The "new song" that is not understood. Rev 14

[calvin]

What do the spiritualizers have to say about this "new song" and what are your thoughts on the "key of David" ? Rev 3:7

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

What do the spiritualizers have to say about this "new song" and what are your thoughts on the "key of David" ? Rev 3:7
Spiritualizers, do you mean spiritualist?

I don't think we have any spiritualist that post here in eschatology.





Or was that an atempt to malign and misrepresent the Preterist position?

[calvin]

Spiritualizers, do you mean spiritualist?

I don't think we have any spiritualist that post here in eschatology.





Or was that an atempt to malign and misrepresent the Preterist position?

Faramir ...spiritualizing a passage is not restricted to preterists ... as an amill historist I use it myself, however I first attemt to understand the passage literally but, if this leads to sensationalism, then I reject it as being literal.
This from a lay person's perspective ... calvin

[dizzle]

Faramir ...spiritualizing a passage is not restricted to preterists ... as an amill historist I use it myself, however I first attemt to understand the passage literally but, if this leads to sensationalism, then I reject it as being literal.

I am sorry to hear you reject the resurrection. When did that happen?

done to prove an important point

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Faramir ...spiritualizing a passage is not restricted to preterists ... as an amill historist I use it myself, however I first attemt to understand the passage literally but, if this leads to sensationalism, then I reject it as being literal.
This from a lay person's perspective ... calvin Well I guess that here is where we differ in our exegetical approach. I look at a passage first in context. That is in that passages context to several things:

1) The passages context within the book of the Bible it is in.
2) The passage context as it compares with other books in the bible written by the same author (if applicable)
3) The passage context as it compares to other passages in the Bible that speak to the same subject matter.
4) The passage context as it compares to other non-biblical literature in the same language/time period/literary genre.
5) The passage context as it relates to the cultural and social practices of the author and/or the original intended audience.

It would be a whole lot easier to pick and choose "what makes sense to me". But since God's ways are not our ways, I trust that his word says what in means in context regardless of whether or not it makes sense to me. I for one feel very uncomfortable making my ability to make sense of a passage be the final arbiter of the meaning of the Word of God.

As Dee Dee pointed out above, for many people the Resurrection is contrary to common sense.

I for one think it is an egregious (probably misspelled) error to place "literalism" before context.

IMHO we should consider the context of the passage first. If the context demands literalism, then we should take the passage as literal. Even if a literal interpritation leads to sensationalism. (ie the Res)

After all, my God is pretty darn sensational. (ditto the Res)

Just my :2cents:

[Jaltus]

The key to interpretation is to read literarily rather than literally. The Biblie is literature and therefore it should be read according to the author's intentions instead of despite them. This means if a passage is intentionally symbolic, read it that way.

Thus, reading literarily means being sensitive to genre, authorial intent, context, and canonical positioning.

[dizzle]

Just as an example:



The literal interpretation of a prophesy may require it to be understood in the spiritual sense. For as regards Israel, Zion, Jerusalem, the Land of Promise, the spiritual and heavenly thing so designated is the real thing and is often (as the NT abundantly proves) what was literally intended. In Scripture the contrast is not between the literal and the psiritual, but between the natural and the spiritual, as it is written, “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward, that which is spirutual. The frist man is of the earth, the second man if the Lord from heaven.” (1 Cor. 15:46-47). These words reveal the rule or principle of God’s order of procedure in the owkring out of His great purpose. Accordingly there is first the natural humanity and afterward the spiritual humanity; first the natural birth and afterward the spiritual birth, first the natureal or earthly Isael, Zion, temple, priesthood, sacrifices, etc, and afterward their spiritual and heavenly counterparts.

We must remember that Biblically speaking, death is not the extinction of man’s being, but rather is another state of being.

Colossians 3:1 states that “if ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above” (and that would include the co-rule with Christ)

Paul’s heavenlies places refer to the spiritual realm, and Peter designates that same place as “Zion” (1 Peter 2:6-9 [reigning] and see also Hebrews 12:22)

People have no problem usually seeing a Christian’s priestly role, and this despite the fact we are not in a literal temple with robes and incense. Why is there such problem them in recognizing our kingly role without a literal throne and scepter.

[dizzle]

What happened to Calvin?

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

What happened to Calvin?
:shrug:

Yeah. I was looking forward to answering his question, once we got this "interpritation" misunderstanding cleared up.

:shrug:

[calvin]

I had to excuse myself in order to dislodge my foot from my mouth ... you know, mouth in motion before putting mind into gear ...my lay persons excuse!

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

I had to excuse myself in order to dislodge my foot from my mouth ... you know, mouth in motion before putting mind into gear ...my lay persons excuse!
:huh:

Not sure what you mean by that.

I hope you mean that you desire a preterist interpritation to your question, and plan to participate in the discussion.


If so, let me know, and will try to get back to you before I am away on vacation (next week)

If you feel bad for something you said, don't. We all get a little foot in mouth from time to time.

It is the truely big man (I assume you are male) that admits it.

[calvin]

Yes, I would like to hear the preterist interpretation of why this "as it were new song" is not understood by other then those described in Rev 14 (the group that immediately follow the numbering of the beast) as it appears there are differences between this group under discussion and those in Rev 7:4.

Also, do preterists note a connection between this unusual new song and the "key of David" ? Rev 3:7 thank you

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Yes, I would like to hear the preterist interpretation of why this "as it were new song" is not understood by other then those described in Rev 14 (the group that immediately follow the numbering of the beast) as it appears there are differences between this group under discussion and those in Rev 7:4.

Also, do preterists note a connection between this unusual new song and the "key of David" ? Rev 3:7 thank you
Great. This is an excelent question, and a promising discussion.

I hope that a preterist will answer this. (I may if I have time before I go out of town next week, but I do have other things I need to do first so I make no promises)

IOW. Please :pray: some nice preterist answer this kind man's question.

[themuzicman]

Obviously, John couldn't understand ENGLISH... :doh:

[calvin]

Discerning whether a passage is to be understood literally or spiritually.

Using Faramir's guidelines, is it possible, or has it been noted in a commentary or journal where a respected theologian has rendered a passage as literal, and another respected theologian has rendered the same passage to spiritually understood?

My question could apply to any biblical passage, but one that interests me ... noted in several places in Revelation but 'condensed' in Rev 15:2 .. the victors (of understanding) over the image mark and number of the beast.

I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that some moderators and/or participants at TWEB are not literalists regarding the interpretation of much of the book of Revelation.

If the mark of the beast is NOT to be understood literally and if the image of the beast is NOT to be understood literally and if the false prophet is NOT to be understood literally how, using Faramir's context guidelines (same book, same author, same subject matter etc) can the numbered beast be interpreted literally ... ie those who claim this to be Nero Caesar?

My elevator may not go to the top floor anymore, but am I missing something here?

Please admonish me gently as I am old and unlearned! calvin

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Discerning whether a passage is to be understood literally or spiritually.

Using Faramir's guidelines, is it possible, or has it been noted in a commentary or journal where a respected theologian has rendered a passage as literal, and another respected theologian has rendered the same passage to spiritually understood?
It happens all the time. The method is certainly not fool proof for several reason. Not the least of which it requires a level of knowledge that is not humanly possible. In order for a single individual to effectively use this method they would have to be an expert in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Ancient literary styles, ancient social science, ancient history, and the list goes on......

Most of us would be lucky to be an expert in just one of these fields. For those of us (like me) who are not experts, we have to research the experts on each of these to form an educated opinion.

So depending on which expert you rely on, you may come to a different conclusion.

But then, if it were easy, there wouldn't be much use for a debate forum, now would there? :wink:

My question could apply to any biblical passage, but one that interests me ... noted in several places in Revelation but 'condensed' in Rev 15:2 .. the victors (of understanding) over the image mark and number of the beast.

I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that some moderators and/or participants at TWEB are not literalists regarding the interpretation of much of the book of Revelation.
You are correct. :smile:

If the mark of the beast is NOT to be understood literally and if the image of the beast is NOT to be understood literally and if the false prophet is NOT to be understood literally how, using Faramir's context guidelines (same book, same author, same subject matter etc) can the numbered beast be interpreted literally ... ie those who claim this to be Nero Caesar?
Well, there not my guidelines, in that I did not come up with this method on my own. :blush:

Not haveing access to my bible (here at work) I can only give you a brief (and add: overly simplistic) synopsis from memory.

Comparing Revelation to other Jewish apocolyptic literature (particularly Daniel), we know that in those cases that "beast" are symbolic of nations. The sea is typically associated with pagan nations and "land" is usually associated with Israel. So the Sea beast can be interpreted as the Roman Empire and the land beast as apostate Isreal.

Olso, elswhere in the bible (mostly OT) are several passages that refer to a "mark" as a sign of covenant. The mark of the beast is a sign of covenant with the sea beast. This is not a literal mark. Note that elswhere in Rev there is a mark given to the followers of the lamb, yet no one seems to have trouble allowing that mark to be symbolic. My interpretation may not be correct, but at least it is consistent.

Which brings me to a somewhat off topic point. When you first posted this thread using the term "spiritualizers" I jumped to what I see now is an erroneous conclusion. You see, us preterist are constantly being accused of not taking the bible "literally" and somehow having less respect for scripture than those who do take the bible "literally". However, as I tried to show above, those who often claim strict literalism don't apply it consistnently (i.e the soon coming time text and the non literal mark for believers in Rev are just 2 examples).

When I read your post, I immediately assumed you were of this camp, and I reacted rather harshly. I see now that you are way too sensible to be in this camp and humbly ask your forgiveness for my undue harshness. (Which you have taken extreemly well).

My elevator may not go to the top floor anymore, but am I missing something here?

Please admonish me gently as I am old and unlearned! calvin
How about admonish you not at all. My earlier admonishment was misplaced. I thought you were being contentious and seeking a fight and not civil discourse. I see now that I was wrong.

Please stop apologizing. Your only errror was your poor choice of words which I attribute to your ignorance of the way those words have been used against preterist in the past. I assume you had no way of knowing. Ignorance should never be admonished, especially when you are trying to resolove that ignorance.

(And my use of the term ignorance is not meant as an admonishment, I use simply to mean a lack of knowledge in a specific area. )

So, I will promise not to admonish unjustly you if you promise to quit apologizing for an honest misunderstaning.

:deal:

[calvin]

Thank you Faramir ... you are a gentle man and in my opinion a scholar.
PS No one responded to my original question re the new song that is not understood, so when time permits perhaps you will.

I am not familiar with forums and the uses of 'quote', reply, quick reply, post a reply etc so I am going to try this 'thank you' on quick reply. Blessings calvin

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Thank you Faramir ... you are a gentle man and in my opinion a scholar.
PS No one responded to my original question re the new song that is not understood, so when time permits perhaps you will.



In the immortal words of another great scholar and gentleman, Bugs Bunny:



[three-year-old voice]He don’t know me very well, do he? :Hehehe :hehe: [/three year old voice]



:fullblush: Don’t think flattery works on me dude. :wink:



I am responding to you not because of your flattering comments, but because I said I would earlier if no other preterist answered it before I had the time.



Well lucky you, I have the time.



I repeat this is not in response to flattery. All posters take note Faramir cannot be bought with flattery (On the other hand, he would sell his first born for some rep points :deal:.).



With that (all in jest) disclaimer aside I will get on to addressing your question(s):



What do the preterist have to say about this "new song" and what are your thoughts on the "key of David" ? Rev 3:7



Yes, I would like to hear the preterist interpretation of why this "as it were new song" is not understood by other then those described in Rev 14 (the group that immediately follow the numbering of the beast) as it appears there are differences between this group under discussion and those in Rev 7:4.

Also, do preterists note a connection between this unusual new song and the "key of David" ? Rev 3:7 thank you



First lets post the texts in question one at a time:







"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.



A careful study of Revelation will reveal that of all the NT books, it has the most references to the OT, and is also the most “Jewish” in nature. In fact I have read that the book was written in Greek but the thought process was Hebrew.



Your question was specifically about the Key of David. Lets see if there is somewhere else in the Bible that mentions the “Key of David” or something similar (hint: there is :wink: )



Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, "Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: 16What have you to do here, and whom have you here, that you have cut out here a tomb for yourself, you who cut out a tomb on the height and carve a dwelling for yourself in the rock? 17Behold, the LORD will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you 18and whirl you around and around, and throw you like a ball into a wide land. There you shall die, and there shall be your glorious chariots, you shame of your master's house. 19I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your station. 20In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, 21and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23And I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house. 24And they will hang on him the whole honor of his father's house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25In that day, declares the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way, and it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken."

emphasis added





The original audience for the book of Revelation was the 7 churches in Asia Minor. You may ask yourself why all the Jewish references if it is to a Gentile group of churches. Well, if you recall in Acts, when Paul began preaching in these “gentile” cities where did he first preach? In the synagogue. There was a large Jewish presence in many 1st century cities in the Mediterranean region, and many (most?) of the early churches were made up of a large number of Jews.



These Jews would have been very familiar with Isaiah, and would have made the connection to the above prophecy. Which, when verse 25 is compared to what happened in AD 70 (i.e. the destruction of Jerusalem) which, from a preterist perspective sealed the end of the old covenant (the peg that was fastened in a secure place that was cut down etc.) and the apostate ethnic Jews were “cut off”. Which is the preterist position (or at least the position of some preterist). Note: The Christian Jews were not cut off and are represented by the 144, 000. But that is a topic for later in this thread.



Now without further study of Isaiah 22 I don’t know it this is a direct messianic prophecy or a typology. But it is clear that John was referring to this passage (especially since in Rev. 3:7 he talks about the door which can not be shut/open which is also from this passage). And that John is declaring that Jesus is the one who has the “Key of David”, and that the existing order was about to change.









And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.



Days of Vengeance[/u] by David Chilton p. 175"]The living creatures and the elders then sing a New Song, and again a choral section is used to explain the symbols. Indeed, our interpretation is confirmed by the expression St. John uses here. The New Song is mentioned seven times in the Old Testament (Ps. 33:3; 40:3; 96:1; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1; Isa. 42:10), always in reference to God’s redemptive/creative acts in history. The New Song celebrates the making of the Covenant and foretells the coming of Christ to bring salvation to the nations and universal victory to the godly:



I had a hunch that the new song was symbolic of the New Covenant, but I wanted to check at least one “expert” before I stated so. (I wish I had another expert cause I have serious problems with some of Chilton’s work, though a lot of his stuff is top notch. But since I am at work and this is the only book I have (on PDF) as a resource it will have to do, and I think he is on the money with this.)



Like I said earlier the 144,000 were the faithful Jews (I think that the number itself is symbolic but since that distinction is not important to the topic at hand I will not elaborate). I have found that main subject of the Bible as a whole is the Covenantal relationship between God and His people. And revelation specifically deals with the breaking of the Old Covenant with ethnic Israel (established in Deut.) and the establishing of the New Covenant with the Church. The 144,000 are ethnic Jews who are the last remnant of those faithful to the Old Covenant. The new song is addressed to them. God didn’t wipe out the Old Covenant and replace it with the New Covenant. He “pruned” the apostate Jews from the true covenant, cast them off and started a New Covenant with the 144, 000 to which he “grafted on” the Gentile believers to form what we call the “Church”.



Now as far as a connection between the Key of David and the New Song. I am not aware of a connection between the two. But that doesn’t mean that there is not one, nor does it mean that other preterist have not made that connection.



Since you ask the question, I assume that you see a connection. If so, I would like to here your thoughts one.



Your humble friend,





:sig:

[kofh2u]

Thank you Faramir ... you are a gentle man and in my opinion a scholar.
PS No one responded to my original question re the new song that is not understood, so when time permits perhaps you will.

I am not familiar with forums and the uses of 'quote', reply, quick reply, post a reply etc so I am going to try this 'thank you' on quick reply. Blessings calvin

The three ideas are related in this way. The key of David...

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel, (of this sixth developmental social stage), of the church (of Protestantism) in Philadelphia, write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the (Aaronic Kohanim) key of David, he that openeth (the mystery of scripture), and no man shutteth (in rational denial); and shutteth (the interpretation), and no man openeth (otherwise);

AND...this is the key is to the hidden manna mentioned in Rev 2:17


Rev. 2:17 He that hath an ear, (listen to this clear meaning), let him hear what the Spirit, (the Sevenfold Psyche), saith unto the churches, (the evolving body of christianity); To him that overcometh, (who sublimates beyond the archaic interpretations of scriptural understandings), will I give to eat of the hidden manna, (the hidden organizational pattern in Genesis), and will give him a white stone, (a marker), and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

THEN, we read that this key opens the "book" that can only be so opened by a specifically named person...

Rev. 5:5 And one of the twenty-four elders (within this book, symbolized by the protagonists of twelve sons of Jacob and twelve apostles to Jesus), as if saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of Judah, the root of David, (one whose name is called by this hearldry, David Judah Layb), hath prevailed to open the book (of Sacred Hebrew Scriptures), and to loose (the mystery of the multuplicity of seven), the seven seals thereof.


THIS IS WHEN THE NEW SONG WILL BE SUNG: That song concerns a 21st century understanding of scripture replacing the ancient doctrines and dogmas:

Rev. 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich (a large denominational church), and increased with goods (accumulated art treasure, land, and income from tithes), and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched (without secularly acceptable scripture confirmations), and miserable, (entrapped in erroneous doctrine and blind dogma), and poor (in a declining membership), and nake (and unprotected from the ever growing Age of Enlightment):

AND... the key turns!

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars (the sevenfold angels of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).


The Song:

Rev. 15:3 And (the Hebrew- christians), they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, (the Old Testament) and the song of the Lamb, (the New Testament), saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

[calvin]

Thank you Faramir and Kofh2u for your views on the new song.

I will digest your comments relating the new song and the New Covenant.

[kofh2u]

Thank you Faramir and Kofh2u for your views on the new song.

I will digest your comments relating the new song and the New Covenant.


Dan. 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan. 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

[kofh2u]

Faramir, hi,
I noticed that you didn't mention Rev15:2 which Calvin seemed particularly interested in.

Here the interpretation I found most simple, direct and explicit. I wonder what you think those verses mean... certainly differnt from all that I set forth on this "song" interpretation. But, I still am interested in a more powerful answer if there is one.

Rev. 15:2 And I saw (in my vague semi-consciousness), as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire (of the Holocaust): and them, (the remnant of Jews), that had gotten the victory over the beast (of the Nazi socio-economic system), and over his image, (Dur Fuhrer), and over his mark, (the Swastika), and over the number of his name, (Hitler), stand on the sea (of history viewed through the) glass (of time), having (demonstrated the power of) the harps of God, (that is, the predictions in the Holy Scriptures).

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Faramir, hi,
I noticed that you didn't mention Rev15:2 which Calvin seemed particularly interested in.

Here the interpretation I found most simple, direct and explicit. I wonder what you think those verses mean... certainly differnt from all that I set forth on this "song" interpretation. But, I still am interested in a more powerful answer if there is one.

Rev. 15:2 And I saw (in my vague semi-consciousness), as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire (of the Holocaust): and them, (the remnant of Jews), that had gotten the victory over the beast (of the Nazi socio-economic system), and over his image, (Dur Fuhrer), and over his mark, (the Swastika), and over the number of his name, (Hitler), stand on the sea (of history viewed through the) glass (of time), having (demonstrated the power of) the harps of God, (that is, the predictions in the Holy Scriptures).
I would say that there is definately a more powerful answer.

IMHO, applying 20th century historical interpretation (along with 19th centry psychoanalystical theory) to a 1st century document is speculation not a valid interpritation.

As far as the beast the image the mark etc, I think I have already addressed that (if not in this thread then elswhere in this forum). The see of glass/fire and the harps of God, I have not addressed, but will try to get to if I have the time.

[kofh2u]

I would say that there is definately a more powerful answer.

IMHO, applying 20th century historical interpretation (along with 19th centry psychoanalystical theory) to a 1st century document is speculation not a valid interpritation.

As far as the beast the image the mark etc, I think I have already addressed that (if not in this thread then elswhere in this forum). The see of glass/fire and the harps of God, I have not addressed, but will try to get to if I have the time.

Far, thankxz...

I look forward to the interp you promise, I mean that.

As you say, applying modern understandings, based upon the knowledge we have today comes up with radical new speculations. Comparing these to those you offer, and which I appreciate reading, since I have no idea what the standard ancient explanations were/are... is exactly the point.

IMHO, applying 16th century guesses/ interpretations (along with 19th century spiritualism) to a 21 century prohesied set of events is accepting archaic anachronism as a valid interpretation of things to come in a highly advanced technological society.

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words (of the Old Testament), and seal the book (of death and hell), even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, traveling freely by land, sea, and even air, and knowledge (in an Age of Enlightenment) shall be increased.

[Pate]

I don't know, but a rumour says that the new song mentioned in Rev 14 may sound like this (http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/).

[kofh2u]

I don't know, but a rumour says that the new song mentioned in Rev 14 may sound like this (http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/).

I was hoping the song would dound morevlike this, because of what Isaiah says:

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
forward into battle see his banners go!
Refrain:
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.



ISAIAH 60

Isa. 60:1 Arise, (Christians), shine; for thy enlightenment is come, and the glory of the LORD, (the meaning of Hebrew scripture), is risen upon thee.

Isa. 60:2 For, behold, (the darkness shall cover the earth for 1000 years, and a Dark Age the gross) darkness of the people: but the LORD, (the Word), shall arise upon thee, and his glory (of Christianity) shall be seen (in the enlightenment) upon thee.

Isa. 60:3 And the Gentiles (of Western Culture) shall come to thy
enlightenment, and kings (of the Christian denominations) to the brightness of (the prophecy of) thy rising.

Isa. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes (you people of Israel) round about, and
see: all, (the two billion Christians, they) gather themselves together,
they come to thee (in the Promised Land): thy sons (of the diaspora) shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

Isa. 60:5 Then thou shalt see (these hoards of Christianity), and flow together (with them), and thine heart shall fear (the truth of Christ), and be enlarged (in understanding); because the abundance of the sea (of Western nations) shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles, (Christians, now two billions in number), shall come unto thee.

Isa. 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come (to pilgrimage in the Holy Land): they shall bring gold and incense (the revenue of their tourism); and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD (in his Promised Land).

Isa. 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto
thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory, (the House of Israel and Judah).

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves of peace to their (cathedral) windows?

Isa. 60:9 Surely the isles (of the New World) shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish, (first from North America), to bring thy sons (of Abraham) from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, (Christ), because he hath glorified thee (in Christianity).

Isa. 60:10 And the sons of strangers (from the Americas) shall build up thy walls, and their kings (of the Christian denominations) shall minister peace unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee (in Holocaust), but in my favour have I had mercy on thee (and brought thee into the Promised Land).

Isa. 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the (Christian) Gentiles, and that their kings (of the Christian denominations) may be brought (to the Holy Lands).

Isa 60:12 For the nation or (denominational church of the Christian) kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

Isa. 60:13 The glory (of Golan Heights) of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree (of the West Bank), the pine tree (in Bethlehem), and the box (of Gaza) together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet, (Jerusalem), glorious.

Isa. 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee, (Germany and Western Europe, Russia), shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee, (you Holy People of scripture), shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, (Hebrew-Christian), The city of the (New Jerusalem) of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel, The Promised Land.

Isa. 60:15 Whereas thou,(the Jew), hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations in the spiritual fulfillment of scripture.

Isa. 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the (Christian) Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of (the kings of Christianity): and thou shalt know that I the LORD, (the almighty Power of the Universe), am thy Saviour (and Christ) thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa. 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace-officers (throughout the Promised Land), and thine exactors
(of taxes) righteousness (in the economic productivity of masive tourism throughout Israel).

Isa. 60:18 Violence (of Terrorism) shall no more be heard in thy land,
wasting (by armies) nor destruction (with extortionist bombings) within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls (Jewish) Salvation, and thy gates (Christian) Praise.

Isa. 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD, (Jesus),
shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God, (the Reality of the Universe), thy glory.

Isa. 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon
withdraw itself (in that day when electricity will light the land): for
the LORD, (Jesus), shall be thine everlasting light (drawing unending
pilgrims day and night to thee), and the (2000 years of) days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Isa. 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit
the (Promised) land for ever, the branch of my planting (the tree of Christianity throughout the whole world), the work of my hands, that
I may be glorified.

Isa. 60:22 A little one shall bevome a thousand (in 1948), and a small (area of the Holy Land) a strong nation in 2004 AD; I the Lord, (Jesus), will hasten it, (the enlargement to the whole of the lands promised) in (Israel's time), his time.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

I would say that there is definately a more powerful answer.

IMHO, applying 20th century historical interpretation (along with 19th centry psychoanalystical theory) to a 1st century document is speculation not a valid interpritation.

As far as the beast the image the mark etc, I think I have already addressed that (if not in this thread then elswhere in this forum). The see of glass/fire and the harps of God, I have not addressed, but will try to get to if I have the time.
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have been much busier than I thought I would be.

I have done a little research into this verse and must admit that I am not satisfied with much of what I am finding.

I will say this, that the sea of glass/fire (as opposed to the sea of glass alone) has been interpreted by some as being representative of the two types of baptism in the NT, the baptism of John (Old Covenant) by water (glass) and the baptism of the Holy spirit by fire (New Covenant). Since I see the entire book of Revelation as a proclamation of the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new covenant, I would have to say that I concuur (at least initially) with that interpritation.

Other than that, I am at a loss for a solid interpritation of this verse at this time, but will continue to study it (as time allows, which will not be for some time yet).

While this was not as thorough as I would like to have been, I gave you what I could.

I hope you find this helpful.

[kofh2u]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have been much busier than I thought I would be.

I have done a little research into this verse and must admit that I am not satisfied with much of what I am finding.

I will say this, that the sea of glass/fire (as opposed to the sea of glass alone) has been interpreted by some as being representative of the two types of baptism in the NT, the baptism of John (Old Covenant) by water (glass) and the baptism of the Holy spirit by fire (New Covenant). Since I see the entire book of Revelation as a proclamation of the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new covenant, I would have to say that I concuur (at least initially) with that interpritation.

Other than that, I am at a loss for a solid interpritation of this verse at this time, but will continue to study it (as time allows, which will not be for some time yet).

While this was not as thorough as I would like to have been, I gave you what I could.

I hope you find this helpful.



I beeve your metaphorical and poetic intuitions are most certainly ONE of the seal levelsvof understanding this Book of Revelation.

Rev. 5:5 ... behold, the Lion of Judah, the root of David, (one whose name is called by this hearldry, David Judah Layb), hath prevailed to open the book (of Sacred Hebrew Scriptures), and to loose (the mystery of) the seven seals thereof.