2 Thess. 2:3, problems I've seen in my dispensational upbringing

[Dikaioo]

Hello,
Shortly after I was saved, I started to study eschatology. I started studying it just in the Bible, but also started reading some of the writings of Scofield, J. Dwight Pentecost, and several other well-known diispensational teachers. I've always been raised dispensational (futurist, premill).

However, one day I was reading 2 Thess. 2:3 and it seemed to go against what I've been taught,

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Now, of course regular dispensational teaching would say that the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" would show up after the rapture, but if we're staying with the main dispensational assumptions, then this verse would seem to be teaching the "man of sin" being revealed before the rapture.

Now, I've seen several seemingly scriptural principles in Amillennialism, but I'm to new to that system to view this passage from that viewpoint, so I'm going back to " default" to discuss this verse for now. This topic is something very important and something I pray the Lord will make me "grounded" in quite soon.

While I'm studying and praying over the issue, I'll just continue to wait for Him to return.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

[Ted]

Let me tweak you a bit further. 2 Thes 2:7 says that "the mystery of lawlessness (i.e. antichrist) is already at work." Thus, the antichrist power existed at the time of Paul. Now, unless this is an incredibly long-lived person, it's not a single person at all.

Ted

[Jude3b]

Hello,
Shortly after I was saved, I started to study eschatology. I started studying it just in the Bible, but also started reading some of the writings of Scofield, J. Dwight Pentecost, and several other well-known diispensational teachers. I've always been raised dispensational (futurist, premill).

However, one day I was reading 2 Thess. 2:3 and it seemed to go against what I've been taught,


Now, of course regular dispensational teaching would say that the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" would show up after the rapture, but if we're staying with the main dispensational assumptions, then this verse would seem to be teaching the "man of sin" being revealed before the rapture.

Now, I've seen several seemingly scriptural principles in Amillennialism, but I'm to new to that system to view this passage from that viewpoint, so I'm going back to " default" to discuss this verse for now. This topic is something very important and something I pray the Lord will make me "grounded" in quite soon.

While I'm studying and praying over the issue, I'll just continue to wait for Him to return.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Paul gives us a description of the apostasy in the early church of God. Certain teachers had been troubling the minds of the Thessalonians with the announcement of the second coming of Christ being imminent; so the apostle wrote: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself abouve all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2:3, 4).

By consulting the historical facts we find that these predictions were only too true. Even before the death of the apostles themselves the apostasy was beginning to work, and its effects were noticeable in certain places. The simple apostolic truth was being lost sight of and the dark night of spiritual apostasy was coming on. The Papacy would come:
In the scripture already referred to, 2 Thess. 2: 3 & 4, it is the papacy that the apostle so graphically describes, as any reader possessing historical knowledge can easily see. The description is so real that one could almost think that it was written after the development of the papacy itself: "That man of sin should be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

While this church apostate grew up by degrees in the West, it finally attained great dominion and authority, civil and ecclesiastical; so that Rome became as thoroughly Christian (so-called but actually it was Romanism) as it had previously been pagan. In fact, it was simply the Roman Empire in the West in another form, arrayed in a Christian instead of a heathen garb. It is therefore described in the prophecies of the Revelation as the successor of the dragon, or heathen Rome, reigning in his stead and exercising his dominion and power.

[Dikaioo]

Paul gives us a description of the apostasy in the early church of God. Certain teachers had been troubling the minds of the Thessalonians with the announcement of the second coming of Christ being imminent; so the apostle wrote: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself abouve all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2:3, 4).

By consulting the historical facts we find that these predictions were only too true. Even before the death of the apostles themselves the apostasy was beginning to work, and its effects were noticeable in certain places. The simple apostolic truth was being lost sight of and the dark night of spiritual apostasy was coming on. The Papacy would come:
In the scripture already referred to, 2 Thess. 2: 3 & 4, it is the papacy that the apostle so graphically describes, as any reader possessing historical knowledge can easily see. The description is so real that one could almost think that it was written after the development of the papacy itself: "That man of sin should be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

While this church apostate grew up by degrees in the West, it finally attained great dominion and authority, civil and ecclesiastical; so that Rome became as thoroughly Christian (so-called but actually it was Romanism) as it had previously been pagan. In fact, it was simply the Roman Empire in the West in another form, arrayed in a Christian instead of a heathen garb. It is therefore described in the prophecies of the Revelation as the successor of the dragon, or heathen Rome, reigning in his stead and exercising his dominion and power.
I would guess you're historic, premill, correct? :)

[trueseeker]

Hello,
Shortly after I was saved, I started to study eschatology. I started studying it just in the Bible, but also started reading some of the writings of Scofield, J. Dwight Pentecost, and several other well-known diispensational teachers. I've always been raised dispensational (futurist, premill).

However, one day I was reading 2 Thess. 2:3 and it seemed to go against what I've been taught,


Now, of course regular dispensational teaching would say that the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" would show up after the rapture, but if we're staying with the main dispensational assumptions, then this verse would seem to be teaching the "man of sin" being revealed before the rapture.

Now, I've seen several seemingly scriptural principles in Amillennialism, but I'm to new to that system to view this passage from that viewpoint, so I'm going back to " default" to discuss this verse for now. This topic is something very important and something I pray the Lord will make me "grounded" in quite soon.

While I'm studying and praying over the issue, I'll just continue to wait for Him to return.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.



I started out Pre-trib, originally the way I was taught. After 6-8 years I found 2 Thes 2:3 and Mat 24:29-30, so I moved to post trib., which I was for over 20 years. A half dozen years ago I was studying Revelations chapters 19-21 and changed again.

Presently I think there are two resurrections. The first is at the end of the tribulation as Jesus is returning. The elect (as it calls them in Matthew) will meet Him in the air to return with Him and reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:4-6 explains that these are the Christians who are killed for Jesus during the tribulation and the ones who survive it without worshipping the beast or taking his mark. The second is after the thousand year reign of Christ, when all others will be resurrected for the judgement day.

[Jude3b]

"There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" (Acts 24:15). How many resurrections? One, "a resurrection of the dead." And this one resurrection of the dead is to include both the just and the unjust.
"Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred of the earth shall wail because of him." At his coming "every eye shall see him." This proves the fact of a general resurrection; and that the resurrection includes the wicked also is shown by the statement that even those who "pierced him" will see him when he comes. "every eye" including the wicked who pierced him - shall awake and see him. One resurrection only..

[dizzle]

Presently I think there are two resurrections. The first is at the end of the tribulation as Jesus is returning. The elect (as it calls them in Matthew) will meet Him in the air to return with Him and reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:4-6 explains that these are the Christians who are killed for Jesus during the tribulation and the ones who survive it without worshipping the beast or taking his mark. The second is after the thousand year reign of Christ, when all others will be resurrected for the judgement day.

Care to debate me on that point? I am writing an article based upon a post in which I spanked Bill pretty hard for making that same argument :wink:

[trueseeker]

"There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" (Acts 24:15). How many resurrections? One, "a resurrection of the dead." And this one resurrection of the dead is to include both the just and the unjust.
"Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred of the earth shall wail because of him." At his coming "every eye shall see him." This proves the fact of a general resurrection; and that the resurrection includes the wicked also is shown by the statement that even those who "pierced him" will see him when he comes. "every eye" including the wicked who pierced him - shall awake and see him. One resurrection only..

Reread Revelations chapter 20, and see if it doesn't say two resurrections. I agree with you that the final one includes both the just and the unjust.

[trueseeker]

Care to debate me on that point? I am writing an article based upon a post in which I spanked Bill pretty hard for making that same argument :wink:

I would be happy to discuss it with you, to see how you interpret it.

[Jude3b]

Reread Revelations chapter 20, and see if it doesn't say two resurrections. I agree with you that the final one includes both the just and the unjust.

John says, "I saw the souls of them which were beheaded for the witness of Jesus . . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Nothing whatever is said about any reign on earth at all; but the description shows plainly tht it was disembodied spirits that were reigning with Christ in Paradise during the period that followed the casting down of the dragon, which was in reality one of long apostasy and darkness on earth. Before and during this conflict with Paganism the church of God (the body of Christ) was publicly triumphant on earth. Afterward, during the apostasy, a false church was, in the public view, triumphant, while the church of God (the body of Christ - true Christians) was crowded out of sight into the wilderness. However, the reign of God's saints did not cease; for when they were slaughtered by their relentless persecutors and deprived of their reign on earth, they were, as symbolized by the man-child caught up to God and to his throne and there "lived and reigned with Christ' during the thousand years under consideration.

The Scriptures clearly teach that mankind in their ordinary condition are "dead in trespasses and in sins," and that through salvation, which makes them "blessed and holy," they are "quickened" (made alive - resurrected) to a new life in Christ. (Eph. 2:1). That this is Scripturally "the first resurrection" is proved most positively by the words of Christ - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:25,24).

It is the trick of Beelzebub to deceive souls by causing them to overlook the fact tht this first resurrection that made men blessed and holy is of a spiritual nature and to fix their hopes in two literal resurrections at the end. There will be but one literal resurrection then, as is clearly shown by the account given of the judgment in this chapter of Rev. verses 11-15. The writer of Revelation declared positively, "Behold, he cometh with clouds: and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred of the earth shall wail because of him." (Rev. 1:7)

[trueseeker]

John says, "I saw the souls of them which were beheaded for the witness of Jesus . . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Nothing whatever is said about any reign on earth at all; but the description shows plainly tht it was disembodied spirits that were reigning with Christ in Paradise during the period that followed the casting down of the dragon, which was in reality one of long apostasy and darkness on earth. Before and during this conflict with Paganism the church of God (the body of Christ) was publicly triumphant on earth. Afterward, during the apostasy, a false church was, in the public view, triumphant, while the church of God (the body of Christ - true Christians) was crowded out of sight into the wilderness. However, the reign of God's saints did not cease; for when they were slaughtered by their relentless persecutors and deprived of their reign on earth, they were, as symbolized by the man-child caught up to God and to his throne and there "lived and reigned with Christ' during the thousand years under consideration.

The Scriptures clearly teach that mankind in their ordinary condition are "dead in trespasses and in sins," and that through salvation, which makes them "blessed and holy," they are "quickened" (made alive - resurrected) to a new life in Christ. (Eph. 2:1). That this is Scripturally "the first resurrection" is proved most positively by the words of Christ - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:25,24).

It is the trick of Beelzebub to deceive souls by causing them to overlook the fact tht this first resurrection that made men blessed and holy is of a spiritual nature and to fix their hopes in two literal resurrections at the end. There will be but one literal resurrection then, as is clearly shown by the account given of the judgment in this chapter of Rev. verses 11-15. The writer of Revelation declared positively, "Behold, he cometh with clouds: and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred of the earth shall wail because of him." (Rev. 1:7)

Hey Jude,

I agree with you that many of the verses often used as if referring to a rapture of all Christians, are misused and refer to the final resurrection of everyone, the just and the unjust. However, I still believe in a tribulation period, followed by a thousand year reign of Christ before the final resurrection. At the end of the tribulation, I believe Jesus will return to reign for the millenium.

Mat 24:29-31 'But immediately after the tribulation...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect...'

Rev 20 I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

From my perspective this is the same event. Post trib, first resurrection, only Jesus' elect, who He has choosen to reign with Him during the millenium, which are those who were victorious through the tribulation.

Obviously, these two references can not refer to the final resurrection of everyone. If I understand you correctly, it is your opinion that it has already happened and that these are 'disembodied spirits' who are reigning now with Jesus in heaven. I have a difficult time believing that this has already happened, and it wasn't a clearly documented event. My perspective is that it is still to come.

[Jude3b]

John says, "I saw the souls of them which were beheaded for the witness of Jesus . . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Nothing whatever is said about any reign on earth at all; but the description shows plainly tht it was disembodied spirits that were reigning with Christ in Paradise during the period that followed the casting down of the dragon, which was in reality one of long apostasy and darkness on earth. Before and during this conflict with Paganism the church of God (the body of Christ) was publicly triumphant on earth. Afterward, during the apostasy, a false church was, in the public view, triumphant, while the church of God (the body of Christ - true Christians) was crowded out of sight into the wilderness. However, the reign of God's saints did not cease; for when they were slaughtered by their relentless persecutors and deprived of their reign on earth, they were, as symbolized by the man-child caught up to God and to his throne and there "lived and reigned with Christ' during the thousand years under consideration.

The Scriptures clearly teach that mankind in their ordinary condition are "dead in trespasses and in sins," and that through salvation, which makes them "blessed and holy," they are "quickened" (made alive - resurrected) to a new life in Christ. (Eph. 2:1). That this is Scripturally "the first resurrection" is proved most positively by the words of Christ - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:25,24).

It is the trick of Beelzebub to deceive souls by causing them to overlook the fact tht this first resurrection that made men blessed and holy is of a spiritual nature and to fix their hopes in two literal resurrections at the end. There will be but one literal resurrection then, as is clearly shown by the account given of the judgment in this chapter of Rev. verses 11-15. The writer of Revelation declared positively, "Behold, he cometh with clouds: and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred of the earth shall wail because of him." (Rev. 1:7)

Does the Bible teach there will be a period of 1,000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked? Does the Bible teach two literal resurrections? Let us forget our preconceived opinions and see what the Word of God has to say!
Mary and Martha sent word to Jesus that their brother Lazarus was sick. They expected Jesus to come and heal him; however, Jesus had other plans, and He purposely delayed His coming until Lazarus had "fallen asleep," or died, physically. We read of this in John 11. Beginning with verse 21 we read, "Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY." Are we going to say that Lazarus was a wicked man? Of course not! Yet Martha said he would rise in the last day - not a thousand years before the last day. Are we going to say that Martha did not know the truth? No! She had been taught by the Master Teacher Himself. She knew when the righteous were to be raised.
Now let us turn to John 6, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again AT THE LAST DAY" (verse 39). Here Jesus is speaking of HIS followers, and He says He will raise them up "at the last day." There are not 365,000 days after the last day!
Let us read on, verse 40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY." In this verse Jesus clearly states that those who have "everlasting life" will be raised at the last day. Do you believe the words of the Master?
That is not all:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY" (verse 44). Those who come to Christ and believe on Him are saved, they have eternal life and Jesus said He would raise them up at the last day. And I say again, you can't have 365,000 days AFTER THE LAST DAY!!
Jesus made it clear in Matthew 25 that the righteous and the wicked will appear together at the judgment. (25:32-46) Paul said the same thing in Romans 14:10-12.
These scriptures make it clear that the righteous and the wicked shall BOTH be raised in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.
So, what then is the true understanding of the "First Resurrection in Rev. 20?"
Well, let us look at John 5. Jesus had healed a man on the Sabbath day who had had an infirmity for 38 years. The Jews sought to slay Jesus for this, and for His calling God His Father, but Jesus faced them and told them the truth, as He always did! Now notice these words, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemation; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE (verse 24). Now Jesus said the person that heard His word and believed on God had everlasting life (was saved, born-again in other words). Further, Jesus Christ called this a resurrection! Note: "But is passed from death unto life." Christ calls salvation a resurrection. Why? Because a sinner is dead! Dead in trespasses and sins. "The soul that sinnerth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4).
Jesus said, "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God"; and knowing that not all who heard - in their ears - would obey, He added, "And they that hear shall live." Those that obey would be saved, would receive eternal life, would be resurrected (born-again).
SALVATION IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION!

[Jude3b]

Rev. 20:4, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" This company of souls that the apostle saw reigning with Christ above were those who had part "in the first resurrection," which meant that they had been saved, born-again, made "Blessed and holy." They were not on earth; they were disembodied spirits above, hence had not been literally resurrected.
Although many other proofs could easily be given, this of itself is sufficient to establish the point that the host of early Christians who had "passed from death unto life" in Christ and who gave their lives gladly for the sake of Christ, constituted the ones referred to as having had "part in the first resurrection." These martyrs had taken part in the first resurrection, because they had fully believed on and trusted in Christ, had been saved (which is the first resurrection - thats what Jesus taught), born-again. As saved Christians, who had left their bodies, they reign with Christ in heaven even today. Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.!" Amen

[trueseeker]

Does the Bible teach there will be a period of 1,000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked? Does the Bible teach two literal resurrections? Let us forget our preconceived opinions and see what the Word of God has to say!
Mary and Martha sent word to Jesus that their brother Lazarus was sick. They expected Jesus to come and heal him; however, Jesus had other plans, and He purposely delayed His coming until Lazarus had "fallen asleep," or died, physically. We read of this in John 11. Beginning with verse 21 we read, "Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY." Are we going to say that Lazarus was a wicked man? Of course not! Yet Martha said he would rise in the last day - not a thousand years before the last day. Are we going to say that Martha did not know the truth? No! She had been taught by the Master Teacher Himself. She knew when the righteous were to be raised.
Now let us turn to John 6, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again AT THE LAST DAY" (verse 39). Here Jesus is speaking of HIS followers, and He says He will raise them up "at the last day." There are not 365,000 days after the last day!
Let us read on, verse 40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY." In this verse Jesus clearly states that those who have "everlasting life" will be raised at the last day. Do you believe the words of the Master?
That is not all:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY" (verse 44). Those who come to Christ and believe on Him are saved, they have eternal life and Jesus said He would raise them up at the last day. And I say again, you can't have 365,000 days AFTER THE LAST DAY!!
Jesus made it clear in Matthew 25 that the righteous and the wicked will appear together at the judgment. (25:32-46) Paul said the same thing in Romans 14:10-12.
These scriptures make it clear that the righteous and the wicked shall BOTH be raised in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.
So, what then is the true understanding of the "First Resurrection in Rev. 20?"
Well, let us look at John 5. Jesus had healed a man on the Sabbath day who had had an infirmity for 38 years. The Jews sought to slay Jesus for this, and for His calling God His Father, but Jesus faced them and told them the truth, as He always did! Now notice these words, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemation; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE (verse 24). Now Jesus said the person that heard His word and believed on God had everlasting life (was saved, born-again in other words). Further, Jesus Christ called this a resurrection! Note: "But is passed from death unto life." Christ calls salvation a resurrection. Why? Because a sinner is dead! Dead in trespasses and sins. "The soul that sinnerth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4).
Jesus said, "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God"; and knowing that not all who heard - in their ears - would obey, He added, "And they that hear shall live." Those that obey would be saved, would receive eternal life, would be resurrected (born-again).
SALVATION IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION!


Jude,

I agree with your assessment of the verses referring to, 'the last day'. It appears to me as well that they all refer to the second (final) resurrection. However, I still don't agree with your interpretation of the first resurrection, I don't think it is referring to salvation.

You asked:

Does the Bible teach there will be a period of 1,000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked? Does the Bible teach two literal resurrections? Let us forget our preconceived opinions and see what the Word of God has to say!

Rev 19:11-21 Jesus returns fights with the beast and his armies, defeats them, captures the beast and the false prophet and casts them into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:1-3 Satan is laid hold of and bound and locked in the abyss for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4-6 '...I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection...'

Rev 20:7-10 'And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prision, and will come out to deceive the nations...to gather them together for war...And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city,...' fire destroys the armies and Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:11-15 heaven and earth are destroyed, the second resurrection where everyone else is brought back to life to stand before the throne for judgement day.

I agree with you that the righteous and wicked will all be raised on the last day, with the exception of the few (not all righteous or all Christians, just those) who Jesus deems worthy during the tribulation to rule with Him during the millenium. I do think that the scriptures teach a literal two resurrections. And that the souls of these saints in the first resurrection are brought back to life, to live on the earth and rule with Christ for a thousand years between the beast's rule and the destruction of the heavens and the earth / second resurrection / judgement day.

[Jude3b]

Jude,

I agree with your assessment of the verses referring to, 'the last day'. It appears to me as well that they all refer to the second (final) resurrection. However, I still don't agree with your interpretation of the first resurrection, I don't think it is referring to salvation.

You asked:

Does the Bible teach there will be a period of 1,000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked? Does the Bible teach two literal resurrections? Let us forget our preconceived opinions and see what the Word of God has to say!

Rev 19:11-21 Jesus returns fights with the beast and his armies, defeats them, captures the beast and the false prophet and casts them into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:1-3 Satan is laid hold of and bound and locked in the abyss for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4-6 '...I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection...'

Rev 20:7-10 'And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prision, and will come out to deceive the nations...to gather them together for war...And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city,...' fire destroys the armies and Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:11-15 heaven and earth are destroyed, the second resurrection where everyone else is brought back to life to stand before the throne for judgement day.

I agree with you that the righteous and wicked will all be raised on the last day, with the exception of the few (not all righteous or all Christians, just those) who Jesus deems worthy during the tribulation to rule with Him during the millenium. I do think that the scriptures teach a literal two resurrections. And that the souls of these saints in the first resurrection are brought back to life, to live on the earth and rule with Christ for a thousand years between the beast's rule and the destruction of the heavens and the earth / second resurrection / judgement day.

The Scriptures clearly teach that mankind in their ordinary condition are "dead in treaspasses and in sins," and that through salvation, which makes them "blessed and holy," they are "quickened" to a new life in Christ. (Eph. 2:1). That this is Scripturally "the first resurrection" is proved most positively by the words of Christ - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:25, 24).

According to Rev. 20:6, it was only on those who had part in the first resurrection that the second death had no power. The church at Smyrna received the sure promise from Christ himself that they should "not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. chap. 2:11); and this shows beyond all question that even at that early date they had had part in this first resurrection that makes men blessed and holy.

[Richbee]

Care to debate me on that point? I am writing an article based upon a post in which I spanked Bill pretty hard for making that same argument :wink:

Give it a rest, your slip is showing!

[trueseeker]

Give it a rest, your slip is showing!


Dee Dee & I are currently debating how many resurrections are still to come. She is arguing that there will only be one, I am taking the side that there will be two.

In a gym debate in the Wrestling Ring
titled: there will be one general resurrection

[barnett]

Shalom,
Paul said the saints at Thessalonica knew his teaching, but they were distrubed because of false speculations. If there is any one 'false speculation', that has troubled the Church, it has been the pre-trib rapture heresy.
There is no secret translation. There is no secret resurrection. There is no secret judgement of saints in heaven. There is no secret 2nd coming!
John makes it clear in Rev.20 there is one resurrection of the just, and this occurs at the end of the '7'.
There can be no rapture without the resurrection. Paul says the resurrection is first! The, the translation. And both of these happen in a moment, at the sound of the archangel, at the 7th trumpet-end of the trib.
This false teaching has come in to accomodate another false teaching-the double covenant. There is one covenant for Jew and Gentile. Israel's fullness is in returning to this one covenant by the preaching of God's 'Cyrus Church'.
There is no 'apostasy' either. The 'falling away', as it is erronously translated, should actually be rendered 'a moving out of the way. This is consistent, and necessary because of a verse latter down referring to when the restrainer is 'moved out of the way.'
I have posted, and do not wish, for length's sake, an article on the rapture on 'Christian Message Board' (Bibleforums.org - Bibledata). And I discuss this on my 'habagministry' web-site.
In The Name,
Michael Bar-net

[dizzle]

Shalom,
Paul said the saints at Thessalonica knew his teaching, but they were distrubed because of false speculations. If there is any one 'false speculation', that has troubled the Church, it has been the pre-trib rapture heresy.

Heresy eh? Let me ask you a question. IF the Great Tribulation is long over, would the view that it is still future be heresy?

[trueseeker]

Shalom Michael, Welcome to TWeb!

You will find a lot of different opinions here. Personally I agree with you that there are two future resurrections and that one of them is at the end of a future tribulation period. However I believe it to be a select few, as defined in Rev 20, only those Christians who are victorious in the tribulation period. They are gathered to reign with the Lord during the millenium period. Everyone else, the just and unjust alike are resurrected on the 'last day' at the 'last trump'.

[dizzle]

Ignore trueseeker he is delusional.

:lmbo:

[trueseeker]

Ignore trueseeker he is delusional.

:lmbo:

Ignore Dee Dee, she is just a girl.

[trueseeker]

Ignore Dee Dee, she is just a girl.

On the other hand she does have a big spear and likes to trounce people. At least she only thinks I'm delusional, not dispensational.

[dizzle]

Aren't the two synonomous?

[trueseeker]

Aren't the two synonomous?


You can be delusional without being dispensational, but........

[dizzle]

You have a point there.

[barnett]

Shalom
Sorry, I have been away and have not seen the lstest posts on this.
But, first to DEEDEE. I have a problem with the many preterists who stalk this Board, roaming about seeking someone to devour! Pretristism, is another hersey plaguing the Church, upsetting the faith of some. If I have mis-characterized you, I repent.
Instead of my rewritting my doctrine on this, I refer you to another Board called Christian Message Board (Biblle Forums.org) where I post often. Under the heading (ithink) 'Bible Chat', or maybe 'Endtimes', I have an article entitled 'Can We Talk'. It is a very good statement on this, if I do say.
Also I have several posts under the name 'bar-net', that deal primarily with the issues of redemption of the Jewish remnant. This is my calling, and passion.
barnett