The War in Iraq in relation to the Millennium

[mrsnacks]

I am an orthodox preterist and I believe we are in the millennium presently and with that aren't things supposed to get better ( the world situation becoming more christian ) leading up to the 2nd coming of Christ ?? . I want to hear comments from those in the same camp preferably.

I had a few unbelievers ask me if this was the beginnings of the great tribulation and doesn't the Bible speak of the present situation in the world (the war and unrest in the world) etc ? When I held to the futurist view a year or so ago I could've had a captive audience for hours spouting out the theology of Lindsey, Impe, Ice, LaHaye, Jeffries, and the rest of the rich self-proclaimed prophecy experts. I was at a lost briefly .

I know from my research that our government is not telling us the truth and that our admininstration and President's motives in the Iraq war are not right and just period even though he uses the expression "being on a mission for God.". I am trying to deal with this and tie it all in my eschatological position.

If the U.S. is wrong in attacking Iraq and possibly other countries after that causing the loss of many innocent lives we will pay with a direct judgement from God . We all know that God is in control and nothing catches Him by surprise. But is it possible that He is using the U.S. in judgement upon Iraq or possibly other nations that will follow considering we will win the war. Or is He raising a nation presently as judgement upon us ?

It seems in my travels around the world is that this planet is becoming more and more unsafe and on the brink of annihilation than ever before.

I talked with a friend of mine who is an expert in the financial world. He was very afraid of the effect of this war and our policies on the American people . Our position of going against other nations aggressively in stating that you must disarm and remove your WMD or we will attack you with our WMD as being very arrogant to the world let alone the cost of this war and the cost of our country's continued support of Israel financially. We were in terrible shape before all this and he doesn't see how our country can survive he says .

Anyway how do you see it all fitting together if you hold to the view that we are in the millennium ??? If you hold to the futurist view as I once did and care to respond --you can. My question to the futurist is that if God is on their side according to the disp view ---why are they asking the U.S. for billions of dollars to bail them out financially . It seems the influencial lobbyists for Israel in our gov, are milking the taxpayers .

[Pilgrim]

I know from my research...

What secret plans and documents has this research lead you to and can you cite sources?

[Bill the Cat]

I know from my research that our government is not telling us the truth and that our admininstration and President's motives in the Iraq war are not right and just period even though he uses the expression "being on a mission for God."

Please tell me you don't think that this war is about oil!! It is about the millions of dollars invested in terrorism by Saddam. We all know about Saddam using chemical weapons on his own people, so the only thing holding him back right now is public opinion. The minute he shows his hand, the US will be vindicated. ANd he will, he's too vain not to. Intimidate a bully, and you have them right where you want them. That's what JP does to mcTill. :yipee:

[mrsnacks]

I wouldn't say this war is just about oil. That's part of it in that the U.S. desires to control the oil and that will be proven to be to the oil industry's benefit. Bush has had previous oil and business dealings with Bin Laden .

I believe from what I've seen is that Sadam is a terrible dictator that has done much evil. I just am not convinced that what our leaders are telling us is the truth about our intentions. If it's about liberating the people --- why didn't we go into the Sudan where millions of christians have been massacred ?? What about Red China, Russia ??? N. Korea is more of a threat. What is being accomplished in Afghanistan ??

I would advise you to go to infowars.com. it's a site run by Alex Jones. In there you find a wealth of info and transcripts . also check out the conservative Buchanon's web site who of course ran for the oval office. plus indymedia.org has some info. Check it out and see what you come up with.

If you read" Tragedy and Hope " by Carol Quiggly (Clinton's mentor), it will give you the facts surrounding our government and it's agenda. Also " Brotherhood of Darkness " by a Christian author ( the name escapes me) . A book that explains the truths behind our government and policies. Facts like the IRS is not a government agency but a private corporation. When Wilson signed the Federal Reserve act he was quoted by saying that he had just signed away the sovereignty of the United States.

And I believe i stated that The US had supplied Iraq with chemical and biological weapons in it's war with Iran. That there is no hard evidence that connects Sadam with 9-11. In fact the majority of the terroists were Saudis and the link was to Saudi Arabia. Syria also.

This war was planned out well before 9-11.

My point in this thread is to somehow see how this all fits if we are presently in the millennium if it does or not.

[wienerdog]

In the Political Science Dept., there is a thread called "Is the Iraq War All About Oil?" or something like that. In it, I present the evidence which ties Iraq to al Qaeda, and it is discussed, disputed, etc.

[Lizard]

Today @ 01:20 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46723#post46723)
wienerdog:

In the Political Science Dept., there is a thread called "Is the Iraq War All About Oil?" or something like that. In it, I present the evidence which ties Iraq to al Qaeda, and it is discussed, disputed, etc.

Good point wienerdog, but lets try to keep all Poli. Sci. discussions in the Poli. Sci. Dept. We need to try to keep this thread on eschatology as much as possible (although with the subject matter I know that that can be dificult)per the thread starter's (Mrsnaks) request:

Yesterday @ 08:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46471#post46471)
mrsnacks:

My point in this thread is to somehow see how this all fits if we are presently in the millennium if it does or not.

Mrsnacks:

You might want to consider creating a seperate thread in the Poli. Sci. Dept. to express your views on the current war as I am sure that there are people who would like to discuss the political issues you brought up on this thread in an appropriate forum.

Also, since this is an eschatology forum, I ask that you only bring up the polical aspects of the war if it is related to its eschotological impact.

Thanks.

[John Reece]

Bush has had previous oil and business dealings with Bin Laden .

:huh:

[John Reece]

In response to my sending him this link:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/979

a friend sent me this reply:

John,

I was in a conference this week where Ted Haggard was speaking. He quoted these latest figures on Christian growth in the world:

+conservative estimates show Islam growth worldwide at 2.7% and Christian growth worldwide at 6.9%.

Approx 69,000 new Christians per day
470 martyrs daily
200,000 net population growth per day worldwide, 69,000 born again.

Estimates conservative (from Bill Bright and George Barna) show approx 1 billion new Christians in next 10 years . . .

What a day to be alive. More and more rebuttal of gloom and doom false prophecy.

[Lizard]

Today @ 09:11 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46894#post46894)
John Reece:

In response to my sending him this link:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/979

a friend sent me this reply:

John,

I was in a conference this week where Ted Haggard was speaking. He quoted these latest figures on Christian growth in the world:

+conservative estimates show Islam growth worldwide at 2.7% and Christian growth worldwide at 6.9%.

Approx 69,000 new Christians per day
470 martyrs daily
200,000 net population growth per day worldwide, 69,000 born again.

Estimates conservative (from Bill Bright and George Barna) show approx 1 billion new Christians in next 10 years . . .

What a day to be alive. More and more rebuttal of gloom and doom false prophecy.

Excelent post JR. :thumb: Things are looking up for Christians.

Now, back to the topic of this thread.

Regardless of the motive for the war, if it results in an Iraq with freedom of religion, then it can only be good news for the future of Christianity.

Also, Just becasue things are supposed to get better according to postmillinial preterism, that does not mean that there will be no more war. I do think that things are getting better, I also think that modern Western culture with immediate news access, tends to focus on the negative. This gives the apearance that things are worse than they have been.

Just my $.02 worth.

[John Reece]

What is needed is an understanding of scripture, knowledge of history, and a sense of perspective that spans both.

The U.S.A. could lose the war in Iraq and be forever demoted from the position of world superpower, and the progressive manifestation of the Kingdom of God in the world would continue its destined course to the ultimate consummation of all God has destined to be done by means of the Church, the Body of Christ in the world.

Not a single human being could have predicted what the Messiah would be and do before he was manifested in Israel circa 2000 years ago – despite all the prophecies the predicted what he would be and do.

Not a single human being can comprehend what the ultimate consummation will be like, except in the highly symbolical, enigmatic terms presented in the scriptures.

Today, the scriptures that relate to what is now present and yet future are just as misunderstood and misinterpreted, as were the scriptures which stumbled the Scribes, Pharisees, and Hypocrites – and yes, even the true believers - in the first century AD.

A competent exegetical scholar put it this way:

"The imperfection of our knowledge, even of revealed truth, is not sufficiently recognized; and hence the rejection of Christianity by so many thoughtful people. Christians often claim to know more than it is possible to know. They forget how much of the Bible is symbolical." - Archibald Robertson, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the First Epistle of St Paul to the Corinthians (ICC)

[Bill the Cat]

I believe it falls in the "wars and rumors of war" category.

[Woman]

mrsnacks:
If the U.S. is wrong in attacking Iraq and possibly other countries after that causing the loss of many innocent lives we will pay with a direct judgement from God.

That's silly. If you think sin is punished in this life time, what's the need for hell? And when was the last time that evil nations got punished? Or more to the point, why would a just God punish innocents for the evil of a minority?

I have one more question. Which is your very favorite conspiracy theory site?

[Bill the Cat]

I have one more question. Which is your very favorite conspiracy theory site?

INFIDELS!!!! :yipee: :yipee: :yipee:

[Woman]

Bill - LOL

Don't you mean AiG?


:yipee: :yipee: :yipee:

[mrsnacks]

Faramir: I realize that the thread I started here may fit better elsewhere if i was just addressing the war but there's more to it. But what I wanted to see, as I stated earlier is,how the war in Iraq fits in relation to the orthodox preterist view which is that we are living in the millennium . It appears strongly that this war in Iraq will lead to a possible war with other Islamic countries such as Iran and Syria. Not Saudi Arabia because of our business interests there. Down the road we will have some problems with N. Korea . So the overall picture looks pretty gloomy for the U.S. economically and morally and the world for that matter. The other side of the coin is that we live by faith and not by sight, and as some have mentioned previously, things may turn out better for the kingdom of God in the long run.

Woman : I don't think it is silly in what I said unless you throw out the Bible and extrabiblical books such as Josephus and Tacitus . Judgement from God came to the Romans and the Jews in 70 A.D. for example for what they did to our Savior. And nations throughout the Old Testament, judgement from God came upon them as well as Israel. The apocalyptic language of Christ' coming in judgement s is used in the Old Testament as well as in Revelation. Hell can exist on earth .

What about Sodom and Gommorah ? What about the flood ?? Adam and Eve ?? Silly ??? I don't think so .

And in my own personal life I have reaped for the sins I've commited in my life.

My favorite conspiracy site is infowars.com . I am amazed that I've gotten more truth from sites like that in the past years than from the non-conspiracy sites. I don't really listen to NBC and CNN etc. It's from the what you label conspiracy sites that I found out who controls the media and their agenda.

Do you know, let's say ,why most members of our government are members of the Council of Foreign Relations ??

The conspiracy sites have informed me years ago and I was laughed at when I brought it up that the US was pushing towards a world government. Is that conspiracy ??

Anyway thanks for the input everyone.

[Lizard]

Today @ 01:15 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=47895#post47895)
mrsnacks:

Faramir: I realize that the thread I started here may fit better elsewhere if i was just addressing the war but there's more to it. But what I wanted to see, as I stated earlier is,how the war in Iraq fits in relation to the orthodox preterist view which is that we are living in the millennium . It appears strongly that this war in Iraq will lead to a possible war with other Islamic countries such as Iran and Syria. Not Saudi Arabia because of our business interests there. Down the road we will have some problems with N. Korea . So the overall picture looks pretty gloomy for the U.S. economically and morally and the world for that matter. The other side of the coin is that we live by faith and not by sight, and as some have mentioned previously, things may turn out better for the kingdom of God in the long run.



I hope you did not misunderstand me mrsnacks. I was saying that there are two potential threads here. One dealing with eschatology, and one dealing with poli. sci. With the poli. sci. issue being one that tends to illicit a lot of emotion, I was just suggesting that, in order to keep the focus on eschatology, an effort should be made to keep the poli. sci. aspect out of the thread as much as possible. I realize that the two issue are somewhat interrelated, but if we focus on eschatology then it will be easier to keep this thread on topic.

Thanks.

I personally think it is a great topic for eschatology. Of course I am a preterist so I am biased. :thumb:

[mrsnacks]

Faramir : I am out of town presently on the road .I do travel and work with a number of unbelievers. It seems they are pretty well versed in the futurist view even though they are anti- Christian. Thanks to the spread of the Left Behind theology along with it's last days cuckooness.

From their worldview they see things getting much worse . They hear of Bush saying that God is on his side in this bringing God into the picture as justification for this war. From all this I know how I would respond if I was a futurist. But as a preterist things could get worse and than better . But I am bouncing this off of you all so I'm careful in not saying the wrong thing.

I have already stated to one of my skeptic friends in private that I have not swallowed this Left Behind myth as so many sincere christians have. I believe they are mistaken. I once believed it but after much studying and searching for the truth ----it's not biblical. it's sensationalism and makes for great dinner conversation, but it's not what the Bible teaches. All this about the coming anti-christ and the worldwide great tribulation and the rapture rescuing christians and taking us to a big feast leaving behind the unbelievers to suffer etc.

So I would appreciate some input from you preterists in how the millennium is supposed to go in regards to world events such as the war in Iraq and it's aftermath. Could this be the beginnings of God dealing with the Muslims or ?????????