Should a Christian ever enter into marriage with a non-Christian?

[Socrates]

Answer, obviously not. The Apostle Paul commanded, and it has application to marriage:

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?
However, once the marriage is entered into, or in the case of one spouse converting, the believer is not to leave (1 Cor. 7)


12 To the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.
13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy.
15 But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace.

This explains this part of another thread:


Lazy Agnostic:
On the topic of Abortion, my wife (who is a sweetly devout Christian and a kindly, persuasive voice for faith in Jesus)

Socrates:
I appreciate your honesty in saying so. All the same, it does seem strange, because the Apostle Paul explicitly commands that believers should not become unequally yoked with unbelievers. But if she converted after marriage, then Paul said that the believing spouse should not leave.

LA replied:
So are you declaring my wife is not a Christian? That's not what I said. I merely pointed out that by entering into a marriage with you she was acting in disobedience. So while she may well be saved, she has no credence as a Christian witness.An excellent reason why the Founders intended to remove the reins of power from religionists. You know naught of what you speak, and you're a Yank so should have no excuse, unlike an Australian like me. The Founders actually wanted to make sure that Congress would not favor one denomination and restrict others, since most of their ancestors were trying to escape from State Church persecution. The founders had no interest in restricting individual opinions like mine. My wife declares that I am more honorable than any Christian she's known---not that that is any great distinction, mind you, Yeah, says more about the Christians she's known. Especially if they weren't honest enough to believe their own book and discourage her from disobeying God's command through the Apostle Paul. ... but it indicates the level of her regard. She believes God brought us together. I'm not interested in what she believes, since I follow the Noble Bereans of Acts 17:11 and check out everything with Scripture. I am surely blessed to have her be my mate. I hope this will be the case. But while far too many Christian women (I'll give your wife the benefit of the doubt) think they should get into "missionary dating" and even marrying non-Christians in the hope that they will win them over. But they fail to realise that by disobeying their own book, they have already lessened their credibility with the one they hope to win.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Yesterday @ 12:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42959#post42959)
Socrates:

So while she may well be saved, she has no credence as a Christian witness. My wife believes that God is the sole judge of her credibility as a Christian.

[Socrates]

That's an interesting account of what your wife believes. But I, following the "noble Bereans" of Acts 17:11, would like to know how she can back this up from Scripture, which Jesus said "cannot be broken" (John 10:35).

[Jin-Roh]

My wife believes that God is the sole judge of her credibility as a Christian.

Well, God's will is usually revealed through his word. We can't offer excuses ("I didn't know God") if we violate it. Psalm 119 is the longest out of 150, and its a complete dedication to God's word. In other words, honoring God means honoring his word.

Its not like its socrates opinion verses your wife here, its a "thus saith the Lord" issue. All poltics aside. It was nothing to do with church/state.

I have kept my feet from every evil path
so that I might obey your word.
I have not departed from your laws,
for you yourself have taught me.
How sweet are your words to my taste,
sweeter than honey to my mouth!
I gain understanding from your precepts;
therefore I hate every wrong path.

Psalm 119:101-104

Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

James 1:23-25

[Lazy Agnostic]

So, are you two implying that you do not sin?

[Socrates]

LA:So, are you two implying that you do not sin?How on earth can anyone reasonably imply that we were. The point is, how can a Christian justify marrying a non-Christian? Sure, it's a forgivable sin but it still requires acknowledging as sin. Claiming "God is the sole judge of her credibility as a Christian" is a cop-out, because God HAS already judged this by His written word.

[Rahab]

Hello Socrates... it appears based on the Gospel of Matthew that Christ's concern with a proper witness as one who claims to be a christian is to do unto others as we do for Him. He confirms how He will separate the "sheep" from the "goats" based on the willingness for the human heart to display love and goodness (and He gives specifics) to others. At no time does He mention that this crucial witness is in jeopardy because of not complying with the law. I wonder how you can reconcile your evaluation that a believer who chooses to marry a non believer has no creedence as a christian witness, if that believer is indeed willing and seeking to bestow on others what Christ values as a character which makes that person a "sheep" rather than a "goat".
In essence, as a christian, my focus is to understand how Christ wants me to witness His Love to others. Love seems to be the leading argument in Christ's discourse. My claim to be a christian can only be validated by my willingness to extend the love I have for my Savior to the rest of mankind.
I think it is prudent for any christian to not judge or evaluate the witness of another christian based on what Paul "commands" to do or not to do. It all depends if the focus is to represent Christ to mankind through His Character of Love or to pertain to live "by the law".....
IYO or conviction Socrates... which witness will move the heart of a non believer... one which projects the ability to expand the love of Christ or one which projects self rigtheousness? considering we have no rigtheousness but in Christ alone....
Looking forward to your answer.
In Christ, Veronique.

[Socrates]

Veronique

Christ gave authority to all His apostles -- in the same Gospel of Matthew in fact (16:19 and 18:18). And the last Apostle Christ chose was Paul. Loving Jesus meant obeying His commandments and by extension those of the Apostles He gave authority to (John 14:15). Paul's writings are part of the "Law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2) or the "Law of the Spirit of Life" (Romans 8:2) which is binding today.

So once again, how can flagrant disobedience of Paul's command be a good witness? It could give the impression that the Christian obeys only the Christian commands that suit her. And it also gives her future children a less-than-ideal family environment where one parent is an unbeliever.

And if you don't think Paul really commanded Christians not to marry unbelievers (which the whole tenor of Scripture affirms), then I'd be interested in what you think the passage really means.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 01:06 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44393#post44393)
Socrates:

LA:So, are you two implying that you do not sin?How on earth can anyone reasonably imply that we were. The point is, how can a Christian justify marrying a non-Christian? Sure, it's a forgivable sin but it still requires acknowledging as sin. Claiming "God is the sole judge of her credibility as a Christian" is a cop-out, because God HAS already judged this by His written word.
My inference was based on this: You claimed my wife's sin of marrying me left her with "...no credence as a Christian witness."

I also infer that you consider yourself a credible witness.

Unless being "unequally yolked" is the only criterion which affects credibility, I assumed you think you do not sin.

[Snowball]

Today @ 08:52 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44510#post44510)
Lazy Agnostic:


My inference was based on this: You claimed my wife's sin of marrying me left her with "...no credence as a Christian witness."

I also infer that you consider yourself a credible witness.

Unless being "unequally yolked" is the only criterion which affects credibility, I assumed you think you do not sin.

I think the big question is...does your wife realize that she went against the word of God by marrying you? If so, she should ask God for forgiveness, admit her error, and get on with it. Her witness is only damaged insofar as she is not admitting her error. If she doesn't know..well, that isn't an excuse because as a Christian, knowing and understanding God's word should be of paramount importance in her life.

If she doesn't care that she disobeyed God and is making excuses for her behavior, then we have every right to question whether she is truly a Christian, for Jesus said that we will show our love for Him through our obedience.

We all have sinned, but as Christians we seek to turn from our sin and repent when we know we've done wrong.

[TenDimensions]

03-23-2003 @ 12:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42959#post42959)
Socrates:
LA replied:
[list]An excellent reason why the Founders intended to remove the reins of power from religionists. You know naught of what you speak, and you're a Yank so should have no excuse, unlike an Australian like me. The Founders actually wanted to make sure that Congress would not favor one denomination and restrict others, since most of their ancestors were trying to escape from State Church persecution. The founders had no interest in restricting individual opinions like mine.

Do you realize you just talked right past LA? He specifically stated "the reigns of power" not restrict opinions of narrow-minded, freakishly devout, religious citizens.

Not only did they guarantee freedom of ALL religions, but they knew that to allow a country to be ruled by religionists was to allow for dogmatic, narrow-minded, "my way or the highway" type of governing. And so they created the total separation of Church and State in an attempt to prevent the country from being ruled by people who "spoke for God's wishes" - they were smart enough to know that no one can present a logical argument against someone claiming to be speaking for God's wishes, hence they established a secular government back by no one's God.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 09:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44526#post44526)
Snowball:



I think the big question is...does your wife realize that she went against the word of God by marrying you? If so, she should ask God for forgiveness, admit her error, and get on with it.
She has.

[Snowball]

Today @ 10:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44535#post44535)
Lazy Agnostic:


She has.

That should be the end of it then.

[Woman]

Soc - done!

:cheers:

[Socrates]

Woman:
Done too :cheers: This post will self-destruct within 12 hours :rofl:

[Rahab]

03-25-2003 @ 02:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44526#post44526)
Snowball:



I think the big question is...does your wife realize that she went against the word of God by marrying you? If so, she should ask God for forgiveness, admit her error, and get on with it. Her witness is only damaged insofar as she is not admitting her error. If she doesn't know..well, that isn't an excuse because as a Christian, knowing and understanding God's word should be of paramount importance in her life.

If she doesn't care that she disobeyed God and is making excuses for her behavior, then we have every right to question whether she is truly a Christian, for Jesus said that we will show our love for Him through our obedience.

We all have sinned, but as Christians we seek to turn from our sin and repent when we know we've done wrong.
Hello Snowball...

I have some concern as to the " we have every right to question whether she is truly a christian". Does the " we" stand for you and God or the rest of christianity? Here is the dilemna as we pertain as christians to make that judgement on whether someone is " truly a christian".... if we base it on obedience to God's Word , we are all in default of His Word.... not one christian can claim to be obedient to all the laws prescribed in both the Old and New Testament. I can also spend my time evaluating where any other christian fails to be obedient to His Word and question his or her faith. However...that is not Christ's mission for me personaly. It may be yours to question the faith of other believers in Christ....but insure that you are beyong reproach so you may not be judged by God.
When Christ refers to loving Him by obeying his commandments, I understand it to be thru what He considers to be the most important commandments given by Him not by any other party... Love the Lord God and then love your neighbor. Christ's message to us is to entice ond motivate our hearts to apply to others what we would apply to Him. Faith cannot be efficient or authentic without relating to others in the same loving claims we have for Him. That is what I consider to be His lead in my life.
As far as evaluating other christians' faith based on the ability to abide to all laws ever prescribed in both the Old and New Testaments, I certainly do not pertain to do so. Neither did Christ. Being God Himself He has the unique ability to see thru the heart and mind of each human being. He can examine the state of heart and mind of each person and work in them to lead them where He knows they should be. That is all done thru the Holy Spirit.
Jesus challenged us to examine our motivations... as He questionned how religious leaders would apply any law blindly. His " breaking " the Sabbath is a demonstration of how we cannot ever claim to be in right standing with God thru the law but we need to consider the productivity of our faith and let God do His Work thru us as He needs for us to.
If your evaluation of whether a christian is a true christian is indeed based on obedience to the law, then I must ask you which laws do you consider to still be valid today and which ones do you consider not applicable? and on which criteria? will you doubt the authenticity of the faith of a woman who will cut her hair or wear breads? what if she chooses to not wear a head cover during her prayer time?
If I can relate to Socrates'exortation to confession to God of our errors and desobedience, I absolutly cannot relate to your statement on how to evaluate whether someone is a "true christian".
Considering also that we are being transformed by the Holy Spirit of God continuously, that is a very limiting way for anyone to judge the faith of another believer.
Legalism ( IMO) has been a wall between God and mankind. Christ's message redirects us to actions from the heart and a heart softened by the very Spirit of God.
If you truly consider that you can doubt the faith of a person who chose to marry a non believer, then you probably doubt the faith of any other believer. And the beam in your eye may never be removed as a result of your focus on other christians's failures to abide to any biblical laws. I do not mean to be offensive but that is a reality.
In Christ, Veronique.

[Snowball]

Today @ 07:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=47672#post47672)
Rahab:
Hello Snowball...

I have some concern as to the " we have every right to question whether she is truly a christian". Does the " we" stand for you and God or the rest of christianity? Here is the dilemna as we pertain as christians to make that judgement on whether someone is "truly a christian".... if we base it on obedience to God's Word , we are all in default of His Word.... <snipped for space>

Veronique,

I can't say this better than Gregory Koukl does here: <url>http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/other/kn_as_tr.htm</url>

I hope after reading this essay you'll have a better idea of what I meant.

[Socrates]

Rahab

Snowball is totally correct. There is a difference between sinning, which all believers do, and CONTINUING to sin, which believers should not. 1 John makes this distinction:

1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ...

3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Anyway, LA's wife has realised her mistake, so that can be put behind her. However, while being forgiven for the mistake, she may have to bear the consequences of bearing children with an anti-Christian father, and that should be a lesson to other women contemplating the same disobedience.

[Woman]

I originally stuck my nose in here and voiced the opinion that even asking this question was a self-righteous, high-handed act. Then Soc called me on it saying that I was in the Theology forum and needed to address my remarks on the law not emotion. (or words to that effect)

I apologized and removed my post. But now, as I see I am not alone in my assessment of this situation, I've changed my mind about whether I can rightfully voice my objections here.

Why oh why can't fundamentalists realize the damage they do to other people's feelings, to the faith and to God when they pontificate? How can you in good conscience say that someone is or is not a "good Christian" or a "good witness?" The simple truth is, you cannot. You can, at most, observe that someone has done/is doing something that is counter to scripture. You know, the kind of stuff you do every day you draw breath...

But here's the thing. What is it that you hope to accomplish by calling someone's wife a bad witness? She is already married. You have already stated, Socrates, that to leave her husband would be wrong. So, what would you have her do? She is fully aware of her state of grace or lack thereof. What does your disdain do that is good and loving? Nothing!

I know you have a penchant for hellfire and brimstone, for not sparing the rod. I know you think that pacifists are wimps. But I cannot believe that Christ wishes for you to waste your fine mind on throwing tantrums at atheists, agnostics, and a majority of your Christian brethren. Do you honestly think that this is God's work? What are you accomplishing? You have stopped judging long enough to point me to some good reading and I appreciate it. I have also come to respect your integrity as a man. But this wrath of God scenario just puts people off. Are you truly in a state of Grace yourself? Are you a good witness?

Oh, question. How does Paul's self proclaimed apostlehood, which he takes to mean that he can give "commandments" to the world make him so influencial? He never met Christ. He's clearly unaware of many of Christ's words and deeds. Aside from the fact that he grabbed the ball and ran and was so prolific in his letter writing, where does his authority come from?

[Socrates]

Woman:
I originally stuck my nose in here and voiced the opinion that even asking this question was a self-righteous, high-handed act. Then Soc called me on it saying that I was in the Theology forum and needed to address my remarks on the law not emotion. (or words to that effect).And that I was presupposing that a Christian believed the Bible. If you are not a Christian and don't like the Bible, what do you care?? Please re-read the thread title, and as the thread starter I have the right to keep this thread on track. One could argue that it's a pretty "self-righteous, high-handed act" to butt in while not agreeing with the underlying presuppositions behind this question.I apologized and removed my post. But now, as I see I am not alone in my assessment of this situation, I've changed my mind about whether I can rightfully voice my objections here. Then please would you change your mind back?Why oh why can't fundamentalists realize the damage they do to other people's feelings, to the faith and to God when they pontificate? Why oh why can't compromisers realize the damage they do to other people's feelings, to the faith and to God when they pontificate that God's word is not completely accurate on everything it touches upon??How can you in good conscience say that someone is or is not a "good Christian" or a "good witness?" The simple truth is, you cannot. You can, at most, observe that someone has done/is doing something that is counter to scripture. You know, the kind of stuff you do every day you draw breath...Please re-read my last post, about the difference between sinning and persisting in sin.But here's the thing. What is it that you hope to accomplish by calling someone's wife a bad witness?Because LA was touting his wife as a good witness. And because it really was a bad witness to unequally yoke with an unbeliever, as she now realises. She is already married. You have already stated, Socrates, that to leave her husband would be wrong. So, what would you have her do? What she has done -- admit her mistake and move on, and try to be the best wife possible. And try her best to bring up any children in Christianity despite the objections of LA, and caution them against the same mistake. She is fully aware of her state of grace or lack thereof. What does your disdain do that is good and loving? Nothing!Already explained. And it illustrates that compromise in the Bible's history leads to compromises in Biblical morality too. Mrs LA has realised her mistake, while Mrs RA has not, it seems, which makes me doubt whether she is a Christian at all.I know you have a penchant for hellfire and brimstone, I don't think I've mentioned this very much. But the one who did so most in the Bible was NOT Paul but Jesus! for not sparing the rod.I can't recall having venturing an opinion on child discipline. But the days when corporal punishment was allowed in schools were also the days when teachers thought that the worst problems they faced were chewing gum and talking in class; not guns, drugs, knives and drugs! I know you think that pacifists are wimps.Yes. And they are not to be confused with "peacemakers". The Chamberlainite pacifists did not resist evil, so we got WW2. The current crop of appeaseniks did not finish off Saddam the first time, and betrayed the local resistance by encouraging them to revolt then abandoning them. And now we have a war which is going to be messy. But even this is better than allowing Saddam to kill more of his own people and find Palestinian suicide bombers. The Iraqi exiles here have formed PRO-war demonstrations but this is hardly ever reported by the leftist media.

Applied to the spiritual warfare (2 Cor. 10:4-5), the WFJs have stood by while the liberals take over the ceremonies, and they quickly show that there's no one as illiberal as a liberal in power. E.g. while they are in the minority they appeal for tolerance of their vile heresies such as denying the Resurrection. But when they took over, they defrocked the top scholar and evangelical Gresham Machen.

WFJs have also let secular humanism dominate the education system and media. So now Christianity is frequently denigrated with such viciousness that would never be tolerated if the same language were used of Jews, Moslems, homosexuals, etc.

WFJs have retreated into a shell of false piety, swallowing the myth the faith is compartmentalised separately from the real world. This has let the humanists take over the important institutions. And now the WFJs rail only against Christians who take a strong stand about tearing down anti-Christian arguments (1 Cor. 10:5), probably because this exposes the shortcomings of the WFJs.But I cannot believe that Christ wishes for you to waste your fine mind on throwing tantrums at atheists, agnostics, and a majority of your Christian brethren. Some question-begging here, and also an absence of proof from Christ himself.Do you honestly think that this is God's work? What are you accomplishing? You have stopped judging long enough to point me to some good reading and I appreciate it. I have also come to respect your integrity as a man. Thanx for those kinds words anyway :yipee: And I commend you for reading some of that AiG literature without fulminating that it's all lies, as tgamble and his ilk do.But this wrath of God scenario just puts people off. But other people are encouraged, so diff'rent strokes ...Are you truly in a state of Grace yourself? Are you a good witness?Some would say so, although there is always room for improvement.Oh, question. How does Paul's self proclaimed apostlehood, which he takes to mean that he can give "commandments" to the world make him so influencial? He never met Christ. [list]Christ met him! On the road to Damascus. And the chief apostle Peter became convinced that Paul's writings were Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16).[list]He's clearly unaware of many of Christ's words and deeds.This is not so as Rev. Dr Peter Barnes shows in his book The Gospel: Did Paul and Jesus agree? I've pointed out elsewhere that Paul was even careful to distinguish between his (still authoritative) teachings and words of Christ that He spoke while on Earth (1 Cor. 7). What Paul did not mention was not germane to his corrective letters to churches. Aside from the fact that he grabbed the ball and ran and was so prolific in his letter writing, where does his authority come from? It would be worth reading the beginning of his letters where he answers that very question.

It's ironic though, and I've pointed this out to RogerThomas too -- some of the harshest denunciations of opponents comes not from Paul but from Christ. And I've pointed out that Christ used fire and brimstone preaching more than anyone else.

[Woman]

Hey Soc,

I know that Christ also did his share of hellfire and brimstone preaching. But, would exegesis come to play here? the oratorical style then was what we would now consider "over the top."

Also, didn't Jesus instruct in different ways depending on his audience?

**grumbling***

Thanks to you I'm reading the Bible more than my stack of fiction.

:brow:

[Socrates]

Woman:I know that Christ also did his share of hellfire and brimstone preaching. But, would exegesis come to play here? the oratorical style then was what we would now consider "over the top."I would rather say that the challenge/ripost paradigm (http://www.tektonics.org/madmad.html) is the way it SHOULD be, allowing robust debate and leading towards the truth. Rather, it is the modern western-humanist victim culture that's "under the bottom". They have redefined "toleration" from meaning "I don't like or agree with you but you're free to believe it" to "there is no absolute truth so we must regard all views as equally TRUE (except the view that there IS absolute truth!)". And of course, this means that such modern "toleration" groups" are very INtolerant of Biblical Christianity!Thanks to you I'm reading the Bible more than my stack of fiction.That alone has made my time here worthwhile :yipee:

[Rahab]

Socrates and all... I happen to be LA's wife and frankly I am really concerned to see so many assumptions made in this thread.

The worst assumption is made that LA would oppose to our children following in their mother's path. What kind of stereotype is that? Do you believe that all freethinkers lack the intelligence to respect their children's choices to a particular spiritual path?

I have unfortunatly seen the opposite happen when a christian spouse hammers her or his religion over the children without giving them the opportunity to make a choice. Which often results in rebellion on the part of the children. I have 3 children from my previous marriage. 18, 15 and 11. None of them were ever forced to abide to one religion or the other or none. The seeds that were planted through me are presently watered and nurtered by the Holy Spirit and none other. Not only does my agnostic husband encourage me in my faith but he also encourages my children in theirs. We have enough mutual respect and love to avoid spiritual battles over the minds of those children.

I formally disagree with the concept that a mixed couple will automaticaly engender negative consequences. It is prudent and wise to not stereotype or generalize. I agree with Woman that fundamentalists spend way too much time chastising the rest of mankind rather than doing what Christ has commanded them to do.

I have no doubt that my witness is unsatisfactory to many christians....however, it does not occur among those who do not know Christ---the ones who need to be reached through our willingness to show empathy and acceptance of their condition.

The Bible is too often used as a weapon...when it is to be used to promote healing and redemption.

I deeply deplore the need to judge the brethren and point fingers in all directions. None of us is in any position to judge. Assertions concerning authenticity of another's faith are only assertions; only God can evaluate the motives and intent of the human heart.

The Grace received on a daily basis, we are to apply to all. We either endorse the claim of humility in front of God by recognising our imperfection or we continue to boast "I am a christian because I do no wrong and I never sin"...exhibiting self rigtheousness.

We cannot, I repeat, we cannot judge. The very words of Jesus are clear on that topic. They are clear when it comes to working on our own beam rather than picking on the speck in the brother's eye.

I consider my marriage to be blessed by God, as He picked me up from the dust and rescued me from stoning mobs and freed me with simple words "Go and sin no more". I am extremely thankful to be the spouse of a man who displays more generosity and compassion to mankind than so many of my fellow christians do.

It is a sad reality I experienced so many times, as I watched some of them drift from the message of love and grace Christ has so brilliantly demonstrated and modeled for us to follow.

I have seen wounds inflicted by sheep on other sheep. I have seen the desire to punish rather than edify; I have seen the lack of Grace. I have seen the fear to touch the "untouchable"...the rejection of the "outcast"... the condemnation of so many human beings who are equaly loved by God.

Do you honestly believe, Socrates and Snowball, that an unsaved person will care whether or not any of us is married to a non-believer, as God uses us to bring relief and healing in his or her life? Do you think that is a criterion for the needy and the "lesser of these"?

Not if you have ever been the needy one or the "lesser of these".

I work with and for individuals who are home bound; some are terminaly ill. They could not care less if I were married to a muslim, a buddist or anyone. What they care about is what motivates me to nurture them in their physical and mental pain.

When asked about the reason for my gentle touch on their suffering bodies, or my determination to relieve their mental distress and validate each of them as a unique and beautiful person, only then do I share my faith. My witness will never be a verbal justification of my so called righteousness.

That is not Christ's call for me.

I think I am done with this thread. It is my hope, though, that we can all refocus on what we are to do in this life, here and now, to represent the character of God through Jesus---not an aura made up by us so we may elevate ourselves above others....not one we can use to justify our disdain and indifference for the "lesser of these"...but truly the character of God as demonstrated by Christ and Christ only.

In Christ,
Veronique.

[Snowball]

Yesterday @ 08:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=48894#post48894)
Rahab:

The worst assumption is made that LA would oppose to our children following in their mother's path. What kind of stereotype is that? Do you believe that all freethinkers lack the intelligence to respect their children's choices to a particular spiritual path?

It really doesn't matter what LA specifically objects to or doesn't. The fact of the matter is that according to God you are unequally yoked, and that will, if you are truly a Christian, cause friction in your marriage and family. Is that my judgement? No, it's God's judgement -- for he says so in His word.


I have unfortunatly seen the opposite happen when a christian spouse hammers her or his religion over the children without giving them the opportunity to make a choice.

The decision to confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior cannot be forced upon someone, it is always a choice. Just thought you should know that.


I formally disagree with the concept that a mixed couple will automaticaly engender negative consequences.


So, you formally disagree with God's word?


It is prudent and wise to not stereotype or generalize.


I'm sure God's taking your advice very seriously.


I agree with Woman that fundamentalists spend way too much time chastising the rest of mankind rather than doing what Christ has commanded them to do.

Jesus specifically gave us instructions for recognizing other believers -- do you belive we should disregard these instructions? Do I need to cite chapter and verse? I'm assuming that, as a Christian, you know where they are.


The Bible is too often used as a weapon...when it is to be used to promote healing and redemption.

The Bible should be used to get to know God and His will -- it is, after all, his way of revealing Himself to us.


I deeply deplore the need to judge the brethren and point fingers in all directions. None of us is in any position to judge. Assertions concerning authenticity of another's faith are only assertions;

So, just to be perfectly clear -- you are saying we should disregard Jesus' instructions in this matter?


only God can evaluate the motives and intent of the human heart.

True. Which is why He is the one who gave us some clues to look for.


"I am a christian because I do no wrong and I never sin"...exhibiting self rigtheousness.

Who is saying this? Where in my posts have you seen me displaying this "holier than thou" attitude? I will fully admit to being just as sinful as everyone else -- if I didn't I wouldn't be a Christian, for being a Christian only follows from a true understanding of who you truly are compared to who God truly is.


We cannot, I repeat, we cannot judge. The very words of Jesus are clear on that topic. They are clear when it comes to working on our own beam rather than picking on the speck in the brother's eye.

Did you bother to read the link I provided in my previous post? I sincerely doubt it. You seem so confident in your assertion of what Jesus said, yet your post seems to display a definite lack of biblical knowledge.


I consider my marriage to be blessed by God,

You consider your marriage to be blessed by Him even though you clearly circumvented his will by marrying an unbeliever?


I am extremely thankful to be the spouse of a man who displays more generosity and compassion to mankind than so many of my fellow christians do.

I'm not sure you know how to recognize a fellow Christian, as you seem to be ignorant of Jesus' words regarding this. Perhaps your fellow Christians aren't really Christians? It seems that the word "Christian" has lost all meaning in Western society, as most people who wouldn't know the first thing about Jesus and the Bible consider themselves to be Christians.


I have seen wounds inflicted by sheep on other sheep. I have seen the desire to punish rather than edify; I have seen the lack of Grace. I have seen the fear to touch the "untouchable"...the rejection of the "outcast"... the condemnation of so many human beings who are equaly loved by God.

I guess I am fortunate in that I have witnessed the exact opposite from Christians in my church and social circle. I fully agree that we need to extend grace to our brothers and sisters in Christ...how do you determine that they are your brothers and sisters again??? I know how I do, but I'm curious as to how you do.


Do you honestly believe, Socrates and Snowball, that an unsaved person will care whether or not any of us is married to a non-believer, as God uses us to bring relief and healing in his or her life?

No, an unbeliever won't care -- but God does, and that's all that matters to me.


When asked about the reason for my gentle touch on their suffering bodies, or my determination to relieve their mental distress and validate each of them as a unique and beautiful person, only then do I share my faith. My witness will never be a verbal justification of my so called righteousness.

That is not Christ's call for me.

With no disrespect, for I admire what you do for a living, but what if they don't ask? Do you love them straight into hell? Christ's words, to ALL of us, were "go therefore, and make disciples of all men." It is called The Great Commission, and quite frankly I'm apalled that you don't think that is His call to you.

[Socrates]

Snowball correctly went to the crux of the matter:

I think the big question is...does your wife realize that she went against the word of God by marrying you? If so, she should ask God for forgiveness, admit her error, and get on with it.

Then LA replied:

She has.But then it turns out that this is not so, because Rahab turns out to be Mrs LA, and STILL tries to justify her disobedience to Paul's explicit command. And we STILL haven't seen any exegetical explanation of why Mrs LA thinks that this command didn't apply to her, or didn't mean what Snowball and I think (that's if Rahab even shares Peter's belief that Paul's writings were Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16).

And LA not just an "ordinary" unbeliever but one who goes out of his way to oppose Christianity on debate boards.

Usually Rhab resorts to the tu quoque fallacy "you sin too, so don't expose my sin," not that either Snowball or I have ever claimed to be sinless.

Rahab also said:I consider my marriage to be blessed by God, as He picked me up from the dust and rescued me from stoning mobs and freed me with simple words "Go and sin no more". But to make the pericope adulterae match Rahab's situation, the adulteress would have to reply, at least to the sinful people if not to Jesus, "Actually there was nothing wrong with what I did and you can't judge me because you're not perfect."The Bible is too often used as a weapon...when it is to be used to promote healing and redemption.How can it promote healing or redemption if people can treat it like a restaurant menu, picking and choosing the parts they believe?None of us is in any position to judge.
...
We cannot, I repeat, we cannot judge. The very words of Jesus are clear on that topic.Yes they are, but not in the way Rahab thinks! In John 7:24, Jesus says:

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

Jesus condemned only HYPOCRITICAL judgment, but as shown above, he COMMANDED us to judge righteously. Since neither Snowball nor I have married unbelievers, there is nothing hypocritical about explained why the Bible says this is wrong.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Well, I think you know what you can do with your Scarlet Letter.

I wish to see Christianity rescued from pontificating pedantic pharisees who seem to think they can improve the words of Scripture with their own---and thus abrogate responsibilty to set aside ego and go do noble things for the Poor, the Sick, and the Stupid.

Reach, not preach.

I worked with two sweet older Christian women who assumed I was Christian---because of my comportment [not because I surround myself with people to suck energy from by finding every opportunity to mention my faith and lay hints about how "close to the Lord" I am; as many do].

They didn't know I was not a "believer" because I have no need to wear it on my sleeve; neither did they. After awhile, when they got to know me, the subject came up.

One lady later said "I'm beginning to rethink some things because there is no way God is going to send you to hell."

I don't need to show you "no stinking badges"...but if I did, that would be a right shiny one. N'est-ce pas?

Well, Snowball and Socrates, you may believe you are "closer to the Lord" than my wife---but I doubt you're crowding Him any.

[Snowball]

Today @ 09:32 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49355#post49355)
Lazy Agnostic:

Well, I think you know what you can do with your Scarlet Letter.


Right. As Christians, we should all just pat each other on the back and say -- yes dear, you're right, God's word doesn't apply to you in this situation. Oh no wait! The Bible calls us to confront unrepentent sinners!



I wish to see Christianity rescued from pontificating pedantic pharisees who seem to think they can improve the words of Scripture with their own---and thus abrogate responsibilty to set aside ego and go do noble things for the Poor, the Sick, and the Stupid.

Reach, not preach.


Since you are not a Christian, I find your wish to be disingenuous. I don't seek to improve the words of scripture, I seek to understand them and therefore understand God and His perfect will. Not that you or your wife would know anything about that. Charity work is wonderful, but does nothing to spread the good news if we don't open our mouths and let our lights shine before men. Like I said - your wife is loving people right into hell, which I don't think is all that loving.


I worked with two sweet older Christian women who assumed I was Christian---because of my comportment [not because I surround myself with people to suck energy from by finding every opportunity to mention my faith and lay hints about how "close to the Lord" I am; as many do].


True Christians don't need to lay hints about "how close to the Lord they are," for it shines through in everything they say and do. True Christians can't help but talk about Jesus and what He did for them, they want to shout it from the rooftops in an effort to get everyone to share in His incredible gift. That is love.


They didn't know I was not a "believer" because I have no need to wear it on my sleeve; neither did they. After awhile, when they got to know me, the subject came up.

I know you are trying to make me think you are a good person. I never said you weren't, nor do I care. I know atheists, agnostics, Jews, etc. that are all very good and compassionate people. Being a good person isn't what earns you a ticket to heaven though.


One lady later said "I'm beginning to rethink some things because there is no way God is going to send you to hell."

Well, if doing good deeds could get you into heaven, perhaps you'd be in line RA -- but they don't. All our good deeds are like filthy rags before the throne of the living God without the shed blood of Jesus.


I don't need to show you "no stinking badges"...but if I did that would be a right shiny one. N'est-ce pas?


If you want to persist in your belief that God will let you into heaven because you did some good deeds, go ahead. The Bible quite clearly says differently.


Well, Snowball and Socrates, you may believe you are "closer to the Lord" than my wife---but I doubt you're crowding Him any.

The only thing I know is that I apparently know the Bible better than your wife, which just means I know God's will better than she does. If she doesn't want to know Him on His terms, fine, she can continue to pick and choose what she likes and what she doesn't -- she'll have to answer to Him for that someday.

As far as being "closer" to Him -- well, the more I learn from the Bible, the more I realize how far away from Him I am. That is a good thing, for it keeps me aware of what He's done for me.

Knowing scripture is the key to knowing God.

[Lazy Agnostic]

"...they want to shout it from the rooftops in an effort to get everyone to share in His incredible gift. That is love."

No, dear, in most settings that would be considered rude and neurotic.

If you can't go a few days without giving in to a compulsion to verbalize something about your "faith", then it's no longer faith we're talking about.

The "sense of Coming Home" which is imparted by an egoless embrace of faith has been stolen by the pharisees of Christianity who would have you believe you must indulge in their particular brand of bible idolatry to experience it. Rather than teaching humility and love as Jesus did, they have you identifying culprits and repeating slogans in an effort to evoke the endogenous euphorpia of fanatics; letting you believe you must return to them again and again to restoke the fire.

Some of you expend so much personal energy to find that "sense of Coming Home" which you experience for only moments-at-a-time and, sadly, only years apart.

The balance of Creation [and your "salvation"] does not depend upon you being able to accurately describe it at any given moment; what you think you know is not important.

If you believe the debt has been paid, then learn to gently push aside your ego and go do what Jesus taught...as if they were Jesus in disguise. It is not "us against them".

"Be still...and know that I am."

[Snowball]

A man who is walking in darkness tries to tell a Christian what Christianity is about. This is priceless.


Today @ 02:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49550#post49550)
Lazy Agnostic:

I said:"...they want to shout it from the rooftops in an effort to get everyone to share in His incredible gift. That is love."

LA said:No, dear, in most settings that would be considered rude and neurotic.

If you can't go a few days without giving in to a compulsion to verbalize something about your "faith", then it's no longer faith we're talking about.


Faith in Jesus Christ is putting your trust in Him and declaring Him the Lord of your life. When someone puts their faith in Jesus, it literally oozes from them in thought, word, and deed. I refuse to cower to your postmodern "don't offend anybody, all opinions are equally true and valid" viewpoint. What is rude is letting someone persist in their false world-view, standing by and doing nothing while they are literally perishing before your eyes. That may not bother your wife (and it certainly shouldn't bother a non believer like you), but it bothers me.


The "sense of Coming Home" which is imparted by an egoless embrace of faith has been stolen by the pharisees of Christianity who would have you believe you must indulge in their particular brand of bible idolatry to experience it. Rather than teaching humility and love as Jesus did, they have you identifying culprits and repeating slogans in an effort to evoke the endogenous euphorpia of fanatics; letting you believe you must return to them again and again to restoke the fire.

Some of you expend so much personal energy to find that "sense of Coming Home" which you experience for only moments-at-a-time and, sadly, only years apart.

The balance of Creation [and your "salvation"] does not depend upon you being able to accurately describe it at any given moment; what you think you know is not important.

If you believe the debt has been paid, then learn to gently push aside your ego and go do what Jesus taught...as if they were Jesus in disguise. It is not "us against them".

"Be still...and know that I am."

I am doing what Jesus taught, you are just too biblically illiterate to recognize it! The rest of your rantings about "coming home" sounds like new age garbage to me, so you may want to save that for someone else.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 05:15 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49712#post49712)
Snowball:

A man who is walking in darkness tries to tell a Christian what Christianity is about. This is priceless.

Faith in Jesus Christ is putting your trust in Him and declaring Him the Lord of your life. When someone puts their faith in Jesus, it literally oozes from them in thought, word, and deed. I refuse to cower to your postmodern &quot;don't offend anybody, all opinions are equally true and valid&quot; viewpoint. What is rude is letting someone persist in their false world-view, standing by and doing nothing while they are literally perishing before your eyes. That may not bother your wife (and it certainly shouldn't bother a non believer like you), but it bothers me.

I am doing what Jesus taught, you are just too biblically illiterate to recognize it! The rest of your rantings about &quot;coming home&quot; sounds like new age garbage to me, so you may want to save that for someone else.

...and here we see the reason why the Founders wisely chose to remove the reins of power from the oozing hands of religionists. Thank God this is not a Christian Country; thank God for the Wall of Separation.

Dear Jesus, protect me from your followers.

FYI: You mean "virtually" not "literally" oozing.

[Rahab]

Snowball... It is sad to see how you twisted my thoughts. I stated that it is not Christ's call for me to declare my witness by claiming my so called rigtheousness... unfortunatly you had to take that statement and twist it into my claiming that I did not believe in sharing the Gospel.
This thread has turned into an avalanche of assumptions and now a tone of arrogance and spiteful comments. If any non believer is to see those comments, I cannot see how he or she would have any compulsion to believe that christians do represent the character of Christ. No wonder so many will question our attitudes by comparing them with Jesus' behavior.

I do not value the words of people who pertain to pose as God Himself. What will happen in heaven as both of you Socrates and Snowball encounter the very people you have burdened yourself to criticize by demeaning their witness and their faith? will you agitate a fist towards them and protest of their presence to a Holy God who is the sole judge of what our mind's and heart's intents are? will you rejoice for the multitude of souls God will have rescued or feel " cheated" because those human beings did not pass your own conditions?
What will you present to God as the proof of your respect of any biblical law God has prescribed? or will you humbly bow to His Judgement and rejoice?
We will be held accountable for every word...every intent to demean and criticize. For every prideful intent to believe that we are the ones taking someone to Christ when the Holy Spirit is the One who works in someone's heart. For every attitude which resulted in speaking as if we were God Himself. For every accusation which resulted in attacking the character of a brother or sister.
We have to be very careful of what we publicaly state about another christian.
God is here among us, reading every word and knowing the intent of each mind and heart. He cannot be decieved or fooled by anyone as to the state of our hearts as we "speak".
I think it is time for each of us to withdraw for a while and pray. God has to lead communication between believers.
A bientot, in Christ, Veronique.

[Socrates]

As I showed, not only are Rahab and LA "unequally yoked" in that they are going in different directions, they are also unequal in that they can't get their stories straight.

When Snowball said:

I think the big question is...does your wife realize that she went against the word of God by marrying you? If so, she should ask God for forgiveness, admit her error, and get on with it.

LA replied: "She has,", but then we got a torrent of self-justification from Rahab which clearly shows that she has NOT admitted her error and asked God's forgiveness for it (which would be granted).

And notable in Rahab's posts is an enormous amount of emotionalism and an absence of appeal to God's written Word, the Scriptures, which Jesus said "cannot be broken" (John 10:35). If Rahab doesn't believe that the Scriptures are authoritative, then she is clearly following what Jesus called "another Christ", because the TRUE Christ OFTEN said "It is written ..." to settle a debate.

Then LA tries to lecture Snowball and me on what Christianity means. And evidently according to him and his poorly informed "Christian" sources, it's salvation by good works. Evidently this lady who couldn't imagine God sending LA to Hell has no conception of the seriousness of sin to a Holy God. And more importantly, she has a complete lack of appreciation of why Jesus suffered the excruciating (a word that derives from the Latin for "cross") death on the cross for our sin. If "good people" went to Heaven, then Jesus would not have needed to give up his life for their sins. Evidently this "Christian" woman would be like that rich young ruler who needed to be told "No one is good but God alone."

Finally, while LA and Rahab furiously JUDGE perceived "judgmentalism" by Snowball and me (and of course ignoring Jesus's COMMAND to judge in John 7:24), judgments from them AGAINST flow like water from a burst dam.

[Snowball]

Today @ 06:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49769#post49769)
Lazy Agnostic:
...and here we see the reason why the Founders wisely chose to remove the reins of power from the oozing hands of religionists. Thank God this is not a Christian Country; thank God for the Wall of Separation.


I guess you don't live in the United States.


Dear Jesus, protect me from your followers.

Now you don't consider your wife to be one of Jesus' followers?


FYI: You mean "virtually" not "literally" oozing.

Yes, thank you. I wrote that in a hurry.

Just to recap:

The Bible clearly says that believers shouldn't marry unbelievers.

I said:
I think the big question is...does your wife realize that she went against the word of God by marrying you? If so, she should ask God for forgiveness, admit her error, and get on with it. Her witness is only damaged insofar as she is not admitting her error.

You said:
She has.

I said:
That should be the end of it then.

I thought that would be the end of it -- after all, we all sin -- so as long as we are not persisting in our sin (being unrepentent) as though we don't know better then everything is ok. If we are truly a Christian, we want to please God and obey Him to the best of our ability, not ignore His will and make excuses for our behavior.

Then LA's wife steps in and clearly demonstrates to us that she hasn't repented (so LA lied) and in fact feels that God's word in this matter doesn't apply to her. Then she self righteously and condescendingly rebukes her fellow brother and sister for judging her in this matter, even though the Bible calls us to judge her on this. With every post from then on, she has continued to demonstrate her lack of biblical knowledge.

Now she and her husband (who isn't a believer and should have no say in this matter) are upset that Christians are doing their best to follow the word of God.

I guess this is typical in a post-modern "I'm ok, you're ok, let's do as we please and make excuses for our behavior" society. I just expected more from someone who is supposedly a Christian.

Best of luck in your spiritually mismatched marriage...if Veronique ever truly learns what the Bible says and decides to follow Jesus on His terms instead of hers, LA isn't going to like it.

[Woman]

Holier than thou self-righteousness! You will all be stricken.

You win no souls for Christ because you are un Christ-like. Your witnessing means nothing because it is prideful and stiff-necked.

If you cannot heal the rift in your churches and with each other, how dare you preach to the un-believers?

[Snowball]

Today @ 10:13 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49940#post49940)
Rahab:

Snowball... It is sad to see how you twisted my thoughts. I stated that it is not Christ's call for me to declare my witness by claiming my so called rigtheousness... unfortunatly you had to take that statement and twist it into my claiming that I did not believe in sharing the Gospel.

I cannot read your mind Veronique, I can only read what you write and ascertain meaning from that.

Here are your exact words:
When asked about the reason for my gentle touch on their suffering bodies, or my determination to relieve their mental distress and validate each of them as a unique and beautiful person, only then do I share my faith. My witness will never be a verbal justification of my so called righteousness.
That is not Christ's call for me.


The emphasis was mine. What am I supposed to think? You said you only share your faith when specifically asked, after a few paragraphs telling me how the people you help don't care about your Christian witness. None of us possess righteousness, except though His righteousness imputed to us when we become believers -- so I guess it never crossed my mind that we would declare our witness through claiming our own righteousness. What I consider to be my witness is how he rescued me from my unrighteousness (wow, I don't think I've ever typed that word more!).


This thread has turned into an avalanche of assumptions and now a tone of arrogance and spiteful comments.

I'm sorry, but the arrogance has come from you. I am merely pointing out what the word of God says, and you are the one blatantly disregarding it in favor of your own authority.


If any non believer is to see those comments, I cannot see how he or she would have any compulsion to believe that christians do represent the character of Christ. No wonder so many will question our attitudes by comparing them with Jesus' behavior.

Seriously Veronique, I question whether or not you have really read the new testament. If anyone's attitude in this thread does not compare to Jesus and His teaching, it is yours. If you feel that emulating Christ calls for unrepentent sin (complete with excuses as to why His word doesn't apply to your situation), disallowing judgement of any kind, and standing by mutely while a brother or sister persists in sin and wallows in a pit -- you are sadly mistaken. I can't see how anyone would consider that type of behavior Christ-like.

I do not value the words of people who pertain to pose as God Himself.

Do you not consider the Bible to be the word of God Himself?


What will happen in heaven as both of you Socrates and Snowball encounter the very people you have burdened yourself to criticize by demeaning their witness and their faith?

Veronique, listen carefully here...I do not demean or criticize another person's faith -- I merely go by the word of God to determine if someone is showing the true signs of a saving faith in Jesus Christ. If they do not display these signs, then what choice do I have (especially in a culture where everyone claims to be a Christian) than to question in my heart if that person is truly a follower of Christ? Let me ask you a question: if I told you I was a Christian but persisted in using His name in vain in every sentence -- what would you think? The link I originally posted went into this in detail, giving scripture cites as well. I really wish you would have read it instead of becoming defensive and posting all your reasons why you feel justified in having stepped outside of God's will.


will you agitate a fist towards them and protest of their presence to a Holy God who is the sole judge of what our mind's and heart's intents are? will you rejoice for the multitude of souls God will have rescued or feel "cheated" because those human beings did not pass your own conditions?

The "conditions" are God's conditions, not mine -- and I don't llive up to His conditions anymore than you do. The difference seems to be that I repent of my sin and strive to understand and obey His will. Earlier in this thread I thought you did to, but then it became evident that that isn't the case.

I do not feel we can out-sin God's capacity to forgive -- if we are covered by the blood, then we are rescued no matter what we do. I personally could care less if you are unequally yoked -- you have to bear the ramifications of that sin, not me. You will be the one who has to explain all your unconfessed sin to God. The whole point of this was the fact that Socrates and I feel that an unrepentent sinner is not typical of a true Christian.


What will you present to God as the proof of your respect of any biblical law God has prescribed? or will you humbly bow to His Judgement and rejoice?

I don't understand the question here...God knows my heart and my desire to know Him through His word.


We will be held accountable for every word...every intent to demean and criticize. For every prideful intent to believe that we are the ones taking someone to Christ when the Holy Spirit is the One who works in someone's heart. For every attitude which resulted in speaking as if we were God Himself. For every accusation which resulted in attacking the character of a brother or sister.

Finally, something we agree on! Perhaps you'd also concede that we will be held accountable for all unconfessed acts of rebellion?


We have to be very careful of what we publicaly state about another christian.

Take your own advice -- you are the one that started the public (and non-biblical) rebuke after I had already said that the issue should be dropped.


God is here among us, reading every word and knowing the intent of each mind and heart. He cannot be decieved or fooled by anyone as to the state of our hearts as we "speak".

Again, we agree.


I think it is time for each of us to withdraw for a while and pray. God has to lead communication between believers.
A bientot, in Christ, Veronique.

I pray every day Veronique -- I also study his word. Both are crucial to having a meaningful relationship with Him.

[Snowball]

Today @ 10:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49972#post49972)
Woman:

Holier than thou self-righteousness! You will all be stricken.


To become a Christian requires one to understand and acknowledge our condition before a holy God, therefore, if anyone is "holier than thou" it is the unbeliever who feels they don't need Christ's perfect sacrifice. They are the ones who will be stricken.


You win no souls for Christ because you are un Christ-like. Your witnessing means nothing because it is prideful and stiff-necked.

As Veronique rightly pointed out, the Holy Spirit is solely responsible for winning souls, not us. We are just called to share the good news and be His hands and feet to an unsaved perishing world.


If you cannot heal the rift in your churches and with each other, how dare you preach to the un-believers?

Woman, we are merely human beings with finite minds attempting to understand and obey an infinite God. There will always be misunderstandings and disagreements. None of our disagreements change the message or what God is offering to you -- you can take it or leave it, but if you let someone else stand between you and God, then who is closer?

[Lazy Agnostic]

I just can't get the picture of Dana Carvey's "Church Lady" out of my head.

Your assertion that my wife cannot be a credible witness is absurd.

You just go on believing that your pontificating slogans and public piety gives you special dispensation to not have to do goodworks.

[Socrates]

LazyAgnostic:
Your assertion that my wife cannot be a credible witness is absurd. Are we supposed to care what an agnostic thinks is a credible witness? You two even contradict each other on whether she has repented!:bonk:

Evidently she hasn't moved you any closer to Christ, since you have just come on to this board to argue AGAINST Christianity. And it IS a poor witness to profess one thing and do another, like professing Christianity and ignoring Scripture which Jesus said "cannot be broken" (John 10:35). And this all started when you mentioned your "Christian" wife as an advocate of butchering unborn babies in the womb.

I can't see how you could take her testimony seriously, e.g. if she justifies something from the Bible, you could point out that she just picks and chooses what part she wants. As Snowball said, if she does start taking the Bible as seriously as Christ did, you won't like it!

You just go on believing that your pontificating slogansI.e. arguing based on the Word of God rather than emotionalism.... and public piety gives you special dispensation to not have to do goodworks.Coming from someone who thinks that his wife is exempt from having to to the good work of avoiding being unequally yoked to an unbeliever! And I remind you -- unlike those Biblically illiterate Christian women of your acquaintance, we are NOT saved by OUR good works but by Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to us (2 Cor. 5:21). So we are saved FOR good works not BY them.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Well, isn't that SPECIAL!

Your opinion of my wife's repentence is irrelevant.

Gluttony is a sin. Can a fat Christian be considered a credible witness?

I believe embracing Christianity can be a noble endeavor. I wish to see it rescued from the pharisees who historically prevent it from rising fully on noble legs.

Faith without goodworks is meaningless.

One needn't be able to utter a whit of scholarship regarding his faith in order to be edified by it. Point all the fingers you want but if you don't set aside the ego to do goodworks, you're just poking yourself in the eye.

[Snowball]

Today @ 01:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50070#post50070)
Lazy Agnostic:

I just can't get the picture of Dana Carvey's "Church Lady" out of my head.


And who put that picture in your head? Hmmm....could it be....Satan? Sorry, I just couldn't resist.


Your assertion that my wife cannot be a credible witness is absurd.

From the mouth of someone who wouldn't be able to recognize a credible Christian witness if he tripped over one! Your wife CAN be a credible witness if she'd quit trying to justify her rebellious act and just admit her mistake and get on with it. Studying the Bible so she would actually know what His commands are would be a good idea too.


You just go on believing that your pontificating slogans and public piety gives you special dispensation to not have to do goodworks.

I think I've said, time and time again, that I don't consider myself to be pious by any stretch of the imagination -- but RA doesn't want to hear it because he'd like to continue in his delusion that I am the arrogant one and not he and his wife.

I was saved FOR good works, I am NOT saved BY good works. Unfortunately for you, that isn't how it works.


I believe embracing Christianity can be a noble endeavor. I wish to see it rescued from the pharisees who historically prevent it from rising fully on noble legs.

Embracing Christianity is definitely a noble endeavor. I wish to see it rescued from the compromisers who are more worried about what the world thinks and what they want than what God thinks and wants.


Faith without goodworks is meaningless.

Faith without good works is dead. Good works without faith are like filthy rags offered to a holy God.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 09:27 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50193#post50193)
Snowball:

And who put that picture in your head? Hmmm....could it be....Satan? Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
:smile:


Faith without good works is dead. Good works without faith are like filthy rags offered to a holy God.
You may have been terrorized into thinking God is a bogeyman but I have no fear of getting his name wrong.

[Snowball]

I said:

Faith without good works is dead. Good works without faith are like filthy rags offered to a holy God.

To which you replied:

You may have been terrorized into thinking God is a bogeyman but I have no fear of getting his name wrong.

What the heck are you talking about? Did I just enter an alternate universe?!?

[Ruth Serra]

"So while she may well be saved, she has no credence as a Christian witness."

Unfortunately, I found this out the hard way. One married to an unbelieving spouse has to go through a lot spiritually and emotionally. I will tell everyone I come into contact with God had His reasons for having the Apostle Paul write what he wrote on this topic.

"My wife declares that I am more honorable than any Christian she's known---not that that is any great distinction, mind you,.."

I thought that about my current husband too after the marriage I had with an abusive man who claimed to be Christian. My first husband is dead, so I didn't leave him for my current husband. My husband had been dead a few years before I met husband number 2.

"... but it indicates the level of her regard. She believes God brought us together."

So did I until about two years ago. We had 5 years of an incredible marriage where God blessed us, and kept us, then the bottom dropped out of our world and now I have a hope that he does not have. That pulls one down even if they are a believer. My husband feels depressed, ugly (physically, and he isn't), and useless. He can't fix our situation and he has no faith towards the one who can. He is sad indeed!

"I hope this will be the case. But while far too many Christian women (I'll give your wife the benefit of the doubt) think they should get into "missionary dating" and even marrying non-Christians in the hope that they will win them over. But they fail to realise that by disobeying their own book, they have already lessened their credibility with the one they hope to win."

Unfortunately I must say a hardy "AMEN" to this. I am praying God will forgive my disobedience, but I know the consequences are mine to endure.

[Ruth Serra]

When we tell others the Scripture says we ought not to marry non-believers and then do so, we become hypocrites to them. It's kind of like telling one's child he/she shouldn't over drink and trying to help them see the wisdom of your advice with the 21st beer in your hand. They are going to laugh at you. Now, that doesn't mean you can't ever help someone else with things, but it will certainly not be easy and I can't describe how I feel trying to tell someone about how they should live. All I can hear echoing in my own head is "Who are you to give advice?" :o(

[Ruth Serra]

She has.

So have I.

How does that make you feel knowing that your wife has had to repent of being your wife? It would hurt me to have my husband tell God he's sorry he married me. Of course, he has told ME that any way, but God wasn't/isn't the reason. I'm not sure what the reason is, but I made a pact before we married I wouldn't walk away from him, so unless he wants to go (and Scripture says in that case I should let him) I'll be with him until death.

[Ruth Serra]

A big hug for you. I understand how you must feel. Obviously your husband has remained a constant unlike mine. Yes, christians don't always act as they should either, my first husband was a "christian" (and I use the term loosely). I met him and married him in church. He became an alcoholic, and a wife beater and yet all my christian friends condone that marriage and not this one. My current husband (an agnostic)other than changing his mind and being disrespectful to me when he talks to me (argumentative and rude) has never hit me or been drunk in the almost 8 years we've known each other...and that only in the past 2 years.

[Amazing Rando]

Good on you for keeping your word, Ruth. Welcome to Tweb by the way! :thumb:

[Ruth Serra]

Funny, no one knew my husband wasn't a Christian either. They were all shocked when they found out. We told them because he didn't want to pray in church or take communion.

My Pastor told me that christian men could take some lessons on how to treat their wives. Well, unfortunately that's no longer the case. I hope you continue to work with your wife not against her. I know my husband is not protected from the Satanic forces that be because he has no faith in the one who can deliver him, and that makes him vulnerable. I don't blame him. It just makes me sad and of course my marriage is in shambles even though we don't say so.

[Ruth Serra]

Thank you for the welcome.

[elysian]

Thank you for the welcome.

Ruth ((((hugs)))))

I understand, and it took disobedience (marrying an unbeliever) for me to see the wisdom in Paul's words- and the need to repent of it as well. When I met and married my husband I was living in very deep cynicism and animosity toward God. That too, was sin. I thank God for showing me my errors (though I had to learn the hard way, which in and of itself is a long story) and by His grace granting me second, third and 100,000th chances. This doesn't mean it's OK to "sin away" because you'll be forgiven. God does forgive those who truly repent of sin, but we still have to deal with the consequences of our sin.

One of our Pastors explained the rules God has given us in Scripture this way:

The rules in Scripture are boundaries for our protection. When our children are little we put up fences to keep them from running out into the road. When they are older we set limits such as "Curfew is 10 PM" or "NO drinking alcohol" for their protection, to keep them from hurting themselves or others. When we cross the boundaries that God, our Father gives us, we hurt ourselves and others. God gave us boundaries to help protect us from going against His will for us (sinning) because His will for us is always for our best.

When He says in His Word: "Don't marry an unbeliever" it's really out of kindness and for our benefit. He knows that the "punishment" for this sin can be especially devastating and He wants for us to avoid this source of pain. When we are married to unbelievers it causes a tremendous amount of heartache and tension. It can inhibit our own growth in faith (unbelieving spouses often take a dim view on activities such as going to worship, participating in the activities of the church and Bible study and devotions) as well as leave us feeling "incomplete."

God is first in my life so where does that leave my husband? He is agnostic and is somewhat mildly amused at this most of the time. He will make comments to his buddies such as "no my wife doesn't drink and smoke 'cuz she's religious" or "don't ask my wife to lie for you unless you tell her it's for Jesus," etc. He is jealous of the time I spend at church whether it be at worship or classes or serving, which requires me to be creative (like going to worship at 8:15- so I can be home on Sunday mornings before he wakes up) and sometimes to decline opportunities to serve if they conflict with things he wants me to do.

God gives us rules not to stand over us with an iron fist or to catch us being bad, but because when we violate His rules we not only offend Him but we hurt ourselves and others.

If I were to talk to a Christian who is contemplating marriage with a non-believer I would say: don't do it. Eventually your spouse may come to resent God being your first priority. Your faith may suffer and you may come to feel pulled between the needs of your spouse and the need to be involved with your church and the greater Body of Christ. You may come to feel as if you are encumbered in your walk of faith and in your marriage because you are in many ways dragging your spouse behind you instead of walking side by side with your spouse (unequally yoked- stronger animal trying to pull a load alongside a weaker animal.) Paul says "don't do it" for all of these reasons.

Yet for us sinful humans there is Hope in Christ. He forgives us and can even use our poor judgment to teach us a lasting lesson that we can grow from (Romans 8:28.) Those who you know are in unequally yoked marriages need your support and encouragement, not derision. We are equally responsible to share with others those things we have learned by our mistakes.

[reasonabledoubt]

I, for one, am glad that my Christian grandma married a non-Christian- or else I would not be here! He also did become a Christian later, and she's one of the strongest and most dedicated Christians I've ever met.
Sometimes things are not black and white.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Funny, no one knew my husband wasn't a Christian either. They were all shocked when they found out. We told them because he didn't want to pray in church or take communion.

My Pastor told me that christian men could take some lessons on how to treat their wives. Well, unfortunately that's no longer the case. I hope you continue to work with your wife not against her. I know my husband is not protected from the Satanic forces that be because he has no faith in the one who can deliver him, and that makes him vulnerable. I don't blame him. It just makes me sad and of course my marriage is in shambles even though we don't say so.I could talk with your husband if you'd like. My wife is devoutly Christian and I am devoutly not---but I find it a sweet duty to encourage her faith.

[elysian]

Thanks, LA. That was a kind thing to offer. I don't think you would enjoy the conversation with my husband though! My husband is not a pleasant person, especially when he's had his head in a beer bottle for awhile. The conflict here is that he wants me to worship him rather than God, Who he thinks is make believe or an abstract concept at best. If I'm at church, you see, I can't be going to the drive-thru to get him more beer nor can I jump up to fix him meals or find things for him or clean up after him. His expectation is that when I'm not at work I am to be at his beck and call- immediately. Not in an hour or later in the day but immediately. In his mind I believe he honestly thinks that I should regard him as God.

I think he does realize that the only way I can bear to live with him and to take his crap is because of my faith. He will often remark to his buddies "she can't leave me because her religion says she can't." This is a remark he uses when he wants to order me around in front of his buddies or cuss me out in front of them. He thinks faith is all a psychological game (you just "will yourself" into "being good") but I know differently.

There's another part of this that is heartbreaking which is when I go to church and see how Christian men behave with their wives and families (or even see my sisters' families- they both married Christian men.) Yes I do struggle with being jealous of that and I do freely confess it as sin. It is not good to compare especially because I don't know what goes on when they are in private. These guys could be worse than my husband (who these days is at least honest, he's obnoxious in public as well as in private) behind closed doors. I know that being married to such an obnoxious person is the end result of my own disobedience and rebellion. He put up a good front - he appeared to be loving and caring, etc. - but almost immediately after we got married he changed. It was (and still is) all about the power trip- he claims that "there's no need to be nice now, I got what I wanted."

It's my own fault. God will give me the grace to deal with it in a way that glorifies Him, and if there is any hope for change He will effect it. I only have the ability to love a person like this because of God's grace.

I'm sure there are exceptions in which the unbelieving spouse is tolerant or encouraging of the other's faith but I would struggle to see where this would be the rule.

[Rahab]

Thank you for the welcome.
Bonjour Ruth and a warm warm welcome to you! I was reading your post commenting on the repentance and how it may make my hubby feel....what may need to be added here is the fact that God has forgiven. And when forgiveness is dispensed by God, the believer must accept it and trust that God will work wonders. What IMO is negative for any of us, christians, is to continue to dwell in self comdemnation and somehow convince ourselves that God is desiring to "make us bear the consequences of our disobedience" when we have asked for forgiveness.
IMO the consequences of dysfunctional marriages at any level are more a matter of two people who are not commited to face the trials, tribulations, joys and blessings of marital life as a "team". Also the personal ability to love the other spouse more than himself or herself plays an important part. There is also the baggage from the past (upbringing, possible dysfunctional relationships in childhood) which can easily interfere with the way two spouses will communicate and relate. I do not believe those factors are to be ruled out as obstacles to a functional and harmonious marital relationship and mutual growth because both spouses are christians. Thus why we commonly find the necessity within christianity to offer marriage and family counseling because those problems exist at different degrees in all marital relationships whether they be spiritualy "united" or not.

What I have found among some christian couples, is that they sort of denied the reality of the existence of such interferences in their lives and preferred to dwell on the concept that both being in Christ was sufficient enough to remedy to their problems. Thus no dealing with those issues. And if the appearance could be maintained that "they are Ok", an inside observer could easily detect the extent of how miserable they were.

I have no doubt that sharing the same spiritual path for two spouses can be a factor of unity and a wonderful way to share the epiphany together of worshiping Christ. I am part of the exceptions where we are both not spiritualy united under Christ but we are both commited to working as a team and find what we have in common to make a difference in other people's lives. Our focus then resides on the pre existing harmony mentaly and emotionaly we are still exploring in both of us. Do we have common goals? are we both moved by the same things? can we inspire one another in to becoming "better versions of ourselves"? can we encourage one another to cultivate what is edifying for each of us without necessarly demanding that he or I abide to what is edifying for each other personaly? are we focused on helping one another grow in our own areas?

It takes, Ruth, acceptance on my part, that God is in control not me. That I must entrust God that whichever destination my husband's soul will take when he departs from this life will be soly a matter of God's discernment and knowledge of his heart. All my concerns are given to the Lord in prayer. Intimatly. Privatly. Though most of my prayer communication is " Lord, please use my husband in my life to transform me as you will for me to be".

I can also declare very clearly that my hubby has been the most inspiring human being in my life in terms of me refocusing on Christ and trusting Him to change me from the inside out. And probably because LA's vision of the "noble endeavor christianity can be" is so very close to Christ's teachings on us modifying our initial behavior, attitudes and following His Demonstrations thru the 4 Gospels on how we are to treat others. You will find that freethinkers who follow the Golden Rule and practise it end up exhibiting attitudes and behaviors towards others very close to how Christ treated people. It is not unconcievable to believe that God can use such an inspiring husband in my life to transform me. Being told " trust your faith " by a freethinker is quite a revealing communication of his desire to nurture my beliefs at times I may struggle with some circumstances.

I think that the other issue in some "disappointing" marital relationships where both spouses have different spiritual paths is the expectation we may have that " he must change" and " we do not need to". There is a trend in some christians to pray so that God will zap hubby somehow and change him overnight.... yet we neglict again to entrust God to work on US first with the material He has to work with. I can see Elysian's growth in Christ as she is now focused on dwelling on God's Grace to find the means to love her hubby. Though I am not one to suggest that any spouse is to remain in any relationship where physical, emotional and mental abuse may occur under "God's Grace". There is a vast difference between dwelling on God's Grace to learn to love an "unlovable" hubby as Christ loves us and become a co dependent victim of an abusive and dysfunctional spouse.

On the both spouses being christians side, your experience in your first marriage points to support my initial comments that pre existing relational issues just do not disappear because a man or woman declares his or her abidance to christianity. There is a process of transformation that is to occur but only if the believer is WILLING (free will?) to be transformed by faith.

In my case I did not have to make any efforts to love my hubby. It sort of "flows" naturaly. But please keep in mind that none of us were "springchickens" when we pronounced our marital vows and had already understood the importance of examining all the psychological factors which can either interfere or facilitate harmony in a couple.

Here is a couple of suggestions I wish to share with the christian spouses of non christian spouses :
_ try not to dwell all the time on the fact that because he or she is not christian, God is not going to use them for your personal growth. Look for what in their behavior and attitudes are examples of what Christ would want us to do.
_ Do not lack the ability to value and appreciate someone else's ability to practise goodness, charity, compassion (especialy the non selective compassion to the "unlovable") because they are not a christian. Be careful to not dismiss traits in their attitudes and character which reflect what Christ has asked us to do. If you can see decency and integrity in their character, glorify God for all those (especialy the non selective compassion).

_ Be thankful to God for any act of love your spouse may demonstrate to you. Do not consider them with a feeling of " oh I wished it was inspired by God" because you need to entrust that God is the author of any goodness, charity, non selective compassion, decency, integrity etc.....

_ That you desire to see your spouse embrace your faith is to be expected from all of us. But do not make it a condition to validating your spouse as your husband or wife. We are to demonstrate the same respect and honoring of our spouses. Avoid such communication if you have an argument " you are not even a christian". "it is because you are not a christian that you are such a failure ......". Careful..... any well informed person can give you in response examples of a multitude of christians who are far from being succesful......Do not dwell on the notion that because you are a christian, you happen to be "perfect". That would be an unrealistic perception of christianity.

Above all..... as Paul tells us " love being the most important of all three". Draw from Christ the Grace to love here and now a person who can suddenly disappear from this life. Work with and on them all you need to as you will to witness the way Christ works in your life.... but do not withold your potential to love them here and now.

If you are a woman.. be a nurturer. Be an inspirer. When you fix his lunch box, add a small extra treat as you do for your own child. Give him a sense that he is worth the little extra attention. Understand what gifts God has given you as a woman and use them to be a helpmate to your hubby.
If you are a man....guide. But do not oppress. Do not command. Respect her emotional needs. Be attentive to them. Understand the gifts God has given you as a man and use them to be an objective guide to your wife.

[elysian]

There is a vast difference between dwelling on God's Grace to learn to love an "unlovable" hubby as Christ loves us and become a co dependent victim of an abusive and dysfunctional spouse.

Rahab I do agree with this- and it has been a challenge for me to establish boundaries. For a very long time I did simply jump simply because he said "frog." I was afraid to tell him no or to refuse to do what he said. It is a long, slow process but gradually with the Lord's help I have been able to let him know when his demands are unreasonable and that I will not comply with unreasonable demands. I've set some very important ones such as being involved at church, (even though he resents it,) not jumping up to fix special meals or treats for him after 10PM and refusing to buy beer or cigarettes for him or to cart him back and forth from bars. There are more boundaries that need to be set but it is a gradual process. It's actually addressing the problem instead of simply running away from it.

I know God would forgive me if I left him. I have good reasons- according to some interpretations even Scriptural ones- and then some. But leaving him is more than a matter of "God will forgive you so it's ok." I left my first husband who was even more abusive despite claiming to be Christian because I went to a counselor who simply shoved the book "Co-Dependent No More" at me and said "ditch the loser." I'm not saying "ditching the loser" was not necessary (I feared for my son being anywhere near my ex) but it was an overly simplistic solution that did not address the root problem.

I expect to have no authority in relationships because I grew up literally being beaten up every day- if not by my sisters then by the other kids at school. Through this I learned I had no rights, that my only defense was simply to shut up and comply. Ever so slowly I am digging out of this pattern and learning what appropriate boundaries are. But without correcting the underlying problem (failing to set appropriate boundaries and expecting to be beaten up) I set myself up for failure in any relationship. While my husband is an unpleasant person to be around and he can be verbally and emotionally abusive and controlling I have permitted him to be that way and even have unwittingly rewarded that behavior. What he is slowly learning is that his actions have consequences. If he cusses me out I leave for an hour or two. If he tries to order me around in front of his friends I flat out tell him no to his face and request that he ask me to do something rather than tell me what I'm going to do. If he wants food late at night after I have gone to bed I will not prepare it for him, especially as I have already provided him with a dinner (that he likely refused to eat) earlier in the evening.

I also know that often the injury and pain after divorce isn't worth it. Even when it is a sad necessity it is a painful process to recover from. Unlike my ex my husband does love my son- so much so that he adopted him. There are times when he can be remarkably kind and gentle. He is "worth the effort" in my opinion as well as in God's eyes as long as I possibly can endure. It's not a punishment as in "you married a heathen and it's your punishment to sit back and let him crap on you" but rather a natural consequence. I also believe Romans 8:28, that God can take a bad circumstance and use it to your benefit, if you surrender it to Him.

I know my choice is not the best choice for everyone in a troubled marriage but so far I do believe I am doing the right thing in staying. I know that could change and there may come a point in which it is necessary to leave. As long as I stay (which I pray, God willing is for life) I know it is not easy, especially with setting boundaries and refusing to be taken advantage of, but I think in the end it will be worth the struggle.

[Twilly Spree]

I would like to marry another Catholic. But I have no problem marrying someone who is not as long as they agree to raise our children Catholic. I still hope that I will find a good Catholic boy though, just the support that would be there from someone that fully understood the faith.

[elysian]

I would like to marry another Catholic. But I have no problem marrying someone who is not as long as they agree to raise our children Catholic. I still hope that I will find a good Catholic boy though, just the support that would be there from someone that fully understood the faith.

Twilly you may want to be somewhat adamant on that if you want to have kids and follow the rule on raising them Catholic.

My Mom is Catholic, my Dad (a somewhat lapsed) Regular Baptist. They're both Christians but from very different interpretations. My sisters and I were raised Catholic but because my Dad's family is Baptist we had a lot of exposure to that tradition as well. It was confusing. Especially when we were really little and Mom truly believed all Protestants go to hell and she'd have to convert Dad before he died (she converted to Catholicism before Vatican II, but I don't see my Dad becoming Catholic any time soon, even though he does like to advertise his shop in the weekly bulletin at Mom's church, he gets a lot of customers that way) My grandmother had comments on the other side as well that hell is full of "mackerel snapping Mary worshippers." Now I see it as incorrect information and distrust on both sides, but back then it scared me to death. Who was going to hell and who was right?

Anyway none of us kids remained Catholic. One sister went over to the Southern Baptists (not quite as strict as the Regulars,) the other is a Presbyterian and I didn't move too terribly far away- I'm Lutheran, which is about as close to Catholicism as a Protestant can be. :teeth:

IMO it is better for both parents to be as close in their beliefs as possible, but who am I to say- my husband is an agnostic. Hindsight is 20/20!

[Twilly Spree]

Wow thanks for the advice El. At least you're all still Christian.

I've dated athiests....we don't mesh I've found that out. They don't understand like during Easter weekend that it was a big deal for me and I wouldn't have time to call them. I have found that Catholics or Lutherns are a good fit for me. But I'm still dating so I give almost everyone a date, just to see how things go. But you're advice means alot thanks.

[elysian]

Wow thanks for the advice El. At least you're all still Christian.

I've dated athiests....we don't mesh I've found that out. They don't understand like during Easter weekend that it was a big deal for me and I wouldn't have time to call them. I have found that Catholics or Lutherns are a good fit for me. But I'm still dating so I give almost everyone a date, just to see how things go. But you're advice means alot thanks.

I'm thankful for that too, but all of us had to examine what we believed and why because of the conflicting messages. My oldest sister had the hardest time and was more or less agnostic through high school and college, but when she met her husband they started going to a Presbyterian church, and for her it was enough of the "high church" tradition (Presbyterians, like Catholics and Lutherans are liturgical) but without the rigidity and potential for legalism of either side.

Yes Lutherans understand the importance of Holy Week and of the observance of a church year. Our traditional liturgy is remarkably similar to Catholic Mass as well. My husband gets really torqued about Holy Week: Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday. He can't understand why I find it important to be at church four days in one week. :lol: