The Centrality Of The Cross And Islam

[seer]

Islam denies the core tenet of Christianity. The atoning death of Christ. And the death of Christ is not only clearly taught by the first century followers of Christ, it was also spoken of by the Roman historian Tacitus, and the Jewish historian Josephus.

Tacitus

To dispel the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following.

Josephus

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.'



There is no question that the early historical record points to Christ's death - yet Islam denies this most basic tenet of the Christian faith, the only basis on which God forgives sin. This is why Christianity and Islam can never be reconciled.

[CatholicSage]

I agree. It's also an effective common sense reason for challenging Islam in my opinion. Islam takes liberties in rewriting history-Jesus was a Muslim and this cross thing-but does not offer any effective reasoning for doing this.

Just as a side note, though, I think that certain parts of the Josephus quote have been altered, so I don't know how accurate it is about the cross specifically.

[seer]

Just as a side note, though, I think that certain parts of the Josephus quote have been altered, so I don't know how accurate it is about the cross specifically.

There are two versions, I took the less christian friendly one.

[Jin-Roh]

Yes, I'm with you on this one as well.
Sadly, people still try to reconcile the two.

[Dan Zebiri]

Lutheren sage said:

"I agree. It's also an effective common sense reason for challenging Islam in my opinion. Islam takes liberties in rewriting history-Jesus was a Muslim and this cross thing-but does not offer any effective reasoning for doing this.

Well, they actually do this because Muslims think they are giving their Prophet Jesus greater honor. To muslims, God's prophets cannot be humiliated, or even embarassed. Thus the writers of the Quran has expunged and :eek: deliberately removed the records of the sins and failures of the prophets. Eg. you will never find the adultery of King David (nabi Daud) with Bathsheba, nor the murder of Uriah, her husband, in the Quran. Though there is a record of David asking for God's forgiveness; and his repentance, there is no record whatever of exactly what his sin was (muslims will just claim that this was a 'test' from God)!

The same kind of scenario is repeated for the other prophets, eg.Moses, Solomon, Noah, Jesus..etc. This is in line with Islam's theory of 'maksum' or Impeccability-of the prophets. Basically it means that they are sinless and the Quran removes all records of their sins, humiliations and wrong-doings. So, in effect, readrs get a somewhat truncated and inaccurate version of the prophets' lives.

Interestingly, the Jewish scriptures are in FULL AGREEMENT with the Christian scriptural records..they do record accurately everything about the prophets - warts and all! The Torah, Psalms and the prophetic writings that consitute the Hebrew Tanakh are the SAME as the Christian Old Testament. Here, both the Hebrew and Christian records witness against the Islamic theory of 'maksum' or impeccability.

So, for Jesus to be tortured and crucified is indeed a great humiliation to God's prophet and to God Himself, so He had to 'save Jesus' from this etc...!

Nevertheless, the muslim 'rescue of Christ' theory goes against the facts of acknowledged History and the documented evidence..see below.

Lutheran adds:
"Just as a side note, though, I think that certain parts of the Josephus quote have been altered, so I don't know how accurate it is about the cross specifically."
That is really immaterial, because Josephus is NOT THE ONLY RECORD WE HAVE about this pertinent matter! There are PLENTY MORE EXTRA-BIBLICAL EVIDENCE For this other than just Josephus'.:teeth:

Look here:

http://www.carm.org/questions/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

You will get SEVEN other non-Christian sources of mention and support for the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. In addition to Josephus, we also have other corroborating facts from : Tacitus, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, Talmudic references and Lucian the Greek writer and opponent of Christianity.

Of course, you will get much more detailed references to Jesus Cross and Crucifixion in the canonical Gospel records and the rest of the New testament.

So, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is a historical fact that an overwhelming majority of reputable scholars would not deny today, whether they be Christians or non Christians. Except for the muslims who due to their religious misinterpretations are forced to deny due to religious orthodoxy rather than factual, historical accuracy. :wink:

Regards, Dan.

[CatholicSage]

Thanks for the elaboration, Dan.

[Jin-Roh]

I've thought about that briefly myself. I'd like to hear it from a Mulsim that Isalm teaches that God's prophets cannot be humiliated or other such things.

Because if that's the case, then they have a lot deal with.

[Dan Zebiri]

Jin-roh,

Since we've been waiting for a while now for any Muslim to oblige your question with a reasonable answer, what were the 'lots of things they have to deal with' that you had in mind? I am a little interested to know :ahem:

Anyway, the concept of Impeccability of the prophets or Maksum is a teaching of Islam, and most orthodox sunnis (and shias too) wont deny that.

Rgds, Dan.

[Jin-Roh]

Well, if it's true that Islam believes that their prophets will never be humiliated but they also except the OT prophets, then that leads to problems.

Maybe humiliation is defined diffrentley, but I seem to remeber Jeremiah being mistreated on more than one occasion, Elijah broke down underneath a tree, Hebrews says that Isaiah was sawed in half...

I still would like to hear a Muslim's comments on this.

[Dan Zebiri]

Jin-roh said:

<<Well, if it's true that Islam believes that their prophets will never be humiliated but they also except the OT prophets, then that leads to problems.>>

Oh yes, count on it..:wink: , it is known as maksum (pronounced 'Muck-soom')
And they accept many OT prophets, but their stories in the Quran differs significantly from the Jewish version (Tanakh) and the Christian (Biblical) version.

<<Maybe humiliation is defined diffrentley, but I seem to remeber Jeremiah being mistreated on more than one occasion, Elijah broke down underneath a tree, Hebrews says that Isaiah was sawed in half...>>

You won't find any such stories of these 3 men of God in the quran. Their names are mentioned, but these kind of stories - nada -NO!

<<I still would like to hear a Muslim's comments on this.>>

So would I, but looks like theres none to oblige you on that..unless you like to try the troll 'ezraarah'? :smile:

[Jin-Roh]

Well, we're still not sure exactley what Ezaraah is. Come to think of it... (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?p=504668#post504668)