Church Planting

[AcousticJS]

Hi everyone

I was just wondering about different people's perspectives on church planting. Is it biblical? Who should do it? Was it a big concern of the early church, or is it purely a 21st Century obsession?

Blessings in Christ
Jon

[Franklin N]

Well if Church Planting isn't important then why did Christ admonish his deciples to preach the gospel unto all living creatures.
If Church planting isn't important then why did Paul spend so much time planting churches.
If planting isn't important then why do we have such biblical says as "What ye shall sow, so shall ye reap."
And if Church Planting isn't important then why is thwe christian faith now spread to every portion of the globe.
Yes Church Planting is important. Get Real!

[James Peter]

Generally of course it is a good thing but there are times when it can be questionable. Is planting a church where there are already many others a good use of resources? Or should we spend our efforts supporting the churches that are already in an area? Paul, almost exclusively, planted churches where there were none. In such a situation always plant. If there are solid churches in an area though then it is better, in my opinion, to support them than to plant a church just because there is not one of your denomination in the area. I'll waive that objection only if the team doing the planting do not take people from other churches but instead evangelise and build an entirely new church - in such a case its good.

So generally, church planting is good but be careful of the motives and consider if the resources are better spent supporting an existing church.

(Unless of course you have direct, prophetic, instruction in which case it goes without saying you obey God not general advice)

[Thoughtful Monk]

Hi everyone

I was just wondering about different people's perspectives on church planting. Is it biblical? Who should do it? Was it a big concern of the early church, or is it purely a 21st Century obsession?

Blessings in Christ
Jon

I think its a 21st century obession. Jesus called on us to make disciples of the nations. I believe if we concentrate on making disciples, any new churches will follow. We got it backwards - we think building a church will make new disciples.

To answer your other question: I do believe it is Biblical to do. Anyone who has the calling of God to plant churches should do it. Planting churches is like pastors - we have too many of both and the quality of what we have is decreasing.

[TrinityKicker]

I agree with Monk.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I think its a 21st century obession. Jesus called on us to make disciples of the nations. I believe if we concentrate on making disciples, any new churches will follow. We got it backwards - we think building a church will make new disciples.

To answer your other question: I do believe it is Biblical to do. Anyone who has the calling of God to plant churches should do it. Planting churches is like pastors - we have too many of both and the quality of what we have is decreasing.

I need a do over on my last paragraph. I was rushed and I didn't say it as clearly as I wanted.

Church planting is Biblical and those who are called to do it should. Certainly there are many places in the world that could use a church. However, especially in the USA, too many people are planting churches to please their own egos. There are too many people in the pulpit for their own egos and not because they are called by God. I have met more pastors that I feel have no business being in the pulpit than people not in the pulpit who I feel should be there. I think there needs to be and will be a shakeout of pastors before the USA will be something resembling a Christian nation. Just wait until the presecution of the church comes.

[George Blaisdell]

I think there needs to be and will be a shakeout of pastors before the USA will be something resembling a Christian nation.
That battle, my brother, is already lost... We started out a Christian nation, and are now a secular nation, with Christian voters now only less than half the vote... In order to get to 50%+, they had to count Jehova Witnesses, in the last census...

I suspect the arrival of persecutions as well... We have a liberal-secular state, and it will come by way of the "euual opportunity" laws... And in Orthodoxy, this will translate into a requirement that "qualified" practicing homosexuals be given communion and be made clergy, and that women as well the same...

The good news of this, of course, is that the Orthodox clergy that refuse to comply with this edict, and that is all of them, and of those the ones that are prosecuted and end up in prisons across America, will spread the Gospel to the imprisoned at an astonishing rate, far beyond the prison outreach programs we are now doing...

Glory to God in All Things!

Arsenios

[Franklin N]

[COLOR=Sienna]
I know it isn't overly wise to just plant churches indesriminatly. There has to be a true need. I have just moved from a town in Ontario that was church poor. Now I must admite that those churches were all well attended except for one. The community is very congegational and the churches from the far left to the far right are all well attended. However I have now moved to the middle of the North Thompson Valley in the British Columbia interior. Whole different story! The place I am in "AVOLA" had a church that had fallen into un-use and had decayed to the point that it needed to be destroyed. No sevice has been held in this community for many many years. The next nearest church is an anglican one in Birch Island. It sits on a flood plain along the North Thompson and had some ice damage last year. Unfortunately the congrgation there is small and aging and is unable to continue. That church has just been closed.

Ministry is not my vocation but it is my avocation. I preach because I am called to preach and I preach only for that reason. Do I think that Church Planting is important here? You Betcha!!! Can I successfully plant a church here in Avola? Only God knows that answer. But what has he done about it so far?

Well he destroyed my life in Ontario. He made me aware of a friend here in this place who needed my help in other things. He guided me to a community with no church from a community with too many churches. He gave me a building in the form of a closed one room school for free. He gave me a free place to stay with only a few small chores that my friend is unable to do. He gave me plenty of free time to prosletize. And nobody has tarred and feathered me yet and rid me out of town on a rail. So should I keep on trying to plant a church here in Avola. You Betcha!!!

:teeth: :metro:

[AcousticJS]

Haha! I'd forgotten all about this thread!

Thanks for the responses guys - there are some good thoughts there.

I appreciate Thoughtful Monk's thoughts, particularly with regard to those planting to satisfy their own egos. I guess this is a huge danger with any area of Christian ministry!

I would, however, query that making disciples will lead to building churches rather than the other way around. It seems to me from the early chapters of Acts that every person who became a disciple was "added to". What were they added to? The church. Which to my mind suggests that there was an already existing body of people to be added to. I would even be tempted to go so far as to say that you couldn't really say that a disciple has been made until they have committed themselves to the care and teaching of a local church, but maybe that's just my ecclesiology showing!

It's possibly more of a chicken and egg question. You need the church to add disciples to, but you need disciples to plant and build a church. Could these two activities be component parts of the same task, or two sides of the same coin, of the great commission? I've got no answers really, just thinking out loud.

Thank you for your thoughts George. I believe you're right about the immanence of persecution - it's only a matter of time, particularly with the passing of the Incitement to Religious Hatred bill over here in the UK (assuming that has gone/gets through). It could potentially be illegal to affirm that the only way to the Father is through the Son over here. I hope you're right about those persecuted taking the gospel with them to the prisons in the event of persecution too. It'd be great to see the church being built there.

And finally (for this post anyway), Franklin - I hope your planting/pioneering work goes well. I'll try to remember to pray that God gives you wisdom in laying good foundations in the lives of those who make up the new church you are seeking to build. Pioneers aren't generally treated well, but it does mean that you get to share in the fellowship of His sufferings and closer fellowship with Him.

Does anyone else have any thoughts? Does anyone have any experience of or insights into the pragmatics of church planting? How would you start a new church if you felt so called?

God bless
Jon

[George Blaisdell]

Does anyone else have any thoughts? Does anyone have any experience of or insights into the pragmatics of church planting? How would you start a new church if you felt so called?
God bless
Jon
For the Orthodox, the first thing is to get the blessing of the bishop. And for this, to have the priest ask for it. And to make sure that what is being done has oversight and visitation and tons of prayers...

The perhaps most important thing, to my small understanding, is the really awesome responsibility that anyone has who starts a church anywhere... You are responsible for souls... Not only for their education in the faith, for we have many teachers in Christ [and by no means to downplay that at all!], but more than that, as Paul continues to write, we have but few fathers... For to these few persons, like Paul, and Peter, and Thomas, and all the Apostles, is given the grace to birth and nurture into the faith those hungering for God, yet lost in sins... Such people will give an account for each soul in their care to God, and my sponsor into Orthodoxy, a priest-monk, likes to reflect that the road to hell is broad, and paved with the skulls of priests...

And as another priest in Africa wrote, you have to go there to leave your bones in that very soil... You cannot go as a missionary for a few years, and then return to the civilizational safety of the good ol' US of A for a pleasant retirement with your grand-kids... If you want a good read, get a copy of "Apostle to Zaire"... The obstacles are awesome - In Zaire, there is a casual prostitution that is as common as breakfast, and witchcraft issues and possessions and all manner of stuff that is utterly out of the bounds of our western thinking, that must be addressed...

Getting and keeping your own soul in order is crucial, and having a strong and well led calling to DO the work is likewise central... Doing it for ego reasons will try to get into the mix of one's soul, and it is important to have someone spiritually directing YOU, as you spiritually direct others...

And a total committment to giving everything you have, past where your tank runs dry, and you have to rely on God, or die...

So I am saying not to plant churches lightly, but deeply in soil that you will have to prepare, and the way is fraught with obstacles, both natural and human...

Arsenios

[Trout]

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this is a re-run.

I travel across the northern part of the Navajo reservation every day, one thing that struck me the first time I made the trip was the number and variety of churches that had been planted in such a small area. At first I thought - WOW - look at all these churches here promoting Christ among the native people. However upon spending a great deal of time among the Navajo people I realize just what a mistake planting all those churches was. It hasn't spoken the message of Christ clearly at all, it became more like a numbers game, less about truly serving the community. The sheer number of denominations has served only to muddy the water.

In retrospect, the more effective thing to have done would have been to grow one church among the people, with all denominations in attendance.

[George Blaisdell]

I travel across the northern part of the Navajo reservation every day, one thing that struck me the first time I made the trip was the number and variety of churches that had been planted in such a small area. At first I thought - WOW - look at all these churches here promoting Christ among the native people. However upon spending a great deal of time among the Navajo people I realize just what a mistake planting all those churches was. It hasn't spoken the message of Christ clearly at all, it became more like a numbers game, less about truly serving the community. The sheer number of denominations has served only to muddy the water.

In retrospect, the more effective thing to have done would have been to grow one church among the people, with all denominations in attendance.
A little off topic, but I drove north out of Phoenix through Salt Lake City enrout Washington this last July, and drove through Navajo country, and was stunned at the number of Hogans everywhere... New house, TV antenna, swimming pool and a hogan in the back yard... Not that people live in them, perhaps, so much as that they just want to HAVE one there, out back, where they can go, for whatever... Most everything I know of the Navajo's is hearsay via Tony Hillerman, but there seems to be a traditional earth religion going on there that has not been seriously challenged except by technological bells and whistles... And maybe not all that much by those either...

What's your take, Trout?

Arsenios

I would think that for a serious planting effort, one would have to go there, live there, and die there... And in one faith, not a non-denom of lots of opinions all politely contradicting one another... And disciple the Navajos that God provided, and let their lives bear witness to the fruit of the Spirit...
A.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Haha! I'd forgotten all about this thread!

Thanks for the responses guys - there are some good thoughts there.

I appreciate Thoughtful Monk's thoughts, particularly with regard to those planting to satisfy their own egos. I guess this is a huge danger with any area of Christian ministry!

I would, however, query that making disciples will lead to building churches rather than the other way around. It seems to me from the early chapters of Acts that every person who became a disciple was "added to". What were they added to? The church. Which to my mind suggests that there was an already existing body of people to be added to. I would even be tempted to go so far as to say that you couldn't really say that a disciple has been made until they have committed themselves to the care and teaching of a local church, but maybe that's just my ecclesiology showing!

It's possibly more of a chicken and egg question. You need the church to add disciples to, but you need disciples to plant and build a church. Could these two activities be component parts of the same task, or two sides of the same coin, of the great commission? I've got no answers really, just thinking out loud.

<<snipping Jon's responses to others....>>

God bless
Jon

Sorry about the delay, Jon. I just started a new job and finding web time is rather difficult. Happy New Year by the way.

Thanks for your response. The problem with using the word church is there is church the believers and church the building. I also use Church being the body of believers in Christ and church being the collection of people who claim to be believers in Christ. A member of Church may belong to a church, but a church does not necessarily belong to the Church. (Throughly confused yet??)

I agree that in Acts people were being added to the church. However back then it started out as a well defined small group of people with a well defined set of beliefs. As you progress through Acts and the Epistles, notice how quickly arguements arise on what is a church and what does it believe. It is a mircle of God that we have any hope of identifying true doctrine and living it. (Yeah I know, see Holy Spirit.)

Now does (at least in the USA) it is too easy to go off and start your own little group because you don't like or don't agree with any other churches in your area. I live in a major metropolitian area where church listings go on for pages in the phone books. It would be hard to believe that in that listing I could not find at least one church that is a Church trying to follow Jesus. Too many don't want to go seeking but instead take the easy way out and start their own church. (One could make a major digression and start discussing how to discern a false church and when to leave your church but I will resist.)

Don't know what the answer is. I've just come to appreciate how important it is to take care in chosing your church.

Blessings

[Thoughtful Monk]

That battle, my brother, is already lost... We started out a Christian nation, and are now a secular nation, with Christian voters now only less than half the vote... In order to get to 50%+, they had to count Jehova Witnesses, in the last census...

I suspect the arrival of persecutions as well... We have a liberal-secular state, and it will come by way of the "euual opportunity" laws... And in Orthodoxy, this will translate into a requirement that "qualified" practicing homosexuals be given communion and be made clergy, and that women as well the same...

The good news of this, of course, is that the Orthodox clergy that refuse to comply with this edict, and that is all of them, and of those the ones that are prosecuted and end up in prisons across America, will spread the Gospel to the imprisoned at an astonishing rate, far beyond the prison outreach programs we are now doing...

Glory to God in All Things!

Arsenios

I think the persecution will start in 2008 or after when Christians will pay for our uncritical, knee-jerk support of our "Christian" president. If we're lucky, we'll just be ignored and pushed to the sidelines. I suspect the courts will find reasons when Church teachings and other rights conflict, to impose on the church in the name of other rights. I think the court could easily rule that churches have to perform same-sex marriages because of equal rights. I'm trying to enjoy today because the misery is coming.

[George Blaisdell]

I think the persecution will start in 2008 or after when Christians will pay for our uncritical, knee-jerk support of our "Christian" president. If we're lucky, we'll just be ignored and pushed to the sidelines. I suspect the courts will find reasons when Church teachings and other rights conflict, to impose on the church in the name of other rights. I think the court could easily rule that churches have to perform same-sex marriages because of equal rights. I'm trying to enjoy today because the misery is coming.
There will be a separation of the wheat from the tares in those persecutions - But the legality in our 'human rights' culture of the Church's praxis of the faith, the division of roles between men and women, and the rejection of certain behaviors from her Communion, will indeed find the avenue of persecutions. Indeed, even today, we can see the trial balloons arising that seek to smear religion with intolerance, and make of the Church an instrument of intolerance.

But the good news is that those very persecutions will find the wheat, and the martyric and joyful stepping forth of the truely faithful into the line of fire of the persecutions will not be able to be kept hidden. And in it, we just might find the renewal of the Faith in the US... Right now, we are just slipping slowly and certainly into the morass of worldly and secular religion... There is none on the 'Christian Right' that are otherworldy and sacramental... The Orthodox are the only ones in this genre... And my feeling is that they [we] may well find ourselves standing alone, and even alone in the face of the nominal Orthodox who could very well turn away from such intransigence.

Arsenios

[Thoughtful Monk]

There will be a separation of the wheat from the tares in those persecutions - But the legality in our 'human rights' culture of the Church's praxis of the faith, the division of roles between men and women, and the rejection of certain behaviors from her Communion, will indeed find the avenue of persecutions. Indeed, even today, we can see the trial balloons arising that seek to smear religion with intolerance, and make of the Church an instrument of intolerance.

Agree with you on this. While there is a lot of effort to defend "Christian rights", we Christians have become so useless to society that society will have little trouble pushing us to the margins.

But the good news is that those very persecutions will find the wheat, and the martyric and joyful stepping forth of the truely faithful into the line of fire of the persecutions will not be able to be kept hidden. And in it, we just might find the renewal of the Faith in the US...

The Church is generally better and stronger under persecution. I agree with a friend that stated that the worse thing that happened to Christianity was to become legal. Not that it is fun, but I think persecution makes the Church focus more clearly on God and depend on Him.

Right now, we are just slipping slowly and certainly into the morass of worldly and secular religion... There is none on the 'Christian Right' that are otherworldy and sacramental...

If a church can be closed on a Christmas Sunday - celebrating neither the Lord's birth (Christmas) nor His Resurrection (Sunday) - what will they do when real persecution shows up on their doorstep.

The Orthodox are the only ones in this genre... And my feeling is that they [we] may well find ourselves standing alone, and even alone in the face of the nominal Orthodox who could very well turn away from such intransigence.

Arsenios

In this, I think you will be disappointed. I don't believe that being Orthodox makes one anymore faithful than any other Christian group. As a non-Orthodox, I would be glad to be martyred with you.

[George Blaisdell]

In this, I think you will be disappointed. I don't believe that being Orthodox makes one anymore faithful than any other Christian group. As a non-Orthodox, I would be glad to be martyred with you.
I hope you are right. Being Orthodox by name means nothing. But martyric living is discipled in Orthodoxy, so that the faithful, [but not the merely nominal Orthodox], will not even think twice about stepping into the line of fire...

Most western churches do not disciple martyric life-styles...

So what kind of monk are you?

Arsenios

[Thoughtful Monk]

I hope you are right. Being Orthodox by name means nothing. But martyric living is discipled in Orthodoxy, so that the faithful, [but not the merely nominal Orthodox], will not even think twice about stepping into the line of fire...

Most western churches do not disciple martyric life-styles...

So what kind of monk are you?

Arsenios

I agree with you that most western churches do not incorporate suffering into their beliefs and practices. I think when presecution does come a lot of people will fold and many churches will compromise with astonishing rapidity. You can see the groundwork for this being laid already.

I am not actually a monk. I took Thoughtful as a description of my personality and how God teaches me through primarily mediation on the Word. I am not much a man of action. Monk refers more to my solidatary nature. I suppose I could have taken Thoughtful Hermit but it didn't sound as good to me.

Right now, I would list myself as a non-denominational, Protestant but even that label doesn't fit very well.

[George Blaisdell]

I agree with you that most western churches do not incorporate suffering into their beliefs and practices.
Do you think suffering is Biblical?

I think when presecution does come a lot of people will fold and many churches will compromise with astonishing rapidity. You can see the groundwork for this being laid already.
They will roll up like scared rabbits... The only martyric faith in the west today is the Orthodox... you can find small pockets and individuals that are around that are such, but not mainstream... Except the Orthodox, where it IS mainstream...

I am not actually a monk.
I thought you might be one of the Catholic offshoot semi-monks... Like the Carmalites? Or other brotherhoods or sisterhoods that live contemplative lives in the world... Soft souls, these...

I took Thoughtful as a description of my personality and how God teaches me through primarily mediation on the Word.
Lucky you! He teaches ME primarily through my head, all right... Actually, through my skull! So we both are men of the, er... Mind...

I am not much a man of action. Monk refers more to my solitary nature. I suppose I could have taken Thoughtful Hermit but it didn't sound as good to me.
Do you follow a rule of prayers?

Right now, I would list myself as a non-denominational, Protestant but even that label doesn't fit very well.
The corresponding Orthodox label is PRE-Denominational... Our birth was before there WERE denominations... When it was all one faith, given once, for all, to the Apostles... THAT is our faith, defended now for 2000 years...

Nice to meet you...

Arsenios

[furay]

I thought you might be one of the Catholic offshoot semi-monks... Like the Carmalites? Or other brotherhoods or sisterhoods that live contemplative lives in the world... Soft souls, these...
Ouch...

[George Blaisdell]

Ouch...
Ouch?

That was a term of endearment...

Not harsh, not hard, not mean spirited, these souls, but soft, and gentle, and kind... Have you ever talked with one? They are totally sweet...

Arsenios

[furay]

Ouch?

That was a term of endearment...

Not harsh, not hard, not mean spirited, these souls, but soft, and gentle, and kind... Have you ever talked with one? They are totally sweet...

Arsenios
Ah, I misunderstood you. My apologies. :hug:

[Krusader]

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this is a re-run.

I travel across the northern part of the Navajo reservation every day, one thing that struck me the first time I made the trip was the number and variety of churches that had been planted in such a small area. At first I thought - WOW - look at all these churches here promoting Christ among the native people. However upon spending a great deal of time among the Navajo people I realize just what a mistake planting all those churches was. It hasn't spoken the message of Christ clearly at all, it became more like a numbers game, less about truly serving the community. The sheer number of denominations has served only to muddy the water.

In retrospect, the more effective thing to have done would have been to grow one church among the people, with all denominations in attendance.

Amen! Also, note the rise of Native American belief systems - especially here (in the southwest) among the Apaches. The average Apache is more apt to be found dancing at a pow wow than in a Christian Church. We have really missed the boat in our missionary efforts to the Native Americans. As Trout pointed out, perhaps we had too many denominations seeking members, rather than seeking to draw people to Christ.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Do you think suffering is Biblical?

Yes, definiately. I do not believe that the amount of suffering you go through is the measure of how good a Christian you are anymore than any of the other standards like health, wealth, number of Bible verses memorized, number people saved, etc are measures. It is interesting to watch people who can not see into the heart trying to come up with a measure to tell if others are saved or not.

They will roll up like scared rabbits... The only martyric faith in the west today is the Orthodox... you can find small pockets and individuals that are around that are such, but not mainstream... Except the Orthodox, where it IS mainstream...


I thought you might be one of the Catholic offshoot semi-monks... Like the Carmalites? Or other brotherhoods or sisterhoods that live contemplative lives in the world... Soft souls, these...


Lucky you! He teaches ME primarily through my head, all right... Actually, through my skull! So we both are men of the, er... Mind...

I do not have visions of angels with flamings swords - I have visions of angels with flaming 2x4s to whack me on the head when I don't get it. :lol:

I didn't mean to imply it was easy for me. I remember on one issue I had to reflect on it for two years before I understood God's answer. Even now, a month or two is not uncommon.

Do you follow a rule of prayers?

I wish I could. Right now I am the most lax in this area of my spiritual life.

The corresponding Orthodox label is PRE-Denominational... Our birth was before there WERE denominations... When it was all one faith, given once, for all, to the Apostles... THAT is our faith, defended now for 2000 years...

I have learned to cease caring about labels and denominations. If the person is sound, I am glad to fellowship with them no matter what they call themselves. If they are not sound, I don't really care what they call themselves.

Nice to meet you...

Arsenios

I very much enjoy talking with you, too. May God richly bless you always.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this is a re-run.

I travel across the northern part of the Navajo reservation every day, one thing that struck me the first time I made the trip was the number and variety of churches that had been planted in such a small area. At first I thought - WOW - look at all these churches here promoting Christ among the native people. However upon spending a great deal of time among the Navajo people I realize just what a mistake planting all those churches was. It hasn't spoken the message of Christ clearly at all, it became more like a numbers game, less about truly serving the community. The sheer number of denominations has served only to muddy the water.

In retrospect, the more effective thing to have done would have been to grow one church among the people, with all denominations in attendance.

I believe one church (better yet, one fellowship) was Jesus's and the early apostles intentions. As time progressed, too many people started arguing over what did Jesus mean. Also, the circumstances in the world changed and people argued over how Jesus would have responded in these different situations. I suppose it was inevitable that multiple denominations and systems would come into existence. It is sad and a blot on the church that Christ will have fix.

[George Blaisdell]

Yes, definiately. [Suffering is Biblical]
So IF it is Biblical, HOW does it work for our salvation?

It is interesting to watch people who can not see into the heart trying to come up with a measure to tell if others are saved or not.
It is gut-wrenching... But what can they do? They believe in being saved. They believe it happens at a certain point. And they believe that it is a new and permanent gift of God to their soul. And their look-arounds are then directed toward their fellows to see if they are saved too, and the only way to tell is to give a doctrinal examination and see if they are in agreement. I mean, they ask "Are you saved yet?" as if they were asking if you got a new suit...

They do not understand it as the living of a turned-around and repentant life UNTO salvation - They think it is as if they suddenly were given it and now have it as their own, given by God, irrevokable, and THEIRS... For the Orthodox, salvation is a life-long struggle in repentance, through temptations, just as God tempted Abraham... Instant salvation, like instant spirituality, is a by-product of our fast-food and fat culture...

I do not have visions of angels with flamings swords - I have visions of angels with flaming 2x4s to whack me on the head when I don't get it. :lol:
YO-BRO'!!! :cheers:

I didn't mean to imply it was easy for me. I remember on one issue I had to reflect on it for two years before I understood God's answer. Even now, a month or two is not uncommon.
That's Orthodox... And taking five or ten, twenty of fifty, years or so to acquire ONE simple virtue... I have a TON of back burner stews simmering - Some of them 20 years now... Some maybe more that I am unaware of...

I wish I could. Right now I am the most lax in this area of my spiritual life.
A prayer discipline is the biggest antidote I know to the slow subsidence of the great gifts that attend a spiritual awakening... Short of entering the Orthodox faith, mind you... Every morning, upon arising, making the sign of the cross and beginning your wakening day in prayer your prayer rule with God, and the same every night, no matter how tired you are, has great benefit as a permanent feature of one's way of life...

Orthodox prayer rules are available on line... The Episcopalians have their old prayer book that is supposed to be good, and I am sure the Catholics have one too...

I have learned to cease caring about labels and denominations. If the person is sound, I am glad to fellowship with them no matter what they call themselves. If they are not sound, I don't really care what they call themselves.
Can't blame you for that - I was the same way... [Athiest for my first 36 years - wouldn't abide no stinking Christians near me!] But anymore, I just receive whatever God send me with thanksgiving and prayer... That is discipled in Orthodoxy... The world gets very simple in that praxis...


I very much enjoy talking with you, too. May God richly bless you always.
Thank-you too -

Arsenios

[bloodrose]

It's possibly more of a chicken and egg question. You need the church to add disciples to, but you need disciples to plant and build a church. Could these two activities be component parts of the same task, or two sides of the same coin, of the great commission? I've got no answers really, just thinking out loud.

'sigh'

This is why home churches were such a good idea (Where have they gone?) Christians would open up their houses to have Church in them, therefore, in some ways, new Christian that owns a house, new potential Church building, without the millions of dollars in mateials that could better b used in sending missionaries, appointing pastors in churches in Contries that can't afford it, providing food and clothing for the needy, the list goes on...

The Church here in Australia is starting to go to the dogs, Chruch planting for no reason other than ego boosts, doctrines of acceptance without ever mentioning suffering. We've probably got less than 30% of our church population that are actually Christians (though I get the picture that this figure is still a little better than the states)

A concerned believer,

Jeff

[Thoughtful Monk]

So IF it is Biblical, HOW does it work for our salvation?

I'm not sure other than there are passages about completing the sufferings of Christ, suffering for our faith, etc. I don't think it works for our salvation - it works for our sanctification. Probably in part it is to keep us humble and knowing our need for God and His mercies. Part is to teach us self-discipline. I think it is an expected part of the Christian life as we live in this world and with its hatred of us. Unfortuately in the USA, suffering is too abstract or trivialized. (I suffered because I got a flat tire going to ministry at the hospital) Perhaps the worst thing for the Church is to be in a place where it is legal.

It is gut-wrenching... But what can they do? They believe in being saved. They believe it happens at a certain point. And they believe that it is a new and permanent gift of God to their soul. And their look-arounds are then directed toward their fellows to see if they are saved too, and the only way to tell is to give a doctrinal examination and see if they are in agreement. I mean, they ask "Are you saved yet?" as if they were asking if you got a new suit...

They do not understand it as the living of a turned-around and repentant life UNTO salvation - They think it is as if they suddenly were given it and now have it as their own, given by God, irrevokable, and THEIRS... For the Orthodox, salvation is a life-long struggle in repentance, through temptations, just as God tempted Abraham... Instant salvation, like instant spirituality, is a by-product of our fast-food and fat culture...

You say it very well. I always remember in the parable of the seeds, only one group has an emotion tied to it. They are the ones where the seed falls on the rock. They received the word with joy but fall alway when hardship comes. That part of the parable should make a lot of preachers ponder more deeply what they are preaching.


That's Orthodox... And taking five or ten, twenty of fifty, years or so to acquire ONE simple virtue... I have a TON of back burner stews simmering - Some of them 20 years now... Some maybe more that I am unaware of...


A prayer discipline is the biggest antidote I know to the slow subsidence of the great gifts that attend a spiritual awakening... Short of entering the Orthodox faith, mind you... Every morning, upon arising, making the sign of the cross and beginning your wakening day in prayer your prayer rule with God, and the same every night, no matter how tired you are, has great benefit as a permanent feature of one's way of life...

Orthodox prayer rules are available on line... The Episcopalians have their old prayer book that is supposed to be good, and I am sure the Catholics have one too...


Can't blame you for that - I was the same way... [Athiest for my first 36 years - wouldn't abide no stinking Christians near me!] But anymore, I just receive whatever God send me with thanksgiving and prayer... That is discipled in Orthodoxy... The world gets very simple in that praxis...

Arsenios

You have come to faith in a road unfamiliar to me. I was raised in a Christian home with believing parents. During my college years, I actually made it a personal commitment and got serious about following Christ. God used C. S. Lewis and the Missouri Synod Lutheran campus pastor to get me started. Then I had several years under a faithful minister and small group study before that church split. (Classic conservative-liberal and the conservatives lost) Now I find myself without good spiritual guidance and its more of a struggle to be faithful.

Have a blessed day.