2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6.

[Etcetera]

Jaltus and Dee Dee do not wish anyone else to post on their personal end-times thread, and I respect their wishes. This post is in response to one very small part of Dee Dee's argument on page 2 (http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=923&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) of their debate:

The Bible also tells us in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 that satan’s angels have been in everlasting chains since their fall, yet the Gospels show them to be very, very active.

Dee Dee, those "angels who did not keep their own domain" were not the sum total of Satan's minions, one and all. They were the two hundred watchers who had relations with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4; 1 Enoch 6ff). Note:

2 Peter 2:4: For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment....

Jude 6: And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, he has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

1 Enoch 10:4-8: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness, and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.

1 Enoch was a popular book amongst the Jews of Jesus' day. It is not surprising to find an allusion to it amongst the apostolic writings.

Cheers.

Etcetera.

[Darth Xena]

Dear Etc:

I am very aware of that argument and reject it. I do not believe that angels had relations with human women and produced the Nephilim. However, I do realize that many Christians do believe that, and of course, that part of my argument would not be persuasive for such.

[Etcetera]

Dee Dee:

Are you denying that 1 Enoch describes angelic relations with women that produced the nephilim? Or are you denying that Jude and 2 Peter are referring to 1 Enoch?

Recall that Jude explicitly quotes from 1 Enoch:

Jude 14: And about these also Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied saying: Behold, the Lord came with his holy ten thousands to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly manner, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1 Enoch 1:9: And behold! He comes with ten thousand of his holy ones to execute judgment upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly, and to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

What is Jude's point in verse 6 then if not the angelic watchers? Where did the imagery of angels being kept under darkness for the great day of judgment come from? In other words, why do you reject that argument?

Regards.

Etcetera.

[Darth Xena]

Dear Etcetera:

I honestly do not have the time to really get into this. I was merely stating that I do not hold that angels had relations with human women. That part of my argument in the larger argument to Jaltus could be removed without harm, and those who believe that this what Jude and Peter are referring to may do so. I was explaining why I utlized it, and to those who agree with me on this issue it will be persuasive. It is a minor support in the overall argument, and I considered not using it at all because of this very issue which I did not want to get into it. I decided, perhaps wrongly, to include it.

FYI - I once held the angels did have relations position, and have gone back and forth numerous times. It would not surprise me if I later changed my mind again. This issue is just one of those things.

[Etcetera]

Dee Dee:

Sorry to have troubled you.

Etcetera.

[Darth Xena]

Dear Etcetera, friend, you never trouble me. Challenge? Yes. Trouble? No.