Did the Torah Curses Include TOTAL Destruction?

[Cherith]

"Know therefore that The LORD thy God, He is God, The Faithful God,
which keeps covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments
to a thousand generations; {10} And repayeth them that hate Him
to their face, to destroy them:
He will not be slack to him that hateth Him, He will repay him to his face.
{11} Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments,
which I command thee this day, to do them." --Deu 7:9-11

100

--Deu 28:15 "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of The LORD thy God, to observe to do ALL His Commandments and His Statutes which I command thee this day; that ALL these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:"

--Deu 28:20-22 "The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken Me. {21} The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until He has CONSUMED thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. {22} The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish."

--Deu 28:24 "The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed."

--Deu 28:29 "And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee."

--Deu 28:33 "The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed always:"

--Deu 28:45-46 "Moreover ALL these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto The Voice of The LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded thee: {46} And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever."

--Deu 28:48 "Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which The LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and He shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until He has destroyed thee."

--Deu 28:37 "And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee."

--Deu 28:51 "And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee."

--Deu 28:59 "Then The LORD will make thy plagues fearful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance."

--Deu 28:61-65 "Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this Law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. {62} And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey The Voice of The LORD thy God. {63} And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. {64} And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. {65} And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but The LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:"

--Deu 29:25-28 "Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken The Covenant of The LORD God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: {26} For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom He had not given unto them: {27} And The Anger of The LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it ALL the curses that are written in this book: {28} And The LORD rooted them out of their land in Anger, and in Wrath, and in Great Indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day."

--Deu 30:17-18 "But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; {18} I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it."

--Deu 31:17-19 "Then My anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I Will Forsake them, and I Will Hide My Face from them, and they shall be devoured/consumed, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? {18} And I Will surely Hide My Face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. {19} Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me AGAINST the children of Israel."

--Deu 31:21 "And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify AGAINST them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware."

--Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of The Ark of The Covenant of The LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness AGAINST thee."

--Deu 32:23-24 "I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. {24} They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured/consumed with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust."

--Deu 32:26-27 "I said I would scatter them and blot out their memory from mankind, {27} but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy, lest the adversary misunderstand and say, 'Our hand has triumphed; the LORD has not done all this'."

--Deu 32:36 NIV "The LORD Will Judge His people and have Compassion on His servants when He sees their strength is gone and no one is left, slave or free."

[GrayPilgrim]

I find your selectivity a bit out of kilter and incomplete; what about?

40 "But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, 41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies- if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 But the land shall be abandoned by them and enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them, and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned my rules and their soul abhorred my statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, neither will I abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break my covenant with them, for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sake remember the covenant with their forefathers, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD."


"And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you, 2 and return to the LORD your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 And the LORD your God will put all these curses on your foes and enemies who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again obey the voice of the LORD and keep all his commandments that I command you today. 9 The LORD your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your cattle and in the fruit of your ground. For the LORD will again take delight in prospering you, as he took delight in your fathers, 10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Both of these passages describe what happens after the curse, and a restoration so to answer your question, no it is not total destruction.

[Cherith]

I guess you're not following the debate, Gray, because I've repeatedly made the claim that the covenant was made with the NATION and as such required NATIONAL repentance to renew the covenant once broken.


40 "But IF they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against Me, and also in walking contrary to Me, 41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies- IF THEN their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, 42 THEN I will remember My Covenant with Jacob, and I will remember My Covenant with Isaac and My Covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 But the land shall be abandoned by them and enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them, and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned My Rules and their soul abhorred My Statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, neither will I abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break My Covenant with them, for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sake remember the Covenant with their forefathers, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD."


"And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you, 2 and return to the LORD your God, you AND your children, and obey His Voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 THEN the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, and He will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will take you. 5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart AND the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 And the LORD your God will put all these curses on your foes and enemies who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again obey the voice of the LORD and keep all His Commandments that I command you today. 9 The LORD your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your cattle and in the fruit of your ground. For the LORD will again take delight in prospering you, as He took delight in your fathers, 10 when you obey the Voice of the LORD your God, to keep His Commandments and His Statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Both of these passages describe what happens after the curse, and a restoration so to answer your question, no it is not total destruction.

Gray, those passages describe what COULD or MIGHT or MAY happen IF the NATION as a whole repented. Both are in the conditional, subjunctive mood. The Old Covenant was made with the NATION - the "you" in the 2nd passage. As the destiny of the nation goes so goes that of the individuals. The injunction for repentance that could lead to covenant renewal was not up to a handful of individuals, but for the majority that had broken the covenant. Even still, their destiny - whether or not God allowed the covenant to be renewed - lay in the Hands of God and whether He would accept their repentance. He was in no means obligated.

Try this, Gray, if you are still having trouble, insert a Biblical name for "you" in the above text. Tell me who the Lord is speaking to if it is not to the nation as a whole but to an individual?

The Lord keeps Covenant with those who LOVE Him AND KEEP His Commandments and repays those who HATE Him to their face to DESTROY them. (Deut 7:9-11)

Besides Gray, as a Christian, how would YOU have an obsolete people come back into an obsolete covenant/relationship with God?

[GrayPilgrim]

Try this, Gray, if you are still having trouble, insert a Biblical name for "you" in the above text. Tell me who the Lord is speaking to if it is not to the nation as a whole but to an individual?

I wil insert the name "Daniel", and I think the praye might go something like this...

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans- 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. 3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8 To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10 and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. 12 He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us, by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the LORD our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. 14 Therefore the LORD has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have made a name for yourself, as at this day, we have sinned, we have done wickedly. 16 "O Lord, according to all your righteous acts, let your anger and your wrath turn away from your city Jerusalem, your holy hill, because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people have become a byword among all who are around us. 17 Now therefore, O our God, listen to the prayer of your servant and to his pleas for mercy, and for your own sake, O Lord, make your face to shine upon your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline your ear and hear. Open your eyes and see our desolations, and the city that is called by your name. For we do not present our pleas before you because of our righteousness, but because of your great mercy. 19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive. O Lord, pay attention and act. Delay not, for your own sake, O my God, because your city and your people are called by your name." 20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the LORD my God for the holy hill of my God, 21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, "O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision. 24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

I also included the Lord's response to just such a prayer...isn't it interesting how the 70 years of Jeremiah, is multiplied a further seven years, but there is no repudiation of the Sinaitic Covenant. Lucas in his commentary on Daniel notes:

When Daniel turns from Jeremiah's oracles about the seventy years of exile to a prayer of confession, he utters jsut the kind of prayer required by Leviticus 26:40 for the forgiveness of sins and the termination of a period of sabbatical cycles of desolation for the land. Gabriel's response to prayers assures Daniel that the confession is accepted. It also resolves the apparent conflicit between Jeremiah's oracles, which could be taken to indicate a determined end to the period of desolation, and Lev. 26, where the end of the sabbatical cycles depends on human confession and divine grace, (Ernest C. Lucas, Daniel (AOTC; Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity: 2002), 250).


Besides Gray, as a Christian, how would YOU have an obsolete people come back into an obsolete covenant/relationship with God?
N.T. Wright in Jesus and the Victory of God argues that when read in the light of the return from Exile theme (by the way during Jesus' time the current expectation was that the exile would soon end) Jesus ministry is an answer to this prayer and the exile inaugurated by Nebuchadnezzar. Thus Jesus' vicotry on the cross was not just a vicotry over the grave, but a final meeting of all the curses of the Law. So my argument is semantics. I say taht Christ came to the lost sheep of Israel and we gentiles are also brought in from the outer darkness, however the focus of his mission was to the Jews, and as Paul said to teh Jews first and then to the gentiles....so I agree that Christ is the only way to the Father, but that does not aberogate the covenant God made with the Patriarchs or with Israel, in fact the New Covenant only makes sense in light of the previous covenants, but that is a discussion for another forum. I simply think your conception of covenant is way too narrow.

GP

[Solly]

Joining both thoughts together; could one not say that even in this Christ fulfills the law and the prophets, since it is ultimately his intercessory action that brings his people - he shall save his people from their sins - back from exile - which was a curse action by God for their sins, and speaks of the larger exile from God endured by humanity as a whole? After all, the return/restoration did not work, and Malachi is soon berating them again, and speaking of another curse to come:
Mal 4:6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."
It is also a matter, as Paul points out, of who is Israel since
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."

Matthew, with his exile/restoration motif, shows that Jesus is Israel, and so the nation does repent.

[dizzle]

Jesus is the Ideal Israel so it is somehwat of a disconnect to say us evil replacement theologians (I am being sarcastic not saying anyone in this thread does or would ever do such a thing) have promises to "Israel" being unfulfilled. It is fulfilled in the True Israel, Christ, and those who are in Christ, regardless of ancestry.

All the promises of God are "yes" in Jesus Christ.

[Cherith]

I totally agree that Jesus is the greater Israel and as THE representative for the seed of Abraham, the people of God, He - and only He - can act on behalf of the nation.

We get glimpses of this in the prophet Elijah when he is solely responsible for leading the people of the Northern Kingdom back into some semblance of a covenant relationship. We see this with King Josiah and Hilkiah the priest. However, we also see the inverse with the bad kings and prophets of Israel leading the people into idolatry and breaking the covenant.

I disagree with Gray's conclusion about Daniel. Daniel does pray on behalf of the people, but God's answer is not that He will renew the Old Covenant but rather that He will make a New Covenant with the bringing in of the Messiah. Daniel couldn't keep the covenant for the entire nation by his prayer of repentance of their behalf. However, I think that maybe some of you are misunderstanding me. I don't believe that the faithful were ever out of covenant with God. In fact, it was the faithful remnant in the first century that made the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant by exercising faith in the promises of God. The spiritual promises that He kept with the faithful remnant despite the repeated failure of the nation as a whole to remain faithful to Him. He did this, not out of obligation to a covenant "which covenant they brake," but purely for His Own Purposes and Pleasure.

Of course, modern Jews by very definition are not part of the group who made the transition. In a very real sense, the ethnic distinctions between Jew and non-Jew ceased at the cross, but in practice it took another couple of decades to totally obliterate these distinctions by their subsequent dispersion, intermarriage, and general unfaithfulness. This perfectly fulfilled God's Will.

[Cherith]

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and THE END thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. {27} And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Pardon me, Gray, WHERE is the covenant renewal that you were alluding to in this section?

What do words and phrases like "the end," "desolate," "consummation," "to cease," etc. mean TO YOU?

WHAT "end" is in view here if it is not the end of the Old Covenant and the subsequent TOTAL DESTRUCTION brought about after all of the curses have been exercised? And you should ask yourself WHY is there an "end" anyway, if all that was needed was Daniel (or some other Israelite) to repent on behalf of the nation?

We might ask our Jewish friends how the messiah that they envision will save them from anything if he is dead? Assuming, of course, that they can produce JUST ONE genetic descendant of King David...

[John D. Brey]

Hi GrayPilgrim

>>I simply think your conception of covenant is way too narrow.<<

I agree. Cherith seems preoccupied with the stick to the exclusion of the carrot?



John Brey

[Cherith]

>>I...think your conception of covenant is way too narrow.<< I agree. Cherith seems preoccupied with the stick to the exclusion of the carrot?

So tell me another way to view the covenant or tell me what the "carrot" is...

[John D. Brey]

Hi Cherith,


>>So tell me another way to view the covenant or tell me what the "carrot" is...<<

Which "covenant" are you speaking of?? --- You speak as though there's one all encompassing "Covenant" between God and Israel??

There are many passages in the first Covenant that speak of God's enduring love for Israel, and the unconditional blessing given to Israel.



John Brey

[Cherith]

Which "covenant" are you speaking of?? --- You speak as though there's one all encompassing "Covenant" between God and Israel??

There are many passages in the first Covenant that speak of God's enduring love for Israel, and the unconditional blessing given to Israel.

I have been talking about the OLD Covenant. The New Covenant is endless. It stretches into eternity because it is made with The Eternal Son of God and His people who are made holy by His substitionary Atonement.

God's Love does endure for Israel. The question in the New Covenant is: who is Israel? "For they are NØT all Israel who are OF Israel." (Rom 9:6). In the first instance Paul is talking about the covenant children of Israel (i.e. Jacob). In the second instance Paul is talking about Jacob himself. So you have to determine who is in view when the name Israel is mentioned - whether a person, a group, etc. Even in the O.T. "Israel" was used in a multiplicity of ways - sometimes interchangeably - e.g. to refer to the apostate Northern tribes and at other times to refer to the two faithful Southern tribes. However in the N.T. "Israel" can be used in another sense...

As for your assertion that the Old Covenant was unconditional, it is just that - an assertion - without any basis in reality.

"For IF that First Covenant had been faultless (that is, "unconditional"), THEN should no place have been sought for the Second Covenant." ...{13} "In that He Saith, A New Covenant, He hath made the First Covenant OBSOLETE. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is about to vanish away."

The ONLY sense in which the First Covenant was unconditional (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=482887&postcount=4) is in the sense that it is fulfilled in the Messiah - the greater "Israel," the greater Son of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David.

For a fuller treatment of this you can see my debate with Yoshiah (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21895) or we can discuss this on the theology board (as Jews don't really care to hear about OUR covenant...).

Grace and Peace,
--C