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Kenny
March 21st 2003, 04:23 PM
This is my first post on the Theology Web. Some of you may recognize me from the Secular Web which is where I usually post. But, I thought this discussion would be far more appropriate over here.

I have come to adopt a Calvinistic understanding of election and salvation. Below I refute the charge that Calvinism is inconsistent with a motive for evangelism that seeks to have a genuine causal impact on the prospect of someone’s salvation. I’m thinking about working this argument up into a paper someday, so I am interested in seeing what any potential criticisms of it might be. Right now, I only have the argument in an outline type structure, so I hope it is not too difficult to follow. I'll need to seperate this into two posts because of the length.
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Thesis: A strong Calvinistic doctrine of election is not inconsistent with a motive for evangelism that seeks to have a genuine causal impact on whether or not a person will receive salvation. It is also not inconsistent with a motive for evangelism that seeks to increase the probability that a person will receive salvation.

Scenario: Jill is a Calvinist who is considering whether or not she should witness to Bob whom she genuinely cares for and hopes will be saved. Jill is aware that Christ commands her, in the great commission, to spread her faith and that such a motivation ought to be sufficient for her to witness, but Jill is also timid and wonders if there is any further motivation she can draw upon to help spur her on to witness to Bob. Specifically, she wonders whether her witness or lack thereof to Bob has any relevance to Bob’s salvation. “After all,” Jill thinks, “if Bob is elect then it is certain that he will be saved and if Bob is not elect then it is certain that Bob will not be saved.” “So,” Jill wonders, “does my witnessing or not witnessing to Bob have any real causal relevance to whether Bob will or will not receive salvation? Does it make Bob’s salvation any more or less likely.” Jill is aware that the standard Calvinist view is that God’s sovereign grace in brining about the salvation of the elect is worked through the means of the preaching the Gospel on the part of human beings, “But,” Jill asks herself, “if I don’t witness to Bob and Bob is elect then God will just use someone else to do it or use some other means. Why should I overcome my shyness and witness to Bob if God will just use someone else if I don’t?”

Sub-Thesis: Counterfactual analysis shows that, while God’s decree of election may make whether or not Bob will receive salvation certain, it can still be consistently maintained that there are meaningful senses in which Jill’s witnessing to Bob or lack thereof is causally relevant to whether or not Bob receives salvation and that, by witnessing to Bob, Jill might significantly increase the probability that Bob receives salvation.

Preliminary Comments:

1.) Causal Relevance and Counterfactuals: Although a full analysis of the concept of causality would prove rather difficult, questions of causal relevance are essentially counterfactual questions. When historians try to trace out causal connections between events, for example, they often find themselves having to speculate about what would have happened if this or that historical event had not taken place or had occurred differently. Thus, if A and B are two events that have occurred and A has temporally preceded B, it can be said that event A is causally relevant to event B if the statement “If it were the case that, all else being equal, A had not occurred, B would not have occurred” is non-trivially true. This is not intended to be an exhaustive treatment of causality, but as one that is sufficient for present purposes.

2.) Possible Worlds: What does it mean for the counterfactual statement “If it were the case that, all else being equal, A had not occurred, B would not have occurred” to be non-trivially true. Normal first order predicate logic is insufficient to give an adequate account of such a statement because, in first order predicate logic, the statement “If not A then not B” is trivially true provided that antecedent and the consequent are both known to be false. However, for a causal analysis, it would seem essential to capture the idea of some sort of stronger connection between A and B. This is often accomplished by adding the modal term ‘necessarily’ to the above conditional, where ‘necessarily’, in this context, might be interpreted to mean “true in all logically possible worlds.” The statement “Necessarily, if not A then not B” may be non-trivially true or non-trivially false regardless of what the truth values of the antecedent and consequent actually are. Formally, the statement ‘Necessarily, if not A then not B’ would be written as ‘[](~A -> ~B)’. One more nuance must be added to the above analysis of causal relevance. “If not A then not B,” where A and B refer to contingent events, seems rather unlikely to be true in *all* possible worlds since, in many worlds, causal correlations are likely to be different than in our own. In addition, causal connections may differ from world to world depending on other contingent circumstances besides the particular events being discussed. We may rid ourselves of former difficulty, however, simply by restricting ourselves to worlds with causal correlations relevantly similar to the types of causal correlations that hold in our own world. We may remove ourselves from the later difficulty by restricting the domain of worlds involved to those worlds with relevantly similar contingent circumstances up to the time of event A. In the definitions of terms given in the model soon to follow below, this function is served by the ‘X’ term.

3.) God’s Sovereign Decree and Causal Relevance: On a strong view of God’s decree, God’s sovereign decree makes all possible future outcomes certain. However, it seems clear that such a view does not cancel out the above notion of causal relevance. For instance, suppose Joe gets up in the morning at 5:30a and drinks a cup of coffee at 6:00a on May 18, 2003. On a strong view of God’s sovereign decree, it was certain that Joe would drink a cup of coffee at 6:00a on that date because God had decreed that Joe would do so (since God’s sovereign degree is taken to encompass all contingent events). Nevertheless, it still seems meaningful to say that if Joe had slept in until 6:15a on May 18, 2003, he would not have drank coffee at 6:00a on that day. Thus, the event of Joe’s waking up before 6:00a on May 18, 2003 is causally relevant to the event of Joe’s drinking a cup of coffee at 6:00a on May 18, 2003, even if God’s sovereign decree made the event Joe’s drinking a cup of coffee at 6:00a on that date certain. In other words, there are still possible worlds where Joe does not drink a cup of coffee at 6:00a because he did not get up before 6:00a, even if God’s decree insures that such worlds are not actualized. The relevance of this discussion will play itself out in the analysis below.

4.) Objective and Epistemic Probabilities: Epistemic probabilities concern themselves with how much warrant a proposition (such as “Bob will receive salvation”) has on the background information of which one is aware. Objective probabilities concern themselves with the ratio of possible worlds, given certain restrictions, in which a proposition is true compared to the number of worlds in which it is false. Sometimes these probabilities are closely related to one another and sometimes they radically diverge, depending on the circumstances. The analysis below is primarily concerned with objective probabilities, though it is plausible that in some situations such probabilities might closely parallel epistemic probabilities as well.

Analysis:

Below I present a logically consistent model in which Jill’s decision to witness to Bob or refrain from witnessing to Bob is both causally relevant to Bob’s receiving salvation and in which Jill’s choice to witness to Bob can be meaningfully said to increase the objective probabilities that Bob will receive salvation, even given a strong Calvinistic doctrine of election.

Kenny
March 21st 2003, 04:24 PM
Definitions:

[] Necessity Operator

~ Negation Operator

& ‘And’ Operator

-> Implication Operator

X The relevant set of circumstances in Jill’s world, excluding God’s degree regarding Bob’s election, up to the time when Jill decides whether or not to witness to Bob

BE “Bob is Elect”

BS “Bob will receive salvation”

Jw “Jill decides to witness to Bob”

Y Some possible future set of circumstances, with respect to the point in time when Jill decides whether or not to witness to Bob, by which Bob might also be exposed to the message of the Gospel.

P(x) “The probability of x”

P(x/y) “The probability of x given y”


Premises:

P1. X
P2. [](BE -> BS)
P3. [](~BE -> ~BS)
P4. [](~Jw &X&~Y -> ~BS)
P5.) Every set of truth values, for the defined set of variables, consistent with the above premises, represents a logically possible set of truth values.

Theorems:

T1. [](BE & ~Jw &X -> Y & BS)

Explanation of the above premises:

Premise One simply defines the domain of possible worlds over which we are concerned. X would no doubt include (but not necessarily be limited to) all the facts of which Jill is aware up to the time she contemplates whether or not she will witness to Bob. Premise Two simply states “Necessarily, if Bob is elect, then Bob will be saved,” while Premise Three simple states “Necessarily, if Bob is not elect then Bob will not be saved.” Together these two primses could be interpreted as stating a very strong Calvinist doctrine of election (though there are other interpreations of the doctrine of elecion that might also accomidate them). Premise Four tells us that, given X, it is necessarily the case that if Jill does not witness to Bob and no other means arises by which Bob will be exposed to the Gospel, Bob will not be saved. Premise Five is self explaining. Theorem One (which follows from the above premises), shows that (given X), necessarily, if Jill does not witness to Bob and Bob is elect, then God will indeed use some other means to reach Bob with the Gospel so that Bob will be saved. Thus, God’s soverign plan of election regarding Bob can not possibly be frusterated. by Jill’s witness or lack thereof to Bob

All Possible Sets of Truth Values for the Defined Variables Given the Above Premises:

1. {BE, BS, Jw, X, Y}
2. {BE, BS, Jw, X, ~Y}
3. {BE, BS, ~Jw, X, Y}
4. {~BE, ~BS, Jw, X, Y}
5. {~BE, ~BS, Jw, X, ~Y}
6. {~BE, ~BS, ~Jw, X, Y}
7. {~BE, ~BS, ~Jw, X, ~Y}

Further Simplifying Assumptions:

Each distinct set of truth-values, consistent with the given premises, holds in one and only one possible world. Therefore, in terms of assigning objective probabilities, each distinct set of truth-values receives equal weight.

Objective Probabilities:

P(BS) = 3/7
P(BS/ BE) = 1
P(BS/ ~BE) = 0
P(BS/ Jw) = 1/2
P(BS/ ~Jw) = 1/3
P(~BS/ ~Jw) = 2/3

Conclusions:

The fact that Premise Four is consistent with Premise One through Premise Three demonstrates that Jill’s decision whether or not to witness to Bob is causally relevant to whether or not Bob receives salvation even given a strong doctrine of election. Suppose that Jill decided to witness to Bob, for example, and Bob did in fact get saved. Suppose also that Y did not occur. In hindsight, Bob could say, “All else being equal, if Jill had not shared the Gospel with me, I would not have received salvation.” Premise Four shows that Bob would be correct in that assessment. On the flip side, however, Theorem One shows that God’s election of Bob, if God so ordains, will not be frustrated if Jill decides not to witness to Bob, because if Jill had not decided to witness to Bob, Y would definitely have occurred. However, Bob’s assertion above, when qualified by “all else being equal” is still correct. Thus, it is true both that Jill’s decision to witness to Bob is causally relevant to Bob’s salvation and that God’s election of Bob would not have been frustrated if Jill decided not to witness to Bob.

The following inequalities:

a.) P(BS/ Jw) > P(BS)
b.) P(BS/ Jw) > P(BS/~Jw)
c.) P(~BS/ ~Jw) > P(BS/ ~Jw)

demonstrate that it can be meaningfully held that: a.) Jill’s decision to witness to Bob increases the objective probability that Bob will receive salvation, b.) Jill’s decision to witness to Bob makes Bob’s salvation objectively more likely than it would be if Jill had decided not to witness to Bob, and c.) the objective probability that Bob will not receive salvation given that Jill decides not to witness to Bob is greater than the objective probability that probability that Bob will receive salvation given that Jill decides not to witness to Bob, even given a strong doctrine of election.

Final Summary:

Consequently, the Calvinist may consistently proclaim to the Christian community the urgent need for evangelism by maintaining that our witness or lack thereof can and does have a causal impact on whether or not someone receives salvation, even though God’s purposes of election will stand no matter what we do. The Calvinist may also consistently proclaim that our choice to witness to someone may significantly increase the probability of that person receiving salvation and that our failure to witness may significantly decrease the probability of said person receiving salvation while simultaneously proclaiming that it is certain that no one whom God has elected will be lost. Paradoxical as these truths may be, they are not contradictory.

God Bless,
Kenny

Jaltus
March 21st 2003, 04:29 PM
Kenny, I think you need to read the forum rules here (www.theologyweb.com/forums/decorum).

Specifically, this rule:

The maximum post length is 12K characters. Please keep the points concise. Spanning posts as a work around this rule is forbidden and will only be given exemption to articles or content specific material that exceed the post limit. Responses to other's post are not exempt. Before such posts please note in the first post that it will span multiple posts otherwise you will be requested to remedy this or have it deleted.


However, we think this is a really good topic, so we are going to go ahead and approve it. Considering the number of non-Calvinists on this board, we think you will get quite the response.

I myself, a non-Calvinist, will dig into this post after some others have tackled it.

I will ask that all replies on this thread stay to a single post.

Kenny
March 21st 2003, 04:33 PM
Sorry, I did not mean to break the rules with my first post! I apologize for not reading the rules more carefully.

Pilgrim
March 21st 2003, 05:13 PM
Glad to have you here Kenny. Great topic.

geebob
March 21st 2003, 10:20 PM
I believe the possible implications from calvinism against evangelism may be significant but it usually isn't a very strong objection in my mind as I also consider that there may be legitimate answers to the objection.

I've read the first part of this and intend to look over the rest of it, but it is sure to challenge and stretch anyone who wants to seriously consider this topic in terms of rigorous thinking.

I may already have an objection though in how objective and epistemic probabilities are handled, but I'll reserve that for when I've read the rest of the arguement.

Kenny
March 24th 2003, 01:54 PM
03-21-2003 @ 08:29 PM located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=41868#post41868)
Jaltus: I myself, a non-Calvinist, will dig into this post after some others have tackled it.

Hello Jaltus,

Based on what I’ve read elsewhere on this board, it seems that you hold to a middle knowledge position concerning divine election. I would like to point out that the concerns I address here as well as the manner in which I deal with them would be applicable to many middle knowledge positions on divine election as well. For instance, some who hold to a middle knowledge position hold that God has arranged the world in such a way that everyone who could possibly be saved will be saved. Those, and only those, who wind up d_mned, on this view, suffer from the condition of “transworld d_mnation” – the property of freely rejecting the Gospel in all possible worlds in which the Gospel is proclaimed to them. Now suppose Jill were to hold this middle knowledge viewpoint instead of Calvinist one. Still, all of Jill’s concerns regarding whether or not she should witness to Bob still apply because, on this view, if it is possible for Bob to be saved, then Bob will be saved regardless of whether Jill witnesses to Bob or not because God’s decree insures that all possible worlds where Bob is d_mned fail to be actualized. Thus, an advocate of the middle knowledge view which I described faces precisely the same dilemma that the Calvinist does with respect to the issue of motives for evangelism. Furthermore, I think that the solution turns on exactly the same lines. All the premises of my argument could easily be adapted to fit the middle knowledge position I described.

In Christ,
Kenny

whoa -- I didn't realize that the word "d_mn" would be edited out. I was using it in its legitimate theological sense.

geebob
March 24th 2003, 10:41 PM
would like to point out that the concerns I address here as well as the manner in which I deal with them would be applicable to many middle knowledge positions on divine election as well.

except for the fact that there are some who hold to middle knowledge who don't believe that there are any possible worlds in which some may recieve salvation.

Kenny
March 25th 2003, 01:49 PM
Today @ 02:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44109#post44109)
geebob: except for the fact that there are some who hold to middle knowledge who don't believe that there are any possible worlds in which some may recieve salvation.

Right, that would be those who suffer from “transworld d_mnation.” But, at least according to some middle knowledge views, God has arranged the world so that all those who can be saved will be saved.

Now, suppose Jill holds this middle knowledge position rather than a Calvinist one. What are the implications for evangelism? Well, Jill might still think to herself: “If it is possible for Bob to be saved then Bob will be saved no matter what I do (because God will insure that Bob is saved) and if it is not possible for Bob to be saved than nothing I do matters either.” My model could be adapted to show that this middle knowledge position is consistent with a motive for evangelism based in a desire to have a genuine causal impact on whether or not someone receives salvation and one that seeks to raise the probability that a person will receive salvation as well.

Let’s assume that it is possible for Bob to be saved. In fact, in terms of adapting my model, we can include this assumption in my ‘X’ term. Even though God’s decree insures that Bob will be saved, on this middle knowledge view, it is not necessarily the case that Bob will be saved. This is true for two reasons. First, God’s choice to elect all people whom he foreknows will freely respond to the Gospel under some circumstances is a free act of grace on God’s part. Thus, God could have chosen otherwise and so there are still possible worlds where such persons are not elect. Second, the means by which such persons are exposed to the Gospel and brought to salvation will themselves be contingent. God’s decree may insure that such circumstances do come about, but there are still possible worlds where such circumstances fail to come about.

Thus, in Bob’s case, it is still meaningful to say that there are possible worlds in which Bob is not elect and will not be saved even if we have adopted the position that God has elected all who could possibly be saved. It is also meaningful to say that if the right contingent circumstances do not come about (such as either Jill’s witnessing to Bob or Y), then Bob will not be saved, even though God’s decree may insure that the right contingent circumstances do come about. Thus all the premises in the model I constructed from a Calvinist perspective could be adapted to fit this middle knowledge perspective.

That being said, I'm a Calvinist, not a Molinist and so I am not too interested in defending the latter view.

God Bless,
Kenny

Kenny
April 6th 2003, 10:09 AM
bump...

Are there no more comments on this?

geebob
April 6th 2003, 08:39 PM
4.) Objective and Epistemic Probabilities: Epistemic probabilities concern themselves with how much warrant a proposition (such as “Bob will receive salvation”) has on the background information of which one is aware. Objective probabilities concern themselves with the ratio of possible worlds, given certain restrictions, in which a proposition is true compared to the number of worlds in which it is false. Sometimes these probabilities are closely related to one another and sometimes they radically diverge, depending on the circumstances.

I'm not sure that your distinction of epistemic and objective probabilities holds in the way necessary for your discussion and furthermore, I don't see how possible worlds can reflect probability.

by the determinist account, (and arguably the molinist account) the actual world is a partcular possible world which does not have real access to possibilities of other possible worlds that are not features of the actual world.

In light of this, what possible world you are in dictates what will happen in the future. So Jill may percieve that there are various possible worlds where she witnesses or doesn't and bob accepts or rejects the gospel. So for for all she knows, she could be in any one of these possible worlds, thus the possibility that any of these alternatives could happen is an epistemic one. What she does does not decrease or increase any real chance that something will happen in the actual world or won't happen in the actual world because the chance that anything happens in the actual world that does happen in the actual world is 100 percent.

With regard to the failure for possible worlds to reflect real world probabilities, suppose there is an 88 percent chance that bob will recieve salvation and a 12 percent chance that he won't. This does not mean that for every 12 possible worlds where he rejects, there are 88 where he accepts. A possible world is merely a description of the way that the world could be or could have been and there are as many possible worlds as there are descriptions and consistent combinations of descriptions and it is not the case that every possible world has an equal chance to become the actual world.

a more likely way to represent a probability that something will occur in the actual world, if more than one future of the various possible worlds are in fact accessable, would be to suggest that if we cloned the actual world a hundred times, 88 of those worlds would turn out be ones in which bob accepted and 12 of them would be ones in which he didn't. all of these worlds of course would be identicle accept with regard to whether he accepted or rejected. This would be overblown in possible worlds ontology as two different descriptions need only two different worlds.

Kenny
April 13th 2003, 10:07 PM
Hi geebob,

Thank you for your comments. I apologize that it took me so long to respond.


04-07-2003 @ 01:39 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=56848#post56848)
geebob:

[quote]I'm not sure that your distinction of epistemic and objective probabilities holds in the way necessary for your discussion and furthermore, I don't see how possible worlds can reflect probability.

by the determinist account, (and arguably the molinist account) the actual world is a partcular possible world which does not have real access to possibilities of other possible worlds that are not features of the actual world.

In light of this, what possible world you are in dictates what will happen in the future. So Jill may percieve that there are various possible worlds where she witnesses or doesn't and bob accepts or rejects the gospel. So for for all she knows, she could be in any one of these possible worlds, thus the possibility that any of these alternatives could happen is an epistemic one. What she does does not decrease or increase any real chance that something will happen in the actual world or won't happen in the actual world because the chance that anything happens in the actual world that does happen in the actual world is 100 percent.

There are two issues here. First off, just having epistemic probabilities isn’t so bad. Given that epistemic probabilities are sufficient to motivate action (we still count playing cards even after the deck has been shuffled and dealt), and the issue here is about motivation for evangelism, if all my argument establishes is that there are meaningful senses in which witnessing to someone conceivably increases the epistemic probability that that one will receive salvation, I would consider the argument successful.

Second, it seems rather doubtful to me that objective probabilities fail to be meaningful in a deterministic world. I think this is most clearly brought out when we consider cases were there are deterministic processes occurring but where epistemic probability still seems to diverge from some other sort of “actual” probability. Suppose, for instance, that a quarter has been tossed in the air and I am standing there anticipating whether or not it will land on heads when it falls to the ground. Suppose also that at the point in time I am watching, the rate of rotation of the coin, its trajectory, and other environmental factors have completely determined what the outcome will be. Based on adequate past experience of quarter tosses, I correctly assign an epistemic probability of .5 to the coin’s landing on heads. So for, so good. Now, suppose that the coin is actually biased in favor of landing on heads seventy percent of the time. I would argue that my (albeit correct) assignment of a .5 epistemic probability to the coins landing on heads fails to reflect the “actual” probability that it will land on heads and that this probability is equal to .7. In other words, another form of probability, in addition to epistemic probability, meaningfully describes this situation and I would argue that this form of probability is what I have described as “objective probability.” I would say that, though the outcome of the coin toss may be determined at a particular moment by the particular conditions in the actual world, there are still a number of “surrounding” or “nearby" possible worlds in the logic space which are nearly identical to the actual world at the moment under discussion, but differ from it in minor ways such that the outcome of the coin toss differs in some of these worlds than from the outcome in the actual world. I would say that the assignment of an objective probability of .7 to the coin’s landing on heads reflects the fact that in .7 of the surrounding relevantly nearby possible worlds, the coin lands on heads while in the other .3 of them it lands on tails.


With regard to the failure for possible worlds to reflect real world probabilities, suppose there is an 88 percent chance that bob will recieve salvation and a 12 percent chance that he won't. This does not mean that for every 12 possible worlds where he rejects, there are 88 where he accepts.

I would say (given the qualification that such worlds are “relevantly nearby”) that it could very well mean that (provided that it is objective probabilities which are being spoken of and not epistemic probabilities) as in my example of the coin toss above.


A possible world is merely a description of the way that the world could be or could have been and there are as many possible worlds as there are descriptions and consistent combinations of descriptions…

Agreed, and objective probabilities reflect the fact that certain subsets of consistent combinations of descriptions occur more frequently than others given that certain other subsets of consistent combinations descriptions obtain.


and it is not the case that every possible world has an equal chance to become the actual world.

I’m not sure what to make of this phrase. What sort of notion of probability is being referred to here?


a more likely way to represent a probability that something will occur in the actual world, if more than one future of the various possible worlds are in fact accessable, would be to suggest that if we cloned the actual world a hundred times, 88 of those worlds would turn out be ones in which bob accepted and 12 of them would be ones in which he didn't. all of these worlds of course would be identicle accept with regard to whether he accepted or rejected. This would be overblown in possible worlds ontology as two different descriptions need only two different worlds.

I would say that if the objective probability that Bob will receive salvation is .88, then out of a hundred relevantly similar sets of descriptions, there are 88 of the which are consistent with the proposition that Bob will receive salvation and twelve of the which are inconsistent with that proposition. Each of these worlds would differ from one another in certain details, but would also share enough features in common to make them relevantly “close by” in the logic space. Given that I don’t believe in metaphysical indeterminacy, I don’t think it is possible to replicate the same world exactly and wind up with different results.

God Bless,
Kenny

onceuponapriori
May 6th 2003, 12:10 PM
For a Molinist solution to this issue, see: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/peter.html .

The crux of the article is that if Jill would go to witness to Jack, God would be sure to place Jack in that situation, but if Jill would not go to witness to Jack, God would either refrain from placing someone in Jack's position, or would place someone in Jack's position who suffers from transworld damnation.

Bear in mind, God would have 'planned' around this just 'prior' to the creation event; he is not popping Jacks and non-Jacks in and out of existence as Jill deliberates.

seer
May 6th 2003, 05:52 PM
It's much more simple Kenny. Here is why Paul preached:

1 Cornithians 9:16,17

"For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. "

And as a good Arminian I agree with Paul....

Kenny
May 6th 2003, 06:26 PM
As a Calvinist, I also agree with Paul. In fact, in my set up, so did Jill. Christ has commanded us to preach the Gospel, entrusted us with a stewardship. As I had Jill note, such a motivation ought to be sufficient. But, human beings are often weak and frail aren’t they? They often need more than one motivation to do what they know is right.

In Christ,
Kenny

Kenny
December 22nd 2003, 01:54 AM
whoops, I posted in the wrong window :doh:

Oh well, since this thread is now being discussed again, maybe it's a good thing I bumped it by accident.