Did Israel Break Covenant with God?

[Cherith]

--Deu 29:25 "Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:"

--Deu 31:16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake Me, and break My covenant which I have made with them."

--Deu 31:20 "For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break My covenant."

--1 Ki 19:10 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--1 Ki 19:14 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--Isa 24:5 "The land also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."

--Jer 11:10 "They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers."

--Jer 22:9 "Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them."

--Jer 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

--Ezek 16:59 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; I WILL even DEAL WITH THEE AS THOU HAS DONE, which hast despised the oath IN BREAKING THE COVENANT."

--Ezek 44:7 "In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations."

--Dan 11:30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

[Menachem]

--Deu 29:25 "Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:"

--Deu 31:16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake Me, and break My covenant which I have made with them."

--Deu 31:20 "For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break My covenant."

--1 Ki 19:10 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--1 Ki 19:14 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--Isa 24:5 "The land also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."

--Jer 11:10 "They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers."

--Jer 22:9 "Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them."

--Jer 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

--Ezek 16:59 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; I WILL even DEAL WITH THEE AS THOU HAS DONE, which hast despised the oath IN BREAKING THE COVENANT."

--Ezek 44:7 "In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations."

--Dan 11:30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."


Israel has had a long hard history to go along with falling short in the eternal covenant. The focus of Jews is that we strive to do the mitzvot in the eternal covenant as best as humanly possible, while being comforted that no matter how many times we fail at acheiving our goals we stand up and try again while knowing that G-d will not break the covenant with Israel.

As the Psalmist said:

Psalm 111:2-8[2] The works of HaShem are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. [3] His work is honorable and glorious: and his righteousness endures for ever. [4] He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: HaShem is gracious and full of compassion. [5] He hath given meat unto those that fear him: He will ever be mindful of His covenant. [6] He hath shown his people the power of his works, that He may give them the heritage of the heathen. [7] The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all His commandments are sure. [8] They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. [9] He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and revered is His name.

[Cherith]

The focus of Jews is ... being comforted that no matter how many times we fail at acheiving our goals we stand up and try again while knowing that G-d will not break the covenant with Israel.

Eli, the focus of those verses that you guys like to quote so much is not that the covenant will not ever cease (i.e. be broken), but rather that GOD will not break the covenant. The covenant WAS broken, but not by God.

"Know therefore that The LORD thy God, He is God, The Faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with them that LOVE Him and KEEP His Commandments to a thousand generations; {10} And repayeth them that hate Him to their face, to destroy them: He will not be slack to him that hateth Him, He will repay him to his face. {11} Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them."

Did you get that, Eli? He keeps covenant with those that love Him. He does NØT keep covenant with those who hate Him and forsake Him. The Old Testament testifies to the fact that Israel did precisely that which is why it is now referred to as the "OLD" Covenant.

Did you also read the part about "destroy[ing] them"?

God kept covenant. Israel didn't. Case closed. God owed them nothing thereafter except judgment.

[Timothy Leary]

God kept covenant. Israel didn't. Case closed. God owed them nothing thereafter except judgment.

Cherith, you've obviously made up your mind already. Why make 4 or 5 threads that are talking about, for the most part, the same exact thing?

[Cherith]

Cherith, you've obviously made up your mind already. Why make 4 or 5 threads that are talking about, for the most part, the same exact thing?

Actually, Yoshiah, I didn't remember making this point in my debate with you until I reread it today preparing my conclusion. I didn't want to take up a lot of space but wanted rather to use a link to the information, so really I goofed by posting this information twice. You will forgive me, won't you? After all, I am repentant. And that's all that's really required, right?

But don't you love the Scriptures? I mean, I didn't make any personal commentary in this thread (except to respond to Eli), I only posted Scripture passages... That book you claim you love... :innocent:

[Menachem]

Eli, the focus of those verses that you guys like to quote so much is not that the covenant will not ever cease (i.e. be broken), but rather that GOD will not break the covenant. The covenant WAS broken, but not by God.

If G-d does not break the covenant then it will never actually be broken now will it, you cut your own argument down by saying this....

Not keeping the covenant would probably be a better wording on man's behalf, as G-d does not break His end of the bargain..

"Know therefore that The LORD thy God, He is God, The Faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with them that LOVE Him and KEEP His Commandments to a thousand generations; {10} And repayeth them that hate Him to their face, to destroy them: He will not be slack to him that hateth Him, He will repay him to his face. {11} Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them."

Did you get that, Eli? He keeps covenant with those that love Him. He does NØT keep covenant with those who hate Him and forsake Him. The Old Testament testifies to the fact that Israel did precisely that which is why it is now referred to as the "OLD" Covenant.

Since when did the Jews hate G-d?? If your trying to play in your christian Theology on this, your argument holds no water. The jews no matter how many mitzvot they do not do did not hate G-d. If your going to try and prove that I hate G-d then I say bring it on. It is already evident I dont hate G-d or else i would not be an Observant Jew. The passage never says if you break some Mitzvot you will be destroyed it only says " Those who hate Him He will destroy". The language in english as well as Hebrew clearly points to those who Deny G-d, the Torah and its Mitzvot alltogether. The fact that Humans may miss a few Mitzvot is minute compared to those who wish to Deny that G-d exists and Deny His Torah and Mitzvot alltogether.

The only people who refer to this as a "Old Covenant" are christians. Jews dont have an "Old Covenant" we simply have A Covenant.

Here is a thought....If we hated G-d so much then why would he keep the covenant forever as it is written...Your point from the christian point of view contradicts the Words of the Tanakh and make the claim a sham.

Did you also read the part about "destroy[ing] them"?

God kept covenant. Israel didn't. Case closed. God owed them nothing thereafter except judgment.

Case closed....If G-d was intent on destroying the Jews then why are we still here? If G-d keeps the covenant in effect forever as the Psalmist says then the Covenant is still in effect whether Israel observes it or not...you showed that in the first statement you made..

[kofh2u]

--Deu 29:25 "Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:"

--Deu 31:16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake Me, and break My covenant which I have made with them."

--Deu 31:20 "For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break My covenant."

--1 Ki 19:10 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--1 Ki 19:14 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--Isa 24:5 "The land also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."

--Jer 11:10 "They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers."

--Jer 22:9 "Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them."

--Jer 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

--Ezek 16:59 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; I WILL even DEAL WITH THEE AS THOU HAS DONE, which hast despised the oath IN BREAKING THE COVENANT."

--Ezek 44:7 "In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations."

--Dan 11:30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."



You just GOTTA love these Jews, don't you!

They always are the one's to "go first."

Like, they're chosen, to be the example that we can learn from, both the good and bad examples.

Now, when "they" went awhorin', scripture means, by and large, right? I mean, that didn't include the few, like the prophets, and Ruth, and David, and Samson, and all.

Most.
Maybe just a majority of the Israeli population went awhoring, don't you think went ?

Paganism, especially Eros, that is: sexually free mores rampant in the culture, that's what condemned Israel. Right? Majority ruled with this accusation.

The example God sets before America, worse to for us, having the example of these Jews and the wrath of reality of THEIR holocaust,...

I mean, with all Western Society, including the USA, once 100% Christian and now down, down, down,...membership down...
Church membership in Western Europe = 20%
USA = down, from 100 % puritanical 1776, to 60% church affiliation

THEN, the Big Satan monicker... woe be America, heck about proving woe Israel!

If God was so unforgiving to the Jews as to withdraw his promise based on national identity and majorities, we would all be in big trouble.

I think Israel is going to have a very large Hebrew-Christian population real soon, and a promise fulfilled!

Zech. 14:21 Yea, every pot (found in the hospitality to tourism) in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts (the Lion of Judah, root of David): and all they that sacrifice (in pilgrimage) shall come and take of them, and see the (holy sites) therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite-like Palestinian disbeliever in the house (of Israel) of the LORD of hosts, (the Lion of Judah, root of David).

[apple]

Paganism, especially Eros, that is: sexually free mores rampant in the culture, that's what condemned Israel.

Where did you get that "unconventional" belief from? Sexually free mores condemned Israel? Care to expound on that if you are able?

[dizzle]

If G-d does not break the covenant then it will never actually be broken now will it, you cut your own argument down by saying this....

Sigh. This is like assuming a circle is a square and proving that a ring is not a circle because it does not have corners. Care to not presume you are right and point to your presumptions as proof? A loose analogy, I and my husband are holding a glass. It requires both of us to hold it. He drops it. It breaks. It is broken. I did not break it. This really is not that complicated.


Not keeping the covenant would probably be a better wording on man's behalf, as G-d does not break His end of the bargain..

Would you care to interact with Cherith's points please? And this is more than saying in substance "I am right therefore I am right."

I cannot even respond further, and Cherith even knows that I do not agree with every single point she makes, but man, this circularity of argument in this particular post is just maddening.

[kofh2u]

Where did you get that "unconventional" belief from? Sexually free mores condemned Israel? Care to expound on that if you are able?



As a Christian, I am certain that you realize that sexual restrain was a fundament change in social behavior for us. I would direct you to web pages on the worship of Baa'l and Ashtorah, but I don't have any ready reference to offer.

Basically, in the Old Testament, seven major foreign deities were the God head or idealized personifications of real social behaviors. It seems strange to hear about the "worship" of these ancient pre-Greecian and pre-Roman dieties.

But, the personifications were anthropomorphic, meaning people were doing the behavior. That is, the bible writers merely tagged it as worship of this characture of behavior or that.

For instance, the women in some neighboring nations were prostituting themselves, not for money directly, but in order to better negotiate between a few interested men before marrying one. This all took place, mostly, at gatherings, cultural get togethers after the days work was done. Where they met was called a temple by the Jews. But, music and drink and amenitities were available, and girls made "friends" with the guys.

There, flat vagina shaped stones in the buildings, sort of a pornographic statutory or archetecture could be found. These signs marked the locations much as a nron light foes for us, and the Jews called them idols of Baal, or idols of Ashtoeh.

(We have found some of these stones.)

Then, there were those nations which were military in their social organization. They had standing armies and such, as would make men rather Chauvinistic. The behavior of these tough guys was called Baal worship. The large stone phallus outside what we would recognize as "taprooms" marked temples of Baal.

Some communities enjoyed some of both tyoes, Ashtoreh and Baal.
Others foreign nations worshipped other abstract archetypal behaviors, like Marduk was the great shepherd of the people, idealized in what we would call early mythologies.

Anyway, there were seven (7) different basic false gods, all in the same society, sort of like republicans, democrats, the masses, the church goers, and the educated, and duch social grouping in our own society.

The educated class were likened to a God called Nebo, God of reading, writing, science, knowledge and such. The scribes in the day of Jesus would an example of this worship.

Anyway, it was all related to mental disposition, heavily influenced by one mode of thinking or another, one of the seven Freudian archetypes.

Like our own society, the largest groups were the Social Mass Group (or Libidibal Baal worshippers) and the intuitive Crowd Group especially and predominately women. These women had predictable social behavior dubbed Ashtoreh.

Like one biggy for Baal and Ashtoreh was abortion, "sacrificing their children in the highest of social places."

Get the idea? Do a web search.

Dheck out Gad and Mini. Mammon was the god concerned with gold. Worshipping gold... sme pretty much as today.

Let me know what you find out.

[apple]

Kofh writes, "Like one biggy for Baal and Ashtoreh was abortion, "sacrificing their children in the highest of social places."

Are you saying people underwent abortions as a form of sacrifice to a God as opposed to today people having abortions strictly for their own reasons?

You wrote, "sexually free mores rampant in the culture, that's what condemned Israel."

If abortion was a sacrifice to a God then it was anything but "free" sexual mores. It would be dictated, controlled sexual mores. Quite the opposite of free.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "Controlled sexual mores condemned Israel if, indeed, it was a sacrifice to a God/Gods." Yes?

[kofh2u]

Kofh writes, "Like one biggy for Baal and Ashtoreh was abortion, "sacrificing their children in the highest of social places."

Are you saying people underwent abortions as a form of sacrifice to a God as opposed to today people having abortions strictly for their own reasons?

You wrote, "sexually free mores rampant in the culture, that's what condemned Israel."

If abortion was a sacrifice to a God then it was anything but "free" sexual mores. It would be dictated, controlled sexual mores. Quite the opposite of free.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "Controlled sexual mores condemned Israel if, indeed, it was a sacrifice to a God/Gods." Yes?

Not exactly clear on this, but you got some of it. It wasn't like people went to church and sacrificed grown chikdren.

Baal worship was preceeded by the adolescent behaviors of these non-Hebrew community which was calked Molech. That was a set of norms in thise cultures where adolescence had sexual license, and pregnacy, in a day without condoms was a way of life.

The Jews who behavec as was right before Jehovah saw these people as worshippers. These people aborted babies especially in the higher classes of the society, because it was all tied into how tgey arranged marriages between themselves.

Ashtoreh/Baal/Molech.... cultural behaviors of Women/men/teens.


Read Jer 32:35.... the high pkaces of Baal, ....caused their sons and daughters to oass through... the fires of Molech....

see Jer 32:29 and 19:5... here they "burn their sons (baby biys just born).

Jer 7:9 attributes other social problems to this cultural behavior such as thieft, murder, adultery, perjury,... sounds like.... looks like...walks andvtalks like a Big Satan.... hmmmm....

[apple]

Not exactly clear on this, but you got some of it. It wasn't like people went to church and sacrificed grown chikdren.

Baal worship was preceeded by the adolescent behaviors of these non-Hebrew community which was calked Molech. That was a set of norms in thise cultures where adolescence had sexual license, and pregnacy, in a day without condoms was a way of life.

The Jews who behavec as was right before Jehovah saw these people as worshippers. These people aborted babies especially in the higher classes of the society, because it was all tied into how tgey arranged marriages between themselves.

Ashtoreh/Baal/Molech.... cultural behaviors of Women/men/teens.


Read Jer 32:35.... the high pkaces of Baal, ....caused their sons and daughters to oass through... the fires of Molech....

see Jer 32:29 and 19:5... here they "burn their sons (baby biys just born).

Jer 7:9 attributes other social problems to this cultural behavior such as thieft, murder, adultery, perjury,... sounds like.... looks like...walks andvtalks like a Big Satan.... hmmmm....

Jer 19:5 states: "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind."

We are looking at something completely different from sexual licence and abortion. They were offering human sacrifices, burnt offerings. There is a huge difference between loose sexual mores and/or abortion and offering human beings as a sacrifice.

Verse 6 goes on to say, "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter."

Slaughter for sure. I don't think they had abortion facilities or procedures and have to assume they are talking about live births being offered as a burnt sacrifice. They built a special place to offer burnt sacrifices.

Look at euthanasia. It is one thing to administer drugs necessary for the control of pain knowing the drugs will hasten death and quite another to take an ill, elderly patient and set them on fire, on an alter, as a sacrifice.

As for Jer 7:9 let's not confuse the issues. I have little doubt those folks participated in theft, murder, adultery, perjury,... these were people sacrificing human beings to a supposed/unauthorized God.

You write, "Baal worship was preceeded by the adolescent behaviors of these non-Hebrew community which was calked Molech."

What, exactly, are you saying? Adolescents whom participate in sex will move on to offering human sacrifices? Societies that participate freely in sex will start participating in human sacrifices? Is that the connection you are implying?

You wrote, "sexually free mores rampant in the culture, that's what condemned Israel."

Do sexually free mores include sacrificing humans? Offering burnt human beings as a sacrifice is part of the sexual liberation movement?

Please address this at your earliest convenience. If I have correctly understood your meaning then you must perceive the world to be a very ugly place, indeed. Such thoughts can not be healthy for any individual.

[Timothy Leary]

kofh2u,

America was never 100% Christian. It has been a vast majority at times, but never 100% Christian.

[kofh2u]

Jer 19:5 states: "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind."

We are looking at something completely different from sexual licence and abortion. They were offering human sacrifices, burnt offerings. There is a huge difference between loose sexual mores and/or abortion and offering human beings as a sacrifice.

Verse 6 goes on to say, "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter."

Slaughter for sure. I don't think they had abortion facilities or procedures and have to assume they are talking about live births being offered as a burnt sacrifice. They built a special place to offer burnt sacrifices.

Look at euthanasia. It is one thing to administer drugs necessary for the control of pain knowing the drugs will hasten death and quite another to take an ill, elderly patient and set them on fire, on an alter, as a sacrifice.

As for Jer 7:9 let's not confuse the issues. I have little doubt those folks participated in theft, murder, adultery, perjury,... these were people sacrificing human beings to a supposed/unauthorized God.

You write, "Baal worship was preceeded by the adolescent behaviors of these non-Hebrew community which was called Molech."

What, exactly, are you saying? Adolescents whom participate in sex will move on to offering human sacrifices? Societies that participate freely in sex will start participating in human sacrifices? Is that the connection you are implying?

You wrote, "sexually free mores rampant in the culture, that's what condemned Israel."

Do sexually free mores include sacrificing humans? Offering burnt human beings as a sacrifice is part of the sexual liberation movement?

Please address this at your earliest convenience. If I have correctly understood your meaning then you must perceive the world to be a very ugly place, indeed. Such thoughts can not be healthy for any individual.

The sacrifice, as abortion, can be inferred from the well documented sexual practices of these people.

The idol of Baal was a statuette of a man with an enormous penile erection. Ashtorah was no less explicit in the use of hanging phalluses, stone dildos, and the obvious vagina idols.

Referencesvon this subject reports that sexual intercourse was the major rite of these "religions."

The obvious consequences of numerous unwanted and unexpected babies in this atmosphere of sexual excess makes the abortion of children not only more likely the correct inference of "sacrifice," but very possibly a necessary step in the face of our own present problems of 1.5 million abortions annually.
What I argue here is the well understood and know sexual excesses of these people, in a day with zero birth control methods, implies lots of pregnacies.

We could spin it as a wierd unmotivated desire to kill, especially young babies, for no other reason than an unexplainable religious tenet. However, we have found the vases in which babies were buried and the best senario in my opinion is that their abortion practices were the same which always have been with western civilization in every generation, and are with us today.

The practice of abortion is always with us, either underground, as it always has been during ages of moral, stoic sexual repressive times, or, conversely, open and publically accepted in times of great sexual license in the culture.
But, abortion, and prostitution, HAS ALWAYS been part of the western culture.

Abortion doesn't seem quite the stretch you would make to unreasonable killing and an unrelated excessive and calculated sexual promiscuity.

Additionally, the absence of reference to abortion, if these references are not meant as such, would be surprising for a book, tge bible, with so much concerned with society's sexual practices. True?
Sociologically, it is not reasonable to assume that abortion was less common, or absent in Old Testament times, since we do know it has been a constant companion to our sexual mores in every other generation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but certainly the more reasonable assumption seems to be sexual promiscuity and resultant abortions.

Then, we have the additional inference that the adolescent rites of passage were referred to as worship of Molech. This suggests that their culture was similar to what we can still observe in our own society.
We enculturate our teens into the same behaviors during a rather secret and taboo adolescent subculture. This isvthe behavior tagged by the title of Molech worship and the obvious fires mentioned sure fit the senario today.

It serms clear that whatever else might be open to specukation, Baal behaviors are strongly Libidinal in sorcesvas are the practices of Ashtorah part of tge feminine mystic sourced from the Anima.

1) Gad, God of chance = Id
2) Mini, God of Fate = Self
3) Mammon, God of Goldn= Ego
4) Ashtorah, God of women [ Anima
5) Baal, God of men = Libido
6) Nebo, God of writing, science, knowledge = Superego
7) Marduk, shepherd of the Gods = Harmony

These seven (much mentioned) Gods in the Old Testament seem clearly parallel and analogous to the seven spitits we meet in the New Testament.

This adds great impetus to observation that what we see today in society, the reflection of internal motivations, all sourced in the patterns of archetypal "worship" behind actual human behavior explains both our present abortion rage andvtge complaint against Baal and Ashtorah.

[Cherith]

kofh2u,

America was never 100% Christian. It has been a vast majority at times, but never 100% Christian.

Quite right, Yosh!

I can't read Kofh2u. I read his first response and couldn't read anymore. He makes absolutely no sense. In fact, I don't think I have ever read a post by him on any thread that made sense.

I was commenting to my father yesterday that the one thing that has been impressed upon me during this whole debate is the remarkable difference between the language of the Old Covenant and that of the New in that in the Old Covenant/Testament God repeatedly called the majority of His covenant people "out on the carpet" for their unfaithfulness, whereas in the New Covenant this is a rarity - it is the minority that fall into gross faithlessness and many of those are people who are later shown to not have ACTUALLY been in covenant with Him anyway.

As for Dee Dee's response... You mean there's something WE disagree on?!? May it never be! :flowers:

Shoot! Can't this website get a good selection of TULIPs?!? :jardin: That hairbow looks just like Dee Dee's...

--C

P.S. The only place in the O.T. that I see that seems to speak of aborted (or stillborn) babies is in Ezek with reference to Israel - specifically Jerusalem:

"And say, Thus saith The Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite. {4} And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. {5} None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the loathing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born. {6} And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I Said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, LIVE; yea, I Said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, LIVE. {7} I Have Caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare."

BTW, Dee Dee, I finally found that picture of you that I had been looking for... :wink:

[kofh2u]

--Deu 29:25 "Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:"

--Deu 31:16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake Me, and break My covenant which I have made with them."

--Deu 31:20 "For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break My covenant."

--1 Ki 19:10 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--1 Ki 19:14 "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

--Isa 24:5 "The land also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."

--Jer 11:10 "They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers."

--Jer 22:9 "Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them."

--Jer 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:"

--Ezek 16:59 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; I WILL even DEAL WITH THEE AS THOU HAS DONE, which hast despised the oath IN BREAKING THE COVENANT."

--Ezek 44:7 "In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations."

--Dan 11:30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."


Yes, Deut 7 certainly was clear enough in the old part of our two good books. We Christians are doublely reminded, of course, that we stand in the judgement along with the Jew, warned that we are either sheep or goats, no in between.....

Rev. 3:19 As many (Christians) as I love, I rebuke (for failure to feed the hungry, tend the sick, visit the prisoner, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, and take in the stranger) and chasten: be zealous therefore (in Christian action), and repent (from assumed salvations).

[apple]

The sacrifice, as abortion, can be inferred from the well documented sexual practices of these people.

The idol of Baal was a statuette of a man with an enormous penile erection. Ashtorah was no less explicit in the use of hanging phalluses, stone dildos, and the obvious vagina idols.

Referencesvon this subject reports that sexual intercourse was the major rite of these "religions."

The obvious consequences of numerous unwanted and unexpected babies in this atmosphere of sexual excess makes the abortion of children not only more likely the correct inference of "sacrifice," but very possibly a necessary step in the face of our own present problems of 1.5 million abortions annually.
What I argue here is the well understood and know sexual excesses of these people, in a day with zero birth control methods, implies lots of pregnacies.

We could spin it as a wierd unmotivated desire to kill, especially young babies, for no other reason than an unexplainable religious tenet. However, we have found the vases in which babies were buried and the best senario in my opinion is that their abortion practices were the same which always have been with western civilization in every generation, and are with us today.

The practice of abortion is always with us, either underground, as it always has been during ages of moral, stoic sexual repressive times, or, conversely, open and publically accepted in times of great sexual license in the culture.
But, abortion, and prostitution, HAS ALWAYS been part of the western culture.

Abortion doesn't seem quite the stretch you would make to unreasonable killing and an unrelated excessive and calculated sexual promiscuity.

Additionally, the absence of reference to abortion, if these references are not meant as such, would be surprising for a book, tge bible, with so much concerned with society's sexual practices. True?
Sociologically, it is not reasonable to assume that abortion was less common, or absent in Old Testament times, since we do know it has been a constant companion to our sexual mores in every other generation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but certainly the more reasonable assumption seems to be sexual promiscuity and resultant abortions.

Then, we have the additional inference that the adolescent rites of passage were referred to as worship of Molech. This suggests that their culture was similar to what we can still observe in our own society.
We enculturate our teens into the same behaviors during a rather secret and taboo adolescent subculture. This isvthe behavior tagged by the title of Molech worship and the obvious fires mentioned sure fit the senario today.

It serms clear that whatever else might be open to specukation, Baal behaviors are strongly Libidinal in sorcesvas are the practices of Ashtorah part of tge feminine mystic sourced from the Anima.

1) Gad, God of chance = Id
2) Mini, God of Fate = Self
3) Mammon, God of Goldn= Ego
4) Ashtorah, God of women [ Anima
5) Baal, God of men = Libido
6) Nebo, God of writing, science, knowledge = Superego
7) Marduk, shepherd of the Gods = Harmony

These seven (much mentioned) Gods in the Old Testament seem clearly parallel and analogous to the seven spitits we meet in the New Testament.

This adds great impetus to observation that what we see today in society, the reflection of internal motivations, all sourced in the patterns of archetypal "worship" behind actual human behavior explains both our present abortion rage andvtge complaint against Baal and Ashtorah.

The Bible is quite clear about worshipping other Gods and/or idols. The point you seem to be missing is the children were "sacrificed" to other Gods. Whether it be a goat or a child the idea of sacrificing anything to another God was prohibited.

You say we can infer abortion as a sacrifice but can we? We do not have statues and idols associated with abortion. It is not done to appease any God. If we are going to say one's behavour can be considered a sacrifice to Gods we can certainly take advantage of that. Drinking and smoking and good old-fashioned partying can be said to be a sacrifice.

Was it the burning of children that bothered God or was it the idea people were sacrificing something to another God? It can certainly be debated. Whether we look at one of the commandments about "no other Gods before me" or the numerous references throughout the Bible that He is the only true God it is clear that the act of sacrificing was a big no-no. It's not what was sacrificed it was the act of sacrificing to another God that bothered Him.

Finally, let's not forget the "breath of life."
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Ezekiel 37:5 "Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live"
(There are probably a dozen more references to breath and life.)

Breath and life are synonymous. Once a child is born it breaths and has life. Before it is born there is no breath in it's nostrils. Breath is life. Surely offering a sacrifice that was not breathing would be the height of insult. A fetus undergoing abortion does not have breath in it's nostrils so it can not be considered a sacrifice no matter how one wishes otherwise.

[Timothy Leary]

Hey Cherith,

(drum roll)
.
..
...
..
.
..
....
.....
....
...
..
.



We agreed on something!

:)

[Timothy Leary]

Actually, Yoshiah, I didn't remember making this point in my debate with you until I reread it today preparing my conclusion. I didn't want to take up a lot of space but wanted rather to use a link to the information, so really I goofed by posting this information twice. You will forgive me, won't you? After all, I am repentant. And that's all that's really required, right?

But don't you love the Scriptures? I mean, I didn't make any personal commentary in this thread (except to respond to Eli), I only posted Scripture passages... That book you claim you love... :innocent:

I was reading in between the lines.

Anyways, let's put it simply. You and I (and most of the other posters in this section) are both set in our opinions - it's no big secret ;) - so instead of unfruitfully debating things that have a 98.9% of not changing our opinions, why not study/discuss/debate things that we are more likely to progress in?

In fact, I think I might start a thread about Tzitzit in a few minutes.

[Menachem]

Sigh. This is like assuming a circle is a square and proving that a ring is not a circle because it does not have corners. Care to not presume you are right and point to your presumptions as proof? A loose analogy, I and my husband are holding a glass. It requires both of us to hold it. He drops it. It breaks. It is broken. I did not break it. This really is not that complicated.

Nice analogy, However it would be impossible for the glass to drop if you are still holding on to it no matter who lets go of it. A better analogy would be this. I and my fiance are holding a glass. Both of us hold it together. she fails to hold on to it. Yet I still hold my end up. The glass is not broken. I am waiting for her to come back and hold her end of the glass.
I am not assuming anything, As the texts clearly stated That G-d does not break the covenant. though Israel has fell short in the past... I made that point in response to her point and there was nothing circular about it.

If your complaining about my supposed circular argumentation, try not arguing by analogy.



Would you care to interact with Cherith's points please? And this is more than saying in substance "I am right therefore I am right."

If your going to put it that way then I would be right...lol.... If you read my post I did in fact respond to cherith's points and reportedly told her that her view contradicts the Tanakh on the viewpoint of G-d keeping His covenant with G-d forever as the Psalmist wrote, as the prophets wrote, and As the Torah prescribes. Nothing circular about that...


I cannot even respond further, and Cherith even knows that I do not agree with every single point she makes, but man, this circularity of argument in this particular post is just maddening.

Arguments are only circles if a person picks up a straight argument runs in a circle with the argument, and tries to find the end mark which will never be found.

[Cherith]

Hey Cherith, (drum roll) We agreed on something! :)

I know, Yosh, isn't it wonderful! :woohoo: :highfive: :dance:

But my cat is still smarter than yours!

[studyhound]

Nice analogy, However it would be impossible for the glass to drop if you are still holding on to it no matter who lets go of it. A better analogy would be this. I and my fiance are holding a glass. Both of us hold it together. she fails to hold on to it. Yet I still hold my end up. The glass is not broken. I am waiting for her to come back and hold her end of the glass.
I am not assuming anything, As the texts clearly stated That G-d does not break the covenant. though Israel has fell short in the past... I made that point in response to her point and there was nothing circular about it.

If your complaining about my supposed circular argumentation, try not arguing by analogy.
No honestly I think you both are using the wrong type of anology (sorry Dee Dee). The agreement is like one of a land owner and tenants (Matt 21.33-41) the landlord (God) has given the tenants (the Jews) a "rental agreemant" (Sinai convant) and the land was never theirs, they never owned it.

(23) "The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine. For you are strangers and sojourners with me.

The land was theirs to have but they dropped the ball, they broke the lease. So now God has given over the vineyard to new tenants who will produce fruit, also with a new agreement.

:studyhound:

[Cherith]

No honestly I think you both are using the wrong type of anology (sorry Dee Dee). The agreement is like one of a land owner and tenants (Matt 21.33-41) the landlord (God) has given the tenants (the Jews) a "rental agreemant" (Sinai convant) and the land was never theirs, they never owned it. ... The land was theirs to have but they dropped the ball, they broke the lease. So now God has given over the vineyard to new tenants who will produce fruit, also with a new agreement.

I totally agree with StudyHound. I like his analogy much better. You would not believe how many times in the Old Covenant that God stresses the fact that the land is His and He is giving - i.e. loaning, it to them. He says that:

"In the day that I lifted up Mine Hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I Had Espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:"

And that the previous inhabitants were being removed from His Land because of their abominations. The sad part is that the vast majority of His covenant people proved to be no better than the former tenants and they too were evicted and disinherited.

I'll have to start a new thread this week on all the passages where He stresses that the land was His and it was a CONDITONAL gift.

Along these lines Yoshi, what do you think about the Neturei Karta (http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm) Jews? How do their beliefs differ from yours/the Karaites?

Jews NØT Zionists (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/)

[kofh2u]

kofh2u,

America was never 100% Christian. It has been a vast majority at times, but never 100% Christian.


1) Am I off by a whole lot on the 100%?

2) As a nation, is America in the same danger as chez tells us Israel must accept?
Aren't we worshipping Baal and Ashtoreh, subtly and perhaps even unrecognized by those who sacrifice 1,500,000 children to the "worship" of sexual promiscuities?

3) How about the promise after promise, and the prophecies... won't God return the Jews and underscore his own power to accomplish his ends?
Is God better off with Nazi supporters, the PLO of today, living there instead of the "chosen ones." Jews lose, Nazi win the end game?

4) And, isn'tthe whole argument mute... in that there is a growing congregation of Hebrew-Christians?
They qualify, right,... they have not "gone awhoring after Ashtoreh and Baal," right?








Rev. 3:19 As many (Christians) as I love, I rebuke (for failure to feed the hungry, tend the sick, visit the prisoner, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, and take in the stranger) and chasten: be zealous therefore (in Christian action), and repent (from assumed salvations).

[Timothy Leary]

I know, Yosh, isn't it wonderful! :woohoo: :highfive: :dance:

But my cat is still smarter than yours!

Well that's probably because my cat isn't alive :( :(

[Timothy Leary]

Along these lines Yoshi, what do you think about the Neturei Karta (http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm) Jews? How do their beliefs differ from yours/the Karaites?

They are Jews, but their apologizing for the killing of Sheikh Yassin (http://www.ancient-paths.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20&mode=nested&order=0&thold=0) makes me want to puke.

They're aren't a specific school of thought within the Rabbinates, but comprise varous people from differen POVs within the Rabbinates. So the differences would be the general differences between Rabbinic Judaism and Karaite Judaism.

Also, we've *always* taught about going back to Israel, and many of us have done that. During the Golden age of Karaism, we formed the majority of those who lived in Jerusalem. Hakham Daniel Al-Kumisi comes to mind for an extremely "pro-zionist" Karaite.

But there is a difference between hating all palestinians and being zionist. Unfortunately, that line has become blurred. SSV is the perfect example of a person that is Zionist, but not racist.

[Timothy Leary]

If God were to ever abandon Israel or to leave it without physical offspring, the sea would cease to have waves, the sun would not shine during the day, the moon & stars would not shine during the night, the entire universe would be measured, and each person would be able to fathom the entire universe.

(Cf. Jeremiah 31:35-37, Jeremiah 33:17-18, Jeremiah 33:19-26).

Nice analogy, However it would be impossible for the glass to drop if you are still holding on to it no matter who lets go of it. A better analogy would be this. I and my fiance are holding a glass. Both of us hold it together. she fails to hold on to it. Yet I still hold my end up. The glass is not broken. I am waiting for her to come back and hold her end of the glass.
I am not assuming anything, As the texts clearly stated That G-d does not break the covenant. though Israel has fell short in the past... I made that point in response to her point and there was nothing circular about it.

If your complaining about my supposed circular argumentation, try not arguing by analogy.





If your going to put it that way then I would be right...lol.... If you read my post I did in fact respond to cherith's points and reportedly told her that her view contradicts the Tanakh on the viewpoint of G-d keeping His covenant with G-d forever as the Psalmist wrote, as the prophets wrote, and As the Torah prescribes. Nothing circular about that...




Arguments are only circles if a person picks up a straight argument runs in a circle with the argument, and tries to find the end mark which will never be found.

[kofh2u]

The Bible is quite clear about worshipping other Gods and/or idols. The point you seem to be missing is the children were "sacrificed" to other Gods. Whether it be a goat or a child the idea of sacrificing anything to another God was prohibited.

You say we can infer abortion as a sacrifice but can we? We do not have statues and idols associated with abortion. It is not done to appease any God. If we are going to say one's behavour can be considered a sacrifice to Gods we can certainly take advantage of that. Drinking and smoking and good old-fashioned partying can be said to be a sacrifice.

Was it the burning of children that bothered God or was it the idea people were sacrificing something to another God? It can certainly be debated. Whether we look at one of the commandments about "no other Gods before me" or the numerous references throughout the Bible that He is the only true God it is clear that the act of sacrificing was a big no-no. It's not what was sacrificed it was the act of sacrificing to another God that bothered Him.

Finally, let's not forget the "breath of life."
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Ezekiel 37:5 "Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live"
(There are probably a dozen more references to breath and life.)

Breath and life are synonymous. Once a child is born it breaths and has life. Before it is born there is no breath in it's nostrils. Breath is life. Surely offering a sacrifice that was not breathing would be the height of insult. A fetus undergoing abortion does not have breath in it's nostrils so it can not be considered a sacrifice no matter how one wishes otherwise.


Do you see any relationship in American history between the lowering of sexual restrictions in our culture and the complementary rise in the number of abortions,presently at the cost of sacrificing some 1,500,000 first borns, or could be born children?

To an outsider from say, Islam, or maybe unenculturated gypsy community are we "worshipping" Eros, ... unknowingly?

[apple]

Do you see any relationship in American history between the lowering of sexual restrictions in our culture and the complementary rise in the number of abortions,presently at the cost of sacrificing some 1,500,000 first borns, or could be born children?

To an outsider from say, Islam, or maybe unenculturated gypsy community are we "worshipping" Eros, ... unknowingly?

Of course there is a relationship between lowering the sexual restrictions and abortion, however, it does not have to be that way. The problem is a portion of society refuses to instruct their children in, and give them adequate access to, birth control. It's similar to saying the more cars the more people will be killed but refusing to allow them to wear seat belts or prohibiting ADS against drunk driving. How anyone can seriously complain about abortions yet not allow/insure their children to have condoms with them at all times is nothing short of madness.

There is no "worshipping" involved. Worshipping: 1. To honor and love as a deity. 2. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence.

Sex is treated just the opposite or, at least, should be. It is not treated with reverence. It is not made out to be special. It would be far more accurate to say sex used to be worshipped.

Before one could participate in sex there had to be a big ritual called marriage. Sex was acceptable between specific people only. The consummation (The act of consummating; a fulfillment. An ultimate goal or end. The act of bringing to completion or fruition) of a marriage was sex. A woman was supposed to be a virgin on her wedding day. If all that doesn't add up to worshipping sex I don't know what else one could do!

It appears it is you whom worships sex. You want it to be special, controlled, limited, available only under specific circumstances. It is you whom insist sex be put on a pedestal and revered. It is apparent it is you whom worships Baal and Ashtorah. Certainly not I.

[kofh2u]

Of course there is a relationship between lowering the sexual restrictions and abortion, however, it does not have to be that way. The problem is a portion of society refuses to instruct their children in, and give them adequate access to, birth control. It's similar to saying the more cars the more people will be killed but refusing to allow them to wear seat belts or prohibiting ADS against drunk driving. How anyone can seriously complain about abortions yet not allow/insure their children to have condoms with them at all times is nothing short of madness.

There is no "worshipping" involved. Worshipping: 1. To honor and love as a deity. 2. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence.

Sex is treated just the opposite or, at least, should be. It is not treated with reverence. It is not made out to be special. It would be far more accurate to say sex used to be worshipped.

Before one could participate in sex there had to be a big ritual called marriage. Sex was acceptable between specific people only. The consummation (The act of consummating; a fulfillment. An ultimate goal or end. The act of bringing to completion or fruition) of a marriage was sex. A woman was supposed to be a virgin on her wedding day. If all that doesn't add up to worshipping sex I don't know what else one could do!

It appears it is you whom worships sex. You want it to be special, controlled, limited, available only under specific circumstances. It is you whom insist sex be put on a pedestal and revered. It is apparent it is you whom worships Baal and Ashtorah. Certainly not I.


1) Don't the young people who use CONDOMS still... even then, PRAY that they don't break?

Who do they pray to, Eros, GODDESS of sexual love?

2) You said:
"The Bible is quite clear about worshipping other Gods and/or idols. The point you seem to be missing is the children were "sacrificed" to other Gods."

All the neighbors of Israel worshipped these Gods whose recommended behaviors in social practices concerned the "exercise" of thePHALLUS, a wooden, stone, or fleshy human phallus.

There is no evidence to support that they did ritual murde as well, unrelated to promiscuityr, that is, just killing some chosen chldren at random.
It is also unreasonable to think that ancient Syrians and Iraqi and Iranians were killing and burning the bodies of children without a logical explanation, like abortion. Fo you suggest a better reason?
Human sacrifices, like killing captured enemies and such has been observed in cultures, but remember that these abortion deaths were attributed to Gods whose basic doctrines were sexual promiscuity.

Blood sacrifice and slaugter of animals, like the bulls and rams was a common Hebrew sacrifice, and one the bible supported. There is no reason to think that these Jews had any reason to start killing their kids instead of goats. But, sex being what it is, an irrepressible urge, sexual promiscuity seems a simple enough change in behavior. That the Jewish stoicism was replaced by a growing hedonism would hardly be pecular and the accompanying abortion unavoidable.
But, with the excess of a new sexual license in their society from time to time, as you agree, the unwanted pregnacies would have increased in direct proportion. So would the idea of arguing that these new births weren't REALLY 100% full grown HUMANS. Abortion could become socially tolerated, as the arguments of today exemplify.

3) CONDOMS? I don't think they were available as a suppressive tactic to stop abortion, and, apparently, those people who worship these Pagan Gods and Goddesses, knowingly or unknowingly, don't use them when they are avaikable, ie: 1,500,000 abortions/each year (@550 today and every day).

[dizzle]

Nice analogy, However it would be impossible for the glass to drop if you are still holding on to it no matter who lets go of it.

Did you read what I said. I proposed one in which it was required... It requires both of us to hold it. thus my analogy was right on. You keep assuming and pointing to your assumptions as proof.





I am not assuming anything, As the texts clearly stated That G-d does not break the covenant. though Israel has fell short in the past... I made that point in response to her point and there was nothing circular about it.

If your complaining about my supposed circular argumentation, try not arguing by analogy.

Non-answer. I am finding that a common occurence. Analogies can be useful. Did you just need soemthing to say? Ciruclar arguments are NEVER useful. You didn't make the point by anything other than your ipse dixit. You didn't interact with her argument. You once again said, "I am right, therefore I am right." That really doesn't cut it.

Try this. Quote a portion of Cherith, respond fully and with biblical support. Then quote another portion, and systematically go through her points that way. That is what a debate is.

[Timothy Leary]

What about my Jeremiah references, DDW?

[dizzle]

What about my Jeremiah references, DDW?

Yosiah, I have not read the whole thread. I have been reading the posts by Eli and noticed that he was not answering anything but saying a whole of nothing with regards to a debate rather than just stating one's opinon over and over. I have not read your posts in this thread. I did read many of your Gym debate posts, and although I am not in Cherith's camp on that issue of whether or not there are physical descendants today (I find the point pretty irrelevant for it matters not to the theology issue for me), I did not think you even came close to defeating her Biblical points. I know nothing about the historical geneological issues and stay out of them, but the Biblical points I found to be unanswered in the amount I read (which was not yet comprehensively).

[kofh2u]

What about my Jeremiah references, DDW?

These people may be correct.
Perhaps God will forsake the Jews, they sure read as guilty in every reign of the Kings, except two. They sure have little defense against a two way breach of contract.

But those who believe this to be the case must have faith in the inclusion of enough Jews to teach the Gentile Christian about booths and how to build them for one example.

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of
all the nations (and denominations of Christian religion) which came against (this New) Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, (the Lion of Judah, root of David), the LORD of hosts (of miriad Christians), and to keep the feast of tabernacles, (and build cube shaped geometries as if Sukkots).

[apple]

1) Don't the young people who use CONDOMS still... even then, PRAY that they don't break?

Who do they pray to, Eros, GODDESS of sexual love?

2) You said:
"The Bible is quite clear about worshipping other Gods and/or idols. The point you seem to be missing is the children were "sacrificed" to other Gods."

All the neighbors of Israel worshipped these Gods whose recommended behaviors in social practices concerned the "exercise" of thePHALLUS, a wooden, stone, or fleshy human phallus.

There is no evidence to support that they did ritual murde as well, unrelated to promiscuityr, that is, just killing some chosen chldren at random.
It is also unreasonable to think that ancient Syrians and Iraqi and Iranians were killing and burning the bodies of children without a logical explanation, like abortion. Fo you suggest a better reason?
Human sacrifices, like killing captured enemies and such has been observed in cultures, but remember that these abortion deaths were attributed to Gods whose basic doctrines were sexual promiscuity.

Blood sacrifice and slaugter of animals, like the bulls and rams was a common Hebrew sacrifice, and one the bible supported. There is no reason to think that these Jews had any reason to start killing their kids instead of goats. But, sex being what it is, an irrepressible urge, sexual promiscuity seems a simple enough change in behavior. That the Jewish stoicism was replaced by a growing hedonism would hardly be pecular and the accompanying abortion unavoidable.
But, with the excess of a new sexual license in their society from time to time, as you agree, the unwanted pregnacies would have increased in direct proportion. So would the idea of arguing that these new births weren't REALLY 100% full grown HUMANS. Abortion could become socially tolerated, as the arguments of today exemplify.

3) CONDOMS? I don't think they were available as a suppressive tactic to stop abortion, and, apparently, those people who worship these Pagan Gods and Goddesses, knowingly or unknowingly, don't use them when they are avaikable, ie: 1,500,000 abortions/each year (@550 today and every day).

Young people praying to the Godess of Love? I suppose fishermen pray to the fish God. Check out <http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,915125,00.html>
(An obscure Jewish sect in New York has been gripped in awe by what it believes to be a mystical visitation by a 20lb carp that was heard shouting in Hebrew, in what many Jews worldwide are hailing as a modern miracle.)
I suppose there is a God for everyone. :-)

You say there was no evidence to support that they did ritual murder. Of course there was. They were offering burnt sacrifices if one is to believe the Bible. Why all the ceremony if not for a ritual? Simply bury them.

Are you not able to see the difference between doing something and saying one is doing it as a sacrifice? If sacrificing to Gods was a good thing then people would deliberately try to become pregnant so they would have something to sacrifice. To my knowledge people, today, do not try to become pregnant so they can have an abortion.

Let's see if I can show you the difference. Let's say a person smokes and develops lung cancer. The lung is removed. Compare that to an abortion. (I'm not saying a pregnancy is a disease. I am using this analogy to show the difference between sacrifice/worshipping and just an every day occurrence.)

Imagine if a person said they were going to smoke and smoke and smoke and do their best to develop lung cancer so they would have something to sacrifice to a God? Having a diseased lung removed is one thing. Deliberately trying to cause lung disease so one can offer their lung as a sacrifice is quite another. It is unproductive. It is irrational just as trying to get pregnant so one can sacrifice a newborn is irrational.

You said they had articles made from wood and stone, etc. They celebrated the killing of newborns. The goal of getting pregnant was to have something to sacrifice. That is what was wrong.

I'm sure you're aware of how people are influenced (for lack of a better word) by the church and their belief in a God. Imagine a society that believed God wanted people to sacrifice their newborn? Imagine a society that not merely permitted abortion but coerced their citizens into believing that sacrificing their newborn was looked upon favorably by the Gods. Do you not see the huge difference?

The Bible is forever talking about being fruitful and multiplying. The infant mortality rate must have been horrendous in those days. From poor nutrition of the expectant mother to diseases and malnutrition of the infant I would suspect one would cherish their offspring. It would make sense to have a ritual and say God wanted the child as a sacrifice before any woman would make the sacrifice. They were giving their baby to God or so they thought. That would make sense of the need for a ritual and a supposed God.

Sacrificed "items" were the best of the lot. If babies were "a dime a dozen" then it would appear to be an insult to Gods to offer Them something so unworthy.

Your comparing human sacrifices with today's abortions do not make sense.