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Ladybug823
01-21-2014, 06:46 PM
I don't know if we have any Jews here but I am curious as to what you think the arrival of the messiah will look like and why you don't believe Jesus is the messiah. I am also curious as to what you believe the purpose of the messiah is.

Soyeong
01-21-2014, 07:26 PM
I think we mainly had one practicing Jew, but I don't think he's shown back up yet.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah

JohnnyP
01-21-2014, 08:53 PM
Just to fill in the blanks in the meantime, as a Christian and not authoritative of Judaism but simply bringing up another point of view I know about, some Jews feel obligated to either act as Messiah, or to help bring Messiah, the idea of Tikkun Olam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam). Which is all about making the world better and not letting it rot with starvation, war, pollution, etc. until God/Messiah comes to rescue it and make it all perfect.

I think in some ways it is a very noble position filled with charity, even though as a Christian I may not agree with them that Jesus is not Messiah.

shunyadragon
01-23-2014, 01:11 PM
There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity. The debate between William Lane Craig and Rabbi Tovia Singer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmmNn6AHFfM. This debate illustrates the problem of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Craig argues from the perspective of the NT only Rabbi Singer argues from the perspective of the Torah, neither the twain shall meet.

At present the debates between Rabbis and Dr. Brown illustrate the Jewish view today concerning the objection to Jesus Christ being the Messiah. http://realmessiah.com/debate

Cerebrum123
01-23-2014, 02:00 PM
There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity. The debate between William Lane Craig and Rabbi Tovia Singer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmmNn6AHFfM. This debate illustrates the problem of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Craig argues from the perspective of the NT only Rabbi Singer argues from the perspective of the Torah, neither the twain shall meet.

At present the debates between Rabbis and Dr. Brown illustrate the Jewish view today concerning the objection to Jesus Christ being the Messiah. http://realmessiah.com/debate

:no:
:argh:
There's just no point in even responding to you anymore is there?

Darth Executor
01-23-2014, 02:50 PM
There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity.

what

JohnnyP
01-23-2014, 02:57 PM
There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity. The debate between William Lane Craig and Rabbi Tovia Singer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmmNn6AHFfM. This debate illustrates the problem of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Craig argues from the perspective of the NT only Rabbi Singer argues from the perspective of the Torah, neither the twain shall meet.

At present the debates between Rabbis and Dr. Brown illustrate the Jewish view today concerning the objection to Jesus Christ being the Messiah. http://realmessiah.com/debate

Something I don't see much of in these debates is mention of the following issue in modern Judaism:


However, some Hasidim believe in a somewhat similar concept. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a prominent Hasidic leader, said that the Rebbe is God's essence itself put into a body of a Tzaddik.[9] While many other Jews find this idea highly controversial, panentheism, i.e. considering everything and everyone as manifestations of God, is the accepted mainstream Hasidic and Kabbalistic doctrine. -Wiki:Incarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation#cite_note-9)


Does that mean the Rebbe is infinite omnipotent and omniscient? "Yes of course," an Argentine student says in Hebrew. "God chose to imbue this world with life through a body. So that's how we know the Rebbe can't have died, and that his actual physical body must be alive. The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." -The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god (http://www.haaretz.com/news/the-lubavitcher-rebbe-as-a-god-1.212516)

shunyadragon
01-25-2014, 05:04 AM
Something I don't see much of in these debates is mention of the following issue in modern Judaism:

Because it is movement in modern Judaism, and not Judaism.

"However, some Hasidim believe in a somewhat similar concept. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a prominent Hasidic leader, said that the Rebbe is God's essence itself put into a body of a Tzaddik.[9] While many other Jews find this idea highly controversial, panentheism, i.e. considering everything and everyone as manifestations of God, is the accepted mainstream Hasidic and Kabbalistic doctrine. -Wiki:Incarnation "

This is not a parallel claim as the traditional claim of Christians for Jesus Christ, as the incarnate Son of God in the Trinitarian concept of God.

" Does that mean the Rebbe is infinite omnipotent and omniscient? "Yes of course," an Argentine student says in Hebrew. "God chose to imbue this world with life through a body. So that's how we know the Rebbe can't have died, and that his actual physical body must be alive. The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." -The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god "

This view is part of the Chabad movement in Judaism, and I am not sure this 'student' got it right. This title Rebbe is not really the Messiah, but the purpose of the movement is to bring about the Messianic Age. IT was a title for Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, as above described as a god (small 'g'). Based on all I have read, this is not a parallel belief to the Messiah, nor the traditional claim of Christianity concerning Jesus Christ. The Chabad is a fairly modern movement within Judaism, and not Judaism.

"Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902–1994),[34] son-in-law of Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak, and a great-grandson of the third Rebbe of Lubavitch, assumed the title of rebbe one year after his father-in-law's death. Rabbi Menachem Mendel greatly expanded Chabad's global network, establishing hundreds of new Chabad centers across the globe. He published many of his own works as well as the works of his predecessors. Rabbi Menachem Mendel's teachings are studied regularly by followers of Chabad. He is commonly referred to as "the Lubavitcher Rebbe", or simply "the Rebbe". Even after his death, he is revered as the leader of the Chabad movement.[28]"

JohnnyP
01-25-2014, 12:59 PM
Because it is movement in modern Judaism, and not Judaism.

Is there a difference? Any Judaism still practiced today is modern Judaism. Discussion of modern Judaism is relevant for today, of course.


This is not a parallel claim as the traditional claim of Christians for Jesus Christ, as the incarnate Son of God in the Trinitarian concept of God.

If considered that for some Jews, the Father is the male aspect, Shekinah the female aspect, and the Rebbe the human aspect, it kinda is.


This view is part of the Chabad movement in Judaism, and I am not sure this 'student' got it right. This title Rebbe is not really the Messiah, but the purpose of the movement is to bring about the Messianic Age. IT was a title for Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, as above described as a god (small 'g'). Based on all I have read, this is not a parallel belief to the Messiah, nor the traditional claim of Christianity concerning Jesus Christ. The Chabad is a fairly modern movement within Judaism, and not Judaism.

He is described as big "G" -- "The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." I don't know what you mean about getting it right, it's well-known that many Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is both Messiah and God, regardless of his title, what he thought about it himself, etc.

shunyadragon
01-25-2014, 01:29 PM
Is there a difference? Any Judaism still practiced today is modern Judaism. Discussion of modern Judaism is relevant for today, of course.

There is a difference when sects of a religion make different claims. Still by and large still in line with modern Judaism. No claim is made that he is dig 'G' God.


If considered that for some Jews, the Father is the male aspect, Shekinah the female aspect, and the Rebbe the human aspect, it kinda is.

Kinda is . . . what? I know of no reference that the claim is big 'G' God. 'a god' is not big 'G' incarnate God.


He is described as big "G" -- "The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." I don't know what you mean about getting it right, it's well-known that many Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is both Messiah and God, regardless of his title, what he thought about it himself, etc.

All references I have seen remain small 'g' god, as in 'a god.' I belief the references to himself remain all small 'g.' Please site a reference where he thought himself big 'G' incarnate God. This belief has never been accused of be heretical in Judaism. If the claim was big 'G' incarnate God it would be accused of heresy.

JohnnyP
01-25-2014, 02:33 PM
There is a difference when sects of a religion make different claims. Still by and large still in line with modern Judaism. No claim is made that he is dig 'G' God.

Kinda is . . . what? I know of no reference that the claim is big 'G' God. 'a god' is not big 'G' incarnate God.

All references I have seen remain small 'g' god, as in 'a god.'

:huh: Third time posting, have you not seen it?



The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical. -The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god (http://www.haaretz.com/news/the-lubavitcher-rebbe-as-a-god-1.212516)


I belief the references to himself remain all small 'g.' Please site a reference where he thought himself big 'G' incarnate God.

It's easy to see why some of his comments are misunderstood, if in fact he was not claiming incarnation, posted again:



Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a prominent Hasidic leader, said that the Rebbe is God's essence itself put into a body of a Tzaddik. -Wiki:Incarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation#cite_note-9)


This belief has never been accused of be heretical in Judaism. If the claim was big 'G' incarnate God it would be accused of heresy.

:huh: There's no shortage of Jews who accuse such Lubavitchers of heresy, have you not ever researched it?


The first time a dead messiah with semi-divinity was adored by Jews, rabbis went to great lengths to distance normative Jews from what the rabbis clearly considered heresy.

That is what must happen now. We have no other halakhic or theological choice because we have a clear historical and legal precedent to follow and no opposing opinions to call on. -Failed Messiah (http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/01/rabbi-david-ber.html)

If you want to keep denying that the Rebbe is never referred to as God/big G, other Jews have charged such followers with heresy, etc. that's your choice I guess, though I find it odd that you go to such lengths denying obvious facts.

Anyway I just brought it up as a curiosity that it's not questioned more in debates, and that's about all I have to say on the subject.

shunyadragon
02-05-2014, 05:25 AM
:huh: Third time posting, have you not seen it?






It's easy to see why some of his comments are misunderstood, if in fact he was not claiming incarnation, posted again:






:huh: There's no shortage of Jews who accuse such Lubavitchers of heresy, have you not ever researched it?



If you want to keep denying that the Rebbe is never referred to as God/big G, other Jews have charged such followers with heresy, etc. that's your choice I guess, though I find it odd that you go to such lengths denying obvious facts.

Anyway I just brought it up as a curiosity that it's not questioned more in debates, and that's about all I have to say on the subject.

I have researched these references, and No, it is not clear nor likely that Rebbe is God, as traditional Christians claim for the station of Christ. It is more in context that Rebbe is a god in the Jewish context.

JohnnyP
02-05-2014, 02:23 PM
I have researched these references, and No, it is not clear nor likely that Rebbe is God, as traditional Christians claim for the station of Christ. It is more in context that Rebbe is a god in the Jewish context.

Obviously they don't see God as Christian Trinity. But from the article posted, "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" approximates the idea of incarnation. I guess you can keep asserting it doesn't if you want, but an accompanying explanation of how it doesn't would be helpful.

shunyadragon
02-05-2014, 04:27 PM
Obviously they don't see God as Christian Trinity. But from the article posted, "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" approximates the idea of incarnation. I guess you can keep asserting it doesn't if you want, but an accompanying explanation of how it doesn't would be helpful.

From your source: 'Rebbe is a god.'

JohnnyP
02-05-2014, 04:42 PM
From your source: 'Rebbe is a god.'

Where in the article does it explain how the idea that "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" is not similar to the function of incarnation? You keep saying it isn't without supporting your assertion with any evidence.

alexeyhurricane
02-09-2014, 12:27 PM
lol Johnny you are just quoting some guys opinion, it is like quoting Benny Hinn, or Joel osteen etc



"where is peace?" for past 2000 years there was more bloodshed in Jesus name !!! than ever possible

Trekkie
02-16-2014, 01:57 PM
I don't know if we have any Jews here but I am curious as to what you think the arrival of the messiah will look like and why you don't believe Jesus is the messiah. I am also curious as to what you believe the purpose of the messiah is.

Messiah means king. There will not be an "arrival" of the messiah. He will be born and grow up like any other human. The messianic era will be a golden age characterised by world peace, universal knowledge of God, the return of Jews to the land of Israel, and the re-building of the Temple in Jerusalem. When we say "messiah", we refer to the king who will reign during that golden age. He may not be personally responsible for all these things but they are the key features of his reign. Jesus wasn't the messiah because he wasn't even a messiah (king) -- he was a carpenter.

Trekkie
02-16-2014, 02:03 PM
Where in the article does it explain how the idea that "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" is not similar to the function of incarnation? You keep saying it isn't without supporting your assertion with any evidence.

The Rebbe isn't God.

You are misunderstanding the shattering of the vessels.

shunyadragon
03-05-2014, 09:55 AM
The Rebbe isn't God.

You are misunderstanding the shattering of the vessels.

Agreed.

shunyadragon
03-05-2014, 10:00 AM
Where in the article does it explain how the idea that "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" is not similar to the function of incarnation? You keep saying it isn't without supporting your assertion with any evidence.,
No, the evidence is the reference you cited, god in the context of the reference is the Jewish context of god, and sons of god, also referred to in the gospels.

One Bad Pig
03-05-2014, 11:43 AM
From your source: 'Rebbe is a god.'
This appears to be the opinion of the (skeptical) journalist, not the interviewees in general.

One Bad Pig
03-05-2014, 11:49 AM
lol Johnny you are just quoting some guys opinion, it is like quoting Benny Hinn, or Joel osteen etc
No one is saying this is a mainstream Jewish belief.



"where is peace?" for past 2000 years there was more bloodshed in Jesus name !!! than ever possible
Your inaccurate hyperbole aside, Jesus predicted that he would cause division; peace will not come until he returns at the consummation of the ages.

shunyadragon
03-06-2014, 03:44 PM
No one is saying this is a mainstream Jewish belief.

Neither is it the belief of Rebbe's followers.



Your inaccurate hyperbole aside, Jesus predicted that he would cause division; peace will not come until he returns at the consummation of the ages.

You included this as if it was a quote by me. I do not believe I made this statement. I believe it a quote by alexeyhurricane.

"where is peace?" for past 2000 years there was more bloodshed in Jesus name !!! than ever possible

One Bad Pig
03-06-2014, 07:00 PM
Neither is it the belief of Rebbe's followers.




You included this as if it was a quote by me. I do not believe I made this statement. I believe it a quote by alexeyhurricane.

"where is peace?" for past 2000 years there was more bloodshed in Jesus name !!! than ever possible
Yes, all the material in the post to which you responded was in response to alexeyhurricane. I apologize if that was not clear.

NormATive
03-21-2014, 09:55 PM
I don't know if we have any Jews here

CLEARLY, that is the case. I've never seen more misrepresentation of my ancestral faith than within this thread!


but I am curious as to what you think the arrival of the messiah will look like and why you don't believe Jesus is the messiah. I am also curious as to what you believe the purpose of the messiah is.

When I attend Shul, it is at a Reformed community, so my response will be from that perspective.

Here goes: we don't really give it a moment's thought. After the Shoah, we realized that waiting around for a messiah was a fool's game. As Hillel said: “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?” And, the great Rabbi said that BEFORE the time of Jesus. We have been evolving for quite some time, now.

As for all this about the Hasidim's bizzaro claims of some kind of trinitarian views within Judaism. Well, you should know that we Jews accept all ideas as valid for discussion, no matter how offbeat. Hell, I am a non-theist, and one of the favorite speakers of our Minyan.

The Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is well known to most Jews - he's kind of our version of Pat Robertson, to give it a perspective with which you could relate.

As far as the Tikunn Olam - The World to Come - it means many things to many people. Rabbi Maimonides defined it in spiritual terms, but I've heard many speak of it in more geo-political terms. Our community defines Tikkun Olam in secular terms. We are all involved in many charities and social causes within our communities. In this way, many feel, we can prepare for the World to Come. Not so that a messiah can come (we really don't believe we need a king anymore), but so that G-d will allow us to evolve into the New World (Tikkun Olam).

This will probably be all I will say about this, since, as a non-theist, I am not supposed to be posting in this side. I just thought there were far too many misrepresentations for me to let it slide. I am somewhat protective of my peeps.

My apologies to the moderators.

NORM

Xtian Rabinovich
04-13-2014, 07:10 PM
Hi Norm,


I've never seen more misrepresentation of my ancestral faith than within this thread!


Is it fair to call it your ancestral faith when you don't believe in God? Wouldn't it be more fair to call it the ancestral faith of those who, sharing your ancestry, actually believe in what that ancestry is really about: God?

shunyadragon
04-14-2014, 09:44 AM
CLEARLY, that is the case. I've never seen more misrepresentation of my ancestral faith than within this thread!



When I attend Shul, it is at a Reformed community, so my response will be from that perspective.

Here goes: we don't really give it a moment's thought. After the Shoah, we realized that waiting around for a messiah was a fool's game. As Hillel said: “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?” And, the great Rabbi said that BEFORE the time of Jesus. We have been evolving for quite some time, now.

As for all this about the Hasidim's bizzaro claims of some kind of trinitarian views within Judaism. Well, you should know that we Jews accept all ideas as valid for discussion, no matter how offbeat. Hell, I am a non-theist, and one of the favorite speakers of our Minyan.

As far as the Tikunn Olam - The World to Come - it means many things to many people. Rabbi Maimonides defined it in spiritual terms, but I've heard many speak of it in more geo-political terms. Our community defines Tikkun Olam in secular terms. We are all involved in many charities and social causes within our communities. In this way, many feel, we can prepare for the World to Come. Not so that a messiah can come (we really don't believe we need a king anymore), but so that G-d will allow us to evolve into the New World (Tikkun Olam).

This will probably be all I will say about this, since, as a non-theist, I am not supposed to be posting in this side. I just thought there were far too many misrepresentations for me to let it slide. I am somewhat protective of my peeps.

My apologies to the moderators.

NORM

Norm

As long as you consider yourself a Jew, as well as Buddhists in Comparative Religion. I believe non-theists in those beliefs are allowed in these instances. One problem with modern Judaism is that agnostics and atheists of many versions are too common to ban them from this section. I respect your views, and would miss them if you did not post in this section.

It may be the case that the moderator could be asked.


The Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is well known to most Jews - he's kind of our version of Pat Robertson, to give it a perspective with which you could relate.

Agreed!!!!