One Sacrifice = No Purgatory!

[Ric]

Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (NIV)

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
WOW! That says a lot! He (Jesus) made one sacrifice that "has" (past tense) made "perfect" forever those who are being made holy.
Question? How can a mythical place called purgatory exist when there is no need for further purifications to one in Christ?

[spl_cadet]

Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (NIV)

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
WOW! That says a lot! He (Jesus) made one sacrifice that "has" (past tense) made "perfect" forever those who are being made holy.
Question? How can a mythical place called purgatory exist when there is no need for further purifications to one in Christ?

Are you perfect right now?

[Ric]

Are you perfect right now?

Did you not think about reading the context of the post and/or passage?

Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (NIV)

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
WOW! That says a lot! He (Jesus) made one sacrifice that "has" (past tense) made "perfect" forever those who are being made holy.
Question? How can a mythical place called purgatory exist when there is no need for further purifications to one in Christ?

Now, now spl_cadet,
You know better than that! I am perfect in the sense of being in Christ and His righteousness. Of course I am far, far, far from perfect - but in my Lord I have no worries for He has cleansed me 100% now and for ever! :thumb:

[spl_cadet]

You know better than that! I am perfect in the sense of being in Christ and His righteousness.

How? You sin. If you were perfectly in Christ, you wouldn't sin. Simple as that.

[nomad]

yeah, i don't agree with purgatory but i see where augustine was going with it (and afaik, augustine was, indirectly, the originator of this doctrine, though for him, it was just speculation, not dogma).

it comes from his early period i think? he was definitely once-saved, always-saved at one point, believing that once you were baptized into Christ you would always be saved. but at the time, the catholics believed you have to be forgiven all your sins and be therefore perfect to be accepted into christ. however, what happens if you sinned and died before you could confess it and be forgiven? obviously, you aren't going to hell - you are part of the kingdom. but obviously you can't get into heaven either yet - you have unforgiven sin. augustine postulated the existence of purgatory, some in-between place where these sins could be expunged before going to heaven. note that in augustine's view, purgatory was not a testing place to determine IF you went to heaven or hell; everyone in purgatory would eventually get to heaven in time; i don't know if the official catholic view is the same.

apparently one of the popes (i think gregory?) had a high admiration for augustine, and raised several of his 'speculations' to the level of dogma. it was not always so.

anyways, i don't agree with purgatory, but don't see any conflict between it and the verses you posted. yes, it is one sacrifice that makes us perfect, but since we are not perfect yet, obviously there is a process by which we appropriate that perfection, and i see no reason why purgatory could not be a part of that process.

[brother vinny]

Of all of the doctrines Protestants supposedly have a problem with, I find the doctrine of Purgatory easiest to deal with from Scripture. Let me cite the appropriate passage:


For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

--1 Corinthians 3:11-13, emphasis added(KJV)


Ric, even as Christians we attach ourselves by word or by deed either to the temporal or the eternal. When our bodies die, those temporal attachments do not magically disappear from our spirits. They must be burned away by God's love (for our God is a consuming fire) before we can live in eternal happiness with Him.

[VFarris01]

Sorry, Vinny, you cant get Purgatory from this...

1 Corinthians 3:11-13 ISV
(11) After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus Christ.
(12) Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
(13) the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.

Because you must finish the passage...

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 ISV
(14) If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
(15) If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.

Too much Catholic doctrine is justified by quoting out of context.

[brother vinny]

Sorry, Vinny, you cant get Purgatory from this...

1 Corinthians 3:11-13 ISV
(11) After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus Christ.
(12) Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
(13) the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.

Because you must finish the passage...

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 ISV
(14) If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
(15) If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.

Too much Catholic doctrine is justified by quoting out of context.



Actually, the rest of the passage fits quite nicely. No one in Purgatory stays there or goes to Hell; it's merely a place/state in which the temporal attachments are burned away so that our joy in Heaven will be full. So there's nothing you've added that conflicts with the Catholic doctrine.

[rocketman]

yeah, i don't agree with purgatory but i see where augustine was going with it (and afaik, augustine was, indirectly, the originator of this doctrine, though for him, it was just speculation, not dogma).

Just jumping in very quickly to address this...Farris, I will get to the Primacy thread tonight or tomorrow.

Actually, Tertullian wrote on Purgatory during his Catholic and Semi-Montanist period (although I believe he dropped it upon entering full-blown Montanism). And you can find people asking for prayers after they died as early as 180 AD in epitaphs (Epitaph of Abercius). So Augustine was not the "originator" of Purgatory...it comes from much earlier. He simply began to develop the ideas more thoroughly.

[VFarris01]

Sorry, Vinny, you cant get Purgatory from this...

1 Corinthians 3:11-13 ISV
(11) After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus Christ.
(12) Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
(13) the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.

Because you must finish the passage...

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 ISV
(14) If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
(15) If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.

Too much Catholic doctrine is justified by quoting out of context.

Actually, the rest of the passage fits quite nicely. No one in Purgatory stays there or goes to Hell; it's merely a place/state in which the temporal attachments are burned away so that our joy in Heaven will be full. So there's nothing you've added that conflicts with the Catholic doctrine.Sorry, my friend... this has absolutely nothing to do with Purgatory.
Yet so as by fire - ὡς διὰ πυρόςho¯s dia puros. This passage has greatly perplexed commentators; but probably without any good reason. The apostle does not say that Christians will be doomed to the fires of purgatory; nor that they will pass through fire; nor that they will be exposed to pains and punishment at all; but he "simply carries out the figure" which he commenced, and says that they will be saved, as if the action of fire had been felt on the edifice on which he is speaking. That is, as fire would consume the wood, hay, and stubble, so on the great Day everything that is erroneous and imperfect in Christiana shall be removed, and that which is true and genuine shall be preserved as if it had passed through fire. Their whole character and opinions shall be investigated; and that which is good shall be approved; and that which is false and erroneous be removed.

The idea is not that of a man whose house is burnt over his head and who escapes through the flames, nor that of a man who is subjected to the pains and fires of purgatory; but that of a man who had been spending his time and strength to little purpose; who had built, indeed, on the true foundation, but who had reared so much on it which was unsound, and erroneous, and false, that he himself would be saved with great difficulty, and with the loss of much of that reward which he had expected, as if the fire had passed over him and his works. The simple idea, therefore, is, that that which is genuine and valuable in his doctrines and works, shall be rewarded, and the man shall be saved; that which is not sound and genuine, shall be removed, and he shall suffer loss. Some of the fathers, indeed, admitted that this passage taught that all people would be subjected to the action of fire in the great conflagration with which the world shall close; that the wicked shall be consumed; and that the righteous are to suffer, some more and some less, according to their character. On passages like this, the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is based. But we may observe:

(1) That this passage does not necessarily or naturally give any such idea. The interpretation stated above is the natural interpretation, and one which the passage will not only bear, but which it demands.

(2) If this passage would give any countenance to the absurd and unscriptural idea that the souls of the righteous at the Day of Judgment are to be re-united to their bodies, in order to be subjected to the action of intense heat, to be brought from the abodes of bliss and compelled to undergo the burning fires of the last conflagration, still it would give no countenance to the still more absurd and unscriptural opinion that those fires have been and are still burning; that all souls are to be subjected to them; and that they can be removed only by masses offered for the dead, and by the prayers of the living. The idea of danger and peril is, indeed, in this text; but the idea of personal salvation is retained and conveyed.

- Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

[brother vinny]

[size=2]Sorry, my friend... this has absolutely nothing to do with Purgatory.


This "Albert Barnes" authority you've appealed to: can you trust he completely unbiased as to his interpretation of the passage? Seems to me that he has a presuppositional bias already in place against the Catholic Church, so naturally he's going to seek interpretations that counter the Church's teachings.

[VFarris01]

1Co 3:11-15 - Here the apostle informs us what foundation he had laid at the bottom of all his labours among them - even Jesus Christ, the chief corner-stone, Eph 2:20. Upon this foundation all the faithful ministers of Christ build. Upon this rock all the Christians found their hopes. Those that build their hopes of heaven on any other foundation build upon the sand. Other foundation can no man lay besides what is laid - even Jesus Christ. Note, The doctrine of our Saviour and his mediation is the principal doctrine of Christianity. It lies at the bottom, and is the foundation, of all the rest. Leave out this, and you lay waste all our comforts, and leave no foundation for our hopes as sinners. It is in Christ only that God is reconciling a sinful world to himself, 2 Co 5:19. But of those that hold the foundation, and embrace the general doctrine of Christ's being the mediator between God and man, there are two sorts: -

I. Some build upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones (v12), namely, those who receive and propagate the pure truths of the gospel, who hold nothing but the truth as it is in Jesus, and preach nothing else. This is building well upon a good foundation, making all of apiece, when ministers not only depend upon Christ as the great prophet of the church, and take him for their guide and infallible teacher, but receive and spread the doctrines he taught, in their purity, without any corrupt mixtures, without adding or diminishing.

II. Others build wood, hay, and stubble, on this foundation; that is, though they adhere to the foundation, they depart from the mind of Christ in many particulars, substitute their own fancies and inventions in the room of his doctrines and institutions, and build upon the good foundation what will not abide the test when the day of trial shall come, and the fire must make it manifest, as wood, hay, and stubble, will not bear the trial by fire, but must be consumed in it. There is a time coming when a discovery will be made of what men have built on this foundation: Every man's work shall be made manifest, shall be laid open to view, to his own view and that of others. Some may, in the simplicity of their hearts, build wood and stubble on the good foundation, and know not, all the while, what they have been doing; but in the day of the Lord their own conduct shall appear to them in its proper light. Every man's work shall be made manifest to himself, and made manifest to others, both those that have been misled by him and those that have escaped his errors. Now we may be mistaken in ourselves and others; but there is a day coming that will cure all our mistakes, and show us ourselves, and show us our actions in the true light, without covering or disguise: For the day shall declare it (that is, every man's work), because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is, v13. The day shall declare and make it manifest, the last day, the great day of trial; see 1 Co 4:5. Though some understand it of the time when the Jewish nation was destroyed and their constitution thereby abolished, when the superstructure which judaizing teachers would have raised on the Christian foundation was manifested to be no better than hay and stubble, that would not bear the trial. The expression carries in it a plain allusion to the refiner's art, in which the fire separates and distinguishes the dross from the gold and silver; as it also will silver and gold and precious stones, that will endure the fire, from wood and hay and stubble, that will be consumed in it. Note, There is a day coming that will as nicely distinguish one man from another, and one man's work from another's, as the fire distinguishes gold from dross, or metal that will bear the fire from other materials that will be consumed in it. In that day, 1. Some men's works will abide the trial - will be found standard. It will appear that they not only held the foundation, but that they built regularly and well upon it - that they laid on proper materials, and in due form and order. The foundation and the superstructure were all of a piece. The foundation-truths, and those that had a manifest connection with them, were taught together. It may not be so easy to discern this connection now, nor know what works will abide the trial then; but that day will make a full discovery. And such a builder shall not, cannot fail of a reward. He will have praise and honour in that day, and eternal recompence after it. Note, Fidelity in the ministers of Christ will meet with a full and ample reward in a future life. Those who spread true and pure religion in all the branches of it, and whose work will abide in the great day, shall receive a reward. And, Lord, how great! how much exceeding their deserts! 2. There are others whose works shall be burnt (v15), whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be discovered, disowned, and rejected, in that day - shall be first manifested to be corrupt, and then disapproved of God and rejected. Note, The great day will pluck off all disguises, and make things appear as they are: He whose work shall be burnt will suffer loss. If he have built upon the right foundation wood and hay and stubble, he will suffer loss. His weakness and corruption will be the lessening of his glory, though he may in the general have been an honest and an upright Christian. This part of his work will be lost, turning no way to his advantage, though he himself may be saved. Observe, Those who hold the foundation of Christianity, though they build hay, wood, and stubble, upon it, may be saved. This may help to enlarge our charity. We should not reprobate men for their weakness: for nothing will damn men but wickedness. He shall be saved, yet so as by fire, saved out of the fire. He himself shall be snatched out of that flame which will consume his work. This intimates that it will be difficult for those that corrupt and deprave Christianity to be saved. God will have no mercy on their works, though he may pluck them as brands out of the burning. On this passage of scripture the papists found their doctrine of purgatory, which is certainly hay and stubble: a doctrine never originally fetched from scripture, but invented in barbarous ages, to feed the avarice and ambition of the clergy, at the cost of those who would rather part with their money than their lusts, for the salvation of their souls. It can have no countenance from this text, (1.) Because this is plainly meant of a figurative fire, not of a real one: for what real fire can consume religious rites or doctrines? (2.) Because this fire is to try men's works, of what sort they are; but purgatory-fire is not for trial, not to bring men's actions to the test, but to punish for them. They are supposed to be venial sins, not satisfied for in this life, for which satisfaction must be made by suffering the fire of purgatory. (3.) Because this fire is to try every man's works, those of Paul and Apollos, as well as those of others. Now, no RC will have the front to say apostles must have passed through purgatory fires.

- Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

[brother vinny]

Great. Now he culls from Matthew Henry, a Puritain, called such because they wanted to "purify" their faith of all traces of Catholicism. Nope, no presuppositional bias there!

I have an idea, Farris. Why don't you come up with arguments on your own instead of appealing to obviously biased authorities?

[VFarris01]

This "Albert Barnes" authority you've appealed to: can you trust he completely unbiased as to his interpretation of the passage? Seems to me that he has a presuppositional bias already in place against the Catholic Church, so naturally he's going to seek interpretations that counter the Church's teachings.I've heard it before from Catholics, "This from protestant apologist, by definition unreliable." Mr. Barnes' interpretation is exactly as "unbiased" as the RCC's interpretation now isn't it?

I can quote from a number of sources, many not familiar with the other's work, stating esentially the same interpretation.

[brother vinny]

I've heard it before from Catholics, "This from protestant apologist, by definition unreliable." Mr. Barnes' interpretation is exactly as "unbiased" as the RCC's interpretation now isn't it?


Well, one is more historic, that's for sure.


I can quote from a number of sources, many not familiar with the other's work, stating esentially the same interpretation.

Why not come up with your own arguments? Is that so hard?

[VFarris01]

Why not come up with your own arguments? Is that so hard?Why? My arguments would be essentially the same... plus I don't have to type as much.
We need only read church history to discover how this doctrine developed by slow processes into it's present form. In the early Christian era, following the Apostolic age, the writings of Marcion and the Shepherd of Hermes (second century) set forth the first statement of a doctrine of purgatory, alleging that Christ after His death on the cross went to the underworld and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19) and led them in triumph to heaven, Prayers for the dead appear in the early Christian liturgies and imply the doctrine since they suggest that the state of the dead is not yet fixed. Origen, the most learned of the early church fathers (died 254 A.D.), taught, first, that a purification by fire was to take place after the resurrection, and second, a universal restoration, a purifying by fire at the end of the world through which all men and angels were to be restored to favor with God.

In the writings of Augustine (died, 430 A.D.) the doctrine of purgatory was first given definite form, although he himself expressed doubt about some phases of it. It was, however, not until the sixth century that it received formal shape at the hands of Gregory the Great, who held the papal office from 590 to 604 A.D. Thereafter eschatology entered upon what we may term it's mythological phase, during the period of history known as the Dark Ages. The invisible world was divided into heaven, hell, and purgatory, with the imagination attempting to portray as vividly as possible the topography and experiences of each region.

The doctrine was proclaimed an article of faith in 1439, by the Council of Florence, and was later confirmed by the Council of Trent, in 1548. But does any intelligent person believe that such a place as purgatory is described in the Bible it would have taken the church fathers 600 years to discover it, and another 1,000 years to confirm it? At any rate the Protestant Reformation swept away those creations of terror and fancy, and reverted to the Scriptural antithesis of heaven and hell. The Eastern Orthodox Church, incidentally, does not teach the doctrine of purgatory.

- http://home.computer.net/~cya/cy00026.html (http://home.computer.net/~cya/cy00026.html)

[brother vinny]

Why? My arguments would be essentially the same... plus I don't have to type as much.
[/font]

I'm not going to respond to the arguments of dead men (nor will I placate your laziness). If you wish to have a discussion, you'll have to do so with your own words.

[VFarris01]

I'm not going to respond to the arguments of dead men Yet you would have me do so? Incidently, my last quote was from a live person.
(nor will I placate your laziness).Not laziness... efficiency.
If you wish to have a discussion, you'll have to do so with your own words.Coward. I do use my own words... and those of others.

[brother vinny]

Yet you would have me do so? Incidently, my last quote was from a live person.

But it wasn't your own, which is my main point.


Not laziness... efficiency.

Call it what you will.


Coward. I do use my own words... and those of others.

I take it that since you've been reduced to the level of-name-calling that this is a de facto admission of defeat and, as such, see no further need to kick you while you're already down. Good day.

[VFarris01]

But it wasn't your own, which is my main point.This is important how? Your belief in Purgatory isn't your own... it's what the "Church" tells you to believe.
Call it what you will.Not what I call it... what it is.
I take it that since you've been reduced to the level of-name-calling that this is a de facto admission of defeat and, as such, see no further need to kick you while you're already down. Good day.Once a coward always a coward, huh. How else should I understand your unwillingness to respond, even so with an ad hominem. Seems you admitted defeat by such a post. You said you would not "placate" my "laziness." Ergo, you called me "lazy." Who quit? You or me?

Now, instead of slinging mud, why don't you defend your position.

[Jude3b]

How? You sin. If you were perfectly in Christ, you wouldn't sin. Simple as that.

True believers are righteous in Christ. It is one of the benefits in the New Covenant. It is Christ who is righteous and God counts true believers as "the righteousness of God in Christ"
Jehovah-Tsidkenu "Jehovah our righteousness"

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9 KJV)

[bar Jonah]

Farris.... man, I am NO believer in Purgatory. But Vinny has a very good point. If I were in his shoes, I'd say the same thing.

Stop relying on the authority of men -- dead or alive -- and start reasoning from scripture. Step up to the plate, man. "Go" or get off the pot. The opinions of men are irrelevant. Vinny can't have discourse with them. He's talking to you. Talk back, and stop copping out and pawning him off on other people who aren't even present.

If you want to rely on the teachings of these men as foundation for your arguments, then so be it. But be a man, and step up, bro. I say this in love, and as someone on your side in this issue.


That said, I do have a minor beef for Vinny, too. You have your own little fallacy of authority going on, back there a bit, although not as much as Farris. You admonished others for using sources that are biased against the RCC. Well... uhm, where are you going to find a non-Catholic source that can't be labeled as biased against the RCC???

You hold that all non-Catholics are Protestants. People who are PROTESTING against the Catholic Church! :lol:

Nice little box you've put yourself in, bro. I love ya to death! :rithumb:

[nomad]

not all protestants are anti-catholic (and by this, i mean not rabidly so like posters like jude3b or writers like hyslop). they're just not catholic. but i'd imagine that finding a 'friendly' protestant source, or even an unbiased one, is a bit difficult...

[VFarris01]

Stop relying on the authority of men -- dead or alive -- and start reasoning from scripture.Since everyone is offended, I apologize. I was only going through the door Vinny and Rocketman opened.

[VFarris01]

Is Purgatory a “purification” by “fire?”

Quoting first from Matthew:

John doesn’t promote a Purgatory.
Matthew 3:7-12 ISV
(7) But when John saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them, "You children of serpents! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
(8) Produce fruit that is consistent with repentance!
(9) Don't think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our forefather.' For I tell you that God can raise up descendants for Abraham from these stones!
(10) The ax already lies against the roots of the trees. So every tree not producing good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
(11) I am baptizing you with water as a token of repentance, but the one who is coming after me is stronger than I am, and I am not worthy to carry his sandals. It is he who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
(12) His winnowing fork is in his hand. He will clean up his threshing floor and gather his grain into the barn, but he will burn the chaff with inextinguishable fire."
The “grain” is kept; the “chaff” is burned. Notice John doesn’t say the “grain” must be “purified” before entering "Heaven.”

Jesus doesn’t promote a Purgatory.
Matthew 7:15-23 ISV
(15) "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps' clothing but inwardly are savage wolves.
(16) By their fruit you will know them. Grapes aren't gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles, are they?
(17) In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a rotten tree produces bad fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a rotten tree cannot produce good fruit.
(19) Every tree not producing good fruit will be cut down and thrown into a fire.
(20) So by their fruit you will know them."
(21) "Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?'
(23) Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"
Either one “produces good fruit” or one “produces bad fruit;” there is no in-between. Read v21-23 closely.

(36) Then Jesus left the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable about the weeds in the field."
(37) He answered, "The person who sowed good seed is the Son of Man,
(38) while the field is the world. The good seed are those who belong to the kingdom, while the weeds are those who belong to the evil one.
(39) The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
(40) Just as weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at end of the age.
(41) The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness
(42) and they will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
This is “The Parable of the Planter.” Read v41-42. The “blazing furnace” is clearly Hell, not Purgatory.
Matthew 18:8-9 ISV
(8) "So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life injured or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
(9) And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell fire.
Certainly there is “purging” going on here but not in Purgatory.
Matthew 25:14-30 ISV
(14) "For it is like a man going on a trip who called his servants and turned his money over to them.
(15) To one man he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, based on their ability. Then he went on his trip.
(16) "The one who received five talents went out at once and invested them and earned five more.
(17) In the same way, the one who had two talents earned two more.
(18) But the one who received one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master's money.
(19) "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them.
(20) The one who had received five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you gave me five talents. See, I've earned five more talents.'
(21) His master said to him, 'Well done, good and trustworthy servant! Since you have been trustworthy with a small amount, I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and share your master's joy!'
(22) "The one with two talents also came forward and said, 'Master, you gave me two talents. See, I've earned two more talents.'
(23) His master said to him, 'Well done, good and trustworthy servant! Since you have been trustworthy with a small amount, I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and share your master's joy!'
(24) "Then the one who had received one talent came forward and said, 'Master, I knew that you were a hard man, harvesting where you haven't planted and gathering where you haven't scattered any seed.
(25) Being afraid, I went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here, take what is yours!'
(26) "His master answered him, 'You evil and lazy servant! So you knew that I harvested where I haven't planted and gathered where I haven't scattered any seed?
(27) Then you should have invested my money with the bankers. When I returned, I would have received my money back with interest.
(28) Take the talent from him and give it to the man who has the ten talents.
(29) For to everyone who has something, more will be given, and he will have more than enough. But from the person who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away from him.
(30) Throw this useless servant into the outer darkness! In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'"
This is the “Parable of the Talents.” Purgatory is a “second chance;” there are no second chances, v30.
Matthew 25:31-46 ISV
(31) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
(32) All the nations will be assembled in front of him, and he will separate them from each other as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
(33) He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left.
(34) "Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
(35) For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you welcomed me.
(36) I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you took care of me. I was in prison, and you visited me.'
(37) "Then the righteous will say to him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you something to eat, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
(38) When did we see you as a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
(39) When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
(40) The king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, in that you did it for one of the least important of these my brothers, you did it for me.'
(41) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me, you who are accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
(42) For I was hungry, and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink.
(43) I was a stranger, and you didn't welcome me. I was naked, and you didn't clothe me. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
(44) "Then they will reply, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or as a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and didn't help you?'
(45) Then he will say to them, 'Truly I tell you, in that you did not do it for one of the least important of these, you did not do it for me.'
(46) These people will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."
This is “The Parable of the Needy Man.” No second chances here either.

My next post will be from Mark.

[VFarris01]

Mark 9:43-50 ISV
(43) So if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life injured than to have two hands and go to hell, to the fire that cannot be put out.
(44) In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out.
(45) And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
(46) In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out.
(47) And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
(48) In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out.
(49) For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
(50) Salt is good. But if salt loses its taste, how can you restore its flavor? Keep on having salt among yourselves, and live in peace with one another."
It was appointed by the law of Moses, that every sacrifice should be salted with salt, not to preserve it (for it was to be immediately consumed), but because it was the food of God's table, and no flesh is eaten without salt; it was therefore particularly required in the meat-offerings, Lev 2:13. The nature of man, being corrupt, and as such being called flesh (Gen 6:3; Psa 78:39), some way or other must be salted, in order to its being a sacrifice to God. The salting of fish (and I think of other things) they call the curing of it. Our chief concern is, to present ourselves living sacrifices to the grace of God (Rom 12:1), and, in order to our acceptableness, we must be salted with salt, our corrupt affections must be subdued and mortified, and we must have in our souls a savior of grace. Thus the offering up or sacrificing of the Gentiles is said to be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, as the sacrifices were salted, Rom 15:16. Those that have the salt of grace, must make it appear that they have it; that they have salt in themselves, a living principle of grace in their hearts, which works out all corrupt dispositions, and every thing in the soul that tends to putrefaction, and would offend our God, or our own consciences, as unsavory meat does. Our speech must be always with grace seasoned with this salt, that no corrupt communication may proceed out of our mouth, but we may loath it as much as we would to put putrid meat into our mouths. We must not only have this salt of grace, but we must always retain the relish and savor of it; for if this salt lose its saltiness, if a Christian revolt from his Christianity, if he loses the savor of it, and be no longer under the power and influence of it, what can recover him, or wherewith will ye season him? This was said Mat 5:13. Those that present not themselves living sacrifices to God's grace, shall be made for ever dying sacrifices to his justice, and since they would not give honor to him, he will get him honor upon them; they would not be salted with the salt of divine grace, would not admit that to subdue their corrupt affections, no, they would not submit to the operation, could not bear the corrosives that were necessary to eat out the proud flesh, it was to them like cutting off a hand, or plucking out an eye; and therefore in hell they shall be salted with fire; coals of fire shall be scattered upon them (Eze 10:2), as salt upon the meat, and brimstone (Job 18:15), as fire and brimstone were rained on Sodom; the pleasures they have lived in, shall eat their flesh, as it were with fire, Jam 5:3. Since he had said, that the fire of hell shall not be quenched, but it might be objected, that the fuel will not last always, he here intimates, that by the power of God it shall be made to last always; for those that are cast into hell, will find the fire to have not only the corroding quality of salt, but its preserving quality; whence it is used to signify that which is lasting: a covenant of salt is a perpetual covenant, and Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt, made her a remaining monument of divine vengeance.

[brother vinny]

VFarris,

If you believe the doctrine of Purgatory is about a "second chance," then you're sorely mistaken.

[VFarris01]

Vinny, Jesus said, there are only two places you can go after you depart this life, Heaven or Hell. He never said we would go to someplace in between to be cleansed of sin to make us perfect. The blood of Christ is what makes us "perfect."

1 John 1:5-10 ISV
(5) This is the message that we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness-none at all!
(6) If we claim that we have fellowship with him but keep living in the darkness, we are lying and the truth is not in us.
(7) But if we keep living in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
(8) If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we make it our habit to confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have never sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

The use of the phrase "second chance" is a figure of speech. You have nothing else to offer so you pick on two words and take them out of context.

[brother vinny]

Vinny, Jesus said, there are only two places you can go after you depart this life, Heaven or Hell. He never said we would go to someplace in between to be cleansed of sin to make us perfect. The blood of Christ is what makes us "perfect."

No one ever defined "Purgatory" as another place, necessarily. Dante notwithstanding, the Church has not dogmatized as to whether purgatory is a separate place from Heaven or a state Christians experience before the joy of Heaven.

Personally, I believe it is a state in which our petty selfishnesses are burned away by the consuming fire of God's love, as described in Paul's passage. And I believe, VFarris, if you are preaching a gospel to people that does not include this knowledge-- that one's attachment to the things of this earth will be burned away, and that this burning will involve the pain of loss-- then you, my friend, are teaching contrary to Paul's gospel, and are accursed.

[brother vinny]

The use of the phrase "second chance" is a figure of speech. You have nothing else to offer so you pick on two words and take them out of context.

Sorry. It seemed like you were basing your whole argument upon the notion that purgatory is a second chance. There's no second chance involved; no one who experiences purgation will fall to Hell, and no one condemned to Hell will by any means be able to make it into heaven.

[VFarris01]

The use of the phrase "second chance" is a figure of speech. You have nothing else to offer so you pick on two words and take them out of context.
Sorry. It seemed like you were basing your whole argument upon the notion that purgatory is a second chance. There's no second chance involved; no one who experiences purgation will fall to Hell, and no one condemned to Hell will by any means be able to make it into heaven.
I used the phrase “second chance/s” three times and it could hardly be construed to be the basis of my argument unless one is looking for something to “pick on” and ignore everything else in the post as you have done.
Vinny, Jesus said, there are only two places you can go after you depart this life, Heaven or Hell. He never said we would go to someplace in between to be cleansed of sin to make us perfect. The blood of Christ is what makes us "perfect."
No one ever defined "Purgatory" as another place, necessarily. Dante notwithstanding, the Church has not dogmatized as to whether purgatory is a separate place from Heaven or a state Christians experience before the joy of Heaven.

Personally, I believe it is a state in which our petty selfishnesses are burned away by the consuming fire of God's love, as described in Paul's passage. And I believe, VFarris, if you are preaching a gospel to people that does not include this knowledge-- that one's attachment to the things of this earth will be burned away, and that this burning will involve the pain of loss-- then you, my friend, are teaching contrary to Paul's gospel, and are accursed.
Purgatory must be either a person, place, or thing, for in the context Purgatory is used as a noun. Since Purgatory cannot be a “person” or simply a “thing” it must be a “place.” Outside of Heaven or Hell Purgatory must be a place. Even if Purgatory were within Heaven or Hell it must still be a place wouldn’t you agree?

Purgatory cannot be a “state” of being as you suggest because our soul must be somewhere.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 ISV
(11) After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus Christ.
(12) Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
(13) the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
(14) If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
(15) If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.
v15

"suffer loss," that is, forfeit the special "reward"; not that he will lose salvation (which is altogether a free gift, not a "reward" or wages), for he remains still on the foundation of Christ, v11, see also, 2Jo 1:6.

"saved, but it will be like going through fire," rather, "so as through fire," see Zec 3:2; Amo 4:11; Jud 1:23. "Saved, yet not without fire" (Rom 2:27). As a builder whose building, not the foundation, is consumed by fire, escapes, but with the loss of his work; as the shipwrecked merchant, though he has lost his merchandise, is saved, though having to pass through the waves; see Mal 3:1-2 and Mal 4:1, give the key to explain the imagery. The "Lord suddenly coming to His temple" in flaming "fire," all the parts of the building which will not stand that fire will be consumed; the builders will escape with personal salvation, but with the loss of their work, through the midst of the conflagration. Again, a distinction is recognized between minor and fundamental doctrines (if we regard the superstructure as representing the doctrines superadded to the elementary essentials); a man may err as to the former, and yet be saved, but not so as to the latter (compare Phi 3:12-15). A person is never completely "purified," "cleansed," or "made perfect" of unrepented sin. Jesus did this for us already by His suffering on the Cross.

Purgatory is unnecessary:
Hebrews 9:24-28 ISV
(24) For Christ did not go into a sanctuary made by human hands and just a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in God's presence on our behalf.
(25) Nor did he go into heaven to sacrifice himself again and again, the way the high priest goes into the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.
(26) Then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now, at the end of the ages, he has appeared once for all to remove sin by his sacrifice.
(27) Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged,
(28) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. And he will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly wait for him.

[brother vinny]

I used the phrase “second chance/s” three times and it could hardly be construed to be the basis of my argument unless one is looking for something to “pick on” and ignore everything else in the post as you have done.


It was a notion you kept rounding back in on, even if you only did it three times. So it seemed like the crux of your arguement. And I only ignored that which was irrelevant to the topic at hand.


Purgatory must be either a person, place, or thing, for in the context Purgatory is used as a noun. Since Purgatory cannot be a “person” or simply a “thing” it must be a “place.” Outside of Heaven or Hell Purgatory must be a place. Even if Purgatory were within Heaven or Hell it must still be a place wouldn’t you agree?


Nope. It's a state, which is a "thing," (and why can't it be simply a "thing"? salvation is simply a "thing" when you get down to grammatical nuts and bolts) and I believe the state occurs in Heaven.

[VFarris01]

I used the phrase “second chance/s” three times and it could hardly be construed to be the basis of my argument unless one is looking for something to “pick on” and ignore everything else in the post as you have done.It was a notion you kept rounding back in on, even if you only did it three times. So it seemed like the crux of your arguement. And I only ignored that which was irrelevant to the topic at hand.Which was everything else. If you can't refute it ignore it right?Purgatory must be either a person, place, or thing, for in the context Purgatory is used as a noun. Since Purgatory cannot be a “person” or simply a “thing” it must be a “place.” Outside of Heaven or Hell Purgatory must be a place. Even if Purgatory were within Heaven or Hell it must still be a place wouldn’t you agree?Nope. It's a state, which is a "thing," (and why can't it be simply a "thing"? salvation is simply a "thing" when you get down to grammatical nuts and bolts) and I believe the state occurs in Heaven.Salvation is an action, therefore a verb, such as "Saved by Grace." "Things" "occupy" space wheather actual or spiritual, therefore "things" have a "location."

Vinny, you’ve spent your last FOUR posts arguing semantics. Why don’t you get on with the topic or is this all you have to offer?

[brother vinny]

Salvation is an action, therefore a verb, such as "Saved by Grace." "Things" "occupy" space wheather actual or spiritual, therefore "things" have a "location."

Is your grammar always as bad as your formatting? You say "salvation" is a verb, I say it's a noun. Let us consult a higher authority, shall we? Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com) lists "salvation" as follows (emphasis mine):


Main Entry: sal·va·tion
Function: noun


[color=black]Vinny, you’ve spent your last FOUR posts arguing semantics. Why don’t you get on with the topic or is this all you have to offer

Dude, if your grammar is as bad as you've just displayed, we're going to be on semantics quite a long while, as you're making errors that I learned to avoid back in first grade.

So, will you agree with me that it was a poor choice of wording to call the doctrine of purgatory a "doctrine of second chances"?

[VFarris01]

Salvation is an action, therefore a verb, such as "Saved by Grace." "Things" "occupy" space whether actual or spiritual, therefore "things" have a "location."
Darn, forgot about “idea” didn’t I? Still, I maintain Salvation is not a “thing.”Is your grammar always as bad as your formatting? You say "salvation" is a verb, I say it's a noun. Let us consult a higher authority, shall we? Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com/)) lists "salvation" as follows (emphasis mine):Main Entry: sal·va·tion
Function: nounPotato, potahto. I’m an engineer not an English teacher. My math is considerably better.[color=black]Vinny, you’ve spent your last FOUR posts arguing semantics. Why don’t you get on with the topic or is this all you have to offer.Your formatting could use work too. So, five posts on semantics.Dude, if your grammer is as bad as you've displayed, we're going to be on semantics quite a long while, as you're making errors that I learned to avoid back in first grade.If you have nothing better than to attack my grammer to avoid the subject we obviously have nothing further to discuss because you have nothing. Might I use your words, "I take it that since you've been reduced to the level of-name-calling (ad hominems) that this is a de facto admission of defeat and, as such, see no further need to kick you while you're already down."So, will you agree with me that it was a poor choice of wording to call the doctrine of purgatory a "doctrine of second chances"?I didn't "call" Purgatory anything of the sort. Perhaps you overlooked these while searching for grammatical errors or simply ignored them:


"Is Purgatory a “purification” by “fire?”"

"The “grain” is kept; the “chaff” is burned. Notice John doesn’t say the “grain” must be “purified” before entering "Heaven,” (on Matthew 3:7-12)

"The “blazing furnace” is clearly Hell, not Purgatory," (on Matthew 13:36-42)

"Certainly there is “purging” going on here but not in Purgatory" (on Matthew 18:8-9).

Jude3b posted the bottom line: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9 KJV) There is simply no need for a "Purgatory" to "purify the soul" prior to entering Heaven. If we are "cleansed from all unrighteousness" by the Grace of God and the blood of Christ are not our souls pure and spotless?

From other sources (by definition unreliable?): The doctrine of purgatory was first conceptualized in the professing church in the second century; the Roman Church proclaimed it as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548. The Catholic Church teaches that even those "who die in the state of grace" (i.e., saved and sins forgiven) must still spend an indefinite time being purged/purified (i.e., expiated of sins/cleansed for heaven). (Technically, this "purging" can occur in this life rather than in purgatory itself, but as a practical matter, purgatory is the best the average Catholic can hope for.) Some Catholics will admit that the doctrine of purgatory is not based on the Bible, but on Catholic tradition (which, by Catholic standards, is equally authoritative) (Jn. 5:24; Lk. 23:43; 1 Jn. 1:7,9; Phil. 1:23). (Others teach that it is based upon the interpretation of several Scriptural texts -- 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Pe. 1:7; 3:19; Matt. 12:31.) They teach that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and good works of those on earth (which would include the "purchase" of masses and/or other indulgences), but they are not certain how these prayers and works are applied (2 Pe. 1:9; Heb. 1:3; Jn. 3:18; 19:30; 2 Cor. 5:6-8).

Why don't you make some positive effort and show us you have more to offer than ad hominems.

[Ric]

Of all of the doctrines Protestants supposedly have a problem with, I find the doctrine of Purgatory easiest to deal with from Scripture. Let me cite the appropriate passage:


For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

--1 Corinthians 3:11-13, emphasis added(KJV)


Ric, even as Christians we attach ourselves by word or by deed either to the temporal or the eternal. When our bodies die, those temporal attachments do not magically disappear from our spirits. They must be burned away by God's love (for our God is a consuming fire) before we can live in eternal happiness with Him.


Hey Brother Vinny,

Now I know if you read that passage in it's proper context you would see that one's "works" are burned and not the one. :smile:

[Ric]

How? You sin. If you were perfectly in Christ, you wouldn't sin. Simple as that.

Did you even read what I said?

Listen! When one is in Christ's righteousness - that is what we rely on! Where have you missed that? :???:

[Ric]

True believers are righteous in Christ. It is one of the benefits in the New Covenant. It is Christ who is righteous and God counts true believers as "the righteousness of God in Christ"
Jehovah-Tsidkenu "Jehovah our righteousness"

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9 KJV)

And all of God's children said, "Amen!"

[VFarris01]

Ric, you hit the Nail on the Head.
How long now have I been trying to get it through Vinny's?

[Ric]

Ric, you hit the Nail on the Head.
How long now have I been trying to get it through Vinny's?

Thanks, but I was not the one whom hit the nail on the head, it was God! :smile:

Praise Him for His Truth! :thumb:

[brother vinny]

Darn, forgot about “idea” didn’t I? Still, I maintain Salvation is not a “thing.”

Well, then it's a person or place then, isn't it? :teeth:

Potato, potahto. I’m an engineer not an English teacher. My math is considerably better.

Yes. You have shown an ability to count. Bravo.


Your formatting could use work too.


Actually, the formatting you refer to is a bit of your own that I forgot to delete. It's hard work making your posts legible.


So, five posts on semantics.


Yep, you can count! And we have to go over semantics if you define purgatory improperly and refer to it as a "second chance."


If you have nothing better than to attack my grammer to avoid the subject we obviously have nothing further to discuss because you have nothing. Might I use your words, "I take it that since you've been reduced to the level of-name-calling (ad hominems) that this is a de facto admission of defeat and, as such, see no further need to kick you while you're already down."


You're right. I'll stop with the ad homs.

I didn't "call" Purgatory anything of the sort.


Now, would calling you a liar at this point be an ad hom? Here is what you said on 03-16-2004 03:16 PM:


This is the “Parable of the Talents.” Purgatory is a “second chance;” there are no second chances, v30.


Either this is a lie directly from yourself, in which I feel justified in discontinuing conversation because a liar hasn't got the truth in him anyway. Or this is a lie that you've cut-and-pasted from elsewhere, in which case I feel justified in discontinuing the conversation because I've warned you against such tactics.

Perhaps you overlooked these while searching for grammatical errors or simply ignored them.

I only ignore that which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you cite verses which I see having no bearing whatsoever on the topic of Purgatory, it says to me that you have a poor understanding of the doctrine and so I feel safe in ignoring those verses (for the purposes of discussion, of course).

I don't foresee me getting back to you again, Farris. You've already demonstrated to me a lack of knowledge on the topic at hand, as well as a propensity for telling untruths. Neither of these are conducive to a proper discussion. I will, in closing, allow this concession:

You say you don't believe in what you think the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory represents. I agree with you: I don't believe in what you think the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory represents, either.

[brother vinny]

Hey Brother Vinny,

Now I know if you read that passage in it's proper context you would see that one's "works" are burned and not the one. :smile:

Right. But if you also read the passage carefully, the one suffers loss, but shall be saved, as by fire. :smile:

[Ric]

Right. But if you also read the passage carefully, the one suffers loss, but shall be saved, as by fire. :smile:


10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Please read it for yourself. One's work is loss, so the loss that is suffered is the loss of the works. And where he himself will be saved is one who did not get burned. The "quality" of each one's work refers to the kinds of materials of doctrine and life that are used. The fire is the fire of God's judgment. Fire in Scripture is used figuratively in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mt 3:11; Mk 9:49) and as that which consumes (Mt 3:12; 2Th 1:7-8; Heb 12:29). So it is a fitting symbol here for God's judgment, as he tests the quality of the Christian's work. There is not even a hit of a mythical "purgatory" in this passage.

[brother vinny]

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Please read it for yourself. One's work is loss, so the loss that is suffered is the loss of the works. And where he himself will be saved is one who did not get burned.

That's not what the quoted passage says, Ric. "He himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." Have you ever escaped through flames, Ric? Have you ever been to a burn ward to see those who have escaped through flames? If not, it'd be best if you left your suppositions as to what it means to "escape through flames" rest. And if Paul had meant the Christian would suffer no loss, he could've ended the sentence with "he himself will be saved," without reference to escaping through flames.


The "quality" of each one's work refers to the kinds of materials of doctrine and life that are used.


Actually, it has more to do with things which are eternal vs. things which are temporal. Any attachment to temporal things (i.e., love for this world) is sinful and has to be purged.


The fire is the fire of God's judgment. Fire in Scripture is used figuratively in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mt 3:11; Mk 9:49) and as that which consumes (Mt 3:12; 2Th 1:7-8; Heb 12:29). So it is a fitting symbol here for God's judgment, as he tests the quality of the Christian's work. There is not even a hit of a mythical "purgatory" in this passage.

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree, Ric ol' buddy. Tell you what, though. Should we both make it to Heaven, and I believe we both will, you tell me then how painless it was to watch your temporal works perish, okay?

[Ric]

That's not what the quoted passage says, Ric. "He himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." Have you ever escaped through flames, Ric? Have you ever been to a burn ward to see those who have escaped through flames? If not, it'd be best if you left your suppositions as to what it means to "escape through flames" rest. And if Paul had meant the Christian would suffer no loss, he could've ended the sentence with "he himself will be saved," without reference to escaping through flames.



Actually, it has more to do with things which are eternal vs. things which are temporal. Any attachment to temporal things (i.e., love for this world) is sinful and has to be purged.



Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree, Ric ol' buddy. Tell you what, though. Should we both make it to Heaven, and I believe we both will, you tell me then how painless it was to watch your temporal works perish, okay?

we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

OK, and also notice that Paul's statement implies that once we (believers) die we will be with the Lord. No hint of purgatory. :smile:

[VFarris01]

Greeting Brother Vinny,Darn, forgot about “idea” didn’t I? Still, I maintain Salvation is not a “thing.”Well, then it's a person or place then, isn't it?I would say Salvation is closer to being an “idea” than anything else. Persons, places, and things can be seen and touched; Salvation cannot. Even though my dictionary also gives noun as the part of speech of “Salvation,” the root of the word is “save” and also gives verb sounding definitions such as, “deliverance from sin” and “any means of deliverance from danger, evil, or ruin.” Verbs describe actions don’t they. Let’s leave this alone now shall we; there is no point to it.Potato, potahto. I’m an engineer not an English teacher. My math is considerably better.Yes. You have shown an ability to count. Bravo.Yes I can, made it to eleven without taking off my shoes for the first time yesterday.Your formatting could use work too.Actually, the formatting you refer to is a bit of your own that I forgot to delete. It's hard work making your posts legible.Sorry about the formatting, it’s not my fault. I type in MS Word then paste it into Tweb; blame Tweb, not me. The error you posted does not appear in my original post however.So, five posts on semantics.Yep, you can count! And we have to go over semantics if you define purgatory improperly and refer to it as a "second chance."Nothing works like additional verification of the facts. See below.If you have nothing better than to attack my grammar to avoid the subject we obviously have nothing further to discuss because you have nothing. Might I use your words, "I take it that since you've been reduced to the level of-name-calling (ad hominems) that this is a de facto admission of defeat and, as such, see no further need to kick you while you're already down."You're right. I'll stop with the ad homs.Please, if you stick to the subject, so will I.I didn't "call" Purgatory anything of the sort.Now, would calling you a liar at this point be an ad hom? Here is what you said on 03-16-2004 03:16 PM:This is the “Parable of the Talents.” Purgatory is a “second chance;” there are no second chances, v30.Either this is a lie directly from yourself, in which I feel justified in discontinuing conversation because a liar hasn't got the truth in him anyway. Or this is a lie that you've cut-and-pasted from elsewhere, in which case I feel justified in discontinuing the conversation because I've warned you against such tactics.And I stand by my statement too. Purgatory is a “second chance” for the “remission of sins,” having ones sins “eliminated” (remitted, removed) before entering Heaven. There is simply no scriptural evidence for Purgatory. See also: Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19-20, Acts 10:43, Acts 26:18, Romans 4:7-8, 2 Corinthians 5:19,

(23) There have been many priests, since they have been prevented by death from continuing in office. (24) But because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. (25) Therefore, because he always lives to intercede for them, he is able to save completely those who come to God through him.(26) We need such a high priest-one who is holy, innocent, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. (27) He has no need to offer sacrifices every day like those high priests, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he sacrificed himself. (28) For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.And,

(17) After all, if it is the will of God, it is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong. (18) For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in the sphere of the flesh but was made alive in the sphere of the spirit, (19) in which he went and made a proclamation to those imprisoned spirits (20) who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah, when God waited patiently while the ark was being built. In it a few, that is, eight persons, were saved by water. (21) Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (22) who has gone to heaven and is at the right hand of God, where angels, authorities, and powers have been made subject to him.Why have you yet to address these points?Jude3b posted the bottom line: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9 KJV) There is simply no need for a "Purgatory" to "purify the soul" prior to entering Heaven. If we are "cleansed from all unrighteousness" by the Grace of God and the blood of Christ are not our souls pure and spotless?and,The doctrine of purgatory was first conceptualized in the professing church in the second century; the Roman Church proclaimed it as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548. The Catholic Church teaches that even those "who die in the state of grace" (i.e., saved and sins forgiven) must still spend an indefinite time being purged/purified (i.e., expiated of sins/cleansed for heaven). (Technically, this "purging" can occur in this life rather than in purgatory itself, but as a practical matter, purgatory is the best the average Catholic can hope for.) Some Catholics will admit that the doctrine of purgatory is not based on the Bible, but on Catholic tradition (which, by Catholic standards, is equally authoritative) (Jn. 5:24; Lk. 23:43; 1 Jn. 1:7,9; Phil. 1:23). (Others teach that it is based upon the interpretation of several Scriptural texts -- 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Pe. 1:7; 3:19; Matt. 12:31.) They teach that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and good works of those on earth (which would include the "purchase" of masses and/or other indulgences), but they are not certain how these prayers and works are applied (2 Pe. 1:9; Heb. 1:3; Jn. 3:18; 19:30; 2 Cor. 5:6-8).These points are very relevant.Perhaps you overlooked these while searching for grammatical errors or simply ignored them.I only ignore that which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you cite verses which I see having no bearing whatsoever on the topic of Purgatory, it says to me that you have a poor understanding of the doctrine and so I feel safe in ignoring those verses (for the purposes of discussion, of course).So, are you’re saying since the verses I quote don’t support Purgatory they are irrelevant?, You have yet to present a single verse to support Purgatory now have you? YOU ignored what was relevant to the discussion. Would calling you a liar now be an ad hominem? Problems with formatting, yes, definitely relevant to the discussion. Wheather or not “Salvation” is a verb or a noun, yes, definitely relevant to the discussion. Ad hominems out the ying-yang, yes, definitely relevant to the discussion. Ignoring the facts. Yes, you do only discuss the relevant don’t you?I don't foresee me getting back to you again, Farris.Afraid you might learn something?You've already demonstrated to me a lack of knowledge on the topic at hand, as well as a propensity for telling untruths. Neither of these are conducive to a proper discussion. I will, in closing, allow this concession:You say you don't believe in what you think the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory represents. I agree with you: I don't believe in what you think the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory represents, either.It is clear I am not the one with a “lack of knowledge on the topic.” You have shown repeatedly you don't know anything except “Salvation” is not a verb and how to attack the person but not his argument, congradulations. I don’t believe in Purgatory because it is abundantly clear from scripture there is no such thing and it’s hard to believe in something nonexistent.

(10) As an expert builder using the grace that God gave me, I laid the foundation, and someone else is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. (11) After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus Christ. (12) Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw, (13) the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work (his workmanship, not the person, VF). (14) If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward (not the person, VF). (15) If his work is burned up (not the person, VF), he will suffer loss (of his works, VF). However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire (he will feel emotional pain because his works, labor, did not survive, VF). (16) You know that you are God's sanctuary and that God's Spirit lives in you, don't you? (17) If anyone destroys God's sanctuary, God will destroy him, for God's sanctuary is holy. And you are that sanctuary! God's sanctuary is spotless and without sin, holy, VF)How can anyone get the existence of a Purgatory from these verses?

[VFarris01]

Dear Friends:

The doctrine of Purgatory is unscriptural, there is not one word in the entire scriptures to support it; Purgatory is refuted in a single question:

If any church believes in Purgatory, and in their own power, through prayer, to deliver people from it; why do they not pray all people out of Purgatory immediately for charity's sake?

Prayers of saints or others cannot change our destiny after death. (Hebrews 9:27)

The righteous acts of others cannot be transferred to my credit (before or) after my decease. I must answer for my own acts of my own body. (2 Corinthians 5:10; Romans 1:29)

Prayers or the righteous act of others cannot save someone or even prayers or the righteous acts of oneself. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

After death there is no changing from place of punishment to place of bliss. (Luke 16:19-31)

The Bible knows nothing of indulgences. (Hebrews 2:3)


(27) Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged (Die then be judged. If Purgatory existed this verse would read, “…die once, spend time having their souls purified, and after that to be judged.” VF), (28) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. And He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly wait for him.

[Jude3b]

Jesus bought and paid for His children - true Christians: "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (I Cor. 6:20). The price paid was the blood of Jesus Christ: "... feed the church of God (the body of Christ not some religion likeRoman Catholicism), which he (Jesus) hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28)

[Ric]

Dear Friends:

The doctrine of Purgatory is unscriptural, there is not one word in the entire scriptures to support it; Purgatory is refuted in a single question:

If any church believes in Purgatory, and in their own power, through prayer, to deliver people from it; why do they not pray all people out of Purgatory immediately for charity's sake?

Prayers of saints or others cannot change our destiny after death. (Hebrews 9:27)

The righteous acts of others cannot be transferred to my credit (before or) after my decease. I must answer for my own acts of my own body. (2 Corinthians 5:10; Romans 1:29)

Prayers or the righteous act of others cannot save someone or even prayers or the righteous acts of oneself. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

After death there is no changing from place of punishment to place of bliss. (Luke 16:19-31)

The Bible knows nothing of indulgences. (Hebrews 2:3)


(27) Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged (Die then be judged. If Purgatory existed this verse would read, “…die once, spend time having their souls purified, and after that to be judged.” VF), (28) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. And He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly wait for him.


:thumb:

[VFarris01]

Catholics hold that Purgatory is a necessary state of Purification for most people before they enter Heaven. This is due to the inherently sinful state of men due to Original Sin. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven, and yet no man is clean. Now, men may be made clean during this lifetime, or they may still have a temporal punishment due to their sins that still must be accounted for. As Christ references to in Matt 5:25-26 and Luke 12:58-59, you will not get out "until you have paid the last penny".How can this be in light of:(18) For you know that it was not with perishable things like silver or gold that you have been ransomed from the worthless way of life handed down to you by your ancestors, (19) but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or defect.(14) He gave himself for us to set us free from every wrong and to cleanse us so that we could be his special people who are enthusiastic about good works.Luke 12:47-48 demonstrates that after the Secong Coming, some will receive light beatings from their master and others will receive heavy. But let's consider what we know about Heaven and Hell: In Heaven there are no beatings, and in Hell the torment is everlasting. So this state of temporary punishment is Purgatory.Nice try; now for the facts. Criminals among the Jews could not be beaten with more than forty stripes; and as this was the sum of the severity to which a whipping could extend, it may be all that our Lord here means. But, in some cases, a man was adjudged to receive fourscore stripes! How could this be, when the law had decreed only forty? Answer: By doubling the crime. He received forty for each crime; if he were guilty of two offenses, he might receive fourscore. For petty offenses the Jews in many cases inflicted so few as four, five, and six stripes. From this we find that it is a crime to be ignorant of God’s will because to every one God has given less or more of the means of instruction. Those who have had much light, or the opportunity of receiving much, and have not improved it to their own salvation, and the good of others, shall have punishment proportioned to the light they have abused. On the other hand, those who have had little light, and few means of improvement, shall have few stripes, and shall be punished only for the abuse of the knowledge they possessed.Philippians 2:10 indicates that "at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth." But those in Hell do not and will not submit themselves to the Lord. So where is this third group of people? Purgatory.The Catholic interpretation of everyone everywhere doesn’t really mean everyone everywhere.hilippians 2:10 ISV](10) And so, when Jesus' name is called, The knees of everyone should fall Where'er they are residing.[/font]Hebrews 12:23 indicates that those who die in godliness will be "made" perfect. But in Heaven, people are already perfect, and in Hell, they will not be made perfect. So how is one "made" perfect? Through purgation.Hebrews 12:22-24 ISV](22) Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to tens of thousands of angels joyfully gathered together, (23) to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to a judge who is the God of all, to the spirits of righteous people who have been made perfect, (24) to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel's.The words here are have been not will be. Since we have already been made perfect there is no need for us to be made perfect in Purgatory.[/font]The doctrine of Purgation also rectifies a problem in intepreting 1 Peter that many Protestants have. When Jesus went into "prison" to preach the Gospel to those who had already died, He did not go to Hell, for nothing that goes into Hell will ever come out. Rather, these souls were in Purgatory. There they received the Gospel and were made clean, and thus could enter Heaven.Doesn’t this contradict the “Apostles Creed?” Or is this something else about Catholosism desperately in need of revision?A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.I like your use of the word “allude.” To read these verses in context Purgatory isn’t “alluded” to at all.Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.The key words here are “Catholic teaching” and have nothing to do with the fact Jesus paid our debt of sin by His sacrifice. We are made perfect by the blood of Christ. Many verses confirm this.Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.(31) So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (32) Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come." (33) "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten. For a tree is known by its fruit.Jesus clearly does no such thing. These verses are about blasphemy and have nothing to do with Purgatory. Furthermore, the doctrine of purgatory was first conceptualized in the professing church in the second century; the Roman Church proclaimed it as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548. Some Catholics will admit that the doctrine of purgatory is not based on the Bible, but on Catholic tradition (which, by Catholic standards, is equally authoritative) They teach that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and good works of those on earth (which would include the "purchase" of masses and/or other indulgences), but they are not certain how these prayers and works are.Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.Covered earlier.Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.How wrong you are. The rich man does not want his bretheren to be put in the place of torment he is in, HELL.1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.Paul does indeed mention people being baptized on behalf of the dead he also is chastizing the Corinthians with “If the dead are not raised at all, why are they being baptized for them?” and(33) Stop being deceived: "Wicked friends lead to evil ends." (34) Come back to your senses as you should, and stop sinning! For some of you-I say this to your shame-are without a true knowledge of God.Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.Covered earlier.2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.(16) May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus, for he often took care of me and was not ashamed that I was a prisoner.Paul doesn’t ask for mercy for Onesiphorus, Paul asks for mercy for the family of onesiphorus. Is reading a new thing with you Goldenchild?Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.We are sanctified (made holy) by the blood of Jesus Christ.Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.Covered earlier.1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.1 Peter 3:18 ISV](18) For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in the sphere of the flesh but was made alive in the sphere of the spirit,”Once for all.”[/font]Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.Say what? There will be no tears in Heaven for the pain of “death” has been removed.Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.Revelation 21:27 ISV](27) Nothing unclean, or anyone who does anything detestable, and no one who tells lies will ever enter it. Only those whose names are written in the lamb's Book of Life will enter it.”Only those whose names are written in the lamb’s Book of Life will enter it.” If we are made clean by the blood of Christ and our names are in the Book of Life before going to “Purgatory” what need is there of “Purgatory?”[/font]Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.There is plenty of “weeping” and “mourning” going on in these verses but no prayers for the dead.Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.The use of the phrase “sent forth” means to “prevent entry.”

I will cover more of your post later.