Does your Christian doctrine necessitate a possible godless origin?

[Bald Ape]

It seems that if a god created a universe that rendered a natural origin impossible, the god would not be giving inhabitants of that universe a choice in whether or not to believe in it. By extension, wouldn't standard christian free-will doctrine be violated, were the Judeo-Christian god to have created our universe in such a way? Begging the question: is it possible that our origins are natural?

[Captain Ochre]

Today @ 07:07 PM
Bald Ape:

It seems that if a god created a universe that rendered a natural origin impossible, the god would not be giving inhabitants of that universe a choice in whether or not to believe in it. By extension, wouldn't standard christian free-will doctrine be violated, were the Judeo-Christian god to have created our universe in such a way? Begging the question: is it possible that our origins are natural?

By that kind of logic, Jesus' disciples were forced to believe in God via his miracles and resurrection (for example).
That a truth is self-evident doesn't necessitate that it will be universally accepted.

[Bald Ape]

I had always thought there were Christians who held to the precept that their God would never offer irrefutable proof of his existence, but for a chosen few. E.g., my question, "Why doesn't God just come on down and have a face-to-face chat with me (through a burning bush, or whatever), if he wants me to believe in him so much?", is generally answered with: "If God gave you irrefutable proof of his existence, you'd have no free will in your choice to believe in him". Does this response conflict with your Christian doctrine?

TO MODERATOR: I think this was a mistake to post this here - it's got a much more philosophical slant than I realized it would. Any chance it could be moved to a more philosophical board, like religion 101? Oh, and I'll try to stop doing this. :)

[Socrates]

That's an aberrant view, and the Captain is right. Jesus cited Abraham with approval to a rich man in Hades (Luke 16:31):
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.
Further, Jesus did three special miracles which the Rabbis had taught only the Messiah could do, i.e. healing a Jewish leper, exorcising a demon that caused deafness and dumbness, and giving sight to a man born blind. Yet most rejected Him anyway because of the hardness of their hearts, and instead attributed His miracles to alliance with Beelzebub (Matthew 12).

[Carl Smuda]

Yesterday @ 11:07 AM here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=40883#post40883)
Bald Ape:

It seems that if a god created a universe that rendered a natural origin impossible, the god would not be giving inhabitants of that universe a choice in whether or not to believe in it. By extension, wouldn't standard christian free-will doctrine be violated, were the Judeo-Christian god to have created our universe in such a way? Begging the question: is it possible that our origins are natural? If the Lord God Almighty is the maker of heaven and earth, how can we speak in terms of existence from Almighty being unnatural? All that is is. Existence is what it is.

[Socratism]

I once read a comprehensive study of miracles in the Bible which concluded that miracles never bring faith to those who did not already believe in God. There could be rare exceptions, but I can't think of any offhand.

I think God amply demonstrated that miracles do not change minds in both the old and new testaments, which is why I believe that the the period of public miracles was terminated sometime around the latter part of the book of Acts.

As far as a natural (as opposed to supernatural) creation of the universe and life, the concept is totally without any scientific foundation. It is merely an exercise in speculation.

[Jin-Roh]

Socrates made a good point on listening to the prophets.
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
But He answered and said to them, " An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matt 12:38-40

The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 2:18-22


It doesn't matter how much of a sign is given. I believe that most people just choose to cognitively disbelieve in God not matter what kind of evidence comes up in support of his existance. This was the way the Pharisees thought, and not much has changed.

When the all the sudden the entire Body of Christ vanishes, people will say "aliens did it." When the stars and moon suddenly dissappear people will cry, "stange, natural, phenonmen" and when Christ finally comes back and everyone sits before the white throne people will say "you didn't give me enough evidence."

[Woman]

Socratism:
I think God amply demonstrated that miracles do not change minds in both the old and new testaments, which is why I believe that the the period of public miracles was terminated sometime around the latter part of the book of Acts.


OH NOOOOOOO!

Who's gonna tell Benny Hinn?

[Captain Ochre]

Today @ 04:35 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44298#post44298)
Woman:

Socratism:



OH NOOOOOOO!

Who's gonna tell Benny Hinn?

:huh:
If you mentioned something like that to Benny, then you might lack sufficient faith for him to heal you . . .

[Woman]

Capt.
If you mentioned something like that to Benny, then you might lack sufficient faith for him to heal you . . .

Yes - I'm sure he would. You recall the Dead Parrot/Pet Shop skit courtesy of another "Benny?" Well, can't you just see Hinn telling me my leg is NOT boken? :bonk:

Oh dear, sometimes a little laughter is good :lol:

[Jin-Roh]

Yesterday @ 08:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44298#post44298)
Woman:

Socratism:



OH NOOOOOOO!

Who's gonna tell Benny Hinn?

Hey be quiet! If you attack benny, your children will be cursed. I know this because God spoke through Benny Hinn saying that. Thus Saith Benny Hinn!! Don't mess with that guy, even when he violates scripture and sounds like Joseph Smith.

(Jin-roh doesn not like Benny Hinn in case you haven't noticed, although I do believe in modern day miracles)

[Socrates]

:eek: God just might give Benny the Holy Spirit machine gun he wishes for so he can blow his critics away. :bonk:

[Woman]

Bald Ape:
Why doesn't God just come on down and have a face-to-face chat with me (through a burning bush, or whatever), if he wants me to believe in him so much?", is generally answered with: "If God gave you irrefutable proof of his existence, you'd have no free will in your choice to believe in him". Does this response conflict with your Christian doctrine?
Socrates:
That's an aberrant view, and the Captain is right. Jesus cited Abraham with approval to a rich man in Hades.
(Luke 16:31):
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.
Socrates:
Further, Jesus did three special miracles which the Rabbis had taught only the Messiah could do, i.e. healing a Jewish leper, exorcising a demon that caused deafness and dumbness, and giving sight to a man born blind. Yet most rejected Him anyway because of the hardness of their hearts, and instead attributed His miracles to alliance with Beelzebub (Matthew 12).

Well, I guess belief is a funny thing. From various accounts in the OT and the NT I am not convinced that the average person in the ANE was too discerning. Apparantly they were all convinced of the existance of a variety of supernatural beings and phenomenon. These were people for whom life, birth, sickness and death were surrounded with mystery and superstition. I don't think it was so much that a non-believer couldn't be persuaded by a miracle or two, it was that "miracles" were seen as just another manifestation of things they didn't understand. The very next unexplained event could change their mind again.

Visions and dreams were interpreted as real and magic was almost taken for granted. I recall no one fainting when Pharoah's magician turned a cane into a snake. It's tough to impress a crowd used to things like this. And no one seemed to be astonished when a member of the family became demon-possessed.

Either that or, maybe some of the stories from scripture are apocryphal.

If my family from the time of my great-great-grandfather had passed down a tale like the story of the Flood I would be a believer. I mean, we're talking total distruction of the whole world and everything and eveyone that lived on it, then the struggle to survive and repopulate. That's like your great-great-grandfather and mother being the first people who ever lived!! I can't comprehend how, from the time of Noah's ordeal to the time of Moses, which was only about 5 generations, that the details, horror and truth of what happened wouldn't be so firmly imbedded in their consciousness, that Moses would have such a tough time keeping his group away from golden calves.

I guaran-fully-tee you that I, on the other hand, and many people of my acquaintance - would be mightily impressed to see someone raised from the dead. But then, I'm not impressed with Benny Hinn's healings, so who knows?

And then again, look how many people DO believe in Benny. Maybe the people of today aren't so different after all.

[Socratism]

If my family from the time of my great-great-grandfather had passed down a tale like the story of the Flood I would be a believer.

Have you bought into that old lie which treats the major accounts in the Bible as having been passed down by "oral tradition" ?

[Socratism]

. Maybe the people of today aren't so different after all.

Whatever in the world ever gave you the idea that they wouldn't be?

[Socratism]

I can't comprehend how, from the time of Noah's ordeal to the time of Moses, which was only about 5 generations, that the details, horror and truth of what happened wouldn't be so firmly imbedded in their consciousness, that Moses would have such a tough time keeping his group away from golden calves.

I can't believe you said that.

Only 8 people survived the Flood and within about 10 generations or so (about 200-300 years) the memory probably had faded so considerably that God had to confuse the languages so that they would disperse throughout the world. By that time there could have been millions of human beings.

The majority of people living today would gladly appease dictators in order to gain temporary peace, despite the fact that there are still people living today who can remember what the appeasements of Hitler and Stalin got us.

Where did you ever get the idea that there were only 5 generations between Noah and Moses?

[Socrates]

Woman:
Well, I guess belief is a funny thing. From various accounts in the OT and the NT I am not convinced that the average person in the ANE was too discerning.Ah yes, the chronological snobbery comes out, "ancient people were stupid." And of course we're oh-so-wise since every major newspaper has horoscopes! Apparantly they were all convinced of the existance of a variety of supernatural beings and phenomenon.Maybe because they had evidence for them, while Woman has a DOGMA against them! These were people for whom life, birth, sickness and death were surrounded with mystery and superstition. I don't think it was so much that a non-believer couldn't be persuaded by a miracle or two, it was that "miracles" were seen as just another manifestation of things they didn't understand. Nonsense, the ancients were just as skeptical of miracles. E.g. he ancients knew very well how babies are made — needing both a man and a woman, although they did not know certain details about spermatozoa and ova. In fact, Joseph (Mt. 1:19) and Mary (Lk. 1:34) questioned the announcements of the Virginal Conception because they did know the facts of life, not because they did not! Similarly, ancients didn’t know about bacterial enzyme-catalyzed hydrolysis of basic amino acids producing diaminoalkanes which strongly stimulate olfactory receptors, but they knew that a corpse will stink after a few days, and they informed Jesus of this before He raised Lazarus from the dead.The very next unexplained event could change their mind again. More handwaving, and avoiding the clear evidence for Jesus's resurrection.

If my family from the time of my great-great-grandfather had passed down a tale like the story of the Flood I would be a believer. I mean, we're talking total distruction of the whole world and everything and eveyone that lived on it, then the struggle to survive and repopulate. That's like your great-great-grandfather and mother being the first people who ever lived!! I can't comprehend how, from the time of Noah's ordeal to the time of Moses, which was only about 5 generations, that the details, horror and truth of what happened wouldn't be so firmly imbedded in their consciousness, that Moses would have such a tough time keeping his group away from golden calves. Socratism has already alluded to evidence that Genesis was probably compiled from written accounts -- see The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship (http://www.trueorigin.org/tablet.asp).

I will add that Woman is displaying graphocentrism by ignoring the way oral tradition was transmitted very reliably in cultures that were mainly oral. The presence of hostile witnesses was a check, and they also used techniques akin to those of modern memory-improvement seminars which enabled excellent semantic recall. See On the Reliability of Oral Tradition (http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_03_01_01.html).