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A Beautiful Truth
March 29th 2004, 06:22 PM
A short while back, I mentioned that a member at my church has been causing trouble because of my husband and my belief in an old earth. He went so far as to send out a letter saying my husband and I taught false doctrine because of our belief in an old earth.

He said our belief in millions of years of animal life and death before the fall was a charge against God's character.

This has led to some of my friends questioning me about this. His argument is full of emotion and lots of "My God wouldn't..."

I thought the article below was a very good treatment of the subject.


Animal Death Before the Fall:
What Does the Bible Say?
By Rev. Lee Irons | Web Site: http://www.upper-register.com

Did animals experience death before the Fall, that is, before Adam and Eve transgressed the creation covenant by eating the forbidden fruit? As one whose training lies in the area of biblical interpretation and theology, I am not qualified to speak on the scientific aspects of this question - although I will state at the outset that I find the empirical evidence for an old earth and universe to be compelling, if not incontrovertible. And I believe that this evidence is consistent with a firm commitment to the authoritative, inspired, and inerrant Word of God.

I do not believe that macroevolution, in particular an evolutionary understanding of the origin of man, is as strongly supported by science, and I do not find it to be consistent with the teaching of Scripture. However, I see no compelling biblical reason to deny the reality of microevolution, as long as it is understood within the context of God's providential control. Supernatural creation of the various kinds [1] must be posited throughout the creation era, a fact that is attested both in the Genesis account and in the book of nature (i.e., the repeated appearance of new kinds in the fossil record). Once the kinds have been created by divine fiat, however, there is room for evolutionary processes, including the production of many distinct new species within the kinds. Thus I would be comfortable with the label "old earth, progressive creationist," although I hold to the framework interpretation of the days of Genesis rather than the more widely known day-age view. [2]

If the above sketch is anywhere near to the actual historical truth, it implies that plants and animals died before the Fall. According to the fossil record nature was "red in tooth and claw." In view of the vast ages between the first evidence of life and the appearance of man, this description would necessarily be true prior to the Fall. But this conception of the pre-Fall state presents a jarring contrast with the typical Sunday School picture of Adam and Eve in the garden, dwelling peacefully in an idyllic state, where all the animals were herbivores and the wolf was dwelling with the lamb.

Appealing to the biblical doctrine of the Fall and the subsequent curse, many young earth creationists have argued that the Fall of man was the event that introduced biological death into creation. Prior to Adam's sin, they argue, there was no death in the human or animal realms, and no predatory behavior among the animals. Four biblical texts are commonly quoted in support of this view. We will examine each in turn, followed by a brief look at two passages that support the thesis that animals did die before the Fall.

(1) Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Those who appeal to this passage to deny pre-Fall animal death must assume two things. They must assume that "death" (Greek: thanatos) means the cessation of biological life, and that "the world" (Greek: kosmos) denotes the entire created order. Both of these assumptions are based on reading certain preselected meanings into these key terms.

Let's take the word thanatos or death. In Romans 5:12-21, and in the Bible generally, death does not have an exclusively biological meaning. In verses 12-14, thanatos is defined as a divine judgment upon all mankind for Adam's transgression as the covenant head of humanity. In verse 21, death is contrasted with eternal life - which, everyone will agree, is not really a biological concept at all. Paul undoubtedly developed his theological understanding of death as divine judgment upon human sin from the Genesis creation account, where God warned Adam and Eve that "in the day that you eat of the tree you will surely die" (Gen. 2:16). Yet they did not die biologically "in the day" that they ate of the tree. Nevertheless, the divine judgment of death was executed against man, as shown symbolically in the removal of Adam and Eve from the garden, that they might not eat of the tree of life (Gen. 3:22-24). Certainly, this divine judgment included the physical cessation of biological life (Gen. 3:19), but it cannot be limited to that.

The paired concepts of life and death in both Genesis 2-3 and Romans 5 must be understood in covenantal terms as the dual divine sanctions of the covenant of works. If Adam had obeyed, he would have inherited "life," not simply continuance of biological functioning, but eternal life, as symbolically promised in the tree of life. Adam's disobedience under the covenant, on the other hand, led to the execution of the covenant sanction of death in the sense of divine judgment upon sin, which includes both the spiritual separation from God as well as biological death.

In addition to misinterpreting thanatos, those who appeal to Rom. 5:12 to deny pre-Fall animal death, must also assume a certain preselected definition of kosmos or world. The world into which sin and death entered is assumed to be the creation as a whole, including the non-human realm. But this is not the meaning that Paul seems to have in view in the context. For example, in verse 13, Paul says, "Before the Law, sin was in the kosmos." But sin cannot be "in the non-human realm." It is more likely that the term kosmos here refers to the world of humanity - a common usage of the term with which we are already familiar in John 3:16: "For God so loved the kosmos, that he gave his only begotten Son." In fact, Paul uses the phrase "all men" in the second clause of Rom. 5:12 as a synonym for "world" (and again in verse 18).

I would also point out that the simplistic appeal to Rom. 5:12 on the part of young earth creationists actually damages their own position. For if "world" means the entire creation (both human and non-human), then Rom. 5:12 would logically imply that death entered the plant kingdom as a result of Adam's sin. But no one denies plant death prior to the entrance of sin.

Paul's statement that death entered the world through Adam's sin, when properly interpreted, does not teach that death entered the non-human creation for the very first time after the Fall. It teaches that the covenantal sanction of death as the wages of human sin entered the world of humanity through the Fall of Adam.

(2) Romans 8:18-21
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Another common argument against pre-Fall animal death is the statement of Paul that the creation was subjected to "futility" as a result of the curse pronounced upon creation after the Fall (Gen. 3:16-19). The current experience of animals preying on one another and experiencing pain, suffering, and death, it is argued, is part of the curse. Some have even gone so far as to argue that the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) was set in motion via the curse upon creation. All of this is read into Paul's reference to creation's "futility" and "corruption" in this passage.

Unlike Romans 5:12, it is clear that Paul is referring to the non-human realm of creation. One thing that supports this reading is that instead of the more general term kosmos, he uses the specific term ktisis ("creation"). Furthermore, the passage distinguishes between the corruption to which the creation has been subjected from the corruption that the children of God experience as they deal with suffering in the present age. Both will be set free from corruption at the end of the age, or more precisely, when the children of God receive the redemption of their bodies at glorification (verses 23, 30).

Meredith G. Kline has argued that the corruption to which the creation is enslaved, and from which it is "eagerly longing" to be delivered, is the earth's present service as the mass "graveyard" of dead human beings. [3] Kline suggests that Paul has in mind an important passage in Isaiah 24-26 which presents this picture of the earth as a graveyard, as the context for an apocalyptic vision of the future resurrection of the dead. Here are the main selections:

Isaiah 24:4 The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away. 5 The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left… 26:19 Your dead will live; their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, for your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits … 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; and the earth will reveal her bloodshed and will no longer cover her slain.

Paul's vivid metaphor of the creation's groaning as it waits expectantly for the resurrection of the righteous seems to have been drawn from this passage. Isaiah says that "the earth mourns," because it has been made to "cover her slain." This then sets the stage for Isaiah's prophecy of the resurrection of the dead. Indeed, it is precisely the resurrection of the dead that will be the deliverance of creation from its conscripted service as the graveyard of humanity. The creation will then become the renewed dwelling place of the glorified saints.

(3) Genesis 1:29-30; 9:1-4
1:29 Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food.

9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. 3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. 4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood."

Before the Fall, God gave the vegetation to Adam and the beasts of the earth for food. After the flood, it would seem that God lifted the restriction on meat, and gave "every moving thing" for food, just as he had given the green plant. Young earth creationists therefore argue that prior to the Fall, man and beast alike were herbivores.

But Genesis 1:29-30 does not explicitly say that meat was forbidden. It only says the positive: God gave man and beast "every green plant for food." Kline suggests that this passage has a special literary purpose. [4] It was not given to define man's diet comprehensively, but to set the stage for the prohibition of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the following chapter (Gen. 2:16-17).

Furthermore, it is clear that God entrusted man with lordship over all the realms of creation, not just the plant kingdom. Man is to rule over the fish, birds, cattle, and every thing creeps on the earth (Gen. 1:26, 28). This rulership over the sub-human realms of creation is defined in the most general terms ("rule over … subdue"), suggesting not merely the use of certain domesticated animals for labor, but the also the use of milk, eggs, wool, animal skins, and so on. "You make him to rule over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field" (Psalm 8:6-7).

The post-flood account in Genesis 9:1-4 is best explained as a re-issuing of the same general lordship over creation that was given to Adam prior to the Fall. Notice that the command to "be fruitful and multiply" is identical with that given to Adam (Gen. 1:26). The fact that the mandate given to Noah, who is here pictured as a second inaugurator of the human race, includes the giving of all creatures for food, not just plants, suggests that the same mandate was given to Adam before the Fall.

It is doubtful that the permission to eat meat recorded in Genesis 9:3 must be interpreted as the first time that God authorized such a diet, since it would appear that animals had been killed at least for sacrificial purposes as early as Genesis 3:21 (the divine provision of animal skins for Adam and Eve) and 4:4 (the sacrifice of Abel). Kline argues that "what Genesis 9:3 actually authorized was the eating of all kinds of meats, thus removing the prohibition against the eating of unclean animals that had been instituted for Noah's family within the special symbolic situation in the ark-kingdom." [5]

(4) Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25
11:6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little boy will lead them. 7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

65:25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain.

In Isaiah's prophetic description of the eschatological state, carnivores are going to be supernaturally transformed into herbivores. Young earth creationists argue that, therefore, pre-Fall state was equally idyllic and free from carnivorous activity.

However, it is incorrect theologically to assume that the eschatological state will be merely a return to the pre-Fall conditions of paradise. The pre-Fall covenant of works that God made with Adam included an offer of eschatological advancement to a state of higher glory than he had as originally created. One of the distinctive theological contributions of Reformed theology, according to Geerhardus Vos, is that "what we inherit in the second Adam is not restricted to what we lost in the first Adam: it is much rather the full realization of what the first Adam would have achieved for us had he remained unfallen and been confirmed in his state." [6]

This can be seen in the Reformed doctrine of the fourfold state of man:

the state of innocence, which could be forfeited
the state of sin and condemnation in Adam
the state of grace
the state of glory
The third state cannot be forfeited, since it secured by Christ as the second Adam, whose obedience unto death fulfilled the meritorious condition of the eternal covenant of works with the Father. If the third state (of grace) is an advance upon he first, how much more is the fourth state an eschatological advancement far beyond the first! Man's very body will be glorified in the fourth state, something that Adam could have achieved had he kept the covenant of works, but not something that he possessed as he was created in the state of innocence.

It is theologically incorrect, therefore, to argue from the fourth to the first state. We should not be surprised if we find that the creatures that inhabit the new heavens and the new earth enjoy a different mode of existence than they did as they were created, for the same is true of the highest creature of all - man himself.

Having examined the passages frequently used by young earth creationists to deny pre-Fall animal death, there are two passages which positively teach that carnivorous activity is not a result of sin, but part of God's good provision of his creation from the beginning.

(5) Psalm 104:19-28
19 He made the moon for the seasons; the sun knows the place of its setting. 20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about. 21 The young lions roar after their prey and seek their food from God. 22 When the sun rises they withdraw and lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening. 24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions … 27 They all wait for You to give them their food in due season. 28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.

Psalm 104 is one of a handful of creation texts scattered throughout the Old Testament that supplement and reflect poetically upon the Genesis 1-2 account. In the context of describing the divine work of creation, we are given an insight into the nature of God's goodness and care of his creation. Commenting on the fourth day of creation, Psalm 104:19ff describes the divine establishment of the sun and the moon to govern the seasons. This poetic meditation then goes beyond the Genesis account and explains that God appointed the day-night cycle so that the beasts of the forest might prowl about at night and hunt for their prey. After a successful night of hunting, when the sun rises the next morning, the lions withdraw and lie down in their dens. This timing is perfect, for when the carnivorous hunting beasts are asleep during the daytime, man can go about his daytime labors in safety until evening.

Notice that the lions "seek their food from God," and that God gives them "their food in due season," opening his hand to "satisfy them with good." In an earlier treatment of this subject I wrote: "Such provision is a testament to the goodness of the Creator in caring for His creation … There is no suggestion in this text that we are to view the provision of prey for carnivorous beasts as anything but a blessing from the hand of a good Creator. It is certainly not pictured as an abnormality resulting from the entrance of sin into the world." [7]

(6) 1 Timothy 4:1-5
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

In this passage, Paul is warning Timothy against the Jewish legalists who wanted to impose the dietary restrictions of the Mosaic Law upon the Gentiles, in addition to a number of man-made rules like celibacy. Such ascetic principles, which Paul refers to as "bodily discipline" (verse 8), may have had the appearance of godliness, but in reality they were the "doctrines of demons." Why? Because such prohibitions involve an attitude of rejecting something that the Creator himself made for our enjoyment. Just as Paul appeals to the creation order to justify the goodness of marriage, so he appeals to creation to justify the eating of all foods, "for every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude." If marriage was a pre-Fall ordinance given to man in his innocence and, on that ground, is not to be rejected, there must also have been a divine permission before the Fall to partake of "every creature of God."

ENDNOTES
[1] The Hebrew word "kind" (min) is broader than the scientific concept of "species." This can be seen by comparing the usage in Genesis 1 with the usage in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.

[2] For more on old earth or progressive creationism see the essay by Robert C. Newman in Three Views on Creation and Evolution, ed. J. P. Moreland and John Mark Reynolds (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999). For the framework interpretation, see my contribution in consultation with Meredith G. Kline in The Genesis Debate: Three Views on the Days of Creation, ed. by David Hagopian (Mission Viejo, CA: Crux Press, 2001). I personally enjoyed and profited from the exchange with Hugh Ross and Gleason L. Archer, who defended the day-age view.

[3] Kline, "Death, Leviathan, and the Martyrs: Isaiah 24:1-27:1," in A Tribute to Gleason Archer, ed. Ronald F. Youngblood (Chicago: Moody Press, 1986).

[4] Kline, Kingdom Prologue: Genesis Foundations for a Covenantal Worldview (Overland Park, KS: Two Age Press, 2000), pp. 54-56.

[5] Ibid., p. 55. Kline interprets the bringing of seven pairs of each clean animal into the ark as a typological anticipation of the theocratic kingdom of Israel, where the holiness of God demanded that the clean-unclean distinction be observed (Genesis 7:2-3; 8:20; cp. Leviticus 11:44-47; 20:25-26).

[6] Geerhardus Vos, "The Doctrine of the Covenant in Reformed Theology," in Redemptive History and Biblical Interpretation, ed. Richard B. Gaffin, Jr. (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1980), p. 243.

[7] Irons with Kline, in The Genesis Debate (see note 2 above), pp. 286-7.

brett
April 10th 2004, 11:17 PM
A short while back, I mentioned that a member at my church has been causing trouble because of my husband and my belief in an old earth. He went so far as to send out a letter saying my husband and I taught false doctrine because of our belief in an old earth.

He said our belief in millions of years of animal life and death before the fall was a charge against God's character.

This has led to some of my friends questioning me about this. His argument is full of emotion and lots of "My God wouldn't..."

I thought the article below was a very good treatment of the subject.


Animal Death Before the Fall:
What Does the Bible Say?
By Rev. Lee Irons | Web Site: http://www.upper-register.com

I was recently doing an internet search on animal death and sin and noticed the first hit was your article by Irons. The very next hit was an article by ICR. http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-191.htm.
DEATH BEFORE SIN?
- IMPACT No. 191 May 1989
by James S. Stambaugh *

I found the latter more compelling for several reasons. Perhaps the strongest was the section entitled:
MEANING OF "GOOD"
Genesis 1:31 strikes me as an airtight case against animal death before the fall.

Gen. 1:31 And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day the sixth.

The day-ager seemly has no choice but to affirm animal death and suffering as “very good.” For Gen 1:31 is a summary statement of all the previous days (for the day-ager, the last six million/billion years). Therefore, if I were an OEC bible believer watching Discovery channel with my kid and viewing a crocodile latching on to an unsuspecting antelope’s neck, twisting him round and round, dragging him into the water, or a pack of hyena ripping the legs off a newly born wildebeest as it’s helpless mother watches, or a lion ripping into the belly of zebra, while it’s still alive!, or of course, Allosaurus, ripping off a piece of Diplodocus' neck, I would have no choice but to turn to my enquiring child and say, “gee honey, according to God, this is stuff is all really, really good! It’s exactly the way He intended it!”

Just also want to mention that originally I was a day-ager influenced by Norm Geisler and others. I think it’s interesting that initially it was not the scriptures that influenced me over to YEC, but actually the science, or perhaps I should say, scientists (in hindsight, that probably wasn’t the right approach). I’ve always been impressed with the clarity I hear from YEC scientists. OECers always seem to eventually go way over my head, especially when challenged. Dennis Prager (a politically conservative jewish commentator) said something a while back that’s always stuck with me. He said if your reading an expert (a textbook for instance in a class) and you don’t understand what the author is saying, there’s good chance they actually don’t understand themselves what they’re trying to teach you. For the better one understands something, the better he’s able to convey it (obviously this isn’t always true, but it’s a good rule of thumb). In my personal experience, as a nonscientist, I’ve still yet come across that OECer who can effectively bring his arguments down to my level and make a convincing case.

A young earther who recently did do this, was Dr. Humphreys in his book Starlight & Time. I actually feel I have a pretty good grasp of the true model of the Big Bang. I have to say I was blown away at how much it differed from my original concept. Afterward, I feel I was better able to compare Big Bang Cosmology to Humphreys' White Hole Cosmology. The latter is a slam dunk, in my view. I do recommend the book to anyone struggling with the starlight/distance/time issue. Especially if you’re like me, and see huge problems with the "appearance of age theory", or "light created in transit theory".

At any rate, I really would encourage you, Charleen, to perhaps give some of the more reputable YECers more of a chance to persuade you (assuming you haven’t already done so). Now of course certainly the scripture needs to be your starting point, but let's face it, there are some very effective stumbling blocks out there in the form of scientific theory. Thank God for creations scientists! Just some thoughts.

kuboes1831
April 11th 2004, 02:02 AM
There is no biblical support for animal death before the Fall, unless you want to force scripture to mean what it doesnt say/

Can't answer as must preach on the greatest catastrophic event of the last 12 billion years this morning

brett
April 13th 2004, 07:10 PM
There is no biblical support for animal death before the Fall, unless you want to force scripture to mean what it doesnt say

Is that a freudian slip, or what? :nc:

A Beautiful Truth
May 1st 2004, 04:34 PM
Genesis 1:31 strikes me as an airtight case against animal death before the fall.

Gen. 1:31 And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day the sixth.

The day-ager seemly has no choice but to affirm animal death and suffering as “very good.” For Gen 1:31 is a summary statement of all the previous days (for the day-ager, the last six million/billion years).

Hey Brett, sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Yes, you are right, the OEC has to look upon animal death as "very good." And it is in the eye of the beholder, Brett. One sees animal death as terrible, another sees animals death as an intricate way to keep earth's ecology in balance.

This earth was never created to be just like Heaven, but it is the best possible way to get there. Animal death is part of the natural system that keeps earth in balance. That is indeed, "very good"!

erefore, if I were an OEC bible believer watching Discovery channel with my kid and viewing a crocodile latching on to an unsuspecting antelope’s neck, twisting him round and round, dragging him into the water, or a pack of hyena ripping the legs off a newly born wildebeest as it’s helpless mother watches, or a lion ripping into the belly of zebra, while it’s still alive!, or of course, Allosaurus, ripping off a piece of Diplodocus' neck, I would have no choice but to turn to my enquiring child and say, “gee honey, according to God, this is stuff is all really, really good! It’s exactly the way He intended it!”

Do you see what has happened here. NO longer are we talking scripture, but philosophy. You reject OEC for philisophical reasons because you cannot see the good in carniverous activity (millions of years of it, too, if the days are long periods of time).

OECers always seem to eventually go way over my head, especially when challenged. Dennis Prager (a politically conservative jewish commentator) said something a while back that’s always stuck with me. He said if your reading an expert (a textbook for instance in a class) and you don’t understand what the author is saying, there’s good chance they actually don’t understand themselves what they’re trying to teach you. For the better one understands something, the better he’s able to convey it (obviously this isn’t always true, but it’s a good rule of thumb). In my personal experience, as a nonscientist, I’ve still yet come across that OECer who can effectively bring his arguments down to my level and make a convincing case.

Well, if I could find somebody to explain General Relativity to me on my level (not high by any means) should I believe him? No, because General Relativity simply cannot be properly understood on a lower level. It does not mean that it is wrong, it just means that I do not (and probably cannot) understand it.

A young earther who recently did do this, was Dr. Humphreys in his book Starlight & Time. I actually feel I have a pretty good grasp of the true model of the Big Bang. I have to say I was blown away at how much it differed from my original concept. Afterward, I feel I was better able to compare Big Bang Cosmology to Humphreys' White Hole Cosmology. The latter is a slam dunk, in my view. I do recommend the book to anyone struggling with the starlight/distance/time issue. Especially if you’re like me, and see huge problems with the "appearance of age theory", or "light created in transit theory".

Well, you are welcome to embrace his work, but people who understand general relativity and very complex math do NOT embrace Humphreys. To me, I don't know why the YEers feel they need to put forth scientific arguments for their position, they disregard science so much, it amazes me. I feel we need to stick to the scriptures when we discuss OE vs. YE.

At any rate, I really would encourage you, Charleen, to perhaps give some of the more reputable YECers more of a chance to persuade you (assuming you haven’t already done so). Now of course certainly the scripture needs to be your starting point, but let's face it, there are some very effective stumbling blocks out there in the form of scientific theory. Thank God for creations scientists! Just some thoughts.

I appreciate your kind words, Brett. Thank you for maintaining this attitude. I have considered the YE position. As far as considereing YE creation scientists, well, I think we need to just stick with the scriptures and not bring science into it.

brett
May 5th 2004, 06:06 AM
Hey Brett, sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Yes, you are right, the OEC has to look upon animal death as "very good." And it is in the eye of the beholder, Brett. One sees animal death as terrible, another sees animals death as an intricate way to keep earth's ecology in balance.

Interesting admission.


This earth was never created to be just like Heaven, but it is the best possible way to get there. Animal death is part of the natural system that keeps earth in balance. That is indeed, "very good"!

Animal torment and suffering was the “best possible way” for God to accomplish His will in a pre-fallen world? Do you have any scripture to back this up.


Do you see what has happened here. NO longer are we talking scripture, but philosophy.

Charleen, what are you talking about? I’m curious how you would define philosophy. I’m simply making logical arguments. Are you not doing the same? You really want to keep the Bible and logic separate? (I also think philosophy is inseparable from theology, but I’ll wait to hear your definition first)


You reject OEC for philisophical reasons because you cannot see the good in carnivorous activity (millions of years of it, too, if the days are long periods of time).

The good in “carnivorous activity”?? Talk about a euphemism! What’s wrong with terms like pain, agony and suffering? Ok fine, you accuse me of coming to a philosophical conclusion. Please show me biblically, apart from any philosophy, that animal pain, suffering and agony are “very good.”


Well, if I could find somebody to explain General Relativity to me on my level (not high by any means) should I believe him? No, because General Relativity simply cannot be properly understood on a lower level. It does not mean that it is wrong, it just means that I do not (and probably cannot) understand it.

I would strongly suggest you reconsider this viewpoint. A lot of people say the same thing about theology. They think it’s so high above them, they are forced to believe the “experts” and just go with the majority opinion. Unfortunately, the majority of clergy in christendom today are quite liberal.

One of the things I like about Humphreys’ book is he actually brings some of these lofty concepts down to earth—things such as “gravitational time dilation” and “bounded or unbounded cosmos”. They’re really not all that difficult to understand. If you’re capable of grappling with deep theological subjects like soteriology, I don't see why you're intemidated by this stuff. Have you read his book by any chance (Starlight and Time)? I’ll assume you haven’t and strongly recommend it. Charleen God gave you a working logical mind. Don’t just dismiss something because some “experts” told you to. I think you’ll really appreciate his work. I think you'll also appreciate the section where he discusses some of the older YEC theories such as the “light created in transit theory.” He agrees with Ross about the “philosophical” problems with it, as well as the fact that it has absolutely no biblical support.


Well, you are welcome to embrace his work, but people who understand general relativity and very complex math do NOT embrace Humphreys.

So? What does that prove? People who understand very complex math don’t embrace Ross. People who are experts in history don’t embrace the Bible. Seems you’re just arbitrarily choosing which experts to believe.


To me, I don't know why the YEers feel they need to put forth scientific arguments for their position, they disregard science so much, it amazes me. I feel we need to stick to the scriptures when we discuss OE vs. YE.

This is quite an accusation. It’s so unfair it’s almost ad hominem. Neither OEC nor YEC’s disregard science. Yet both OEC and YEC’s reject various scientific theories. For instance both reject the theory of evolution. Does that mean they're desregarding science? Come on Charleen, you're above that kind of rhetoric.


I appreciate your kind words, Brett. Thank you for maintaining this attitude. I have considered the YE position. As far as considereing YE creation scientists, well, I think we need to just stick with the scriptures and not bring science into it.

Charleen, the entire OEC movement is driven by modern scientific theory. They didn’t just look at scriptures such as:

Gen. 7:18 And the water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 And the water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. 20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.

and without any consideration of modern science, say “oh well of course 'mountains' here doesn’t really mean mountains and of course 'all' doesn’t mean all and of course 'everywhere under the heavens' only means right here locally." They didn’t close there eyes to modern science and just happen to come up with a compatible interpretation. Please tell me you know better than this.

jason
May 5th 2004, 06:28 AM
Animal torment and suffering was the “best possible way” for God to accomplish His will in a pre-fallen world? Do you have any scripture to back this up.
How much do animals actually suffer ? There always seems to be a lot of drippy sentimentality in these sorts of claims from YEC's.

The good in “carnivorous activity”?? Talk about a euphemism! What’s wrong with terms like pain, agony and suffering? Ok fine, you accuse me of coming to a philosophical conclusion. Please show me biblically, apart from any philosophy, that animal pain, suffering and agony are “very good.”
You'd need to demonstrate that animal suffering is as terrible as you make out. But more to the point. You are coming to an entirely philisophical conclusion unless you can provide some scripture to demonstrate that it is not good.

I think your just being a bit wet having such a problem with it.

Charleen, the entire OEC movement is driven by modern scientific theory. They didn’t just look as scriptures such as:
:ahem: This is just as much an ad hom.

and without any consideration of modern science, say “oh well of course “mountains” here doesn’t really mean mountains and of course “all” doesn’t mean all and of course “everywhere under the heavens” only means right here locally. They didn’t close there eyes to modern science and just happen to come up with a compatible interpretation. Please tell me you know better than this.
Is there any reason to disregard God's revelation in nature just to appease somebodies wrong headed insistence on one reading of scripture ?

Jason

Socratism
May 5th 2004, 10:10 PM
I read Rev. Iron's paper and agreed that his first two points were strong, but the rest were weak.

I have trouble believing that billions of years of evolution and nature "red with tooth and claw" (or whatever) were "very good".

Jason,

God's "revelation in nature" has been misinterpreted by pagan, idol worshipping cultures down through the ages. Today's culture is doing likewise.

Better to stick to His inspired revelation which was authenticated by Jesus Christ.

jason
May 5th 2004, 11:51 PM
I have trouble believing that billions of years of evolution and nature "red with tooth and claw" (or whatever) were "very good".
Obvious problem being that you are unintentionally misrepresenting Ross's position if you think this represents it.

And seeing as Charleen and myself more or less subscribe to such an idea you misrepresent us as well.

And I think your just being a bit wet about the whole thing.

God's "revelation in nature" has been misinterpreted by pagan, idol worshipping cultures down through the ages. Today's culture is doing likewise.

Better to stick to His inspired revelation which was authenticated by Jesus Christ.
I agree. I just disagree with how your reading it. How many times do I need to say this ?

Jason

Socratism
May 6th 2004, 01:02 PM
Obvious problem being that you are unintentionally misrepresenting Ross's position if you think this represents it.

And seeing as Charleen and myself more or less subscribe to such an idea you misrepresent us as well.

And I think your just being a bit wet about the whole thing.

I agree. I just disagree with how your reading it. How many times do I need to say this ?

Jason

God said that everything He had created was "very good". Presumably He was referring to everything He had created during Creation Week up to that point (how ever long that period was).

So in what way am I misrepresenting the situation?

kuboes1831
May 6th 2004, 06:12 PM
Please dont tell God what very good is in your opinion. That is a bit cheeky.

Socratism
May 6th 2004, 10:27 PM
Please dont tell God what very good is in your opinion. That is a bit cheeky.

In what way am I telling God what "very good" is by reading what He said with my God-given intellect and having an opinion regarding what that means?

It is very hard to not have an opinion about something you have read.

I would imagine you have an opinion about what was meant by "very good". Or do you?

JCA
May 6th 2004, 10:44 PM
It seems there is always a little room for compromise.. if one looks hard enough.

Just because there may have been death before the fall, why is it presumed that any animal suffered? How do we not know that there weren't enough animals dying naturally in their sleep - from which I should think there is little suffering - to feed those meat eaters? By the same token, before the fall, who says that the nature of the animlas WAS to stalk and 'kill' their prey? Maybe they learned those skills playing, and after the fall a change in behavior happened..

Maybe the wolf didn't lay down with the lamb, but neither did it 'kill' for food.

Do you see what I mean? What would not be 'good' about that? Death does not have to be ruled out.. only some peoples interpretation of what death is all about for all except mankind.

JMHO.

IN Love and Peace

:jca:

potato sundae
May 6th 2004, 10:58 PM
is there not something fundamentally disturbing when you witness one of the seemingly infinite clips on the national geographic channel of a lion ripping apart its prey?

i know, i know, its just an opinion...just a "feeling" someone might get, but sometimes the things in nature are a little disturbing...

jason
May 6th 2004, 11:39 PM
is there not something fundamentally disturbing when you witness one of the seemingly infinite clips on the national geographic channel of a lion ripping apart its prey?
I've always felt awe.

And to be honest, it is benificial to the animal population to have a predator to control population numbers.

Without the predators to remove the sick and the aged from the population, and trim the numbers up a bit, the herbivores would quickly eat everything around them and then starve.

And starving to death has got to be way worse than being eaten by a lion.

So actually I see it as a really amazing bit of biological design with wonderful feed back loops built right in.

Unlike human hunters, animal predators eat the sick and the old. Not the "best and brightest".

I've said it once and i'll say it again, I think people that make this argument are just a but soft.

Jason

Socrates
May 9th 2004, 08:29 AM
And to be honest, it is benificial to the animal population to have a predator to control population numbers.

Without the predators to remove the sick and the aged from the population, and trim the numbers up a bit, the herbivores would quickly eat everything around them and then starve.
Oh, of course, God was incapable of controlling that in any other way. Never mind that He prevented the Israelites' clothes and shoes from wearing out in the wilderness for 40 years (Dt. 29:5).

And starving to death has got to be way worse than being eaten by a lion.
Why does it have to be either/or in a pre-Fall world?

So actually I see it as a really amazing bit of biological design with wonderful feed back loops built right in.
Maybe so, for a fallen world. YECs believe that Adam's fall actually made a difference.

Unlike human hunters, animal predators eat the sick and the old. Not the "best and brightest".
So you believe there was sickness and aging in the "very good" creation before the Fall?

I've said it once and i'll say it again, I think people that make this argument are just a but soft.
As I've already explained to Jason at More straw man attacks against YECs, why Ross is wrong about gnosticism and carnivory (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=254069&postcount=92) , your sort of compromise didn't work with Templeton, yet OEC Geisler refuted him by using an argument that only works consistently under a YEC view. Strobel, another OEC, clearly endorsed Geisler's argument about vegetarianism being both the original state of animals as well as the state in the restoration.

Socrates
May 9th 2004, 08:35 AM
Please dont tell God what very good is in your opinion. That is a bit cheeky.

Sheesh, more pseudo-pious bunk to justify Kuboes' blatant unbelief in what God has revealed and his faulty trust in man's fallible opinion:

God: "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God ... For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day."[Ex. 20:8-11]

Kuboes: Shh, Lord, I'll explain to the masses what you really meant by the days in Genesis 1.

Similarly, if God tells me that death is "the last enemy", then I will believe Him. Thus I will not claim it's His method of creation or that it was present in a creation He pronounced "very good".

jason
May 9th 2004, 08:42 AM
Oh, of course, God was incapable of controlling that in any other way.
It work beautifully.

Maybe so, for a fallen world. YECs believe that Adam's fall actually made a difference.
Yes I know. It did make a difference.

So you believe there was sickness and aging in the "very good" creation before the Fall?
Part of the natural order. Yes. I just think your being soft having such a problem with it.

More straw man attacks against YECs
Soc go and learn what a strawman argument is before you accuse someone of commiting it.

It cannot be a strawman argument unless it is actually an argument.

It is simply my opinion that you are being drippy and overly sentimental.

It is no more of an argument then, "How can you say that something that is all icky and nasty is 'very good' ".

Thus it cannot be a strawman.

Jason

Socrates
May 9th 2004, 08:45 AM
How much do animals actually suffer ? There always seems to be a lot of drippy sentimentality in these sorts of claims from YEC's.
Another Ross lie. How crazy, since he thinks plants suffer :dufus: And whinge to Geisler and Strobel if you really think so. Ross and his minions definitely know about Strobel's book because they refer to it in their dreadful Scripture-twisting tape series about Death in Eden.

Charleen, the entire OEC movement is driven by modern scientific theory. They didn’t just look as scriptures such as:
:ahem: This is just as much an ad hom.
How is that ad hom? It was a clear statement of fact. If old-earth ideas were in the Bible, how come no one thought of them before deists pushed long-age ideas in geology?

Is there any reason to disregard God's revelation in nature just to appease somebodies wrong headed insistence on one reading of scripture ?
Who disregards anything? Rather, YECs reject uniformitarian interpretations of the data of nature. We also realize that since the creation is cursed, it should be interpreted in the light of the uncursed Scriptures. And if you think that our reading of Scripture is wrong headed, then prove it from the text alone (and make sure your arguments are convincing to real Hebrew scholars such as Gray Pilgrim!).

reyvin
June 14th 2004, 10:46 AM
I'm saying this as politely as possible and praying I do it right.....


Who disregards anything? Rather, YECs reject uniformitarian interpretations of the data of nature.

So why don't you defend the YEC interpretation in the natural science forum?

We also realize that since the creation is cursed, it should be interpreted in the light of the uncursed Scriptures.

Yes, and we also realize that humanity is cursed and so what is to say that your interpretation of uncursed Scripture is on the money?

And if you think that our reading of Scripture is wrong headed, then prove it from the text alone (and make sure your arguments are convincing to real Hebrew scholars such as Gray Pilgrim!).

Holy cow. Ok so, when you find someone knowledgeable in hebrew they're fantastic in your eyes but when someone else equally or even more knowledgeable (think Archer, Sailhamer or Kaiser here), they aren't to get any credit whatsoever? You base this on nothing more than the results shown by said individuals. I'm willing to bet that you judge only when reading the bottom line and only THEN go back and check credentials. Hebrew knowledge aside, how about the church fathers that DIDNT agree (even if it is a minority) with the 24 hour view?

You really need to take a step back from the dogma-cookies.

reyvin
June 20th 2004, 09:59 AM
Holy cow. Ok so, when you find someone knowledgeable in hebrew they're fantastic in your eyes but when someone else equally or even more knowledgeable (think Archer, Sailhamer or Kaiser here), they aren't to get any credit whatsoever?


I should have been a little more explicit here.

Revision: Ok so, when you find someone knowledgeable in hebrew and go with the 24 hour view, they're fantastic in your eyes but when someone else equally or even more knowledgeable (think Archer, Sailhamer or Kaiser here who are not into the AiG viewpoint), they aren't to get any credit whatsoever?

wienerdog
June 22nd 2004, 02:08 PM
is there not something fundamentally disturbing when you witness one of the seemingly infinite clips on the national geographic channel of a lion ripping apart its prey?

i know, i know, its just an opinion...just a "feeling" someone might get, but sometimes the things in nature are a little disturbing...
I do feel disturbed when I see these images. I also feel disgust when I look at slugs or cockroaches. I can't use this sense of disgust to argue that since God created everything "very good," slugs and cockroaches must have come about as a result of the fall.

I've said it once and i'll say it again, I think people that make this argument are just a but soft.
What do you mean by soft? If you're saying that YECs are mentally soft, that is unintelligent, you need to retract this and apologize. You're going to be spending eternity with these people, you might want to try getting along with them now.

reyvin
June 22nd 2004, 03:59 PM
I do feel disturbed when I see these images. I also feel disgust when I look at slugs or cockroaches. I can't use this sense of disgust to argue that since God created everything "very good," slugs and cockroaches must have come about as a result of the fall.

Same goes for pootie and snot. Icky.

What do you mean by soft? If you're saying that YECs are mentally soft, that is unintelligent, you need to retract this and apologize. You're going to be spending eternity with these people, you might want to try getting along with them now.

I'm quite certain he meant in the tender hearted sense, not tender headed.

wienerdog
June 22nd 2004, 04:58 PM
What do you mean by soft? If you're saying that YECs are mentally soft, that is unintelligent, you need to retract this and apologize. You're going to be spending eternity with these people, you might want to try getting along with them now.
I'm quite certain he meant in the tender hearted sense, not tender headed.
OK. I'm not very disturbed by the crime of tender heartedness though.

A Beautiful Truth
June 27th 2004, 11:53 AM
Here is anoter interesting paper on the issue:

http://www.geocities.com/darrickdean/rev2.html

I like Dean's opening:

In part I, some of the questionable teachings, methods and logic of the AIG and ICR were discussed. While the "scientific proofs" for a young-earth have been falling apart (see the main page), leaders of the groups have rallied behind what could be their last "battlefield." The is the popular young-earth “proof” that I call the “death tautology” (“tautology” because it is often repeated over and over as an emotional plea). They state that the bible does not permit physical death before the fall of Adam. Thus, since science "claims" years of dying creatures before Adam, it must be wrong and the universe must be young. Is there any validity to the "no death before Adam" claim?

I think it is difficult for those Christians who have had no death before the fall in their worldview for some time to now have this challenged. It is used to explain to our children why Muffy suffers and why there is disease in the world. But we have the Natural Law Theodicy that handles those objections well. In any case, I can understand the hard time YEC's may have with in abandoning the YE because their view of death in the YE system is intertwined throughout their worldview.

But I think it is wise to increase in learning, even if we are being shown something that contradicts an existing belief.

jhappel
October 6th 2004, 12:50 PM
Hey Brett, sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Yes, you are right, the OEC has to look upon animal death as "very good." And it is in the eye of the beholder, Brett. One sees animal death as terrible, another sees animals death as an intricate way to keep earth's ecology in balance.


This earth was never created to be just like Heaven, but it is the best possible way to get there. Animal death is part of the natural system that keeps earth in balance. That is indeed, "very good"!

You can also argue that human death is part of the natural system that keeps the earth in balance and is 'very good'. Sure this creation is still designed to sustain itself but that doesn't mean that is they way God originally intended it. The issue is what does the Bible say? Does the Bible say animals died over millions of years before man appeared? I think not. I noticed in that article you linked the author failed to cite a single verse that specifically endorsed pre-fall animal death. It did not cite one because it doesn't exist.



Do you see what has happened here. NO longer are we talking scripture, but philosophy. You reject OEC for philosophical reasons because you cannot see the good in carnivorous activity (millions of years of it, too, if the days are long periods of time). "

If interpreting very good as meaning no death of nephesh creatures before the fall as mere philosophy and not proper scriptural hermeneutics than we are talking past each other. If God loves the creatures he creates and yet calls the lion savagely tearing apart a lamb as very good than I'm afraid we worship two different Gods. If such action is something God finds good I don't see why the lion doing the same thing to a human is also something we would approve of either.



Well, if I could find somebody to explain General Relativity to me on my level (not high by any means) should I believe him? No, because General Relativity simply cannot be properly understood on a lower level. It does not mean that it is wrong, it just means that I do not (and probably cannot) understand it.

So you are conceding you can't understand GR and yet later berate YEC's for disregarding science, who like Humphreys, do understand GR?



Well, you are welcome to embrace his work, but people who understand general relativity and very complex math do NOT embrace Humphreys. To me, I don't know why the YECers feel they need to put forth scientific arguments for their position, they disregard science so much, it amazes me. I feel we need to stick to the scriptures when we discuss OE vs. YE.

There are many YEC's who do understand GR and do embrace his work. But if you are appealing to the approval of atheistic physicists than you also must throw out RTB's 'testable' creation model since they reject that to.



I appreciate your kind words, Brett. Thank you for maintaining this attitude. I have considered the YE position. As far as considering YE creation scientists, well, I think we need to just stick with the scriptures and not bring science into it.

Well if OEC is strictly a biblically derived position that you must be able to find someone from the 18th century or before who saw the Bible as teaching that position. I mean God does not deceive when he speaks. If its clear to you and you don't need science to justify your position surely history must be filled with many, pre-uniformitarian geology, Godly scholars that interpreted the Bible like you and Ross. I mean our ancestors were experts on ancient languages and had access to documents that we don't. They were not bothered by such speculations on the the age of the earth as modern scholars today are so they had the freedom to just interpret the Bible as it appeared before them and take the words at face value.

judge
April 3rd 2005, 07:59 PM
Luthers commentary on psalm 90:

"This Psalm reveals in striking fashion that the death of man is in countless ways a far greater calamity than the death of other living beings. Although horses, cows, and all animals die, they do not die because God is angry at them. On the contrary, for them death is, as it were, a sort of temporal casualty, ordained indeed by God but not regarded by Him as punishment. Animals die because for some other reason it seemed good to God that they should die.
But the death of human beings is a genuine disaster. Man's death is in itself truly an infinite and eternal wrath. The reason is that man is a being created for this purpose: to live forever in obedience to the Word of God and to be like God. He was not created for death. In his case death was ordained as a punishment of sin; for God said to Adam: "In the day that you eat of this tree, you shall die" (Genesis 2:17).
The death of human beings is, therefore, not like the death of animals. These die because of a law of nature. Nor is man's death an event which occurs accidentally or has merely an aspect of temporality. On the contrary, man's death, if I may so speak, was threatened by God and is caused by an incensed and estranged God. If Adam had not eaten of the forbidden tree, he would have remained immortal. But because he sinned through disobedience, he succumbs to death like the animals which are subject to him. Originally death was not part of his nature. He dies because he provokes God's wrath. Death is, in his case, the inevitable anddeserved consequence of his sin and disobedience.
Man's death is truly an event sadder and more serious than the slaughter of a cow. This becomes most evident when one takes into account the propagation of evil. Moses says: "Thou causest men to die." "Men" refers to the entire human race. Moses includes in this one word "men" all the offspring of our first parents. Therefore that which was created for life is now destined for death. This is the result of God's wrath. So the entire human race plunged from immortality into eternal death."
Luther's Works: Selected Psalms II, edited by J. Pelican, St. Louis, Concordia, 1965, vol.13, p.94, 95, 96.

Augustine in City of God book 12 chapt 21:

Man, on the other hand, whose nature was to be a mean between the angelic and bestial, He created in such sort, that if he remained in subjection to His Creator as his rightful Lord, and piously kept His commandments, he should pass into the company of the angels, and obtain, without the intervention of death,(1) a blessed and endless immortality; but if he offended the Lord his God by a proud and disobedient use of his free will, he should become subject to death, and live as the beasts do,--the slave of appetite,

http://ccel.org/fathers/NPNF1-02/Augustine/cog/t66.htm#t66.htm.4

lee_merrill
April 3rd 2005, 09:32 PM
Hi everyone,

Isn't there plant death before the fall, though? And doesn't the Bible refer to plants as dying?

Job 14:8 Its roots may grow old in the ground and its stump die in the soil...

Psalm 37:2 For like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.

And doesn't "In the day you eat of it, you will surely die" imply that Adam and Eve knew about death? Now God might not have told them what this meant, or he might have explained it to them, but there also might be an indication here that death was already happening.

Just as "I will greatly increase your pain in childbirth" implies (virtually proves, even) there was pain before the fall, and yet this was "very good." Now pain can have a good result, so I think that fits...

Blessings,
Lee

JimmieBlue
April 5th 2005, 09:11 AM
Something that doesn’t fit though -- was the serpent “very good”?

Genesis 3 (NIV)

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

I've heard people say it was Satan “impersonating”, “disguised as”, “possessing” or “appearing as” a snake.

If I read the above verse literally, then it was a snake. And why was it so “crafty”?

However one looks at it, clearly something NOT “very good” was taking place before the Fall.

lee_merrill
April 5th 2005, 10:51 PM
Something that doesn’t fit though -- was the serpent “very good”? ... However one looks at it, clearly something NOT “very good” was taking place before the Fall.

Well, it could be very good even with the devil doing his worst, though, couldn't it? The devil wasn't very good, but creation could be, "This ship will hold up under the worst of storms."

Blessings,
Lee

JimmieBlue
April 6th 2005, 02:50 AM
Well, it could be very good even with the devil doing his worst, though, couldn't it?

Agreed.

My point though was that deception (not very good) was ocurring within creation prior to the Fall. If the source/agent of that deception is not part of creation, then your point holds.