Mormonism and Christianity, 10 Differences

[Trout]

A friend of mine wrote this, and uses it as a part of his ministry directed toward the LDS folks, the article is here (http://www.mormoninfo.org/home/differences.asp):


1) What is the Church?



Mormons believe:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church; all other churches are "wrong", all their creeds an "abomination", and all who profess them are "corrupt" (Joseph Smith?History 1:19, The Pearl of Great Price).

Christians believe:

The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches (Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:4-13).


2) Are there other Gods?



Mormons believe:

There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and worthy Mormons may become gods there some day. On those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7; Abraham 4:1, The Pearl of Great Price; and Gospel Principles, 290).

Christians believe:

There is only one God who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; and John 1:1-3).


3) About the Trinity:



Mormons believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods, who are one in purpose and nature, but not in a Being they share eternally (Ibid.).

Christians believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, who are eternally one in purpose, nature, and Being (Ibid.; Matthew 3:16; 4:10; and 28:16-19).


4) Are men and God the same nature or species?



Mormons believe:

The nature of these gods is identical to the nature of man, and as such these humans had to become gods; they haven?t always been gods (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345; Thomas C. Romney, The Life of Lorenzo Snow, 46; and Doctrine and Covenants 130:22).

Christians believe:

God has His own unique nature that man, a created being by definition cannot ever have. God is God by nature, and not by obtainment (Psalms 90:2; Hosea 11:9; Acts 14:15; Galatians 4:8; and 2 Peter 1:3-4).


5) Is God married?



Mormons believe:

God the Father has at least one wife by which we on this world were all literally born as spirit children prior to taking on our tangible bodies of flesh and bones via our mortal parents (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 516-7; and Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, 50).

Christians believe:

Since God is not a man by nature it is impossible for Him as God to even have a wife. It is just as impossible for God to lie. Further, God does not even have a body that He would need to produce us. Marriage requires partiality, receiving counsel from the other partner, and compromise. But God cannot do these either. Finally, He does not need anything, let alone a wife, to become God (Ibid.; 1 Kings 8:27; and Hebrews 6:18).


6) Does the Father have a Father?



Mormons believe:

God the Father had a Father whom He followed as Jesus had followed Him in order to become a god (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373).

Christians believe:

There is no other God before God. He is not so weak that He needed to serve and receive counsel from some other God in order to become God; He always was God (Ps. 90:2; Isa. 40:12-20; and Isa. 43:10).


7) Is there anything that the Father did not create?



Mormons believe:

Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Ibid.; and Doctrine and Covenants 93:29; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:21-24).

Christians believe:

There is only one Being who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; John 1:1-3; and Acts 17:28).


8) Is there anything that the Son did not create?



Mormons believe:

Jesus being the literal son of exalted human gods obviously did not create all things either. That is why He is referred to as Lucifer?s as well as our elder brother in the pre-earth life (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel through the Ages, 15).

Christians believe:

Jesus existed prior to becoming man as "the only begotten God" (John 1:18, New American Standard). As such, He created everything that was ever created from the very beginning (John 1:1-3). To relativize this creation to only concerning the things of this world devalues and cheapens Jesus, who has not only the nature of man (1 Timothy 2:5), but also the nature of "God over all blessed forever" (Romans 9:5).


9) Does the Son receive the same worship as the Father?



Mormons believe:

Jesus is not worshipped equally with the Father, since Jesus is not our begetter. Jesus is not even directly prayed to. Prayer is directed only to the Father in the name of Jesus (BYU Devotional [March 2, 1982], 17, 19, and 20).

Christians believe:

Since Jesus is God by nature, He is worshipped equally with the Father. Jesus receives both worship and prayer, and we are commanded to do so (Mt. 4:10; 28:16-19; Jn. 5:18-23; 14:14 [NAS]; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2; and 1 Jn. 5:13-15).

10) What role do good works play with our standing before God?



Mormons believe:

Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 5:27-28; 11:37; 34:33-35; Moroni 10:32; Doctrine and Covenants 42:18; 58:43; 82:7; 2nd Article of Faith; and Gospel Principles, 75-77).

Christians believe:

Salvation is a free gift that must be received through faith alone, and this automatically is demonstrated by the overall good life produced by it (Romans 4:5; 11:6; Galatians 3:11, 23-26; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 Jn. 5:10-13).

Copyrighted article quoted with permission www.mormoninfo.org

[Jude3b]

You have given scripture references for the definition that you say Christians have of the church. In reading each of these verses - it is clear that your definition is very different from the definition you give to the church.

Where do you get "Mystical" from? Are you a Mystic?

Where is the Biblical support for all the different sects and denominations that make up your definition of the church?

What denomination are you a part of?

[Jin-Roh]

its strange that no LDSers have challenged this so far.

[John Powell]

TROUTK:
A friend of mine wrote this, and uses it as a part of his ministry directed toward the LDS folks, the article is here :

TROUTK'S FRIEND:
1) What is the Church?

Mormons believe:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church; all other churches are "wrong", all their creeds an "abomination", and all who profess them are "corrupt" (Joseph Smith?History 1:19, The Pearl of Great Price).

Christians believe:

The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches (Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:4-13).



JOHN MORMON:
Acts 15:35-41 only speaks of them visiting their brethren. It does not mean they were going to visit various Christian groups whose doctrines differed from each other. Acts 20:28 speaks of the church of God, but it does not imply that it's various denominations with various beliefs. It implies there's only one true set of beliefs. 1 Cor 11:19 has Paul criticizing differences of practice rather than supporting them. 1 Cor 12:13 speaks of "one body" not multiple bodies or denominations each preaching their own version of the Gospel. This speaks of one faith and one baptism, yet the various Christian denominations differ on the particulars of their faith on how the baptism is to be performed and other significant issues.

Since this seems to be controversial between us, why don't we ask God Himself what we should do? That's what Joseph Smith did.

Joseph Smith History, Pearl of Great Price
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. . .


JOHN MORMON:
Jesus, Himself says you're wrong.

TROUTK'S FRIEND:

2) Are there other Gods?

Mormons believe:

There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and worthy Mormons may become gods there some day. On those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7; Abraham 4:1, The Pearl of Great Price; and Gospel Principles, 290).

Christians believe:

There is only one God who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; and John 1:1-3).



JOHN MORMON:
Where does the Bible clearly indicate that God created more than just the Earth, Moon, Sun, and nearby stars? Where does it clearly imply that He created all the GALAXIES and the UNIVERSE itself?

TROUTK'S FRIEND:

3) About the Trinity:

Mormons believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods, who are one in purpose and nature, but not in a Being they share eternally (Ibid.).

Christians believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, who are eternally one in purpose, nature, and Being (Ibid.; Matthew 3:16; 4:10; and 28:16-19).



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one like He was one with the Father (John 17:11). Surely, Jesus was not hoping the disciples would become a trinity-sort of thing.

God said, "let US . . ." implying there was more than one God involved in creation.

Stephen saw God (the Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. That's two.

Acts 7 (KJV):
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of eGod.


JOHN MORMON:
Joseph Smith claimed the same thing in his history. When Jesus was baptized, the Father was speaking from the clouds and the Holy Ghost was in the sign of the dove. That's three.

Perhaps Trinitarians choose to believe in a hard-to-comprehend God partly because they think that elevates God above us despicable humans. The actual God is not so hard to comprehend and not so much greater than we.

TROUT'S FRIEND:

4) Are men and God the same nature or species?

Mormons believe:

The nature of these gods is identical to the nature of man, and as such these humans had to become gods; they haven?t always been gods (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345; Thomas C. Romney, The Life of Lorenzo Snow, 46; and Doctrine and Covenants 130:22).

Christians believe:

God has His own unique nature that man, a created being by definition cannot ever have. God is God by nature, and not by obtainment (Psalms 90:2; Hosea 11:9; Acts 14:15; Galatians 4:8; and 2 Peter 1:3-4).



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus proved that a man can become God. Therefore, it's possible for us to become Gods.

Jesus argued with his critics that if the O.T. claimed that they were Gods, then why was it so wrong for Him to claim that He was the Son of God?

John 10 (KJV):
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


JOHN MORMON:
We are commanded to be perfect like God is perfect.

Matt. 5: 48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


JOHN MORMON:
Why? Because it's possible for us to be like God.

TROUT'S FRIEND:

5) Is God married?

Mormons believe:

God the Father has at least one wife by which we on this world were all literally born as spirit children prior to taking on our tangible bodies of flesh and bones via our mortal parents (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 516-7; and Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, 50).

Christians believe:

Since God is not a man by nature it is impossible for Him as God to even have a wife. It is just as impossible for God to lie. Further, God does not even have a body that He would need to produce us. Marriage requires partiality, receiving counsel from the other partner, and compromise. But God cannot do these either. Finally, He does not need anything, let alone a wife, to become God (Ibid.; 1 Kings 8:27; and Hebrews 6:18).



JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, Christians believe males have power that God does not because we can lie and we can have a wife. Since the Gods created Adam and Eve in their image, it should not surprise us that God is male and God's wife is female.

The idea of God being our Father makes a lot more sense if God is the father of our spirits rather than just the creator of our bodies.

TROUT'S FRIEND:

6) Does the Father have a Father?

Mormons believe:

God the Father had a Father whom He followed as Jesus had followed Him in order to become a god (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373).

Christians believe:

There is no other God before God. He is not so weak that He needed to serve and receive counsel from some other God in order to become God; He always was God (Ps. 90:2; Isa. 40:12-20; and Isa. 43:10).



JOHN MORMON:
Rev 1 (KJV):
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


JOHN MORMON:
It says Jesus made us kings and priests unto God (the father of Jesus ) AND HIS FATHER (i.e., the father of the father of Jesus). There you go.

TROUT'S FRIEND:

7) Is there anything that the Father did not create?

Mormons believe:

Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Ibid.; and Doctrine and Covenants 93:29; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:21-24).

Christians believe:

There is only one Being who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; John 1:1-3; and Acts 17:28).



JOHN MORMON:
Gen 1 speaks of THIS EARTH, the Solar System, and the nearby stars. It says NOTHING about the universe beyond that. Deut 4:39 is only speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby stars and perhaps wherever God dwells. Likewise Isa 40:12-20. If Isaiah had meant to say that God created the Milky Way Galaxy and the superclusters of galaxies, why didn't he say so instead of focusing on merely our planet and what we can see in the sky?

Isa 43:10, 44:6-8 may only be saying that there is no other Godhead FOR THIS EARTH besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Isa 44:24 goes back again to speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby regions. God did NOT create everything since God did not create Himself. You'll probably say "What God meant was that He made everything in the universe." Well, gee, it doesn't say or clearly imply that. On the contrary, it implies that God made everything related to THIS EARTH and the nearby regions.

TROUT'S FRIEND:

8) Is there anything that the Son did not create?

Mormons believe:

Jesus being the literal son of exalted human gods obviously did not create all things either. That is why He is referred to as Lucifer?s as well as our elder brother in the pre-earth life (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel through the Ages, 15).

Christians believe:

Jesus existed prior to becoming man as "the only begotten God" (John 1:18, New American Standard). As such, He created everything that was ever created from the very beginning (John 1:1-3). To relativize this creation to only concerning the things of this world devalues and cheapens Jesus, who has not only the nature of man (1 Timothy 2:5), but also the nature of "God over all blessed forever" (Romans 9:5).



JOHN MORMON:
Now, you're saying that Jesus created everything THAT WAS CREATED which leaves open the opportunity to claim that God was not created. Well, all it means is that Jesus, under the direction of the Father, created everything physical related TO THIS EARTH.

TROUT'S FRIEND:

9) Does the Son receive the same worship as the Father?

Mormons believe:

Jesus is not worshipped equally with the Father, since Jesus is not our begetter. Jesus is not even directly prayed to. Prayer is directed only to the Father in the name of Jesus (BYU Devotional [March 2, 1982], 17, 19, and 20).

Christians believe:

Since Jesus is God by nature, He is worshipped equally with the Father. Jesus receives both worship and prayer, and we are commanded to do so (Mt. 4:10; 28:16-19; Jn. 5:18-23; 14:14 [NAS]; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2; and 1 Jn. 5:13-15).



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus taught us how to pray and it wasn't "Jesus, our Savior, . . ." but rather it was "Our Father who art in heaven, . . ."

TROUT'S FRIEND:

10) What role do good works play with our standing before God?

Mormons believe:

Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 5:27-28; 11:37; 34:33-35; Moroni 10:32; Doctrine and Covenants 42:18; 58:43; 82:7; 2nd Article of Faith; and Gospel Principles, 75-77).

Christians believe:

Salvation is a free gift that must be received through faith alone, and this automatically is demonstrated by the overall good life produced by it (Romans 4:5; 11:6; Galatians 3:11, 23-26; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 Jn. 5:10-13).



JOHN MORMON:
That sounds contradictory. Does a Christian have to obey the commandments of God to be saved? Let me remind them that "to believe" is one of the commandments. The answer is YES. What they don't seem to realize is that God on His own initiative, without compulsion, CHOSE to provide us a way to be saved. Without His plan our efforts would be to naught. However, now that the plan is in place and Jesus did His part, it's up to us to obey the commandments.

It's like the parents who provide an opportunity for their children to play sports, learn music, get a car, go to college, get married, etc. It's then up to the children to take advantage of those opportunities by following whatever stipulations the parents made.

John Powell

[Jude3b]

You have given scripture references for the definition that you say Christians have of the church. In reading each of these verses - it is clear that your definition is very different from the definition you give to the church.

Where do you get "Mystical" from? Are you a Mystic?

Where is the Biblical support for all the different sects and denominations that make up your definition of the church?

What denomination are you a part of?

Dear Troutk13: The verses you quoted on the church don't say the same as your definition of the church. Even a Mormon could come up with a closer definition of the church, from what you have written...

[Trout]

Dear Troutk13: The verses you quoted on the church don't say the same as your definition of the church. Even a Mormon could come up with a closer definition of the church, from what you have written...
Hello Jude3b,

Do you think that my friends definition of "church" is correct and that the statement simply isn't footnoted properly?

Or do you disagree with his definition altogether?

If you disagree altogether, can you provide a definition of the "church" as it applies currently to Christianity.

I also believe that my friend chose the word "mystical" meaning that there is a spiritual or unseen bond which binds together those belonging to the "church".

Jude3b, are you LDS?

[Jin-Roh]

Hey John Mormon.

Do you realize that by challenging Christianity on interpretation you've proven what the author of the article wasn't trying to illustrate?

[John Powell]

Hey John Mormon.

Do you realize that by challenging Christianity on interpretation you've proven what the author of the article wasn't trying to illustrate?

JOHN MORMON:
That depends on what you're referring to.

If you're referring to the claim that Mormonism and mainstream Christianity differ in their interpretation of the Bible then big deal.

What the author presumably was trying to show is that Mormon doctrine is contrary to the correct doctrine of Biblical Christianity.

John Powell

[Jin-Roh]

JOHN MORMON:
That depends on what you're referring to.

If you're referring to the claim that Mormonism and mainstream Christianity differ in their interpretation of the Bible then big deal.

What the author presumably was trying to show is that Mormon doctrine is contrary to the correct doctrine of Biblical Christianity.

John Powell

You've nearly said the same statement two diffrent ways there.
The only thing you added in the second statement is your view that Mormon Doctrine is correct and Christians are wrong.

[John Powell]

JOHN MORMON:
That depends on what you're referring to.

If you're referring to the claim that Mormonism and mainstream Christianity differ in their interpretation of the Bible then big deal.

What the author presumably was trying to show is that Mormon doctrine is contrary to the correct doctrine of Biblical Christianity.

John Powell

JIN-ROH
You've nearly said the same statement two diffrent ways there.
The only thing you added in the second statement is your view that Mormon Doctrine is correct and Christians are wrong.


JOHN MORMON:
You're reading poorly, Jin-Roh. The second statement does not express my view that Mormon doctrine is correct. It's the kind of statement that a pro-Christian writer might also have made. Do you disagree with that second statement?

The statement

1. Mormons and mainstream Christians have differing interpretations of the Bible

is essentially the same as

2. Mormon doctrine is different from Biblical Christianity

*IF* mainstream Christianity is the same as Biblical Christianity. That's the controversy. Mormons and mainstream Christians agree that statement 1 is true, but they don't agree whether statement 2 is true.

John Powell

[Jude3b]

Hello Jude3b,

Do you think that my friends definition of "church" is correct and that the statement simply isn't footnoted properly?

Or do you disagree with his definition altogether?

If you disagree altogether, can you provide a definition of the "church" as it applies currently to Christianity.

I also believe that my friend chose the word "mystical" meaning that there is a spiritual or unseen bond which binds together those belonging to the "church".

Jude3b, are you LDS?

I disagree with the definition. It does not in any way match the scripture verses that were quoted. The church can be defined from Scripture and does not need some fanciful man made defintion about how "mystical" it is!

First, the church is the Body of Christ: "And hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph. 1:22, 23).

The body of which Christ is the head is the church that he built; yea, "the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts. 20:28).
This is the only church taught in the New Testament. We can find out exactly what constitutes this church by reading the Bible statements about what constitutes the body of Christ, which only is the church. "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: so we (true Bible Christians), being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Rom. 12:4, 5)

The universal body of true believers constitutes the church of God for which Christ died. You can not have salvation, can not be a member of Christ, without thereby being a member of the body of Christ; for "now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him" (I Cor. 12:18). Inversely, it is impossible to be a member of the body of Christ without being a member of Christ himself.

The Religionists on theology web are all arguing about their personal idol - their personal Religion, Denomination, sect. But Christianity is none of those. True Christianity is not a religion, not an idol. It is a relationship between the living God and His People, His body, the church of God that He bought and paid for. And I for one, am sure glad that He did! Amen.

[Trout]

I disagree with the definition. It does not in any way match the scripture verses that were quoted. The church can be defined from Scripture and does not need some fanciful man made defintion about how "mystical" it is!

First, the church is the Body of Christ: "And hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph. 1:22, 23).

The body of which Christ is the head is the church that he built; yea, "the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts. 20:28).
This is the only church taught in the New Testament. We can find out exactly what constitutes this church by reading the Bible statements about what constitutes the body of Christ, which only is the church. "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: so we (true Bible Christians), being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Rom. 12:4, 5)

The universal body of true believers constitutes the church of God for which Christ died. You can not have salvation, can not be a member of Christ, without thereby being a member of the body of Christ; for "now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him" (I Cor. 12:18). Inversely, it is impossible to be a member of the body of Christ without being a member of Christ himself.

The Religionists on theology web are all arguing about their personal idol - their personal Religion, Denomination, sect. But Christianity is none of those. True Christianity is not a religion, not an idol. It is a relationship between the living God and His People, His body, the church of God that He bought and paid for. And I for one, am sure glad that He did! Amen. The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches How does your definition differ from my friend's, they seem to be identical, other than your verse references.

[Trout]

JOHN MORMON:


20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. . .


JOHN MORMON:
Jesus, Himself says you're wrong.
Apparently Joseph didn't think too highly of the instructions he received:

But, Fayette Lapham said that about 1830 Smith's father told him that Joseph had joined the Baptist church in about 1824 (Historical Magazine, Vol. 8, No. 5, May 1870, pp. 305-306)

Emma Smith's cousins, Joseph and Heil Lewis, were members of the Methodist church which Joseph tried to join in Harmony, Pennsylvania. They said, "Joseph presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members" (The Amboy Journal, April 30, 1879).

So he became a member of the Baptist church, then tried to join the Methodist church after receiving first hand instructions, in no uncertain terms not to. Makes me think he made up the vision.




JOHN MORMON:
Where does the Bible clearly indicate that God created more than just the Earth, Moon, Sun, and nearby stars?
Where does it clearly imply that He created all the GALAXIES and the UNIVERSE itself?
How about the Pearl of Great Price?

33 ("") And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one like He was one with the Father (John 17:11). Surely, Jesus was not hoping the disciples would become a trinity-sort of thing.

God said, "let US . . ." implying there was more than one God involved in creation.

Stephen saw God (the Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. That's two.

Acts 7 (KJV):
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of eGod.


JOHN MORMON:
Joseph Smith claimed the same thing in his history. When Jesus was baptized, the Father was speaking from the clouds and the Holy Ghost was in the sign of the dove. That's three.

Perhaps Trinitarians choose to believe in a hard-to-comprehend God partly because they think that elevates God above us despicable humans. The actual God is not so hard to comprehend and not so much greater than we.
The BOM affirms what the Bible says in many places, that there is one God.

"And now,behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

"..unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God....."

Joseph Smith goes against the very words in the BOM.



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus proved that a man can become God. Therefore, it's possible for us to become Gods.

Jesus argued with his critics that if the O.T. claimed that they were Gods, then why was it so wrong for Him to claim that He was the Son of God?

John 10 (KJV):
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


JOHN MORMON:
We are commanded to be perfect like God is perfect.

Matt. 5: 48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


JOHN MORMON:
Why? Because it's possible for us to be like God.
Being "like God" and becoming God are quite different, we are like God in many ways being created in His image, but being God is reserved for God alone.

Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.



JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, Christians believe males have power that God does not because we can lie and we can have a wife. Since the Gods created Adam and Eve in their image, it should not surprise us that God is male and God's wife is female.

The idea of God being our Father makes a lot more sense if God is the father of our spirits rather than just the creator of our bodies.
And where in the Bible or the BOM is this concept expressed?



JOHN MORMON:
Rev 1 (KJV):
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


JOHN MORMON:
It says Jesus made us kings and priests unto God (the father of Jesus ) AND HIS FATHER (i.e., the father of the father of Jesus). There you go.
Joseph Smith re-translated that particular passage as follows:

And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.

Joseph's version is different than the one you quoted, and it takes away the point which you tried to make.



JOHN MORMON:
Gen 1 speaks of THIS EARTH, the Solar System, and the nearby stars. It says NOTHING about the universe beyond that. Deut 4:39 is only speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby stars and perhaps wherever God dwells. Likewise Isa 40:12-20. If Isaiah had meant to say that God created the Milky Way Galaxy and the superclusters of galaxies, why didn't he say so instead of focusing on merely our planet and what we can see in the sky?

Isa 43:10, 44:6-8 may only be saying that there is no other Godhead FOR THIS EARTH besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Isa 44:24 goes back again to speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby regions. God did NOT create everything since God did not create Himself. You'll probably say "What God meant was that He made everything in the universe." Well, gee, it doesn't say or clearly imply that. On the contrary, it implies that God made everything related to THIS EARTH and the nearby regions.



JOHN MORMON:
Now, you're saying that Jesus created everything THAT WAS CREATED which leaves open the opportunity to claim that God was not created. Well, all it means is that Jesus, under the direction of the Father, created everything physical related TO THIS EARTH.
If all things were created by Christ,(John chapter 1) that leaves a very short list of things that exist that He didn't create.

1. God

And let's not forget what the POGP has to say:

And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus taught us how to pray and it wasn't "Jesus, our Savior, . . ." but rather it was "Our Father who art in heaven, . . ."
Good point.



JOHN MORMON:
That sounds contradictory. Does a Christian have to obey the commandments of God to be saved? Let me remind them that "to believe" is one of the commandments. The answer is YES. What they don't seem to realize is that God on His own initiative, without compulsion, CHOSE to provide us a way to be saved. Without His plan our efforts would be to naught. However, now that the plan is in place and Jesus did His part, it's up to us to obey the commandments.

It's like the parents who provide an opportunity for their children to play sports, learn music, get a car, go to college, get married, etc. It's then up to the children to take advantage of those opportunities by following whatever stipulations the parents made.

John Powell
Good works are the natural outworking of a saving faith, that faith however is the gift of God.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

trout

[Jude3b]

How does your definition differ from my friend's, they seem to be identical, other than your verse references.

Where do the verses in the Bible mention anything about denominations being part of the church of God, the body of Christ? Relgious organizations are not part of the Body of Christ. Only people, people who love God and have received Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior are part of the only true church - the body of Christ. That's God's church, not Romes church or the Baptists church, or the Mormons church!

[Trout]

Where do the verses in the Bible mention anything about denominations being part of the church of God, the body of Christ? Relgious organizations are not part of the Body of Christ. Only people, people who love God and have received Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior are part of the only true church - the body of Christ. That's God's church, not Romes church or the Baptists church, or the Mormons church!

troutk13's friend:
The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches
My friend said that the church is made up of all those from various denominations, not various denominations. He was referring to the people in the denomination not the denominations themselves. Jude3b, he said the exact same thing as you did.

torut

[Jude3b]

My friend said that the church is made up of all those from various denominations, not various denominations. He was referring to the people in the denomination not the denominations themselves. Jude3b, he said the exact same thing as you did.

torut

The Bible does not say that the church is made up of all those from various denominations. That is not a Biblical definition of the church of God, the body of Christ. That is an example of someone who promotes division in the body of Christ into sects and denominations.

[Trout]

The Bible does not say that the church is made up of all those from various denominations. That is not a Biblical definition of the church of God, the body of Christ. That is an example of someone who promotes division in the body of Christ into sects and denominations.
Wrong again Jude3b,

Membership in the body of Christ crosses denominational boundaries, that's the point of my friends definition, his definition actually promotes unity.

Where do you attend church Jude3b?

[Jude3b]

Wrong again Jude3b,

Membership in the body of Christ crosses denominational boundaries, that's the point of my friends definition, his definition actually promotes unity.

Where do you attend church Jude3b?

Are you of Paul, are you of Cephas, are you a Baptist, a Roman Catholic, a Methodist? What are you?

Jesus gave us the standard and method of unity amongst Christians and it is contained in John chapter 17.

If you will read the chapter, you will notice that it does not include being divided into sects and denominations. God has a people and they are all one in Christ. Denominations hinder unity in the Body of Christ and if you are part of one, you also are causing division.

If you choose to be part of a denomination after reading and uderstanding the Will of God as revealed in the high priestly prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 17 - than you have made an "idol" out of your religion.

Based on your mystical definition and claiming that God supports denominationalism, it becomes obvious that you are either confused about this or that you do have your religion as your "idol!"

[Trout]

Jude3b:
You have given scripture references for the definition that you say Christians have of the church. In reading each of these verses - it is clear that your definition is very different from the definition you give to the church.

Where do you get "Mystical" from? Are you a Mystic?

Where is the Biblical support for all the different sects and denominations that make up your definition of the church?

What denomination are you a part of?

Jude3b:
Dear Troutk13: The verses you quoted on the church don't say the same as your definition of the church. Even a Mormon could come up with a closer definition of the church, from what you have written...


Trout:
Hello Jude3b,

Do you think that my friends definition of "church" is correct and that the statement simply isn't footnoted properly?

Or do you disagree with his definition altogether?

If you disagree altogether, can you provide a definition of the "church" as it applies currently to Christianity.

I also believe that my friend chose the word "mystical" meaning that there is a spiritual or unseen bond which binds together those belonging to the "church".

Jude3b, are you LDS?

Jude3b:
I disagree with the definition. It does not in any way match the scripture verses that were quoted. The church can be defined from Scripture and does not need some fanciful man made defintion about how "mystical" it is!

First, the church is the Body of Christ: "And hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph. 1:22, 23).

The body of which Christ is the head is the church that he built; yea, "the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts. 20:28).
This is the only church taught in the New Testament. We can find out exactly what constitutes this church by reading the Bible statements about what constitutes the body of Christ, which only is the church. "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: so we (true Bible Christians), being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Rom. 12:4, 5)

The universal body of true believers constitutes the church of God for which Christ died. You can not have salvation, can not be a member of Christ, without thereby being a member of the body of Christ; for "now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him" (I Cor. 12:18). Inversely, it is impossible to be a member of the body of Christ without being a member of Christ himself.

The Religionists on theology web are all arguing about their personal idol - their personal Religion, Denomination, sect. But Christianity is none of those. True Christianity is not a religion, not an idol. It is a relationship between the living God and His People, His body, the church of God that He bought and paid for. And I for one, am sure glad that He did! Amen.

troutk13's friend:
The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches

Trout:
How does your definition differ from my friend', they seem to be identical, other than your verse references.

Jude3b:
Where do the verses in the Bible mention anything about denominations being part of the church of God, the body of Christ? Relgious organizations are not part of the Body of Christ. Only people, people who love God and have received Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior are part of the only true church - the body of Christ. That's God's church, not Romes church or the Baptists church, or the Mormons church!

Trout:
My friend said that the church is made up of all those from various denominations, not various denominations. He was referring to the people in the denomination not the denominations themselves. Jude3b, he said the exact same thing as you did.

Jude3b:
The Bible does not say that the church is made up of all those from various denominations. That is not a Biblical definition of the church of God, the body of Christ. That is an example of someone who promotes division in the body of Christ into sects and denominations.

Trout:
Wrong again Jude3b,

Membership in the body of Christ crosses denominational boundaries, that's the point of my friends definition, his definition actually promotes unity.

Where do you attend church Jude3b?


Jude3b:
Are you of Paul, are you of Cephas, are you a Baptist, a Roman Catholic, a Methodist? What are you?

Jesus gave us the standard and method of unity amongst Christians and it is contained in John chapter 17.

If you will read the chapter, you will notice that it does not include being divided into sects and denominations. God has a people and they are all one in Christ. Denominations hinder unity in the Body of Christ and if you are part of one, you also are causing division.

If you choose to be part of a denomination after reading and uderstanding the Will of God as revealed in the high priestly prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 17 - than you have made an "idol" out of your religion.

Based on your mystical definition and claiming that God supports denominationalism, it becomes obvious that you are either confused about this or that you do have your religion as your "idol!"

The statement that my friend made in fact unifies beyond the boundaries of denominationalism, something which you are in fact doing the opposite, you are dividing the body of Christ into those who go to church and those who don't.

You remind me of the LDS, they claim to be the only true church, the only church with God's authority, without denomination or division, you either are a member of the LDS church or you aren't.

Jude3b is trying to divide the body of Christ into followers of denominations instead of followers of Christ, troutk13's friend is establishing the fact that there are members of the body of Christ within many denominations.

The word of God makes it clear that we shouldn't forsake the gathering together, so if you don't gather together, you aren't obeying God's wishes.
Answer my question Jude3b; where do you go to church?

[dizzle]

Jude you are making no sense and making an idol out of your "nondemonationalism"

[Jude3b]

Trout 13, you have asked me if I am LDS - No, never have been a member of that cult. I was a Roman Catholic until I became a Christian.

You stated that I am trying to divide the Body of Christ into denominations. You need to take back that false statement. I am the most anti-denominational person you'll ever meet on this theology web site. I truly believe that denominations cause division and that is what keeps us as the body of Christ from effecting the world for Christ in a more meaniful way.

I believe what the Bible states - cover to cover - Genesis to Revolutions, as they say. A light attempt at humor!

"We are members one of another" (Eph. 4:25) - that despite denominationalism! What denomination are you a part of? I am not part of any denomination. I worship with other Christians at a non-denominational church. I sometimes visit various types of so-called Bible believing churches when I travel - in order to fellowship with brethren, but I cannot bring myself to go against Jesus and his desires - by joining a man-made religion (denomination)

You see: "One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matt. 23:8).

We are reconciled "unto God in one body by the cross" (Eph. 2:16).

"And there shall be one fold (flock), and one shepherd" (John 10:16) - not multitudes of confused sects and denominations (Babylon = Confusion).

Jesus prayed: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.... that they all may be one; as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee, they they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT thou hast sent me.... I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one" (John 17:17-23).

The apostle Paul, writing to the church at Corinth, mentions the strife and division over preachers manifested among certain brethren there and attributes it to the fact that they were "yet carnal" (I Cor. 3:1-5).

Jesus had prayed for the sanctification of his disciples, that they might be made perfect in one, in order that the world might believe and His prayer was answered and reached in the apostolic church. They were not Methodists and Lutherans and Roman Catholics and Baptists, etc..., they were Christians.
"And the multitude of them that believe were of one heart and one soul.... and great grace was upon them all" (Acts 4:31-33). "And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women" (chap. 5:14).

Even the idea of denominations, sects and division among Christians was foreign to the pure apostolic church of God, the body of Christ. Paul says to the Roman brethren (and I believe this is for us today, also my friend), "Mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine (of unity) which ye have learned, and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).

There is a false idea of so-called unity made prominent throughout Christendom, which is simply an attempt to bring together the professed followers of Christ. They take the lowest common denominator and say - we can have fellowhip - so your a Presbyterian and I'm a Catholic and I'm a Methodist - can't we just all get along. We all say that we believe in Jesus.

The Devil believes in Jesus and he's not saved!

True unity cannot be effected by agreeing not to disagree - while we all have our own little pet doctrines and denominatios that we put ahead of the Word of God.

True unity can be effected only by meeting the Bible conditions for unity: 1) We must be "in Christ," 2) We must be kept in his name, 3) We must receive the Word of God and keep it, 4) We must be sanctified wholly. That is what Jesus taught in John 17.

Trout 13, this may be the first time you have ever heard anyone discuss the idea of true Biblical unity and what the Bible says on the subject. Thats ok. I get the sense that you are a Christian and that you are trusting Christ alone for your salvation and not your denomination. If that is true, you might prayerfully consider what I have written. Imagine if you will, what the world would be like if all true Bible Christians - claimed Christ first and found their unity in Him alone. How we could impact this lost world for Christ! Imagine if we all would claim to be Christians and nothing else and ourselves as members of the body of Christ and nothing else and we would all be one in Christ Jesus! That is what Jesus wants (John chapter 17: 17 - 23). Amen.

[Trout]

Jude3b:
You have given scripture references for the definition that you say Christians have of the church. In reading each of these verses - it is clear that your definition is very different from the definition you give to the church.

Where do you get "Mystical" from? Are you a Mystic?

Where is the Biblical support for all the different sects and denominations that make up your definition of the church?

What denomination are you a part of?

Jude3b:
Dear Troutk13: The verses you quoted on the church don't say the same as your definition of the church. Even a Mormon could come up with a closer definition of the church, from what you have written...


Trout:
Hello Jude3b,

Do you think that my friends definition of "church" is correct and that the statement simply isn't footnoted properly?

Or do you disagree with his definition altogether?

If you disagree altogether, can you provide a definition of the "church" as it applies currently to Christianity.

I also believe that my friend chose the word "mystical" meaning that there is a spiritual or unseen bond which binds together those belonging to the "church".

Jude3b, are you LDS?

Jude3b:
I disagree with the definition. It does not in any way match the scripture verses that were quoted. The church can be defined from Scripture and does not need some fanciful man made defintion about how "mystical" it is!

First, the church is the Body of Christ: "And hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph. 1:22, 23).

The body of which Christ is the head is the church that he built; yea, "the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts. 20:28).
This is the only church taught in the New Testament. We can find out exactly what constitutes this church by reading the Bible statements about what constitutes the body of Christ, which only is the church. "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: so we (true Bible Christians), being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Rom. 12:4, 5)

The universal body of true believers constitutes the church of God for which Christ died. You can not have salvation, can not be a member of Christ, without thereby being a member of the body of Christ; for "now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him" (I Cor. 12:18). Inversely, it is impossible to be a member of the body of Christ without being a member of Christ himself.

The Religionists on theology web are all arguing about their personal idol - their personal Religion, Denomination, sect. But Christianity is none of those. True Christianity is not a religion, not an idol. It is a relationship between the living God and His People, His body, the church of God that He bought and paid for. And I for one, am sure glad that He did! Amen.

troutk13's friend:
The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches

Trout:
How does your definition differ from my friend', they seem to be identical, other than your verse references.

Jude3b:
Where do the verses in the Bible mention anything about denominations being part of the church of God, the body of Christ? Relgious organizations are not part of the Body of Christ. Only people, people who love God and have received Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior are part of the only true church - the body of Christ. That's God's church, not Romes church or the Baptists church, or the Mormons church!

Trout:
My friend said that the church is made up of all those from various denominations, not various denominations. He was referring to the people in the denomination not the denominations themselves. Jude3b, he said the exact same thing as you did.

Jude3b:
The Bible does not say that the church is made up of all those from various denominations. That is not a Biblical definition of the church of God, the body of Christ. That is an example of someone who promotes division in the body of Christ into sects and denominations.

Trout:
Wrong again Jude3b,

Membership in the body of Christ crosses denominational boundaries, that's the point of my friends definition, his definition actually promotes unity.

Where do you attend church Jude3b?


Jude3b:
Are you of Paul, are you of Cephas, are you a Baptist, a Roman Catholic, a Methodist? What are you?

Jesus gave us the standard and method of unity amongst Christians and it is contained in John chapter 17.

If you will read the chapter, you will notice that it does not include being divided into sects and denominations. God has a people and they are all one in Christ. Denominations hinder unity in the Body of Christ and if you are part of one, you also are causing division.

If you choose to be part of a denomination after reading and uderstanding the Will of God as revealed in the high priestly prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 17 - than you have made an "idol" out of your religion.

Based on your mystical definition and claiming that God supports denominationalism, it becomes obvious that you are either confused about this or that you do have your religion as your "idol!"

The statement that my friend made in fact unifies beyond the boundaries of denominationalism, something which you are in fact doing the opposite, you are dividing the body of Christ into those who go to church and those who don't.

You remind me of the LDS, they claim to be the only true church, the only church with God's authority, without denomination or division, you either are a member of the LDS church or you aren't.

Jude3b is trying to divide the body of Christ into followers of denominations instead of followers of Christ, troutk13's friend is establishing the fact that there are members of the body of Christ within many denominations.

The word of God makes it clear that we shouldn't forsake the gathering together, so if you don't gather together, you aren't obeying God's wishes.
Answer my question Jude3b; where do you go to church?


Jude3b:
Trout 13, you have asked me if I am LDS - No, never have been a member of that cult. I was a Roman Catholic until I became a Christian.

Apparently you think there can be no Christians in either of those organizations, how unifying.


Jude3b
You stated that I am trying to divide the Body of Christ into denominations. You need to take back that false statement. I am the most anti-denominational person you'll ever meet on this theology web site. I truly believe that denominations cause division and that is what keeps us as the body of Christ from effecting the world for Christ in a more meaniful way.

What you have made clear is that all those belonging to a denomination other than your non-denomination are "idol worshippers", I think running around calling your brethren an "idol worshipper" is dividing the body of Christ and making it less effective.


I believe what the Bible states - cover to cover - Genesis to Revolutions, as they say. A light attempt at humor!

So do the denominations you are trying to set yourself above.


"We are members one of another" (Eph. 4:25) - that despite denominationalism! What denomination are you a part of? I am not part of any denomination. I worship with other Christians at a non-denominational church. I sometimes visit various types of so-called Bible believing churches when I travel - in order to fellowship with brethren, but I cannot bring myself to go against Jesus and his desires - by joining a man-made religion (denomination)

Right, so the statement my friend made about the body of Christ remains a sound definition, in fact making known the unity that exists beyond the boundaries of denominationalism. You on the other hand are raising your non-denominationalism above the unity that we share, and in fact saying that if you are a member of a denomination you in fact aren't in God's will, you are an "idol worshipper".



You see: "One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matt. 23:8).

We are reconciled "unto God in one body by the cross" (Eph. 2:16).

"And there shall be one fold (flock), and one shepherd" (John 10:16) - not multitudes of confused sects and denominations (Babylon = Confusion).

Jesus prayed: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.... that they all may be one; as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee, they they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT thou hast sent me.... I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one" (John 17:17-23).

Please cite references by varying denominational authorities saying that the denominations understand those verses differently than you do. I think you'll find that there is quite a bit of unity among the brethren on those.


The apostle Paul, writing to the church at Corinth, mentions the strife and division over preachers manifested among certain brethren there and attributes it to the fact that they were "yet carnal" (I Cor. 3:1-5).

Kind of like the division you are trying to cause between your non-denominationalism and all other groups of Christians?


Jesus had prayed for the sanctification of his disciples, that they might be made perfect in one, in order that the world might believe and His prayer was answered and reached in the apostolic church. They were not Methodists and Lutherans and Roman Catholics and Baptists, etc..., they were Christians.
"And the multitude of them that believe were of one heart and one soul.... and great grace was upon them all" (Acts 4:31-33). "And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women" (chap. 5:14).

That is exactly what my friends definition is making clear, that membership in the body of Christ is what makes us one.



Even the idea of denominations, sects and division among Christians was foreign to the pure apostolic church of God, the body of Christ. Paul says to the Roman brethren (and I believe this is for us today, also my friend), "Mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine (of unity) which ye have learned, and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).

When you add words into the scripture you need to be careful that you aren't adding your private interpretation into the text, "contrary to the doctrine which you have learned" is what the text says. Tell me Jude3b, within the denominations you have railed against, "Methodists and Lutherans and Baptists" please demonstrate how they aren't in harmony with the "doctrine which you have learned"?


There is a false idea of so-called unity made prominent throughout Christendom, which is simply an attempt to bring together the professed followers of Christ. They take the lowest common denominator and say - we can have fellowhip - so your a Presbyterian and I'm a Catholic and I'm a Methodist - can't we just all get along. We all say that we believe in Jesus.

But in fact you know that you must be Jude3b's brand of non-denominationalism to not be an "idol worshipper", how unifying.


The Devil believes in Jesus and he's not saved!

what's your point there, are you saying that the faith held by all those in the varying denominations is the equivalent to that held by Satan?


True unity cannot be effected by agreeing not to disagree - while we all have our own little pet doctrines and denominatios that we put ahead of the Word of God.

True unity can be effected only by meeting the Bible conditions for unity: 1) We must be "in Christ," 2) We must be kept in his name, 3) We must receive the Word of God and keep it, 4) We must be sanctified wholly. That is what Jesus taught in John 17.

Trout 13, this may be the first time you have ever heard anyone discuss the idea of true Biblical unity and what the Bible says on the subject. Thats ok. I get the sense that you are a Christian and that you are trusting Christ alone for your salvation and not your denomination. If that is true, you might prayerfully consider what I have written. Imagine if you will, what the world would be like if all true Bible Christians - claimed Christ first and found their unity in Him alone. How we could impact this lost world for Christ! Imagine if we all would claim to be Christians and nothing else and ourselves as members of the body of Christ and nothing else and we would all be one in Christ Jesus! That is what Jesus wants (John chapter 17: 17 - 23). Amen.

Jude3b, in your haste to distance yourself from Roman Catholicism, you are in fact isolating yourself in non-denominationalism, Christ wants us to be unified, not seperated by man made boundaries, that's why it's important to understand my friend's statement about the body of Christ, " The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches".

[Bill the Cat]

www.dictionary.com

de·nom·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-nm-nshn)
n.
A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: Cash registers have compartments for bills of different denominations. The stamps come in 25¢ and 45¢ denominations.

A name or designation, especially for a class or group.


So where does it mean division?

[John Powell]

JOHN MORMON:

PGP Joseph Smith History:
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. . .


JOHN MORMON:
Jesus, Himself says you're wrong.

TROUT:
Apparently Joseph didn't think too highly of the instructions he received:

But, Fayette Lapham said that about 1830 Smith's father told him that Joseph had joined the Baptist church in about 1824 (Historical Magazine, Vol. 8, No. 5, May 1870, pp. 305-306)

Emma Smith's cousins, Joseph and Heil Lewis, were members of the Methodist church which Joseph tried to join in Harmony, Pennsylvania. They said, "Joseph presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members" (The Amboy Journal, April 30, 1879).

So he became a member of the Baptist church, then tried to join the Methodist church after receiving first hand instructions, in no uncertain terms not to. Makes me think he made up the vision.


JOHN MORMON:
Perhaps Fayette Lapham and Emma's cousins were mistaken.

Some Jews claimed that the father of Jesus was a Roman soldier. Should we believe them?

JOHN MORMON:
Where does the Bible clearly indicate that God created more than just the Earth, Moon, Sun, and nearby stars?

Where does it clearly imply that He created all the GALAXIES and the UNIVERSE itself?

TROUT:
How about the Pearl of Great Price?

Moses 1:33 PoGP
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.



JOHN MORMON:
I asked in the Bible, Trout.

Perhaps you see that the Bible should have said more on this issue, huh? With just the Bible as their guide, people thought the only "Earth" God had created was the one we're standing on. To claim otherwise was heresy. The PGP clarifies that God created more worlds than just this one.

When God says "without number" to a man, how many does God mean?

When speaking to Abraham, He said that Abraham's descendants would be as numberless as the sands on the sea shore. That's a tremendously large number. More than trillions. However, He also used the comparison of the "stars in the heavens." Assuming God meant the visible stars to Abraham then that number would be something like 6000. The actual number of descendants of Abraham is probably less than a billion. Since there are hundreds of billions of stars in our Galaxy and perhaps a similar number or more of planets (mostly lifeless) then even if I were to concede "without number" means "billions" then that STILL would not necessarily imply God was the creator of this entire Galaxy, let alone the entire universe and whatever else there is. To satisfy His words, God might merely be creator of about 1% of our Milky Way Galaxy. That leaves room for a hundred of his siblings to be Gods in our Galaxy alone.

As I've shown, even accepting the PGP quote, this still does NOT necessarily imply that God created the Galaxy or the Universe.

JOHN MORMON:
Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one like He was one with the Father (John 17:11). Surely, Jesus was not hoping the disciples would become a trinity-sort of thing.

God said, "let US . . ." implying there was more than one God involved in creation.

Stephen saw God (the Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. That's two.

Acts 7 (KJV):
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


JOHN MORMON:
Joseph Smith claimed the same thing in his history. When Jesus was baptized, the Father was speaking from the clouds and the Holy Ghost was in the sign of the dove. That's three.

Perhaps Trinitarians choose to believe in a hard-to-comprehend God partly because they think that elevates God above us despicable humans. The actual God is not so hard to comprehend and not so much greater than we.

TROUT:
The BOM affirms what the Bible says in many places, that there is one God.

2 Nephi 31:21
"And now,behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."


Mormon 7:7
"..unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God....."


TROUT:
Joseph Smith goes against the very words in the BOM.


JOHN MORMON:
Where scriptures say "one God" to Mormons it means "one presidency."

POWELL:
Those words in the Book of Mormon may reflect a changing view of Joseph Smith, that at the time he composed the Book of Mormon he believed in the trinity. If so, that would imply that the modern version of the First Vision is a later creation. On the other hand, that wording may have been put there and left there to encourage Mormons to consider Biblical verses saying "one God" to mean "one Godhead" which to them means "one presidency of Gods." They can conclude that the Book of Mormon helps to explain what God really means when He says "one God."

JOHN MORMON:
When Joseph claimed that he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God (count them: two beings) was he claiming anything different from what Stephen claimed he saw (count them: two beings)?

JOHN MORMON:
Jesus proved that a man can become God. Therefore, it's possible for us to become Gods.

Jesus argued with his critics that if the O.T. claimed that they were Gods, then why was it so wrong for Him to claim that He was the Son of God?

John 10 (KJV):
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


JOHN MORMON:
We are commanded to be perfect like God is perfect.

Matt. 5: 48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


JOHN MORMON:
Why? Because it's possible for us to be like God.

TROUT:
Being "like God" and becoming God are quite different, we are like God in many ways being created in His image, but being God is reserved for God alone.


JOHN MORMON:
Well duh Trout, I'm not saying that we become the entity who we call our Heavenly Father, but we become of a sufficiently similar nature doing the same sorts of things. We become exalted beings, parents to spirit children, creators of planets. We will do the kinds of things that our Heavenly Father does so we will justifiably be called Gods in our own right.

TROUT:
Isa 43:10
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.



JOHN MORMON:
No other Godhead FOR THIS PLANET. God was not saying or clearly implying He was the only God for the entire universe and all other possible realms of existence. Did any prophet mention that the alleged Gods of people on other planets were also false Gods like the alleged Gods of people on our planet or did they restrict themselves to issues pertaining to THIS PLANET?

JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, Christians believe males have power that God does not because we can lie and we can have a wife. Since the Gods created Adam and Eve in their image, it should not surprise us that God is male and God's wife is female.

The idea of God being our Father makes a lot more sense if God is the father of our spirits rather than just the creator of our bodies.

TROUT:
And where in the Bible or the BOM is this concept expressed?


JOHN MORMON:
The issue is a bit complicated because, although we are spirit children of Heavenly Father, we become adopted children of Jesus (and even Heavenly Father) through obedience.

Heb. 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


JOHN MORMON:
God is the Father of our spirits like our male parent is the father of our flesh.

JOHN MORMON:
Rev 1 (KJV):
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


JOHN MORMON:
It says Jesus made us kings and priests unto God (the father of Jesus ) AND HIS FATHER (i.e., the father of the father of Jesus). There you go.

TROUT:
Joseph Smith re-translated that particular passage as follows:

JST REV 1:6
And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.


TROUT:
Joseph's version is different than the one you quoted, and it takes away the point which you tried to make.


JOHN MORMON:
I guess you're right. Maybe Joseph originally thought that Rev 1:6 was implying that Heavenly Father had a father, but later concluded that John probably didn't mean to say that, but it's still true.

Anyway, Trout, who was the father of Jesus? Heavenly Father. A God can father another God. Who was the father of Heavenly Father? Heavenly Grandfather, I suppose we could say.

You won't accept this because the trinity screws it up.

JOHN MORMON:
Gen 1 speaks of THIS EARTH, the Solar System, and the nearby stars. It says NOTHING about the universe beyond that. Deut 4:39 is only speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby stars and perhaps wherever God dwells. Likewise Isa 40:12-20. If Isaiah had meant to say that God created the Milky Way Galaxy and the superclusters of galaxies, why didn't he say so instead of focusing on merely our planet and what we can see in the sky?

Isa 43:10, 44:6-8 may only be saying that there is no other Godhead FOR THIS EARTH besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Isa 44:24 goes back again to speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby regions. God did NOT create everything since God did not create Himself. You'll probably say "What God meant was that He made everything in the universe." Well, gee, it doesn't say or clearly imply that. On the contrary, it implies that God made everything related to THIS EARTH and the nearby regions.

. . .

Now, you're saying that Jesus created everything THAT WAS CREATED which leaves open the opportunity to claim that God was not created. Well, all it means is that Jesus, under the direction of the Father, created everything physical related TO THIS EARTH.

TROUT:
If all things were created by Christ, (John chapter 1) that leaves a very short list of things that exist that He didn't create.


JOHN MORMON:
Technically it leaves NOTHING. It means Christ created Himself and His Father since those are "things." So, clearly it does NOT mean the technical "all things." It means less than that. It means, I think, that Christ created all things pertaining TO THIS EARTH.

TROUT:
1. God

And let's not forget what the POGP has to say:

Moses 1:33 PoGP
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.



JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, that means more than a few thousand worlds. It does NOT necessarily mean the entire Galaxy or all the universe or all planes of existence.

JOHN MORMON:
Jesus taught us how to pray and it wasn't "Jesus, our Savior, . . ." but rather it was "Our Father who art in heaven, . . ."

TROUT:
Good point.


JOHN MORMON:
Trinitarians should wonder why it matters since Jesus and the Father are the same God. Why should we pray to the Father person, but not the Son person, is a question young trinitarians probably ask.

POWELL:
Like most such questions, the answer is probably "Because you were told to."

JOHN MORMON:
That sounds contradictory. Does a Christian have to obey the commandments of God to be saved? Let me remind them that "to believe" is one of the commandments. The answer is YES. What they don't seem to realize is that God on His own initiative, without compulsion, CHOSE to provide us a way to be saved. Without His plan our efforts would be to naught. However, now that the plan is in place and Jesus did His part, it's up to us to obey the commandments.

It's like the parents who provide an opportunity for their children to play sports, learn music, get a car, go to college, get married, etc. It's then up to the children to take advantage of those opportunities by following whatever stipulations the parents made.

TROUT:
Good works are the natural outworking of a saving faith, that faith however is the gift of God.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


trout


JOHN MORMON:
If a man has faith, Trout, but is unrighteous shall he inherit the kingdom of God? What if he has faith, but is a fornicator or an idolater or an adulterer or effeminate or abuser of himself with other men or a thief or covetous or drunkard or reviler or extorioner, shall he inherit the kingdom of God? Apparently not. Some of those may be mistranslations of what Paul meant, but the basic point remains.

1 Cor 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


JOHN MORMON:
CLEARLY, believing alone is NOT ENOUGH. One must be OBEDIENT to God's commandments. If God didn't require this of us then why did He give commandments to us at all?

Besides, Trout, "thou shalt believe in the Lord your God" is a commandment.

John Powell

[John Powell]

BILL THE CAT:
www.dictionary.com

de·nom·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-nm-nshn)
n.
A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: Cash registers have compartments for bills of different denominations. The stamps come in 25¢ and 45¢ denominations.

A name or designation, especially for a class or group.

So where does it mean division?


JOHN MORMON:
If EACH denomination has its OWN single administrative and legal hierarchy SEPARATE from other denominations then how can they ALL have the SAME adminstrative and legal hierarchy as it was in the early church with Peter, James, and John as God's supreme representatives on Earth?

Both Jude3b and you guys are wrong. Christ had a church organization, but only one. There were occasional doctrinal disputes, but none of those who separated from the church adminstered by the Apostles in order that they might set up their own separate administrative and legal hierarchy were considered part of the body of Christ.

To satisfy the Biblical standard, all the Christian denominations should accept a single supreme EARTHLY authority as God's representatives on Earth. I suggest the Mormon First Presidency, but you guys won't go along with that.

To cast oneself out of the organized denominations and try to be a church to oneself without direct direction from God as Jude3b effectively is doing is contrary to the will of God, IMO.

John Powell

[Trout]

JOHN MORMON:

Scripture Verse: PGP Joseph Smith History:
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. . .


JOHN MORMON:
Jesus, Himself says you're wrong.

TROUT:
Apparently Joseph didn't think too highly of the instructions he received:

But, Fayette Lapham said that about 1830 Smith's father told him that Joseph had joined the Baptist church in about 1824 (Historical Magazine, Vol. 8, No. 5, May 1870, pp. 305-306)

Emma Smith's cousins, Joseph and Heil Lewis, were members of the Methodist church which Joseph tried to join in Harmony, Pennsylvania. They said, "Joseph presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members" (The Amboy Journal, April 30, 1879).

So he became a member of the Baptist church, then tried to join the Methodist church after receiving first hand instructions, in no uncertain terms not to. Makes me think he made up the vision.

JOHN MORMON:
Perhaps Fayette Lapham and Emma's cousins were mistaken.

Some Jews claimed that the father of Jesus was a Roman soldier. Should we believe them?
I would tend to think that Joseph was mistaken, after all the version of the first vision that antedates the one you quoted describes a different set of events.

I don't see the error in my friends statement:
"The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches"

I see controversy in Joseph's proclamation denouncing all Christianity an abomination.



JOHN MORMON:
Where does the Bible clearly indicate that God created more than just the Earth, Moon, Sun, and nearby stars?

Where does it clearly imply that He created all the GALAXIES and the UNIVERSE itself?

TROUT:
How about the Pearl of Great Price?

Scripture Verse: Moses 1:33 PoGP
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.



JOHN MORMON:
I asked in the Bible, Trout.

Perhaps you see that the Bible should have said more on this issue, huh? With just the Bible as their guide, people thought the only "Earth" God had created was the one we're standing on. To claim otherwise was heresy. The PGP clarifies that God created more worlds than just this one.

When God says "without number" to a man, how many does God mean?

When speaking to Abraham, He said that Abraham's descendants would be as numberless as the sands on the sea shore. That's a tremendously large number. More than trillions. However, He also used the comparison of the "stars in the heavens." Assuming God meant the visible stars to Abraham then that number would be something like 6000. The actual number of descendants of Abraham is probably less than a billion. Since there are hundreds of billions of stars in our Galaxy and perhaps a similar number or more of planets (mostly lifeless) then even if I were to concede "without number" means "billions" then that STILL would not necessarily imply God was the creator of this entire Galaxy, let alone the entire universe and whatever else there is. To satisfy His words, God might merely be creator of about 1% of our Milky Way Galaxy. That leaves room for a hundred of his siblings to be Gods in our Galaxy alone.

As I've shown, even accepting the PGP quote, this still does NOT necessarily imply that God created the Galaxy or the Universe.
OK, how about these:

Isaiah 44:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+44:24&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;



John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.



1 Corinthians 11:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+11:12&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.



Ephesians 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EPH+3:9&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;



Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.





1 Timothy 6:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+6:13&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,





Hebrews 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+2:10&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.



Hebrews 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+3:4&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.



Revelation 4:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+4:11&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one like He was one with the Father (John 17:11). Surely, Jesus was not hoping the disciples would become a trinity-sort of thing.

God said, "let US . . ." implying there was more than one God involved in creation.

Stephen saw God (the Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. That's two.

Scripture Verse: Acts 7 (KJV):
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


JOHN MORMON:
Joseph Smith claimed the same thing in his history. When Jesus was baptized, the Father was speaking from the clouds and the Holy Ghost was in the sign of the dove. That's three.

Perhaps Trinitarians choose to believe in a hard-to-comprehend God partly because they think that elevates God above us despicable humans. The actual God is not so hard to comprehend and not so much greater than we.

TROUT:
The BOM affirms what the Bible says in many places, that there is one God.

Scripture Verse: 2 Nephi 31:21
"And now,behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."


Scripture Verse: Mormon 7:7
"..unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God....."


TROUT:
Joseph Smith goes against the very words in the BOM.


JOHN MORMON:
Where scriptures say "one God" to Mormons it means "one presidency."

POWELL:
Those words in the Book of Mormon may reflect a changing view of Joseph Smith, that at the time he composed the Book of Mormon he believed in the trinity. If so, that would imply that the modern version of the First Vision is a later creation. On the other hand, that wording may have been put there and left there to encourage Mormons to consider Biblical verses saying "one God" to mean "one Godhead" which to them means "one presidency of Gods." They can conclude that the Book of Mormon helps to explain what God really means when He says "one God."

JOHN MORMON:
When Joseph claimed that he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God (count them: two beings) was he claiming anything different from what Stephen claimed he saw (count them: two beings)?
Where the scriptures reveal one God, Christians believe that to be the Trinity.



JOHN MORMON:
Jesus proved that a man can become God. Therefore, it's possible for us to become Gods.

Jesus argued with his critics that if the O.T. claimed that they were Gods, then why was it so wrong for Him to claim that He was the Son of God?

Scripture Verse: John 10 (KJV):
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


JOHN MORMON:
We are commanded to be perfect like God is perfect.

Scripture Verse: Matt. 5: 48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


JOHN MORMON:
Why? Because it's possible for us to be like God.

TROUT:
Being "like God" and becoming God are quite different, we are like God in many ways being created in His image, but being God is reserved for God alone.

JOHN MORMON:
Well duh Trout, I'm not saying that we become the entity who we call our Heavenly Father, but we become of a sufficiently similar nature doing the same sorts of things. We become exalted beings, parents to spirit children, creators of planets. We will do the kinds of things that our Heavenly Father does so we will justifiably be called Gods in our own right.
Because something is "hard to comprehend" doesn't mean it's wrong. The Trinity solves problems, it doesnt create problems.




Isa 43:10
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.



JOHN MORMON:
No other Godhead FOR THIS PLANET. God was not saying or clearly implying He was the only God for the entire universe and all other possible realms of existence. Did any prophet mention that the alleged Gods of people on other planets were also false Gods like the alleged Gods of people on our planet or did they restrict themselves to issues pertaining to THIS PLANET?
Trinitarian thinking isn't in conflict with the passage in Isaiah. God revealed Himself as unique, none before Him and none after Him. LDS thinking must take this verse to mean something else if their doctrine of deification is to stand.




JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, Christians believe males have power that God does not because we can lie and we can have a wife. Since the Gods created Adam and Eve in their image, it should not surprise us that God is male and God's wife is female.

The idea of God being our Father makes a lot more sense if God is the father of our spirits rather than just the creator of our bodies.

TROUT:
And where in the Bible or the BOM is this concept expressed?


JOHN MORMON:
The issue is a bit complicated because, although we are spirit children of Heavenly Father, we become adopted children of Jesus (and even Heavenly Father) through obedience.

Heb. 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


JOHN MORMON:
God is the Father of our spirits like our male parent is the father of our flesh.
So the concept of a heavenly mother isn't expressed in scripture? And why is it impossible to think of God creating both male and female, body, soul and spirit apart from a heavenly mother?




JOHN MORMON:
Scripture Verse: Rev 1 (KJV):
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


JOHN MORMON:
It says Jesus made us kings and priests unto God (the father of Jesus ) AND HIS FATHER (i.e., the father of the father of Jesus). There you go.

TROUT:
Joseph Smith re-translated that particular passage as follows:

Scripture Verse: JST REV 1:6
And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.


TROUT:
Joseph's version is different than the one you quoted, and it takes away the point which you tried to make.



JOHN MORMON:
I guess you're right. Maybe Joseph originally thought that Rev 1:6 was implying that Heavenly Father had a father, but later concluded that John probably didn't mean to say that, but it's still true.

Anyway, Trout, who was the father of Jesus? Heavenly Father. A God can father another God. Who was the father of Heavenly Father? Heavenly Grandfather, I suppose we could say.

You won't accept this because the trinity screws it up.
Speaking of the incarnation of Christ, God the Father is the Father of the earthly Christ, but Christ the second person of the trinity alwats existed, uncreated. The scripture says, "unto you a child is born, unto you a Son is given" the Son wasn't born, the Son always existed.





JOHN MORMON:
Gen 1 speaks of THIS EARTH, the Solar System, and the nearby stars. It says NOTHING about the universe beyond that. Deut 4:39 is only speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby stars and perhaps wherever God dwells. Likewise Isa 40:12-20. If Isaiah had meant to say that God created the Milky Way Galaxy and the superclusters of galaxies, why didn't he say so instead of focusing on merely our planet and what we can see in the sky?

Isa 43:10, 44:6-8 may only be saying that there is no other Godhead FOR THIS EARTH besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Isa 44:24 goes back again to speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby regions. God did NOT create everything since God did not create Himself. You'll probably say "What God meant was that He made everything in the universe." Well, gee, it doesn't say or clearly imply that. On the contrary, it implies that God made everything related to THIS EARTH and the nearby regions.

. . .

Now, you're saying that Jesus created everything THAT WAS CREATED which leaves open the opportunity to claim that God was not created. Well, all it means is that Jesus, under the direction of the Father, created everything physical related TO THIS EARTH.

TROUT:
If all things were created by Christ, (John chapter 1) that leaves a very short list of things that exist that He didn't create.

JOHN MORMON:
Technically it leaves NOTHING. It means Christ created Himself and His Father since those are "things." So, clearly it does NOT mean the technical "all things." It means less than that. It means, I think, that Christ created all things pertaining TO THIS EARTH.
Since God is self-existent and un-created, it must mean all things that were created, were created by Christ.





TROUT:
1. God

And let's not forget what the POGP has to say:

Scripture Verse: Moses 1:33 PoGP
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.


JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, that means more than a few thousand worlds. It does NOT necessarily mean the entire Galaxy or all the universe or all planes of existence.
Or it could mean all created galaxies and planes of existence.




JOHN MORMON:
That sounds contradictory. Does a Christian have to obey the commandments of God to be saved? Let me remind them that "to believe" is one of the commandments. The answer is YES. What they don't seem to realize is that God on His own initiative, without compulsion, CHOSE to provide us a way to be saved. Without His plan our efforts would be to naught. However, now that the plan is in place and Jesus did His part, it's up to us to obey the commandments.

It's like the parents who provide an opportunity for their children to play sports, learn music, get a car, go to college, get married, etc. It's then up to the children to take advantage of those opportunities by following whatever stipulations the parents made.

TROUT:
Good works are the natural outworking of a saving faith, that faith however is the gift of God.

Scripture Verse: Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.





JOHN MORMON:
If a man has faith, Trout, but is unrighteous shall he inherit the kingdom of God? What if he has faith, but is a fornicator or an idolater or an adulterer or effeminate or abuser of himself with other men or a thief or covetous or drunkard or reviler or extorioner, shall he inherit the kingdom of God? Apparently not. Some of those may be mistranslations of what Paul meant, but the basic point remains.

1 Cor 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


JOHN MORMON:
CLEARLY, believing alone is NOT ENOUGH. One must be OBEDIENT to God's commandments. If God didn't require this of us then why did He give commandments to us at all?

Besides, Trout, "thou shalt believe in the Lord your God" is a commandment.

John Powell
Good deeds are the natural outworking of a saving faith, saving faith isn't the result of good works. Ephesians says that even faith is a gift from God, completely apart from good works.

Trout

[Jude3b]

So Trout, you are Roman Catholic aren't you?

[Trout]

So Trout, you are Roman Catholic aren't you?
There are members of the body of Christ who are Roman Catholic, I however am not one of them.

[John Powell]

JOHN MORMON:

PGP Joseph Smith History:
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. . .


JOHN MORMON:
Jesus, Himself says you're wrong.

TROUT:
Apparently Joseph didn't think too highly of the instructions he received:

But, Fayette Lapham said that about 1830 Smith's father told him that Joseph had joined the Baptist church in about 1824 (Historical Magazine, Vol. 8, No. 5, May 1870, pp. 305-306)

Emma Smith's cousins, Joseph and Heil Lewis, were members of the Methodist church which Joseph tried to join in Harmony, Pennsylvania. They said, "Joseph presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members" (The Amboy Journal, April 30, 1879).

So he became a member of the Baptist church, then tried to join the Methodist church after receiving first hand instructions, in no uncertain terms not to. Makes me think he made up the vision.

JOHN MORMON:
Perhaps Fayette Lapham and Emma's cousins were mistaken.

Some Jews claimed that the father of Jesus was a Roman soldier. Should we believe them?

TROUT:
I would tend to think that Joseph was mistaken, after all the version of the first vision that antedates the one you quoted describes a different set of events.


JOHN MORMON:
How so?

TROUT:
I don't see the error in my friends statement:
"The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches"

I see controversy in Joseph's proclamation denouncing all Christianity an abomination.


JOHN MORMON:
Then perhaps you see the Bible's claim that Jesus is the only way to salvation as creating controversy by denouncing any other method. Wouldn't it tend to produce religious unity between Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc., all children of God, if Christians were to drop that?

JOHN MORMON:
Where does the Bible clearly indicate that God created more than just the Earth, Moon, Sun, and nearby stars?

Where does it clearly imply that He created all the GALAXIES and the UNIVERSE itself?

TROUT:
How about the Pearl of Great Price?

Moses 1:33 PoGP
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.


JOHN MORMON:
I asked in the Bible, Trout.

Perhaps you see that the Bible should have said more on this issue, huh? With just the Bible as their guide, people thought the only "Earth" God had created was the one we're standing on. To claim otherwise was heresy. The PGP clarifies that God created more worlds than just this one.

When God says "without number" to a man, how many does God mean?

When speaking to Abraham, He said that Abraham's descendants would be as numberless as the sands on the sea shore. That's a tremendously large number. More than trillions. However, He also used the comparison of the "stars in the heavens." Assuming God meant the visible stars to Abraham then that number would be something like 6000. The actual number of descendants of Abraham is probably less than a billion. Since there are hundreds of billions of stars in our Galaxy and perhaps a similar number or more of planets (mostly lifeless) then even if I were to concede "without number" means "billions" then that STILL would not necessarily imply God was the creator of this entire Galaxy, let alone the entire universe and whatever else there is. To satisfy His words, God might merely be creator of about 1% of our Milky Way Galaxy. That leaves room for a hundred of his siblings to be Gods in our Galaxy alone.

As I've shown, even accepting the PGP quote, this still does NOT necessarily imply that God created the Galaxy or the Universe.

TROUT:
OK, how about these:

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;



POWELL:
Do you see anything that clearly implies that more than the Earth and the heavens that the prophet can see is being referred to? Is there anything there about other Earths or other galaxies?

TROUT:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.



JOHN MORMON:
All things related to this Earth.

TROUT:

1 Corinthians 11:12
For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.



POWELL:
That's exaggerating since evil things presumably don't come from God. This applies to many of the other references below.

TROUT:

Ephesians 3:9
and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;



JOHN MORMON:
All things related to this Earth. He didn't create the Father.

TROUT:

Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.



JOHN MORMON:
This one is more interesting because it speaks of thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Perhaps it means He created all galaxies and other planes of existence, but it could easily merely mean all things pertaining to this Earth and the nearby space as well as the thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers related to spirits associated with this Earth such as angels and demons.

TROUT:

1 Timothy 6:13
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,



JOHN MORMON:
Life to all things on this Earth.

TROUT:

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.



JOHN MORMON:
All things related to this Earth.

TROUT:

Hebrews 3:4
For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.



JOHN MORMON:
All things related to this Earth.

TROUT:

Revelation 4:11
"You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."



JOHN MORMON:
All things related to this Earth.

If you had asked these writers to identify some of these "all things" that God/Christ created would the list contain "other Earths" and "other galaxies" or would it likely be restricted to things like "trees, mountains, stars (visible), animals, plants, heaven, hell, etc."?

JOHN MORMON:
Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one like He was one with the Father (John 17:11). Surely, Jesus was not hoping the disciples would become a trinity-sort of thing.

God said, "let US . . ." implying there was more than one God involved in creation.

Stephen saw God (the Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. That's two.

Acts 7 (KJV):
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


JOHN MORMON:
Joseph Smith claimed the same thing in his history. When Jesus was baptized, the Father was speaking from the clouds and the Holy Ghost was in the sign of the dove. That's three.

Perhaps Trinitarians choose to believe in a hard-to-comprehend God partly because they think that elevates God above us despicable humans. The actual God is not so hard to comprehend and not so much greater than we.

TROUT:
The BOM affirms what the Bible says in many places, that there is one God.

2 Nephi 31:21
"And now,behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."


Mormon 7:7
"..unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God....."


TROUT:
Joseph Smith goes against the very words in the BOM.

JOHN MORMON:
Where scriptures say "one God" to Mormons it means "one presidency."

POWELL:
Those words in the Book of Mormon may reflect a changing view of Joseph Smith, that at the time he composed the Book of Mormon he believed in the trinity. If so, that would imply that the modern version of the First Vision is a later creation. On the other hand, that wording may have been put there and left there to encourage Mormons to consider Biblical verses saying "one God" to mean "one Godhead" which to them means "one presidency of Gods." They can conclude that the Book of Mormon helps to explain what God really means when He says "one God."

JOHN MORMON:
When Joseph claimed that he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God (count them: two beings) was he claiming anything different from what Stephen claimed he saw (count them: two beings)?

TROUT:
Where the scriptures reveal one God, Christians believe that to be the Trinity.


JOHN MORMON:
Then why did Stephen see the "trinitarian" God with Jesus on the right hand of the "trinitarian" God?

JOHN MORMON:
Jesus proved that a man can become God. Therefore, it's possible for us to become Gods.

Jesus argued with his critics that if the O.T. claimed that they were Gods, then why was it so wrong for Him to claim that He was the Son of God?

John 10 (KJV):
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


JOHN MORMON:
We are commanded to be perfect like God is perfect.

Matt. 5: 48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


JOHN MORMON:
Why? Because it's possible for us to be like God.

TROUT:
Being "like God" and becoming God are quite different, we are like God in many ways being created in His image, but being God is reserved for God alone.

JOHN MORMON:
Well duh Trout, I'm not saying that we become the entity who we call our Heavenly Father, but we become of a sufficiently similar nature doing the same sorts of things. We become exalted beings, parents to spirit children, creators of planets. We will do the kinds of things that our Heavenly Father does so we will justifiably be called Gods in our own right.

TROUT:
Because something is "hard to comprehend" doesn't mean it's wrong.


JOHN MORMON:
True, but Mormons believe the Gospel is "plain and precious" rather than "difficult to understand."

TROUT:
The Trinity solves problems, it doesnt create problems.


JOHN MORMON:
It may solve some problems, but creates others. Mormons think that having separate Gods solves more problems than it causes.

TROUT:

Isa 43:10
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.


JOHN MORMON:
No other Godhead FOR THIS PLANET. God was not saying or clearly implying He was the only God for the entire universe and all other possible realms of existence. Did any prophet mention that the alleged Gods of people on other planets were also false Gods like the alleged Gods of people on our planet or did they restrict themselves to issues pertaining to THIS PLANET?

TROUT:
Trinitarian thinking isn't in conflict with the passage in Isaiah. God revealed Himself as unique, none before Him and none after Him. LDS thinking must take this verse to mean something else if their doctrine of deification is to stand.


JOHN MORMON:
Where is there any discussion in the OT about God being 3 persons?

JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, Christians believe males have power that God does not because we can lie and we can have a wife. Since the Gods created Adam and Eve in their image, it should not surprise us that God is male and God's wife is female.

The idea of God being our Father makes a lot more sense if God is the father of our spirits rather than just the creator of our bodies.

TROUT:
And where in the Bible or the BOM is this concept expressed?

JOHN MORMON:
The issue is a bit complicated because, although we are spirit children of Heavenly Father, we become adopted children of Jesus (and even Heavenly Father) through obedience.

Heb. 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


JOHN MORMON:
God is the Father of our spirits like our male parent is the father of our flesh.

TROUT:
So the concept of a heavenly mother isn't expressed in scripture?


JOHN MORMON:
That's a mystery in Mormonism.

My Sunday School teachers taught me as a child that God loved Heavenly Mother so much that He didn't want to give an opportunity to people on Earth to blaspheme Her name like they did His. I now have doubts about this explanation.

Others have suggested there was mention of Mother in the Bible originally, but evil scribes deleted it.

My brother believed that it was because God was a polygamist, and so if God made a big deal about there being Mothers in Heaven then people on Earth would have controversies over whose mother was the best. This one made more sense to me.

However, the explanation that made the most sense to me that I came up with is that the principal job of Mother(s) in heaven was when we were spiritual children in the pre-existence whereas the job of Father is when we're more adult.

TROUT:
And why is it impossible to think of God creating both male and female, body, soul and spirit apart from a heavenly mother?


JOHN MORMON:
These are mysteries in Mormonism.

I suppose Father could create the physical bodies, but our sexual identity was determined when our intelligences were born as spirits. I suppose it's possible for Father to do that too, but I suspect it's more efficient to have a "Mother" God involved.

JOHN MORMON:

Rev 1 (KJV):
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


JOHN MORMON:
It says Jesus made us kings and priests unto God (the father of Jesus ) AND HIS FATHER (i.e., the father of the father of Jesus). There you go.

TROUT:
Joseph Smith re-translated that particular passage as follows:

JST REV 1:6
And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.


TROUT:
Joseph's version is different than the one you quoted, and it takes away the point which you tried to make.

JOHN MORMON:
I guess you're right. Maybe Joseph originally thought that Rev 1:6 was implying that Heavenly Father had a father, but later concluded that John probably didn't mean to say that, but it's still true.

Anyway, Trout, who was the father of Jesus? Heavenly Father. A God can father another God. Who was the father of Heavenly Father? Heavenly Grandfather, I suppose we could say.

You won't accept this because the trinity screws it up.

TROUT:
Speaking of the incarnation of Christ, God the Father is the Father of the earthly Christ, but Christ the second person of the trinity alwats existed, uncreated. The scripture says, "unto you a child is born, unto you a Son is given" the Son wasn't born, the Son always existed.


JOHN MORMON:
According to Mormonism, we all "always" existed as something, as intelligences. Jesus is the Firstborn spirit child of Heavenly Father. The rest, such as Lucifer, his angels, and ourselves, came later.

JOHN MORMON:
Gen 1 speaks of THIS EARTH, the Solar System, and the nearby stars. It says NOTHING about the universe beyond that. Deut 4:39 is only speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby stars and perhaps wherever God dwells. Likewise Isa 40:12-20. If Isaiah had meant to say that God created the Milky Way Galaxy and the superclusters of galaxies, why didn't he say so instead of focusing on merely our planet and what we can see in the sky?

Isa 43:10, 44:6-8 may only be saying that there is no other Godhead FOR THIS EARTH besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Isa 44:24 goes back again to speaking of THIS EARTH and the nearby regions. God did NOT create everything since God did not create Himself. You'll probably say "What God meant was that He made everything in the universe." Well, gee, it doesn't say or clearly imply that. On the contrary, it implies that God made everything related to THIS EARTH and the nearby regions.

. . .

Now, you're saying that Jesus created everything THAT WAS CREATED which leaves open the opportunity to claim that God was not created. Well, all it means is that Jesus, under the direction of the Father, created everything physical related TO THIS EARTH.

TROUT:
If all things were created by Christ, (John chapter 1) that leaves a very short list of things that exist that He didn't create.

JOHN MORMON:
Technically it leaves NOTHING. It means Christ created Himself and His Father since those are "things." So, clearly it does NOT mean the technical "all things." It means less than that. It means, I think, that Christ created all things pertaining TO THIS EARTH.

TROUT:
Since God is self-existent and un-created, it must mean all things that were created, were created by Christ.


JOHN MORMON:
Perhaps, but according to Mormonism, Heavenly Father was not always God. He was originally an intelligence who became a spirit. I guess this would either be by virtue of His Father or He was the first of all intelligences to become a spirit.

These are more mysteries that aren't essential to know in this life in order to warrant exaltation.

TROUT:
1. God

And let's not forget what the POGP has to say:

Moses 1:33 PoGP
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.


JOHN MORMON:
Apparently, that means more than a few thousand worlds. It does NOT necessarily mean the entire Galaxy or all the universe or all planes of existence.

TROUT:
Or it could mean all created galaxies and planes of existence.


JOHN MORMON:
Yes, it could mean that, but if it did I would have expected it to be more clear. What I read gives me the impression it only means the Earth and the nearby part of our Milky Way Galaxy.

JOHN MORMON:
That sounds contradictory. Does a Christian have to obey the commandments of God to be saved? Let me remind them that "to believe" is one of the commandments. The answer is YES. What they don't seem to realize is that God on His own initiative, without compulsion, CHOSE to provide us a way to be saved. Without His plan our efforts would be to naught. However, now that the plan is in place and Jesus did His part, it's up to us to obey the commandments.

It's like the parents who provide an opportunity for their children to play sports, learn music, get a car, go to college, get married, etc. It's then up to the children to take advantage of those opportunities by following whatever stipulations the parents made.

TROUT:
Good works are the natural outworking of a saving faith, that faith however is the gift of God.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.



JOHN MORMON:
God provided the plan and the Earth without us deserving it. That's His grace. Jesus provided the atonement without us deserving it. That's His grace. They've done their part. Now, it's up to us to do our part to warrant heaven.

JOHN MORMON:
If a man has faith, Trout, but is unrighteous shall he inherit the kingdom of God? What if he has faith, but is a fornicator or an idolater or an adulterer or effeminate or abuser of himself with other men or a thief or covetous or drunkard or reviler or extorioner, shall he inherit the kingdom of God? Apparently not. Some of those may be mistranslations of what Paul meant, but the basic point remains.

1 Cor 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


JOHN MORMON:
CLEARLY, believing alone is NOT ENOUGH. One must be OBEDIENT to God's commandments. If God didn't require this of us then why did He give commandments to us at all?

Besides, Trout, "thou shalt believe in the Lord your God" is a commandment.

TROUT:
Good deeds are the natural outworking of a saving faith, saving faith isn't the result of good works. Ephesians says that even faith is a gift from God, completely apart from good works.


JOHN MORMON:
Yes, because it's partly based on the inspiration of the Holy Ghost which is an undeserved gift from God.

However, faith without works is dead. If we have faith, but fail to obey the other commandments then we will not be saved in the Kingdom of Heaven.

John Powell

[Jude3b]

There are members of the body of Christ who are Roman Catholic, I however am not one of them.

Trout, you asked me if I was a Mormon and I answered you and told you, no, I am a Christian ever since I was saved and left Romanism. I attend a non-denominational Christian church.

What denomination or religion are you?

[Trout]

Trout, you asked me if I was a Mormon and I answered you and told you, no, I am a Christian ever since I was saved and left Romanism. I attend a non-denominational Christian church.

What denomination or religion are you?
Jude3b,

I'm a member in good standing of the First Naze-Method, Bapti-Costal, Seventh-Day-Orthodox, Luther-Yterian, Non-Denominational, Church of Our Lady of the Mind-Scientist.

(When you want to have a serious dialogue about this subject, I'm up for it, start by addressing the questions posed to you in prior posts.)

trout

[Jude3b]

Jude3b,

I'm a member in good standing of the First Naze-Method, Bapti-Costal, Seventh-Day-Orthodox, Luther-Yterian, Non-Denominational, Church of Our Lady of the Mind-Scientist.

(When you want to have a serious dialogue about this subject, I'm up for it, start by addressing the questions posed to you in prior posts.)

trout

What question of yours have I not answered and why are you afraid to reveal your denominational affiliation? You asked me and I answered you.

[Trout]

Let me re-post for you our prior conversation:


Jude3b:
You have given scripture references for the definition that you say Christians have of the church. In reading each of these verses - it is clear that your definition is very different from the definition you give to the church.

Where do you get "Mystical" from? Are you a Mystic?

Where is the Biblical support for all the different sects and denominations that make up your definition of the church?

What denomination are you a part of?

Jude3b:
Dear Troutk13: The verses you quoted on the church don't say the same as your definition of the church. Even a Mormon could come up with a closer definition of the church, from what you have written...


Trout:
Hello Jude3b,

Do you think that my friends definition of "church" is correct and that the statement simply isn't footnoted properly?

Or do you disagree with his definition altogether?

If you disagree altogether, can you provide a definition of the "church" as it applies currently to Christianity.

I also believe that my friend chose the word "mystical" meaning that there is a spiritual or unseen bond which binds together those belonging to the "church".

Jude3b, are you LDS?

Jude3b:
I disagree with the definition. It does not in any way match the scripture verses that were quoted. The church can be defined from Scripture and does not need some fanciful man made defintion about how "mystical" it is!

First, the church is the Body of Christ: "And hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph. 1:22, 23).

The body of which Christ is the head is the church that he built; yea, "the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts. 20:28).
This is the only church taught in the New Testament. We can find out exactly what constitutes this church by reading the Bible statements about what constitutes the body of Christ, which only is the church. "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: so we (true Bible Christians), being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Rom. 12:4, 5)

The universal body of true believers constitutes the church of God for which Christ died. You can not have salvation, can not be a member of Christ, without thereby being a member of the body of Christ; for "now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him" (I Cor. 12:18). Inversely, it is impossible to be a member of the body of Christ without being a member of Christ himself.

The Religionists on theology web are all arguing about their personal idol - their personal Religion, Denomination, sect. But Christianity is none of those. True Christianity is not a religion, not an idol. It is a relationship between the living God and His People, His body, the church of God that He bought and paid for. And I for one, am sure glad that He did! Amen.

troutk13's friend:
The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches

Trout:
How does your definition differ from my friend', they seem to be identical, other than your verse references.

Jude3b:
Where do the verses in the Bible mention anything about denominations being part of the church of God, the body of Christ? Relgious organizations are not part of the Body of Christ. Only people, people who love God and have received Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior are part of the only true church - the body of Christ. That's God's church, not Romes church or the Baptists church, or the Mormons church!

Trout:
My friend said that the church is made up of all those from various denominations, not various denominations. He was referring to the people in the denomination not the denominations themselves. Jude3b, he said the exact same thing as you did.

Jude3b:
The Bible does not say that the church is made up of all those from various denominations. That is not a Biblical definition of the church of God, the body of Christ. That is an example of someone who promotes division in the body of Christ into sects and denominations.

Trout:
Wrong again Jude3b,

Membership in the body of Christ crosses denominational boundaries, that's the point of my friends definition, his definition actually promotes unity.

Where do you attend church Jude3b?


Jude3b:
Are you of Paul, are you of Cephas, are you a Baptist, a Roman Catholic, a Methodist? What are you?

Jesus gave us the standard and method of unity amongst Christians and it is contained in John chapter 17.

If you will read the chapter, you will notice that it does not include being divided into sects and denominations. God has a people and they are all one in Christ. Denominations hinder unity in the Body of Christ and if you are part of one, you also are causing division.

If you choose to be part of a denomination after reading and uderstanding the Will of God as revealed in the high priestly prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 17 - than you have made an "idol" out of your religion.

Based on your mystical definition and claiming that God supports denominationalism, it becomes obvious that you are either confused about this or that you do have your religion as your "idol!"

The statement that my friend made in fact unifies beyond the boundaries of denominationalism, something which you are in fact doing the opposite, you are dividing the body of Christ into those who go to church and those who don't.

You remind me of the LDS, they claim to be the only true church, the only church with God's authority, without denomination or division, you either are a member of the LDS church or you aren't.

Jude3b is trying to divide the body of Christ into followers of denominations instead of followers of Christ, troutk13's friend is establishing the fact that there are members of the body of Christ within many denominations.

The word of God makes it clear that we shouldn't forsake the gathering together, so if you don't gather together, you aren't obeying God's wishes.
Answer my question Jude3b; where do you go to church?

[box]



Jude3b:
Trout 13, you have asked me if I am LDS - No, never have been a member of that cult. I was a Roman Catholic until I became a Christian.

Apparently you think there can be no Christians in either of those organizations, how unifying.


Jude3b
You stated that I am trying to divide the Body of Christ into denominations. You need to take back that false statement. I am the most anti-denominational person you'll ever meet on this theology web site. I truly believe that denominations cause division and that is what keeps us as the body of Christ from effecting the world for Christ in a more meaniful way.

What you have made clear is that all those belonging to a denomination other than your non-denomination are "idol worshippers", I think running around calling your brethren an "idol worshipper" is dividing the body of Christ and making it less effective.


I believe what the Bible states - cover to cover - Genesis to Revolutions, as they say. A light attempt at humor!

So do the denominations you are trying to set yourself above.


"We are members one of another" (Eph. 4:25) - that despite denominationalism! What denomination are you a part of? I am not part of any denomination. I worship with other Christians at a non-denominational church. I sometimes visit various types of so-called Bible believing churches when I travel - in order to fellowship with brethren, but I cannot bring myself to go against Jesus and his desires - by joining a man-made religion (denomination)

Right, so the statement my friend made about the body of Christ remains a sound definition, in fact making known the unity that exists beyond the boundaries of denominationalism. You on the other hand are raising your non-denominationalism above the unity that we share, and in fact saying that if you are a member of a denomination you in fact aren't in God's will, you are an "idol worshipper".



You see: "One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matt. 23:8).

We are reconciled "unto God in one body by the cross" (Eph. 2:16).

"And there shall be one fold (flock), and one shepherd" (John 10:16) - not multitudes of confused sects and denominations (Babylon = Confusion).

Jesus prayed: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.... that they all may be one; as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee, they they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT thou hast sent me.... I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one" (John 17:17-23).

Please cite references by varying denominational authorities saying that the denominations understand those verses differently than you do. I think you'll find that there is quite a bit of unity among the brethren on those.


The apostle Paul, writing to the church at Corinth, mentions the strife and division over preachers manifested among certain brethren there and attributes it to the fact that they were "yet carnal" (I Cor. 3:1-5).

Kind of like the division you are trying to cause between your non-denominationalism and all other groups of Christians?


Jesus had prayed for the sanctification of his disciples, that they might be made perfect in one, in order that the world might believe and His prayer was answered and reached in the apostolic church. They were not Methodists and Lutherans and Roman Catholics and Baptists, etc..., they were Christians.
"And the multitude of them that believe were of one heart and one soul.... and great grace was upon them all" (Acts 4:31-33). "And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women" (chap. 5:14).

That is exactly what my friends definition is making clear, that membership in the body of Christ is what makes us one.



Even the idea of denominations, sects and division among Christians was foreign to the pure apostolic church of God, the body of Christ. Paul says to the Roman brethren (and I believe this is for us today, also my friend), "Mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine (of unity) which ye have learned, and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).

When you add words into the scripture you need to be careful that you aren't adding your private interpretation into the text, "contrary to the doctrine which you have learned" is what the text says. Tell me Jude3b, within the denominations you have railed against, "Methodists and Lutherans and Baptists" please demonstrate how they aren't in harmony with the "doctrine which you have learned"?


There is a false idea of so-called unity made prominent throughout Christendom, which is simply an attempt to bring together the professed followers of Christ. They take the lowest common denominator and say - we can have fellowhip - so your a Presbyterian and I'm a Catholic and I'm a Methodist - can't we just all get along. We all say that we believe in Jesus.

But in fact you know that you must be Jude3b's brand of non-denominationalism to not be an "idol worshipper", how unifying.


The Devil believes in Jesus and he's not saved!

what's your point there, are you saying that the faith held by all those in the varying denominations is the equivalent to that held by Satan?


True unity cannot be effected by agreeing not to disagree - while we all have our own little pet doctrines and denominatios that we put ahead of the Word of God.

True unity can be effected only by meeting the Bible conditions for unity: 1) We must be "in Christ," 2) We must be kept in his name, 3) We must receive the Word of God and keep it, 4) We must be sanctified wholly. That is what Jesus taught in John 17.

Trout 13, this may be the first time you have ever heard anyone discuss the idea of true Biblical unity and what the Bible says on the subject. Thats ok. I get the sense that you are a Christian and that you are trusting Christ alone for your salvation and not your denomination. If that is true, you might prayerfully consider what I have written. Imagine if you will, what the world would be like if all true Bible Christians - claimed Christ first and found their unity in Him alone. How we could impact this lost world for Christ! Imagine if we all would claim to be Christians and nothing else and ourselves as members of the body of Christ and nothing else and we would all be one in Christ Jesus! That is what Jesus wants (John chapter 17: 17 - 23). Amen.

Jude3b, in your haste to distance yourself from Roman Catholicism, you are in fact isolating yourself in non-denominationalism, Christ wants us to be unified, not seperated by man made boundaries, that's why it's important to understand my friend's statement about the body of Christ, " The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches".


What question of yours have I not answered and why are you afraid to reveal your denominational affiliation? You asked me and I answered you.
What would make you think that I'm afraid to disclose my denominational affiliation?

In a general sense, I don't have a beef with any of the Christian denominations, I think that there are members of the body of Christ in all of them, you on the other hand, have brought into question whether or not all members of denominations are idol worshippers, and the logical conclusion can be then drawn, that your non-denominationalism is the only correct branch of Christendom. Please explain otherwise.

[Leroy]

I'm a member in good standing of the First Naze-Method, Bapti-Costal, Seventh-Day-Orthodox, Luther-Yterian, Non-Denominational, Church of Our Lady of the Mind-Scientist.

:dizzy:Quit it trout, your killing me:lmbo:

[Jude3b]

Trout, you have not adressed the scripture verses that I shared. And you have failed to reveal you denominational affiliation. You seem to be good at arguing - but you fail the test of standing on the Word of God. It seems religious opinions are more to your liking. I've quoted the Word of God to share my beliefs - you've quoted opinions of men.

[Trout]

1) What is the Church?



Mormons believe:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church; all other churches are "wrong", all their creeds an "abomination", and all who profess them are "corrupt" (Joseph Smith?History 1:19, The Pearl of Great Price).

Christians believe:

The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches (Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:4-13).


TROUT:
I would tend to think that Joseph was mistaken, after all the version of the first vision that antedates the one you quoted describes a different set of events.

JOHN MORMON:
How so?

It would seem that the first vision has been through several transformations, (http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/which-vision.html)

Version 9. On May 24, 1844, Alexander Niebaur wrote the first vision in his journal as Joseph Smith told it to him. In this account, most of the details are the same as the official version, except that Joseph was not told that all of the Christian sects were wrong. Instead, he was specifically told that the Methodists were not God's people.

Version 8. In 1843, Joseph Smith gave an interview to the Pittsburgh Gazette, which was reprinted in the New York Observer on Sept. 23, 1843. In this version, Joseph said he was 14 years old, and there was no mention of any dark power trying to overcome him.

Version 7. This is the officially accepted version of the first vision, published in Times and Seasons on April 1, 1842.

Version 6. On March 1, 1842, the Times and Seasons published contents of a letter written by Joseph Smith to John Wentworth. This was published one full month before the account that is accepted as the official version today. In this one, Joseph Smith did not give his age. He mentioned no evil power overcoming him, and he said two personages visited him, though he never identifies them. It is significant that he did not mention the evil power that played so prominently in the story and also that he omitted that the personages visiting him were supposedly God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Version 5. In 1841, Joseph Smith's brother William Smith told the story to James Murdock. This account is published in A New Witness For Christ In America (2:414-415). This account lists Joseph as being 17 years old when he received the vision, and rather than God and Jesus appearing to him, William states that it was only a "glorious angel." Admittedly, this account is third hand, and William could certainly have been mistaken about Joseph's age. But it is not likely that he would forget that God Himself and Jesus Christ visited his brother, unless he was never told that to begin with.

Usually we dismiss third-hand accounts in our research, believing them to usually be very unreliable. However, this account is substantiated by other sources. For example, in the early LDS publication Times and Seasons for December 15, 1840 (Vol.2 pg. 241), Oliver Cowdery stated specifically that Joseph Smith, Jr. was 17 at the time of the first vision - specifically placing the year of the vision in 1823. And in at least seven other places in the Journal of Discourses, early LDS leaders shared that it was only an unidentified angel that visited Joseph, not God and Jesus (2:171, 196, 197; 10:127; 13:78, 324; 20:167).

Brigham Young even stated specifically that the Lord did not visit young Joseph. In reference to this vision he said "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven...But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun...and informed him that he should not join any of the religions of the day, for they were all wrong;..." (Journal of Discourses 2:171).

William Smith's account was also printed in part in the RLDS Church publication The Saints Herald (Vol. 31 No. 40, page 643, 6/8/1884). No correction or retraction of the information published there was ever printed. We must keep in mind that both the LDS and RLDS (now known as the Community of Christ) share the same history for the first several years of Mormonism's existence. Contradictions regarding Smith's Vision would affect the credibility of both groups.

Finally, this account is also worthy of special consideration because it was first brought to light by a Mormon researcher from the LDS Church-owned Brigham Young University. As mentioned earlier, Paul Cheesman wrote his master's thesis in 1965 entitled "An Analysis of the Accounts Relating Joseph Smith's Early Visions." In that study he discusses this differing account of the first vision in detail. It was subsequently discussed by LDS scholars in the publication Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought for Autumn 1966. None of these researchers and scholars dismissed the account as mere gossip; rather they discussed it as a valid account worthy of consideration. There is no reason, then, for us not to consider it as well.

Version 4. In 1837, William Appleby recorded the vision story as given by Orson Pratt in his diary. In this version, the revival was not until 1822, Joseph was 17 again, and the visitors were not God and Jesus but beings who identified themselves only as angels who claimed to have forgiven Joseph's sins. Again, this is a third-hand account, but the most important details of the vision are left out or completely different.

The differing details of this vision account have been verified by other statements of LDS leaders throughout the early years of the LDS Church. George A. Smith and Orson Hyde both stated that Joseph was visited not by God but by angels (Journal of Discourses 6:335; 12:334). This corroborative information makes this third-hand account worthy of our consideration. In addition, the discourses and statements of the early LDS apostles and prophets, as published in many books by the LDS Church, were mainly recorded from the diaries and journals of the early Mormons. The LDS Church considers these third-hand accounts to be valid enough to accept for "inspirational" material. It would be inconsistent for the Mormons to accept only those accounts that support their teachings and to disregard those accounts with which they disagree. Since Orson Pratt was a first-hand witness to the early events of Mormonism and to the life of Joseph Smith, Jr., his version of the events are of significant importance for consideration – even when recorded in a listener's journal.

Version 3. In 1835, Joseph Smith dictated his own account of the first vision for his personal diary. There is some question among scholars, even those who are LDS, as to who the scribe was for this part of the diary. Some believe it was Warren Parrish, but others believe it was Warren Cowdery. Regardless of which man physically wrote the account, the fact is that it appears in the official diary of the Prophet, and this journal entry is accepted as accurate and valid. In this account, which was first published in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (VI, No.1, pg. 87), the evil power is mentioned for the very first time. In all previous published accounts (listed below), no evil power was ever mentioned by Joseph. Also, he does not claim that the messengers were God and Jesus, just that many angels visited him. That seems to be a very curious omission.

Version 2. In February 1835, the LDS publication Messenger and Advocate recorded the account of the vision that Joseph Smith gave to Oliver Cowdery. In this account, Joseph was 17 years old, the revival is in 1823, and no mention is made of James 1:5. Instead, Joseph claimed he had been wondering if there was a God and if his sins could be forgiven. His only reason for praying was to ask if God did exist. After "11 or 12 hours" in prayer, he was visited by "a messenger from God" who forgave Joseph's sins. While this vision is given in the Messenger and Advocate as the first vision of Joseph Smith, this story was later revised and published as a second vision from the angel Moroni preparatory to giving Joseph Smith the golden plates.

It should be noted that this account was printed not only in an LDS publication but also during the lifetime of Joseph Smith. No statements by Joseph against the accuracy of this account have been found, indicating his approval of the information given. It was also a second-hand account given by Oliver Cowdery, a witness to many of the key events in LDS history. The same account was also copied unchanged into Joseph Smith's Manuscript History of the Church and subsequently into the LDS publication Times and Seasons. Since it was copied into so many LDS publications and records without any changes, the account must have been considered accurate and valid to Joseph Smith at that time. This adds quite a bit of significance to the differing details of this version.

Version 1. The earliest known account of the first vision was written in 1831-32 in Joseph Smith's own handwriting. This was the version made public by Paul Cheesman in 1965, published later that same year by Jerald and Sandra Tanner in Joseph Smith's Strange Account of the First Vision. This account had been in the hands of LDS leaders for over 130 years, hidden away in their vaults – presumably because it differs so greatly from the official version. In this account, Smith claimed to be 16 years old and that he already knew that all churches were wrong from reading the Bible. Joseph sought forgiveness, and it was Jesus alone who visited him and forgave his sins.

We are left, then, with various differing stories of this important event. Joseph never did tell "but one story" of the first vision; he told several, as already shown by the various published statements of early LDS leaders. There is no way to tell, then, if any of the details of the vision really happened. Was it one angel or several who visited Joseph? What was the identity of the heavenly visitor to Joseph – Jesus and God, Jesus alone, Peter (JD 6:29), Nephi (Times & Seasons 3:753; 1851 PoGP, pg.41; Millennial Star 3:53, 71), or Moroni?

Was he 14, 15, 16 or 17 years old when it happened? Was his reason for praying to get forgiveness, to determine if there was a God or to find out which religion was correct? Was he overcome by a dark and evil power or wasn't he?

All these variations – particularly in the accounts that came directly from Joseph Smith himself – lead us to the inevitable conclusion that the official version of Joseph Smith's "first vision" is, at best, unreliable. Though unproveable, Joseph may have had some kind of a vision in his younger years that he expanded upon and/or changed the details of each time he re-told it. Eventually the story was developed into the heart-rending official version that the LDS Church publishes today as fact, though it clearly is not.






Also John, do you have a fundamental disagreement with the difference outlined by my friend in statement 1?

[John Powell]

POWELL:
Why is this bold italics without me asking for it?

TROUT:
. . .
All these variations – particularly in the accounts that came directly from Joseph Smith himself – lead us to the inevitable conclusion that the official version of Joseph Smith's "first vision" is, at best, unreliable. Though unproveable, Joseph may have had some kind of a vision in his younger years that he expanded upon and/or changed the details of each time he re-told it. Eventually the story was developed into the heart-rending official version that the LDS Church publishes today as fact, though it clearly is not.


POWELL:
Perhaps you should quote the actual versions of the First Vision with a repost of your claims about them. I suspect that you have concluded some things about them without sufficient justification.

TROUT'S FRIEND:
1) What is the Church?

Mormons believe:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church; all other churches are "wrong", all their creeds an "abomination", and all who profess them are "corrupt" (Joseph Smith?History 1:19, The Pearl of Great Price).

Christians believe:

The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches (Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:4-13).

TROUT:
Also John, do you have a fundamental disagreement with the difference outlined by my friend in statement 1?


POWELL:
Well, let's see.

Joseph Smith History 1, Pearl of Great Price
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”


POWELL:
What your friend wrote is pretty close to the Mormon position.

As a believer, I understood these words in JSH 1:19 to mean that each of the other churches was unacceptably wrong, not that each church was entirely wrong, with no truth whatsoever. I understood the "professors" not to be referring to anyone who professed belief in the other churches (such as a child), but specifically referring to the leaders of the other churches who should have known that what they were preaching was unBiblical.

Mormons believe that other religions have parts of the truth, that Mormons have the "fulness of the Gospel" all the necessary stuff, but that even Mormons don't know all the less important stuff, such as the mysteries. Some things that will be more important in the future are yet to be revealed or won't be learned until in the afterlife.

John Powell

[Trout]

POWELL:
Perhaps you should quote the actual versions of the First Vision with a repost of your claims about them. I suspect that you have concluded some things about them without sufficient justification. You could be right.

Joseph Smith penned this version of the first vision found here (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/jshandwriting.htm) I believe it was written in 1832.


marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath thewise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of firelight above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could reioice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart about that time my mother and but after many days

This version would seem to square with Joseph's actions in joining the Baptist church and attempting admission into another denomination. There is no explicit instruction given prohibiting his joining a Christian denomination.

In the version you quoted:

Joseph Smith History 1, Pearl of Great Price
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”


One of the major points of this version seems to be the explicit instruction not to join any of the Christian denominations, which doesn't seem to square with Joseph's actions.

In my opinion, one reason for the change in the first vision story is to force those choosing Mormonism to break completly away from mainstream Christianity, the handwritten version left open the possibility that someone could add Joseph's new religion to their own views. This would be detrimental to Joseph's attempt at completly controlling those following him.

trout

[John Powell]

TROUT:
This version would seem to square with Joseph's actions in joining the Baptist church and attempting admission into another denomination. There is no explicit instruction given prohibiting his joining a Christian denomination.


JOHN MORMON:
Assuming the citation is authentic, it's pretty clear that if Joseph does join a church of his day then he'll be joining one that has turned aside from the true Gospel and one that is not keeping the commandments of God.

". . . and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments . . ." ---Joseph Smith 1832.

TROUT:
In the version you quoted:

. . . Joseph Smith History 1:19, Pearl of Great Price . . .

One of the major points of this version seems to be the explicit instruction not to join any of the Christian denominations, which doesn't seem to square with Joseph's actions.


JOHN MORMON:
You're raising the question as to whether Joseph joined the Baptist church in the way he was prohibited from doing so. I have not agreed to that yet. Where did Joseph ever admit to doing this? If some people wanting to discredit the Prophet claimed it then I'm not inclined to trust their claim without reliable corroboration.

POWELL:
Basically, that means that if it's something seriously uncomplimentary then unless Mormons in good standing claimed it or there's undeniable nonMormon documentation then Mormons feel little obligation to believe it.

TROUT:
In my opinion, one reason for the change in the first vision story is to force those choosing Mormonism to break completly away from mainstream Christianity, the handwritten version left open the possibility that someone could add Joseph's new religion to their own views. This would be detrimental to Joseph's attempt at completly controlling those following him.


JOHN MORMON:
Your opinion is noted.

POWELL:
Perhaps Joseph didn't consider making his own church until later. Under different circumstances (say if his alleged vision were accepted by one of the existing churches) then Joseph might have become a leader in their sect and perhaps later broken away to form his own religion.

John Powell

[Trout]

JOHN MORMON:
Assuming the citation is authentic, it's pretty clear that if Joseph does join a church of his day then he'll be joining one that has turned aside from the true Gospel and one that is not keeping the commandments of God.

". . . and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments . . ." ---Joseph Smith 1832. Certainly implied in the statement is the complete corruption of the Christian denominations, but it isn't expressed.

If it's true that Joseph joined the Baptist Church and attempted to join the Methodist church, what does that say of the instructions he received in the first vision?



JOHN MORMON:
You're raising the question as to whether Joseph joined the Baptist church in the way he was prohibited from doing so. I have not agreed to that yet. Where did Joseph ever admit to doing this? If some people wanting to discredit the Prophet claimed it then I'm not inclined to trust their claim without reliable corroboration. I haven't found in the writings of Joseph Smith where he speaks of his joining the Baptist Church, that's not to say an admission doesn't exist, but I'm sure after he issued the revamped first vision, his joining of the Baptist Church, if it happened, would be something he would want to keep quiet. Don't you agree?

trout

EDIT TO ADD

My friend has revised statement number 1 to read:

What is the church?

Christians believe

The one true Church is the invisible, spiritual, and universal Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or visible churches. Unity in the Church does not demand complete uniformity in its various manifestations. God loves diversity. Yet the Church’s unity is in Christ, who is the vine. People in various denominations who are committed to the Vine are the branches; no one particular manifestation of the Church is the vine (Matthew 16:18; John 15:5; Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:1-13).

Perhaps Jude3b will aprove of this re-write?

[Jude3b]

Certainly implied in the statement is the complete corruption of the Christian denominations, but it isn't expressed.

If it's true that Joseph joined the Baptist Church and attempted to join the Methodist church, what does that say of the instructions he received in the first vision?


I haven't found in the writings of Joseph Smith where he speaks of his joining the Baptist Church, that's not to say an admission doesn't exist, but I'm sure after he issued the revamped first vision, his joining of the Baptist Church, if it happened, would be something he would want to keep quiet. Don't you agree?

trout

EDIT TO ADD

My friend has revised statement number 1 to read:

What is the church?

Christians believe

The one true Church is the invisible, spiritual, and universal Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or visible churches. Unity in the Church does not demand complete uniformity in its various manifestations. God loves diversity. Yet the Church’s unity is in Christ, who is the vine. People in various denominations who are committed to the Vine are the branches; no one particular manifestation of the Church is the vine (Matthew 16:18; John 15:5; Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:1-13).

Perhaps Jude3b will aprove of this re-write?

Your definition is better.

But please consider this: the underlying foundation of true unity in the body of Christ, must be relationship. Think of the human family for example. There may be many childen in the family, differing in sex, age, and intellectual development; still there exists a real standard of unity. The son in college never thinks of judging his relationship with his brother in the primary school or with his sister in the cradle by an intellectual standard. The tie that binds them together is invisible; it is in no sense proportioned by their respective degrees of development, but has its basis in blood-relationship. Like my wife often reminds me, "blood is thicker" and thats why relatives are so important to us.

But while this is the primary basis of union still development is the law of normal humanity; therefore all the members of the family develop in intellectual capacity and learn the great facts of truth surrounding them, they will also become one in this respect, so far as the ability of each one will allow. So also in the spiritual relationship. We are "all one in Christ Jesus." But what does it mean to be in Christ? First of all, it means to be "born again," for without this experience we are not Christians at all and "can not see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Denominations have nothing to do with this issue.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). Why? Is it because we are Presbyterian or Roman Catholic or Methodist? No, no way! It is because true Christians have been "made free from the law of sin and death" (verse 2). To be in Christ, then, signifies to be born of God and to have our sins removed by his grace.

By the spiritual birth we enter the spiritual family (Acts 2:47), where we possess the divine life which flows in all its members, and are thus "all one in Christ Jesus" by virtue of a spiritual blood-relationship.

As Christians we must recognize the dangers of Ecumenism. Ecumenism is a smokescreen to bring all Christians ("so-called") back under the Vatican and stamp out religious freedom.

[Sparko]

A friend of mine wrote this, and uses it as a part of his ministry directed toward the LDS folks, the article is here (http://www.mormoninfo.org/home/differences.asp):


1) What is the Church?



Mormons believe:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church; all other churches are "wrong", all their creeds an "abomination", and all who profess them are "corrupt" (Joseph Smith?History 1:19, The Pearl of Great Price).

Christians believe:

The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches (Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:4-13).


2) Are there other Gods?



Mormons believe:

There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and worthy Mormons may become gods there some day. On those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7; Abraham 4:1, The Pearl of Great Price; and Gospel Principles, 290).

Christians believe:

There is only one God who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; and John 1:1-3).


3) About the Trinity:



Mormons believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods, who are one in purpose and nature, but not in a Being they share eternally (Ibid.).

Christians believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, who are eternally one in purpose, nature, and Being (Ibid.; Matthew 3:16; 4:10; and 28:16-19).


4) Are men and God the same nature or species?



Mormons believe:

The nature of these gods is identical to the nature of man, and as such these humans had to become gods; they haven?t always been gods (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345; Thomas C. Romney, The Life of Lorenzo Snow, 46; and Doctrine and Covenants 130:22).

Christians believe:

God has His own unique nature that man, a created being by definition cannot ever have. God is God by nature, and not by obtainment (Psalms 90:2; Hosea 11:9; Acts 14:15; Galatians 4:8; and 2 Peter 1:3-4).


5) Is God married?



Mormons believe:

God the Father has at least one wife by which we on this world were all literally born as spirit children prior to taking on our tangible bodies of flesh and bones via our mortal parents (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 516-7; and Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, 50).

Christians believe:

Since God is not a man by nature it is impossible for Him as God to even have a wife. It is just as impossible for God to lie. Further, God does not even have a body that He would need to produce us. Marriage requires partiality, receiving counsel from the other partner, and compromise. But God cannot do these either. Finally, He does not need anything, let alone a wife, to become God (Ibid.; 1 Kings 8:27; and Hebrews 6:18).


6) Does the Father have a Father?



Mormons believe:

God the Father had a Father whom He followed as Jesus had followed Him in order to become a god (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373).

Christians believe:

There is no other God before God. He is not so weak that He needed to serve and receive counsel from some other God in order to become God; He always was God (Ps. 90:2; Isa. 40:12-20; and Isa. 43:10).


7) Is there anything that the Father did not create?



Mormons believe:

Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Ibid.; and Doctrine and Covenants 93:29; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:21-24).

Christians believe:

There is only one Being who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; John 1:1-3; and Acts 17:28).


8) Is there anything that the Son did not create?



Mormons believe:

Jesus being the literal son of exalted human gods obviously did not create all things either. That is why He is referred to as Lucifer?s as well as our elder brother in the pre-earth life (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel through the Ages, 15).

Christians believe:

Jesus existed prior to becoming man as "the only begotten God" (John 1:18, New American Standard). As such, He created everything that was ever created from the very beginning (John 1:1-3). To relativize this creation to only concerning the things of this world devalues and cheapens Jesus, who has not only the nature of man (1 Timothy 2:5), but also the nature of "God over all blessed forever" (Romans 9:5).


9) Does the Son receive the same worship as the Father?



Mormons believe:

Jesus is not worshipped equally with the Father, since Jesus is not our begetter. Jesus is not even directly prayed to. Prayer is directed only to the Father in the name of Jesus (BYU Devotional [March 2, 1982], 17, 19, and 20).

Christians believe:

Since Jesus is God by nature, He is worshipped equally with the Father. Jesus receives both worship and prayer, and we are commanded to do so (Mt. 4:10; 28:16-19; Jn. 5:18-23; 14:14 [NAS]; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2; and 1 Jn. 5:13-15).

10) What role do good works play with our standing before God?



Mormons believe:

Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 5:27-28; 11:37; 34:33-35; Moroni 10:32; Doctrine and Covenants 42:18; 58:43; 82:7; 2nd Article of Faith; and Gospel Principles, 75-77).

Christians believe:

Salvation is a free gift that must be received through faith alone, and this automatically is demonstrated by the overall good life produced by it (Romans 4:5; 11:6; Galatians 3:11, 23-26; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 Jn. 5:10-13).

Copyrighted article quoted with permission www.mormoninfo.org (http://www.mormoninfo.org)

:mummy:

[Bill the Cat]

:hehe:

[wonbyone]

Thanks Sparko!!! I've been wanting to bring back to life some of these old post to see what the present mormons had to say and I have to say this thread is great!

[OtherCheek]

A friend of mine wrote this, and uses it as a part of his ministry directed toward the LDS folks, the article is here (http://www.mormoninfo.org/home/differences.asp):


1) What is the Church?



Mormons believe:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church; all other churches are "wrong", all their creeds an "abomination", and all who profess them are "corrupt" (Joseph Smith?History 1:19, The Pearl of Great Price).

Christians believe:

The one true Church is the mystical, spiritual Body of Christ made up of all those from various denominations or churches (Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:4-13).


2) Are there other Gods?



Mormons believe:

There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and worthy Mormons may become gods there some day. On those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7; Abraham 4:1, The Pearl of Great Price; and Gospel Principles, 290).

Christians believe:

There is only one God who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; and John 1:1-3).


3) About the Trinity:



Mormons believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods, who are one in purpose and nature, but not in a Being they share eternally (Ibid.).

Christians believe:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, who are eternally one in purpose, nature, and Being (Ibid.; Matthew 3:16; 4:10; and 28:16-19).


4) Are men and God the same nature or species?



Mormons believe:

The nature of these gods is identical to the nature of man, and as such these humans had to become gods; they haven?t always been gods (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345; Thomas C. Romney, The Life of Lorenzo Snow, 46; and Doctrine and Covenants 130:22).

Christians believe:

God has His own unique nature that man, a created being by definition cannot ever have. God is God by nature, and not by obtainment (Psalms 90:2; Hosea 11:9; Acts 14:15; Galatians 4:8; and 2 Peter 1:3-4).


5) Is God married?



Mormons believe:

God the Father has at least one wife by which we on this world were all literally born as spirit children prior to taking on our tangible bodies of flesh and bones via our mortal parents (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 516-7; and Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, 50).

Christians believe:

Since God is not a man by nature it is impossible for Him as God to even have a wife. It is just as impossible for God to lie. Further, God does not even have a body that He would need to produce us. Marriage requires partiality, receiving counsel from the other partner, and compromise. But God cannot do these either. Finally, He does not need anything, let alone a wife, to become God (Ibid.; 1 Kings 8:27; and Hebrews 6:18).


6) Does the Father have a Father?



Mormons believe:

God the Father had a Father whom He followed as Jesus had followed Him in order to become a god (Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373).

Christians believe:

There is no other God before God. He is not so weak that He needed to serve and receive counsel from some other God in order to become God; He always was God (Ps. 90:2; Isa. 40:12-20; and Isa. 43:10).


7) Is there anything that the Father did not create?



Mormons believe:

Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Ibid.; and Doctrine and Covenants 93:29; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:21-24).

Christians believe:

There is only one Being who created and rules over everything in existence. To think that God did not create something like some other world is to simply devalue and weaken God (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 40:12-20; 43:10; 44:6-8 and 24; John 1:1-3; and Acts 17:28).


8) Is there anything that the Son did not create?



Mormons believe:

Jesus being the literal son of exalted human gods obviously did not create all things either. That is why He is referred to as Lucifer?s as well as our elder brother in the pre-earth life (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel through the Ages, 15).

Christians believe:

Jesus existed prior to becoming man as "the only begotten God" (John 1:18, New American Standard). As such, He created everything that was ever created from the very beginning (John 1:1-3). To relativize this creation to only concerning the things of this world devalues and cheapens Jesus, who has not only the nature of man (1 Timothy 2:5), but also the nature of "God over all blessed forever" (Romans 9:5).


9) Does the Son receive the same worship as the Father?



Mormons believe:

Jesus is not worshipped equally with the Father, since Jesus is not our begetter. Jesus is not even directly prayed to. Prayer is directed only to the Father in the name of Jesus (BYU Devotional [March 2, 1982], 17, 19, and 20).

Christians believe:

Since Jesus is God by nature, He is worshipped equally with the Father. Jesus receives both worship and prayer, and we are commanded to do so (Mt. 4:10; 28:16-19; Jn. 5:18-23; 14:14 [NAS]; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2; and 1 Jn. 5:13-15).

10) What role do good works play with our standing before God?



Mormons believe:

Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 5:27-28; 11:37; 34:33-35; Moroni 10:32; Doctrine and Covenants 42:18; 58:43; 82:7; 2nd Article of Faith; and Gospel Principles, 75-77).

Christians believe:

Salvation is a free gift that must be received through faith alone, and this automatically is demonstrated by the overall good life produced by it (Romans 4:5; 11:6; Galatians 3:11, 23-26; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 Jn. 5:10-13).

Copyrighted article quoted with permission www.mormoninfo.org

These bullet items seem like a pretty fair summary of some of our differences. I think the author took a pretty fair-handed approach. Much more fair than I've seen others try to use.

We could list other differences as well:

1. LDS doctrine teaches that God prepared a way for all to hear the gospel. (Salvation for the dead)

2. LDS doctrine teaches the essentiality of gospel ordinances.

3. LDS belief in the salvation of little children.

4. Gathering of Israel in the last days.

5. Belief in living prophets

6. Belief in a pre-mortal existence

7. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

8. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

9. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

10.We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

11.We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Interesting how he chose those 10 in particular, when he could have chosen from a wide range of other theological differences.

Yet, in all those differences, we all follow the basic teachings of Christ included in the Bible.

[Bill the Cat]

Yet, in all those differences, we all follow the basic teachings of Christ included in the Bible.

:lol::lol::lol:

Sure ya do...

[nrajeff]

Bill agrees! Cool!

[Bill the Cat]

:ahem: