Jesus: Who is he? [Archive] - TheologyWeb Campus

n0rstar

March 22nd 2003, 09:27 PM

First I would like to thank everyone whom will read this, and I hope it benefits everyone equaly. The information I will provide is from the Watch Tower Orginization ( http://www.watchtower.org ).

Now, The topics I am goin to discuss are:

Is Jesus realy part of a Trinity?
Does the Ancient Hebrew scriptures support his existence?
What was Jesus' role on earth?
Prayer: Should we pray to Jesus?

These seem to be the most common of threads I see. If you wish to discuss something other then these topics, please start a new thread, or I will not answear them. Please specify the questions to the topic in an orderly fashion, to make it easier on me. If I do not answear right away please be patient, for I have a busy schedule, and would never try to avoid a question.

Is Jesus realy part of a Trinity?

What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?

The New Encyclopoedia Britannica says: "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: "Hear, O Isreal: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4) . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . By the end of the 4th Century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." -- (1976), Micropeadia Vol. X, p. 126.

So as we can see, the Secular history obviously understands there isn't a trinity. But what about the Bible? what does it have to say, and what about that all famous John 1:1. Lets open our bibles and examine.

John 1:1 What is the word?

The word is the Bible, the utterence of Jehovah through Prophets.

Ephesians 6:17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, Gods' word.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 Indeed, that is why we also thank God incessantly, because when you recieved Gods' word, which you heard from us, you accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfuly is, as the word of God, Which is also at work in you believers.

John 1:18 says: "No one has ever seen God." Verse 14 clearly says that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...we have beheld his glory." Also, in verses John1:1,2 say that in the beginning he was "with god." Can one be with someone and at the same time be that person? At John 17:3, Jesus addresses the Father as "The only true God"; so, Jesus as "a god" merely reflects his Father's divine qualities.

Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the majesty in lofty places.

So how did Jesus view himself in comparisen of his father Jehovah? (Mark 10:18; John 17:3)

John 14:28 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am

John 5:17-19 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”_On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.
_Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God

If intreasted on further information on the Trinity, please go to http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm

[B]Does the Ancient Hebrew scriptures support his existence?

This is an important topic, cause all those confessing to the christian faith should know the roots of their Savoiur "Christ" and why he was the Messiah. First lets observ his Birth Date.

Jesus' lineage lays in the first basis for identifying him as the promised messiah. Jehovah had told his servent Abraham that the promised seed whould come from his family. Abrahams son Isaac, Isaac's son Jacob, and Jacobs son Judah each received a similar promise (Genesis 22:18; 26:2-5; 28:12-15; 49:10) The line of the Messiahs descent was narrowed down centuries later when King David was told that his family line would produce this One. (Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 11:1, 10) The Gospel accounts of Matthew and Luke confirm that Jesus came through that family line (Matthew 1:1-16; Luk 3:23-38) Though Jesus had many bitter enemies, none of them challened his well-publicized line of descent. (Matthew 21:9, 15) CLearly, the, his lineage is beyond question. However, the Jews' family records were destroyed when the Romans sacked jerusalem in 70 C.E. in later times, no one could ever prove a claim to be promised Messiah.

Fulfilled prophecy is a second line of evidence, SCores of Hebrew Scriptures prophecies describe various aspects of the Messiah's life course. In the eight century B.C.E., the prohpet Micah fortold that this great ruler would be born in the insignigicant town of Bethlehem. Two towns in Israel were named Bethlehem, but this prophecy specified which one: Bethlehem Ephrathah, where King David had been born. (Micah 5:2) Jesus' parents, Joseph and Mary, lived in Nazareth, some 90miles north of Bethlehem. While Mary was pregnant, however, the Roman ruler Caesar Augustus ordered all the people to register in their home cities. So Joseph had to take his pregnant wife to bethlehem, when Jesus was born.-- Luke 2:1-7

In the sixth Century B.C.E., the prophet Daniel fortold that "Messiah the Leader" would appear 69 "weeks" after the order went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:24,25) Each one of these "weeks" was 7 years long.* According to the bible and secular history, the order to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8) So the Messiah was to appear 483 (69 times 7) years after 455 B.C.E. That brings is to 29 C.E., the very year that Jehovah anointed Jesus with Holy Spirit. jesus thus became "the Christ" (Meaning Annointed One"), or Messiah.--Luke 3:15,16,21,22.

Of course, not everyone accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah, and the Scriptures had fortold this. as recorded at Psalm 2:2, King David was divinely inspired to foretell: "The kings of earth take their stand and high officals themselves have massed together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one."This prophecy suggested that leaders from more that one land would unite in order to attack Jehovahs' Anointed One, or Messiah. And so it was. The Jewish religious leaders, King Herod, and the Roman governor Pontius Pilate all played a part in having Jesus put to death. Former enemies Herod and Pilate became fast friends from then on. (Matthew 27:1,2; Luke 23:10-12; Acts 4:25-28) for Further proof that Jesus was Messiah, please see the companying chart entitled "Some Outstanding Messianic Prophecies."

* The ancient Jews commonly thought in terms of weeks of years. For instance, just as every 7th day was a sabbath day, every 7th year was a sabbath year.-- Exodus 20:8-11;23:10,11.

------------------------------------[Some Outstanding Messianic Prophecies]------------------------------------
His early life
Isiah 7:14 - Born of a Virgin - Matthew 1:18-23
Jerimiah 31:15 - Babes killed after his birth - Matthew 2:16-18

His ministry
Isiah 61:1,2 - His commision from God - Luke 4:18-21
Isiah 9:1,2 - Ministry caused people to see great light - Matthew 4:13-16
Psalm 69:9 - Zealous for Jehovahs house - John 2:13-17
Isaiah 53:1 - Not believed in - John 12:37,38
Zechariah 9:9; Psalm 118:26 - Entry into Jerusalem on colt of an ass; hailed as King and as the one coming in Jehovahs name. - Matthew 21:1-9

His Betrayal and Death
Psalm 41:9;109:8 - One apostle unfaithful; betrays Jesus and is later replaced - acts 1:15-20
Zechariah 11:12 - Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matthew 26:14,15
Psalm 27:12 - False witnesses used against him - Matthew 26:59-61
Psalm 22:18 - Lots cast for his garments - John 19:23,24
Isaiah 53:12 - Numbered with sinners - Matthew 27:38
Psalm 22:7,8 - Reviled while dying - Mark 15:29-32
Isiah 53:5; Zechariah 12:10 - Pierced - John 19:34,37
Isaiah 53:9 - Buried with the rich - Matthew 27:57-60
Psalm 16:8-11 - Raised before corruption - Acts 2:25-32;13:34-37
------------------------------------[Some Outstanding Messianic Prophecies]------------------------------------
Taken from the WatchTower orginizations book Knowledge that leads to everlasting life Chapter 4; pg 34-36

What was Jesus' role on earth?

He simply did his fathers will (John 5:30; John 7:16),

John 8:12 Therefore Jesus Spoke again to them, saying: "I am the light of the world.* He that follows me by no means walk in darkness.# But will possess the light of life.%

* By saying this, he simply means he was the messiah, the repurchaser for our lifes. (Acts 20:28; Galatians 4:4,5; Hebrews 2:9)

# Faith needs to be followed up by works. (James 2:17-26; 1:22-25). But what works? Jesus gave the example, and tought us how to live a Christain life, so as to NOT be led into darkness.
First of which was taken in an Accurate knowledge of the bible. (Matthew 4:11; 1Timothy 2:4; Phippians 1:9; 2Timothy 3:7 )
Second is to be baptized. (Matthew 3:13-17; Acts 10:1-48)
Third is to carry out the work of our Father Jehovah (Matthew 4:17 24:14; Mark 13:10; Luke 4:43)
And of course one should always pray to Jehovah for forgivness, thanks, and for what we need (not what we want) in Jesus' name (1John 5:14,15; John 14:6,13,14; 2Corintians 1:20)
so it is safe to say anyone walking in his path will not walk in darkness, or purposely commit sins.

% And if you have exercised faith that jesus did die for our sins, and you did Jehovahs will, your gift will be eternal life on a paradise earth, (titus 1:2; John 10:27,28; John 11:25,26) or for the annointed, heaven. (Revelations 14:1,4; 7:2-4; 5:9,10)

Prayer: Should we pray to Jesus?

Should You Pray to Jesus?

SOME people consider it proper to pray to Jesus. In Germany many have been taught as children that before their meals they should fold their hands and thank Jesus Christ.

According to the Bible, Jesus indeed occupies a very high position in heaven. Does that, however, mean that we should pray to him? You may be among those who, out of love for Jesus, direct prayers to him, but what does Jesus himself think about such prayers?

First, why do these questions even arise? Because the Bible says that Jehovah God is the “Hearer of prayer.” It is hardly surprising, then, that servants of God in ancient times, such as the Israelites, prayed only to Jehovah God, the Almighty.—Psalm 5:1,_2; 65:2.

Did things change when Jesus, the Son of God, came to earth to deliver mankind from sin and death? No, prayers were still directed to Jehovah. When on earth Jesus himself prayed frequently to his heavenly Father, and he taught others to do likewise. Just think of the model prayer, sometimes called the Lord’s Prayer or the Our Father, which is one of the best-known prayers in the world. Jesus did not teach us to pray to him; he gave us this model: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.”—Matthew 6:6,_9; 26:39,_42.

Do the words “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend” mean that we are to pray to him? No. The Greek phrase here involved “denotes the name upon which those that bow the knee unite, on which united all worship. The name which Jesus has received moves all to united adoration.” (A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament, by G._B._Winer) Indeed, for a prayer to be acceptable, it must be presented “in the name of Jesus,” but it is, nevertheless, addressed to Jehovah God and serves to his glorification. For this reason, Paul says: “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—Philippians 4:6.

‘But,’ some may ask, ‘does the Bible not report that both the disciple Stephen and the apostle John spoke to Jesus in heaven?’ That is true. These events, however, did not involve prayers, as Stephen and John each saw Jesus in vision and spoke to him directly. (Acts 7:56,_59; Revelation 1:17-19; 22:20) Bear in mind that simply speaking even to God does not in itself constitute a prayer. Adam and Eve spoke to God, offering excuses for their great sin, when He judged them following their sin in Eden. Their talking to him in that way was not a prayer. (Genesis 3:8-19) Hence, it would be incorrect to cite Stephen’s or John’s talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him.

Taken from the 12/15/94 Watchtower Should you pray to jesus?

If you whould like this complete article on "Should you pray to Jesus" please email me and I will send you a copy of it. Thank you for all your time and patience in reading this post. If you have any questions please feel free to post, or email me. Hope you enjoyed this meal.

Sozo

March 22nd 2003, 10:01 PM

n0rstar...

To whom is this verse referring?

Rev 22:13

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

n0rstar

March 22nd 2003, 11:36 PM

Today @ 02:01 AM here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42725#post42725)
Sozo:

n0rstar...

To whom is this verse referring?

Rev 22:13

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Rev 22:13 clearly represents Jehovah

(Isaiah 44:6) “This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

(Revelation 1:8) “I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

(Revelation 21:6) And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.

I appreciate that you take up concern in taken on an accurate knowledge of the scriptures. I hope this can aid you in your quest for understanding. If the scriptures I quoted fails to quench your hunger for the reason behind the scripture, please aid me with more information leading to your conundrum.

Sozo

March 23rd 2003, 12:47 AM

Rev 22:13 clearly represents Jehovah

[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your response!

When did Jehovah die?

Rev 1:8-18

" "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His breast with a golden girdle. And His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire; and His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been caused to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. And in His right hand He held seven stars; and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Dee Dee Warren

March 23rd 2003, 01:00 AM

Hey I also posted a whole article here on Jesus clearly being the Alpha and Omega as well.

And Norstar are you aware that the Watchtower has changed its position on whether or not Jesus should be worshipped?

yxboom

March 23rd 2003, 01:08 AM

You posted the article here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=8618#post8618)

Dee Dee Warren

March 23rd 2003, 01:10 AM

Thank you Boom, I shold have done that... bad me was being lazy.

Sozo

March 23rd 2003, 01:31 AM

n0rstar, one more question...

Is there more than one Saviour?

"...showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;"

n0rstar

March 23rd 2003, 03:50 PM

Today @ 04:47 AM located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42773#post42773)
Sozo:

Rev 22:13 clearly represents Jehovah

Thank you for your response!

When did Jehovah die?

Rev 1:8-18

" "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His breast with a golden girdle. And His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire; and His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been caused to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. And in His right hand He held seven stars; and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. [/QUOTE]

Jehovah did not die, neither will he; if I slightly confused you by using Gods name "Jehovah" please observ psalms 83:18; Exodus 6:3; Isaiah 12:2; 26:4 - in the older King James versions, the name is there, however in teh new king james, the writers left out the divine name altogether. If you look up the name Jehovah in the index, it should read something along the lines of "This name has been translated LORD X amount of times" - For further information on Gods name "Jehovah" please send me an email, and I will respond with the Broucher (That can also be picked up at your local Kingdom Hall)

Now for the question that is troublen you at Revelations 1:8-18.

As you read this out the bible please notice that these were seprate paragraphs, concluding that the once previous thought was concluded.

Revelation 1:8-18 “I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”*

9 I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat´mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus. 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph´e·sus and in Smyr´na and in Per´ga·mum and in Thy·a·ti´ra and in Sar´dis and in Philadelphia and in La·o·di·ce´a.”

12 And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle.% 14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes as a fiery flame; 15 and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace; and his voice was as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was as the sun when it shines in its power. 17 And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.

And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des. #

*This is the first of three times in Revelation that Jehovah himself speaks from heaven. (See also Revelation 21:5-8; 22:12-15.) First-century Christians would quickly have recognized alpha and omega as the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Jehovah’s calling himself by those two letters stresses that before him, there was no almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion, for all eternity, the issue of Godship. He will be forever vindicated as the one and only almighty God, Supreme Sovereign over all of his creation.—Compare Isaiah 46:10; 55:10, 11. (Revelations Climax; Chapter 4, p 20 - published by the watchtower society)

% 9 John turns at the sound of the loud voice, and here is what he sees: “I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands.” (Revelation 1:12) Later, John learns what these seven lampstands symbolize. But it is the person in the midst of the lampstands that catches his eye. There was “in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle.” (Revelation 1:13) Jesus, the “son of man,” here presents himself before the awestruck witness, John, as a magnificent, glowing figure. He appears in brilliant glory among flaming golden lampstands. This templelike setting impresses on John the fact that Jesus is present in the role of Jehovah’s great High Priest, with judgment powers. (Hebrews 4:14; 7:21-25) His long, impressive garment conforms to his priestly office. Like the Jewish high priests of old, he wears a girdle—a golden girdle over his breast where it covers his heart. This signifies that he will wholeheartedly carry out his divine commission received from Jehovah God.—Exodus 28:8, 30; Hebrews 8:1, 2. (Revelations Climax; Chapter 5, p 25 - published by the watchtower society)

# Nevertheless, our awe need not give way to morbid fear. Jesus reassured John, as the apostle next relates. “And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’” (Revelation 1:17b, 18a) In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.” When Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.

Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes “the living one . . . living forever and ever.” He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called “the living God.” (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2) For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: “I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” (Revelation 1:18b) Jehovah has given him the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades (gravedom).—Compare Matthew 16:18.

Jesus here repeats his command to record the vision, telling John: “Write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these.” (Revelation 1:19) What exciting things will John yet make known for our instruction? (Revelations Climax; Chapter 6, p 27-28 - published by the watchtower society)

Today @ 05:00 AM located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42779#post42779)
Dee Dee Warren:

Hey I also posted a whole article here on Jesus clearly being the Alpha and Omega as well.

And Norstar are you aware that the Watchtower has changed its position on whether or not Jesus should be worshipped?

I am aware that Jehovahs Witness's has changed their views on subjects. One of which is smoken. In the 2/15/1950 Watch Tower, they addressed this issue "Why Christians Shun Tabacco" I am sure that they disapproved of Brothers and Sisters in the congregation smoken prior to this article, what I do know is Brothers and Sisters were given 3 months to quit their habit, and after that there would be grounds for counselling.

I am however unsure as their change of view on how Whorship, and the Christ was concerned. I can ask my bible teacher when he comes monday, hes in his 70's I beleave, and he was born and raised in the truth, so he has a much broader knowledge on this then I do.

If you can offer up an article of some sort, reguarding your comment, please supply me, you have my email. I would be delighted in reading it.

In conclusion though, I am well aware that Jehovhas Witness's has made changes. I found this snippet.

Why have there been changes over the years in the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

The Bible shows that Jehovah enables his servants to understand his purpose in a progressive manner. (Prov. 4:18; John 16:12) Thus, the prophets who were divinely inspired to write portions of the Bible did not understand the meaning of everything that they wrote. (Dan. 12:8,_9; 1_Pet. 1:10-12) The apostles of Jesus Christ realized that there was much they did not understand in their time. (Acts 1:6,_7; 1_Cor. 13:9-12) The Bible shows that there would be a great increase in knowledge of the truth during “the time of the end.” (Dan. 12:4) Increased knowledge often requires adjustments in one’s thinking. Jehovah’s Witnesses are willing humbly to make such adjustments. -- (1989) Reasoning from the Scriptures; p. 205; published by the Watch Tower Orginization

n0rstar

March 23rd 2003, 05:08 PM

Today @ 05:31 AM located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42799#post42799)
Sozo:

n0rstar, one more question...

Is there more than one Saviour?

"...showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;"

no, there is 1 saviour Jesus Christ, and 1 God, whom sent him forth Jehovah

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ

Thousands of times throughout the Bible, God is spoken of as one person. When he speaks, it is as one undivided individual. The Bible could not be any clearer on this. As God states: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory.” (Isaiah 42:8) “I am Yahweh your God . . . You shall have no gods except me.” (Italics ours.)—Exodus 20:2,_3, JB.

Those words are found at Deuteronomy 6:4. The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) here reads: “Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh.” In the grammar of that verse, the word “one” has no plural modifiers to suggest that it means anything but one individual. -- (1989) Trinity Brochure; p. 13; published by the WatchTower Orginization

Dee Dee Warren

March 23rd 2003, 07:58 PM

Hey there, my Alpha and Omega article refuted the arguments you presented above entirely. I am sorry my friend, but there is no way around this titles of Deity claimed by Christ in Revelation. If you would like to take that one line by line slowly, let me know. I will try and find that article I referred to before. I have no problem with progressive revelation in theory, but it does not work with the changes the Watchtower has made. Additioanlly, Jude told us that the faith was once for all delivered to the saints, so there can be no fundamental changes such as the sort of whether or not Jesus should be worshipped. Remember that the Watchtower claims to be a prophet of God. A prophet forthtells the truth, and cannot contradict itself.

Woman

March 23rd 2003, 09:19 PM

No comment - I'm not enough of a Biblical scholar.

Hey Dee Dee,

I want to start a thread on the nature of God. Which forum should I use?

n0rstar

March 24th 2003, 10:48 PM

03-23-2003 @ 11:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=43178#post43178)
Dee Dee Warren:
Remember that the Watchtower claims to be a prophet of God. A prophet forthtells the truth, and cannot contradict itself.

no? - to my knowledge the Watch Tower Orginization does not claim to be a prophet of Jehovah, but rather a slave of Jehovah. If you have something refuting this, please post an article link. NOt once have I seen the Watch Tower orginization refer to themselfes as Prophets, in any articles or publications.

Dee Dee Warren

March 24th 2003, 10:50 PM

I will find it for you. Here is the article on the about face they did on whether or not Jesus should be worhsipped.

http://www.equip.org/free/DJ922.htm

That is a BIGGIE to be wrong about, don't you think?

n0rstar

March 25th 2003, 08:12 PM

Yesterday @ 02:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44129#post44129)
Dee Dee Warren:

I will find it for you. Here is the article on the about face they did on whether or not Jesus should be worhsipped.

http://www.equip.org/free/DJ922.htm

That is a BIGGIE to be wrong about, don't you think?

thank you for pointen this article out to me, it was VERY informational. At my next Bible study I will be sure to raise some questions. To my knowledge though, one should not worship Jesus (Mat 4:10) Though I will look into this abit more, cause this could very well change my outlook on the Jehovah Witness orginization.

I am not prideful, I don't have to be right, I am just after the same thing so many others are after.

The Truth.

Dee Dee Warren

March 25th 2003, 09:40 PM

Dear n0rstar:

Thank you so much for your candor and humble spirit. I look forward to speaking with you more.

Bill the Cat

March 26th 2003, 02:35 PM

Hey Norstar,
The J.W. also did an about face on the cross vs. stake deal. Many years ago, Judge Rutherford wrote a book, and one of the only pictures in it has Jesus on a cross. Now J.W.'s believe Jesus was tied to a stake.

n0rstar

March 26th 2003, 02:40 PM

yes, I was aware of the cross vs stake issue. none the less, I don't think that has much if anything to do with my being saved, and haveing everlasting life, weather he was impailed on a stake or a cross. From my historical knowledge I would bet on it bein a cross given the time he was persecuted, but it also wasn't uncommon for people to be impailed to wooden stakes or trees.

Bill the Cat

March 26th 2003, 02:43 PM

Just for posterity's sake:
http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/jw/jrharp.htm

I disagree with just about everything else on their site, but the scanned pics are hard to deny.

Bill the Cat

March 26th 2003, 02:45 PM

Well, misrepresenting how Jesus died was kind of important. Jesus prophecied thet He would be crucified to a cross, hence the take up your cross statement. If He was impailed on a stake, Jesus prophecied wrong and the take up your cross comment was in vain.

Dee Dee Warren

March 26th 2003, 02:58 PM

Dear N0rstar:

I have not forgotten that I am trying to find you the cite for where the Watchtower has claimed to be God's Prophet. Remember that a prophet is always right.

n0rstar

March 26th 2003, 03:03 PM

http://www.foreignword.com/Tools/dictsrch_aff.asp?menu=N&query=stauros&src=CQ&go=Translate&trg=BP

this is the translation of the word [stau·ros] which was referred to as a stake in the "New World Translation" , Definition 1 refers to it as an upright stake. while definition 2 refers to it as a cross.

once again, I am fairly sure it doesn't matter what the object was that Jesus gave his life on, but its the fact that you acknowledge what he had done.

n0rstar

March 26th 2003, 03:06 PM

Today @ 01:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45461#post45461)
Bill the Cat:

Well, misrepresenting how Jesus died was kind of important. Jesus prophecied thet He would be crucified to a cross, hence the take up your cross statement. If He was impailed on a stake, Jesus prophecied wrong and the take up your cross comment was in vain.

I beleave you are referring to (Matthew 10:38; 16:24) and in both cases it was the word [stau·ros] and once again as the definition for sees, it can be viewed as either or.

*Edit* The Watch Tower Orginization has a Bilinguil Greek Scriptures portion of the bible. as you read it you first see the translation, and then the greek right beside it, and throughout the "New World Translation" bible all the words marked with [ ] represents it was added, cause like tryen to directly translate Spanish to English, it would not sound right.

Dee Dee Warren

March 26th 2003, 03:23 PM

Dera N0rstar:

In isolation I would agree with you that whether it was a stake or a cross is not that big of deal in the larger schemes. What is the issue is how authoratively dogmatic the Watchtower has been on this issue, and their about-face on it. If that is all there was, really, then no big deal. But I know you understand the dreadful importance of the issue of whether or not Jesus should be worshipped. The link that I gave you referenced some actual WT documents, and my original article at home has scans of those documents. If you would like me to scan them and email them to you, I would be happy to do so.

n0rstar

March 26th 2003, 07:19 PM

Thank you for the offer, however the article I read the other night was more then enough information to arrouse my concern on the "Should we worship Jesus" issue. I am goin to start a thread in a forum for the debate of this topic after I speak with my bible assistent. I have reputed Jehovahs Witness's before, and they have always been right, and has always been able to show me evidence supporting their claims, which is the very reason I chose them as my religion.

I do not, however, expect any religion to be exact, after all we are all merley human. What I admire about the orginization is the conduct of the members, both at an away from the Kingdom Hall, their ability to sit down and teach someone who knows "0" about the bible, and steadly increase their knowledge by leaps and folds. I also admire when they do stake a claim, they have a scripture to support it. I do not down size other peoples beliefs, cause I feel thats their freedom of choice, I will however defend the claims of my choosen religion, and when I do, I always post as many bible quotes as I can, being as forthcoming as possible.

So in defense of the orginization and their 180 on worshipping Jesus, We still do and highly beleive Jesus Is Worthy of Obeisance greatly as he was when he was on earth (John 5:23; Heb 1:2-4; Phil 2:10,11) However, as we veiw such scriptures as Matthew 4:10, where he spoke to Satan, and in the case when he was speaking to the Samaritan woman (John 4:23,24).

Like I said earlier though, after I discuss this with my bible assistent, I will make a debate thread about this topic. If I find that worshiping Jesus is scriptualy sound, then I will have no other means then to be forced to arouse more questions, and possibly retract my veiw of the Society. But like I said, all religions have faults somewhere, and as long as we live, we will find them, I am glad though that the Society is willing to make the changes, as the scriptures say, we don't know it all, and the more we study, the greater our knoweldge will get, then we should act on what we know. (Prov. 4:18; John 16:12; Acts 1:6,_7; 1_Cor. 13:9-12; Dan. 12:8,_9; 1_Pet. 1:10-12)

vlandsponger

March 27th 2003, 05:34 AM

The Trinity?

When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."
Luke 3:22-22

-------
you should check this site for info on the trinity:
http://www.carm.net/doctrine.htm
-------

The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet related in essence. Each is divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the Godhead. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three persons individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

taken from: http://www.carm.net/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm

bar Jonah

March 27th 2003, 06:07 AM

It's interesting to me that, for the third time in one day, I find myself giving this bit of information here at TW. :smile:

n0rstar, you seem to believe that Jesus is not YHWH. However, if you check Jeremiah 23:5-6, this is unarguably a messianic prophecy. (Ask any Jewish scholar, and he'll agree.) And this passage tells us the name of the messiah. That name?

It's translated as "LORD" in English. What's the Hebrew? YHWH. The messiah is YHWH.

You, yourself, quoted Exodus 20:2-3

“I am Yahweh your God . . . You shall have no gods except me.”

Reasonable

March 27th 2003, 09:49 AM

Today @ 10:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46018#post46018)
RightIdea:

"n0rstar, you seem to believe that Jesus is not YHWH. However, if you check Jeremiah 23:5-6, this is unarguably a messianic prophecy. (Ask any Jewish scholar, and he'll agree.) And this passage tells us the name of the messiah. That name?

It's translated as "LORD" in English. What's the Hebrew? YHWH. The messiah is YHWH."

It's arguments like these that only hurt the Trinitarian position. With so many powerful arguments for the Trinity, why post some bogus argument like this? That very same title, "YHWH is our righteousness", is also given to the city of Jerusalem! (Jer 33:14-16) So is that city also our Creator?

It's no wonder unitarians have a hard time giving credit to the arguments. They see loop holes in so many bogus arguments that they don't bother giving serious consideration to the good ones.

"You, yourself, quoted Exodus 20:2-3

“I am Yahweh your God . . . You shall have no gods except me.” "

There, now that one is much better

:thumb:

bar Jonah

March 27th 2003, 03:16 PM

Today @ 06:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46074#post46074)
Reasonable:

It's arguments like these that only hurt the Trinitarian position. With so many powerful arguments for the Trinity, why post some bogus argument like this? That very same title, "YHWH is our righteousness", is also given to the city of Jerusalem! (Jer 33:14-16) So is that city also our Creator?

It's no wonder unitarians have a hard time giving credit to the arguments. They see loop holes in so many bogus arguments that they don't bother giving serious consideration to the good ones.

There, now that one is much better

:thumb:
Wow, are you way off.

In Jeremiah 23:6, we see the name of the messiah -- YHWH tsedeq. YHWH our righteousness. It specifically gives the four-letter, unspeakable name of God -- "YHWH."

The name "Jerusalem" is composed of two Hebrew words -- "yarah" and "shalam" -- essentially meaning "founded peacefully."

Etymologically, the two have NOTHING to do with each other. No shared words or word roots at all. How can you possibly claim that the nature of the name "Jerusalem" proves that Jeremiah 23:6 doesn't really give us the name of the mashiach? Such as claim is drastically uninformed, utterly baseless.

Reasonable

March 27th 2003, 04:51 PM

Today @ 07:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46244#post46244)
RightIdea:

Wow, are you way off.

In Jeremiah 23:6, we see the name of the messiah -- YHWH tsedeq. YHWH our righteousness. It specifically gives the four-letter, unspeakable name of God -- "YHWH."

The name "Jerusalem" is composed of two Hebrew words -- "yarah" and "shalam" -- essentially meaning "founded peacefully."

Etymologically, the two have NOTHING to do with each other. No shared words or word roots at all. How can you possibly claim that the nature of the name "Jerusalem" proves that Jeremiah 23:6 doesn't really give us the name of the mashiach? Such as claim is drastically uninformed, utterly baseless.

Rightidea-I appreciate your reply. I probably did not make myself clear and I apologize for such. My point was this:
1.) The Messiah is given the title "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu", which is translated "Yahweh is our righteousness" at Jer 23:6.

2.) The city of Jerusalem is given the exact same title "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu", which is translated "Yahweh is our righteousness."

You are correct that the word "Jerusalem" does not have the term "YHWH" in it. I never meant to imply that it did. Neither does the word "Messiah". However, both the Messiah and the city of Jerusalem were given the exact same title: "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu".

Thus while they have "no shared words or word roots at all", the one thing they do share is the title "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu." And if calling the Messiah "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu" means he IS YHWH then what does that make the city of Jerusalem? Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that the Messiah is not referred to as YHWH but I don't believe this particular verse can prove it to anyone that is also aware of Jer 33:16.

Rather than answering a unitarian's question, it merely raises more and we have to hope they will accept both answers. First, that calling the Messiah "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu" means he is YHWH and second, that calling Jerusalem "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu" does not mean he is YHWH.

bar Jonah

March 27th 2003, 05:12 PM

Today @ 01:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46308#post46308)
Reasonable:

Rightidea-I appreciate your reply. I probably did not make myself clear and I apologize for such. My point was this:
1.) The Messiah is given the title "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu", which is translated "Yahweh is our righteousness" at Jer 23:6.

2.) The city of Jerusalem is given the exact same title "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu", which is translated "Yahweh is our righteousness."

You are correct that the word "Jerusalem" does not have the term "YHWH" in it. I never meant to imply that it did. Neither does the word "Messiah". However, both the Messiah and the city of Jerusalem were given the exact same title: "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu".

Thus while they have "no shared words or word roots at all", the one thing they do share is the title "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu." And if calling the Messiah "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu" means he IS YHWH then what does that make the city of Jerusalem? Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that the Messiah is not referred to as YHWH but I don't believe this particular verse can prove it to anyone that is also aware of Jer 33:16.

Rather than answering a unitarian's question, it merely raises more and we have to hope they will accept both answers. First, that calling the Messiah "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu" means he is YHWH and second, that calling Jerusalem "Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu" does not mean he is YHWH.
Your reliance on English is showing. :brow:

Look at the Hebrew! You seem to act like you are concerned with the Hebrew, but here you prove you are not! There is no "she" in Jeremiah 33:16. You find that mistakenly translated in English, but look at the passage as a whole. It mirrors Jeremiah 23! And the exact same word is used.

qara

No "he." No "she." It is talking about the Branch of David, the branch of righteousness being raised up. And Judah will be saved, and this is the name by which * will be called -- YHWH Tsidhqe´nu. (Thank you for the correct spelling and form of the latter word; I couldn't find it in my resources, but the point is moot, anyway.)

So, if you look at the Hebrew, and at the *gasp* context... you can see there is no "she" at all. It isn't referring to Jerusalem or Judah or any geographic place. It is referring to the Branch. And the Branch is the mashiach, the messiah. And His name is JHWH.

Btw, do we have any serious Hebrew scholars here? Regarding the precise translation of "YHWH Tsidhqe´nu" in this context, my friend Jeff who works in a Messianic Jewish ministry here in Denver (who moved here from Israel and who reads the Tanakh in Hebrew) tells me the more correct translation is:

"YHWH our righteousness"

and not

"YHWH is our righteousness."

Anyone?

n0rstar

March 27th 2003, 06:40 PM

JEHOVAH IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS

The expression translated from the two words Yehwah´ Tsidh·qe´nu, found at Jeremiah 23:6 and 33:16.

Jeremiah 23:5,_6 is a Messianic prophecy describing the future king sprouting from David’s line to “execute justice and righteousness in the land.” Since he rules as God’s representative (even as David, and others, sat “upon Jehovah’s throne” as God’s anointed king; 1Ch 29:23), the prophecy says, “This is his name with which he will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” There is no basis for claiming, as some have, that this means that Jesus, the Messiah, and Jehovah are the same, forming one God. This can be seen from the fact that the similar Messianic prophecy at Jeremiah 33:14-16 applies the identical expression to Jerusalem, saying: “And this is what she will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” In both cases the expression shows that God’s name, Jehovah, placed both upon his promised king and upon his chosen capital, is a guarantee of their righteousness. Moreover, the justice and righteousness emanating from or expressed by these sources are the product of full devotion to Jehovah and his divine will, bringing Jehovah’s blessing and direction. -- (1988) Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2; p. 21 subheading "JEHOVAH IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS"

Reasonable

March 27th 2003, 06:40 PM

Today @ 09:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46323#post46323)
RightIdea:

Your reliance on English is showing. :brow:

Look at the Hebrew! You seem to act like you are concerned with the Hebrew, but here you prove you are not! There is no "she" in Jeremiah 33:16. You find that mistakenly translated in English, but look at the passage as a whole. It mirrors Jeremiah 23! And the exact same word is used.

qara

No "he." No "she." It is talking about the Branch of David, the branch of righteousness being raised up. And Judah will be saved, and this is the name by which * will be called -- YHWH Tsidhqe´nu. (Thank you for the correct spelling and form of the latter word; I couldn't find it in my resources, but the point is moot, anyway.)

So, if you look at the Hebrew, and at the *gasp* context... you can see there is no "she" at all. It isn't referring to Jerusalem or Judah or any geographic place. It is referring to the Branch. And the Branch is the mashiach, the messiah. And His name is JHWH.

Btw, do we have any serious Hebrew scholars here? Regarding the precise translation of "YHWH Tsidhqe´nu" in this context, my friend Jeff who works in a Messianic Jewish ministry here in Denver (who moved here from Israel and who reads the Tanakh in Hebrew) tells me the more correct translation is:

"YHWH our righteousness"

and not

"YHWH is our righteousness."

Anyone?

You may be right. However, I think it's too subjective to treat it as such a powerful stance for Jesus being YHWH. I think verse 16 can be interpreted either way and often is as many Bible translations show. I don't think you are going to flip that verse out and convince a unitarian you're right. I can see your point and I'm not even thoroughly convinced. It maybe be referring to the subject of verse 15 but it could also being referring to the subject of verse 16. But at any rate, your point has validity.

Along that note, Murray Harris' work "Jesus as God" discusses the name "Immanuel" and argues that this was not meant to lead us to believe Jesus is God. He argues that the title was prophetically saying "God is acting on our behalf in the person of Jesus." I don't know if you care much for Dr. Harris or even know of him but the same argument can be applied to Jer 23:6. (BTW, Harris is a Trinitarian too). I mention that argument because it is a similar application.

Additionally, someone in Isaiah's day was prophetically called "immanuel" at Isaiah 7:14 (my NAB says it was Ahaz' son, Hezekiah) and the application is the same. YHWH worked through this person, later working through Jesus. This does not mean that I think Jesus is not YHWH, I just believe in using caution in being dogmatic about certain verses saying such. Just as calling Hezekiah "Immanuel" is not very good proof his is God, neither is calling Jesus (or Jerusalem, ha ha) "YHWH Tsidhqe´nu" proof they are. I refer to these types of arguments as "low grade" arguments because, while they may support the Trinity, they are refutable, even by Trinitarians.

regards!

n0rstar

March 27th 2003, 06:58 PM

http://www.creationdays.dk/biblestudy/God-Jehovah-tsidkenu%20def.html

they translate it both "Jehovah is our righteousness" and "Jehovah, our righteousness" in either instance, the possession of righteousness is Jehovahs.

bar Jonah

March 27th 2003, 07:07 PM

Today @ 03:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46385#post46385)
n0rstar:

http://www.creationdays.dk/biblestudy/God-Jehovah-tsidkenu%20def.html

they translate it both "Jehovah is our righteousness" and "Jehovah, our righteousness" in either instance, the possession of righteousness is Jehovahs.
It's not that simple. It does matter.

"Bob is our friend" doesn't necessarily mean the subject is Bob, himself.

"Bob, our friend" most certainly does indicate the subject is Bob.

n0rstar

March 28th 2003, 12:40 AM

Today @ 06:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46393#post46393)
RightIdea:

It's not that simple. It does matter.

"Bob is our friend" doesn't necessarily mean the subject is Bob, himself.

"Bob, our friend" most certainly does indicate the subject is Bob.

:hrm:

it has been awhile since I took Laungage Arts, but I am fairly sure in both instances, Bob is the Subject, righteousness is the adjective or Predicate, and, our is also a possessive adjective, and is, is a verb. And in this instance would be a linking verb; or links the subject to the predicate. The begging statement of the Complete thought or sentence "And this is his name with which he will be called" concludes that Jehovah is the subject

but don't get me wrong, it has been awhile since I studyed this, so I may be abit rusty, so don't attack me if I am incorrect. :p

Reasonable

March 28th 2003, 09:16 AM

I doubt a solid argument can be made either way as far as whether the "is" should be included or not, but I see RightIdea's point regarding it. In addition, I reviewed a few translations of Jer. 33:16 in regards to who they view is the object of the title "YHWH is our righteousness".

Jeremiah 33:16-

“In those days Judah will triumph and Israel live in safety. And this is the name the city will be called: Yahweh is our Saving Justice.”- The New Jerusalem Bible

reference is to Jerusalem

“In that day Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And their motto will be “The LORD is our righteousness.”- New Living Translation, The Living Bible same

"their" motto shows reference is to Judah/Jerusalem

"In those days Judah will be safe and Jerusalem shall dwell secure; this is what they shall call her: ‘The LORD our justice.’”-New American Bible

Probably in reference to Jerusalem

“In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’”-The New Revised Standard Version, NIV similar

Could reference the city or the branch of David.

“In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.”-American Standard Version, King James similar

Probably referencing the city. I don't have any translations that refer definitely to the Messiah but maybe others have a translation that does. Anyone?

These translations definitely vary in regard to using "is" or not. And it is difficult to argue effectively that any of them are absolutely referring to the Messiah. Some obviously are not. These renderings though, are just the opinions of men/women on the translation committees so they are not without fault. It could very well be referring the Messiah in both cases but how does one effectively argue 'all the translations are wrong and I am right?' This then opens up the door as to what it really means to refer to the Messiah as "YHWH is our righteousness" if Jerusalem is called the same thing.

RightIdea, you just may have the "right idea" regarding these two verses but I am not sure how well you will be able to defend it. Keep up the good work.:cheers:

bar Jonah

March 28th 2003, 11:22 AM

Reasonable, none of that changes the fact that no English translation should say (or infer) that "YHWH tzid'qenu" refers to Jerusalem or anything other than the Branch.

Because that's what Jeremiah 23 says, and the relevant part of Jeremiah 33 is worded exactly the same! There is no "he" or "she" or "it." Looking at the Hebrew, it is blatantly obvious that this "name" is referring to the Branch, and not to Jerusalem or Judah.

If Jeremiah 23 says the name belongs to the Branch, then so does Jeremiah 33. There can be no question. It's the same prophecy, for goodness' sake, repeated! Read them back to back! :smile:

Are we going to look at two printings of the exact same prophecy and interpret one significantly differently from the other? That seem to me to be absurd prima facie, whether you're an atheist, a unitarian or a Christian.

Reasonable

March 28th 2003, 12:34 PM

Today @ 03:22 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46934#post46934)
RightIdea:

Reasonable, none of that changes the fact that no English translation should say (or infer) that "YHWH tzid'qenu" refers to Jerusalem or anything other than the Branch.

Because that's what Jeremiah 23 says, and the relevant part of Jeremiah 33 is worded exactly the same! There is no "he" or "she" or "it." Looking at the Hebrew, it is blatantly obvious that this "name" is referring to the Branch, and not to Jerusalem or Judah.

If Jeremiah 23 says the name belongs to the Branch, then so does Jeremiah 33. There can be no question. It's the same prophecy, for goodness' sake, repeated! Read them back to back! :smile:

Are we going to look at two printings of the exact same prophecy and interpret one significantly differently from the other? That seem to me to be absurd prima facie, whether you're an atheist, a unitarian or a Christian.

You're right. My bad. I should have known you would have the correct understanding and everyone else would be wrong. No point in discussing it anymore.

:no:

bar Jonah

March 28th 2003, 02:01 PM

Today @ 09:34 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46999#post46999)
Reasonable:
You're right. My bad. I should have known you would have the correct understanding and everyone else would be wrong. No point in discussing it anymore.

:no:
Reasonable, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not giving you my opinion. I am pointing out facts. And the fact is, these two passages are worded exactly the same, but for some reason, people are claiming one is referring to Christ and another is referring to a city or nation. And that's just bad hermeneutic.

It's the same exact prophecy, worded the same! Do you dispute that?

Bill the Cat

March 28th 2003, 05:40 PM

So how do we handle the Zec. passage?

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

The Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge states in relation to this:

they shall look: That this relates to the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, and to his being pierced by the soldier’s spear, we have the authority of the inspired apostle John for affirming; and this application agrees with the opinion of some of the ancient Jews, who interpret it of Messiah the son of David, as Moses Hadarson, on Gen. 28, though Jarchi and Abarbanel refer it to the death of Messiah the son of Joseph, whom they say was to be the suffering Messiah, while the former is to be the triumphant Messiah. Psa_22:16, Psa_22:17; Joh_1:29, Joh_19:34-37; Heb_12:2; Rev_1:7
Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge by Canne, Browne, Blayney, Scott, and others about 1880, with introduction by R. A. Torrey.

AVmetro

March 29th 2003, 12:37 AM

I honestly don't believe it will matter to the detractor just how explicit the reference to Jesus as being YHWH is. Take for example Zech14:2-4..cf..Acts1:10-11. The obvious fulfillment in 'YHWH's feet touching Mt. Olivet' comes in Jesus' second coming. Of course the detractors response will fall along the lines of

"It only states this as Jesus is the perfect representative of God on earth."

A statement with which I do not necessarily disagree with in full nor would I have to in order to implement a view of the Trinity.

I think this issue (agency) is addressed quite well in Bauckham's book "God Crucified" in noting the essential differences between Christ and God's angelic agents. I think everyone can see what he means in harmonizing Dan7:14..cf..Phil2:10-11..cf..Rev5:13 etc,.

God bless--AV

PS - nOstar, thank you for being as cordial as you have thus far. ;)

AVmetro

March 29th 2003, 12:42 AM

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Some ATrins argue for the varient of "look to the one whom they have pierced.." in order to object to this passage as a proof-text. Of course, this begs the question of why they objected in this manner in the first place when we have much more explicit passages such as the one I mentioned and the subsequent reply they give in such instances.

LambofElohim

March 26th 2009, 05:31 PM

Greetings,

It seems to me that you already know who Jesus is so why ask? Before you can know who or what something or someone is you have to first know who and what he or it isn't.

Jesus Christ is not the Son of Jehovah. He is not a sacrifice for sins, He is not the King of the Jews. He is not the son of David. He is not any of the Jesuses born from virgins in Luke or Matthew. he is not even the Son of God in Mark.

Next time I will tell you who and what he is.

The Brother of the Jesus Christ that the only true God hast sent
Reverend Carlton

Watchtower huh? perfect name so they can watch as their tower of lies comes crashing to the ground as The Truth be made known.

barley

February 15th 2010, 09:43 AM

It would be a noble action on your part to quote the passage from Revelation 1:8 accurately. It says "saith the Lord" not "saith the Lord God". Thank you for paying attention.

barley

February 15th 2010, 09:55 AM

Revelation 22:13. This passage refers to Jesus Christ. To conclude that to claim that someone is God because he says he the beginning and the end is faulty logic and lacks substance. I claim that I am the beginning and end, and I am perfectly right from a scriptural standpoint. The misunderstanding is in not properly asking and answering questions. I am the beginning and ending of what? In my case, I am the beginning and end of me. I was not until my beginning and will continue until my end. No scriptural contradiction. What was Jesus Christ referring to? He is the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15. His ministry was the beginning of the end of the adversary and the beginning of God's plan for our redemption. What an unmatched example of stedfast love and obedience to the word of God!
Edit: What if I am wrong to suggest that Rev 22:3 is referring to JC? Everything that the proponents of a trinity and likewise the proponents of the so called deity of Jesus Christ use for evidence and logic is questionable at best. By the same use of evidence and logic, it is easy to prove that my mother is an elephant.
1. Elephants have round bodies, my mother had a round body
2. Elephants have a trunk, my mother has a trunk
3. Elephants have stout legs, my mother has stout legs.
4. Elephans never forget, my mother never forgot.

Therefore my mother is an elephant. Similarity does not prove identity. I am, (oops, I said, "I am" does that prove that I am God? Wait, didn't I just say I am God" ) to follow God, Ephesians 5:1. follower =mimetes = imitators. God's will is that when people see me, they should see the Father. I love it. What a wonderful life and privilege God has called us to. And to boot, God provided a perfect example of what it means to imitate God. Jesus Christ, my older brother. He is a son of God, I, too, am a son of God, I John 3:1-2.

barley

February 15th 2010, 10:01 AM

1. No.
2. Not qualified to answer, since I am not a Hebrew scholar. However, Since, I can read English, it is very easy to conclude that the Old Testament abhors the idea of a trinity, and abhors the idea of a physical object, which would include a human being, being the God.
3. Jesus Christ had a very long list of roles.
4. No. Never, Jesus Christ is not the source, God only is the source of all goodness, love and light.

barley

March 8th 2010, 12:55 AM

Revelation 22:13 refers to Jesus Christ, see verse 16. Revelation 22:16 but not directly, for it is an angel of God that is actually doing the speaking on behalf of Jesus Christ. See Revelation 22:8, the angel showed John things, verse 9 says, "Then saith he unto me..." the he is the angel from verse 8 which shewed John these things. Jesus Christ sent an angel to testify these things. The angel speaks on the behalf of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was certainly exalted by God for Jesus Christ's incredible obedience to his Father.

barnasha

March 8th 2010, 01:11 AM

revelation is someone's dream (aka vision).

The Anointed, Joshua of Nazareth, repeatedly referred to himself as a human being, according to bible. "Son of man" is the translation into English, but in English we just say "a human" or "a man".

any other imagined theological musings are certainly not compatible with the historical record, "the bible" being the primary source

UrbanMonk

March 9th 2010, 12:19 AM

Is Jesus realy part of a Trinity?

Man is not Go(o)d, let alone the Son of Go(o)d. The plan of salvation revolves around a link in the infinite chain of Go(o)dhood. In the Kingdom of Go(o)d, there are as many Fathers as there are Sons, because every Son becomes a Father. In this way, all in Heaven are equals. This never ends. The plan of salvation revolved around Our Father, our Self, and the Link that keeps our mind from wandering away from the Kingdom of Go(o)d. The Holy Spirit is a mediator between Our Father and the wandering mind of our Self.

Does the Ancient Hebrew scriptures support his existence?

Jes(us), the man, is representative of all of us. What's true about him is the truth about all of us. He came here the same way we all came here...down (fallen) from Heaven, so-to-speak. But that's not the absolute truth about Jesus. The absolute truth is that he is Chr(I)st, the Son of Go(o)d. Likewise, what is absolutely true about Jesus is absolutely true about us.

To the extent that scritures support the existence of the "son of man" (meaning: mankind), it supports his existence (as it does ours). It does not support the existence of anyone special save a national superhero called "the Messiah". Jesus was beyond the Jewish concept of Messiah, saying, "My Kingdom is not of this world".

Was Jesus a savior? Yes to the degree that anyone listened to what he had to say and take his words to heart. Was Jesus a King/Lord? Yes, in his absolute truth, he has all power in Heaven, as do we. The Jews were not looking for the kind of salvation Jesus was offering on behalf of the Holy Spirit/Our Father. They were looking for an earthly kind of salvation. Conversely, Jesus told them the world would pass away when true salvation was complete. And the only one's left standing would be Our Father, the Son/Self, and our equal Brother, the Holy Spirit.

What was Jesus' role on earth?

To lay down his (false) existence as a man, and take up his real life as Chr(I)st. His role is the same as our own role. In playing this role, one automatically becomes a savior of his Self, and anyone who will listen and take wisdom to heart. Jesus was a teacher of Go(o)d who listened to the Spirit and spoke as he heard. He learned that he was, in truth, the Son of Go(o)d. In a lie, he is the son of man. So, he said, "Call no man father".

Prayer: Should we pray to Jesus?

Sure. He leads the at-one-ment....the movement that brings the Son of Go(o)d back together, restoring the oneness of the Son of Go(o)d. He does this by teaching us to lay down that which keeps us separate, namely, our lives as individually unique, differentiated and separated beings. We are all being shepherded toward oneness. When we reach it, we cannot die.

May a miracle come your way.

headheart

March 19th 2010, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by n0rstar (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=42713#post42713)
Prayer: Should we pray to Jesus?

Sure. He leads the at-one-ment....the movement that brings the Son of Go(o)d back together, restoring the oneness of the Son of Go(o)d. He does this by teaching us to lay down that which keeps us separate, namely, our lives as individually unique, differentiated and separated beings. We are all being shepherded toward oneness. When we reach it, we cannot die.

May a miracle come your way.

urbanmonk,

Seperation from GOD, in the first place was a result of sin. Sin in itself attacks our uniqueness, and individuality.
When Jesus died for our sins, he not only made it possible for us to be reunited with GOD, but he made available to us 'life and life more abundantly', by taking our sin, in his body upon the cross.
The freedom in Christ, is a freedom of expression, a celebration of uniqueness, and individuality, and out of that freedom comes a huge capacity to love our brothers and sisters and accept their uniqueness and individuality.

Oneness without the cross, is not oneness at all; it is just a broken down castle, with broken down walls.
'The Kingdom of God within, is no more than a broken down castle without a King'.

Let Jesus reign in your heart, a give you back the years that the locust has eaten.

Sincerely,
HH

barnasha

March 21st 2010, 05:40 PM

Prayer: Should we pray to Jesus?
Sure. He leads the at-one-ment....the movement that brings the Son of Go(o)d back together, restoring the oneness of the Son of Go(o)d. He does this by teaching us to lay down that which keeps us separate, namely, our lives as individually unique, differentiated and separated beings. We are all being shepherded toward oneness. When we reach it, we cannot die.

yes, a fantasy in which we pray "to" jesus might seem much more magical than the real thing, which was to pray as jesus taught us... but such a fantasy is a waste of time and against jesus's teachings.

barley

March 23rd 2010, 02:51 AM

Rev 22:13 clearly represents Jehovah

[/quote]

Thank you for your response!

When did Jehovah die?

Rev 1:8-18

" "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His breast with a golden girdle. And His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire; and His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been caused to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. And in His right hand He held seven stars; and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

You might want to actually read what was spoken and by whom it was spoken. In verse 8, one Alpha and Omega, who is the Lord, is speaking. In verse 9 John is speaking. In verse 10 different speaker is introduced and is also referred to as Alpha and Omega, see verse 11.. this secondary A and O is like the son of man, see verse 13. This refers to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, the son of man died, Jehovah did not die.

barley

March 23rd 2010, 03:06 AM

no, there is 1 saviour Jesus Christ, and 1 God, whom sent him forth Jehovah

Thousands of times throughout the Bible, God is spoken of as one person. When he speaks, it is as one undivided individual. The Bible could not be any clearer on this. As God states: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory.” (Isaiah 42:8) “I am Yahweh your God . . . You shall have no gods except me.” (Italics ours.)—Exodus 20:2,_3, JB.

Those words are found at Deuteronomy 6:4. The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) here reads: “Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh.” In the grammar of that verse, the word “one” has no plural modifiers to suggest that it means anything but one individual. -- (1989) Trinity Brochure; p. 13; published by the WatchTower Orginization
In Judges 6:14, Gideon was sent by God to save God's people. In I Samuel 23:5, David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. II Kings 15:27, the Lord saved by the hand of Jeroboam. Jesus Christ is a savior. God is also a savior. So far, we have at least four saviors. As in Jeroboam. God by the hand of Jesus Christ saves. God supplied the power, Jesus Christ made good use of it.

barley

March 23rd 2010, 03:22 AM

barley

March 23rd 2010, 03:34 AM

UrbanMonk

March 23rd 2010, 11:26 AM

urbanmonk,
When Jesus died for our sins, he not only made it possible for us to be reunited with GOD, but he made available to us 'life and life more abundantly'

Let's look at the catch phrase "died for our sins" more closely.

Translation: Jesus relinquished his ego as an example for us to follow. This is the only way he could have truly helped us overcome our own sin(s): ego(s). That's the only way he could become a teacher of salvation. A teacher must be clear about "the way". The only way to be truly clear is to be without an ego. To "die to sin" is the same as to relinquish the ego. We must all "die to sin" just as Jesus died to sin. Obviously, if we are being asked to die to sin, then Jesus didn't "die for our sins" the way you think. We, who cherish our egos, are the only ones who can rightly relinquish them. Jesus will not help us without permission. Because he has no ego, he is positioned to help us relinquish ours, if we so choose. Helping us is as far as he will go to doing anything "for" us. We must go the same way he went. There are no shortcuts, as your interpretation implies. To the extent that he is helping us (from an egoless position), he makes it possible for our mind(s) to be (re)united with the mind of Chr(I)st. To be reunited with/as Chr(I)st is to know the true meaning of Abundance and Life.

, by taking our sin, in his body upon the cross.

Translation: This is a poetic statement. Jes(us) *stood for* us in every way. He *stood for* us on the cross and also stood for us in his death-defying exodus out of a tomb (after a little time). "Stood for" means that Jes(us)' experiences were a metaphor for our own. We are all hanging on a cross, so long as we experience time. Time is a tomb in which we are all "dead" until we exodus time and follow Jesus back to Eternity (timelessness). You are confusing a poetic expression for a vicarious rite of passage. There is no vicarious salvation. Each of our mistake-laden minds must be corrected of all error. Jesus' experience does not save our minds unless it is understood. Understood insanely, it is wasted. Understood rightly, his efforts may be leveraged toward the healing of our sense of separation.

UrbanMonk

March 23rd 2010, 11:43 AM

urbanmonk,

Seperation from GOD, in the first place was a result of sin. Sin in itself attacks our uniqueness, and individuality.

This statement doesn't make much sense. Our uniqueness and individuality is what separates us from a realm of equality, namely, the World of Go(o)d, and specifically, from Go(o)d. It is "sin" which establishes our unique individuality by attacking our equality with Go(o)d. So, you have it backwards once again because you are merely interested in preserving your sense of individual uniqueness at the expense of unity with Go(o)d. You have not yet "died to sin" so-to-speak. Sin is still very much alive in your mind.

The freedom in Christ, is a freedom of expression, a celebration of uniqueness, and individuality, and out of that freedom comes a huge capacity to love our brothers and sisters and accept their uniqueness and individuality.

Kumbaya. But you are confusing the Will of Chr(I)st with freedom of expression in Chr(i)st. We are free to express our "self" as a unique individual. We are also free to tell lies...as many lies as we want. Chr(I)st will not interfere with our lie-telling or our masquerade parties. Individuality, is for one, not the true nature of Chr(I)st. Individuality is a seriously insane notion (s.i.n.) about the nature of Chr(I)st. Chr(I)st is not special because Chr(I)st is equal to every living Being in the World of Go(o)d. To be special, you have to imagine your own little world inside your own little-ized mind. Such is "this world"...a world where everything is separate from every other thing...and everything dies. Kumbaya. Celebrate diversity all you want. But it's diversity that ultimately kills (ie. the truth of oneness). Simply observe an example. The Hutus killed Tutsis because they were different. There's something about differences that tempts us to go to war. And there will always be conflict so long as there are differences. At-one-ment solves that problem by (re)assimilating the appearance of many minds into the one mind of Chr(I)st. Only when everyone has everything (is equal) will the conflict end.