DF, the Land and the Scriptures

[Hitch]

One of the foundational positions of DF (Dispensational/Futurism) is the 'Unconditional Covenant'.


Without this there is no basis for the predicted future earthly and spiritual greatness of the Nation.

...That covenant is wholly gracious and unconditional. The descendendants of Abe had but to abide in their own land to inherit every blessing...the latter (the covenant) is everlasting because unconditional

P 20 SRB




Gen 17:1-7
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
(KJV)



Gen 18:19
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
(KJV)


It would be near impossible to find anything more specifically conditional. The HS goes so far as to spell out the very conditions that DFs would tell us did not exist. This theme is repeated when God speaks to Issac;



(KJV)


Gen 26:1-3
1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
(KJV)

Gen 26:4-5
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Again the Covenant is based on the condition of faithful obedience, stated in the plainest of terms above.



But still there is more;regarding Israel...

Lev 26:40-42
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
(KJV)


There is no case for an 'unconditional covenant'. It does not exist.



Take care

Hitch


__________________

[GrayPilgrim]

What about Genesis 15?:huh:

[joelkaki]

And of course, Israel's disobedience climaxed (you might even say it overloaded) with their rejection of Christ as the Messiah. God took the kingdom away from physical Israel at that point. (Matt 21:43).


Joel

[Hitch]

Looks as though another plank has rotted through.

[Bill the Cat]

Well, I gotta strengthen the plank then

Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Sorry Hitch, but you can't get past the word that God gave.

God makes it clear that He will not turn completely on Israel.
Jer 31:37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

God will chasten them and punish them, but note the language He uses here:
Jer 46:28 "O Jacob My servant, do not fear," declares the LORD, "For I am with you. For I will make a full end of all the nations Where I have driven you, Yet I will not make a full end of you; But I will correct you properly And by no means leave you unpunished."

So you see, God will not turn His back on Israel, but He will chasten them.

[Jacob]

01-29-2003 @ 07:37 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2532#post2532)
Hitch:


There is no case for an 'unconditional covenant'. It does not exist.



Take care

Hitch


__________________


Did you fail to notice Genesis 12? Where is the condition in Genesis 12, when the Abrahamic covenant is given?

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;
Gen 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
Gen 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."


Did you fail to notice Genesis 15? Only God passes between the animal carcasses, indicating an unconditional covenant.

Gen 15:17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite
Gen 15:20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim
Gen 15:21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite."

The later Covenants don't invalidate the earlier covenant.

Jacob

[Hitch]

Well Cat what is different about this New Covenant is its permance. The OC was designed to be temporary .Our covenant, the one you spoke of is eternal it can never become obselete by something better coming along. It can never be replaced as there is nothing in existence more powerful or costly than the shed Blood of Christ.

But what this has to do with the supposed unconditional nature of Abe's covenant is beyond me.


Jacob you answer is in post number 1.


Take care

H

[Bill the Cat]

Well, understanding covenants the way I do, there are always conditions, the old, and the new, as well as the personal covenants for individuals like Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, et al. That's one of the reasons that there were 2 tablets for the Law. One was given to each member of the covenant and it was to be kept in the place where the 2 parties gathered. I am not sure how any of this affects dispensational thought in the least bit?? :huh:

Now I understand why Cirisme wanted to do this to me: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=101332#post101332

[Jacob]

Today @ 02:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=110854#post110854)
Hitch:

Jacob you answer is in post number 1.


Take care

H

Hitch,

The Unconditional Abrahamic Covenant is given in Genesis 12 & 15, which predate the conditional covenants you cite in later passages.

The passages you cited show a conditional dimension (possession of the land) of a Covenant which is fundamentally unconditional.

Jacob

[Spokoina]

The point of Gen 15 is not whether there was a covenant, but the very fact that it shows that there is no difference between the inheritance of the Jews and the Gentiles. The dispensational theology makes an artificial distinction between heavenly promises for the 'body' and earthly promises for the nation of Israel, neither which is exclusive in the scripture.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in Jehovah. And He counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 15:7 And He said to him, I am Jehovah that brought you out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give you this land to inherit it.

Paul explicitly refers to this Genesis 15 covenant as Abram in his uncircumcision in Romans 4. In Romans 9, Paul explicitly says the Gentiles have achieved that standard which allows them to be heirs with Israel ..the righteousness of faith. And what was given in the Genesis 15 covenant? Oh, the exact same thing as the covenant of circumcision referred to in Gen. 17. Exact same.


Rom 4:9 Is this blessedness then on the circumcision only, or on the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith

Paul again refers to the Gen. 15 covenant, applies it to the Gentiles for their co-heir status. Again.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Therefore know that those of faith, these are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all nations be blessed."
Gal 3:9 So then those of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And the promise? same in uncircumcision as in circumcision, Romans 4, Gen 15 and 17.

Ironically, Jesus promised heavenly treasures to the Jews.

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

The distinction between the body of Christ and the nation of Israel is artifically drawn. Before Abraham was, Christ is, and therefore if you are Christ's, then you are in the seed of Abraham. IF I belong to Abrahams ancestor, then even not direct descendant of Abraham, I am of his same seed.

God bless.

[Hitch]

05-29-2003 @ 03:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111457#post111457)
Bill the Cat:

Well, understanding covenants the way I do, there are always conditions, the old, and the new, as well as the personal covenants for individuals like Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, et al. That's one of the reasons that there were 2 tablets for the Law. One was given to each member of the covenant and it was to be kept in the place where the 2 parties gathered. I am not sure how any of this affects dispensational thought in the least bit?? :huh:

Now I understand why Cirisme wanted to do this to me: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=101332#post101332
Because Cat, in DF thinking. of the classical variety, the unconditionality of that covenant formed the basis for modern Israel's claims to the Land. And here you are basically saying the roof is still on so the crumbling foundation doesnt matter... heh heh heh.


Take care

Hitch


Fine stuff there new guy... welcome to the forum

[Bill the Cat]

I guess, to me, the Abrahamic covenant was more a reward for faith than an agreement between the two.