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STR Ambassador
March 15th 2004, 02:01 PM
What's Wrong with "Experiencing God"
by Gregory Koukl

I'm deeply concerned about the Experiencing God curriculum authored by Canadian Baptist minister Henry Blackaby. The book has been around since 1994 and has become a Christian best-seller. Over a million Christians have been taught this material in churches all over the country, including Southern California.
There are a number of things in the book about being a Christian and following Christ that I think are worthwhile. It's the main point of the book, though--not the useful side issues--that is the problem, as I see it.
The goal of Experiencing God, of course, is to teach Christians how to experience God. According to Blackaby, this phrase means something very particular. All one has to do is read the back cover of the book to see this quite clearly: "Experiencing God challenges Christians to experience the fullness of a life lived in a fellowship with the loving, personal God. God reveals Himself to each of us in special and exceptional ways, so our perception of Him is unique." [emphasis mine]
On Blackaby's view, experiencing God--and experiencing the fullness of the Christian life--depends on receiving direct, first-person private, special and unique revelation from Him. Experiencing God is replete with examples of such experiences, so there is no confusion about what Blackaby has in mind.
First-person private revelation is a communication from God that is not directly available to other people, even in principle. If you get information from a dream, a vision, or an inner communication from God, that is first-person private. If you get information from a book, like the Bible, that is third-person public. I can read the same book you are reading. Prophecy given in the church is third-person public, even though it is miraculous. Angels appearing to the apostles is third-person public. Even though it also is miraculous, everyone has equal access to it. It's public.
Of course, you can see the value of third-person public sources of information. If you and I are both reading the same Bible and you say it means one thing and I disagree, we can both look at the words in front of us and assess them, trying to come to a clearer understanding of their truth. However, if you have a first-person private revelation, I have no access to it except as you are willing to share it with me. This is why, historically, first-person private revelation has been reserved to a very select group of people: prophets, Jesus Christ, the apostles, or those with unique gifts in the Body of Christ. In each case, first-person private revelation is given to a properly qualified select few who then pass it on to the rest of the church to study it in a third-person public way.
The main thesis of Experiencing God is that this kind of special revelation isn't unique, but meant to be an ordinary part of every Christian's life. That's what it means to "experience God"--receiving first-person private, unique, and special revelation from God on a regular basis. If you are not regularly getting revelation like this from God, then you are not experiencing God in the sense that Blackaby has in mind. And since experiencing God in this sense is "the core of the Christian life" (Blackaby's phrase), if you are not "hearing the voice of God" the way Jesus, Moses, and the apostles heard it (Blackaby's examples), then you are not living the Christian life. You may be saved, but you are not living the Christian life.
Blackaby attempts to make a biblical case by citing verses like John 10 ("My sheep hear my voice") and pointing to examples of Jesus, Moses and Paul, etc.
I will tell you unequivocally, though--and I have studied this issue a lot--this doctrine, as it is taught in Experiencing God, is not biblical. The Bible does not teach that we are each to hear the voice of God, in that sense, as a regular Christian discipline. It does not equate hearing the voice of God with experiencing God or even with knowing God (Blackaby's misapplication of Jesus' words in John 17).
There is no instruction in the Scriptures guiding us in learning such a skill. Further, this notion is not modeled in the book of Acts or anywhere else as a Christian discipline in the way that Blackaby claims. There are some occasions of special revelation, but they are unique on their face. And in virtually every case they are not first-person private, but third person public.
So Blackaby is teaching as a core, principle Christian discipline--what it means to be a functioning, full-fledged Christian--something the Bible never justifies, never teaches, and does not model. This is a serious problem, as far as I am concerned.
In one way this is not surprising. It is fully in keeping with the spirit of the age: relativism, extreme individualism, and extreme subjectivism. Truth is in the experience.
I have no reason to believe Mr. Blackaby is not a Christian, and I think he is very well intentioned. I just believe he is seriously in error here. He is unwittingly causing the church to embrace aggressively the spirit of the age in which subjective experiences are the source of truth, not the revealed Word of God. Though Blackaby expresses a high view of Scripture, I think his understanding of experiencing God seriously undermines it.

I realize that to many people who feel they have benefited from this curriculum, my comments are tantamount to denying the deity of Christ. I'll take it further. I think a lot of people are more offended at me taking exception with something like Experiencing God than they would be if I actually pressed a heretical notion of the deity of Christ. This shows the tragic straits the church is in. I have been called a heretic for taking exception with the idea that we should expect God to talk to us, giving us regular, special revelation for our lives as He lays out His personal plan for us.
Think about what this charge of heresy means. A heretic is someone who denies a doctrine essential to the faith. Those people who think I'm a heretic for saying that the Bible does not teach we can hear the voice of God (in Blackaby's sense) apparently think that such a capability is a core doctrine of the Christian faith, ergo the charge of "heretic" to those who reject it. It's not a core doctrine.
As J.I. Packer has pointed out, this view is at the most no more than 150 years old. This is a new teaching in the church that reflects not the spirit of Christ but rather the spirit of the age: relativism.
This teaching is terribly destructive. I think this book is the most dangerous thing to hit the church since Benny Hinn's Good Morning, Holy Spirit, and it's dangerous for almost all the same reasons. The unfortunate thing is that, while Good Morning, Holy Spirit appealed more to a somewhat fringe element, Experiencing God has found its way into mainstream evangelical churches, groups that are in most ways sound and biblical. Blackaby has unwittingly taken the subjectivism of the age, baptized it with spiritual language, justified it with poor proof-texts, and then presented it as classical Christianity, the standard by which Christians should judge the richness of their spiritual life.

In response, some will say, "Whatever happened to the apostles in the book of Acts should happen to us, too." That's a mistaken way of thinking. Simply because you see examples of special revelation in the lives of the apostles--miraculous events--doesn't mean we ought to expect the same thing in our lives today.
Just take the equation at face value. Why would anybody believe that just because it happened to the apostles it should happen to us? By very definition, apostles were a unique breed. I'm not arguing that there should be no supernatural events in our lives and that God can't speak if He wants to. I'm just taking this statement at face value: "It happened to the apostles, Jesus, and Moses, therefore it should happen to us." That's an incredible leap of thinking, it seems to me. Just because it happened to the disciples doesn't mean it should happen to us.
Secondly, there is no evidence that the church ever modeled this teaching. I went through every single verse in the book of Acts to try to find evidence of first-person private revelation. Do you know what I found? There were only seven cases of first-person private revelation based on the definition I just gave--only seven in the entire book of Acts. Every single clear case of information given, every single one of them, was a vision.
Visions are what's modeled in the book of Acts, not hearing the voice of God, and even the visions are exceptional occurrences. In his book, though, Blackaby is not promoting the ability to see visions. This is not something you have to learn, getting better at it as time goes on. Visions come on their own. Instead, Blackaby contends that we have to learn to hear the voice of God. That is not modeled in the New Testament. It is not there. (By the way, if this is really the core concept of the Christian life, why did it take almost two millennium for the church to wake up to this fact?)

This is a hard issue to talk about, in some ways, because "hearing from God" is a notion accepted by so many Christians as being a normal part of the Christian life that just to take exception with it is enough to question one's salvation, as mine has been on a number of occasions. But though this view is an accepted one, it's also a largely unexamined notion.
It is a reflection in our American culture that Christianity has become excessively individualistic and excessively subjectivistic. People have cashed out the notion of relationship with God almost completely in experiential terms, allowing a curriculum like this to flourish.
I do agree that when you look in the Gospels and in the book of Acts, you see miraculous happenings. I'm not taking exception with the possibility of the miraculous here. The question is not whether God can work miraculously. He can and often does. The question is not even whether God can speak individually to people. He can, He has done so in the past, and I'm sure He still does sometimes even now.
The real question, rather is this: Does the Christian have a right to expect first-person private revelation from God on a regular basis? Is it appropriate for any Christian to claim he has received such revelation? Is this, in fact, what it means biblically to be a fulfilled Christian who experiences God?
The answer is a resounding "no" to every one of those things. The Scripture does not teach this as a doctrine or as a discipline. It does not encourage people to listen for a unique, private revelation from God. In fact, the only word the Bible encourages us to take heed to is the revealed, written, canonical Word of God given by the apostles, a revelation that is third-person public, not first-person private.
I was just reading 2 Corinthians where Paul makes a rigorous defense for his apostleship, his right to speak for God. In John 14:11, Jesus, when he spoke for God, said, "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; otherwise believe on account of the works themselves." When prophets spoke for God, they signed their testimony in their own blood. They put their lives on the line for the truthfulness of their claims. It ought to be obvious to everyone that to claim God has spoken to an individual is, biblically speaking, a remarkable claim that requires massive justification. The prophets, the apostles, and even Jesus Himself understood this.

What about the gift of prophecy or the gift of knowledge or word of wisdom? I'll say first of all that I believe in the perpetuity of spiritual gifts, so I'm charismatic in that regard. I am not questioning the possibility of God working through gifted people, like prophets. Yes, I believe such things are possible, biblically. That some are given the gift of prophecy or knowledge is not a debate for me. But should everybody be a prophet, receiving God's word directly? No. But that is, essentially, Blackaby's claim. That's my deep concern.
The problem with invoking the word of knowledge or wisdom in this regard is that the Bible never gives us any information about what a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom is. The text makes passing reference to it and that's it. So we can't be dogmatic about what it entails. It could be quite a number of things and we can speculate about it. What we can't do is assume things we don't know with any certainty about word of knowledge and then apply them dogmatically to the general experience of Christians.
Another way of putting it is, I don't have to answer the question of what a word of knowledge is and how it works in order for me to say that Blackaby's understanding of experiencing God is not biblical. Yet I've had that kind of response many times. I may not be sure about word of knowledge, but one thing I am certain of--and I'm able and willing to defend it: The doctrine of hearing the voice of God is not taught in the Bible. In fact, we see quite the opposite.

Regarding John 10 where Jesus says "My sheep hear my voice and follow me," let me make a couple of observations very quickly.
First of all, John explicitly mentions that when Jesus was speaking here He was using a figure of speech. In other words, Jesus didn't literally mean we ought to hear His actual voice. Indeed, the Jews were already hearing His voice in that sense when He made this statement. His mention of hearing His voice is a figure for something else entirely. What does the figure refer to? The effective call of the Holy Spirit drawing people into salvation.
This ought to be very obvious to anyone looking at the context. The Jews were hearing the words of Jesus but not heeding them. Why not? Jesus says because they were not His sheep. "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:26-28)
In other words, Jesus' sheep hear His "voice" before they are saved, they respond to the "voice" and then receive eternal life. Jesus is talking about the call of the Holy Spirit to unregenerate people. He is not talking about on-going conversations with God in which Christians get daily instructions from Jesus by hearing His voice. This is a complete misapplication of this verse.

I realize that many people are going to be upset at what I've said because they have gone through the Experiencing God curriculum and feel they have benefited from it. I do not make the claims I've made here lightly. There are a number of things I see in this material that are serious problems.
First, it presumes a view of God's will that I think is unbiblical, that God communicates His unique desires for each one of us and we are then to follow the blue-print He lays out for us, piece by piece. I deal with this in a four-tape curriculum that Stand to Reason provides called "Decision Making and the Will of God." It is very thorough. You get all of my notes and you can follow my critique verse by verse to see if I'm dealing with the Scriptures accurately.
Second, Blackaby uses very questionable proof texts. Some of his references are atrocious. Even his proof-texting is relativized when he says that the Holy Spirit will show you the true interpretation (i.e., his interpretation).
Third, Blackaby imports completely unbiblical ideas into his argument as if they were biblical. For example, he says that prayer is communication with God and that all real communication is two way. We talk to God and God talks to us. This is false. There are no texts that I know of that suggest prayer is two-way communication. This is a modern definition of prayer, unknown to the biblical text or to the church for two thousand years.
Fourth, Blackaby assumes that miraculous events that seem exceptional by nature are actually to be the norm in the Christian life.
Fifth, Blackaby takes his view of knowing the will of God and hearing the voice of God as features of the normal Christian life. If you don't have this ability, then you are not experiencing real Christianity.
Here is the most serious problem, though. Blackaby does not put it together like this, but I think what follows is a fair conclusion of the effect of his view that will make it clear just how dangerous it is.
Blackaby teaches that Christians ought to hear the voice of God. Now, when God shows Himself in some way, that is called "revelation." When He reveals Himself by speaking, that is called "special revelation." According to Blackaby, then, each Christian should be receiving unique, special revelation from God. That is a necessary part of what it means to live a real Christian life.
Now watch where this thinking naturally leads. On this view, there turns out to be two special revelations. We have the special revelation of the Scriptures, and we have the special revelation of God's unique word to the individual Christian. Both are inerrant, by the way, and infallible. Though the voice of God to individuals is not the same as the Scriptures in the sense that the Bible is meant to be for the whole church and the voice of God is for individuals, the individual voice of God is still a word of God and therefore, of necessity, inerrant and infallible. God is incapable of error regardless of where He speaks.
This sets up an odd situation. We have the infallible word of God in the Scriptures and we have the infallible voice of God to you. There are two revelations of God, but only one of them--the second revelation--allows you to actually experience God. You can't experience God--on Blackaby's definition--simply by knowing the Scriptures and living by them. You need something more. You need a private revelation of God to do that.
Experiencing God does not mean simply following the Scriptures and obeying that which is given to the whole church. You can't reach the epitome of the Christian life by simply obeying the Word. You can only fulfill God's will if you have something more: your own personalized revelation.
Some of you might recognize this as very close to a feature of a second century heresy called Gnosticism.
And for all of the Protestant concern with Catholics about sola Scriptura, one thing can be said of Rome. At least the Catholic Church limits its extra revelation to the Pope, sacred tradition, and the teaching magisterium. It's odd to me that Protestant Christians can vigorously oppose the Roman Catholic Church based on sola Scriptura in one moment and in the next moment teach that it is the birthright of every Christian to get private, authoritative, individual revelation for their own life every day from God. That goes far beyond what Rome has ever claimed.
By the way, what do you think the most profound spiritual movement of the second millennium has been? Would it be fair to say that the Reformation was the most powerful movement of God's Spirit in the last thousand years? Do you know how the Reformation started? It didn't start with Martin Luther hearing the voice of God. He didn't believe in that. It started with a verse of Scripture from the book of Romans, Paul quoting the Old Testament: "The just shall live by faith."
That's the Word of God we are enjoined to hear and to obey and to follow and to study and to know and to apply. That's what causes genuine revivals. Not this un-biblical, 20th century, self-centered notion that every Christian has a divine right to get divine revelation through hearing the voice of God.
For all of its apparent emphasis on God, this view turns out ultimately to be self-centered. It is about one's self; it's not ultimately about Jesus Christ.

*This is an edited transcript from Stand to Reason's radio show in response to a question about the book Experiencing God. It is not meant to be a thorough-going analysis of the curriculum, but a partial and temporary commentary. More information on the issue can be found at www.str.org.

Stand to Reason - Training Christian Ambassadors in the areas of knowledge, wisdom, and character

Trout
March 16th 2004, 03:38 AM
We had a rather lively discussion regarding this very topic in our Sunday School class a few weeks back. I amazed at how deeply ingrained the term, "God spoke to me" is in Christianity. (No one seems to be able to describe His voice however)

I'm in agreement with what you've posted, but I do have one question; In the sixteenth chapter of Matthew there is recorded a dialogue between Peter and Jesus, Jesus asks the question of Peter, "But who do you say that I am?" (V.15) To which Peter replies, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus then proceeds to tell him how he had come to that knowledge, "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven" Jesus continues, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

The "rock" spoken of in that section I have always taken to be the personal revelation from God the Father, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

I would also venture to say that every Christian that I've ever spoken with regarding their conversion has had a very personal, supernatural experience with the living God.

So in that respect, at least at conversion, does everyone "experience God" so to speak?

ephphatha
March 23rd 2004, 02:43 AM
I would also venture to say that every Christian that I've ever spoken with regarding their conversion has had a very personal, supernatural experience with the living God.

So in that respect, at least at conversion, does everyone "experience God" so to speak?

I've never had a supernatural experience with God. I guess a person could make the argument that I'm not really saved, but I have no reason to doubt my own salvation. I've placed my trust in Jesus for my salvation, and I've confessed him as Lord. According to my understanding of the Bible, that makes me a Christian.

I'm in a small group right now going through Rick Warren's book on the purpose driven life, and the last time we met, this subject came up. I just casually commented that I didn't think we needed a supernatural message from God every time we make a decision, and I said that if God made all our decisions for us, we wouldn't need Proverbs, and there'd be no reason to ask for wisdom to help us make our own decisions. Even the moral commandments would all be superfulous since God makes our decisions for us. That caused an unexpected stir. There are only six of us, but one of them and her husband claim that God speaks to her on a regular basis and helps them make decisions. I think I may have offended them. Everybody in the group (with the possible exception of one) seem quite convinced that the Holy Spirit gives them specific direction on a continuous basis, and that's how they should make their decisions. I ended up backing down without saying much. I wasn't sure whether or not it would be worth it to press the issue. Koukl and Friessen have both said that this view will always be met with hostility, and they were right. The issue of decision-making seems to be very practical, so how important is it, really, for us to make a big deal about it? Even if we decide not to make a big deal out of it, it's sometimes hard to avoid because it comes up so often, and the overriding presupposition of most people involved is that the Holy Spirit speaks to them and gives them specific instructions (albeit, ambiguous instructions).

One of the things that has always puzzled me about Friessen's and Koukl's views on decision-making is the role of spiritual gifts. Rick Warren makes what seems to me to be a good point. God gives gifts to people so that they can serve. It stands to reason, then, that if God gives you a particular gift, that it's his specific will for you to use that gift in service.

ephphatha

ajohnson
March 23rd 2004, 08:43 AM
I've never had a supernatural experience with God. I guess a person could make the argument that I'm not really saved, but I have no reason to doubt my own salvation. I've placed my trust in Jesus for my salvation, and I've confessed him as Lord. According to my understanding of the Bible, that makes me a Christian.

Me too, my only supernatural experience with God was when He relieved me of my burden and slavery to sin. Other than that I don't get regular updates from Him.


I'm in a small group right now going through Rick Warren's book on the purpose driven life, and the last time we met, this subject came up. I just casually commented that I didn't think we needed a supernatural message from God every time we make a decision, and I said that if God made all our decisions for us, we wouldn't need Proverbs, and there'd be no reason to ask for wisdom to help us make our own decisions. Even the moral commandments would all be superfulous since God makes our decisions for us. That caused an unexpected stir. There are only six of us, but one of them and her husband claim that God speaks to her on a regular basis and helps them make decisions. I think I may have offended them. Everybody in the group (with the possible exception of one) seem quite convinced that the Holy Spirit gives them specific direction on a continuous basis, and that's how they should make their decisions. I ended up backing down without saying much. I wasn't sure whether or not it would be worth it to press the issue. Koukl and Friessen have both said that this view will always be met with hostility, and they were right. The issue of decision-making seems to be very practical, so how important is it, really, for us to make a big deal about it? Even if we decide not to make a big deal out of it, it's sometimes hard to avoid because it comes up so often, and the overriding presupposition of most people involved is that the Holy Spirit speaks to them and gives them specific instructions (albeit, ambiguous instructions).

I have also been met with less than understanding from some of people in the church I attend. The good thing is our pastors (we have four) agree with us and Greg. The implications of God speaking directly to us are large. If we claim "God told me......" and it 1) doesn't come to pass or 2) goes against what is already written, the implications are terrible. I cautioned my friends whom claim this to be very careful - they are making a claim to be the same as an Old Testament prophet. Not a good thing if they're wrong because it means they have blasphemed (that is claiming God said something and He didn't). It only puts our Lord in a bad light, like He can't make up His mind.


One of the things that has always puzzled me about Friessen's and Koukl's views on decision-making is the role of spiritual gifts. Rick Warren makes what seems to me to be a good point. God gives gifts to people so that they can serve. It stands to reason, then, that if God gives you a particular gift, that it's his specific will for you to use that gift in service.

If you haven't been to str.org, go spend some time there. You won't find a better place to get your feet planted in the firm foundation of Christianity. He has some great commentaries on this and many other subjects.

Regards,

Alan

Solly
March 23rd 2004, 08:55 AM
Just a brief comment, but one of the things that began to ring alarm bells, and eventually turn me away from Catholic forms of spirituality, was the idea that we could "experience God" unmediated. that we could ascend a spiritual ladder to him. there seems to be an implicit nonTrinitarian slant to this idea, as well as an unhealthy leaing towards private spiritual experience of the kind extolled by hermits and mystics down through the ages. the Christian view is that we experience God in Christ by the Spirit, usually via the word.
given that Protestant forms of Spirituality, as practiced by the Reformers and Puritans, ahve long fallen into disuse, it is not surprising that neoCatholic forms have taken their place.
From there it is not a long hop to the private revelations idea, which is very attractive to many, even outside the Evangelical community, as seen by the success of Walsh's books Conversations with God.
People couldn't do much better for themselves than go through the two volumes of John Owen's writings on the Holy Spirit - his Personality and Work, vol 3&4 of his complete works, found on the Ages Christian Library CD, or at CCEL.

Trout
March 23rd 2004, 10:45 AM
I've never had a supernatural experience with God. I guess a person could make the argument that I'm not really saved, but I have no reason to doubt my own salvation. I've placed my trust in Jesus for my salvation, and I've confessed him as Lord. According to my understanding of the Bible, that makes me a Christian.
ephphatha

I think you have had a supernatural experience with God, otherwise you couldn't have taken Christ as savior. According to Matthew, you came to that knowledge through spiritual means.



Me too, my only supernatural experience with God was when He relieved me of my burden and slavery to sin. Other than that I don't get regular updates from Him.

That's the supernatural experience I'm speaking of.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There seems to be a spiritual experience at conversion. The experiencing God crowd wants to take it much further than that.

Solly
March 23rd 2004, 10:53 AM
Yes, my coming to Christ was also a spiritual experience, unlike anything I had had in my previous generally rationalistic life. And I have not expereinced anything quite like it since, although the "perfume of his garments" is sometimes sensed.

Alien
March 23rd 2004, 01:00 PM
As a very new Christian, I have to say that the idea that God is only accessable to us through the writings of people that lived thousands of years ago (if that is indeed the message if the OP) to be disturbing.

As an atheist, I would play "what if" games about how I would relate to God if I ever came to believe in Him. I saw the endless permutations of interpretation of scripture within Christianity, each sect defending its own interpretation of this supposedly "infallible" book, each accusing the other sects of serious error and each finding quite diverse interpretations of the same passages. I therefore concluded that, if I ever did make contact with God, that I would simply ask Him about these things. Why rely on fallible human interpretations of ancient writings, even if the writings themselves could be considered infallible at some level, when I could go direct to the Source?

Well, now I find myself in just that position. I have been made aware of the existence of God; I have been led to Christianity. I accept what I understand to be the "basics" (that God exists, that I am in need of salvation and that I am saved through Jesus Christ). I accept the "basics" because I don't think God would have led me to Christianity (as opposed to any other religion) if it was not correct in at least its most essential form.

So now, having gotten past the "entrance exam" (so to speak), I am confronted with the task of deciding which of the miriad "flavors" of Christian belief I should accept and follow. I have a laundry list of doctrines that I am still saying "I don't know" about (note, not "I don't believe", but "I am deferring a decision"). An example might be salvation. I accept that I am saved through Jesus; I have no clear picture of exactly how this has been accomplished, or which, if any, of the various theories of the atonement is correct. My plan has been to pray and wait for God to guide me in the direction that He wishes me to go. This seems reasonable, as He has guided me so far; why should He suddenly withdraw His guidance? Now I read in this thread that there is somehow something wrong with that approach. God won't guide me. He reserves His communications for a select few. He's like a CEO that only talks to upper management.

Now, it's easy to say "Go read the Bible", but making sense of the Bible is not easy. If it was easy, there would not be libraries full of books, all purporting to "explain" the "true meaning" of the Bible, and most disagreeing with each other, often on quite basic ideas. If it was easy, then there would not be the innumerable denominations of Christianity, each adhering to a different interpretation of scripture.

It seems to me that, if the message of the OP is correct, then I must abandon God as a guide and place myself squarely in the hands of humans, for I have neither the time nor the talent to gain an education in the ancient languages and cultures that seems to be a prerequisite to Bible research. And heck, even those that devote their lives to such research often disagree!

So prayer is not a two-way thing? What's the point of it then? Why should I ask God for guidance if He's not going to respond? Indeed, why should my loving Father withhold that from me? The idea that we have to play some kind of guessing game, with our eternal fate as the prize, while the Source of all truth stands idly by refusing to help, seems not only illogical but in direct contradiction to the loving nature of God.

For the record, I do ask for guidance about everyday actions. Not in everything I do of course, but things that seem important that I don't have an obvious answer to. Quite often, I do seem to receive a response. Nothing audible, no flaming letters in the sky or burning bushes, but enough of a "signature" (this is difficult to explain) that I have confidence that it is from God. So, am I to conclude that this is all in my imagination, because, after all, I am not a prophet? Are my efforts to draw closer to God and listen for His commands in vain?

Color me confused.

ajohnson
March 23rd 2004, 10:05 PM
As a very new Christian, I have to say that the idea that God is only accessable to us through the writings of people that lived thousands of years ago (if that is indeed the message if the OP) to be disturbing.

It's not that He's only accessable to us through writings. It's that the Bible is already His revelation to man. Why should He keep repeating what He's already said. The Bible is all that is needed in the matters of faith, doctrine, and salvation.

The point of Greg Koukl's piece is; Where do we get the idea that God will give each of us special revelation? and more importantly why would Goid give us each special revelation? He's God, He already did everything including a mind that can be trained to think and a will that allows us to do.


Why rely on fallible human interpretations of ancient writings, even if the writings themselves could be considered infallible at some level, when I could go direct to the Source?

Agreed, but first you need to be trained in some things. Things like how to read the Bible. And it's called hermeneutics. I'm sure you already do this when most everything you read - simply put; we're supposed to read and understand the Bible the same way the author meant for us to understand it. Sometimes a narritive, sometimes hypebole, sometimes idioms, etc.

If I said "boy, when I get home, I'm going to be in hot water". You know I mean I'm in trouble. And if I said "I love my wife so much my heart will burst if I don't see her soon" you know my heart won't burst. It's the same way in the Bible, somethings are literal, some aren't. It has to do with context, context, context.


Well, now I find myself in just that position. I have been made aware of the existence of God; I have been led to Christianity. I accept what I understand to be the "basics" (that God exists, that I am in need of salvation and that I am saved through Jesus Christ). I accept the "basics" because I don't think God would have led me to Christianity (as opposed to any other religion) if it was not correct in at least its most essential form.

Great!!! The Lord is so great and compassionate.


An example might be salvation. I accept that I am saved through Jesus; I have no clear picture of exactly how this has been accomplished, or which, if any, of the various theories of the atonement is correct.

Might I suggest you grab a canonical Bible and read the New testament? There are plenty of good translations. Just go to a Bible book store and tell them you're a fairly new Christian - what do they suggest?


My plan has been to pray and wait for God to guide me in the direction that He wishes me to go. This seems reasonable, as He has guided me so far; why should He suddenly withdraw His guidance?

May I be so bold as to ask - How would you know if it was the Lord speaking to you and not your own desires? How would you know if what you were hearing is what God would say? This in the main reason why God put together the Scriptures. So all can know what God desires of everyone. In addition it's said over and over by Paul,


2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Galatians 1:6-9
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

You get my point. The God's word is already recorded. There is no need for another and another and another, especially when most others conflict with the original.


Now I read in this thread that there is somehow something wrong with that approach. God won't guide me. He reserves His communications for a select few. He's like a CEO that only talks to upper management.[

It isn't for a select few, it's for all and it's in the book that has been preserved for thousands of years, the Holy Bible


Now, it's easy to say "Go read the Bible", but making sense of the Bible is not easy.

So true. I read my Bible cover to cover every other year. And each year I get new things out of it. That's one of the benifits of maturing in Christ. God will guide and show you what He wants you to learn, but it isn't normally with a voice in your head. It's when you take the time and learn what He has already said. Try it, get a modern translation and start in the Gospels.


If it was easy, then there would not be the innumerable denominations of Christianity, each adhering to a different interpretation of scripture.

It is sad that there are so many different denominations, but that is the way it is now. Some split over major things (like the nature of Christ), and others because of music. But you are right, many denomination. But if you go to a Bible believing (entire Bible not just a doctrine or two), you'll be on the right path.


It seems to me that, if the message of the OP is correct, then I must abandon God as a guide and place myself squarely in the hands of humans, for I have neither the time nor the talent to gain an education in the ancient languages and cultures that seems to be a prerequisite to Bible research. And heck, even those that devote their lives to such research often disagree!

No, Greg's just saying that to expect special revelation isn't consistant with what is already in the Bible. What is your (not your as in you, but your as in people) final authority when it comes to faith, doctrine, and salvation? The voice in your head or the Bible? What happens when there is (and there will be if you follow your heart) a conflict?


So prayer is not a two-way thing? What's the point of it then? Why should I ask God for guidance if He's not going to respond?

What kind of guidance are you waiting/looking for?


Indeed, why should my loving Father withhold that from me?

I don't think He is. He gives us free will (to an extent), we are free to choose the job to work in, but He wants us to glorify Him in what ever job we choose. We are free to live in what and where we choose, but He wants to be gloified by you to your neighbors.

I've read many of your posts and I can attest that in your posts you glorify God in that endevour. You show understanding, you show compassion, you show many of God's characteristics in your posts. This is His desire, in that all you do, glorify Him.


The idea that we have to play some kind of guessing game, with our eternal fate as the prize, while the Source of all truth stands idly by refusing to help, seems not only illogical but in direct contradiction to the loving nature of God.

No guessing game, it's all included in His word.


For the record, I do ask for guidance about everyday actions. Not in everything I do of course, but things that seem important that I don't have an obvious answer to. Quite often, I do seem to receive a response. Nothing audible, no flaming letters in the sky or burning bushes, but enough of a "signature" (this is difficult to explain) that I have confidence that it is from God. So, am I to conclude that this is all in my imagination, because, after all, I am not a prophet? Are my efforts to draw closer to God and listen for His commands in vain?

You should only conclude this, if what you receive goes against God's already set down precepts, it isn't from God.

My own two cents worth.

Regards,

Alan

Alien
March 25th 2004, 04:18 PM
Hi Alan, thanks for the thoughtful reply. A few comments:



The point of Greg Koukl's piece is; Where do we get the idea that God will give each of us special revelation? and more importantly why would Goid give us each special revelation? He's God, He already did everything including a mind that can be trained to think and a will that allows us to do.

I didn't really mean that I expected God to give us all a separate Bible! Some help with interpreting it would be appreciated though!



Agreed, but first you need to be trained in some things. Things like how to read the Bible. And it's called hermeneutics. I'm sure you already do this when most everything you read - simply put; we're supposed to read and understand the Bible the same way the author meant for us to understand it. Sometimes a narritive, sometimes hypebole, sometimes idioms, etc.

Doesn't this tend to exclude those that lack the ability to make this kind of analysis? In fact we do see this ... many follow leaders somewhat blindly, not always in directions that we would wish.



Great!!! The Lord is so great and compassionate.

Amen!



Might I suggest you grab a canonical Bible and read the New testament? There are plenty of good translations. Just go to a Bible book store and tell them you're a fairly new Christian - what do they suggest?

I already have a "Starting Point Study Bible" (NIV), but I'm not getting into it as perhaps I should because of these doubts over interpretation.



May I be so bold as to ask - How would you know if it was the Lord speaking to you and not your own desires? How would you know if what you were hearing is what God would say?

That's a good question. The answer is that of course I can't be absolutely sure. I use a number of tests ... is what is said consistent with what I understand the nature of God to be? That excludes urges to buy a uzi and mow down everyone that annoys me .... Does it give an answer to a question that I have recently asked in prayer? .... Does it supply something new and non-obvious? ... What is the effect of putting the "advice" into practice? And there is a certain quality that I have learned to recognise. Could all this be dreamed up by my own subconscious mind? Yep. But then, I wonder if many of the Bible authors could describe their inspirational experiences in any more convincing terms.



You get my point. The God's word is already recorded. There is no need for another and another and another, especially when most others conflict with the original.

Yes I do. What I'm looking for is not so grandiose, however. (See below)



No, Greg's just saying that to expect special revelation isn't consistant with what is already in the Bible. What is your (not your as in you, but your as in people) final authority when it comes to faith, doctrine, and salvation? The voice in your head or the Bible? What happens when there is (and there will be if you follow your heart) a conflict?

What happens when there is a conflict between interpretations of a particular Biblical passage between two people, each devout, each intelligent, each well educated? We have to make up our own minds, unfortunately.

If God seemed to be telling me something that was roundly contradicted by the Bible (as opposed to a shade of meaning) then ... I don't know. I would have to engage in a lot more study and prayer before deciding. But, if I'm sincerely asking God for an answer, why would he allow me to continue to believe that He had given me a answer whan that was not the case?



What kind of guidance are you waiting/looking for?

Ah, the $64K question. What I want more than anything else is an answer to this question: "To what extent should I trust the Bible to be Your word?" I've asked this a lot, and received no answer. A positive answer would enable me to proceed with Bible study as you have suggested.

At the other end of the scale, I ask for guidance in small things. This is a fictitious example, that hopefully illustrates what I mean. I see a homeless person that asks me for a handout. I don't need to ask God whether He wants me to help this person; that is clear. On the other hand, if I give him money, he may buy himself a meal or he may just spend it on booze. If the latter, is there a better way to help him? The big answer (yes, help him) is in the Bible, but I definitely need help with the details.



I've read many of your posts and I can attest that in your posts you glorify God in that endevour. You show understanding, you show compassion, you show many of God's characteristics in your posts. This is His desire, in that all you do, glorify Him.

Thank you. I have felt that the Holy Spirit is working in me, but it's good to receive confirmation from an unbiased observer. It's a wonderful thing to be used by God, is it not?

Thanks again,
Tony

ajohnson
March 25th 2004, 07:35 PM
I didn't really mean that I expected God to give us all a separate Bible! Some help with interpreting it would be appreciated though!

Interpretation is a funny thing. **Disclaimer** I'm Not Bragging **Disclaimer**

I've read the Bible in the following translations KJ, American Standard, New American Standard, New International Version. I've found all of them to say pretty much the same thing. The words might be different, but the meanings, concepts, and principles are the same.

So what if the individual words are a little different. I don't know of any major differences among the translations.

Some Bibles are word for word translations (KJ), others are verse by verse translation (NIV).


Doesn't this tend to exclude those that lack the ability to make this kind of analysis? In fact we do see this ... many follow leaders somewhat blindly, not always in directions that we would wish.

So true, but many times it isn't because they've misunderstaood the Bible, it's that they deem some of the Bible not really God's revelation to man. Not God's word, but mans word about God.


I already have a "Starting Point Study Bible" (NIV), but I'm not getting into it as perhaps I should because of these doubts over interpretation.

Sounds complicated to me. Maybe start with a quick book like A Basic Guide to Interpreting the Bible, playing by the rules? If you pm me and give me your address, I'll mail one to you. I have some left over from a Bible study I conducted on this very subject.



That's a good question. The answer is that of course I can't be absolutely sure. I use a number of tests ... is what is said consistent with what I understand the nature of God to be? That excludes urges to buy a uzi and mow down everyone that annoys me .... :lol:



Does it give an answer to a question that I have recently asked in prayer? ....

Good.


Does it supply something new and non-obvious?

Why new and non-obvious?


... What is the effect of putting the "advice" into practice? And there is a certain quality that I have learned to recognise. Fauith in Action! This is the best thing you can do. As we mature in our Christianity our actions will change.

**Disclaimer** I'm not bragging **Disclaimer**

For instance, When I was a new Christian, I could hardly talk to my friends, much less strangers, about spiritual matters. Now after 20+ years, I teach a 7 part series called Making Abortion Unthinkable to any church that allows me too. I write a bi-monthly coulmn for one of our local newspaper that deals only with Christian ethics, values, and doctrine. I help out at the local crisis pregnancy center, etc.

The point of this is to demonstrate the truthfulness of God's word. As you 'Step out in faith' to do the work God would have us do, more opportunities to display God's character are made available. I could only do these things if I was sure that the Word of God I read is the very words of God.


Could all this be dreamed up by my own subconscious mind? Yep. But then, I wonder if many of the Bible authors could describe their inspirational experiences in any more convincing terms.

I would have to say yes! If you read all the passages about God speaking to humans there is not one doubt who it was speaking to them. They didn't say "I'm hearing this small, almost unrecognizable, voice - I wonder if it's God?" They know exactly who was speaking to them and exactly what was said.


What happens when there is a conflict between interpretations of a particular Biblical passage between two people, each devout, each intelligent, each well educated? We have to make up our own minds, unfortunately.

So true! But we make up our own minds based on our understanding of the character of God. When people don't think the entire cannonical Bible is God's word, they can't understand the entire character God has revealed to us. Ergo - errors creep into their thinking about the do's and don'ts of God.


If God seemed to be telling me something that was roundly contradicted by the Bible (as opposed to a shade of meaning) then ... I don't know. I would have to engage in a lot more study and prayer before deciding. But, if I'm sincerely asking God for an answer, why would he allow me to continue to believe that He had given me a answer whan that was not the case?

Another (in a series) of great question! I would have to say that if I thought God was telling me something contrary to what He has already said, it isn't from Him and I would ignore it.


What I want more than anything else is an answer to this question: "To what extent should I trust the Bible to be Your word?" I've asked this a lot, and received no answer. A positive answer would enable me to proceed with Bible study as you have suggested.

Ah, but you have - it's in Timothy (2 Tim 3:16) and elsewhere. Matt 22 is a great example of people only believing some of the Scripure is God's word and Christ says

Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God"


At the other end of the scale, I ask for guidance in small things. This is a fictitious example, that hopefully illustrates what I mean. I see a homeless person that asks me for a handout. I don't need to ask God whether He wants me to help this person; that is clear. On the other hand, if I give him money, he may buy himself a meal or he may just spend it on booze. If the latter, is there a better way to help him? The big answer (yes, help him) is in the Bible, but I definitely need help with the details.

Great example! Help the homeless in the best way you can. Bring him food or pay for one nights stay in a motel, or offer him some work so he might get paid. Our Lord doesn't care how you help, but we are told to help. And giving a drunk, booze is bad. But giving a homeless person money is different. If you don't know he's going to just spend it on booze, no problem - but if you don't want to give a homeless person money, that's A-OK too. Free will! Such a great thing - we just need to do things that glorify our Lord.


Thank you. It's a wonderful thing to be used by God, is it not? You're welocme - but I'm not unbiased. I'm the most biased person I know.

When I'm being used by God, I feel so unworthy of His time. I'm the worst sinner you can imagine, but because of Christ God sees me through a filter of white as snow. I'm lucky to be alive, in this day and age.

Tony, do let me know if I can send you this really small study book. It's only 200 pages and 13 chapters. A quick read. It might help you out a lot.

Best regards,

Alan

Alien
March 26th 2004, 12:46 PM
Sounds complicated to me. Maybe start with a quick book like A Basic Guide to Interpreting the Bible, playing by the rules? If you pm me and give me your address, I'll mail one to you. I have some left over from a Bible study I conducted on this very subject.

Yes please. PM sent.


Why new and non-obvious?

I knew I hadn't put that well. What I mean is that the more new information the "message" gives me, the less likely it is to be a product of my own mind.



The point of this is to demonstrate the truthfulness of God's word. As you 'Step out in faith' to do the work God would have us do, more opportunities to display God's character are made available. I could only do these things if I was sure that the Word of God I read is the very words of God.


Right. That's the certainty (one way or the other) that I'm looking for. I can even live with the idea that the Bible is a history of men's ideas about God, but I need to know!



I would have to say yes! If you read all the passages about God speaking to humans there is not one doubt who it was speaking to them. They didn't say "I'm hearing this small, almost unrecognizable, voice - I wonder if it's God?" They know exactly who was speaking to them and exactly what was said.

Hmmm.



Another (in a series) of great question! I would have to say that if I thought God was telling me something contrary to what He has already said, it isn't from Him and I would ignore it.

So, if your interpretation of the Bible happened to be wrong, how could God ever correct you?



Ah, but you have - it's in Timothy (2 Tim 3:16) and elsewhere. Matt 22 is a great example of people only believing some of the Scripure is God's word and Christ says

Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God"

"Everything I say in this post is the absolute truth". There, that proves my authority doesn't it? My point of course is that if I am trying to establish the authenticity of the Bible, I can't use what the Bible says about itself. That's circular. I need a starting point outside the Bible, which is why I am asking for God's help. (Sorry to be awkward, but I was a skeptic for a long while and old habits ....)



You're welocme - but I'm not unbiased. I'm the most biased person I know.


Eh? Why am I listening to you? Just kidding, I will take all your advice on board and ponder it it with everything else I have heard and read.



When I'm being used by God, I feel so unworthy of His time. I'm the worst sinner you can imagine, but because of Christ God sees me through a filter of white as snow. I'm lucky to be alive, in this day and age.

Hmmm, off topic, but ... I don't feel that way at all. Of course I am a sinner, we all are, but God obviously thinks we are worthy of His time, and patience, and grace. I see us as trainees, who will eventually, with God's help, be worthy to be with Him. So long as I don't start thinking that I am glorified by any of this, I don't see why I can't take a modest pleasure in my relationship with God, do you? (Why do you think you are lucky to be alive?)

Tony

elysian
March 26th 2004, 01:24 PM
1 John 4:1 (NIV)
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Proverbs 14:12 (NIV)
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Romans 15:4 (NIV)
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)
All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Any existential experience that we have of God as well as any teaching we receive needs to be weighed against Scripture. This is the reason why Luke (who was also the writer of Acts) had such high praise for the Bereans- they didn't just listen to Paul, they listened to Paul AND tested what he said against Scripture. It is wise for us to do so as well, even at our own churches and when listening to our own Pastors, for they too are human and fallible. We should respect the pastoral office (hopefully our Pastors are capable and learned leaders) but we are also obligated to learn and grow and understand for ourselves, as well as realizing that even Pastors are subject to error, just as we are.

We must "test the spirits" as well. If the "spirits" are proposing something contraindicated in Scripture, those are not "spirits" from God. There is nothing the devil loves more than Christians who get mired in spiritism or New Age or other potentially harmful or demonic practices out of their own ignorance or trusting a "spirit" without testing it first.

summathetes
November 11th 2004, 01:20 PM
As an Evangelical Christian, and one who read through Experiencing God several years ago, I do not take exception to the information of which you have presented.

In response to "special revelation", I do not contend that it should be expected nor is it our right to expect such an encounter with God. I do not believe that "special revelation" is impossible to encounter simply based on the Deity of God. Who are we to call God and "expect" Him to speak back. God chooses what He wills.

What I walked away with after reading Experiencing God is that God speaks to us through Prayer, the Bible, other Christians, and experience. The later of which I personally believe draws us to a more intimate understanding of God when we have submitted to His will and placed our faith in Him. Within the church itself, I draw a distinct correlation between one who does not produce fruit and their lack of zeal because they have not experienced God in this way. I'm a firm believer in the pursuit to obtain the knowledge of God (although infinite), but I have yet to discover a substitute that changes one's life like an experience in which God used one's faith and manifested it to His glory.

Thank you Greg for the continuing pursuit of TRUTH!