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wienerdog
March 24th 2003, 11:25 PM
The following can be found at www.andrewsullivan.com

Whose War?
A Roll-Call of Architects

Whose war is this? If it succeeds, it will have many authors, as victories always do. If it fails in any measurable way, its architects will be strikingly few, restricted to the handful of leaders who are required to take responsibility regardless of merit or cause. So perhaps now is the best moment for proposing the true orchestrators of this, the first full-scale invasion of the twenty-first century - while wet fingers are still thrust nervously upwards in the air. And, for all the easy judgments about this being "Bush's war," it seems to me that the picture is immensely more complicated than that. History is rarely so free of irony that the actual initiator of hostilities is the real force behind them. Others lie behind him, and others still behind them. And this war, perhaps more than many others, is laden with irony.

It is, first and foremost, the United Nations' war. Without the U.N., it would never have happened. Indeed, without the U.N., it wouldn't have even been necessary. Back in 1991, U.S. and U.K. forces were only a few hundred miles behind the positions they advanced to in the middle of last week. Saddam was reeling, after a coalition invasion to repel his aggression against Kuwait. Both the Kurds in the north of Iraq and the Shi'a in the South, emboldened by the war in Kuwait and encouraged by Washington, launched an uprising against the same tyrant we are still battling today. With American air-cover, they could have succeeded. But the Americans, in the greatest military miscalculation of the last few decades, hung back. Then-president George H.W. Bush insisted that his war aims did not include the removal of Saddam Hussein, but were limited to the liberation of a small oil company known as Kuwait.

Why, after sending hundreds of thousands of troops halfway around the globe, did Bush suddenly turn modest? Because the United Nations was the rubric under which he fought the war; the terms of his enormous coalition were dictated by the U.N.; and those terms were strictly limited to the reversal of Iraq's invasion, and nothing more. In one of the loveliest paradoxes of this battle, the U.N. therefore laid the groundwork for its subsequent self-destruction twelve years later. Without the U.N.'s restrictions on American force twelve years ago, Saddam would not be around today. Any non-U.N., American-led coalition with any sense of military opportunity, would have finished off the old Stalinist more than a decade ago. 1991 was therefore, in one sense, the U.N.'s post-Cold War high-point. Too bad it guaranteed its future nadir.

In the second place, this is Bill Clinton's war. Next to Saddam, Clinton was the biggest and most surprising beneficiary of the 1991 defeat-from-victory. Then-president Bush never acquired the full-bore victory Saddam's fall would have guaranteed; and as the economy worsened, the prudent president got blamed for excessive concern with foreign affairs. Clinton popped up as a natural foil in American politics, dedicated to the economy before foreign policy, a passionate but nervous multilateralist, a believer in soft rather than hard power, a man the Europhiles could suddenly warm to, if only because he could be relied upon to do as little in foreign policy as Europe's elites were comfortable with. But Saddam, menacingly, endured. And Clinton, like many domestically-oriented Democrats, couldn't afford the appearance of military weakness.

So we had the sanctions regime and the inspections regime. We had abrupt clashes, long somewhat successful police work under U.N. inspections, but no real breakthrough with regard to Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. Worse, precisely because Saddam remained in power - thanks to the United Nations - American troops were required to stay in the region in large numbers to maintain some sort of deterrence. Where did they stay? Saudi Arabia. Who noticed this? One religious fanatic, Osama bin Laden. What was the result? The forces of Islamist fundamentalism shifted their focus from the corrupt regimes in their own region to the super-power thousands of miles away. If you want a direct, irrefutable link between Saddam and 9/11, you have to look no further than the consequences of the first Gulf War. If there had been no U.N.-mandated half-victory, Osama would never have had his direct provocation. And in one of those perfect circles of historical irony, Osama's revenge has led just as directly to Saddam's final come-uppance.

That twist, however, didn't come as a consequence of September 11, 2001. It came as a result of the final Iraqi-U.N. impasse in 1998, when the inspections regime collapsed in the face of Saddamite deception and intransigence. In response, president Clinton formally shifted U.S. policy from containment to regime change. Yes, this was Clinton's policy. It is still Clinton's policy. Which is why, at some level, this is also Clinton's war. The subsequent U.S. and U.K. bombing helped reduce the immediate threat of Saddam's weapons, but deferred once again the real day of reckoning, as the Americans and British cast about for ways to be rid of Saddam short of full-scale invasion.

And at the same time, the Clinton administration also created the clear precedent for the war we are witnessing today: Kosovo. In retrospect, the Kosovo campaign was the first and last test of a bizarre new world coalition, the coalition that collapsed in the first two months of 2003. A military hyper-power agreed to fight a war under terms in part dictated by European allies whose military capacity was negligible. Unequals had to pretend to be partners. The goal was not just to prevent genocide in Europe, but to save an alliance strained by sheer military imbalance to the point of absurdity. The result, as Robert Kagan has memorably argued, was the American and European realization that this imbalance was bound to strain the alliance almost to breaking point. General Wesley Clark, the commander of NATO forces in Kosovo, ruefully recalled later that the need to maintain a constant consensus between Europeans and Americans hampered the ability to send a direct message to Milosevic, prolonged the war and protected the enemy. This didn't matter in a case where America's own security interests were irrelevant. But it was a dark omen for future conflicts when real interests might collide.

In Kosovo, the U.N.'s failure to get consensus - Russian threatened to veto the military operation in the Security Council - showed that universal agreement could not be achieved even in the face of European genocide. And even within NATO, Europe's obsession with means collided brusquely with America's practical attempt to achieve clear military ends. "It was always the Americans who pushed for the escalation to new, more sensitive targets ... and always the Allies who expressed doubts and reservations," Clark later wrote. At a meeting of allied military officials a few months after the war, one NATO minister summed up the consensus by saying simply "we never want to do this again." "No one laughed," Clark recalls. It was a prophetic moment, the essential Clintonian precedent for the breach that France and Germany turned into a chasm in the winter of 2002 and 2003.

And yes, this is also the neoconservatives' war. By this I don't mean the alleged cabal of Likudniks infiltrating American foreign policy and directing the might of the superpower to serve the interests of a tiny, oil-free strip of land at the east end of the Mediterranean. By this, I mean simply that this war represents the winning of a long argument among Washington's policy elites about the future of American interests in the Middle East. I witnessed much of this debate first-hand, editing the critical neoconservative-neoliberal Washington weekly, the New Republic, for five years in the early 1990s. When George H. W. Bush and James Baker pulled back from the brink of victory in 1991, I heard a long, loud and tenacious wail go up among a whole bevy of Washington neocon intellectuals. When then-president Bush leveraged his half-victory in Kuwait into the Madrid conference and followed the European script that the Arab-Israeli conflict was the real source of instability in the Middle East, that wail got even louder. And it slowly morphed into arch-skepticism as the Rabin and Barak governments vested so much effort in the Oslo peace process. When Rabin and Arafat shook hands on the White House lawn, millions felt a sense of promise and hope, but in Washington, a hundred neocon eye-brows arched.

None of this will work, the neoconservatives harrumphed. Their argument went roughly as follows: Our hesitation in Iraq emboldened Israel's and the West's enemies, and made a real peace less, not more, available. Our abrupt retreat from Somalia under Clinton, our weak response to Islamist terrorism in the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, and our recourse to weak and porous sanctions against Saddam - all these moves simply galvanized those elements in the Arab world that didn't want peace with Israel, but desired Israel's destruction and the West's humiliation. My view at the time was sympathetic to the neoconservative analysis but still skeptical. Like anyone else, I wanted the Oslo process to work. Like most others, I wanted to believe that al Qaeda and Hezbollah and Hamas were reasonable political entities, people you could at some point negotiate with, not murderous, implacable, anti-Semitic fanatics. Even though al Qaeda's attacks increased slowly in ambition and scale, I saw no reason to believe that they were quite the menace that many neocons insisted they were.

Two things shifted the balance to the neoconservatives in Washington more than anything else. The first was Yassir Arafat's refusal at Camp David and Taba to accept the sweeping deal Barak offered for West Bank autonomy. Or to be more accurate, it wasn't Arafat's refusal to accept it that turned the tide. It was his refusal to offer any alternative whatsoever, except a return to the Intifada, and this time with suicide bombing as his main negotiating tool. And the second event, of course, was September 11 itself. For anyone who had hoped to arrive at some kind of negotiated settlement with the forces of Arab and Islamist jihad, 9/11 was an epiphany. Everything those crazy old neocons had been saying suddenly had new-found credibility. Maybe they were right after all - and only force and power could deter the Islamist fanatics and bring about a Middle East peace.

When George W. Bush looked around him in the ashes of the World Trade Center for an analysis of what had gone wrong and a comprehensive strategy to put it right, the neoconservatives were the only credible advocates who had an actual plan. They weren't a cabal. And they weren't natural Bush allies. Men like the Pentagon's Richard Perle or Douglas Feith or Paul Wolfowitz or the Washington Post's Charles Krauthammer and Bob Kagan, or the New Republic's Lawrence Kaplan or the Weekly Standard's Bill Kristol: all these had been bitter foes of Bush's father, brutal critics of his foreign policy. The Washington Post and New Republic had endorsed Al Gore for president. The Weekly Standard had backed John McCain in the primaries. The reason they rallied behind Bush in the wake of 9/11 was simply because he was the president. And the reason Bush reached out to these theorists was because history had proved them right and disaster had proved them prescient.

So it's not surprising that the first White House meetings after 9/11 brought up Iraq as a target for counter-attack almost immediately. This was not because Saddam was directly implicated. It was because war had broken out. In a war against Islamist terrorism, the neocons persuasively argued, you had to look at the bigger picture if you wanted victory rather than half-measures and semi-success. If this was war, going after the mere perpetrators of one calamity was not enough. That was the hallmark of mere police work, not warfare. It was Clintonism and Clintonism had catastrophically failed. What you had to do was survey the whole network of terror, its state sponsors, and, in particular, the relationship between all this and weapons of mass destruction. You had to think deep and you had to think big. Saddam was by no means the only link in this chain. But he was a brittle link. And there was already an international legal case that legitimized direct action. If you wanted to remake the entire region, Iraq was an obvious place to start.

Of course, the Taliban came first. But there was never any question that Saddam would have to be dealt with next. And the precedents laid down by Bill Clinton and the U.N. always made the universal, Security Council-backed route a deeply perilous and dubious one. Dick Cheney never bought the case. But Powell and Blair insisted on trying, and the president, much more pragmatic than his critics are prepared to concede, went for the U.N. route. Was he wrong to have had war in mind from the outset? After the experience of the 1990s, surely not. In his view, war had already been brought to the United States. And this humble, instinctually modest president in foreign affairs, demanded a comprehensive strategy to grapple with the gravest attack on American soil in American history. The neocons had such an analysis. Their rivals - the multilateral purists - had nothing but piece-meal initiatives and they also had recent history against them. Critically, Bush also remembered his father's experience. Again, Bush's critics get it half right and therefore completely wrong. Bush isn't out to avenge his father. He's out not to repeat his father's mistakes. This war will therefore not end with Saddam's survival. Not this time. No premature withdrawals now.

Lastly, this is Tony Blair's war. Watching his presence from the American side of the Atlantic is to be amazed by the way in which he has framed the terms of this conflict, its timing and its public meaning - in America as well as Britain. I know of no other recent precedent in which a British prime minister has had such an influence on American discourse, and therefore on the course of world events. Yes, Thatcher was and is revered among Americans, but primarily on the right and center. Blair commands respect on the American left and now something approaching shock and awe, to purloin a phrase, on the American right. This - along with a personal rapport with Bush and public loyalty and private consistency, two qualities deeply valued by the Bush family - has given the British premier unprecedented leverage over American power. Because of Blair, the world's sole hyper-power delayed its war for two months in a fruitless effort to paper over trans-Atlantic cracks that had been widening for a decade. Because of Blair, the realists in the Bush administration - Cheney and Rumsfeld - have seen their arguments complemented and sometimes superseded by the rhetoric of liberal internationalism. Partly because of Blair, the Democrats, still controlled by the Blair-friendly Clinton mafia, have failed to resist this war as fiercely as its left wing would like. And because of Blair, president Bush laid out the "roadmap" for peace between Israel and the Palestinians before, and not after, the war to depose Saddam.

Poodle? You have to be kidding. But Blair's leverage was all the more serious because it wasn't wielded for transparent reasons of British world influence. It seemed to Americans to come from obvious conviction about the threat of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, and from a genuine and perhaps unique understanding of what Americans went through on September 11. Maybe it was coming to the United States immediately after the massacre that did it. Maybe it was attending the Congress for Bush's historic September 20 address. But Blair convinced Americans that his sympathy wasn't restricted to human sentiment in the wake of tragedy, but also included analysis and policy that could turn such a tragedy toward good. And his ability to articulate those reasons, in ways that Bush couldn't, reassured the American centre and made 70 percent American public support for this war a possibility.

And, yes, this is also, in the last resort, president Bush's war. To read the scathing accounts of his diplomacy in the European press, the caricature of his character that has become universal, the disparagement of his intellect, and the contempt for his strategy, is to experience a certain amount of cognitive dissonance these past few months. This simply isn't the president I've observed for the past two years or so, and I started as a skeptic of Bush and a supporter of John McCain. In fact, it's hard not to feel that the personal demonization of this man is less an accurate portrayal of his role at this moment of history than a way for others to vent their own feelings of impotence, or irrelevance, or frustration.

But one thing I can relay from Washington. The closer you get to people who actually know him, who deal with him, who observe him, the greater the respect you hear. In a cabinet of heavy-weights, you'd expect in these tense circumstances a certain amount of grandstanding, of leaks to the press about who is really running the country, a buzz of rivalry and condescension and personal spin that is actually the norm in most administrations. But instead, you hear something rather different: that Bush really is in charge, that he has earned the deepest respect of those with far more experience than he has, that he is as steady as he is calm, as determined as he is pragmatic. It's far too early to make judgments about this president's place in history, but I suspect the future will hold him in far higher regard than the present. He enters this new phase of the war with majorities in both Houses of Congress, with more public support than his father had in the first Gulf War, and with a military more expert and relatively powerful than any in the annals of world conflict. From being barely elected just over two years ago, that's some transformation, as impressive as Blair's. There will undoubtedly be ups and downs in the days and weeks and months ahead. But no one should doubt either this president's resolve or his ambition. For him this war is not a few days old but already a year and a half in duration. This campaign for Saddam is neither as dramatic as his critics charge nor as central as some of his supporters believe. It is just one part of an unfolding strategy to remake the world's security. That's why, at a deep level, this war is not one that Bush created or devised or laid the groundwork for. But it is a war whose course he has indelibly shaped and whose successful resolution he is determined to achieve. I wouldn't bet against him succeeding.

Eyeheart Pumpkin
March 24th 2003, 11:29 PM
Can I make a suggestion? Don't make posts that are the length of a small novel? The average reader is going to get tired of reading after the first three or four paragraphs. Everything you posted beyond that will be lost on 99% of the viewers. Instead, break it up into multiple posts. On the other hand, I guess that is difficult to do now that they've come up with this new collation function that automatically appends all your posts into one.

wienerdog
March 24th 2003, 11:34 PM
Yeah, I guess so. I just liked it. :smile:

Andrew Sullivan is kind of interesting: he's a conservative homosexual. I've been reading him for the last couple of months, and he never disappoints.

Epoetker
March 24th 2003, 11:52 PM
Let's see...just about nails everything I've been trying to get through Vorkosigan's thick skull. I like it. I really like it. Wonderful article, little doggie:thumb:

Captain Ochre
March 25th 2003, 02:06 AM
Today @ 03:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44196#post44196)
Eireann:

Can I make a suggestion? Don't make posts that are the length of a small novel? The average reader is going to get tired of reading after the first three or four paragraphs.


<snip out joke at Eireann's expense>
It would have been good-natured, but uneccesary. :smile:
I thought that it was so well-conceived and written that I read every bit of it.



Everything you posted beyond that will be lost on 99% of the viewers. Instead, break it up into multiple posts. On the other hand, I guess that is difficult to do now that they've come up with this new collation function that automatically appends all your posts into one.

IIRC, the mods want the larger articles posted all-at-once. Articles that exceed the character limitations may still appear in their entirety if permission is granted by the mods.

I can't fault the guy's analysis. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be done, but it looks like an accurate reading, to me.

Vorkosigan
March 25th 2003, 06:43 AM
Today @ 03:52 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44240#post44240)
Epoetker:

Let's see...just about nails everything I've been trying to get through Vorkosigan's thick skull. I like it. I really like it. Wonderful article, little doggie:thumb:


It left out the first ten years of our relationship with Hussein -- not to mention our involvement in putting the Ba'ath Party into power in Iraq in the first place. And our training and arming of Osama Bin Laden, and so on. And about a hundred other considerations, like the gas pipelines and oil politics that are really driving this mess. If you ignore history, the piece makes perfect sense.

Actually, the real issue here for me is that this is apparently a copyrighted piece. Don't you guys have a policy against posting copyrighted pieces here? Sooner or later this promiscuous posting of copyrighted stuff is going to come back to haunt you.

Vorkosigan

wienerdog
March 25th 2003, 07:22 AM
Oh. I just cut 'n pasted it from his website. My apologies.

Captain Ochre
March 25th 2003, 03:54 PM
To avoid impropriety or the appearance thereof, you could quote a small representative portion, or a review (or both) and then link to the original.
Vorkosigan could be happy.
We could all be happy.
:smile:

Epoetker
March 25th 2003, 09:24 PM
It left out the first ten years of our relationship with Hussein -- not to mention our involvement in putting the Ba'ath Party into power in Iraq in the first place. And our training and arming of Osama Bin Laden, and so on. And about a hundred other considerations, like the gas pipelines and oil politics that are really driving this mess. If you ignore history, the piece makes perfect sense.

Oh, I already knew about all that history, and what's more the relative irrelevance of that history. I have no reason to suspect that Andy Sullivan does not. Fact is, order and country lines in that section of the world has thus far almost always been established from without-that's why the French with their dictator-pleasing strategy think we're nuts for assuming otherwise. Now...let's see...if we have to ignore history...should we ignore the last 12 years of history, or the 10 years beyond that? Even so, Saddam and Osama are TRAITORS. Perfidious bastards. They took their training and used it against their former allies and their allies' friends. Perhpas the US should be faulted for not being omniscient about the true nature of their previous Cold War allies, but I'm truly failing to see why the neoconservatives are such a bad party to be in charge presently, considering that they're the ones intensely interested in rectifying the mistakes of the past. Are you saying there's something GOOD about OPEC, an abusive cartel that would be broken up in this country? Are you saying there's something BAD about the neoconservative idea that dictatorships that foment anti-Americanism and the terrorists it produces need to be opposed at every turned, and perhaps even have their regime changed when the opportunity presents itself?

Epoetker
March 25th 2003, 11:12 PM
Oh, and I found another WONDERFUL article by David Frum on the history of the "paleocons" ...and why they need to go.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6818

Vorkosigan
March 26th 2003, 02:15 AM
Oh, now I understand! We invade Iraq in an illegal war, put its citizens to the sword and trash its assets, because Hussein betrayed his allies....you mean, sort of like the US is doing now with France and the UN? So because Hussein is a bad guy, we suddenly acquire the right to murder his people to get rid of him?

The success of our strategy continues to amaze. Losing the War for Hearts and Minds in Iraq (Manchester Guardian reprint) (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0325-01.htm)

'pet, the NeoCons think US power is a fact-in-the-world, like gravity or earthquakes. They're about to find out that it is both finite and vulnerable. What do you think our position in East Asia and elsewhere is going to look like after we trash our alliances, ignore our allies, drive a truck through the international system we created and nurtured, burn up our treasury occupying Iraq, and debase our army in a long occupation.Marine scouts shot two Iraqi men yesterday when they were seen carrying Kalashnikovs. Each man was found to be carrying three magazines, but they never fired at the marines before they were killed. "They were pointing their weapons in an aggressive manner, and they were taken out," said Sgt Sprague. 'pet, what do you think our army is going to be like after that is multiplied across 20 million people and six years? The Germans pitched in beside French farmers in the initial invasion of France in 1940.....but look what happened years later.

Iraq does not exist in a vaccuum. What happens there has repercussions that are four-dimensional and extend to every other part of the world. There were other solutions to the problem of Hussein, who was not a threat to anyone when we invaded, and other ways to deal with the problem that do not threat US interests elsewhere, or reconfigure US foreign policy to serve the interests of a small sector of corporate America.

Are you saying there's something GOOD about OPEC, an abusive cartel that would be broken up in this country?

This is a ridiculous false dichotomy. Your position appears to be that the only way to be against something is to desire its complete and preferably bloody-as-possible destruction. There are many ways to be against OPEC. Supporting wind power and fuel cell research is just as effective, and does not requiring murdering innocent civilians caught up in an illegal war.

Are you saying there's something BAD about the neoconservative idea...

This is not a neoconservative idea, but a generally recognized one: dictatorships are bad.

that dictatorships that foment anti-Americanism and the terrorists it produces need to be opposed at every turned,

But again, you are stuck. Rumsfeld and his NeoCon cronies loved Hussein, "our strong right arm in the Middle East" or whatever Rumsfeld called him. Only after he miscalculated with Kuwait did they turn against him.

and perhaps even have their regime changed when the opportunity presents itself?

No "opportunity has presented itself." The Bush Administration has willfully disregarded international law in attacking Iraq after a long military buildup.

There's nothing bad about opposing evil. We are discussing tactics, not strategy. But opposition to evil need not take the position of destruction of innocents.

You see, 'pet, I spent some time working in the Taiwan independence movement. And after the movement got rolling in the late 1970s, democratic change was made in Taiwan peacefully. I could count on my fingers the number of people murdered by the government during the major period of change, when it had killed tens of thousands previously. It took time, and required patience, commitment and imagination, something NeoCons decidedly lack. But incredibly, and despite opposition from the world's richest political party allied with the US (and the NeoCons, who have opposed democracy in Taiwan), democracy has blossomed here. So I know, 'pet, that it can be done, because I've lived through and watched it happen.

It's easy to get mesmerized by the hard choices. But the irony of power is that the hard choices usually turn out to be mirages. And another irony of power which the NeoCons are about to find out is that the mystique of power depends on spare use of it. As any teacher could tell you, the more you use authority, the less you have. Remember the experience of Britain, whose shoddy army and poor performance in its colonial wars prompted Bismarck to remark when told the British army might intervene in a campaign that he'd send a policeman to have it arrested. That could very easily be us.

Vorkosigan

flipper
March 26th 2003, 02:29 AM
Vorkosigian said:


What do you think our position in East Asia and elsewhere is going to look like after we trash our alliances, ignore our allies, drive a truck through the international system we created and nurtured, burn up our treasury occupying Iraq, and debase our army in a long occupation.

Kickstart the US's manufacturing might and start outprodu... oh. Never mind.

Stay on top of the technology curve with our scientifically illiterate new generations? How long can that last? Especially if long-term terrorism means economic shakiness becomes a permanent state, visas are clamped down on, and the US starts to seem less appealing to foreigners.

Stagger under massive debts, all the while hoping that a new large scale terrorist attack doesn't happen to strip bare the last gears from an investment-driven economy?

Continue to be a major consumer of goods we don't make ourselves, so therefore remaining too valuable to the world's economy to risk any serious sanctions? I find this most plausible. Unfortunately, this is what makes us so vulnerable to economic warfare.

Other alternatives gratefully accepted, especially from opposing viewpoints.

Alden
March 26th 2003, 03:50 AM
Vork

How is this an illegal war? To whom?

Vorkosigan
March 26th 2003, 08:22 AM
Today @ 07:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45207#post45207)
Alden:

Vork

How is this an illegal war? To whom?

To the UN and the rest of the world. Also at home. Since UN member states can't attack one another without UN permission, and the UN treaty is the highest law of the land, under the Constitution, it is probably illegal at home as well. Not that legalities or democratic niceties bother the current Administration very much.

Vorkosigan

Ryokan
March 26th 2003, 10:38 AM
they shouldn't, since before the treaty they have a higher constitutional obligation to defend our nation, regardless of UN wishes.

Mr Stick71
March 26th 2003, 07:04 PM
My nation's Constitution mentions nothing of the U.N. I also don't recall voting any representative to the U.N. And nowhere do I see the U.N. doing anything to help the people of Iraq from a psychotic dictator. I saw the U.N. turn a blind eye to the cause of the Kosovars, the people of Rwanda, Cambodia, China, and a host of other nations. I have seen the U.N. condemn Israel just days after suicide bombers kill Israeli children. I'm sorry, but the U.N. does not have, nor deserve, my respect or my allegiance.

Vorkosigan
March 26th 2003, 07:18 PM
Today @ 02:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45313#post45313)
Ryokan:

they shouldn't, since before the treaty they have a higher constitutional obligation to defend our nation, regardless of UN wishes.


How is invading Iraq "defending our nation?" Iraq was no threat to the United States; indeed, it never was.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan
March 26th 2003, 07:21 PM
My nation's Constitution mentions nothing of the U.N. I also don't recall voting any representative to the U.N.

Like all ambassadors, that one is appointed by the President.

And nowhere do I see the U.N. doing anything to help the people of Iraq from a psychotic dictator.

You must have missed the humanitarian aid programs, the overflights, the sanctions, and various other programs.

I saw the U.N. turn a blind eye to the cause of the Kosovars, the people of Rwanda, Cambodia, China, and a host of other nations. I have seen the U.N. condemn Israel just days after suicide bombers kill Israeli children. I'm sorry, but the U.N. does not have, nor deserve, my respect or my allegiance.

I never said it deserved either, despite your overblown rhetoric. I did say the Constitution does, and it declares our signed and ratified treaties to be the law of the land.

Vorkosigan

Ryokan
March 26th 2003, 07:38 PM
See, Vorkosigan, whether or not Iraq is a threat, not all this other overblown stuff, should have been the defining issue of the debate, which it wasn't (which is both sides fault). And I have outlined several times why I deem him to be a threat to US security. And you have said why you don't think so. Since we both are using the same info, it proves something I stated at the begining of this. There is room for reasonable people to disagree.

wienerdog
March 26th 2003, 08:09 PM
I think as long as Saddam has ties to terrorist groups and has WMDs, he is a danger to the USA. Nobody denies that he has ties to terrorist groups, and I think we have good reason to think he has WMDs, as discussed in other posts. I've also heard several gov't officials say that they have a great deal of evidence for this, but it is top secret and can't be brought to the public forum right now. You can just refuse to believe that if you want, but to do so seems to be blind skepticism to me.

Alden
March 26th 2003, 08:39 PM
Today @ 04:22 AM
Vorkosigan:



UN treaty is the highest law of the land, under the Constitution, it is probably illegal at home as well. Not that legalities or democratic niceties bother the current Administration very much.

Vorkosigan

You are in error. I've already had this debate with Robin Godfellow, but I think it's been pruned, so I'll go at it again.

The Constitution:
Article VI
Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution.

The constitution is the supreme law of the land. Treaties or alliances entered into by the US cannot supercede the constitution. The government was authorized to enter into treaties in "pursuance" of this constitution. It would be idiotic to think that the government has the power to circumvent (through treaties or alliances) that which grants it authority.

In short, the UN has no power over the United States, only the constitution can lay claim to that.

Epoetker
March 26th 2003, 09:39 PM
Vorkosigan has lost all semblance of coherency or intellectualism, assuming he had any before. Reduced to spouting outworn slogans and incredibly stretched analogies, he is useful for nothing but entertainment purposes now, and should be taken as seriously as the Iraqi ministry of Information, whose briefings he undoubtedly reads daily.


Oh, now I understand! We invade Iraq in an illegal war

The legality of war is not something that the UN security council determines. "Legal," at the last, is an almost entirely stretchable term as it applies to the decision whether or not to invade.


put its citizens to the sword

So far it seems we have killed far fewer than Saddam did on his worst days.


trash its assets

Bosh. Utterly morally inverted bosh. We're repairing and securing the last assets that SADDAM is trying to trash. And weren' you the one who said that the non-Saddamite Iraqis were BANKRUPT? No assets to trash there!


because Hussein betrayed his allies....you mean, sort of like the US is doing now with France and the UN?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


So because Hussein is a bad guy, we suddenly acquire the right to murder his people to get rid of him?

We've given all people who do not wish to stand with him the opportunity to surrender. I hardly think that killing those who choose to stand and fight for a dictator qualifies for the hyperbolic term "murder."


'pet, the NeoCons think US power is a fact-in-the-world, like gravity or earthquakes. They're about to find out that it is both finite and vulnerable.

You have yet to prove evidence of its shrinkage. Britain's polls are swinging our way, %90 of Canadians want better relations with us, and Turkey's beginning to see that maybe letting us have flyovers wasn't such a bad idea after all.


What do you think our position in East Asia and elsewhere is going to look like after we trash our alliances, ignore our allies, drive a truck through the international system we created and nurtured, burn up our treasury occupying Iraq, and debase our army in a long occupation.

Unsupported bluster. Our position in East Asia is pretty much the same as it's always been: SK, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, and Indonesia are either reliable regional allies or veeeery interested in staying trading partners, China's as intransingent as ever, and NK remains nuts. Pretty much par for the course.


Marine scouts shot two Iraqi men yesterday when they were seen carrying Kalashnikovs. Each man was found to be carrying three magazines, but they never fired at the marines before they were killed. "They were pointing their weapons in an aggressive manner, and they were taken out," said Sgt Sprague.
'pet, what do you think our army is going to be like after that is multiplied across 20 million people and six years?

Happy in the first reliably pro-US Arab democracy.


The Germans pitched in beside French farmers in the initial invasion of France in 1940.....but look what happened years later.

:help:


Iraq does not exist in a vaccuum. What happens there has repercussions that are four-dimensional and extend to every other part of the world. There were other solutions to the problem of Hussein, who was not a threat to anyone when we invaded, and other ways to deal with the problem that do not threat US interests elsewhere, or reconfigure US foreign policy to serve the interests of a small sector of corporate America.

But were any of them of long-term effectiveness and strategic interest? Didn't think so.


This is a ridiculous false dichotomy. Your position appears to be that the only way to be against something is to desire its complete and preferably bloody-as-possible destruction.

No, you can also hold the specter of complete and bloody destruction over its head. Or, as will be the case with Iraq, remove a gigantic portion of its economic power.


Supporting wind power

Yes, we should power our cars with WIND! Seriously, though, it's unreliable and far too environmentally inappropriate, as building enough wind generators for significant power affects the landscapes where they'll be built. You'll have us invading Russian steppes for wind generator space in an instant! Global war for Big Wind!


and fuel cell research is just as effective

And is not CURRENTLY feasible, though it might be in 10-20 years.


and does not requiring murdering innocent civilians caught up in an illegal war.

No, it just requires us to ignore the murders of millions more innocent civilians by a dictatorial regime for the 10-20 years we develop the FC tech, and continue to spend billions of dollars and lives in enforcing the no-fly zone and carrying on the diplomatic war against France, Russia, and other countries which interpret the "oil-for-food" program much more liberally than the US does.


This is not a neoconservative idea, but a generally recognized one: dictatorships are bad.

So the neoconservatives are in fact in the mainstream:teeth:


But again, you are stuck. Rumsfeld and his NeoCon cronies loved Hussein, "our strong right arm in the Middle East" or whatever Rumsfeld called him. Only after he miscalculated with Kuwait did they turn against him.

But neoconservatism didn't exist back in the late 80s; they were all conservative Cold Warriors back then. So Rumsfeld was fooled. So he's smart enough not to be fooled again. Much more than I can say for diehard UNophiles like Chirac and you.


No "opportunity has presented itself." The Bush Administration has willfully disregarded international law in attacking Iraq after a long military buildup.

No disregarding was neccessary. We just have a very strict interpretation of "material breach" and "serious consequences," as described in 1441. Screaming about vague illegalities can't help you. Even Blix admits that almost all Iraqi cooperation came about because of the threat of that long military buildup.


There's nothing bad about opposing evil. We are discussing tactics, not strategy. But opposition to evil need not take the position of destruction of innocents.

Who said I was in favor of destroying innocents?:duh:


You see, 'pet, I spent some time working in the Taiwan independence movement. And after the movement got rolling in the late 1970s, democratic change was made in Taiwan peacefully. I could count on my fingers the number of people murdered by the government during the major period of change, when it had killed tens of thousands previously. It took time, and required patience, commitment and imagination, something NeoCons decidedly lack.

But, according to your shadowy conspiracy-mongering, we neocons've been patiently committed to the imaginative idea of democratizing a region where "stability" means "hereditary dictatorship" since around the end of 1991, if not before. Even if the whole democratization angle doesn't work, a military rulerhood would merely be the least repressive iteration of near-absolute power that region has yet experienced. What you don't seem to understand is:

Democracy without the security is DOOMED.


But incredibly, and despite opposition from the world's richest political party allied with the US (and the NeoCons, who have opposed democracy in Taiwan)

So all that anti-China, pro-Taiwan rhetoric I've been hearing all of my pre-teen, teen, and adult life from authors who consistently identify themselves as "conservative" or "neoconservative" was just lies meant to placate the young conservative shock troops? Pardon me if I don't believe you. Give me concrete examples of this. I should be quite surprised to see the likes of David Frum, John Podhoretz or Richard Perle against this sort of thing.


democracy has blossomed here. So I know, 'pet, that it can be done, because I've lived through and watched it happen.

You watched it happen under the umbrella of US protection.


It's easy to get mesmerized by the hard choices. But the irony of power is that the hard choices usually turn out to be mirages.

How have these hard choices turned out to be mirages? Containment DID lead to 50 years of massive economic and humanitarian hemorraghing by both the US and the Soviets. Containment in Iraq DID lead to 12 years of sanctions, diplomatic wrangling, and the ludicrous hide-and-seek of chemical, biological, and quite possibly nuclear weapons. As well as the maintaining of a quite expensive force in the region, not to mention the current war, which would have been over much sooner had we dispensed with the UN and marched on to Baghdad in 1991. Blame Colin Powell, then-war leader and current Secretary of State, for bad military decisions in the past or bad diplomatic decisions in the present.


And another irony of power which the NeoCons are about to find out is that the mystique of power depends on spare use of it.

We do use it comparatively sparingly for our possession of such a great precentage of it.


As any teacher could tell you, the more you use authority, the less you have.

Not if every time you use it, you use it deciseively. It was Mogadishu, Vietnam, and the first Iraq war which emboldened America's enemies, not Kosovo or Afghanistan.


Remember the experience of Britain, whose shoddy army and poor performance in its colonial wars prompted Bismarck to remark when told the British army might intervene in a campaign that he'd send a policeman to have it arrested. That could very easily be us.

Pardon me if I laugh at the stupidest analogy I've ever heard. :lol: Our army is the best in the world. The old powers of Europe have neglected their own precisely because of its effectiveness. China's is something more to worry about, but they have no particular interest in attacking us at the moment. And NK's is outfitted with shoddy tech and almost entirely dependent on strategic positioning and possession of nuclear weapons allowed by trusting Clintonian diplomacy.

Mr Stick71
March 27th 2003, 01:56 AM
"You must have missed the humanitarian aid programs, the overflights, the sanctions, and various other programs."

Vork, think for a second: the "humanitarian aid" was capital so that Iraq could rearm (or else explain where they got these new weapons after the first Gulf War), the overflights were started by the U.S. and the U.K., NOT the U.N. The U.N. is trying to kill sanctions because they don't have the guts to enforce them, and because sanctions do nothing to the leadership of Iraq.

Our signed treaties can be revoked, and I happen to believe those concerning the U.N. probably should be.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a peaceful plan for the removal of Saddam Hussein?