, Israel truly would be the head of the nations with Christ ruling for 1000 years...
BUT...for various reasons, that has been put ON HOLD for this present age...
If you would like to know more, feel free to do so.
All the Jews expected the kingdom of God to be manifest in the visible realm for that is exactly what the kingdom would have EVENTUALLY done. If Christ rules the world today with a rod of iron, then we have a real problem...cause it is getting worse everyday and that hardly speaks to the nature of our Christ.
Grace and Peace,
Mike