Theology of the Cross vs. Theology of Glory

[elysian]

One of the interesting topics that is coming up continually in the Protestant/Orthodox discussion thread http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23218 is the question of salvation- is salvation contingent upon the Holy Spirit bringing a person to saving faith that results in both invisible and visible transformation in the life of the believer or the result of a simple recitation of a "sinner's prayer?"

I understand the above description is a bit simplistic, but in the interest of clarity it is my understanding that both the Orthodox and certain Protestant denominations (i.e. confessional Lutherans and traditional Calvinists...though confessional Lutherans are not Calvinists) preach and follow what Lutherans refer to as the theology of the Cross. The terminologies may be different but the concepts are similar, and are all based upon the teachings both of Jesus and the apostle Paul.

The theology of glory implies that "I have a hand in my own salvation, it's about what I do for God and how God rewards me 'cause I'm good." " I looked for God, I prayed the prayers, God is looking out for me. It's about my healing, my joy, my prosperity. There isn't a lot of talk about being a servant, or of getting dirty, or of putting one's self aside. It's a "prosperity gospel," that teaches, well "I'm saved, so I can do what I want and God will always love me." Very "cheap grace" indeed- but is this consistent with the understanding that one has been granted eternal life and made a child of God in Christ?

Jesus didn't teach the theology of glory. Jesus taught a very different Gospel, as did those who truly knew His heart and followed Him. John the Baptist is the first teacher of theology of the Cross-

"Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham." Luke 3:8 (NASB)

"He must increase, but I must decrease..."
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:30, 36 (NASB)

Jesus also taught:

"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit." Matthew 12:33 (NASB)

This is not a works based theology, in that I can earn my salvation by my effort, or score brownie points based on what I do . It is rather a cause-and-effect relationship. If you are called, chosen, named and claimed by God, the works will be an inevitable result, much as Luther taught that one cannot separate works from faith any more than one can separate light from fire. Because God has made us "good" trees through His grace conferred upon us, because we have been baptized into His family, He also transforms our hearts and minds and conforms us to His will. The apostle Paul explains the process:

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:1-2 (NASB)

There is a cost to being a disciple of Christ:

"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." Luke 17:33 (NASB)

Christian faith is not about air-conditioned doghouses or big hair or "how to get rich the Bible way" (cringe) but it is in losing our egocentric ways- placing our focus on the Cross, and living for God's glory through humbly serving others. It is a daily surrender, as the Holy Spirit calls and compels and strengthens us to do as a result of God's love and endless grace.

Here is an excellent comparison and study on Theology of the Cross vs. Theology of Glory:http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar51.htm

[Solly]

Elysian, you knock me out at times. Great post.

[elysian]

Elysian, you knock me out at times. Great post.

Check out the link too, that article is awesome too but VERY Lutheran in perspective (Issues, Etc. is a confessional Lutheran site.) I believe Calvin and Knox had quite a bit to say as well as Luther on this subject.

[Solly]

Bookmarked!!

Missouri Synod. Kewel.

Where do I know Don Matzat from, that name is unmistakable?

[elysian]

Bookmarked!!

Missouri Synod. Kewel.

Where do I know Don Matzat from, that name is unmistakable?

Gotta love the Missouri Synod's Internet evangelism!

I am conservative and confessional but I am not Missouri Synod (though I've seriously considered it at times...especially when the more liberal leaders in the ELCA get weird and too almost new-agey for my comfort.) I do appreciate much of the theology and traditional teachings of the Missouri Synod and might well have gone there- joined a M.S. church- except for two things:

My home church is conservative and traditional in theology and doctrine, but open enough to allow intelligent discourse- but we are affiliated with the ELCA. The ELCA does leave virtually everything up to the individual churches, so what you get are some very conservative churches, some very liberal churches or some, like my church that are Scripturally sound and balanced pretty well. But all you see of the ELCA as an national body, in public are the liberals, because they dominate the leadership. Most individual congregations and pastors are moderate to conservative in doctrine and practice.

I do not agree with closed communion, (Missouri Synod practices closed communion- if you are not a member of an individual church you may not commune except by pastoral dispensation) as it is against both what Jesus taught about hospitality and it is counter to Luther's teachings and the Confessions as well.

I do think the ELCA really needs to do two things:

Take a Scriptural stand on abortion, meaning come out and say "we are pro-life" and then act accordingly, as the Missouri Synod has already done

Take a Scriptural stand on marriage: define it once and for all as one man, one woman as Scripture teaches. This doesn't mean "trash gays" or exclude them from the life of the church, but it does mean that we need to stick with "sola Scriptura"- we are all sinners but the church shouldn't subsidize or affirm sin.

[Solly]

Thanks for that. I am closed communion also; "Strict Baptist" as it is known in the UK. Most churches used to be in some form or another. But that is another thread. Lenski's commentary is highly valued in the Reformed community, and you always here Missouri spoken about in reverential tones - although i believe they have had some troubles recently (was it the Augustana issue, or was it in the ELCA?).

It's good that your churches do have such independancy (surprising indeed, in a synodal Lutheran context); quite a few Anglican churches manage to get themselves on an independant footing so that they can continue as reformed/evangelical.

[elysian]

Thanks for that. I am closed communion also; "Strict Baptist" as it is known in the UK. Most churches used to be in some form or another. But that is another thread. Lenski's commentary is highly valued in the Reformed community, and you always here Missouri spoken about in reverential tones - although i believe they have had some troubles recently (was it the Augustana issue, or was it in the ELCA?).

It's good that your churches do have such independancy (surprising indeed, in a synodal Lutheran context); quite a few Anglican churches manage to get themselves on an independant footing so that they can continue as reformed/evangelical.

Some ELCA churches are still closed communion- the church I joined when I became a Lutheran is ELCA and we had closed communion- you even had to sign a card. The degrees of conservatism/liberalism vary that much.

Many conservative churches would have left the ELCA long ago, if they had not been allowed that freedom, to remain conservative and confessional. If the ELCA goes the way of the Episcopals, they will lose about half (or more) of their individual churches, and probably entire synods, especially in the Midwest. The liberal camp dominates the leadership (sigh) but the conservatives dominate the rank and file. So to keep it all "together" they allow a great deal of freedom. Personally I look at the individual home church, and I believe the Holy Spirit landed me in Peace Church for His reasons and I will stay there unless the Holy Spirit prompts me to do otherwise.

[Solly]

Personally I look at the individual home church, and I believe the Holy Spirit landed me in Peace Church for His reasons and I will stay there unless the Holy Spirit prompts me to do otherwise.


Gosh, we could do with some of that Holy ghost common sense through-out the church. It was that same realisation that has kept me where I am, in spite of the difficulties, and itchy feet. Now I am the minister, which I didn't expect. Theology of the Cross in action!

[elysian]

Gosh, we could do with some of that Holy ghost common sense through-out the church. It was that same realisation that has kept me where I am, in spite of the difficulties, and itchy feet. Now I am the minister, which I didn't expect. Theology of the Cross in action!

Not my will but God's!

Francis of Assisi said "Make me a channel of your peace."

I say we should all look to be His catalysts, and His vessels, not the other way around. :smile:

[Solly]

That's what I like about mere Christianity. You might be RCC, EO, Reformed, Arminian, yet we all speak the same language, throughout the world and history.

Blessings on you Sister in Christ, and all who love the Lord in sincerity and truth.

slly

[Maxentius]

The theology of glory implies that "I have a hand in my own salvation, it's about what I do for God and how God rewards me 'cause I'm good." " I looked for God, I prayed the prayers, God is looking out for me. It's about my healing, my joy, my prosperity. There isn't a lot of talk about being a servant, or of getting dirty, or of putting one's self aside. It's a "prosperity gospel," that teaches, well "I'm saved, so I can do what I want and God will always love me." Very "cheap grace" indeed- but is this consistent with the understanding that one has been granted eternal life and made a child of God in Christ?



I agree that we have nothing to do with our salvation. I thinkthis is one of the clearest doctrines inthe Bible actually, and I am amazed how people can come to opposite conclusions. (I do not really want to argue about that right now) :smile:

I have a bit of a different understanding of what the theology of glory (TOG) means. I learned that the theology of glory is a Reformed (i.e. Calvinist/Arminian/Anabaptist) idea. The TOG is actually about God's glory. The idea is that everything God does is for his glory. Thus God created the universe for his glory, he became flesh for his glory etc. etc. If one is a full TULIP Calvinist, one asserts that God predestines people to heaven for his glory, and he also predestines people to hell for his glory.

Everything is about God's glory.

The theology of the cross (TOC) starts at the cross and goes out from there. The TOC basically states that we do not really understand God the Father, who Luther called Deus Abscondus or the Hidden God. Only in the person of Jesus Christ can we possibly bridge the gap. Jesus Christ is God in the face of God, and also God in the face of man. In Christ the Deus Abscondus was revealed to us on the Cross. For this reason Lutherans concentrate on the cross because we can never really understand God in his glory.

Anyway, that is all for abstract theological reasoning for today. :smile:

[elysian]

I agree that we have nothing to do with our salvation. I thinkthis is one of the clearest doctrines inthe Bible actually, and I am amazed how people can come to opposite conclusions. (I do not really want to argue about that right now) :smile:

I have a bit of a different understanding of what the theology of glory (TOG) means. I learned that the theology of glory is a Reformed (i.e. Calvinist/Arminian/Anabaptist) idea. The TOG is actually about God's glory. The idea is that everything God does is for his glory. Thus God created the universe for his glory, he became flesh for his glory etc. etc. If one is a full TULIP Calvinist, one asserts that God predestines people to heaven for his glory, and he also predestines people to hell for his glory.

Everything is about God's glory.

The theology of the cross (TOC) starts at the cross and goes out from there. The TOC basically states that we do not really understand God the Father, who Luther called Deus Abscondus or the Hidden God. Only in the person of Jesus Christ can we possibly bridge the gap. Jesus Christ is God in the face of God, and also God in the face of man. In Christ the Deus Abscondus was revealed to us on the Cross. For this reason Lutherans concentrate on the cross because we can never really understand God in his glory.

Anyway, that is all for abstract theological reasoning for today. :smile:

Where we run into trouble is when our focus is on me, me, me, and not on the Cross. That's why "prosperity gospel" teachings- centered on personal glory, not God's glory are just so wrong. Focusing on God's glory (not trolling for personal glory) is what we were made for! As we continually underscore at my church when we are working with the catechism kids: It's all about God. More specificially, it's all about Christ crucified and risen because as you say the Cross is our Bridge to God. This is a hard lesson for a group of 12-15 year olds, who seem to be all caught up in video games and clothes and "how can I be cool." The only answer is why do you care if the world thinks you're cool when God thought you were "cool" enough for Him to come down to earth as both God and man, to present Himself as Sacrifice, to suffer, bleed and die to save you from your sin?

-Have a blessed Maundy Thursday-
:smile:

[Maxentius]

More specificially, it's all about Christ crucified and risen because as you say the Cross is our Bridge to God. This is a hard lesson for a group of 12-15 year olds, who seem to be all caught up in video games and clothes and "how can I be cool." The only answer is why do you care if the world thinks you're cool when God thought you were "cool" enough for Him to come down to earth as both God and man, to present Himself as Sacrifice, to suffer, bleed and die to save you from your sin?

-Have a blessed Maundy Thursday-
:smile:

The TOG, as the Reformed use it, leads ultimately to "double" pre-destination; God predestines the saved and the damned. This is because if we focus on God's glory we ultimately arrive at the conclusion that everything God does is for his glory, so he damnes people for his glory.

Anyway, that is my understanding of the TOG.

[elysian]

The TOG, as the Reformed use it, leads ultimately to "double" pre-destination; God predestines the saved and the damned. This is because if we focus on God's glory we ultimately arrive at the conclusion that everything God does is for his glory, so he damnes people for his glory.

Anyway, that is my understanding of the TOG.

It was explained to me in a different light, that was pretty accurately reflected in Don Matzat's article that I linked to in the initial post- that TOG is more of a quest for personal sanctification/holiness rather than focusing on what God has done and continues to do for us.

As far as salvation/damnation I see it this way and to be honest to Scripture we must simply accept the paradox:

If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit
If you are damned it is entirely your own fault

I find Jesus' examples in the Parable of the Sower to be apt here:

Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop--thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown." Mark 4:1-20 (NIV)


As much as people today don't want to accept it, there is no salvation without the Cross- Jesus said "follow Me" even though sometimes He leads us into places we'd rather not go. The good news in this is that even when He asks us to do what we think is impossible, He gives us the grace and strength to endure. It's not about our own personal glory but about God's will and God's purpose which we are not capable of understanding.

God teaches us through the prophet Isaiah that He is the creator, we are the created :

"You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"? Isaiah 29:16 (NIV)

Our focus is to do God's will and not seek after our own: to pick up our cross and follow Him.

[George Blaisdell]

If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit
If you are damned it is entirely your own fault


That says it all... Which is why Christians are called to live repentant lives, yet God glorifies His Saints, because in the purity of heart to which they attain, His glory shines forth. Yet the saint will tell you that he is the vilest of creatures, and the close we get to God, the more vile we are able to see ourselves... That is why Orthodox Christians confess themselves every liturgy just before receiving communion [or NOT receiving, as the case might be], that God came to Earth to save sinners, "...of whom I am chief..." And our loftiest bishops confess this every Liturgy, for if they are truely bishops, they know more than I know, that each of us is the chief sinner in desperate need of reform...


I find Jesus' examples in the Parable of the Sower to be apt here:

Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop--thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown." Mark 4:1-20 (NIV)


What is usually lost in western and Protestant traditions in the interpretation of this parable is the meaning of soil... And the relationship of the softening and the watering of this soil, away from where everyone walks and hardens the ground, the roads and pathways... For the soil is the earth of the heart, and some of this soil is rich and ready for the Holy Seed, and some is not, and much is in between, for a hardened heart is anathema to the bearing of fruit... And so when we find ourselves hardened in heart, we know that the demons steal the grace given us, and we know that we need tears of repentance to soften our hearts to receive what is Christ's...


As much as people today don't want to accept it, there is no salvation without the Cross- Jesus said "follow Me" even though sometimes He leads us into places we'd rather not go.


Yet there is victory in the Cross... Indeed, there is victory ONLY in the cross, and in our bearing of it... The letters IC XC on Orthodox crosses everyone understands to mean Jesus Christ, but the NI KA few understand, and fewer still associate with Nike Shoes Inc!! For NIKA is Greek for Victor, and this is one who overcomes, and overcoming is not possible except by the cross - "Just DO it!" is pretty Orthodox... Dunno HOW Nike Shoes got hold of it... Though the meaning of Christianity has much to do with training and athleticism, as Paul repeats and repeats...

I loved Kevin Ewebank's [Jay Leno's band-leader] interview on his potential girlfriends, and they first start hanging out with him, and he practices his music, and they say "Cool..." And three weeks into hanging out, and he is STILL practicing his music, and they say "Hey, what about US???" By week four, they are gone... Christians can afford to do no less for their faith than Kevin does for his music...

geo-Arsenios

[Maxentius]

...because in the purity of heart to which they attain, His glory shines forth. Yet the saint will tell you that he is the vilest of creatures, and the close we get to God, the more vile we are able to see ourselves...

I agree that we reflect a measure of God's glory. God's glory is very, very humbling. I am reminded of the prophet's cry "But I am a man of unclean lips!"

That is why Orthodox Christians confess themselves every liturgy just before receiving communion [or NOT receiving, as the case might be], that God came to Earth to save sinners, "...of whom I am chief..."

The priest himself also asks the congregation for forgiveness during the liturgy, which is a good example of the doctrine of "the priesthood of all believers." Surely, a priest is set apart, but we can forgive each-others sins.

What is usually lost in western and Protestant traditions in the interpretation of this parable is the meaning of soil... And the relationship of the softening and the watering of this soil, away from where everyone walks and hardens the ground, the roads and pathways

Yes, many miss that. We, the church Militant, should not just look upon the stony ground, but remove some stones. We should not just shake our heads at the thorns that choke, but prune them back so they do not choke.

Yet there is victory in the Cross... Indeed, there is victory ONLY in the cross, and in our bearing of it...

That is why I am suspicious of what I learned is the Theology of Glory. It is not God's glory that saves us but Christ and him crucified.

[Maxentius]

Here is a pertinent quote from Luther about our theological starting point and the dangers of the "Theology of Glory."


If you begin your study of God by trying to determine how He rules the world, how He burned Sodom and Gomorrah with infernal fire, whether He has elected this person or that, and thus begin with the works of the High Majesty, then you will presently break your neck and be hurled from heaven, suffering a fall like Lucifer's. For such procedure amounts to beginning on top and building the roof before you have laid the foundation. Therefore, letting God do whatever He is doing, you must begin at the bottom and say: I do not want to know God until I have first known this Man; for so read the passages of Scripture: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"; again: "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6). And there are more passages to the same effect.

If we start with Christ, at the bottom so to speak, we end up getting the glory of God thrown in. If we start with God's glory we may end up with God predestining people to hell for his own glory.

[elysian]

Here is a pertinent quote from Luther about our theological starting point and the dangers of the "Theology of Glory."


If you begin your study of God by trying to determine how He rules the world, how He burned Sodom and Gomorrah with infernal fire, whether He has elected this person or that, and thus begin with the works of the High Majesty, then you will presently break your neck and be hurled from heaven, suffering a fall like Lucifer's. For such procedure amounts to beginning on top and building the roof before you have laid the foundation. Therefore, letting God do whatever He is doing, you must begin at the bottom and say: I do not want to know God until I have first known this Man; for so read the passages of Scripture: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"; again: "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6). And there are more passages to the same effect.

If we start with Christ, at the bottom so to speak, we end up getting the glory of God thrown in. If we start withGod's glory we may end up with God predestining people to hell for his ownglory.

Amen!

We start with Christ, our Foundation- this is one reason why my church recommends that new Christians begin Bible Study with the Gospel of John, then the remaining Gospels and on to the epistles of John, Peter and Paul. We don't recommend people get into the OT until they are familiar with the NT, so that they read the OT with the focus on Christ. It might sound backward but is not backward at all. I wish I had been taught this way instead of having to learn Law first, then Gospel...

John 1:1 (NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

An interesting parallel:

1 John 1:1 (NIV)
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

(In reading this verse can you almost imagine being the Beloved Disciple- to have physically looked upon Jesus, to have eaten with Him, to have conversed face to face with Him?)

"The church's one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord..."
"Upon the solid Rock, I stand, all other ground is sinking sand..."