Preterists, Romanism and 666

[calvin]

How do preterists and Roman Catholicism arrive at 666 for "Caesar Nero" and what is the mark on right hand and forehead of the followers of Nero if he is the numbered beast of Rev 13:18 ?

[studyhound]

How do preterists and Roman Catholicism arrive at 666 for "Caesar Nero" and what is the mark on right hand and forehead of the followers of Nero if he is the numbered beast of Rev 13:18 ?
Preterists apply the instructions John left to figure it out: Calculate!


'Nero Caesar', written in its seven Hebrew consonants (transliterated as 'Neron Kaisar'), give a value of 50+200+6+50+100+60+200, which adds up to 666. This was the earliest Christian understanding of this code-number, which John said needed sophia or understanding to calculate (Beckwith 1967: 401,402). This is interestingly confirmed by variant manuscripts of the book of Revelation with the same error. The error reads 616 instead of 666. If Nero is spelt instead without the final consonant ('n'), as in its Latin form (as it is known to us today), the number adds up to 616. This explains the variant reading of some manuscripts.

**just a google search can't vouch for the site but it did have what I was looking for**
http://users.iafrica.com/l/ll/lloyd/7-EndTimeIssues/666.htm


The head and hand are symbolic for the thought and actions of man, and so those who follow the Beast think like him and act like him - i.e. persecute Christians and discriminate against them.

:studyhound:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Just to add to what SH said about the marks being symbolic. There are other places in the OT that mentions simlar symbolic marks. So this is interpretation is based on an understanding of the OT.

Also note that there are similar symbolic marks on the "Bride of Christ" i.e. the Church mentioned in Revelation as well. No one claims that these marks are anything other than symbolic.

[Solly]

Why would Christians in Asia Minor [the letters were written to them] know about Hebrew letters? And the finer points of temple administration for that matter?

[Ted]

Just to add fuel to the fire, there is no warrant for using a transliterated name. Gematria applies in the native language. Further, Revelation was written in Greek to Greek speaking churches. Why would anyone think of converting to Hebrew? After all, the practice of gematria in Hebrew did not come until a couple of centuries later.

But, if anyone did this improbable task, he would rapidly discover that “Neron Kaisar” does not add up to 666! That is because the “nun” at the end of “Neron” is a “final nun.” It does has a value of 700 rather than 50. This gives a total value of 1316 rather than 666.

And as a final insult, John supplied the answer in Revelation 13! To mega therion (the great beast) has a gematria value of 666. God was thumbing his nose at those who rely on their own knowledge rather than depending on him.

[John Reece]

Why would Christians in Asia Minor [the letters were written to them] know about Hebrew letters? And the finer points of temple administration for that matter?

That's a good question.

Revelation is all about God's covenantal relationship with Israel.

Revelation is far more thoroughly Semitic than you may imagine.

Were the churches, to which Revelation is written, totally bereft of leaders or members with Hebrew background and knowledge?

[Solly]

That's a good question.

Revelation is all about God's covenantal relationship with Israel.

Revelation is far more thoroughly Semitic than you may imagine.

Were the churches, to which Revelation is written, totally bereft of leaders or members with Hebrew background and knowledge?

But that is an assumption. If Rev is pre 70ad, then why not written to the churches in Judea, to prepare them for what is to come, and thus ensure their knowledge of hebrew. And that is a maybe also, cos even then they more likely knew aramaic and greek rather than hebrew. Given the provenance of the book, suggested by the opening letters, it's like writing to mars about events shortly to transpire on earth, which is no time at all to prepare, and less time to find real news from jerusalem once the armies set in.

[John Reece]

But that is an assumption. . .

:smile:

If Rev is pre 70ad, then why not written to the churches in Judea, to prepare them for what is to come, and thus ensure their knowledge of hebrew. And that is a maybe also, cos even then they more likely knew aramaic and greek rather than hebrew. Given the provenance of the book, suggested by the opening letters, it's like writing to mars about events shortly to transpire on earth, which is no time at all to prepare, and less time to find real news from jerusalem once the armies set in.

When I referred to "Hebrew background", I was referring to Judaism, not just Hebrew as a language. I am persuaded that C. C. Torrey was right regarding the thesis he presented in The Apocalypse of John: that is, that Revelation was written in Aramaic and translated into Greek.

As to why not this and why not that, that's beyond the scope of pure exegesis, which is all that interests me.

[Bib Lit Major]

But, if anyone did this improbable task, he would rapidly discover that “Neron Kaisar” does not add up to 666! That is because the “nun” at the end of “Neron” is a “final nun.” It does has a value of 700 rather than 50. This gives a total value of 1316 rather than 666.

That is very interesting to me, and I don't necessarily have grounds to disagree with you, but would this final nun be within a compound numeral, or would it always be on the end? Are there examples you can give from a Hebrew text?

[Solly]

:smile:



When I referred to "Hebrew background", I was referring to Judaism, not just Hebrew as a language. I am persuaded that C. C. Torrey was right regarding the thesis he presented in The Apocalypse of John: that is, that Revelation was written in Aramaic and translated into Greek.

As to why not this and why not that, that's beyond the scope of pure exegesis, which is all that interests me.

Yes, afterwards, as I went home and thought about it, my reply today would have been that Revelation is Judaic in an OT sense, since the writer quotes and alludes to so much from the OT. But that does not tell us about its intended audience. style is not necessarily content, or else we would have to say that Luke 1-2 is also aimed at a strictly Jewish/Jewish Christian audience.

On another note for everyone, where do we get the idea that Gematria is involved in this, rather than simple Biblical number symbology, ie 7 = Perfect, 777 would equal the height of perfection (namely God) as in 7 days of creation, 6 falls short of the perfect, 666 strikingly so, and that this is the number of a man.

[John Reece]

Yes, afterwards, as I went home and thought about it, my reply today would have been that Revelation is Judaic in an OT sense, since the writer quotes and alludes to so much from the OT. But that does not tell us about its intended audience. style is not necessarily content, or else we would have to say that Luke 1-2 is also aimed at a strictly Jewish/Jewish Christian audience.

Do you see any significance in the fact the Revelation is addressed to 7 churches?

On another note for everyone, where do we get the idea that Gematria is involved in this, rather than simple Biblical number symbology, ie 7 = Perfect, 777 would equal the height of perfection (namely God) as in 7 days of creation, 6 falls short of the perfect, 666 strikingly so, and that this is the number of a man.

Which rules out identity revealed by Gematria?

[Solly]

Do you see any significance in the fact the Revelation is addressed to 7 churches?

As I stand here on one leg, I would have to say there probably is a significance, just as Rev itself is full of 7s, most if not all about the action of God.
Rev_1:4; Rev_1:11; Rev_1:12; Rev_1:16; Rev_1:20; Rev_2:1; Rev_3:1; Rev_4:5; Rev_5:1; Rev_5:5; Rev_5:6; Rev_6:1; Rev_8:2; Rev_8:6; Rev_10:3; Rev_10:4; Rev_11:13; Rev_12:3; Rev_13:1; Rev_15:1; Rev_15:6; Rev_15:7; Rev_15:8; Rev_16:1; Rev_17:1; Rev_17:3; Rev_17:7; Rev_17:9; Rev_17:10; Rev_17:11; Rev_21:9;


Which rules out identity revealed by Gematria?

As such it does not rule if out, but I would ask what rules it in? You are doing a fine work showing us all the OT quotes and allusions in Rev, and yet for this we are expected to go outside the Bible to Jewish superstition - unless you or a. n. other can show how the Bible does give us a reason to do it this way.
Perhaps we have gotten so used to seeing gematria used to tell us what this is, that the question needs asking: why?

[Solly]

(Rev 1:4) John, to the seven assemblies that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from God, who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before his throne;

(Rev 1:11) saying, "What you see, write in a book and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

(Rev 1:12) I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. Having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands.

(Rev 1:16) He had seven stars in his right hand. Out of his mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.

(Rev 1:20) the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lampstands are seven assemblies.

(Rev 2:1) "To the angel of the assembly in Ephesus write: "He who holds the seven stars in his right hand, he who walks among the seven golden lampstands says these things:

(Rev 3:1) "And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: "He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: "I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

(Rev 4:5) Out of the throne proceed lightnings, sounds, and thunders. There were seven lamps of fire burning before his throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

(Rev 5:1) I saw, in the right hand of him who sat on the throne, a book written inside and outside, sealed shut with seven seals.

(Rev 5:5) One of the elders said to me, "Don't weep. Behold, the Lion who is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome; he who opens the book and its seven seals."

(Rev 5:6) I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

(Rev 6:1) I saw that the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying, as with a voice of thunder, "Come and see!"

(Rev 8:2) I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

(Rev 8:6) The seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

(Rev 10:3) He cried with a loud voice, as a lion roars. When he cried, the seven thunders uttered their voices.

(Rev 10:4) When the seven thunders sounded, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from the sky saying, "Seal up the things which the seven thunders said, and don't write them."

(Rev 11:13) In that day there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

(Rev 12:3) Another sign was seen in heaven. Behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven crowns.

(Rev 13:1) Then I stood on the sand of the sea. I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads. On his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads, blasphemous names.

(Rev 15:1) I saw another great and marvelous sign in the sky: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them God's wrath is finished.

(Rev 15:6) The seven angels who had the seven plagues came out, clothed with pure, bright linen, and wearing golden sashes around their breasts.

(Rev 15:7) One of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.

(Rev 15:8) The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power. No one was able to enter into the temple, until the seven plagues of the seven angels would be finished.

(Rev 16:1) I heard a loud voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God on the earth!"

(Rev 17:1) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here. I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who sits on many waters,

(Rev 17:3) He carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored animal, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

(Rev 17:7) The angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

(Rev 17:9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.

(Rev 17:10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.

(Rev 17:11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.

(Rev 21:9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, "Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb's bride."

[Solly]

(Rev 4:8) The four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within. They have no rest day and night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come!"

Difficult to have seven wings

(Rev 13:18) Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is six hundred sixty-six.

[John Reece]

Revelation 13

18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate (yhqisatw = 3rd person singular aorist imperative of yhqizw) the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. (ESV)

From BAGD:

yhqizw count (up), calculate, reckon (literally 'with pebbles')

Does that not call for numbers?

Does the fact that Kabbalists use Gematria mean that any use of numbers in this case is going "outside the Bible to Jewish superstition"?

[Solly]

That's good, thank you for that.

On the second point, it comes down to the origins of gematria methods; is it an allowable Biblical method, or is it just this once, or is it like the Bible Code. I'm not criticising, mind you, just Fides Quærens Intellectum. :cheers:

[John Reece]

That's good, thank you for that.

On the second point, it comes down to the origins of gematria methods; is it an allowable Biblical method, or is it just this once, or is it like the Bible Code. I'm not criticising, mind you, just Fides Quærens Intellectum. :cheers:

Unless I see an exegetical justification in other cases, I will continue to consider it only "just this once", where it is indeed exegetically justified

:highfive:

[Solly]

Thanks again John; I'll try and look into this over the long weekend.

Blessings

slly

[Solly]

Weekend research.

4[/sup], [Online] Available: Logos Library System.]
13:1–18 The antichrist and his prophet
The dragon, in his determination to annihilate the church, calls to his aid not one helper but two. The first beast comes out of the sea (1) showing its character as a sea monster like the dragon himself, and therefore demonic. The second beast comes out of the earth (11). This difference corresponds to that between behemoth the land monster (Jb. 40:15–24) and leviathan the sea monster (Jb. 41); in the prophetic and apocalyptic literature these creatures typify God-opposing powers (see e.g. Is. 27:1; 51:9; Ezk. 32). Consonant with this, the dragon, the beast from the sea and the beast from the land form a kind of evil trinity (see 16:13). Satan claims to be God; the antichrist is the christ of Satan; and the beast from the earth performs the function of an unholy spirit. The antichrist persuades the world to worship the devil; he has a fatal wound but lives (3), in a monstrous imitation of the Christ of God. The second beast seeks to persuade the world to worship the antichrist by his witness in word and deed, as the Holy Spirit witnesses to God’s Christ; and through the mark of the beast (itself a parody of the seal of God) he creates a devilish imitation of the church of Christ. So John depicts the world as divided between followers of the Truth and followers of the Lie.
The mark is described as the name of the beast or the number of his name. Many ancient languages did not have figures for numbers but used instead the letters of the alphabet (a = 1, b = 2, c = 3 and so on). This made it possible for a name to be represented by the number obtained through adding the numerical values of the letters of the name. For example, there is a piece of graffiti on a wall in Pompeii which reads, ‘I love her whose name is 545’. Doubtless the young lady knew whose name that was! So also despite the many possibilities that the number 666 yields, it is virtually certain that the individual thereby indicated was known in all the churches addressed by John, and probably far wider. The name Nero Caesar transliterated into Hebrew from Greek yields the number 666. If it is put into Hebrew from Latin it gives the number 616, which is read in some early manuscripts of Revelation. The number would have been seized on in apocalyptic circles where Hebrew (the language of the OT) was known. For Christians, 666 was an eminently suitable figure for the antichrist; it represents a consistent falling short of the divine perfection suggested by 777, whereas the name Jesus in Greek totals 888! Therein lies one aspect of the difference between the devil’s christ and the Christ of God: the pseudo-christ falls as far short of being the deliverer of the world as the Christ of God exceeds all the hopes of humankind for a Saviour.


The mark of the best reproduced either his name of the number formed by adding together the numerical values represented by the letters of his name. The solutions of this riddle amount to almost as many [as 666]. Gunkel and others insist that it does not represent the name of an individual; the phrase it is the number of a man simply means ‘it is a human computation’ in distinction from a supernatural reckoning. Such commentators frequently regard the number as a symbol for the constant falling short of the perfection by antichrist, since each digit is one less than seven; it is pointed out that the Sibylline Oracles (i. 328) remarks that the number of the name of Jesus is 888 , one better than perfection [and also the day of resurrection!]. Gunkel does not accept this suggestion, but thinks the number serves to identify the roman empire with the chaos monster, from which the portrait of the dragon and the beast [land and sea] is drawn in this book (‘Primal Chaos’ in Hebrew = 666). The idea has been unduly minimized on the ground that John’s readers could hardly have stumbled on such a remote solution, since they knew only Greek. Accordingly the modern exegete favours instead the solution ‘Nero Caesar’, written defectively in Hebrew! But if the former would be unintelligible to Greek-speaking people, so would the latter, even though ‘Nero Caesar’ transcribed into Hebrew from a Latin spelling gives the alternative number 616, which is found in some mss.
Strange as it may appear, it is not impossible that all the above solutions may be right. It is likely that John used a Hebrew source in this chapter, the original name was a Hebrew one, and the number was not invented by him. As he knew the chaos myth and was a Hebrew, the name [I]Tehom Qadmonah ‘Primal Chaos’ would not be beyond him. Further it is suggested in our interpretations of 17.8,11 that the prophet fused the myths of the chaos monster and Nero Redidivus to form his picture of the antichrist; the adversaries of the church so perfectly embodied the ancient power of evil that they could be described under the same historical summary, viz, they were and are not, and are about to come up out fo the abyss, and go into perdition. A number, therefore, which could denote that evil principle as well as the Empire and individual in which it should be incarnated was more than heart could wish for, a perfect representation of devilry.


The [first] beast is not alone. John turns his attention to a second beast, a henchman of the first. In that he secures worship of the image of the first beast (v12) the second seems to stand for a priesthood. If we had an illustration of the first beast in the Roman Empire we will see the imperial priesthood in the second…
The following important statement provides a means by which the intelligent reader (one who has insight) can compute the beast’s number. [snip general remarks on gematria] The possibilities [of finding a name] are almost endless. In modern times the most favoured solution is ‘Nero Cæsar’ (if the final letter [n] be omitted to give the equivelent latin spelling of the name the total is 616, the variant reading). But to get this result we must use the Grek form of the Latin name, transliterated into Hebrew characters, and with a variant spelling at that (the vowel letter y has to be omitted from qysr). This solution has its attractions, but no-one has shown why a Hebrew name with an unusual spelling should be employed in a Greek writing. It is also to be borne in mind that in the ancient world when Nero was a considerable figure (the Nero redidivus myth is thought by many critics to underlie parts of Revelation), this solution was apparently never thought of. [snip comment son Irenæus and Lateinos].
Other solutions are put forward, but none has won wide accetpance. It is posible that such solutions are on the wrong lines and that we should understand the expression purely in terms of the symbolism of numbers. If we take the sum of the values represented by the letters of the name Iesous, the Greek name Jesus, it comes to 888; each digit is one more than seven, the perfect number. But 666 yields the opposite phenomenon, for each digit falls short.

And it should be noted that Morris’ own pointer to this figure being the priesthood precludes its reference to Nero, who was the one worshipped in the Cæsar cult.

, The Pulpit Commentary, 1989 Kegan Paul, Trench, Trübner & Co, Ltd, London]
The last clause has no article. Compare the expression ‘Here is the patience,’ etc. in v 10, where it relates to what precedes. Here it relates to what follows. The form of the expression is frequent in John’s writings (cf. 1 Jn 2.6; 3.16,19; 4.10; etc.) The plain meaning seems to be that men may display their wisdom and understanding in discovering the meaning of the number of the beast. But the interpretation which Auberlin gives may be correct, that as the first beast is met and vanquished by patience and faith, so this second beast is to be met by wisdom. This agrees with our interpretation of this second beast as symbolizing self-deceit. It is the ‘number of man’; that is, it describes symbolically something which is peculiarly a characteristic of mankind. John’s own use of numbers throughout the Apocalypse is, as we have repeatedly seen, symbolical of general qualities, and does not indicate either individuals or exact numbers. We are justified, therefore, in interpreting the number symbolically.
John nowhere else makes such use of a number [for calculation of letters], though numbers form such a prominent feature of the book.
The meaning ‘a number to be calculated according to man’s methods’ may not be the meaning at all, and if it is, the method would surely signify the symbolical method which John adopts through the rest of the book, as being a language perfectly well understood by himself and his readers.
We refer the reader to Dr. Salmon’s ‘Introduction to the New Testament,’ p 291f. A commonly perceived interpretation makes the name of the beast to be Nero Cæsar, written in Hebrew characters RSQ NWRN; and as the name may be written Neron or Nero, the difference of the final n (=50) is thought to account for the discrepancy in the manuscript authorities. Dr Salmon shows that Nero could not have been intended, because (1) the prophecy in that case would have been immediately falsified; (2) the solution would have been known to the early Christians; but it was not lknown, according to Irenæus. Dr Salmon then adds, p300 [p230-231 7th edition] “There are three rules by the help of which I believe an ingenious man could find the required sum in any given name, First, if the proper name by itself will not yield it, add a title; secondly, fi the sum cannot be found in Greek, try Hebrew of Latin; thirdly, do not be too particular about the spelling.”

7[/sup]]
The use of a language different from that to ewhich the name properly belongs allows a good deal of latitude in the transliteration. For example, if Nero will not do, try Cæsar Nero. If this will not succeed in Greek, try Hebrew; and in writing Kaisar in Hebrew be sure to leave out the Yod, which would make the sum too much by ten. We cannot infer much from the fact that a key fits the lock if it is a lock in which amlost any key will turn. p 231
We must suppose that the intention of the Apocalypse was understood at the time it was published. For otherwise what object could there be in the work? It was intended, we are told, to inspire in Christians certain hopes and expectations; and in order to have this effect, its general purpose, at least, must have been made plain. And yet the knowledge of the writer’s meaning completely perished. Irenæus, separated from the book by only one generation [or at least John, if one accepts a pre70 Ad origin), and professing to be able to report the tradition concerning the number of the beast handed down by men who had seen John face to face, is utterly ignorant of its purport. The solution for 666 is quite unknown to him, and he is so far from connecting the book with the times of Nero as to refer the work to the reign of Domitian. p 225

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ARTICLE: BEASTS, DRAGON, SEA, CONFLICT MOTIF
The dragon, the beasts and the sea in Revelation (see Revelation, Book of) constitute a complex of evil powers that war against God and Christ and instigate conflict between humans.
As with the dragon from which the beast gets its authority, the description of the beast borrows from the description of the four beasts in Daniel 7:2–7. This beast parodies the Lamb: the horned Lamb appeared to have been killed (Rev 5:6); although the horned beast received an apparently fatal blow to one of its heads, the beast recovered. Again, the worship ascribed to the beast by its followers, those whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life—"Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?" (Rev 13:4)—is a conscious parody on the acknowledgment of God’s greatness in such passages as Exodus 15:11. Many scholars believe that the historical referent of this image is the Roman emperors, many of whom laid claim to divinity and demanded the worship of their subjects—specifically the emperor Nero, whose death and (so it is alleged by many) expected return at the head of a Parthian army are seen as equivalent to a death and resurrection.
Just as in Canaanite mythology the sea creature Leviathan is often accompanied by the oxlike land creature Behemoth, so in Revelation the beast from the sea has as its partner a second beast, one that arises from the earth (as distinct from the sea—or perhaps “the land” [i.e., Judah]). This second beast is a demonic counterpart to the Holy Spirit, a “false prophet” (Rev 20:10) who directs the worship of the “earth-dwellers” to the antichrist, just as the Holy Spirit directs attention to Christ. This second beast performs miracles that convince the “earth-dwellers” to worship an image of the beast from the sea and to wear the beast’s mark (that is, its name or number of its name) on right hand or forehead.
Most scholars believe that the Seer is following a practice, common in his day, of using a number to signify a word, the numerical values of whose letters add up to that number (since in both Greek and Hebrew letters did double duty as numbers), and hold that the reference is to either Nero or Domitian, both of whose names and titles can with a little ingenuity be written in a form whose letters yield the sum of 666 (or, spelled differently, the “six hundred and sixteen” that is found in some manuscripts). It seems more likely, however, that the Seer intends to indicate not a specific individual but rather the merely human status of the beast: “six hundred and sixty-six” falls short in each digit of the perfect number, seven; in contrast, as Sibylline Oracles 1.326-30 points out, the name Jesus has a numerical value of 888 (that is, exceeding in each digit the perfect number). If, as seems likely, the first beast represents the Roman political power, the second beast may represent the religious officials who were responsible for conducting the ceremonies demanded by the state (see Religions, Greco-Roman).

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Article: REVELATION, BOOK OF
If one asks how Greek-speaking congregations could have known that, the answer is that it almost certainly arose among Hebrew- and Aramaic-speaking Jews; they had no reason to love Nero (the Roman-Jewish war began in his reign), and it would have become common knowledge among the churches, just as Abba and Maranatha became known among them all. Confirmation of this is found in an alternative reading of Revelation 13:18 in some manuscripts; that is, 616, which is the Hebrew number of the Latin form of Nero. By contrast it was early known among Christians that the name Jesus in Greek totals 888, which represents an advance upon perfection (777), as the antichrist shows a consistent falling below it. That indicates that the antichrist of Satan falls as far short of being the deliverer of humanity as the Christ of God exceeds all the hopes of humanity for a redeemer.

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But the most popular proposal among scholars today is “Nero Caesar.” Although his name comes out to 1,005 in Greek (which would have been obvious, because a familiar wordplay on that number of his name had circulated throughout the Empire’s graffiti), his name comes out to “666” if transliterated into Hebrew. If John intends an allusion to Nero here (see comment on 13:1–10), either he expects his readers to know to switch to Hebrew letters (probably with the help of more skilled members of the congregation), or he and they had already used “666” in this manner. (This calculation requires using the Greek pronunciation Neron-Kaisar in Hebrew letters, with appropriate Hebrew numerical values: N = 50, r = 200, n = 6, K = 100, s = 60, r = 200. Hebrew used only consonants. But the Sibylline Oracles, a Jewish document composed in Greek, does its gematria in Greek, not Hebrew; most of its readers would have been able to read only the former, being unable even to transliterate a name into proper Hebrew letters. Jewish scholars who used Hebrew incorporated many Greek loanwords, but John’s readers would need either some help or prior knowledge to discern his point.)

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None of the solutions above has been found completely satisfactory. Perhaps the best observation is that 666 consistently (three times) falls short of the number of perfection, 7, and the number of Christ, 888. Rather than refer to a specific name, 666 may indicate that the person will be a parody of Christ. He will not come up to perfection, but as the prostitute of Revelation 17 mimics the faithful woman of Revelation 12 and the dragon in Revelation 12 mimics Christ in Revelation 19, so the beast mimics the incarnate Christ, being the embodiment of evil (the devil not being capable of true incarnation). Beyond this we can only observe that when such a personage appears, those who are wise in John’s terms (which means first of all that they have divine insight) will recognize him and see that 666 does indeed fit.

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Article: Mark of the Beast.
It is possible that John merely intended the number to be symbolic of what the beast and his followers represent: humankind in their ultimate rebellion against God, his Lamb, and the followers of the Lamb. John explains in 13:18 that the number 666 is the number of man. The number 7 is well established as a number of completeness or perfection. The number 6, being one less than 7, may symbolize humankind, which falls short of perfection. Irenaeus notes that the image set up by Nebuchadnezzar was 60 cubits high by 6 cubits wide. The number 666 could well personify the imperfection of man, even implying in the triple number the unholy trinity of the dragon, antichrist, and the false prophet. The identity of those who follow the Lamb or the beast is self-evident to the observer, whether it is the first century or the eschatological future. The vision calls John and his audience to discern the spirit of sinful humanity that accompanies the antichrist rather than to decode his identity.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

IIRC correctly David Chilton in Days of Vengeance agrees with many of the above interpretations that the Land Beast is a Puppet of the Sea Beast.

Of couse as a preterist he sees the Sea Beast as Rome and the Land Beast as apostate Israel. Where Israel rejects the true King (Jesus) in favor of a colaboration with Rome to 1) Crucify (sp?) Jesus and 2) persecute Christians.

IOW when the Jewish leaders, in there desire to kill Jesus, stated "We have no king but Ceasar" they were in fact "trading the truth for a lie". In fact, they were rejecting the true King for a false one.


:2cents:

[Solly]

IIRC correctly David Chilton in Days of Vengeance agrees with many of the above interpretations that the Land Beast is a Puppet of the Sea Beast.

Of couse as a preterist he sees the Sea Beast as Rome and the Land Beast as apostate Israel. Where Israel rejects the true King (Jesus) in favor of a colaboration with Rome to 1) Crucify (sp?) Jesus and 2) persecute Christians.

IOW when the Jewish leaders, in there desire to kill Jesus, stated "We have no king but Ceasar" they were in fact "trading the truth for a lie". In fact, they were rejecting the true King for a false one.
:2cents:

Hmmm, except we were looking at the interpretation of the second beast being Nero, as per 666 calculations by some (although I don't accept it). The interpretation above would seem to undermine it completely, and make the understanidng of 666 even more difficult - what is the preterist calculation anyway, given the above analysis from Chilton? But I think it is reaching to say that Israel encouraged the worship of Rome, since it was opposition to Rome that led to its downfall.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Hmmm, except we were looking at the interpretation of the second beast being Nero, as per 666 calculations by some (although I don't accept it). The interpretation above would seem to undermine it completely, and make the understanidng of 666 even more difficult - what is the preterist calculation anyway, given the above analysis from Chilton? But I think it is reaching to say that Israel encouraged the worship of Rome, since it was opposition to Rome that led to its downfall.
Well Chilton, IIRC acknowledges the Nero conection, but didn't seem to think much of it. On this point (and many others) I disagree with him.

I see the beast as being both the Roman Empire and Nero as the titular head and de facto human representative of the Empire.

I don't think (and remember I am going from memory and I am old :wink:) that Chilton was suggesting (and if he was I disagree) that Israel was encouraging the worship of Rome.

What Israel did (IMHO) was to state their preference of anything rather than accept their true King, Jesus.

Example: As you pointed out the Jews were not overly fond of the Roman Empire. Yet in their desire to kill (and therby reject) Jesus, the claimed, "We have no King but Ceasar." They hated Rome, but they hated Christ more. They hated Rome but they hated Christians more by consdpiring with Rome to persecute Christians.

[Jude3b]

The Greek letters of the word "Lateinos" (Latin), the historical language of Rome in all its official acts, amount to 666. In Greek, L is 30, a is 1, t is 300, e is 5, i is 10, n is 50, o is 70, and s is 200, a total of 666. This same word also means "Latin man" and is but the Greek form of the name Romulus, from which the city of Rome was named. This name in Hebrew, Romiith, also totals 666.

[Joe Gofish]

Preterists apply the instructions John left to figure it out: Calculate!



The head and hand are symbolic for the thought and actions of man, and so those who follow the Beast think like him and act like him - i.e. persecute Christians and discriminate against them.

:studyhound:
READ JOHN 6:66 WOW

[dizzle]

The Greek letters of the word "Lateinos" (Latin), the historical language of Rome in all its official acts, amount to 666. In Greek, L is 30, a is 1, t is 300, e is 5, i is 10, n is 50, o is 70, and s is 200, a total of 666. This same word also means "Latin man" and is but the Greek form of the name Romulus, from which the city of Rome was named. This name in Hebrew, Romiith, also totals 666.

:looney:

[Hitch]

Well Chilton, IIRC acknowledges the Nero conection, but didn't seem to think much of it. On this point (and many others) I disagree with him.

I see the beast as being both the Roman Empire and Nero as the titular head and de facto human representative of the Empire.

I don't think (and remember I am going from memory and I am old :wink:) that Chilton was suggesting (and if he was I disagree) that Israel was encouraging the worship of Rome.

What Israel did (IMHO) was to state their preference of anything rather than accept their true King, Jesus.

Example: As you pointed out the Jews were not overly fond of the Roman Empire. Yet in their desire to kill (and therby reject) Jesus, the claimed, "We have no King but Ceasar." They hated Rome, but they hated Christ more. They hated Rome but they hated Christians more by consdpiring with Rome to persecute Christians.Hmmmmmm...


As .I believe it was you who said earlier, when the jews cried 'We have no king but ceasar' there was nothing left but the blood letting itself. Their cup of apostacy was overflowing. Certainly this is what caused the whore's drunkeness. And the whore always hates her customer...

But its hard to think of a more obvious illustration of statism than Israel choosing ceasar over Messiah, in the flesh. The fallen bride has persued her pagan lust and will justly burn.

[eschaton]

The Greek letters of the word "Lateinos" (Latin), the historical language of Rome in all its official acts, amount to 666. In Greek, L is 30, a is 1, t is 300, e is 5, i is 10, n is 50, o is 70, and s is 200, a total of 666. This same word also means "Latin man" and is but the Greek form of the name Romulus, from which the city of Rome was named. This name in Hebrew, Romiith, also totals 666.

I think Irenaeus refers to the Lateinos idea in his discussion of the number in Book V. chapters 28-30 of Against the heresies.